Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Addicts Shoot Up In Safe Haven In Canada  
User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

I came across this article today and at first it struck me as a little outrageous; a place where drug addicts are able to bring their own drugs and are provided a private place to use, clean needles, and oversight from a nurse on staff in case of overdose. I'm sure this will bring up a lively debate.

CNN Article

Just as an aside and having personally known a few addicts, I've come to realize that addiction isn't just some habit you can kick like if you're trying to stop drinking soda or eating fast food. One friend who is now on the straight and narrow described it as your brain rewiring itself to require drugs as intensely as a normal person requires oxygen to breathe You spend every day needing it all the time, and if you don't have it you will do almost anything to get it as soon as possible.

Personally, I have to say that I fully support these places. Having people just not shooting up drugs would be optimal, but it's not realistic. The cost to provide an on site nurse and clean needles to junkies who are going to shoot up no matter what is always going to be less than the cost for our healthcare system to treat someone who contracts HIV or Hepatitis from sharing needles for the rest of their lives. The area of Vancouver this clinic is located in previously had HIV and HepC rates of epidemic proportions, rivalling those of 3rd world countries. Not only that, but it takes the actual drug using out of the streets and alleys and puts it behind closed doors.

This article doesn't mention it, but I read elsewhere that there is also a rehabilitation centre on the second floor of this place. Now I am not pro-legalisation, but I think addicts caught using (and only using, i.e. not people who have also committed violent crimes) who want to change should be given the opportunity to get their life together by entering a rehab program instead of having a mandatory minimum sentence thrown at them- it is a medical issue, not a criminal one. As a tax paying citizen I would much rather have my money funding programs to rehabilitate and make people functioning members of society so they can get the hell out of the system and take care of themselves, rather than to ignore the underlying issues, pay for court date after court date, years of incarceration (which can be up to $25k per year per prisoner), and the eventual revolving door situation that happens when you release a destitute and desperate addict from jail and they go back to the only life they know that isn't jail, which is drug abuse. Or they die. That hasn't solved anything.

I'm curious to hear what people from other countries thoughts are on this.

[Edited 2013-04-13 15:49:29]

[Edited 2013-04-13 16:05:38]

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2269 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

Good.

Quoting trav110 (Thread starter):
it is a medical issue, not a criminal one

Exactly.

At the very least, this will likely lower the number of deaths (overdoses, for example) and assaults (not sure about this one--can they stay there while high?). That's a good thing.


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2419 times:

We have one in Kings Cross in Sydney, one of the seediest areas in Australia. Funnily enough it is funded from the confiscated proceeds of crime. As a result there are less needles left in the street and dramatically less fatal overdoses.

Quoting trav110 (Thread starter):
Now I am not pro-legalisation

Decriminalisation and legalisation are different things. I'm very pro decriminalisation for possession with strong rehabilitation programs however it gets trickier when you get into legislating the production and distribution networks.


User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2402 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 2):
Decriminalisation and legalisation are different things.

Thank you for bringing this up. The two concepts kind of merged in my head as I was typing this - I would support decriminilisation with the rehab requirement like you said. Legalization of hard drugs is something I don't really ever see having enough support to be put into effect, not in this lifetime anyway.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 1):
At the very least, this will likely lower the number of deaths (overdoses, for example) and assaults (not sure about this one--can they stay there while high?).

The centre sees about 800 people a day, so I don't think they can stay there while high. They have approached the safety and public health issues the area faced by also offering detox, contacts to social support groups, free access to HIV medication for HIV+ individuals, and increased policing in the area- which strikes me as being an unusually thorough, yet positive, response. Basically treatment by prevention.

[Edited 2013-04-13 17:27:27]

User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2038 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2357 times:

This was set up by a bunch of politicians as a band-aid measure. This was the easy way out that scored them a lot of votes with the general public. The money would have been better spent on detox and rehabilitation, but it was such a hot button issue about how to go about it. Fortunately things have turned around and we're seeing more money allocated to the heath care system and NGO's that provide detox, rehab, and mental health services. The safe injection site seems to be regarded by the current incumbents as a temporary measure that will eventually be closed when the time is right. Though, if the NDP get elected, I wouldn't be surprised if it all goes back to square 1 again.


No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 4):
The safe injection site seems to be regarded by the current incumbents as a temporary measure that will eventually be closed when the time is right.

