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Alternative For Germany Party Call For End Of Euro  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26847 posts, RR: 58
Posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2814 times:

A new political party has been founded in Germany. The Alternative for Germany Party wants to abolish the euro, raising concerns among the political establishment that the group will fan anti-European Union sentiment.
Delegates met in Berlin on Sunday to officially launch the Alternative for Germany Party (AfD), which is calling for the “orderly dissolution of the euro” and the return of some sovereignty from the EU to the member states, as well as the introduction of Swiss-style referendums at the federal level.
The party, created by economists and professors dissatisfied with the euro, claims to have already received 7,000 membership applications.

http://www.dw.de/alternative-for-ger...s-for-abolition-of-euro/a-16742836

Seems plenty in Germany are ready to sign up too. If a significant amount of German voters switich to them this could mean a return to the DM for Germany and an end to the Euro game. A recent poll apparantly revealed that many Germans miss the Mark and would love to return to it.

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

Guess whose vote they are *not* going to get.  


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8685 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2800 times:

Yay, another Pro DM If they absolutely have to waste their time, money and energy on this nonsense, that's wonderful - should keep them occupied.


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5633 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Abandoning the euro would be disastrous for German exporters: a revived deutschmark would soar against other currencies, having a big effect on German exports, and consequently, jobs.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

I don´t see them getting above 10% of the votes, if ever. They will take votes from Merkel on the rightwing fringe, and thus help the social democrats and socialists to get a higher percentage during the next election.
As for me, I´ll follow Norbert´s example.

Jan


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2675 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 3):
a revived deutschmark would soar against other currencies, having a big effect on German exports, and consequently, jobs.

Undeniably true as far as it goes, Braybuddy. But the recent 'new factor' appears to be that the weaker Eurozone economies can only go on buying all those German exports if Germany goes on providing them with the money to buy them with - in the form of increasingly-frequent 'donations' of multi-billion-Euro bailout funds that can never be repaid?

I suspect that the new party will attract quite a lot of support; not enough to secure many if any seats at this stage, but enough to make sure that the future of the Eurozone - and how much longer Germany should go on funding it - will be much discussed during the election campaign?

[Edited 2013-04-15 00:31:37]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

A political party created by economists and professors.... That's something you don't see everyday.

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10645 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 3):
Abandoning the euro would be disastrous for German exporters: a revived deutschmark would soar against other currencies, having a big effect on German exports, and consequently, jobs.

Absolutely. While Germany might be the biggest payman in the EU, its also the one which does make the biggest profits.
No chance for a pro-DM party. I´d rather vote for a party enforcing stricter measures against serious violaters like Cyprus or Greece who long profited from the EU and betrayed it. It cannot be that Greece cant claim unpaid taxes from their own miilionaires but does call for the average Northern European to pay to stand for it. It cannot be that a Greek gets a higher percentage of his last income as pension and is entitled to receive it earlier than a German who among others in the end pays to guarantee that. It cannot be that Cyprus offers EU passports to rich foreigners who lost money due to the banking crisis.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26847 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2594 times:

Quoting na (Reply 7):
It cannot be that Greece cant claim unpaid taxes from their own miilionaires

The EU should pass a law that makes it easier to freeze such bank accounts in other European countries where tax evasion has taken place. Alot of the money is in other European bank accounts in places like London / Frankfurt and Zurich.

Quoting na (Reply 7):
. It cannot be that Cyprus offers EU passports to rich foreigners who lost money due to the banking crisis.

I dont agree with it at all but Cyprus is not the first EU country to do this and it has been a practice in Western Europe for big investors for a long time.

All I can say is thank god the UK stayed out of the Euro.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting na (Reply 7):
I´d rather vote for a party enforcing stricter measures against serious violaters like Cyprus or Greece who long profited from the EU and betrayed it.

Interesting 'angle' there, na. In point of fact, the Eurozone, in legal terms, is not much more than a 'customs union' - certainly, there is no way Germany (or any other EU country) can 'enforce stricter measures' against Cyprus, or Greece, or any other Eurozone (or, indeed, EU) member.

Years back I got myself an economics degree - and then spent a lifetime in business. The first few years of the 'European Common Market' were frankly marvellous - trade between Britain and the whole of the rest of the ECM expanded hugely, and productively. But then came the 'Euro' - a common currency without any sort of workable political union.

