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Former U.K. Premier Margaret Thatcher Dies  
User currently offlineandrej From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6357 times:

According to Bloomberg News.

-> apparently she had a stroke this morning.

Was 87 years old. End of an era.

[Edited 2013-04-08 04:59:20]

173 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6350 times:

Yes link here :

Baroness Thatcher has died at the age of 87 after suffering a stroke, her spokesman Lord Bell has announced.

http://news.sky.com/story/1075292/margaret-thatcher-dies-after-stroke

RIP. Whether you loved her or hated her she was a strong politician.


User currently offlineidealstandard From France, joined Apr 2009, 410 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6331 times:

I hated her politics but she was an amazing woman, RIP.

User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

R.I.P. Mags  

By far the best post war PM the UK has had. My god how we could do with someone like her again right now.

Haters gonna hate.


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6294 times:

For me, the greatest PM since Churchill, and certainly had more balls than any of them since Churchill.



[Edited 2013-04-08 06:33:10 by ManuCH]


To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineMCO2BRS From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 542 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 5):
For me, the greatest PM since Churchill, and certainly had more balls than any of them since Churchill.

I don't agree with most of what she did, but she certainly had a bigger pair off balls than any PM before or since (Churchill notwithstanding).

Political leaders the world over could learn a lesson or two from her legacy, thats for sure.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 5):
For me, the greatest PM since Churchill, and certainly had more balls than any of them since Churchill.

Yes have to agree . She certainly had balls something alot of politicians lack these days. Her defining moment was the Falkland Islands and for that she will always have my respect.

Of course here in Ireland there will be little love lost for her but they have their own issues as she was not giving into Irish terrorists ( as she saw them ) over the time she was in power.

Everyone will have their own views on her period in office and of course that sad departure but I hope she gets the respect she deserves from those of us who recognised her achievements.


User currently offlineseansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

I had the pleasure of meeting Margaret Thatcher a couple of years ago. The nicest politician I've met. She wasn't interested in talking to the other politicians but rather the young people in the room.

Tonight I'll be having a drink in her memory.


User currently offlinebaguy From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 4):
For me, the greatest PM since Churchill, and certainly had more balls than any of them since Churchill.

   I totally agree - but whatever one's beliefs are, she had more backbone than anyone since, and was a fantastic orator - to have the courage of one's convictions in the manner that she did was truly remarkable. Rest in peace Maggie - truly an Iron Lady


User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6217 times:

Rust in peace,

Iron Lady.



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39906 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6202 times:

She was a great leader and she will be missed.

R.I.P. Margaret Thatcher.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6187 times:

Best Maggie moment for me.

Beats the poor guy up with his own argument.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
Irish terrorists ( as she saw them )

What else could you call them?

R.I.P to a very tough no nonsense politician, the likes of which we could do with today, rather than the PC twats that appear to be our lot now-a-days.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2112 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6166 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 11):
Rust in peace,

Iron Lady.

*shakes fist* I just wanted to post that.  


Have you heard that even though she's only been in hell for one hour, she's already shut down three furnances?



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6131 times:

Rest in peace, I disagree with most of her policies but at least she had strong willpower and truly did her best to do things like she believed, something that politicians lack nowadays.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinederekf From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 912 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6027 times:

Yes she was strong-willed but that's why so many disastrous policies were implemented unchallenged. I'm sorry she died but I'm sorry also for the legacy she left behind. 20 years after she left power, it looks like Britain will never recover from her policies.


Whatever.......
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6009 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
What else could you call them?

Well I guess one persons freedom fighter is another persons terrorist and where I live she would not have been their favourite person to put it mildly. Still like any resonsable person I would hope that most educated people would not speak ill of the dead and depsite not agreeing with her policies have some respect.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5948 times:

Quoting derekf (Reply 15):
20 years after she left power, it looks like Britain will never recover from her policies.

Nothing to do with Thatcher. Labour systematically destroyed the UK's economy single handedly. The UK was in very good shape when she and Major left office.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5922 times:

There is no doubting her achievements as a person and as Prime Minister. I recall her remark in opposing feminists, saying that she didn't get to where she was by quotas. Yet, oddly, when I met her in High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire during a by-election following the sad passing of the Sir John Hall, MP, she appeared smaller than I had expected. Oh, the personality and vigour was there and shone through, but for some reason I had expected her to be somehow bigger.

As others have remarked, she had much courage and determination that seems lacking in many politicians. Resolute was the word that became her motto, yet ultimately it was that resoluteness, or a seeming unwillingness to listen to her own party, that brought her down.

It is sometimes said that you can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep. Mrs T used to enjoy the odd cup of tea with a man that she went on to describe as "A champion of the free world" - Augusto José Ramón Pinochet Ugarte. If a man who bathed a country in blood, murdering or disappearing his opponents can be a champion of the free world, it tells us a lot about Thatcher's view on freedom.

It is sad that in later life she suffered dementia. The confusion, the loss of sense of time, moments of clarity punctuating a worsening grasp and understanding of what is real and current must have been very distressing to her and to her family witnessing it. Her suffering is over. My sympathy and condolences to her family.

[Edited 2013-04-08 07:30:46]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5895 times:

No doubt Thatcher was a towering leader for the times, one can't discount her contribution to the fall of the Iron Curtain. In the final analysis she was undone by her own party, unable to convince of her view regarding what she saw as the equality of the poll tax to pay for basic services, rather than unseated by the electorate directly.

I remember flying to Europe one night while Thatcher was still in power, transiting via London the next morning while her fate was in question, then by the time I landed in continental Europe, John Major had been made PM. I wasn't used to politicians moving around that quickly.

BBC News has gone live on the web with TV coverage of the story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22066982

[Edited 2013-04-08 07:34:36]


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7712 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5827 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
as she was not giving into Irish terrorists ( as she saw them )

Mate, you know I have a lot of respect for you, but really? I think everyone who ever heard of IRA bombings, shootings, kidnappings, quite rightly saw them as terrorists. I heard an IRA bomb go off in Bishopsgate when I was a kid, and saw the buildings a couple of days later. As a kid, it scared me shitless to think that could happen at any time. Terrorists they certainly were.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
R.I.P to a very tough no nonsense politician, the likes of which we could do with today, rather than the PC twats that appear to be our lot now-a-days.

That aspect of her leadership I have huge admiration for. Massive, in fact. Policies are a different matter, but the current shower, and those who came before them, are nothing in comparison to her.

Little edit: I once sang for Margeret Thatcher at a function (amongst many other famous types over a few years as a kid). Anyone else here met her?  biggrin 

[Edited 2013-04-08 08:04:50]


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 863 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5774 times:

Quoting andrej (Thread starter):
End of an era.

Exactly how I'd put it, too.

RIP Baroness Thatcher

[Edited 2013-04-08 08:19:30]


Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5723 times:

Very strong woman. It's a testament to her political influence that politicians are still, to this day, scrambling to be like Thatcher.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 17):
Nothing to do with Thatcher. Labour systematically destroyed the UK's economy single handedly. The UK was in very good shape when she and Major left office.

Not quite true... Thatcher's policies arguably left us far too dependant on financial services, thanks to an almost complete eradication of industry in the north (for which she is still hated) and there wasn't a huge deal Labour could do about that except for create a system where those financial services would flourish. We all know how that ended up, of course, but it'd be difficult / impossible to argue that the same would not have happened had Thatcherite tories remained in power up until the recession. Honestly, all new Labour did was continue her policies.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinebaguy From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5708 times:

I think this photo just about sums her up best:



RIP Maggie

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 24):
Honestly, all new Labour did was continue her policies.

Which says just as much about her as anything else - Roy Hattersley remarked on R4 earlier that she was important in politics because she really did transform the politics of the UK - whether or not you think that is a good thing aside, that is the real achievement.


User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5702 times:

I read in a tweet that Thatcher actually called Nelson Mandela a terrorist. Is that true ? What was the context in which she said that ?


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5882 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 24):
Not quite true... Thatcher's policies arguably left us far too dependant on financial services, thanks to an almost complete eradication of industry in the north

So goes the myth but i'd say a more accurate assessment would be that Labour's naive fiscal and monetary policy destroyed the UK's competitiveness and thus balance of trade and with it the rest of the manufacturing industry.

(UK balance of trade goods/services/total)

http://www.guidance-research.org/workgroups/editorialWG/ft-2008/arts/data-charts/artsdc/economic1

[Edited 2013-04-08 08:55:36]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

I suspect like many of my generation, I have starkly mixed feelings about Thatcher.
Not that her death today is a huge surprise, her decline in recent years well documented.

As the first female British PM her place in history was assured from the start.
There is no doubt that her initial appeal after the awful 1970's, was widespread.
There is also no doubt that the power of the Trade Unions was by 1979, hugely excessive.
Even the leaders of the big unions had no control over the militants.
They effectively brought down a Labour Government. As well as Heath's Tories.

One of the things she did do was a huge deregulation of the the financial services, the question now I think, of this part of her legacy, is has the power of the unions, the disregard for fellow workers, for the economy, for the country, just their own narrow, selfish ends, been replaced by those of the financial sector who let's not forget, have done in a much shorter time at least as much damage as the union excesses of the 1960's-70's?
Meet the new Bogeymen.
Not so different from the old ones.

Then the Monetarism.
Whisper it, but a milder form of that economic doctrine was already being practiced by the preceding Callaghan government.
However, under her it became an ideology.
While many new jobs, many new opportunities, would arise in the 1980's, the fact is that large chunks of this country were seemingly left to rot.
Without the windfall of North Sea Oil, she would not have lasted.

She could be brave, innovative and also stubborn and narrow minded.
Maggie did enhance the UK on the world stage, was respected even by those with very different politics abroad.
(It was a Soviet newspaper who called her first, 'The Iron Lady')

After her 3rd election victory (helped much by there now being three centre left opposition parties in the 1980's rather than two), even her supporters admit that she became obstinate to the point of irrationality.
Which is why her party had to ditch her, even if they suffered a sort of guilt ridden nervous breakdown for the next 15 years.
Her successor John Major, was often under-minded by her 'backseat driving'.

As for that war, her government's collective incompetence allowed that to happen, her predecessor had in 1977 forestalled a similar event with a small but effective naval deployment.
I don't see her in this respect as a crass war monger, that war was a huge risk after all.

For me, I rate PM Clem Attlee (who inherited a far worse economic situation) as the best post war PM.
However, if there are two PM's who really did change things radically and set the agenda for at least the next 30 years, it's Clem and Maggie. Not much else they had in common!

While I don't think Salmond will win next year, if Scotland does go independent, a large part of the blame will have to be laid at Thatcher.
With Scotland, she seemed almost to delight in upsetting them to an almost crass extent.
By 1992, no Tory MP's left in Scotland. They'd had a majority there 25 year before.

Finally, while she deserves a good send off, there should not be a state one. Churchill got one but his (genuine) wartime Coalition, what he did in those darkest days, marks him as almost then a joint Head Of State with the King.

[Edited 2013-04-08 09:00:19]

[Edited 2013-04-08 09:27:54]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5901 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):
Mate, you know I have a lot of respect for you, but really? I think everyone who ever heard of IRA bombings, shootings, kidnappings, quite rightly saw them as terrorists. I heard an IRA bomb go off in Bishopsgate when I was a kid, and saw the buildings a couple of days later. As a kid, it scared me shitless to think that could happen at any time. Terrorists they certainly were.

I think you mis understood. Plenty of people here in Ireland didnt like her and thats putting it midly and I grew up in London remember so know exactly how it was. I missed the Harrods bomb by an hour because my Dad was working late and another at Victoria train station. On the flip side having lived in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland you can understand why in alot of peoples minds people saw certain groups as freedom fighters. Its not my view although the British have alot to answer for during the troubles so you need to understand the bigger picture and not living here and being amongst the people who suffered it would be hard to understand. Margaret Thatcher was a figure head during the troubles and its a shame this was going on during her time in power. Had it have been another time I think alot of Irish would have had a neutral or different view of her.

My Irish friends and colleagues do find it hard to understand my respect for Margaret Thatcher and my response is always the same. ''She was good for the British but bad for the Irish'' and thats the way it was. Its certainly causing alot of debate here since the news broke and being covered on the national RTE TV and radio stations with phone ins etc... She had a huge impact on Irish politics at the time and her attitude towards the hunger stikers etc...

The one thing I will always respect her for also is allowing immigrants to buy their council houses despite cries from people who were jealous of the fact that plenty wanted to work and better themselves like my immigrant parents rather than just sit on their back sides and have everything given to them !


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

OA260, Maggie did sign the Anglo-Irish treaty.
It was a step, that would help the efforts of the next PM but one after Maggie to go rather further and finally end the terror - aside from the tiny bunch of refuseniks still holding out.

Worth remembering too that not only was she nearly killed by the IRA (and her defiance afterwards was wonderful), but a close friend Airey Neave, had been murdered in 1979 and another close confidant and MP, Ian Gow, was murdered in 1990.

But Gerry Adams has since admitted that the Northern Ireland Secretary the IRA had feared the most, was Roy Mason in the late 1970's, a former miner and member of Jim Callaghan's government.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5776 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 28):
OA260, Maggie did sign the Anglo-Irish treaty.

Indeed I know Irish history quite well and have been part of it myself when I voted yes in the Good Friday agreement and this has also been aknowledged in the statements from Irish politicians and the President of Ireland today which have been very carefully worded.

Statement from Áras an Uachtaráin

"I am sorry to learn of the death of Lady Thatcher. To have been Great Britain's first female Prime Minister means that Margaret Thatcher's place in history is secure. She will be remembered as one of the most conviction-driven British Prime Ministers who drew on a scholarship that demanded markets without regulation.

The policies of Mrs Thatcher's Government in regard to Northern Ireland gave rise to considerable debate at the time. However, her key role in signing the Anglo-Irish Agreement will be recalled as a valuable early contribution to the search for peace and political stability.