And when addicts shoot up in store fronts and leaving dirty needles everywhere, then what? Is that a better alternative? Some 3 year old playing in the park gets stuck with a dirty needle and contracts HepC or HIV? How does that make things better?

Zero addiction is the best. Giving people options for detox and rehab is great. A clean and save place to use and dispose of needles is good.

The article does not say, but being Canada, I am certain the addicts who enter the clinic are given information for rehab and detox. You can not force an addict to get clean. They will get clean when they are ready. Until then, let's keep the risk of disease to the general public down.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1262 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2333 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 1):
and assaults (not sure about this one--can they stay there while high?). That's a good thing.

If they're heroin addicts they're probably not nearly as dangerous when they're high as when they aren't.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 4):
The money would have been better spent on detox and rehabilitation, but it was such a hot button issue about how to go about it.

Safe injecting centres is an easy way to get people quite literally in the door, off the streets and in contact with professionals who are able to help them. If you're an addict who decides you need help are you going to talk to the person at the injecting centre you see everyday or are you going to front up to an emergency room or GP and talk to someone who is rushed, judgemental and inexperienced in drug issues? Safe injecting rooms are detox and rehabilitation.


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9789 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2297 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting trav110 (Thread starter):
Just as an aside and having personally known a few addicts, I've come to realize that addiction isn't just some habit you can kick like if you're trying to stop drinking soda or eating fast food.

That's why it's an addiction, and not a habit. Though there are those who are addicted to food and caffeine, as well.

Quoting trav110 (Thread starter):
I think addicts caught using (and only using, i.e. not people who have also committed violent crimes) who want to change should be given the opportunity to get their life together by entering a rehab program instead of having a mandatory minimum sentence thrown at them- it is a medical issue, not a criminal one.

Fully agreed. Most people who've never been through the experience of addiction have great difficulty in understanding it. But I've said this before, and I'll say it again - desperation is the worst emotion I've ever felt. You know you need to do something, want so badly to do it, but simply can't conceive of actually doing it.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2759 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2249 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 4):
This was set up by a bunch of politicians as a band-aid measure.

Not here in Australia.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 4):
I wouldn't be surprised if it all goes back to square 1 again.

Not at all.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 4):
The safe injection site seems to be regarded by the current incumbents as a temporary measure that will eventually be closed when the time is right

Curious, would you agree with the above sentiment that the injection sites should only be a temporary measure?


User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2038 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2108 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
The article does not say, but being Canada, I am certain the addicts who enter the clinic are given information for rehab and detox. You can not force an addict to get clean. They will get clean when they are ready. Until then, let's keep the risk of disease to the general public down.

That's the main issue. The same activists and special interest groups that campaigned for the safe injection site usually cause a ruckus over assertive measures to convince those addicts to get clean.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
And when addicts shoot up in store fronts and leaving dirty needles everywhere, then what? Is that a better alternative? Some 3 year old playing in the park gets stuck with a dirty needle and contracts HepC or HIV? How does that make things better?

That hasn't changed since the safe injection site opened.

Quoting trav110 (Reply 10):

Absolutely. The goal is to get these people into detox and rehab, not prolonging their addictions.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 11):
The goal is to get these people into detox and rehab, not prolonging their addictions.

Heroin addicts are going to die or go to jail if they don't choose sobriety. The goal isn't to get them into detox, forcing them to go against their will simply won't work if they don't want to be there and it is a waste of resources. Injection centers have no influence on how long their addiction lasts- the only things that do affect it are death, incarceration, or their own desire to seek help. Most of these people have lost everything- their jobs, their family, their health, their home, their dignity, their money- none of which has stopped them using, so what makes you think taking away a safe injection site will? That isn't how addiction works. Having injection centres is a way to get them in the door and in front of the resources they can use to get clean when they are ready to take that step.

[Edited 2013-04-14 23:00:59]

User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2047 times:

They ought to use the money that they're wasting on these assholes to send some hard working family on a vacation.

User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2029 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 13):
They ought to use the money that they're wasting on these assholes to send some hard working family on a vacation.