Luckily for me and my family, at about that time I got a job offer from Australia, and accepted it. So I wasn't professionally involved in Europe's long (and impossible, and unsuccessful) struggle to reconcile a 'common currency' with a large number of countries with vastly different levels of prosperity and productivity.

The answer simply isn't a matter of 'enforcing stricter measures against serious violaters' - neither the EU nor any Eurozone country has the powers to do anything like that.

IMO the ONLY answer is to phase out the Euro for most, if not all, of the Eurozone countries. As quickly - and 'tidily' - as possible. That will lead to a certain amount of 'chaos and panic' - but I don't see any alternative course of action that has any chance of succeeding?

Maybe you can see one, though? If you were magically placed in charge of the Eurozone tomorrow, what would be YOUR solution?

[Edited 2013-04-15 05:53:11]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
Quoting na (Reply 7):
It cannot be that Greece cant claim unpaid taxes from their own miilionaires

The EU should pass a law that makes it easier to freeze such bank accounts in other European countries where tax evasion has taken place. Alot of the money is in other European bank accounts in places like London / Frankfurt and Zurich.

A lot of this money is apparently currently moving into the German and British real eastate market, with rich people from Greece, Italy etc. buying up residential blocks in German cities like Berlin. These are mostly lower income bluecollar distrcts, which the developers now want to convert into fashionable and profitable noveau riche areas. This off course is a major issue to the locals because it drives housing prices up, so that the original inhabitants of these traditional working class distracts can´t afford the rents anymore (in Germany most people, especially in the cities, don´t own property, but rent their houses because of high real estate prices).

Jan

[Edited 2013-04-15 06:00:25]

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2552 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
IMO the ONLY answer is to phase out the Euro for most, if not all, of the Eurozone countries. As quickly - and 'tidily' - as possible. That will lead to a certain amount of 'chaos and panic' - but I don't see any alternative course of action that has any chance of succeeding?

That would effectively amount to just throwing our hands in the air and giving up on everything – including the massive advantages of the EU in total.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Maybe you can see one, though? If you were magically placed in charge of the Eurozone tomorrow, what would be YOUR solution?

A certain amount of discipline is a necessity, but contrary to the unimaginative and almost entirely reactive policies driven by Merkel & co., it is clear to many that it is not sufficient to resolve the existing difficulties.

There is of course a need to differentiate between speculative excesses such as the cypriot money laundering scheme, the greek deceptions and the spanish real estate bubble (plus various others, many of them related to the global financial crisis) which require major reparative surgery on the one hand, and constructive integration and long-term develoment of the european economies
Quoting trav110 (Reply 6):
political party created by economists and professors.... That's something you don't see everyday.

Actually, it's not really uncommon. Such fringe populist parties have come and gone in the past as well; They just don't win parliamentary seats.

They are feeding on widespread fears and popular misconceptions. It is almost comical how they are clamoring for an abolition of the Euro, completely ignoring that most of the current problems have not been created by the Euro, but are merely exposed while the Euro happens to be the common currency. At least the bulk of the problems would exist just as much (in some cases in different forms) with separate currencies as they do with the Euro.

Building up the Euro as a mythical bugaboo is cheap populist fodder, but just as remote from reality as the equally populist demands of the Linkspartei.

It is very unlikely that this latest populist effort will win the required 5% nationwide (let alone a direct seat).

The currently co-governing econo-liberal FDP has the most to fear from it, since they are close enough to the 5% threshold themselves to possibly fall out of the Bundestag since they are riding on not too dissimilar populist economical policies (anti-Euro dissidents have stirred up trouble within the FDP as well already).

The result would be either a renewal of the former red/green coalition (SPD+Grüne) or a grand coalition (CDU/CSU+SPD), both resolutely behind the EU and the Euro.

The new populists will at most lead to some shrill manoeuvering by the FDP, but that's about it. The chance of them gaining any actual policy influence is negligible.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
IMO the ONLY answer is to phase out the Euro for most, if not all, of the Eurozone countries. As quickly - and 'tidily' - as possible. That will lead to a certain amount of 'chaos and panic' - but I don't see any alternative course of action that has any chance of succeeding?

That would effectively amount to just throwing our hands in the air and giving up on everything – including the massive advantages of the EU in total.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Maybe you can see one, though? If you were magically placed in charge of the Eurozone tomorrow, what would be YOUR solution?

A certain amount of discipline is a necessity, but contrary to the unimaginative and almost entirely reactive policies driven by Merkel & co., it is clear to many that it is not sufficient to resolve the existing difficulties.