Lady Thatcher's political career, its impact and legacy will be discussed and debated for many years. What is undeniable is that the strength of conviction in her beliefs was acknowledged by those who robustly opposed her, as well as by those who enthusiastically supported her.

I extend my condolences to Lady Thatcher's family, her friends and political colleagues."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0408/380...british-pm-margaret-thatcher-dies/


User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

https://www.facebook.com/events/351111824993138/351138611657126/?notif_t=plan_mall_activity

Looks like some people are ready to party....



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinefruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5548 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 26):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 27):
Quoting GDB (Reply 28):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 29):

Thanks to you both for those interesting posts.

I come from a familty of teachers and miners and Mrs Thatcher was referred to in our house as 'that woman'.

It was interesting to hear the views of politicians from all parties on the radio this evening. The general consensus was that, on the credit side, the drive for increased market liberalisation and the reduction in union power were good things; but a lack of social empathy, illustrated by one interviewee saying that 'she was an achiever, and couldn't understand why not everyone else was' undermined her in the end. It was her way or the highway and there seemed to be little understanding of the way that her policies impacted real human beings and their lives.

In some ways it's ironic that this failing was highlighted by the fact that she had many sleepless nights after sending troops to the Falklands.

My condolences to Baroness Thatcher's family and her friends.

[Edited 2013-04-08 11:46:41]

[Edited 2013-04-08 11:55:33]


Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5518 times:

Some of the achievements of Margaret Thatcher :

Reduced the highest rate of tax at the time from 83 pence to 60 pence. Later reduced to 40 pence in the pound.

Liberated the Falkland Islands .

Allowed working class British people and immigrants to get onto the property ladder and buy their council homes.

Privatised British Airways / British Telecom (BT) / British Gas. Today these are big companies which employ hundreds of thousands in the UK and some abroad. Also allowing all citizens to be share holders in companies.

Put the City of London on the financial map.

Was a peace maker and mediator between President Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5483 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):
Allowed working class British people and immigrants to get onto the property ladder and buy their council homes.

That was a popular policy, however for ideological reasons some of the proceeds of the sales were not, despite pleading from councils on both sides, allowed to build new homes.
The effects are still felt today.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):
Privatised British Airways / British Telecoms (BT) / British Gas. Today these are big companies which employ hundreds of thousands in the UK and some abroad. Also allowing all citizens to be share holders in companies.

While privatising companies who faced real competition, like BA, BAe, RR etc made sense, many today feel the utility companies were just turned from state monopolies into private ones. With much of the utilities in foreign hands.
They were big companies before.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):
Put the City of London on the financial map.

I would argue that it was still a major city in that respect before, however no doubt that any decline there at least was arrested and reversed. She was also in power when the technology to allow the 'big bang' became available.


User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

RIP Maggie, condolences to the family but not to the legacy. Sadly she left behind a country more divided and a generation of politicians who wanted to be as strong but never had the balls to be anything different.

User currently offlinefruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):

Further achievements:

When she left power the gap between rich and poor had widened; indeed after inflation is taken into account the poorest were LESS well off after her time in power, the first time this had ever happened over one or more parliaments.

An entire country (Scotland) alienated and resentful of the British parliament. If Scotland choose independence in 2014 much of the credit/blame will be laid at her Governments feet.

Much of the M1 corridor north of Northampton remains economically decimated as a result of her policies during the miners strike. Scargill was as much to blame but her lack of compassion has left deep scars - she could have ended the strike much sooner and still achieved the same result.

The decline of British manufacturing started under her watch. The decline since the mid '90's were an inevitable consequence and would have happened under any government. To balance the books the Thatcher governments placed a huge focus on financial services, this policy was pursued by subsequent governments resulting in an unbalanced economy and the huge economic problems we are now encountering.

She set the UK in a certain direction and made it almost impossible to change course. Some decisions and policies have worked out well, others less so. Whether we are net winners or losers depends upon your perspective.

This is interesting perspective from a number of diverse viewpoints. Just ignore the extremists from both ends of the political spectrum in the comments!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...t-did-margaret-thatcher-do-britain

[Edited 2013-04-08 12:57:03]


Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

Good riddance to the old bag. Friend of Pinochet, Hussein and Suharto- judge her by the company she kept.

I love seeing everybody's reaction to things like this though- there still pervades this weird idea that you can't speak ill of the dead, so everybody's responding with euphemisms like "she was a strong woman" and "she stuck to her guns" as though these are good things in isolation.

Thatcher would never have done that- it's probably the only thing I admire about her.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5375 times:

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 31):
Thanks to you both for those interesting posts.
I come from a familty of teachers and miners and Mrs Thatcher was referred to in our house as 'that woman'.

My Famiy were split. My Sister was a left wing activist often going on marches arranged by Ken Livingstone and the like. My Grandmother was a true blue tory and my parents were Liberals ( the original lot ) . So we had some interesting chats over the years. The rest of my close relatives would have been conservative also.

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
That was a popular policy, however for ideological reasons some of the proceeds of the sales were not, despite pleading from councils on both sides, allowed to build new homes.
The effects are still felt today.

Well despite years of Labour governments they did not change that if they really wanted to afterwards.

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
While privatising companies who faced real competition, like BA, BAe, RR etc made sense, many today feel the utility companies were just turned from state monopolies into private ones. With much of the utilities in foreign hands.
They were big companies before.

My Dad worked for the GPO and then it became British Telecom and then BT . After privatisation there were more opportunities to get promotions and my Dad worked his way up and retired as a high level manager. British Airways was loss making and costing the tax payer highly before it was finally let go later becoming what it is today.

In the UK you have so much choice of electricity providers you name it ! Come over here and you can see a monopoly !

Take BT for example in the early 90's they lost the monopoly and competition came in lowering phone bills and giving more choice to consumers.

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
I would argue that it was still a major city in that respect before, however no doubt that any decline there at least was arrested and reversed.

Alot of people in the city would disagree with you there. She was instrumental in her drive to make it a world financial base.

If we had have had BT/BA/BG/ British Rail under state control then you only have to look to Greece to see how it would have been bloated, full of bureaucratic red tape and hemorrhaging money. Believe me Ive seen the alternative and lived amongst it.


User currently offlineferengi80 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 693 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5350 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I didn't agree with most of what she did, apart from retaking the Falklands, which I think she was completely right to do. However, I do admire the fact that when she made a decision, she stuck with it. That is something modern Politicians really need to learn.

Love her or hate her, Thatcher made a big impact on the country we are today.

Rest in Peace, Prime Minister.



AF1981 LHR-CDG A380-800 10 July 2010 / AF1980 CDG-LHR A380-800 11 July 2010
User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12518 posts, RR: 35
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5283 times:

I have to say that I never particularly liked Thatcher, although I respected her and her vigor, vision and determination; she was - like no other democratic politician in my lifetime, not even Blair - absolutely ruthless in her commitment to her goals.

As I write this, I am watching a BBC review of her life and public career, presented by Andrew Marr. It's a fascinating look back over her career, fair and objective. Quite a few of her critics and detractors, such as Neil Kinnock, were interview and I couldn't help thinking "who are you, now?".

Bottom line: when she took power, Britain was on its knees - financially and in many other ways; it was nearly ungovernable and when she left power, it was in a much better state, far wealthier, more successful and confident. That transition was not going to be achieved by a wallflower. The state that Britain was in was such that it was going to take a lot of ruthlessness and hard work to turn it around; she was that person. Had Labour won in '79 or '83, Britain would never have achieved the turnaround it needed to achieve; it might well have collapsed economcially, because the unions were far too powerful and no-one but Thatcher had the backbone to take them on.

So, as much as I might dislike her, I have to say that she was Britain's greatest post-war PM (and I include Churchill in that, for while he is justifiably hailed as a great wartime PM, he was a pretty lousy poor post-war PM).

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 17):
Labour systematically destroyed the UK's economy single handedly. The UK was in very good shape when she and Major left office.

I don't think they destroyed it as such; I think they recognised the challenges it faced - Callaghan certainly did; it's just that it was too much in thrall to the unions to do anything about it.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 39):
I don't think they destroyed it as such; I think they recognised the challenges it faced - Callaghan certainly did; it's just that it was too much in thrall to the unions to do anything about it.

I was referring to the Brown legacy, i can see the confusion however.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 39):
I don't think they destroyed it as such; I think they recognised the challenges it faced - Callaghan certainly did; it's just that it was too much in thrall to the unions to do anything about it.

Indeed, his government was the first to really control inflation, it had lowered significantly, though still high by today's standards, ironically by 1979.
However, the mess left by Heath and the neglect of Wilson's declining 74-76 term, in the wake of the oil shock and other worldwide economic changes, the UK was inevitably going to end up at the IMF. Experienced eye watering inflation too.
(Though the Treasury later discovered they'd got their sums wrong, the UK was still in serious economic trouble, however the size of the IMF loan would have been much smaller had the right figures been to hand).

The stupidity of the activist base of the unions, rather than their hapless leaders, beggared belief.
True the wage demands had been as a result of the inflation of the 70's, several years of restraint burst open in late 1978, since Callaghan would not budge because it would wreck his inflation policy.
But the unions buried the Labour government, as they had to Ted Heath's, maybe they just thought some woman will be the third in a row.

More importantly, much of the public, including many union members, just had enough after the winter of 1978/79, wanted a clean break.

British industry had been in decline since the early 20th century, it did, under Thatcher, shrink much more rapidly however. This went well beyond lame ducks finally collapsing, state owned basket cases going down.
Remember too, prior to selling Rover cars to BAe in 1988, the government has still poured money in long after Labour left office.
What I'm saying is the usual narratives on both sides, on this subject, is a bit over simplified.
I do agree that the wider neglect of regions, industries, has left scars and problems.

To be brutal and not as a paid up supporter of her party, she brought in a revolution.
Revolutions always have casualties.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5215 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 39):
So, as much as I might dislike her, I have to say that she was Britain's greatest post-war PM (and I include Churchill in that, for while he is justifiably hailed as a great wartime PM, he was a pretty lousy poor post-war PM).

That is certainly true.

One thing I have to say I'm disgusted at is the Sky News report of a bunch of students celebrating with champagne in central Glasgow. Sadly these are people who are the scum bags of society and it makes you wonder whether they were dragged up by their scum bag parents or are they just stupid low lifes who have been brain washed by others. A Lot of these people were not even around at the time of her PM years. I don't mind people airing their views in a respectful manner and saying that they think she was bad for the country but you do have to wonder the morality of these idiots.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7712 posts, RR: 21
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5048 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 27):

I think you mis understood.

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification. It's just that the obvious inference was that she might have been either wrong or in the minority in taking the view she did, but I understand what you really meant now.   



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5028 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 39):
Bottom line: when she took power, Britain was on its knees - financially and in many other ways; it was nearly ungovernable and when she left power, it was in a much better state, far wealthier, more successful and confident. That transition was not going to be achieved by a wallflower. The state that Britain was in was such that it was going to take a lot of ruthlessness and hard work to turn it around; she was that person. Had Labour won in '79 or '83, Britain would never have achieved the turnaround it needed to achieve; it might well have collapsed economcially, because the unions were far too powerful and no-one but Thatcher had the backbone to take them on.

So, as much as I might dislike her, I have to say that she was Britain's greatest post-war PM (and I include Churchill in that, for while he is justifiably hailed as a great wartime PM, he was a pretty lousy poor post-war PM).

I have to agree with you, with things like rubbish piling up in the streets and rotting and so on because of endless strikes, something had to be done with no beating around the bush. Like Churchill in 1940, she was the right person at the right time, but in politics everyone has a shelf life.

It was the whole poll tax fiasco that finished her off.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 42):
I don't mind people airing their views in a respectful manner and saying that they think she was bad for the country but you do have to wonder the morality of these idiots.

   Seen some posts of facebook today from people who should know better along the lines of "I like the look of the plans for Maggies grave, but the dance floor needs to be bigger".



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2890 posts, RR: 8
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4997 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 36):
Good riddance to the old bag. Friend of Pinochet, Hussein and Suharto- judge her by the company she kept.

You gonna throw in your own leaders when they pass on !

I think nearly every immediate past US president has courted these people, why is she any different ?

RIP to one gutsy lady.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4982 times:

I have no love for Ms. Thatcher's general policies, but as others here and elsewhere have noted, in effect what else could be done and who else could have done it?
Yes, she broke the unions, but they needed to be put in their place, moderated from their reckless and luddite views that was literally destroying them and the country.
The coal mines were a economic and ecological disaster area, there was not much to do but shut them down.
One could debate her decisions as to the Falklands War, but sometimes you have to honor your commitments to the peoples in your territories and against aggressive war being waged by the Argentines to cover their huge problems.
Do I wish she had done better in dealing with the IRA and NI? Maybe, but eventually she did have to defend the UK from those who terrorized and killed too many (and almost killed her too in 1984 - I remember that).
Was her deregulation of banking and finance too much? Maybe, especially since 2008, but it made a lot of people rich and how much did others make it worse to create the crises of recent years. She also had to deal with the huge insurance and reinsurance crises of the mid-1980's, saving the industry, especially Lloyds of London and their members from crashing.
She also had to deal with the UK being a member of the EU, but not accepting their Euro, keeping the Pound - perhaps a critical legacy many in the UK and elsewhere agree with.
Yes, she didn't like as a commentator here in the USA put it, bad socialism, but still supported 'good' socialism including improving OAP benefits, supporting a more efficient but basic and solid NHS for all, improving the spending on the disabled, cut taxes of the rich to keep them and their monies in the country, encourage investment in the UK, and overall improved benefits for the unemployed.
She did pretty good for the child of a small shopkeeper, able to go to Oxford, breaking barriers for women in the workplace and politics. It is too bad she suffered from her mind dying before her body. She will continue to be controversial, a subject of political history, loved and hated. But she will be remembered.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4969 times:

Lady Thatcher was in declining health, suffering with dementia for many years.

