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With Police In Schools, More Children In Court...  
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/ed...gewanted=all&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB

This article does gave a good point. With cops in schools educators and administrators are going to use them for cases of student misconduct. Putting kids through the court system at such an early age is not a good idea. There was a recent case in NYC where a little girl in elementary school was caught doodling on her desk with a crayon. The principal somehow determined that this was a serious matter to warrant the police and the little girl subsequently ended up in handcuffs.


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
Putting kids through the court system at such an early age is not a good idea. There was a recent case in NYC where a little girl in elementary school was caught doodling on her desk with a crayon. The principal somehow determined that this was a serious matter to warrant the police and the little girl subsequently ended up in handcuffs.

Welcome to the USA.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
With cops in schools educators and administrators are going to use them for cases of student misconduct.

My opinion is that this should be a point of discretion for the police officer. He is not there to maintain school discipline, he's there to provide some level of security.

If a teacher or administrator can not maintain routine school discipline within the class without using the police, someone needs to look hard at those folks and make a determination as to whether they are capable of doing their jobs.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
The principal somehow determined that this was a serious matter to warrant the police and the little girl subsequently ended up in handcuffs.

If the US court system allows for this, then you guys have much bigger problems to worry about than this !  Wow!  Wow!
Quoting something (Reply 1):
Welcome to the USA.

  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
My opinion is that this should be a point of discretion for the police officer.

Not on your life !

Who says a police office has the "intelligence" to decide such matters.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
If a teacher or administrator can not maintain routine school discipline within the class without using the police, someone needs to look hard at those folks and make a determination as to whether they are capable of doing their jobs.

  



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
If a teacher or administrator can not maintain routine school discipline within the class without using the police, someone needs to look hard at those folks and make a determination as to whether they are capable of doing their jobs.

And when a teacher hands out discipline, they are reprimanded or fired or sued by the parent because their precious child is not a threat. It is not teachers are not capable, it is that they are not allowed to do their jobs because children run the schools.

I am in junior college. You would not believe how many students around me are texting and facebooking and working on other class assignments and doing whatever. Only one teacher I have encountered actually cares enough to kick out students doing that. Not that it mattered because he took a dry subject and made it fun.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1844 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
And when a teacher hands out discipline,


I think you're not looking at the same definition of discipline that I am:

A state of order based on submission to rules and authority: a teacher who demanded discipline in the classroom.

not:

Punishment intended to correct or train.

I'll repeat: if a teacher or administration is not capable of maintaining an environment of learning without using the police, that teacher or the administration needs to be replaced.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Who says a police office has the "intelligence" to decide such matters.


Bull. Police have a wide arc of discretion as to when they should involve "the system". It's one thing for a teacher to ask a police officer to address the class, a group of students or an individual; though I think that undermines the teacher's authority and is ultimately a failure of the teacher; it is a completely other thing for the police officer to act on the advise of a teacher or administrator and arrest a student for some minor act that should have been handled "in house" through the normal school process.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
I'll repeat: if a teacher or administration is not capable of maintaining an environment of learning without using the police, that teacher or the administration needs to be replaced.

I stand by my assertion. When a child is told s/he is a disruption and needs to see the principal, that child goes home, complains to mom or dad or whoever their adult supervisor is. Giving only their view on what happened, the adult supervisor rushed in to the school with lawyers and screams about the child being a victim and the school is told to cease and desist. Schools are so afraid of being sued, they simply do nothing.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
Police have a wide arc of discretion as to when they should involve "the system".

I have seen police go after people who smell like pot but leave drunks alone. Which is more dangerous? Some police seem to think pot heads are.

I would say that all over northern California, police really don't care as long as people are not driving or harassing others.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
it is a completely other thing for the police officer to act on the advise of a teacher or administrator and arrest a student for some minor act that should have been handled "in house" through the normal school process.

And that's exactly my point.

It should not be up to a "teacher or administrator" to "advise" a police officer as to what action to take against a student.

Just as it shouldn't be up to a police officer to act as "judge and jury" over a particular incident involving a student...

Leave it up to the proper authorities to decide that.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
I have seen police go after people who smell like pot but leave drunks alone. Which is more dangerous? Some police seem to think pot heads are.

Precisely.

I doubt many cops have the ability to decide whats worthy of "going after" as you have just highlighted in the above statement, whats worse, the drugs or the booze ?



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1754 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
Leave it up to the proper authorities to decide that.

If not the police, who are the proper authorities?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
I doubt many cops have the ability to decide whats worthy of "going after" as you have just highlighted in the above statement, whats worse, the drugs or the booze ?

Really? It's what we employ them to do: arrest folks that have committed a crime. That means that they have to have the ability to distinguish between a crime (drug use) and a non-crime (alcohol use). Why else does a police department exist? To protect you?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
It's what we employ them to do: arrest folks that have committed a crime. That means that they have to have the ability to distinguish between a crime (drug use) and a non-crime (alcohol use).

In some states, yes, it is still a crime to possess a small amount of a plant. How does that help anyone to throw them in jail? I get that they are breaking the law in those states and need to be punished. But, I think some police are starting to think that what consenting adults do in the privacy of their home is no one's business and those same officers know that those consenting adults need to venture out to purchase those products. So, they look the other way. Some things are just not worth it.

