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Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now  
User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 771 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

As I predicted in December, no gun control would pass on the federal level. Today, the so called 'universal' background check bill failed to garner the 60 votes required for passage. Despite the President's angry remarks this afternoon, this should quell the immediate gun control / 2nd Amendment assault at the federal level. I believe the President is sincere that he will try again at a later date. Here's an article covering the aforementioned: http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/2...background-checks-on-gun-purchases

248 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7025 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

It's sad that this happened, I don't see any problems with what Obama wanted to do, most other 1st world countries have similar checks prior to someone purchasing a weapon.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5062 times:

Gabby Giffords' op-ed for the New York Times:

A Senate in the Gun Lobby’s Grip

Like 90% of Americans, I also approved of expanding the background checks to sales at gun shows and over the internet. If we're going to require background checks, then let's do it and not be namby-pamby about it.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1501 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5046 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
Like 90% of Americans, I also approved of expanding the background checks to sales at gun shows and over the internet. If we're going to require background checks, then let's do it and not be namby-pamby about it.

Which goes to show you know nothing other than what the media spoon feeds you. Internet sales, legally, must go thru an FFL, which, thus requires the use of form 4473, which is the NICS background check. The gunshow loophole is nothing as such, it's a private sale between private parties of the same state. Any sales from a person of one state to another is illegal.

Start enforcing the laws on the books before you make more.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

A shameful day for the country. The only people who should be happy about this are people who want a gun but couldn't pass a background check, and it's not rocket science to figure out what sort of people fall into that category. The inmates are truly running the asylum.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Which goes to show you know nothing other than what the media spoon feeds you.

I stopped reading what you wrote after this wholly unnecessary personal slam.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1501 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5034 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
I stopped reading what you wrote after this wholly unnecessary personal slam.

It's not a personal attack in the least bit, just the sad truth about the state of affairs in this country. People would rather be spoon fed everything rather than looking it up themselves.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5028 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Any sales from a person of one state to another is illegal.

Nice theory, but how is the seller to know that the buyer is from the same state?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5027 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 6):
People would rather be spoon fed everything rather than looking it up themselves.

Of course it was a personal slam. If you wanted to educate instead of denigrate, the sentence would have never appeared in your post.

Now, that said, like most Americans, I don't sit down and read the text of every bill before Congress. We pull our information from varied sources. If you had a correction to what I typed, and wanted to inform, you had the opportunity to do so without the flame.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8779 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5028 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
Like 90% of Americans, I also approved of expanding the background checks to sales at gun shows and over the internet. If we're going to require background checks, then let's do it and not be namby-pamby about it.

But that is not all the bill said. If that was all it was, I could have also supported it. But it includes budget items, establishes a new bureaucracy, compliance reporting and punishment on the states, etc. Read it. A good example of how something that should be very simple gets messed up when you give it to Washington to try to manage.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-113s649pcs/pdf/BILLS-113s649pcs.pdf

This bill should have fit on one or two pages, and no budget or bureaucracy mandated.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1501 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5022 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Nice theory, but how is the seller to know that the buyer is from the same state?

Photo ID? If I were selling a gun private party, I would at a minimum require to see their driver's license and record it for my records. But hey, if as a seller you just want to sell and take the felony, be my guest, do it how you want.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5014 times:

[rant] The vast majority of US Senators are nothing but a**holes who care nothing about their constituents, but more about their jobs. 80%-90% of Americans support a bill - that had bipartisan support - and it still gets shot down! Today, I will not echo the words of a Lee Greenwood song because right now, I am damned sure NOT proud to be an American, because our politicians care more about their jobs then they do about safety. This was a common sense measure that had bipartisan support, and still gets voted down. I feel as livid as President Obama sounded. [/rant]

Marc


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1159 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5009 times:

Too bad, I guess big amount of Americans then see the right for any lunatic to carry a weapon as one of the basic freedoms in their country.

I'm glad there's big ocean between this madness and the civilization we have here.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8779 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5001 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 11):
I am damned sure NOT proud to be an American, because our politicians care more about their jobs then they do about safety.

Just curious - I haven't checked myself. But did proponents of the bill specify any recent murder/rampage that this bill would have prevented, had the Bill been in effect? Would it have prevented Sandy Hook or G Gifford's shooting? Just asking.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1501 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4995 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Just curious - I haven't checked myself. But did proponents of the bill specify any recent murder/rampage that this bill would have prevented, had the Bill been in effect? Would it have prevented Sandy Hook or G Gifford's shooting? Just asking.

They can't, because it wouldn't have. Its nothing more than a feel good attempt to politically capitalize on the murder of a bunch of children. It's a flat out attempt to move towards some idealistic world where gun control means less crime, which is not going to be the case.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4992 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
But it includes budget items, establishes a new bureaucracy, compliance reporting and punishment on the states, etc. Read it.

Thanks for the link. I've no problem with anything in the bill, and my opinion has not changed. If anything, it has only reinforced my support for expanded gun regulation, seeing how easily it may be enacted.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4988 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 10):
Photo ID?

Which are, of course, impossible to forge.  
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 10):
If I were selling a gun private party, I would at a minimum require to see their driver's license and record it for my records. But hey, if as a seller you just want to sell and take the felony, be my guest, do it how you want.

That's the problem: they wouldn't take the felony. The buyer shows a fake ID (which I'd venture to say that 25% of college students have), and then the seller is off the hook - they had no reason to know the buyer had several previous assault convictions. Or the seller can just tell the police that he checked the buyer's ID but didn't write it down - how are they to prove otherwise?