That seems like a pretty misguided and heartless statement. What to you makes these people assholes and a waste of money? Yes they make horrible decisions on a regular basis but that's what addiction makes you do, it doesn't necessarily reflect the type of person they are - you just don't know what they're like because they're high all the time. They aren't necessarily the assholes. They're sick individuals who deserve support if their goal is to quit using.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Quoting trav110 (Reply 14):
That seems like a pretty misguided and heartless statement.

What is truly misguided and heartless is to take the fruits of honest labor from those who are doing the right thing and then use it to enable the people who aren't.

I was half joking about paying for a guy's vacation, but it does beg the question: what behavior are we rewarding here?

Quoting trav110 (Reply 14):
What to you makes these people assholes and a waste of money?

The fact that they choose to continue to use drugs. The good news is that they can stop being an asshole/waste of money at any time (assuming medical care is available to counter the potentially deadly effects of withdrawal).

Quoting trav110 (Reply 14):
Yes they make horrible decisions on a regular basis but that's what addiction makes you do, it doesn't necessarily reflect the type of person they are - you just don't know what they're like because they're high all the time. They aren't necessarily the assholes.

This attitude fuels the multibillion dollar addiction recovery industry, and keeps people shackled to drugs. When you strip away all the bullshit, any addiction ultimately comes down to people making choices. The 'disease' model does nothing but offer people the false shelter of viewing themselves as 'sick' and powerless instead of someone who is behaving like an asshole and who has the power to choose otherwise at any time.

Quoting trav110 (Reply 14):
They're sick individuals who deserve support if their goal is to quit using.

They deserve a kick in the ass for starting to use heroin in the first place, for hurting the ones they love and littering our neighborhoods with their needles and trash. But if they're willing to stop then it makes sense to forego that and help them stay clean.

[Edited 2013-04-15 09:02:24]

User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2576 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Frankly I'm more than a little surprised at your views on this, SmittyOne.
It sounds like you have some skin in this game.


On another note, I found this story from LinkedIn

http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/a...onal-weakness?ref=email&_mSplash=1


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
but it does beg the question: what behavior are we rewarding here?

What about detox and rehab is a reward? It's actually quite a horrible experience. The reward only comes to those who work hard while they are in rehab.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
The fact that they choose to continue to use drugs.

Only the first time they use is really a choice. Addiction takes over fairly quickly, and it no longer becomes an issue of "choice", but rather an issue of "dependency".

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
The 'disease' model does nothing but offer people the false shelter of viewing themselves as 'sick' and powerless instead of someone who is behaving like an asshole and who has the power to choose otherwise at any time.

Ok, now I'm taking this personally. I have a loved one who was a severe alcoholic brought on by crippling anxiety and depression. If you think he was an asshole for supposedly "choosing" to drink himself to within an inch of his life, and have to endure over a year of painful recovery that put a great financial, physical and mental strain on him and myself, then YOU are the real asshole. Medical professionals will tell you that it is in fact a sickness, because the body develops a chemical dependency to the drug, be it alcohol or opiates. The brain signals that the body needs the drug in order to continue to function while inhibiting the users ability to make conscious positive decisions such as stopping the use of the drug.

I don't get offended easily, especially not on some internet forum, but you've managed to do just that, SmittyOne. I could easily say that I hope you have to experience what I went through in order to truly understand the magnitude and impact of your ignorant statements, but I don't wish that part of my life on my worst enemy.

Oh, and by the way, the loved one mentioned above is now in good health and is a successful business consultant who is a contributing member of society...all because the government provided him the resources to get healthy. THAT is a fact.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1906 times:

These have been set up in several European countries for quite a while and the results are positive, overdose deaths decrease sharply. There is a process to open several here in France too, in cities asking for it. There is a lot of backlash from right-wing politicians, as can be expected, even when one very respected one of their own is the mayor of such city (Alain Juppé, former prime minister and mayor of Bordeaux).

The tricky part is what are the cops supposed to do around these places, especially considering it will for sure lead to dealers staying there.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1868 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
What is truly misguided and heartless is to take the fruits of honest labor from those who are doing the right thing and then use it to enable the people who aren't.