My brosband has a state issued card to purchase and possess pot in California. Not in Idaho. However, in Boise, the police have done nothing to him. There were police around who knew that smell and did nothing. In eastern Idaho, they are more strict and actually arrested him. Likewise, anywhere in Oregon, no officers who knew what was going on did nothing. Nevada, same thing. I think officers assess the situation and figure what is more important: going after a single user or going after a serial law breaker?

Getting back to the real issue: Why do school teachers need to try to discipline kids? Kids should know respect from their parents.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5654 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

Quoting something (Reply 1):
Welcome to the USA.
Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
NYC

Don't compare the city that wants to ban sodas with the rest of the US.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 9):
Why do school teachers need to try to discipline kids? Kids should know respect from their parents.


Again, I use the word discipline as a way to refer to "maintain order", not "smack the kid around" to gain compliance.

Teachers have to maintain order in a class because kids are kids and, regardless of their upbringing, when you get a bunch of kids together they will reach some critical mass unless the teacher constantly reinforces class order. Yes, you can see a difference between kids whose parents are involved and those whose parents aren't, but kids will be kids.

I see every time I'm in the classroom. Actually, it's interesting to see. I've been participating in Junior Achievement sessions for six years and can see where the K-2 kids are much easier to keep under control. The higher grades require a lot more input from the teacher to keep the class focused.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineStarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1612 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Giving only their view on what happened, the adult supervisor rushed in to the school with lawyers and screams about the child being a victim and the school is told to cease and desist. Schools are so afraid of being sued, they simply do nothing.


We can blame all that on lawyers and a general lack of common sense. Most parents let the schools raise their children since they do not know how then get uppity when the school actually tries to instill some discipline in them.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
I have seen police go after people who smell like pot but leave drunks alone. Which is more dangerous? Some police seem to think pot heads are.


Last I checked pot is still illegal and alcohol is legal, so I can see why the police officer did what he did.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8571 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1598 times:

An obvious, but little-known fact is: if you live in a high crime area, and have frequent police contact, you are more likely to be arrested. Not because of your race; not because of your age. Also not because you are more likely to use drugs and alcohol. It's because you are in the police viewfinder.

Police arrest people whom they see. In rich neighborhoods, police are not there, so kids using drugs are not arrested on felony charges. Certainly in my school, we would never call the cops. It would take a lot of trouble for parents to bring enough heat on the DA to drop the case, although I have NO doubt the DA would do so. Different strokes.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1596 times:

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 12):
Last I checked pot is still illegal and alcohol is legal, so I can see why the police officer did what he did.

This is police deciding which laws to enforce. There are officers who, knowing pot is illegal, will let pot heads wander about. I have my own opinions about it, but I think the western states are doing the right thing and leaving people with small amounts alone.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
I use the word discipline as a way to refer to "maintain order", not "smack the kid around" to gain compliance.

Yes. But, even using that definition, parents still get outraged and threaten to sue schools when a teacher decides that a child is too disruptive and needs to talk to the principal.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1584 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
I am in junior college. You would not believe how many students around me are texting and facebooking and working on other class assignments and doing whatever. Only one teacher I have encountered actually cares enough to kick out students doing that. Not that it mattered because he took a dry subject and made it fun.

Yes, this is different at a college (junior, etc.). While disrespectful to the instructor, it's not really not the same thing as similar behavior in K12 education. Furthermore, I don't see that this is the type of behavior referenced.



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1580 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
My opinion is that this should be a point of discretion for the police officer.

Not on your life !

Who says a police office has the "intelligence" to decide such matters.

you mean like the Sgt. in Port Canaveral who brought target's resembling the kid Trayvon Martin to a shooting range. Or the cops who taser children. If any of you support this... you'll stop as soon as it happens to your kid.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
Police arrest people whom they see. In rich neighborhoods, police are not there, so kids using drugs are not arrested on felony charges. Certainly in my school, we would never call the cops. It would take a lot of trouble for parents to bring enough heat on the DA to drop the case, although I have NO doubt the DA would do so. Different strokes.

Precisely, in wealthy neighborhoods ..none of this crap will fly - ever!

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently onlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6109 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1556 times:
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Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
With cops in schools educators and administrators are going to use them for cases of student misconduct. Putting kids through the court system at such an early age is not a good idea. There was a recent case in NYC where a little girl in elementary school was caught doodling on her desk with a crayon. The principal somehow determined that this was a serious matter to warrant the police and the little girl subsequently ended up in handcuffs.

She must have been doing more than just doodling.... However I have read about this issue in our union magazine (which I usually disagree with). Many times kids are getting in trouble for things and getting put in the criminal justice system because the police officer is there or because laws make us report everything. An example would be that here in Michigan we are required to notify the police if we catch a student smoking on school grounds. A teacher or administrator who doesn't call the cops can get in trouble too. Ten years ago if you caught a kid smoking and brought him to the office this is what would happen: call home, 1 day suspension for first offense. Now that same thing happens but we are required to call the cops and have them issued a citation for violating the states smoke free school zone law.