She refused to place economic sanctions on apartheid South Africa while Prime Minister, called Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress "terrorists" on more than one occasion, and was vehemently anti-gay, giving well-publicized hateful speeches on the topic. She changed the UK, for sure. Whether those efforts were worthwhile is WHOLE another story.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4968 times:

Maggie was a good politician by American standards, and excellent by European. Shame to see her gone.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
If we had have had BT/BA/BG/ British Rail under state control then you only have to look to Greece to see how it would have been bloated, full of bureaucratic red tape and hemorrhaging money.

   And thanks to the divestment of British Leyland, her funeral procession stands a great chance of reaching its destination with no breakdowns.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 46):
She also had to deal with the UK being a member of the EU, but not accepting their Euro, keeping the Pound - perhaps a critical legacy many in the UK and elsewhere agree with.

The woman should be universally lauded for keeping the UK out of the Euro mess.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
Have you heard that even though she's only been in hell for one hour, she's already shut down three furnances?

I doubt she would pass through hell for more than to appreciate what socialism leads to, but if she did I am sure Satan himself would be very appreciative of that, as no doubt those furnaces would have been run into the ground by incompetent, mismanaging unionized demons.

RIP, Maggie. Thank you for trying to warn us, but alas, we did not listen.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

I recall another famous phrase: "The lady's not for turning."

And yet Thatcher was capable of an about-face when it suited the occasion. She was steadfastly opposed to sanctions against South Africa and denounced those who supported boycotting sporting events like cricket and rugby. "Politics and Sport should not be mixed," she intoned. And yet she was the first to call for a boycott of the Moscow Olympics. It is true that she did not ban people from going, but her disapproval of those who went was obvious.

Quoting GDB (Reply 26):
that economic doctrine was already being practiced by the preceding Callaghan government.

Indeed, when I met Thatcher in 1978 and asked her about where she thought the axe might fall, she did pay a back-handed compliment to Healey, commenting that "Denis Healey said it couldn't be done but he found four billion."


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4866 times:

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 35):
The decline of British manufacturing started under her watch.

Theat's a complete load of garbage, the decline in British manufacturing started in the late 60's. By the time the 80's rolled around it was pretty much over. The unions have a lot to do with this, they killed the shipbuilding industry, the steel industry, the motor industry, the mining industry was also in the toilet.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4772 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 47):
She refused to place economic sanctions on apartheid South Africa while Prime Minister, called Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress "terrorists" on more than one occasion, and was vehemently anti-gay, giving well-publicized hateful speeches on the topic.

  

Yep, she was getting a lot of domestic pressure to crackdown on Apartheid South Africa... but she stood fast and fought it at every turn. And did so with Ronald Reagan - as he too, had the US Congress bringing great pressure to impose great sanctions on SA. Business interest and huge South African lobbying won out.

The thing is, this period was one of the moments where doing what's Right could have had profound impact and brought long-term suffering to an end much sooner. This bad judgement on both of their behalves tarnish each in the same manner where US Supreme Court rulings such as the wrongheaded Dred Scott & Plessy v. Ferguson decisions could have instantly charted the nations course for the better.

Britain was the ally that South Africa COULD NOT do without, the USA..sure, the UK..no chance. The UK was the straw that could have instantly broken the camel's back. Even David Cameron has condemned Thatcher's policy towards SA, known then as 'constructive engagement' ticking off many older Conservative Party members.

Because of her reluctance to take action India's PM Rajiv Ghandi and the majority threatened to break away from the Commonwealth if she did continue her course.. she then agreed to some flimsy limited sanctions. Her actions unnecessarily prolonged the misery of millions because of a backward attitude when the long learned lessons India were right there on her plate.

The sad part is, there was absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain on Reagan and/or Thatcher's behalf had they done what was right..they gave into their weaker impulses without any real reason or rationale.

Sorry, that's too big of a stain to pretend it's not there.

BN747

[Edited 2013-04-09 03:25:51]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 53, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4733 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 52):

Yep, she was getting a lot of domestic pressure to crackdown on Apartheid South Africa

Even in South Africa people are split both blacks and whites.

'ON THE PASSING OF LADY MARGARET THATCHER FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM STATEMENT BY PRINCE MANGOSUTHU BUTHELEZI MP PRESIDENT OF THE INKATHA FREEDOM PARTY

I am devastated by the news of Lady Margaret Thatcher's passing this morning. She is an iconic figure in world history, being the first female Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the woman who reversed her nation's decline following World War II, saw victory in the Falklands War, won three elections and served her country from 1979 to 1990.

But in my mind she remains, first and foremost, a friend. Lady Thatcher will forever command my respect and admiration, not only for her leadership in the UK, but for her leadership on global matters. She was a voice of reason during Apartheid and listened attentively to my plea against sanctions and economic disinvestment, which we both recognised would hurt the poorest of our people the most.

I was privileged to visit Lady Thatcher at 10 Downing Street in 1986, and was honoured when she specifically travelled to Ulundi to visit me as the Chief Minister of the erstwhile KwaZulu Government. Never before had an international dignitary shown such respect for a black leadership''

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politic...654?oid=368451&sn=Detail&pid=71616


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 54, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4730 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 52):
prolonged the misery of millions because of a backward attitude

Looks like they are still pretty miserable if you ask me, all that's changed is the colour of the government and president.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 55, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 52):
prolonged the misery of millions because of a backward attitude

Looks like they are still pretty miserable if you ask me, all that's changed is the colour of the government and president.

A history lesson in store?

You don't have entire townships being shot up, children killed, anyone ..and I mean anyone suspicious rounded up and detained without reason. Have you ever been treated like a Palestinian trying to go to work in Tel Aviv daily? That was daily life for nearly all black males in SA..no rights at all. And being jailed for having 'no papers'..

Try experiencing a lifetime of indignities and humiliations on daily basis before taking it upon yourself to decide 'who's misery' and what is or isn't for people who've endured it their entire lives.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 53):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 52):

Yep, she was getting a lot of domestic pressure to crackdown on Apartheid South Africa

Even in South Africa people are split both blacks and whites.

yes...or worse.

Margaret Thatcher Receives Critical Eulogy From South Africa

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...tcher-south-africa-_n_3039649.html

All over the world, that is, except for South Africa. Going against overwhelming mainstream sentiment, Thatcher refused to impose sanctions on South Africa's apartheid regime and went so far as to describe the African National Congress in 1987 as terrorists. "Anyone who thinks it is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land," she said of the ANC at the time.

BN747

[Edited 2013-04-09 03:38:40]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 56, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4718 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 54):
Looks like they are still pretty miserable if you ask me, all that's changed is the colour of the government and president.

Indeed I have heard that from both White and Black South Africans.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 55):
You don't have entire townships being shot up, children killed, anyone ..and I mean anyone suspicious rounded up and detained without reason.

In South Africa's slums, mob justice rules

Beaten and set alight, Ncedile Gigi's unrecognizable remains have not been buried since March, when a mob fed up with poor policing took the law into their own hands, torching the 26-year-old in a crime-ridden South African township.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...africa-crime-idUSBRE86B0YM20120712


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 57, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 53):
I was privileged to visit Lady Thatcher at 10 Downing Street in 1986, and was honoured when she specifically travelled to Ulundi to visit me as the Chief Minister of the erstwhile KwaZulu Government. N

I don't think you understand who the IFP is or was by quoting this... but here is portrait of how they were seen at the time...

With anti-apartheid leaders inside South Africa and abroad demanding sanctions, Buthelezi came to be regarded more and more as a government puppet, along with other Bantustan leaders. His tribal loyalties and focus on ethnic interests over national unity were also criticised as contributing to the divisive programme of the IFP.
- wikipedia

Get an ANC official to show sadness over Thatcher..and you've got something, the ANC paid the price of the struggle...the IFP did not.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 56):
In South Africa's slums, mob justice rules
Quoting OA260 (Reply 56):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 54):
Looks like they are still pretty miserable if you ask me, all that's changed is the colour of the government and president.

Indeed I have heard that from both White and Black South Africans.

Let's keep the focus Thatcher's legacy.

Sure South Africa is no paradise, it never was (except for whites). but neither is most of the planet. You may vacation in many places on the planet and the police rule is a millimeter away from mob rule. In many nations, the police are to be feared more than gangs. Practically the entire Middle East, some Latin America destinations, some Eastern European nations.. and it's gonna be like this for a very very long time. One thing most westerns - and mostly Americans must come to realize is that MOST of the world is just not as comfortable.

But is this about what Thatcher had a chance to do...and chose not to.


BN747

[Edited 2013-04-09 03:58:29]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
But is this about what Thatcher had a chance to do...and chose not to.

She like other people at the time believed sanctions would only hurt the poorest of the country ie: the Blacks. So she prefered a different angle like many others. She did not believe in apartheid but thought there was a better way. Sanctions as we have seen in history often only hurt the most vulnerable of society.



---

The funeral will be held next Wednesday . HM the Queen will attend along with many other high level figures.



User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4666 times:

I think as to South Africa, there was 2 critical reason for her reluctance for not supporting the battle against apartheid - that UK business interests owned a lot of the gold and diamond industry and that she didn't want another 'communist' style government taking over those investments. Deep down she was a capitalist and saw communism as immoral and would steal private property, a belief strongly held by her contemporaries.

I think the legacy of Ms. Thatcher is very complex and will continue to be debated for many years.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4661 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 58):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 57):
But is this about what Thatcher had a chance to do...and chose not to.

She like other people at the time believed sanctions would only hurt the poorest of the country ie: the Blacks. So she prefered a different angle like many others. She did not believe in apartheid but thought there was a better way. Sanctions as we have seen in history often only hurt the most vulnerable of society.

I know you want to have this warm and fuzzy feeling for her... but what you're saying makes no sense at all.

How on earth could the blacks been hurt by Sanctions from Thatcher & Reagan?

Have you any idea how they were living??? In tin shacks living of virtually nothing...they had no dependency on the Western powers at all!

The argument you make is the same ridiculous excuse made about Cuba..do you think US sanctions are hurting the Cuban poor??? Or is it pinching those who stand to make a mint on dropping the sanctions? I've been there, and the poor in Cuba is like the world over... they survive on next to nothing and they get no noticeable benefits from western powers. PLUS it was the very blacks who wanted Britain to end co-operation with the Apartheid gov't.. who knew better what was best for them? They themselves.. or Thatcher?

You cannot paint this in some pretty outcome...it was a bad move on her part ...made worse by the fact that she had nothing to lose and everything to gain - and she still made the wrong decision in the face of all the evidence in her face - history bears that out as well.

..and the photo of her with Mandela says more about Mandela, who forgave his jailers, torturers who beat him, even met with him... Thatcher and Reagan - reversed roles - would never have met and with their 'jailers & torturers' and forgave them so graciously, they just were not those kind of people.

I have to wonder in the photo at 10 Downing St... moments earlier was Thatcher saying to Mandela, " Mr. Mandela, all that crap I was saying about your party (the ANC).. I didn't mean a word of it, I was just grandstanding for the cameras and scoring cheap polly points. Y'know how that goes, right?"


BN747

[Edited 2013-04-09 04:56:35]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 59):
I think as to South Africa, there was 2 critical reason for her reluctance for not supporting the battle against apartheid - that UK business interests owned a lot of the gold and diamond industry and that she didn't want another 'communist' style government taking over those investments.

The 1st part of your statement is spot on and I pointed out business/money making concerns.

The 2nd, by 1985 , the communism shtick, although a true sentiment, was factually baseless. By 1985 'the commie scare' card no longer held credibility, China was opening, as was Vietnam. The Chinese were already making huge inroads in Africa,...if anything, with the inevitable coming, if anything her actions drove the Anti-Apartheid forces into the arms of the Chinese...not away. Luckily, a man like Mandela was chosen because had the ANC gone full-bore communist... Thatcher/UK & Reagan/US polices were certainly to shoulder a great deal of blame.

Thankfully, the US's TransAfrica and many western Anti-Apartheid forces were so hands on and intrinsically involved..they were the only forces that most likely prevented a communist gov't. They have gotten little recognition for the tenacious devotion & dedication they provided in all this.. they are all but forgotten.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

A great prime minister, she had more balls than the current elected members of parliment.


Lets gets some facts out of the way.

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist - at the time, almost every intelligence agency had marked the ANC as a terrorist organisation.

Nelson Madela was originally incarcerated, not for his political views, but for involvement in 23 different acts of sabotage and conspiring to overthrow the government.

He and his fellow conspirators of the ANC and the South African Communist Party were caught by the police while in the possession of 48,000 Soviet-made anti-personnel mines and 210,000 hand-grenades.

1983: a car bomb kills 16 people
At least 16 people have been killed and more than 130 people injured in a car bomb explosion in South Africa's capital city, Pretoria.

The explosion happened outside the Nedbank Square building on Church Street at about 1630 hours - the height of the city's rush hour.

More than 20 ambulances attended the scene and took the dead and injured to three hospitals in and around Pretoria.

Police sealed off the surrounding area with a barbed-wire fence as emergency personnel sifted through the rubble looking for bodies.

Bomb disposal experts were called to the scene to search for a possible second bomb.

The outlawed anti-apartheid group the African National Congress has been blamed for the attack.


I would imagine her loathing of terrorists stems from seeing her great friend and MP Airey Neave get killed by a car bomb planted by an Irish dissident group.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 59):
I think the legacy of Ms. Thatcher is very complex and will continue to be debated for many years.

Thats for sure . She has sparked so much debate over the years and even after so many years out of government and in her death she will continue to be quoted and discussed.