Or you could take the attitude that everybody makes at least one really bad mistake in their lifetime, and try to fix acknowledged problems before they spiral out of control, be it addiction and it's causes, maladaptive behaviors, or even financial ignorance. It just so happens that addiction has a very real cost to the already largest bit of the federal budget--healthcare--at the END of its progression, much more so than other problems, which carry more of an individual cost. An overdosing addict showing up at the ER will easily cost tens of thousands of dollars (and even more if they get transferred to the ICU), and this will likely happen several times before they either kick the bucket or stop using--money that will never be returned but is still accounted for in one way or another because addicts don't have insurance. My mother had a horrible problem with credit cards because nobody ever taught her how to use them (and as a positive result my brother and I are neurotic about paying ours monthly, in full, and in general avoiding them). She was LUCKY that my father had assets he could sell averting a real financial problem. Otherwise she would've most likely ended up declaring bankruptcy or living in a pit shelling out minimum interest payments for the rest of her life because the problem was about to spiral out of control, with new debt acquired to cover existing debt payments and so one and so forth. She had no clue how to fix it because nobody ever taught her financial discipline before she realized she had a problem, that she then tried to bandaid. Addiction is really no different. Person has a problem that they're unaware of, and they usually try to fix it incorrectly because they know no better. Perhaps you're just fortunate that the first few drinks you took didn't turn into alcoholism. Or perhaps you are fortunate that you didn't have a family who taught you nothing about discipline and goals and how to stay out of trouble. Or perhaps you had parents who aren't emotionally decrepit and incapable of seeing to their child's needs or seeking help if otherwise--a very BIG problem. People don't just pop up and start using drugs, that is a myth. They start using drugs due to external circumstances, THEN it becomes a problem. Spend even an hour in an addiction clinic with addicts who are willing to talk about their problems and you will quickly find that drugs are usually a last-ditch effort to fix a problem a person is ill-equipped to handle. Is about personal responsibility? Absolutely. Is it about discipline? Absolutely. Are addicts taught these before it becomes a problem? Frequently not. We do not live in a perfect world and by the time addiction becomes a reality the potential to head these problems off at the pass has long since flown by. Fix the external circumstances, help the person change their approach, and then you will fix the problem. Don't punish the result and then get mad and confused about why the problem still persists.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
what behavior are we rewarding here?

The phrase "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is useful here. You are rewarding a group of people who would otherwise be required to pay a lot more due to the public health ramifications of doing nothing to control a problem. Yes, in a utopian world people would have discipline and be able to handle their problems without a vice, but that is not reality. Most everyone has a vice be it alcohol, exercise, nicotine (the number one gateway drug believe it or not), obsessively controlling their environment and the people around them, food, and the list goes on and on. Human beings are quite adaptive as a species, but for some very odd reason we let the most ignorant and loudest among us create rules and circumstances (also known as culture and society) which prevent us from doing just that. Enter problems such as addiction.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
The good news is that they can stop being an asshole/waste of money at any time (assuming medical care is available to counter the potentially deadly effects of withdrawal).

The withdrawal is a short-term problem and usually the least part of a patient's recovery, it's just the most physically painful. The problem is a) an individual's propensity for addiction to begin with, and this is frequently genetic, medical, or psychological in origin, and bang on as you may will not be fixed with a kick in the pants and a "get over it" mentality--it's been tried and shown to be a miserable failure, b) the subsequent alteration of the brain's chemistry, and c) the underlying problem that drove a patient to addiction to begin with, which is sadly often made worse by said addiction.

[Edited 2013-04-16 18:00:03]

[Edited 2013-04-16 18:03:00]

[Edited 2013-04-16 18:10:55]

User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
What about detox and rehab is a reward? It's actually quite a horrible experience. The reward only comes to those who work hard while they are in rehab.

I'm not talking about whether rehab feels rewarding from the point of view of the addict. I'm talking about where society should choose to invest scarce resources.

This thread is about spending money to make it safer for people to use heroin until they decide that they are ready to get help. To me this is rewarding the wrong behavior.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
Only the first time they use is really a choice. Addiction takes over fairly quickly, and it no longer becomes an issue of "choice", but rather an issue of "dependency".
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
Ok, now I'm taking this personally. I have a loved one who was a severe alcoholic brought on by crippling anxiety and depression.

Make whatever excuses you want, but the liquor bottles don't empty themselves.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
YOU are the real asshole.

Well, there's one thing we all can agree on!

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
Medical professionals will tell you that it is in fact a sickness, because the body develops a chemical dependency to the drug, be it alcohol or opiates. The brain signals that the body needs the drug in order to continue to function while inhibiting the users ability to make conscious positive decisions such as stopping the use of the drug.