There is of course a need to differentiate between speculative excesses such as the cypriot money laundering scheme, the greek deceptions and the spanish real estate bubble (plus various others, many of them related to the global financial crisis) which require major reparative surgery on the one hand, and constructive integration and long-term develoment of the european economies on the other.

It is not a popular thought, but one of the primary issues is that beyond regular fiscal discipline, healthy public finance requires appropriate revenue and tax discipline as well.

Tax shelters absolutely need to be rooted out and the fiscal basis must be broadened and re-equalized after decades of aggressively shifting the burdens more and more to the middle class and to lower incomes through progressive lowering of taxes on the wealthy while financing the public budgets through debt – which was then used as a lever to squeeze the lower-income tax payers out of benefits and into effectively rising taxation (via VAT increases, for instance).

The lowered taxes of the past were based on one big assumption: That the imaginary gains of the finance bubble of decades past were actually real.

As we've seen they were not – and the entire ideological house of cards built on that false assumption has already crumbled; Many politicians are just still in shocked denial and are incapable of acknowledging the sobering facts.
.

It is not a popular thought, but one of the primary issues is that beyond regular fiscal discipline, healthy public finance requires appropriate revenue and tax discipline as well.

Tax shelters absolutely need to be rooted out and the fiscal basis must be broadened and re-equalized after decades of aggressively shifting the burdens more and more to the middle class and to lower incomes through progressive lowering of taxes on the wealthy while financing the public budgets through debt – which was then used as a lever to squeeze the lower-income tax payers out of benefits and into effectively rising taxation (via VAT increases, for instance).

The lowered taxes of the past were based on one big assumption: That the imaginary gains of the finance bubble of decades past were actually real.

As we've seen they were not – and the entire ideological house of cards built on that false assumption has already crumbled; Many politicians are just still in shocked denial and are incapable of acknowledging the sobering facts.

It is high time for a new realism and for pragmatic acknowledgment of the actual realities instead of the silly oversimplified ideologies of the past.

[Edited 2013-04-15 06:18:42]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26847 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
A lot of this money is apparently currently moving into the German and British real eastate market, with rich people from Greece, Italy etc. buying up residential blocks in German cities like Berlin. These are mostly lower income bluecollar distrcts, which the developers now want to convert into fashionable and profitable noveau riche areas. This off course is a major issue to the locals because it drives housing prices up, so that the original inhabitants of these traditional working class distracts can´t afford the rents anymore (in Germany most people, especially in the cities, don´t own property, but rent their houses because of high real estate prices).

If I had my way I would make it legal to seize these properties and sell them to clear debts they owed in Greece in taxes and most every day Greeks would support it but I doubt the British and German governments would be so willing .


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3736 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Actually, it's not really uncommon. Such fringe populist parties have come and gone in the past as well; They just don't win parliamentary seats.

They exist in most Euro countries as well.

Whenever times get tough, people get exasperated and outraged and start voting for populist parties at the extremes of the political spectrum, promising 'radical changes' from an establishment which has failed to live up to everyone's expectations...

The anti Euro far right parties in France, The Netherlands and Austria, for instance, have never been as popular as they are today, I believe.

Crises are not known for promoting restrained and composed reasoning amongst the masses, unfortunately.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 13):
Crises are not known for promoting restrained and composed reasoning amongst the masses, unfortunately.

Actually, they still are, for the most part.

Such shortsighted populism usually still fails to capture the majority, even when it emerges during complicated times.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
IMO the ONLY answer is to phase out the Euro for most, if not all, of the Eurozone countries. As quickly - and 'tidily' - as possible. That will lead to a certain amount of 'chaos and panic' - but I don't see any alternative course of action that has any chance of succeeding?

That would effectively amount to just throwing our hands in the air and giving up on everything – including the massive advantages of the EU in total.

Getting a bit confused here, Klaus. From the point of view of the average ''Eurozone-dweller," I really can't identify any of the "massive advantages of the EU in total" to which you refer?

How, in your opinion. do people like the Cypriots, the Greeks, the Portuguese, the Spanish, and increasing numbers of other weaker Eurozone countries, really enjoy 'massive advantages' from using the Euro?

Sorry to further reveal myself as a total 'oldie' - but I can still recall my 'national service' in Germany about 1960. In those days we only got paid about two pounds a WEEK - but we were VERY welcome in German 'gasthausen.'

The important thing about ANY country which is in financial trouble is to keep people spending. That's the only policy that even might solve the problem.