Some of my favourite quotes from here :

"I love argument. I love debate. I don't expect anyone just to sit there and agree with me - that's not their job"

"Any woman who understands the problems of running a home will be nearer to understanding the problems of running a country."

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't."

"Disciplining yourself to do what you know is right and important, although difficult, is the high road to pride, self-esteem, and personal satisfaction."

"It pays to know the enemy – not least because at some time you may have the opportunity to turn him into a friend."

"To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say. You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning."

A drink at the Rovers Return  http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/roversreturn_zps7e030c12.jpg

[Edited 2013-04-09 04:59:16]

User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4617 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 55):
South Africa's apartheid regime and went so far as to describe the African National Congress in 1987 as terrorists.

They were, you might consider them freedom fighters but most others considered them terrorists.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 55):
You don't have entire townships being shot up, children killed, anyone ..and I mean anyone suspicious rounded up and detained without reason. Have you ever been treated like a Palestinian trying to go to work in Tel Aviv daily? That was daily life for nearly all black males in SA..no rights at all. And being jailed for having 'no papers'..

Try experiencing a lifetime of indignities and humiliations on daily basis before taking it upon yourself to decide 'who's misery' and what is or isn't for people who've endured it their entire lives.

Still happening today on a near enough daily basis, the only thing that's changed are the cops are mostly black not white and the guys running the show are black not white.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 60):
Have you any idea how they were living??? In tin shacks living of virtually nothing

Which they are still living in today, not much has really changed for the average South African black.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4574 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 62):
Lets gets some facts out of the way.

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist - at the time, almost every intelligence agency had marked the ANC as a terrorist organisation.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 64):

They were, you might consider them freedom fighters but most others considered them terrorists.

Then since Thatcher, you and the Apartheid gov't called him that... he must be. As the Brits called George Washington, Payne, Hale and the gang terrorist as well..we'd better get to erasing those history books...they're all wrong.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 64):

Still happening today on a near enough daily basis,

I see, so You DO HAVE entire townships being shot up, children killed, anyone ..and I mean anyone suspicious rounded up and detained without reason...

..funny, I can not find a single current news report from this Century backing you up..you must be on to something no one else knows...

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 64):

Quoting BN747 (Reply 60):
Have you any idea how they were living??? In tin shacks living of virtually nothing

Which they are still living in today, not much has really changed for the average South African black.

Yes, as are the poor Filipinos under the Tyrant Marcos.

As are the poor under the Shah.

As are the poor under Ghaddafi,,

As are the poor under Nicolae Ceausescu...

...I guess we should put them back under the same former leadership since YOU can see any economic change? I'm mean it's only the economic conditions that matter to you and political freedoms and human rights hace no worth as far as your world goes, should you experience the lack of the last two...let is know how it's 'no big deal' to you.

But you all are doing a smashing job at trying anything to whitewash Thatcher's Human Rights FUBAR.

BN747

[Edited 2013-04-09 07:23:53]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4534 times:

Tributes pour in from around the World :

President Obama :

“America has lost a true friend. “As a grocer’s daughter who rose to become Britain’s first female prime minister, she stands as an example to our daughters that there is no glass ceiling that can’t be shattered.

“As prime minister, she helped restore the confidence and pride that has always been the hallmark of Britain at its best.

“And as an unapologetic supporter of our transatlantic alliance, she knew with strength and resolve we could win the Cold War and extend freedom’s promise.”

-----

Nancy Reagan :

“Ronnie and Margaret were political soul mates, committed to freedom and resolved to end Communism.

“As Prime Minister, Margaret had the clear vision and strong determination to stand up for her beliefs at a time when so many were afraid to ‘rock the boat’.”

-----

Meryl Streep :

“Margaret Thatcher was to me a figure of awe for her personal strength and grit.”

Leonid ­Kalashnikov:

“She is the greatest woman, the greatest politician – as an opponent, I always respected her.
And how she, with the Americans ‘strangled’ the Soviet Union is also worth quite a lot – because she did it correctly, logically and in their own interests.

“Our men-politicians need to learn from her, how to stand up for the national interests of your country.”

-----

Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond :

"Margaret Thatcher was a truly formidable prime minister whose policies defined a political generation,"


Oh and just to put in context the kind of scum bags out on the streets of Brixton, London last night celebrating, they smashed the windows of the Barnado's charity shop which raises funds for Children who have been abused and abandoned. So it just goes to show what moral end of the spectrum these people are on! Most likely the same thugs that were in favor of the London riots.


Barnardo's shop in Brixton has windows smashed during 'Thatcher death party'

http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/Fundrai...ashed-during-thatcher-death-party/


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4471 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 51):
The unions have a lot to do with this, they killed the shipbuilding industry

A lot of the time yes, however that's not the whole picture.
Complacent and often plain incompetent management helped none either.
In the 60's and some of the 70's even, the UK had a fewer % of strikes than some competitors, including at various times, France, Canada, the US.

But perhaps the account of Peter Walker, a businessman who became a MP then Minister in both Heath's and Thatcher's government, illustrated it was not always a one way street.
During Heath's term, he went to visit, as a minister, the shipyards on the Clyde, bailed out more than once, still in trouble.
In the yard, (open and unmodernised unlike the better ones elsewhere in Europe, Japan, South Korea), he spoke with the Union Shop Stewards.
Walker was surprised by their interest and knowledge on subjects like the world market trends, how to increase efficiency, what specialised markets they should try and concentrate in rather than trying ti beat low wage yards elsewhere.

Then to the Boardroom, Walker tried to engage the management in the issues raised in the yard but the board were more interested it seemed in the upcoming Grouse shooting season, the food and drink at the table, a few complaints about the unions but nothing too angry.
Not it seems in the ones you would think they'd discuss with a Minister Of The Crown of a government that had just helped them, again.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 65):

Then since Thatcher, you and the Apartheid gov't called him that... he must be.

Govt's all over the world including your own called him a terrorist and the organisation he co founded was also considered a terrorist organisation.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 65):
But you all are doing a smashing job at trying anything to whitewash Thatcher's Human Rights FUBAR.

No I'm not, what you're trying to do it portray South Africa as a nice place to live, which it is if you're white or a rich black with connections, otherwise you're no better of than what you were in the old days.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/economi...-post-apartheid-south-africa/32505

http://rense.com/general20/diversityAL.htm

Quote:
What was once the most economically and technologically advanced society on the African continent now lurches into the abyss created by egalitarians-and no one in its government or in the world press dares say why.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/special-fe...g-apartheid-1.1372807#.UWRH4BnNrea

Quote:
Black people are worse off than they were during the apartheid years, expelled ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema said on Thursday.

“We are worse [off] than during the times of apartheid. We are being killed by our own people. We are being oppressed by our own government,” he told mineworkers at the Aurora mine in Grootvlei, Springs.
ANC-went-cockeyed" target="_blank">http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/con...146827&Where-the-ANC-went-cockeyed

Quote:
In some ways blacks are worse off now than under apartheid. Life expectancy is lower and unemployment is higher. State education and state hospitals are probably inferior.

But don't let the facts kick you in the butt on the way out the door.

Apartheid was a bad system, but what replaced it hasn't changed a thing for most, it's still not a good place to live if you're poor and black.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 51):
Theat's a complete load of garbage, the decline in British manufacturing started in the late 60's. By the time the 80's rolled around it was pretty much over.

   Nationalization is not something that happens when things are going well. It's done for industries that are not mature or are basically dead.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4422 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 66):
Oh and just to put in context the kind of scum bags out on the streets of Brixton, London last night celebrating, they smashed the windows of the Barnado's charity shop which raises funds for Children who have been abused and abandoned. So it just goes to show what moral end of the spectrum these people are on! Most likely the same thugs that were in favor of the London riots.

The irony being that most of the people organizing these parties are students who weren't even born when Thatcher was booted out. I bet if you asked them why Thatcher was so awful they'd have no answer. Ditto the London riots where people had no idea why they were rioting.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 68):
it's still not a good place to live if you're poor and black.

So does that mean you think apartheid should come back? What are you saying exactly? Racial segregation is a good thing? This seems a poor defense of Thatcher's policy. I can't even imagine how living under apartheid would be, but surely there would be some effects on people's state of mind which was non-measurable.

I don't think being anti-sanctions is particularly defensible, particularly when you consider Thatcher's willingness to ignore human rights abuses elsewhere. I do think calling the ANC terrorists is reasonable though- remember hindsight is a wonderful thing; Mandela wasn't viewed then as quite the saint he is now.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 46):
I have no love for Ms. Thatcher's general policies, but as others here and elsewhere have noted, in effect what else could be done and who else could have done it?
Yes, she broke the unions, but they needed to be put in their place, moderated from their reckless and luddite views that was literally destroying them and the country.

If Thatcher had been a one-term Prime Minister I'd put her in the top leaders of all time, for that exact reason. She was a necessary evil. The problem was she hung on too long and the effects were disastrous.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinefruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4412 times:

[quote=kiwirob,reply=51]

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 35):
The decline of British manufacturing started under her watch.

Theat's a complete load of garbage, the decline in British manufacturing started in the late 60's. By the time the 80's rolled around it was pretty much over. The unions have a lot to do with this, they killed the shipbuilding industry, the steel industry, the motor industry, the mining industry was also in the toilet. [quote]

Fair enough if you don't agree with me, there's no need to call it garbage. Perhaps I should have said 'final decline'.

Put it another way, in 1979 British manufacturing was on life support but not without hope. Thatcher's economic policies (including but not limited to high interest rates, a willingness to accept 3m unemployed as a consequence and a lack of incentives to invest in manufacturing) effectively unplugged the life support machine and left the patient to die.



Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 70):
So does that mean you think apartheid should come back? What are you saying exactly?

I'm saying exactly what I said.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 68):
Apartheid was a bad system, but what replaced it hasn't changed a thing for most, it's still not a good place to live if you're poor and black.

The blacks have been screwed over by the very people (fellow blacks) who they expected to help them. I don't have a solution because basically I don't care, I'm not South African, it's not my country.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4391 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 72):
The blacks have been screwed over by the very people (fellow blacks) who they expected to help them. I don't have a solution because basically I don't care, I'm not South African, it's not my country.

Fair enough- you must realize though that if you post a comment saying people are no better off now than under apartheid in the context of an argument about Thatcher's acceptance of apartheid, the obvious inference is that you agree with her position.

From the article you quoted:

Quote:
Ask two questions. Is life better now than it was under apartheid? Could it have been better than it is?

1) Yes. 2) Yes.

But the latter is a story for another topic.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 71):
Put it another way, in 1979 British manufacturing was on life support but not without hope. Thatcher's economic policies (including but not limited to high interest rates, a willingness to accept 3m unemployed as a consequence and a lack of incentives to invest in manufacturing) effectively unplugged the life support machine and left the patient to die.

They did not anticipate a decline as large and so rapid as happened, (there were external economic factors exacerbating the situation), neither did she think that jobs to replace them would be often too few, or too poorly paid (for those supporting families) and/or in the wrong place.
Thatcher anticipated a shake out but thought it would be mostly those companies already teetering on the edge.
So while inflation DID fall and stay down, they never quite got it down as much as they would have liked. There was a mild, almost covert acceptance of this when Monetarism in tooth and claw was quietly dropped in the mid 80's.

Thatcher also thought that the liberalisation of the city would not only boost that part of the economy but also that it would lead to a renaissance of private investment into industry.
Being as the City had not been doing this for much of the 20th century in any great way, this should not have been a surprise when it did not happen.
In her mind, Thatcher probably thought the new City would be rather like Frankfurt in this respect, or as dynamic as Wall Street with added industrial investment as had happened in the Victoria era which had long inspired her.


User currently offlineseemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4354 times:

Section 28 springs to mind, wasn't exactly Thatcher but it enacted under her.

Oh yeah and RIP Maggie



seemyseems
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4352 times:

Quoting seemyseems (Reply 75):
Section 28 springs to mind, wasn't exactly Thatcher but it enacted under her.

Yes this was something that of course I would disagree with but plenty of other people on all sides supported it. It was very different times back then. How old were you when it was brought in ?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4342 times:

Quoting seemyseems (Reply 75):
Section 28 springs to mind

There are a lot of arguments to be made for that if Section 28 hadn't been enacted, there wouldn't have been reason for the organized opposition to it. It could be said that homosexuals in the UK are better off today than they would be if Section 28 hadn't passed. It's the old chestnut of what are you willing to sacrifice today for a better tomorrow.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineflyingthe757 From UK - England, joined Mar 2013, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4333 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting kaitak (Reply 39):

Watched the same documentary. Really enjoyed it, a very good unbiased look at the good and bad things


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 76):
Yes this was something that of course I would disagree with but plenty of other people on all sides supported it. It was very different times back then.

Up to a point- there were also plenty who didn't, mostly on the left. I agree in principle that making judgments about people's decisions 30 years ago based on today's standards is often folly, but you'll see if you look into it that plenty were against. You can't argue with her statement:

"Children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay"

It speaks volumes to her character.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineseemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 76):
It was very different times back then. How old were you when it was brought in ?

I am very aware of the social differences in the mid 1980's and before then. What does my age have to do with it? I can still comment on it, I still think its wrong.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 79):
It speaks volumes to her character.

  



seemyseems
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 77):
There are a lot of arguments to be made for that if Section 28 hadn't been enacted, there wouldn't have been reason for the organized opposition to it. It could be said that homosexuals in the UK are better off today than they would be if Section 28 hadn't passed. It's the old chestnut of what are you willing to sacrifice today for a better tomorrow.

There's a lot of "what if" in that statement. Thatcher's protégées in the Tory government continue to try and thwart gay rights to this day. Playing "what if", had their hero taken a stand on it, things might have been considerably better for gays today.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4314 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 77):
It could be said that homosexuals in the UK are better off today than they would be if Section 28 hadn't passed. It's the old chestnut of what are you willing to sacrifice today for a better tomorrow.