Yet every recovering addict has made this positive choice and continues to do so on a daily basis. How can we excuse the addict's behavior in light of this fact?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
I don't get offended easily, especially not on some internet forum, but you've managed to do just that, SmittyOne. I could easily say that I hope you have to experience what I went through in order to truly understand the magnitude and impact of your ignorant statements, but I don't wish that part of my life on my worst enemy.

My statements are not ignorant. I've lived through my own version of this, but apparently drawn the opposite conclusion from yours.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
Oh, and by the way, the loved one mentioned above is now in good health and is a successful business consultant who is a contributing member of society...all because the government provided him the resources to get healthy. THAT is a fact.

That's great to hear. I don't really have a problem with providing legitimate treatment to people if they can't afford it. Seems like the right thing to do. Setting up this taxpayer funded romper room for heroin addicts is ridiculous though.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
the results are positive, overdose deaths decrease sharply

Great, but are they getting these people clean?


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
The tricky part is what are the cops supposed to do around these places

I watched a news segment some time ago about similar facilities in Switzerland. They interviewed a police officer who said they generally leave people alone who are obviously going in there to do what the facility was meant for. Dealers are pretty easy to spot out since they linger around.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 19):

An incredibly well-informed post. Thank you.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 20):
Make whatever excuses you want, but the liquor bottles don't empty themselves.

Excuses? I'd say mental health issues are more than just an excuse. Some people with those issues live with it for many years, some turn to drugs/alcohol in order to cope, some commit suicide because they've reached a breaking point. People deal with their issues in different ways, of course many are less ideal than others, but to dismiss it as "being an asshole" is actually startling. I can speak from experience that many of these people didn't plan to become addicts.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 20):
Yet every recovering addict has made this positive choice and continues to do so on a daily basis.

   False. Many addicts, like the person I was speaking of in my first post, are forced into treatment and are kept there for their own well-being. Once they have detoxed and undergone intense counselling, they hopefully see the error of their ways and don't touch the stuff ever again.

Many recovering addicts also relapse at least once. Beating addiction isn't cut and dry, and these resources are critical in helping them get on the right path, as long as it may take.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 20):
My statements are not ignorant. I've lived through my own version of this, but apparently drawn the opposite conclusion from yours.

Well I don't know what's wrong with you then. Maybe your experience has just damaged you to the point where you can't feel compassion for others in a similar situation. But it's startling that even after your experiences (so you claim) that you would still make a sweeping generalization of addicts.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 20):
Setting up this taxpayer funded romper room for heroin addicts is ridiculous though.

Is it ridiculous if it shows positive quantifiable results? You also look at this through American lenses. I shouldn't have to remind you that in Canada we have universal healthcare, so the less people we have overdosing on the streets, the better for our hospitals. Obviously these facilities were set-up after an in-depth cost-benefit analysis.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1796 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Excuses? I'd say mental health issues are more than just an excuse. Some people with those issues live with it for many years, some turn to drugs/alcohol in order to cope, some commit suicide because they've reached a breaking point. People deal with their issues in different ways, of course many are less ideal than others, but to dismiss it as "being an asshole" is actually startling. I can speak from experience that many of these people didn't plan to become addicts.

And in the mean time plenty of other people keep doing their duty - day after day, week after week, year after year despite the serious challenges they face in their lives.

There are a lot of people with genuine mental illnesses, I get that. But there are also a lot of people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves. How about you coddle and enable the people who choose dysfunctional responses to difficulty and I'll reward those who succeed and we'll see how that works out. Which approach results in a better society?

Calling them assholes may have been a harsh generalization on my part, but this religion of relieving people of accountability for their actions under the aegis of 'illness' is a huge mistake. Funny thing about humans is if you give them an excuse to throw a pity party instead of manning up they will take advantage of it. Entire segments of society (in the US at least) are riding that train right now, and ruining the quality of life for the rest of us.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Many addicts, like the person I was speaking of in my first post, are forced into treatment and are kept there for their own well-being.

Good call. Hell of a lot better idea than enabling the behavior by providing needles and nurses.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Well I don't know what's wrong with you then. Maybe your experience has just damaged you to the point where you can't feel compassion for others in a similar situation. But it's startling that even after your experiences (so you claim) that you would still make a sweeping generalization of addicts.