Fights in high school are always going to be around, but does anyone need to go to jail? not usually, but if a cop is around you bet he will be hauling somebody in because his job requires him to do that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
If a teacher or administrator can not maintain routine school discipline within the class without using the police, someone needs to look hard at those folks and make a determination as to whether they are capable of doing their jobs.

Depends on the discipline needed. Back when I worked in a Detroit high school there were issues with gangs, drugs, weapons, robbery (usually stolen money or drugs) and car theft that all needed a police officer. I don't care how good of a teacher you are, if a kid comes to school to sell drugs (given to him by his parent to sell) you can't use traditional school discipline methods to fix that.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
I stand by my assertion. When a child is told s/he is a disruption and needs to see the principal, that child goes home, complains to mom or dad or whoever their adult supervisor is. Giving only their view on what happened, the adult supervisor rushed in to the school with lawyers and screams about the child being a victim and the school is told to cease and desist. Schools are so afraid of being sued, they simply do nothing.

Depends on the kid. Oddly I see that kind of crap more often with children's mothers. When i see a parent coming into the school and yelling at an administrator it is almost always a woman. I guess moms put up with more crap from their kids than dads. Most kids still get good parenting at home, at least where I teach now.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
Or the cops who taser children.

Sometimes they need tasered and what determines a child? Some would say under 18. I worked at a high school in Detroit where a 16 year old student came at a police officer with a knife, the officer said that if the student continued to advance on him with a knife he would be tasered, he said it twice. The student ran at the officer and he hit him with the taser. The situation was resolved. If that kid stabbed the police officer there would have been shooting. I'll take the taser any day.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
In rich neighborhoods, police are not there

They are there, there just usually isn't as many. The police will come if you call them. Every week the community where I work in Michigan publishes the number of crimes reported the previous week. This past week there were 17 crimes, which is VERY high for this town, usually it is less than 10. Even at 17 that is probably less crime than is reported in Detroit in 10 minutes.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
I see every time I'm in the classroom. Actually, it's interesting to see. I've been participating in Junior Achievement sessions for six years and can see where the K-2 kids are much easier to keep under control. The higher grades require a lot more input from the teacher to keep the class focused.

K-2 is easy. That is why there really isn't that big of problem finding good teachers for those grades. 7-12 is much more difficult and good teachers can be hard to find in some of the tougher subject areas, or im areas that attract a lot of rough customers. I would say that 11-12 grade is the toughest to control. At that age many of them aren't afraid of going to the principal's office or even getting in trouble at home. Also at that age you may have to deal with different things. A 2nd grader won't come and tell you that her boyfriend only said he loved her so he could have sex with her and want advice. (if they did you now have a lot more to deal with). You aren't going to get a 1st grader ask about what they should do because they think they have an STD, but don't want their mom and dad to know. You aren't likely to get a kindergartner who collects money to buy drugs for a number of students and then steals their money. Then you have a gang of people fighting in the hall and nobody will say why they are mad at each other. High schools are a den of problems, even the best ones in the best neighborhoods. There are things that go on here that most kids don't even know about.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Don't compare the city that wants to ban sodas with the rest of the US.

I always joke around with a New Yorker friend of mine that NYC should be a different country because it is far more terrible than the rest of the USA. He says that NYC should be its own country because it's better than the rest of the USA.  

[Edited 2013-04-15 12:23:01]


My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1545 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
Depends on the discipline needed. Back when I worked in a Detroit high school there were issues with gangs, drugs, weapons, robbery (usually stolen money or drugs) and car theft that all needed a police officer. I don't care how good of a teacher you are, if a kid comes to school to sell drugs (given to him by his parent to sell) you can't use traditional school discipline methods to fix that.

But, those are situations that clearly require police intervention. I'm not referring to those situations. I'm referring to the "run of the mill" disruptive student (if such a student still exists) that gets referred to a police officer instead of going through the "normal" school process, whatever that may be.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
you mean like the Sgt. in Port Canaveral who brought target's resembling the kid Trayvon Martin to a shooting range.

So, you're going to impugn an entire profession because of this guy? Or even 10 guys like that?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8571 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1527 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
They are there, there just usually isn't as many. The police will come if you call them.

Yes, they will come when called for. They show up quickly and are glad to help affluent residents catch robbers and occasional bad people. Nice streets call infrequently, treat police as friends and pay the lion's share of their salaries too.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1507 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
But, those are situations that clearly require police intervention. I'm not referring to those situations. I'm referring to the "run of the mill" disruptive student (if such a student still exists) that gets referred to a police officer instead of going through the "normal" school process, whatever that may be.

And that's what I meant.

Some things are just better handled by teachers, not police......

Way over the top if police are called to deal with "discipline" issues inside the class room.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently onlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6109 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1463 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
Way over the top if police are called to deal with "discipline" issues inside the class room.

I agree, unless it is criminal behavior, which can be common at a high school, especially in low income areas.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
They show up quickly and are glad to help affluent residents catch robbers and occasional bad people.

Which is what they are paid to do. They do that in not so affluent areas too, like where I live.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
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