That is also a true statement. Here in Ireland Gay people have some of the most liberal lives because of all the issues they fought with the Catholic church which influenced the state so much.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 79):

"Children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay"

Well in fairness there were alot of left wing activist figures that offered nothing to the younger generations and latched onto issues to further their propaganda. They thought it was right to out everyone even if they didnt want to be outed and Im talking about the ones who never said anything against being Gay. They had an agenda which was very worrying. I was 13 years of age when it came in and coming to terms with my own sexuality and I can honestly say some of these people wanted to force through things in schools to minors that I wouldnt have wanted at the time. They were deliberately trying to shock and provoke. It certainly was different times back then and unless you were in the UK schooling system and growing up as a teenager you would find it hard to understand.

Quoting seemyseems (Reply 80):
I am very aware of the social differences in the mid 1980's and before then. What does my age have to do with it? I can still comment on it, I still think its wrong.

Where did I say you cant comment on it . Take a chill pill ! Read what I posted then comment. I lived through it as above I was 13 . Reading and hearing about it is not the same thing as being the one that was effected. I didnt say you couldnt comment on it but you need to also understand peoples opinions about their experiences at the time before you make sweeping statements.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4302 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 81):
Playing "what if", had their hero taken a stand on it, things might have been considerably better for gays today.

Well of course, you have to. Homosexuality is far more accepted in the UK now than it was when I made my first trip there in 1982. What changed between the dawn of humanity and 1982, and 1982 and present day? Section 28 in 1988.

Can you honestly say that the advancements made since 1988 would have come to pass if there hadn't been a reason to organize to bring them forward? Section 28 was the UK's Stonewall. Simple as that. While it may have been abhorrent at the time, and I certainly didn't support it, the result was better than anyone could have imagined.

The result of Section 28 in the UK is what formed my views for how same-sex marriage should be approached in the U.S., and my predictions have been pretty much spot on.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 82):
Well in fairness there were alot of left wing activist figures that offered nothing to the younger generations and latched onto issues to further their propaganda. They thought it was right to out everyone even if they didnt want to be outed and Im talking about the ones who never said anything against being Gay.

Agreed, but that really doesn't have anything to do with clause 28, and it certainly can't possibly be an interpretation for Thatcher's quote above.

These fears the Daily Mail brought up were largely overblown anyway, as you can tell by the number of times clause 28 was used. I don't know if you were brought up in the UK, but if you were, how many times during your schooling did you read "Jenny lives with Eric and Martin"? How would it have impacted you if you did?

One can try and justify these things endlessly, but some things are ultimately just wrong, even by the standards of the times.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4296 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 68):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 65):

Then since Thatcher, you and the Apartheid gov't called him that... he must be.

Govt's all over the world including your own called him a terrorist and the organisation he co founded was also considered a terrorist organisation.

Again since you gaffed it off the 1st time..

...in that context so was George Washington and all the American Revolutionaries. called terrorist and worse by the Brits.
Between Washington and the ANC. if any had the most valid reason for being a terrorist for a just cause... it would be Mandela and the ANC hands down! No contest.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 68):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 65):
But you all are doing a smashing job at trying anything to whitewash Thatcher's Human Rights FUBAR.

No I'm not, what you're trying to do it portray South Africa as a nice place to live,

You're better of sticking with...

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 72):
basically I don't care, I'm not South African, it's not my country.

Because you're simply arguing about something you don't know a damn thing about. You may not even have been born when this was all the top news story for months.

Apparently, you're here to argue for argument sake and nothing more.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 68):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 65):
But you all are doing a smashing job at trying anything to whitewash Thatcher's Human Rights FUBAR.

No I'm not, what you're trying to do it portray South Africa as a nice place to live, which it is if you're white or a rich black with connections, otherwise you're no better of than what you were in the old days.

You see... their in that reply, the very concept of what life was like for the average black in South Africa versus today escapes you like water from a keg with a million holes.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 68):
but what replaced it hasn't changed a thing for most, it's still not a good place to live if you're poor and black.

The same can be said about poor blacks and poor whites in the United States over any period of time you choose.

The reasoning and the trend are joined at the hip in that who's hands does the nations 'economic might' reside. In South Africa, it's still the whites. And they are very very lucky the Ruling blacks don't do exactly what the whites did to them...take everything they own and ship them to unwanted barren desolate desert lands. Mugabe in Zimbabwe, to a great extent did do exactly that. As much as whites hated it...it was chickens coming home to roost.

It is the terrorist, Nelson Mandela, who must be thanked, that the ANC did not immediately turn to settling a longstanding score and take everything from the whites and toss them out of the country as Mugabe did, leaders such as Chavez - in the same situation would have done it without breaking a sweat or wasting a second.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4277 times:

Shipbuilding in the UK was well on the way to decline long before Thatcher got into power.

Ships were being built cheaper abroad, often with the help of illegal subsidies from those countries governments.


Same with the Steel industry, Cheap steel from abroad was flooding the market. British Steel couldn't compete, partly due to fact unions wouldn't allow any new working practices or modernisation to happen.


Which in turn, was also the problem at British Leyland. Union dominance and the absolute rejection of modernisation and working practices.

Between 1978 and 1979 there were 523 walk outs by British Leyland workers costing around £200million (1979 money)

Funnily enough, when the main union guy was fired (Red Robbo), the union ballated for a strike to try and get him reinstated. The motion was rejected 14000 to 600.


In fact, British Leyland should of been renamed British Viper, because it would strike at anything.


As British Leyland style disruption spread across the nation, the so-called Winter of Discontent in 78-79 saw 29.2 million working days lost, with bodies left unburied following a gravediggers’ strike and uncollected rubbish piled high in the frozen streets when dustbin workers walked out. Leading to the fall of the Labour Govt.


Unions were too political, and needed to put back in place, and Thatcher did that!

But what people tend to forget is Thatcher gets lambasted for closing 22 coal mines and taking on the powerful National Union of Minors. Labour's Harold Wilson closed 93 coal mines in less time and put more people out of work, but was a man and in Labour so that was ok or something.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 84):
Agreed, but that really doesn't have anything to do with clause 28, and it certainly can't possibly be an interpretation for Thatcher's quote above.

Im not defending her quotes I already said I didnt agree with the clause but I can see why people at the time felt that it might have been needed despite their suspect logic. So much was going on in the UK in the 80's even Gays were split on the issue. You quote the Daliy Mail but did you also read the Daily Star Daily Mirror and all other newspapers at the time? They were no better I can tell you. The Daily Mail has become a easy target and cliche these days but they were ALL as bad in their homophobic views I can tell you.

I had a friend from a left wing Labour voting Family whose parents kicked him out because he was a ''filthy poof'' ! So lets not have this left - right divide and say that Thatcher was the worst because plenty on the left were far from pro Gay . Labour MPs were also having their say in bed with The Church of England.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 84):
I don't know if you were brought up in the UK, but if you were, how many times during your schooling did you read "Jenny lives with Eric and Martin"? How would it have impacted you if you did?

Yes as above I was effected by it. I was educated in the UK from birth and went through the schooling system.

I didnt agree with some views of Margaret Thatcher but alot I did.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 83):
Can you honestly say that the advancements made since 1988 would have come to pass if there hadn't been a reason to organize to bring them forward?

Who knows? They did all over the rest of Europe (and the US).

Even section 28 hardened the resolve against discrimination, it doesn't make the legislation a good thing, in the same way that you can't justify apartheid because abolishing it has not led to greater living standards. Ditto justification of segregation on buses because it led to Rosa Parks. It doesn't make the policy a sensible one, it doesn't make the people who supported it less wrong, and it is certainly no justification for the obvious contempt Thatcher had for homosexuals.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 87):
You quote the Daliy Mail but did you also read the Daily Star Daily Mirror and all other newspapers at the time? They were no better I can tell you.

It's my belief that a lot of people forget the affect Mary Whitehouse had on the subject at the time, rather than Margaret Thatcher. If one wasn't alive then, or wasn't following what was going on in the UK at the time, probably have never heard of the woman.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 88):
It doesn't make the policy a sensible one, it doesn't make the people who supported it less wrong, and it is certainly no justification for the obvious contempt Thatcher had for homosexuals.

I never said it was good legislation nor did I say it had any justification. What I'm pointing out is that Section 28 didn't have the consequences intended, and that homosexuals are actually better off due to the organizing efforts against it, than if Section 28 hadn't passed, so it wasn't all negative.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 90):
I never said it was good legislation nor did I say it had any justification. What I'm pointing out is that Section 28 didn't have the consequences intended, and that homosexuals are actually better off due to the organizing efforts against it, than if Section 28 hadn't passed, so it wasn't all negative.

By that standard nothing is all negative. It's the old "all wars lead to peace" argument.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 92, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4229 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 91):
By that standard nothing is all negative.

For the third(?) time ... it was the opposition to Section 28 which brought gay rights in the UK forward. Sure, if everyone had just lied down and taken it, it would have all been negative, but Section 28 galvanized the forces so to speak.

(Don't know why this is such a difficult point to get across.)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 93, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 92):
For the third(?) time ... it was the opposition to Section 28 which brought gay rights in the UK forward. Sure, if everyone had just lied down and taken it, it would have all been negative, but Section 28 galvanized the forces so to speak.

(Don't know why this is such a difficult point to get across.)

You've made that point, and I understand it (it's hardly complex). I am making the more germane point that, within the context of a discussion about whether Thatcher's support of section 28 was detrimental to her legacy, such a point is meaningless.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 94, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 89):
It's my belief that a lot of people forget the affect Mary Whitehouse had on the subject at the time, rather than Margaret Thatcher

Well she was a thread all by itself   She was not always the ally people thought she was of the conservative party. She often held views that conflicted with Margaret Thatcher.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 90):
I never said it was good legislation nor did I say it had any justification. What I'm pointing out is that Section 28 didn't have the consequences intended, and that homosexuals are actually better off due to the organizing efforts against it, than if Section 28 hadn't passed, so it wasn't all negative.

It is ironic in a way that Labour and other left wing groups are slating Margaret Thatcher over the years and suddenly re wrote history that she was anti Gay and homophobic and Labour were flying the rainbow flag since being in their nappies but you would think that they had no similar figures in their own supporters and do you think for one minute that the poor miners would have accepted a Gay boy in their communities. The LGSM at the time who were a Lesbian and Gay group raising funds for the striking miners didnt last long because they realised that the miners were also homophobic.

Let us not forget that in the 1960's as an MP she voted to de criminalise homosexuality something people seem to forget or leave out and I wonder why  


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 95, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4216 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 87):
Im not defending her quotes I already said I didnt agree with the clause but I can see why people at the time felt that it might have been needed despite their suspect logic.

Oh I completely agree. I can absolutely see why people thought that way. Homosexuality was a mystical, nebulous thing back then.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 87):
You quote the Daliy Mail but did you also read the Daily Star Daily Mirror and all other newspapers at the time? They were no better I can tell you. The Daily Mail has become a easy target and cliche these days but they were ALL as bad in their homophobic views I can tell you.

I specifically chose the Daily Mail because they were the ones who ran the "Jenny lives with Eric and Martin" story and were thus important in this specific legislation. I agree that the Star (which I have never actually read- does it have words?) and the Mirror were just as bad (and the Sun, which of course had far higher circulation). Wasn't intended as a specific jab at the Mail, since there's many far better examples of that paper's toxic fear-mongering.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 87):
I had a friend from a left wing Labour voting Family whose parents kicked him out because he was a ''filthy poof'' ! So lets not have this left - right divide and say that Thatcher was the worst because plenty on the left were far from pro Gay . Labour MPs were also having their say in bed with The Church of England.

I never mentioned a left-right divide.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 87):
Yes as above I was effected by it. I was educated in the UK from birth and went through the schooling system.

And did you read that book? Or anything even vaguely similar? I didn't. And if I did I'm not sure if it would have had any detrimental effect on me.



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User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 96, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4203 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 93):
I am making the more germane point that, within the context of a discussion about whether Thatcher's support of section 28 was detrimental to her legacy, such a point is meaningless.

I believe that Thatcher's support of Section 28 is detrimental to her legacy, as the basis for it allowed people like Mary Whitehouse to further her agenda in a welcome atmosphere. That should not be forgotten.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 94):
Let us not forget that in the 1960's as an MP she voted to de criminalise homosexuality something people seem to forget or leave out and I wonder why

In very much the same way that those who have a seething hatred for Ronald Reagan forget that he was a vocal opponent of The Briggs Initiative. History isn't always kind to polarizing figures.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 98, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4188 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 97):
History isn't always kind to polarizing figures.

I think it just tends to polarize them more. Very few people are indifferent to Reagan (or Thatcher), but some believe him to be a saint, just as some believe him a demon. I know people in Silicon Valley who have pictures of him on their mantlepiece.



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User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 99, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4191 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 86):
Labour's Harold Wilson closed 93 coal mines in less time and put more people out of work, but was a man and in Labour so that was ok or something.

It wasn't about Labour in the 1960's, it was about Scargill being years away from running the NUM.
When Joe Gormley led them out in 1972, it was about pay and conditions, which had deteriorated rapidly over years.
Gormley did not oppose the closure of truly uneconomic pits, usually near the end of their working lives anyway.
Since these were usually more dangerous to work in, was also a factor.

Joe Gormley might have led the first major miners strike since 1926, he had no time for militants, indeed he provided MI5 information about leading Communists like Scots NUM leader, Mick McGachy.
(Though his accent was so strong, voice so gravelly from smoking, drinking and coal dust, MI5 eavesdroppers struggled to understand him!)
Gormley was an old fashioned patriot.
But when he retired, Scargill took over.