Yes I do claim. I come from a long line of serious alcoholics; thankfully I quit drinking while I was ahead. Now I have little sympathy for addicts and the suffering they cause for others...not when I've had to work for the majority of my life to undo the damage that it caused me. Obviously I'm still pissed off about it.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Is it ridiculous if it shows positive quantifiable results? You also look at this through American lenses. I shouldn't have to remind you that in Canada we have universal healthcare, so the less people we have overdosing on the streets, the better for our hospitals. Obviously these facilities were set-up after an in-depth cost-benefit analysis.

Sounds like a pretty strong argument against universal health care, at least for drug addicts. There's no moral or practical reason why people who do the right thing should be forced to carry those who don't.


User currently offlinejagflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3499 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

Addiction is something your body physically requires. Needle drugs, cocaine, heroin, alcohol, nicotine etc are physically addictive. If you do not put them into your body, you get physical symptoms due to the dependence. Things like marijuana and food are not physically addictive and to me are nothing other than vices. I can take pity on someone who gets so into drinking or shooting up that it no longer becomes a choice but a requirement for them. When it comes to food, I have absolutely no sympathy for people who weigh 500lbs + becuase they're "addicted to food". It's not an addiction, it's a lifestyle choice. You're not going to go into withdrawl if you don't eat 5000 calories a day but a cocaine addict most certainly will if they don't get their drug for several days.

All addictions in the end come down to choices made at the beginning. If you choose to drown your problems in alcohol or heroin it will eventually lead to your downfall. It all comes down to choice and making the correct choices before you lose yourself to drugs and alcohol.



Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 20):
Great, but are they getting these people clean?

As said before it's one way to get people into rehab.

Also, you're talking about the money it costs, a fair argument, but doesn't the US put far more people than any other country on Earth in jail for only using drugs, and isn't that an enormous cost ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1752 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
Also, you're talking about the money it costs, a fair argument,

It's not so much the quantity of money but the message that is being sent to all the people out there who are doing the right thing: Keep it up fellas, because the people who didn't fucking listen when we said "stay away from heroin" are counting on you!

I dont' care how expedient it is, it's just wrong.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
but doesn't the US put far more people than any other country on Earth in jail for only using drugs, and isn't that an enormous cost ?

True. I don't think use should be criminalized...do all the drugs you want but YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW. That's what liberty is all about.


User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1710 times:

A friend of mine actually works at InSite in Vancouver; based on what she's told me over the years, there are a number of misconceptions being passed around here.

1) The primary goal is to give these people a safe, clean environment in which to use their drugs. The idea isn't to keep them hooked on whatever it is they're addicted to; rather, it is first and foremost to do everything they can to minimise the spread of communicable diseases like Hep C and HIV (which add a considerable long-term burden to our healthcare system), and to prevent people from dying from accidental overdose. So far, the numbers indicate that InSite has already saved the BC government quite a bit of money, to say nothing of saving lives. Published studies have shown that fatal overdoses have dropped 35% within 500 metres of InSite, compared to a 9% drop for the rest of the Greater Vancouver area.

2) Resources are made available to anyone there who is willing to try and kick their addiction. Nobody there forces anyone to make use of them, but if someone indicates a willingness, they have everything they need to get the process started. Bear in mind that a lot of the reason why addicts don't seek professional help is that they are afraid of criminal consequences, and they're afraid of the stigma attached to drug use. By allowing addicts to build a comfortable relationship with the doctors/nurses/social workers there, it makes them more likely to seek treatment.

3) InSite also helps these high-risk people get access to primary healthcare - such things as regular doctor's visits that the rest of us in Canada take for granted - which has the effect of making the community as a whole healthier.



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7067 posts, RR: 8
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Quoting MrChips (Reply 26):
1) The primary goal is to give these people a safe, clean environment in which to use their drugs.

I have a couple questions, if the site is not providing them with drugs and they are full blown addicts, is it safe to say that they are no longer holding down a job to support their habit / illness?
So where are they getting the funds to purchase their drugs, is criminal activity used to secure the funds?