Nothing else will...............

[Edited 2013-04-15 07:52:48]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1788 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
How, in your opinion. do people like the Cypriots, the Greeks, the Portuguese, the Spanish, and increasing numbers of other weaker Eurozone countries, really enjoy 'massive advantages' from using the Euro?

Almost overnight, their cost for a mortgage (actually any kind of loan) dropped by quite a few % points. My parents paid some 18% interest on their mortgage between the late 70s and late 80s.

That meant more cash in their pockets rather than the bank's.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6528 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Germany is not paying for everything, this has to be said. Germany has the biggest economy so it pays the highest SHARE. If we take the ESM (European Stability Mechanism), for every 27€ Germany puts in, France puts 20€ and Italy 17€.

Merkel supported politicians that followed her lead in the French and Italian elections (Sarkoy and Monti), both lost. This means something.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
Getting a bit confused here, Klaus. From the point of view of the average ''Eurozone-dweller," I really can't identify any of the "massive advantages of the EU in total" to which you refer?

If someone, as me, takes full advantage of the EU and is willing to relocate to wherever one finds the best job / quality of life / living expenses combo, the EU and the Euro are defintely an advantage. First, when I was living in Ireland back in the late 1990s (before the Euro), the exchange rate between the Punt and the Deutschmark changed evvery few days. Since I had to transfer a large part of my income to my then wife in Germany it made quite a difference, not evehn to speak of all the bank fees involved.

Then people should understand the EU as an advantage. Same as Americans are willing to relocate to other states to get the best deal, Europeans should be willing to relocate as well and not expect their dream job to suddenly appear right at their doorstep. The EU rules about free movement of labour defintely prevented me from being an unemployment statistic.
It also helps that thanks to the EASA we have one aircraft maintenance licence in Europe and not 20. This means that with my Irish licence I can work on any European registered aircraft provided I have the relevant type rating. It is not anymore that German aircraft can only be maintained by German engineers and French by French ones.

If I had money now I would invest it in countries like Spain (where I have a basic knowledge of the language) or Greece to set up production facilities. Obviously conditions like bureaucracy have to fit as the salaries have to match the work and living expenses (I´m not aiming at exploiting the workers and to become a millionaire over night, I have been a bluecollar worker myself for too long to do this, but the salaries have to be competitive).

Jan


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
A lot of this money is apparently currently moving into the German and British real eastate market, with rich people from Greece, Italy etc. buying up residential blocks in German cities like Berlin. These are mostly lower income bluecollar distrcts, which the developers now want to convert into fashionable and profitable noveau riche areas. This off course is a major issue to the locals because it drives housing prices up, so that the original inhabitants of these traditional working class distracts can´t afford the rents anymore (in Germany most people, especially in the cities, don´t own property, but rent their houses because of high real estate prices).

If I had my way I would make it legal to seize these properties and sell them to clear debts they owed in Greece in taxes and most every day Greeks would support it but I doubt the British and German governments would be so willing .

Actually I think that as soon as a warrant and request came from Greece, the German authorities would react. Of course it would have to withstand the scrutiny of a German court of law, since the owners would certainly fight back. But from what I´ve heard the problem is that the Greek tax office is not really willing to prosecute tax dodgers, often due to bribes having been paid.

Jan


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3568 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
They are feeding on widespread fears and popular misconceptions.

That is interesting. Who else might know about economic policies, if not economists and professors?


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
If someone, as me, takes full advantage of the EU and is willing to relocate to wherever one finds the best job / quality of life / living expenses combo, the EU and the Euro are defintely an advantage.

But you appear to be qualified, skilled and experienced; and speak several languages? Moving to another country would be a lot more difficult for people who don't have those advantages? And, in any case, the Eurozone unemployment figures are now staggeringly bad; it simply wouldn't be possible for about a quarter of the populations of the poorer countries (and up to half their 'under 25s') to move to Germany or Sweden, nor would there be anything like enough jobs for them all:-

"The rate of unemployment in the eurozone has hit a record high of 12%, official figures have shown.

"The number of people unemployed in the 17 member states rose by 33,000 during February, to hit 19.07 million, the statistics agency Eurostat said.

"The highest jobless rates were 26.4% in Greece, although this figure was from December, and 26.3% in Spain.

---------------------

"Youth unemployment remains an area of particular concern, with 188,000 people aged under 25 joining the ranks of the unemployed in February.