Scargiill opposed the closure of even near exhausted pits. Though the proposed cuts would go way beyond them.
A ruse of course, Scargill used any closure to provoke a strike, which he thought could bring down the government.
He spoke of himself in the 3rd person, behind his huge desk at NUM HQ there was a huge oil painting of a NUM man on the back of a lorry, exhorting a crown to action.
The man was Scargill himself.

Truly Thatcher was lucky in her enemies at times.
Like the vain, deluded Scargill, who you note has not responded in any way to Thatcher's death.
He won;t when asked.
To talk of Thatcher and her victory over him, is not his preferred narrative, which is his 'victory' in holding out for a whole year.
Not that he suffered the privations of many miners, most of whom were not militants, just ordinary working people.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 100, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 95):
Homosexuality was a mystical, nebulous thing back then.

As a 13 year old it was quite scary believe me. AIDS was also just being realised then too.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 95):
I specifically chose the Daily Mail because they were the ones who ran the "Jenny lives with Eric and Martin" story and were thus important in this specific legislation. I agree that the Star (which I have never actually read- does it have words?) and the Mirror were just as bad (and the Sun, which of course had far higher circulation). Wasn't intended as a specific jab at the Mail, since there's many far better examples of that paper's toxic fear-mongering.

Well as I have said in many a thread I read them all then I have a rounded view. I can see shit from clay when I read it but I take your point.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 95):
I never mentioned a left-right divide.

Alot of people do though its never that clear cut.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 95):
And did you read that book? Or anything even vaguely similar? I didn't. And if I did I'm not sure if it would have had any detrimental effect on me.

I didnt but my Sister did. My Sister was a left wing activist had posters of GLC/Jimmy Sommerville/ Pet Shop boys and Neil Kinnock and Stalin on her bedroom wall ! You get the picture. She is 5 years older than me so was 17-18 at the time. We have and never will see eye to eye but she is my Sister and I love her. I have spoken to my Mother about Margaret Thatchers death and although she didnt like her she still shows respect and does discuss her good points and take onboard a rational view. I didnt even bother to speak to my Sister on the subject.

I dont know what a book would have done to me back then at that age but I dont think I would have been better off for it. It would not have helped me I didnt have two Dads and neither did 99% of the UK population. Back then I was worried about loosing my Family and friends.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 101, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4169 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 100):
I didnt but my Sister did.

In school? Or outside of school? The distinction is important. Were schools actively promoting homosexuality at the time? Mine wasn't as far as remember (and my primary school was a state school in London).

Quoting OA260 (Reply 100):
My Sister was a left wing activist had posters of GLC/Jimmy Sommerville/ Pet Shop boys and Neil Kinnock and Stalin on her bedroom wall

Had to laugh at this. Stalin and Jimmy Somerville- the dream team!

[Edited 2013-04-09 15:22:09]


If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 99):

True story

During the minors strike, when thousands of workers out on the picket line, not getting paid and causing hardship to their families, my great aunt, saw Scargill in a luxury car dealership buying a brand new car with cash.

He has also been told he is now liable for £34000 a year rent on the Unions £1.5million apartment in London which he lives in.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlinesoJo From UK - England, joined Nov 2012, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4169 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Having read all of the above posts, I am at a loss. To all the detractors of her time in Parliament, I have this to say. She served this Country well. We will have to wait many, many years before another of her ilk will arrive on the scene to sort this Country out again. I believe it will take another woman to do this. I appreciate that we all have different feelings about how the Government of the day seemed 'ruthless'. But, please remember, that she was a very special politician, a very special Prime Minister and above all a very special Lady. Thank You Lady Thatcher and "God Speed"


RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2890 posts, RR: 8
Reply 104, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 101):
The distinction is important.

What the hell dose it matter if it was at school or outside ?

You have made your point VERY clear on where you stand regarding Thatchers death, move on !  
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 36):
Good riddance to the old bag. Friend of Pinochet, Hussein and Suharto- judge her by the company she kept.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 105, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 101):

She actually got it from school , She was in 6th form as they called it and a left wing anti Tory history teacher gave her that amongst other things. Even schools were split with politics with often teachers making their views clear which I thought was a bad thing. They were there to teach not brainwash students. The book she got was not school policy AFAIK but it was obviously available "under the counter".

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 102):

But of course thats usually the way these people roll. One thing for sure Id rather be ruled by my superiors than my inferiors! The Union leaders are rarely in it without something for themselves.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 106, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):
What the hell dose it matter if it was at school or outside ?

It's a discussion about section 28. Read up about it and you'll understand why it's relevant to whether the legislation was justified at the time.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):
You have made your point VERY clear on where you stand regarding Thatchers death, move on !

You are free to move on if you wish.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 107, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4161 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 105):
She actually got it from school , She was in 6th form as they called it and a left wing anti Tory history teacher gave her that amongst other things. Even schools were split with politics with often teachers making their views clear which I thought was a bad thing. They were there to teach not brainwash students. The book she got was not school policy AFAIK but it was obviously available "under the counter".

Interesting- was it that exact book or just something similar? What was the purpose of the history teacher giving it to her? To try and "promote" a gay agenda of some kind? Would be interesting to know.

I'm still skeptical that this was endemic, especially at an age where it might have any effect (certainly not sixth form I would think- most people I know have pretty much formed most of their social opinions by then). I can't find a whole lot of concrete examples and section 28 itself did not seem to result in many challenges to school or local authority policy.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 108, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4156 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 107):
gay agenda

The first rule of the Gay Agenda is that you don't ...  



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 109, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 108):
The first rule of the Gay Agenda is that you don't ..

That reminds me of my other favorite phrase used by some of the Christian fundamentalists, the "International Gay Mafia".

That puts a picture in my head which is probably nothing like the picture it puts in their head...... 



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8725 posts, RR: 43
Reply 110, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4136 times:

The way she tried to sabotage the reunification of my country was inexcusable. That's what I remember her for.

Kind words? I'm sorry, but none comes to mind.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 111, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 86):
But what people tend to forget is Thatcher gets lambasted for closing 22 coal mines and taking on the powerful National Union of Minors. Labour's Harold Wilson closed 93 coal mines in less time and put more people out of work

Oddly enough, most of the colliery closures of the time weren't directly the work of either politician. In North-East England, anyway, they were mainly the result of the coal being 'worked out' in most of them.

As it happens, I was brought up in the South of England, but moved to the North-East for career reasons - helping to build and promote new towns and the accompanying industrial estates to combat the high unemployment which resulted from the colliery closures. Prior to the arrival of Thatcher, both main parties supported 'aggressive' regional policies, paying out very substantial grants (up to 40% of the cost of new factories in 'Special Development Areas') - and we were making good progress. Thatcher just about abandoned those policies, substituting 'tax allowances' for grants. Given that, what with building and machinery and training costs, no new factory was likely to turn a profit for at least the first three years, 'incentives' based on tax allowances were of course largely useless - so she made my personal job a lot harder..........  

Therefore I wasn't any sort of fan of hers at the time - I can still vividly recall driving into small 'ex-mining' towns on the way to talk to the local council about the chances of developing an industrial estate, and passing queues of six or seven hundred newly-unemployed miners waiting to sign on for the dole. So I had every reason intensely to dislike Thatcher and her (very 'South of England-based') policies.........

I can give her due credit, though, for one occasion when she 'did the right thing' - sending a task force to kick the invading Argentinians out of the Falklands. I doubt that any other British politician of the time, of either main party, would have had the moral courage to take that (hugely risky) step; anyone else would have settled for some sort of messy compromise which would basically have handed Argentina the islands on a plate.........

[Edited 2013-04-10 00:05:51]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 112, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4051 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 85):
Because you're simply arguing about something you don't know a damn thing about. You may not even have been born when this was all the top news story for months.

1) I'm about the same age as you so bang goes that theory
2) I have some family who are from South Africa
3) You're not getting what I've said at all, from all I've read and heard South Africa is worse now and much closer to being a failed state than it ever has been in the past, crime is rampant, murder and rape occur at scary level, it's a country that's fast turning into another crappy failed African state, and that's undeniable.
4) So whilst black and coloured South Africans may very well have more freedoms than they had in the past they are still no better off or are in many cases far worse off than they were before. Get it.

I like disagreeing with your point, which is IMO pointless, fact Mandela was a terrorist, pure and simple, that he was later elevated to near sainthood doesn't detract from that fact.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 113, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 107):

I will have to ask her as I cant be 100% sure it was that book or another similar publication but there was an agenda amongst certain teachers and not just to do with that but left wing activism in general. I would also argue that at 17-19 people are still learning about life and politics and even myself I had different views. When I was 15-16 I was anti monarchy but since the age of around 23 I have been totally pro monarchy. I think as you get older you realise the grass is not always greener on the other side. I value tradition and Family and believe in hard work and aiming for a better life. Margaret Thatcher stood for that and for that she will always be a role model.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 114, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3963 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 112):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 85):
Because you're simply arguing about something you don't know a damn thing about. You may not even have been born when this was all the top news story for months.

1) I'm about the same age as you so bang goes that theory

Ummm no, you're not your age range tops out at 36..in 1982-85, puts you at 4-7 tops... - having the same awareness then as 4-7 year old of Egyptian politics...none.

I've a minimum of 10 years on you, but more like 15.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 112):

2) I have some family who are from South Africa
3) You're not getting what I've said at all, from all I've read and heard South Africa is worse now and much closer to being a failed state than it ever has been in the past, crime is rampant, murder and rape occur at scary level, it's a country that's fast turning into another crappy failed African state, and that's undeniable.
4) So whilst black and coloured South Africans may very well have more freedoms than they had in the past they are still no better off or are in many cases far worse off than they were before. Get it.

...really? Suddenly you have family from there...hard to believe after you ponied up and and just came clean with the truth...

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 72):
basically I don't care, I'm not South African, it's not my country.

Still, the most honest, accurate and believable post from you here.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 112):
I like disagreeing with your point, which is IMO pointless, fact Mandela was a terrorist, pure and simple, that he was later elevated to near sainthood doesn't detract from that fact.

Yes just like Washington/Jefferson/Payne in the US.. but again Mandela had a more noble cause than those three.
And I guess their sainthood doesn't detract from their terrorist taint. But it understandable that in your country American History. South African history ..it's all just one big meaningless blur in the face of NZ history.

But your "I like disagreeing..' pretty much explains your sole presence in the thread, because your statements about all else is trainwreck nonsense of your selective google searches. Bone up on the history of Human Rights..you are woefully deficient on the matter from a global perspective.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 115, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

One area as to Ms. Thatcher not discussed so far - and important for the primary subject of this site - is her affects on Airlines. Getting BA out of largely government ownership, allowing and indeed supporting Virgin Atlantic's creation, the LCC's like Ryanair, EasyJet and others, general deregulation of fares and general operations of airlines in the UK, privatizing airports in the UK. That is a part of her 'legacy' that still exists today.

User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 116, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 114):
Ummm no, you're not your age range tops out at 36..in 1982-85, puts you at 4-7 tops... - having the same awareness then as 4-7 year old of Egyptian politics...none.

Well I do know how old I am and I'm in my 40's.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 114):
...really? Suddenly you have family from there...hard to believe after you ponied up and and just came clean with the truth...

Yup have an uncle from South Africa.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 114):
but again Mandela had a more noble cause than those three.

So what if his cause was noble, he was a terrorist, as was David Ben-Gurion, as was Yasser Arafat, all people with noble causes but all were terrorists.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 117, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 112):


.

Even more disturbing and damaging to anyone with a modicum of national pride.. is being completely aware of a vital role your own nation played in a pivotal role of social change.

It was New Zealand who delivered the most stinging blow to South Africa in 1981 during the Springbok Rugby Tour.

Rugby then, was what Soccer is today (as far as the World Cup goes to many nations) .. in South Africa, the Sprinkboks were the nations pride above all else bar none. The NZ All Blacks, as popular back then...remains so to this very day. PM Muldoon having more guff that Thatcher by far yank the rug out from South Africa (over it's racist policies) and got the All Blacks - a perennial and top tier rival - to boycott and disrupt the Springboks tour. Australia, in support - refused the Springboks aircraft over-fly rights and landing rights in it's territory. This is how widespread (led by third world nations first) the global support for terrorist Mandela and the struggle of the oppressed blacks of South Africa was. This one seemingly meager blow was a huge staggering insult and a crippling sting to South Africa on the world stage - from the standpoint of respect ...in civilized world, it triggered the beginning of the end. And it was South Africa's decades long list of cruelties that made the world say - enough.

..and look who started it, New Zealand. History, ain't it bitch when you don't know it?

Thatcher had come into office in 1979 until 1990...plenty of opportunity and in the perfect position to force change, failed miserable, whatever her excuse.

The bottomline is, we can choose to continue built up our heroes in a shrine of peaches and cream and omit the parts we don't like (as America has done with too many historical figures)... and pretend it was a just dandy.

But then your kids or their children will come along upon learning substantial omitted truths and say " you lied to me (or us). You did not tell us the whole truth about this person, they were nowhere near a great as you say because of ....."

This has been an ongoing American problem for decades, too many young people rebel for this very reason - sugar coated BS'd icons paraded as having done nothing wrong - when they could have corrected huge wrongs.

I want to stomp my early grade school teachers for causing me many sleepless nights and horrid dreams over the images of General Custer being savagely slaughtered by Indians - of course, more truth emerged as I got older. But a a recent BBC production disclosed to me for the 1st time, that Custer had created a successful M.O. for rounding women & children and holding them hostage to manipulate Indian tribes to do his bidding. And that the US Gov't after 'giving' the Sioux specific lands... after the discovery of gold, sent Custer to take the land back (and they call them the "Indian Givers"). And Custer's own arrogance greatly contributed to his demise... trivial, and I could have easily obtained a copy of Maj. Reno's report/hearing review at some point and arrived at some of the truths if I dared. But the BBC episode conjured up fresh memories of a specific teacher and the mindf-ck I received that entire school year..maybe that teacher was related or lost some great grandpa to be so passionate about it the way she was. Nevertheless, educational techniques have improved, access to 'more' information is greater than ever before and more truthful accountings are possible due to the imaging & recordings of prominent figures as society advances.