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1859 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1653 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
What is truly misguided and heartless is to take the fruits of honest labor from those who are doing the right thing and then use it to enable the people who aren't.
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
The fact that they choose to continue to use drugs. The good news is that they can stop being an asshole/waste of money at any time (assuming medical care is available to counter the potentially deadly effects of withdrawal).

I really don't think you fully understand how addiction works. Certainly there are people with greater will than others, but desire to quit drugs is trumped by will of a person to endure the struggle of going without the drugs. To say that one can just quit a strong chemical addiction like that of the opiate type drugs which create such a physical addiction that even the addiction treatment requires the use of the drug the stave off the strong withdrawal reactions is a statement made in a emotional place not based in facts.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 28):
To say that one can just quit a strong chemical addiction like that of the opiate type drugs which create such a physical addiction that even the addiction treatment requires the use of the drug the stave off the strong withdrawal reactions is a statement made in a emotional place not based in facts.

I think you've misread me here. I understand that people can actually die from alcohol withdrawal and genuinely require medical intervention to get off opiates. My point is that every day that they choose not to start the process they are choosing to be inconsiderate assholes. They place a higher value on avoiding the consequences of their poor choices (withdrawal) than they do on getting their shit together and pulling their weight. We should cultivate the strongest disdain for that, both in themselves and the public at large, not set up safe places to keep the party going until they find it convenient to live up to their most basic obligations.

I don't mean to go "Asian Dad" on you here, but we set such ridiculously meager standards for ourselves and each other and then fail to live up to even those. No wonder things are the way that they are.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 26):
Published studies have shown that fatal overdoses have dropped 35% within 500 metres of InSite, compared to a 9% drop for the rest of the Greater Vancouver area.

Fantastic...but explain to me again why I should care about this. Aside from the fact that it decreases the amount of money wasted when our system provides emergency care to these people for free when they show up OD or with HIV/Hep, what justification is there to invest in people who aren't yet trying to get clean as opposed to music lessons for kids or infrastructure improvements to make highways safer? How is that not rewarding and enabling the wrong behavior?

On the other hand, if they take the first step I'll be their biggest supporter. If this safe zone came with some sort of obligation to begin treatment in a finite period of time I'd see the sense in it. But if the purpose is strictly to minimize negative impacts on addicts that continue to use in order to save the health care system money, then society is whoring itself out to expediency per usual.

[Edited 2013-04-18 04:51:04]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Well I guess if it gets them off the street and is in a controlled environment. I cant say I like it I have a zero tolerance attitude to drugs.

Seems they are going to trial it in the UK also . :

Brighton's drug addicts will be given ‘safe houses’ to take drugs legally, but is this really the answer?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...his-really-the-answer-8574785.html


User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 29):
If this safe zone came with some sort of obligation to begin treatment in a finite period of time I'd see the sense in it.

That would never be effective. Addicts don't give a damn about obligations, if they don't want to quit they aren't going to. It's about damage control. Society always has and always will have problems- Injection sites take drug users out of the alleys, it keeps down medical costs, and it stops people leaving dirty needles strewn about. I agree that paying for clean needles is not an ideal solution, having no addicts would be ideal, but that will never happen. Ignoring the reality of the situation and leaving these destitute people to their own devices only costs everyone more in the end.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Computer Help: PC Only Runs In Safe Mode posted Wed Jul 7 2010 17:33:10 by Derico
Anyone Up For A Beer In Barcelona Next Weekend? posted Tue Jan 13 2009 13:44:13 by Sabena332
Selling A Car In Ontario Canada posted Wed Aug 27 2008 06:11:16 by YooYoo
Stand- Up Comedy Club In NYC? posted Wed Feb 20 2008 05:56:46 by WILCO737
Warning Up To $3,000 In Fines In VA posted Mon Jul 2 2007 05:26:52 by Mike89406
Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts posted Fri Jun 15 2007 05:29:42 by Johnboy
Michael "Kramer" Richards Blows Up On Stage In LA posted Mon Nov 20 2006 18:23:02 by AAFLT1871
Man Wakes Up With Bullet In Head posted Thu Dec 29 2005 23:11:29 by Dazed767
Police About To "blow Up" Impala In DC posted Fri Oct 21 2005 18:47:26 by Cptkrell
We Finally Cleaned Up Public Housing In New Orlean posted Sun Sep 11 2005 06:17:14 by Clickhappy