"More than half the workforce in this age group are now out of work in Spain and Greece, and almost a quarter out of a job across the eurozone as a whole."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22000996



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2075 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

At the end it'll be a reservoir for right wing idiots, nazis, and other morons. Like all the other populist parties.  


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5633 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 21):
Moving to another country would be a lot more difficult for people who don't have those advantages?

Well, look at the number of non-English speaking east Europeans who moved west after the expansion of the EU back in 2004! You couldn't walk down a street here without hearing a Pole shouting "dobra" into a mobile phone. Most of them took-up jobs that Irish people refused to do at the time. A lot are still living here, as evidenced by the number of shops selling eastern European food, though by now most of them can now speak English..

[Edited 2013-04-15 23:12:54]

User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting na (Reply 7):
I´d rather vote for a party enforcing stricter measures against serious violaters like Cyprus or Greece who long profited from the EU and betrayed it.

You want measures now? If Germany et al had been paying any attention to where the money had been going for the last 20 years you wouldn't be needing measures now. Nonsense EU expansion (which still isn't stopping), fiddling the figures so that everyone and his dog could join the euro, idiot unelected corrupt EC bureaucrats, massive funding for new Mercedes cars and houses, err, sorry I mean infrastructure projects... of course now Germany wants to lay down the law they're increasingly refered to as Nazis.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
Actually, they still are, for the most part.

I have a feeling this time things may be different.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
not evehn to speak of all the bank fees involved.

Bank fees are alive and well in these parts. €30 to receive a euro transfer from Hong Kong (eur to eur), €15 to deposit an Irish euro cheque, €120 to deposit €800 worth of euro travellers cheques (yes, you read that right)....



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
25 Aesma : But for them this was a big jump in living standards, earning 10 times more money instantly. A Spanish blue collar worker will maybe get a job elsewh
26 MD11Engineer : Actually I have little sympathy if somebody spends his whole time watching "X-factor" etc.. The time would better be spent in qualifying oneself. Eur
27 Braybuddy : People will move to wherever the jobs are, whether there's a language barrier or not. Apart from the financial benefit of a wage over the dole, most
28 NAV20 : That press story I quoted above said that the total unemployed in the Eurozone is now over 19 MILLION, Braybuddy. Don't tell me that they're all goin
29 Braybuddy : I never suggested or implied they would. People will move to wherever the jobs are, TO LOOK FOR WORK. If they can't get employment in Country A, they
30 Aesma : Maybe in theory but in practice they don't. Engineers, doctors, people with a masters degree are fleeing Spain, Portugal and Italy. Others aren't. An
31 Braybuddy : Then how do you explain the mass migration of eastern Europeans west after their countries joined the EU in 2004? The reason more people aren't movin
32 Aesma : I guess I wasn't clear. From east to west you get a 10 times better salary. From Spain to Germany you get a job and a worse life, maybe even a lower s
33 RussianJet : Really?? Wow, I guess I just imagined over a million eastern Europeans moving to the UK within a year or two of joining the EU, over half of which we
34 slider : Klaus- might I inquire--not provocatively but sincerely--is that a bad thing, necessarily? Given the tumult and massive disparities in how some EU co
35 Post contains links aloges : Long term, it would cause wars and cost millions of lives, yet again: one key objective of European supranationalism is to make "any war between Fran
36 RussianJet : Potentially, though of course that's a very pessimistic assumption. In my view, there was nothing wrong with the old EU. It worked well, ensured frie
37 OA260 : Indeed it was all about sharing of common goals and values not having laws being enforced from far away. Nothing wrong with close trade agreements an
38 Braybuddy : I don't get your point. How can someone who's unemployed in Spain be worse-off working in Germany?
39 Rabenschlag : My Mexican relatives (I know, it's not Spain) keep bitching about the German weather, the bad food, the lack of personal care of Germans (clothing, h
40 RussianJet : Indeed, there is such a danger if people perceive that they have been forced into a country they didn't want. I agree with all of what you said. One
41 Aesma : Also if you stay in your country, you have your family there, some members might be able to help you (it's common in Italy to live with parents until
42 JJJ : This perfectly explains why most people leaving Spain at the moment are either earlier immigrants to Spain who lack family/contact support, skilled p
43 OA260 : Yes very ture. Yes the Greeks have always been that way even in better economic times. The majority of Greeks leaving to work are skilled workers wit
44 Post contains images Braybuddy : Maybe your Mexican relatives might like to look in a mirror first . . .
45 ual777 : LOL no kidding
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