Margaret Thatcher is a victim of that if you will, all those who wish to adore her always will, but they what does that say about their nature to turn a blind eye to 'areas she failed', it makes me wonder, what else will such people tune-out because 'they just don't want to know about it'... a scary notion in the digital/information age, but an expected one.

But sooner or later, we must come clean before putting someone on a glorious pedestal. We must end this traditional canonizing of individuals who do have noticeable baggage strapped to their rears ..and we must make that a visible part of the complete picture if we're going to stop bullshitting our youth and get back to earning their respect, because we can not do it if we continue lying and pretending certain things did not happen...and that begins with lying to ourselves and spreading it to others as truth.

People can handle the bad with the good as long as you come clean and upfront with them. Few people (except the racist) have a problem with Nelson Mandela for being a terrorist or a freedom fighter... if you know the history, you understand exactly why he participated in acts of sabotage and deaths in pursuit of just goals. America itself began the same exact way... except it was nowhere under the gun as the ANC/Mandela was. Mandela and the ANC could not have succeeded without enormous international support - which started with the smallest of third world nations and grew steadily as more people became aware of the injustices that drove people to terrorist acts in pursuit to justice.


BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 118, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Some more detail on the funeral arrangements:

Lady Thatcher's coffin will be transferred to the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft in the Palace of Westminster on Tuesday ahead of the ceremony.

There will be a short service following its arrival before the coffin rests in the chapel overnight.

The streets will then be cleared for a procession taking the former leader's body from parliament to Church of St Clement Danes, the RAF Chapel on the Strand.

At the church, it will be transferred to a gun carriage drawn by the King's Troop Royal Artillery.

The streets will be cleared for the procession on to St Paul's and members of all three services will line the route, as well as bands from each.

The Gun Carriage will be drawn by six horses, three of which are mounted, with a sergeant riding alongside, an officer riding in front and three dismounted troops on foot.

A Bearer Party made up of all three services will walk alongside the coffin, and will include those from ships, units and stations notable for their service during the Falklands campaign.

Outside St Paul's there will be a Guard of Honour of 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, as well as the Welsh Guards Band.

For the coffin's arrival, there will also be a Step Lining party made up of 18 personnel from all three services.

These will include six Navy, six members of the Blues and Royals, Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment, and six RAF, plus Chelsea Pensioners of the Royal Hospital Chelsea.

Ten members of staff from the Ritz, where Lady Thatcher had been staying since Christmas, have also been invited in recognition of the care she received at the hotel.

The public will not be able to attend the funeral service itself but will be able to line the route of the procession.

http://news.sky.com/story/1076315/ma...t-thatchers-son-family-overwhelmed


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 119, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

One other aspect of her time, aside from the Channel Tunnel, hardly any major infrastructure projects were approved. This carried on well into the Major era too.
(And it was the late 1990's until a proper high speed link for it was started).
The result was some severely decaying and overcrowded transport infrastructure, this has only really stated to be addressed in the past 10-15 years.
Not only would such projects have lessened the mass unemployment, helped to sustain companies, with the peak of North Sea oil revenues in her time there was a means of paying for them.

If you don't maintain properly your car or home for a period, what happens?
(Even cuts to the maintenance of the London Underground, again well into the 1990's)

With local government, she was far from democratic either.
After being harried by the Greater London Council under Ken Livingstone, she abolished it and the other major metropolitan councils for the big cities.
Just because Livingstone got under her skin - so what, his predecessors at the GLC were Tories, let the voters decide, surely?
It was claimed that it was all about spending, again, let the voters there decide.
This led to a centralisation of government power unknown prior to this in peacetime.
Making the UK one of the most centralised major democracies.
Which should not have sat well with someone so adverse to big government?

In London at least, the result was, outside of the City/Docklands, a decaying capital with a reducing population.
If you wanted to do business there, you had to deal with some 23 local authorities.
There was no focal point, no one with any great leverage, apart from, again, Whitehall.

With the elected Major - regardless that it was Ken for the first two terms- things improved in this respect.
And does anyone think London would have had a hope of getting the Olympics without the Major and his assembly?

For the other major cities, without the presence of the seat of government and the ministries the effects must have been worse still.

But then abolishing this local government was in the 1987 manifesto, after her victory then, it all stated to go wrong.
She listened to no advice, even from long time trusted confidants, her political instincts, such as with the Poll Tax, completely deserted her.
It is not a positive comment on some aspects of her personality that she never recognised just why her own party had to ditch her.
Losing her Chancellor - as she ran a rival operation complete with weird economic guru Alan Waters.
(Nigel Lawson, the Milf'y TV cook Nigella's father, who with her approval, unleashed a credit boom, this bubble starting to burst at the end of the decade. Just the sort of thing Thatcher had condemned previous governments for).
She humiliated, belittled, the one man so vital to her early period in office, Geoffrey Howe.
Many Ministers started to hate working in the government.

Thatcher was not by any means the first or on PM to lose it after a long period in office, to retreat into a bunker mentality, however her example was the most spectacular.
Her previous virtues became vices, decisiveness turned into bloody minded intransigence.
Her great focus became just narrow mindedness.
Her tight grip on the government became constant interference, undermining of ministers.

After the great challenges on the big issues of her first two terms, she looked for new great challenges to be met with the same fervour. They were not there so she created them, how the issue of local government finance became the Poll Tax, how her rebate victories in Europe became obstruction - this from the PM who signed the Single European Act.


User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 120, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 118):

A state funeral in all but name. Even the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh are attending, apparently of their own volition.

It would appear that Margaret Thatcher's non-state state funeral next Wednesday will be costing more than the investiture of King Willem-Alexander in Amsterdam on 30th April, a bash costing around €7 million.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...al-says-william-hague-8567102.html



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 121, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 119):
you don't maintain properly your car or home for a period, what happens?
(Even cuts to the maintenance of the London Underground, again well into the 1990's)

I remember the bad old days of the London Underground in the mid 90s- unfinished walkways, wires hanging down from ceilings, constant breakdowns. The Northern Line trains still had wooden window frames. The whole system was an utter embarrassment. It's astonishing how much things improved in just a few years with a bit of investment.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 122, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):

It was New Zealand who delivered the most stinging blow to South Africa in 1981 during the Springbok Rugby Tour.

You have no idea about what happened in NZ during the 81 Springbok tour, I have family members and family friends who were on both sides of the issue, one of my aunts was an early member of HART and a close family friend was a member of the Red Squad.

The majority of kiwis in 81 were really only interested in watching some good games of rugby, people like my aunt who violently opposed the tour (she was beaten and arrested in Hamilton) were shunned for a long while. They say it divided the nation but most of the nation were more interested in rugby than what was happening in South Africa.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Rugby then, was what Soccer is today (as far as the World Cup goes to many nations) .. in South Africa, the Sprinkboks were the nations pride above all else bar none.

They still are amongst the white population, rugby is also a growing sport amongst the black population as well.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
PM Muldoon having more guff that Thatcher by far yank the rug out from South Africa (over it's racist policies) and got the All Blacks - a perennial and top tier rival - to boycott and disrupt the Springboks tour.

The New Zealand govt and Muldoon did not stop or boycott the tour the tour went ahead, they gave permission for it, you obviously have no idea of what happened. Only two games were stopped the Hamilton game where my aunt was arrested and the Timaru game, both were against provincial unions, the Auckland test was disrupted due to some tool dropping a flower bomb on the pitch at Eden Park, a stupid move which could have killed someone.

A lot of the violent protesting was done by a hard core element of HART protesters and a large number of people who just wanted to have a go at the police, protesting the tour wasn't on the second groups agenda at all.

Quote:
Muldoon argued that New Zealand was a free and democratic country, and that "politics should stay out of sport."


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 123, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 120):
It would appear that Margaret Thatcher's non-state state funeral next Wednesday will be costing more than the investiture of King Willem-Alexander in Amsterdam on 30th April, a bash costing around €7 million.

Well as David Cameron pointed out she saved us £75BN in the EU rebate so money is not an issue when it comes to her funeral.  
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 121):
It's astonishing how much things improved in just a few years with a bit of investment.

London 2012 my friend London 2012   Without it many areas would still be run down.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 124, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3753 times:



Quoting kiwirob (Reply 122):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Rugby then, was what Soccer is today (as far as the World Cup goes to many nations) .. in South Africa, the Sprinkboks were the nations pride above all else bar none.

They still are amongst the white population, rugby is also a growing sport amongst the black population as well.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything... you honestly do not get a shred of the context and meaning of any of this .. do you? I'm completely stunned at this comment about something having such impact.


Quoting kiwirob (Reply 122):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):

It was New Zealand who delivered the most stinging blow to South Africa in 1981 during the Springbok Rugby Tour.

You have no idea about what happened in NZ during the 81 Springbok tour, I have family members and family friends who were on both sides of the issue, one of my aunts was an early member of HART and a close family friend was a member of the Red Squad.

The majority of kiwis in 81 were really only interested in watching some good games of rugby, people like my aunt who violently opposed the tour (she was beaten and arrested in Hamilton) were shunned for a long while. They say it divided the nation but most of the nation were more interested in rugby than what was happening in South Africa.

..and you know what, great credit goes to the relatives who believed in something so strongly that they endured hardships to make a point... they believed in something 'right and just'..

You stand to learn a lot from people like this.. you should take the advantage of them while they are here and look at the news reports and compare since you weren't there... instead of walking around completely unaware of your nations' role amid a pivotal social change - whether you agree with it or not.

BN747

[Edited 2013-04-10 14:18:30]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 125, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 123):
Well as David Cameron pointed out she saved us £75BN in the EU rebate so money is not an issue when it comes to her funeral

You mght find that it William Hague was who pointed that out.

A very large chunk of money, GBP 75 billion.

However, she was a politician who never won the votes of more than a third of the electorate; destroyed communities; created mass unemployment; deindustrialised Britain; redistributed from poor to rich; and, by her deregulation of the City, laid the basis for the crisis that has engulfed us 25 years later.

In that light, GBP 75 billion is not quite such a large chunk of money.



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 126, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 123):
London 2012 my friend London 2012   Without it many areas would still be run down.

I'm talking about earlier than that- during the mid-to late nineties. There was an improvement because of the Olympics as well, but I wasn't in the UK during that time.

Weirdly I'm having the hardest time finding figures to show investment in the Underground over time, but from my recollection things improved dramatically during the Major years and only started slipping again in the early 2000s.

Of course fares also rose during the same time, but annoyingly I can't find figures on those either. My googling skills are poor today.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 127, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3712 times:

Amazing how so many ignorant people spout about "shutting down industries" and "promoting the City". She did none of that. She simply stood out of the way, as government is supposed to do, and let chips fall where they may. If you want to run a failing coal mine digging a tapped out seam go right ahead, just do it with your own money, not mine. Same, if you want to run a successful financial institution. The changes (for the better) in the economic landscape of Britain were not by design, as they shouldn't be, as she understood government should not be designing an economy, but merely a natural consequence of letting industries develop or die according to their competitive advantages (or disadvantages).


Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2594 posts, RR: 7
Reply 128, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3706 times:

Quite an incredible speech by MP (and former actress) Glenda Jackson against Thatcher.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2013/04...tcherism-reeked.html#disqus_thread

I'll say that although I was in high school at the time, I sadly wasn't politically active.

All I know is that I despised Reagan, and she was slobbering all over his jock.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 129, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

What a ghastly spectacle the funeral of Thatcher is becoming. The Tories are milking Thatcher's sad demise for all it is worth. Recalling Parliament to "pay tribute" and a state funeral in all but name seems a bit over the top for someone who divided rather than unified the country. But all this enthusiasm does allow the Government to deflect attention from more sensitive issues.

That this is a display and fanfare of Tory values is made no clearer than by the name given to the event: Operation True Blue.

There is an irony in a Prime Minister who was so enthusiastic about cutting public expenditure, and who was so frugal as to deny any special payments to Scottish widows freezing during an exceptionally cold winter, having such a lavish tax payer funded celebration. Espousing her "Victorian values" of prudence and thrift, I would have expected her to put some money aside for her cremation or interment. No doubt she would be horrified at the unnecessary waste.

For a person so dedicated to privatisation and personal responsibility, and loathing scroungers, this publicly funded extravagance is almost insulting to her. But the show will draw together the Party faithful and allow the present Prime Minister to bask in reflected glory.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 130, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3691 times:

Quoting johnboy (Reply 128):
Quite an incredible speech by MP (and former actress) Glenda Jackson against Thatcher.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2013/04...tcherism-reeked.html#disqus_thread

I'll say that although I was in high school at the time, I sadly wasn't politically active.

All I know is that I despised Reagan, and she was slobbering all over his jock.

  

Boy, no exaggeration there!

That speech really summed up Thatcherism...!

Quoting Jackson from the link -
"...greed, selfishness became the standard.
Homeless exploded from the closure Mental facilities, the doorways of every business became the bedrooms, living rooms bathrooms of the homeless."

An anonymous comment from the same..

"Wow, that was f**king brilliant...

But what's kind of depressing is that she could just as easily be describing the effects of Reaganomics in the United States - particularly the elevation of greed and selfishness to virtues and the abandonment of the social contract.

The difference is that we still have vast swaths of the population here that still support psychopathy as a political philosophy."


I couldn't have said it better, that is the exact damage Reagan left in his wake, plus illegally selling weapons to Iran, firing the entire Air Traffic Controllers ranks, Savings and Loans scandals, even massive fraud under his Housing Urban Development dept., Education funding slashing, Greneda and El Salvador fubars, no retaliation to 270+ Marines killed in Beirut and the despicable Attorney General/Porn Crusader Edwin Meese - and that's off the top of my head.

Thatcher's fighting for the Apartheid Gov't of South Africa was my main charge against her..but after hearing Ms Jackson speak...she really was Reagan's equal.. no wonder they got a long so well.

Given the human damage and cost...I cannot bring myself to say R.I.P. ...that's reserved for those who deserve to.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 131, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 127):
Amazing how so many ignorant people spout about "shutting down industries" and "promoting the City". She did none of that. She simply stood out of the way, as government is supposed to do, and let chips fall where they may.

It was nowhere near as simple as that, favoured industries were still subsidised.

One thing I do remember, my parents were not Tory voters, neither were they political, one thing my Mum said in the late 1980's stuck in my mind though.
On the news there was a report about the large numbers of homeless, mostly young, mostly who came from the economically devastated regions (doing what Norman Tebbit advised, 'getting on their bike and finding a job' - or trying to find, outside of the City London had high unemployment too).

Mum said 'we used to be proud of living in a country where people did not have to sleep on the streets'.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 132, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 124):
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything

Then why did you bring it up it it has NOTHING to do with anything. Clearly you don't understand the place rugby has in NZ society or amongst South Africans.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 129):
and a state funeral in all but name

I think all former UK PM's get a state funeral, they do in NZ as well.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 130):
Thatcher's fighting for the Apartheid Gov't of South Africa was my main charge against her

She didn't fight for apartheid, she fought for British interests in South Africa, which is what a govt is supposed to do, sanctions against South Africa hurt those interests. I think she was right to put the financial well being of British taxpayers and corporations first. Especially in light of the mess South Africa has become under the ANC.

[Edited 2013-04-11 01:54:13]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 133, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 125):
You mght find that it William Hague was who pointed that out.

They actually both did . I saw an interview with Cameron and read a newspaper about William Hagues quote also.

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 125):
destroyed communities;

She improved many including mine. So I guess you win some you loose some as with anything in life.

For people that were willing to better themselves through education and hard work she offered opportunity. The local Labour councils at the time when I was growing up were too busy spending money on signs in the libraries in Gujurati.Urdu and the like instead of getting people to integrate and learn English. It was all about accommodating rather than integrating a lot of issues we see today in certain areas are due to Labours policies. I can only talk from a personal level on personal experience living in the UK at the time.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 134, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

Quoting johnboy (Reply 128):
All I know is that I despised Reagan, and she was slobbering all over his jock.

Thatcher definitely wore the trousers in that relationship.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 130):
Given the human damage and cost

You should be more concerned about the human damage and cost that would have occurred if she wasn't in charge.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 23
Reply 135, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Who's doing the funeral? Leverton & Sons or the corporate owned Kenyon's?


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinevc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1412 posts, RR: 16
Reply 136, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

At the top of the "non Aviation " page it says "Do not post here unless you are capable of expressing yourself in a civilized manner". Therefore could I suggest we adhere to this request

Now getting back to the original topic , well I lived in the UK prior to , during, and since Maggie was in power.
Did she do everything correct , well no is the simple answer , but I think what many people admire in her was that for years people in the UK were asking for strong government and Maggie sure did give us a strong government and did things which should have been done years if not decades earlier . Because of this things had to be done over a short period of time and people and communities were hurt and damaged by it. Her biggest mistake was not really having a plan to help these communities once their industries closed down.

I would say I was a supporter of Maggie but I have to say that I think the large funeral arrangements are a bit over the top

littlevc10


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 137, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3390 times:

Some of the high profile figures attending the funeral next Wednesday :

Downing Street said that among those who had confirmed their attendance were: Tony and Cherie Blair; FW de Klerk; Dame Shirley Bassey; Jeremy Clarkson; Lord and Lady Lloyd Webber; Lord and Lady Archer, and Lord Carrington.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...rgaret-thatcher-funeral-guest-list

Im glad Dame Shirley Bassey is attending. A true lady .


User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 138, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 137):
Some of the high profile figures attending the funeral next Wednesday :

Beyond Former US Sec. of State Hillary Clinton, who will represent the US Government? Will President Obama and the First Lady attend or will the VP or present Sec State Kerry or just our Ambassador to the UK ?

Despite how one feels about Ms. Thatcher and her decisions as PM, the disputes as to her funeral, the nastiness of some as to her death is very unfortunate. Save the energy from your anger against her and direct it in a better way to helping your neighbor and neighborhood,


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2890 posts, RR: 8
Reply 139, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3291 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 137):
Some of the high profile figures attending the funeral next Wednesday :

As will be John Howard, former PM of Australia, who was a great fan of the Baroness.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/howard-m...atcher-funeral-20130412-2hp3g.html

Quoting OA260 (Reply 137):
Lord and Lady Archer,

When did he get out of Jail ?

Still, I suppose anyone can attend a funeral.  Wow!



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 140, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3281 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 132):
I think all former UK PM's get a state funeral,

It is common for a Memorial Service to be held for former Prime Ministers but that is not the same as a State or Ceremonial Funeral. In the UK State Funerals are normally reserved for the Sovereign as Head of State, although Ceremonial Funerals are provided for spouses of the sovereign.

Affording State Funerals to people outside of the Royal Family is rare - the last one being in 1965 for the funeral of Sir Winston Churchill. The Ceremonial Funeral being provided for Thatcher is the first during the reign of the present monarch that will have been provided to a person who was not a member of the Royal family.

The only people who have received a Ceremonial Funeral during Queen Elizabeth II's reign are Queen Mary, Earl Mountbatten of Burma, Diana Princess of Wales and Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.


User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 32
Reply 141, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

Her detractors are sending the BBC into a tizzy:
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...garet-thatchers-death-8566042.html

I was working on Monday morning when the news came through, and I passed on the news to a 22-year-old girl working beside me. She looked at me quizzically and said "Who's that?"

Whether people liked her or not, she WAS elected three times . . .

Two of her most memorable quote, IMHO: "Everybody needs a Willie", and "The pearls are non-negotiable".


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 142, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 141):
Her detractors are sending the BBC into a tizzy:

You know I think the BBC should not play it because its clear the intention and aimed to hurt. People tend to forget she has two children and a wider Family who are grieving and would anyone else like their parents or loved ones to be afforded the same treatment. Just goes to show how far society has fallen.

--

UPDATE :

The BBC has said it will not play Ding, Dong The Witch Is Dead in full during this weekend's chart show.

The Wizard Of Oz song has been climbing the music download charts after an online campaign encouraged opponents of Margaret Thatcher to buy it.

The BBC said in a statement that it "finds this campaign distasteful but does not believe the record should be banned.

http://news.sky.com/story/1077388/bb...nt-play-anti-thatcher-song-in-full

[Edited 2013-04-12 08:12:17]

User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 32
Reply 143, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3174 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 142):
You know I think the BBC should not play it because its clear the intention and aimed to hurt. People tend to forget she has two children and a wider family who are grieving and would anyone else like their parents or loved ones to be afforded the same treatment. Just goes to show how far society has fallen.

Interesting dilemma and I'm of two minds here: while it is in bad taste, freedom of speech and censorship are also involved, so they're probably hitting a sensible middle ground by just playing a snippet.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 144, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 143):
Interesting dilemma and I'm of two minds here: while it is in bad taste, freedom of speech and censorship are also involved, so they're probably hitting a sensible middle ground by just playing a snippet.

Yes I agree as much as its sick I guess a snippet is better than the full thing and especially if they dont make a fuss and dont mention it. Probably the best way. I just hope the funeral passes off with no major incident. There will be enough troops and police there to deal with the thugs anyway. There is a time and a place for everything and a funeral is or at least should be where people shut their mouth and let the Family and friends have their time.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 145, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3087 times:

For those who doubted New Zealand treading where the late Thatcher could have... but selfishly dared not...

...here it is.

http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/patu-1983/background#critique_0

For those those who doubted the impact that a bunch of righteous Kiwi stirrers could have on the internal politics of a country half a world away, a salient fact should be remembered. 25 African countries boycotted the 1976 Montreal Olympics to protest that the International Olympic Committee hadn't banned New Zealand (for its rugby links with with South Africa); a fact swept under the carpet by pro-tour advocates. The reverberation of the 1981 protests is captured in Leanne Pooley's documentary Try Revolution (2006).

and Try Revolution

http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/try-revolution-2006

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 146, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Baroness Thatcher’s detailed funeral instructions to PM revealed

Baroness Thatcher requested for Britain’s serving prime minister to deliver a reading at her funeral, it has emerged.

Britain’s first female prime minister, who died earlier this week from a stroke aged 87, laid down detailed instructions before her death as the how the service should proceed.

More than 2,000 invites have been sent out for next Wednesday’s service at St Paul’s Cathedral, which begins at 11am.

She also specified a number of hymns to be sung, among them the patriotic I Vow to Thee, My Country.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/04/13/barone...structions-to-pm-revealed-3614448/


A great choice of hymn , I love that one. Seems to be a very traditional service and a reading by her Granddaughter which is fitting.


User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3868 posts, RR: 1
Reply 147, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Quoting andrej (Thread starter):

The death of Mrs. Thatcher is a loss to the British people indeed. However, IMO a bigger loss occurred on the same day, the death of actress and singer Annette Funicello. While the Iron Lady might have been a prime minster, she was never a mousekeeter. Mrs. Thatcher never bagged Frankie Avalon, he got scooped up by Annette!


RIP to both...

[Edited 2013-04-13 02:14:35]


Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 148, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2894 times:

Farewell, Iron Lady, RIP. The world is worse off without you. You made a difference in the world, and I will always respect you for that.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 149, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 146):
More than 2,000 invites have been sent out for next Wednesday’s service at St Paul’s Cathedral, which begins at 11am.

And Obama decided that the state funeral of one of America's greatest allies is not worth sending an official representative.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-leaves-old-allies-Reagan-era.html

Fail.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8725 posts, RR: 43
Reply 150, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 149):
And Obama decided that the state funeral of one of America's greatest allies is not worth sending an official representative.

He is sending official representatives. Just none that is currently serving in the US government.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 151, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 149):
state funeral

It isn't a state funeral, even though the Queen has decided to attend to pay her respects.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 152, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 149):
And Obama decided that the state funeral of one of America's greatest allies is not worth sending an official representative.

It's not a state funeral, though it looks much like one and is, in my view, a bit over the top.
Whatever you thought of her, good or ill, she was not Winston Churchill, who did in effect have a state funeral in 1965.
Since he led a genuine wartime Coalition, in a unique situation of great, existential danger.
In effect he was not a party leader for the duration of the European war.
Churchill, the key to his success remember, united the nation as much as you could in a country of strong democratic traditions. He was still answerable to Parliament however.

I do think Thatcher does deserve, for her length of service and being the first Woman PM, more than a normal funeral.
But 700 service-personnel? They don't swear their oath to any PM, it's to Her Majesty, her heirs and successors.
Not the PM at the time.
However that line was blurred more than once in her time in office.

The Queen choose to attend, she was under no constitutional obligation.
As far as you can tell, The Queen did not have the most easy relationship with Maggie, compared to some other of her PM's, (interestingly she seems to have got on best with two Labour ones, Wilson and Callaghan). It's said however, that The Queen was fascinated by Maggie.
The Monarch will be there to recognise Maggie's historical precedents, maybe too, with a bit of sisterhood?

Sourcing the Daily Mail is not a good idea either, it's kept up an absurd, hysterical, shrieking , even by their standards, commentary on this subject since her death was announced, with a tone more akin to religious fanatics accusing others of heresy.
Anyone that is not signed up to the idea that Thatcher was the greatest PM next to Churchill, or ever and does not demonstrate this every waking hour.
Like it or not, Thatcher DID seriously divide this country.

A lot of people abroad don't understand this about Thatcher, why should they? It's domestic UK politics after all.

How people choose to mark her death and funeral is up to them, unless it upsets others.
I cannot agree with the idea of street parties, or loud demos, since whatever I think about her, we are talking about an 87 year old women who died after a long period of illness, including dementia.
I don't personally believe in Earthly or heavenly gods, whatever Maggie was, she was flesh and blood, not a deity.
The Daily Mail should be a newspaper and cut the proselytising.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2890 posts, RR: 8
Reply 153, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 151):
It isn't a state funeral, even though the Queen has decided to attend to pay her respects.

The Queen can go to ANY funeral she likes, even for a commoner.

It dose not have to be a "State Funeral" for a Monarch to attend.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 154, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 153):
The Queen can go to ANY funeral she likes, even for a commoner.

Point out where I said otherwise, if you're going to take the time to make a post to call me out about it.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 155, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 153):
The Queen can go to ANY funeral she likes, even for a commoner.

Although true, it is extremely rare for the Queen to attend the funerals of former politicians. Indeed the funeral for Thatcher will be the first one of a Prime Minister since she attended the State Funeral of Churchill in 1965. Seven other Prime Ministers have died since and their funerals were quite simple affairs. That of Clement Atlee in 1967, for example, had only 170 attendees, including the then Prime Minister, Harold Wilson.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20732 posts, RR: 62
Reply 156, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

Live BBC coverage on the web has begun:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22151589



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27111 posts, RR: 60
Reply 157, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 156):

Yes very good so far Im travelling today so watching it on my iPhone in the lounge. Hopefully the flight im on will have the wifi working so I can watch the service inflight.


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1267 posts, RR: 1
Reply 158, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

I have to say that I love all the ceremony of this. You know all the marching, the Queen's Guard, cavalry etc.

My thoughts are with Mrs Thatcher's family and friends.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
And thanks to the divestment of British Leyland, her funeral procession stands a great chance of reaching its destination with no breakdowns.

   The truest statement in this thread so far! I have to say though that the hearse (old generation Jaguar XJ) looks horribly disproportionate - more so than most hearses.

[Edited 2013-04-17 02:02:50]


Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.