Whereas if a background check had to be done, that trick wouldn't work and the seller would know not to sell the gun. How does that not make sense?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5484 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4983 times:

The legislation was meaningless tripe, another attempt at the relentless increase in federal government power.


...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1501 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4982 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Whereas if a background check had to be done, that trick wouldn't work and the seller would know not to sell the gun. How does that not make sense?

Because no one has ever stolen an identity? You steal someone's drivers license, get it remade, put your picture onto it, and viola, pass a NICS check using their information. Quite simply, criminals who want guns are going to get them. More legislation isn't going to fix a darn thing. Prosecuting all gun crimes to the fullest extend of the law is where things need to be started.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4966 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer,reply=18Because no one has ever stolen an identity?][/quote]

Sure, it's happened. But it's a hell of a lot more difficult than to just go pick up a fake ID for $5.

[quote=DiamondFlyer
(Reply 18):
Prosecuting all gun crimes to the fullest extend of the law is where things need to be started.

I'll start taking that idea seriously when the NRA stops neutering the enforcement mechanisms through budget cuts and other legislative restrictions. Until then, it's nothing but a distracting talking point.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11453 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4960 times:

Quoting roswell41 (Thread starter):
the so called 'universal' background check bill failed to garner the 60 votes required for passage.

A majority of Senators voted in favor of it, but it still did not pass. What a stupid system. The right-wing cries about how they are the victims because they are not in control. This sure looks like they are in control! Besides, 90% of Americans wanted this bill. 90 EFFIN PER CENT!! That 40+ Senators would vote for what NRA wants instead of what the MAJORITY of Americans want just shows what a broken system we have.

My advice: If they have huge amounts of money in their "war chest" don't vote for them! I don't care what letter they have behind their name. If NRA or big oil or big pharma or Koch Bros. or which ever industry supports them, they need to be ousted. And now! That is how we do revolution in this country. Not with guns and Molotov cocktails, but with votes.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1159 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4951 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 18):
Quite simply, criminals who want guns are going to get them.

Many of the people who have committed mass shootings and other such things in the US had no previous criminal history and no contacts to people who sell illegal guns, for those this kind of thing would make it significantly harder to get a gun.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29782 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4941 times:

Thank god this piece of legislation did not pass.

It was simply a pathetic attempt by the Democrats to remove another part of the consitution and never should have gotten as far as it did.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Which goes to show you know nothing other than what the media spoon feeds you. Internet sales, legally, must go thru an FFL, which, thus requires the use of form 4473, which is the NICS background check.

Yup, the alleged gun-show loophole is a myth. It has never existed, it is only a talking point used by uniformed anti-gun nuts to try and destroy our freedoms. But the problem is that too many people are ignorant of firearms, how to use them and what they are for. I see that problem as only getting worse as people, especially those is less free countries such as Great Britian and Australia get farther away from the change that took away their freedoms and more used to the lack thereof.

They are simply not willing to educate themselves.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
But that is not all the bill said. If that was all it was, I could have also supported it. But it includes budget items, establishes a new bureaucracy, compliance reporting and punishment on the states, etc. Read it. A good example of how something that should be very simple gets messed up when you give it to Washington to try to manage.

Of course many of those people who didn't read the specifics of this bill where also the same people who didn't mind the fact that Pelosi would let us read the health care act to find out what was in it until after it passed.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 11):
I am damned sure NOT proud to be an American,

You are more then welcome to go at any time to some place more fitting for your lack of faith in the US.

Frankly I lack faith in the administration, I don't make the mistake of calling that the US.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 11):
This was a common sense measure

No it wasn't. It took away one of the core civil rights that we have. You disagreeing with that right is right up there with George Wallace, a democrat governor standing in the schoolhouse door because he didn't believe in the right of education either.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
. This sure looks like they are in control! Besides, 90% of Americans wanted this bill. 90 EFFIN PER CENT!!

I have no faith in that statistic and frankly suspect that the poll was cooked, meaning that the questions where staged to cause the outcome. It is very common if partisan polling to do that. And since most of the polling operations are based out of the east coast I have my doubts on their willingness to be impartial.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
That 40+ Senators would vote for what NRA

They voted for freedom, they voted for common sense, they voted for yours and mine civil rights. You many not choose to exercise that right but I do.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
If NRA or big oil or big pharma or Koch Bros. or which ever industry supports them, they need to be ousted.

Funny how you didn't list Bloombergs anti-gun group, Giffords, Anti-gun group, The super-pac that just formed from the remnants of Obummers campaign machine, Moveon.org or any other liberal or progressive hate group up to and including the democratic party itself.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11453 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4927 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
They voted for freedom, they voted for common sense, they voted for yours and mine civil rights

Like the right to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the person carrying that weapon has no criminal history or history of mental disorder? Like that history?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
It is very common if partisan polling to do that

Unless FOX does the poll. Then, it is patriotic. Funny how Pew is a reputable polling company. Unless the facts skew to the "liberal" side. Then, they are made up.


Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
Funny how you didn't list

And you conveniently forgot the part where I said:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
I don't care what letter they have behind their name.

I know it bothers you that multi-national corporations contribute to the right-wing. That "bothering you" feeling is called conscience. But, also, look at the numbers. How much did the big corporations contribute to right-wing campaigns vs. left-wing campaigns and look at how many total Americans voted right-wing vs. left wing.

I stand by my original statement:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
I don't care what letter they have behind their name.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4923 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 17):
The legislation was meaningless tripe, another attempt at the relentless increase in federal government power.

Seems like your in the !0% minority there !

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
I see that problem as only getting worse as people, especially those is less free countries such as Great Britian and Australia get farther away from the change that took away their freedoms and more used to the lack thereof.

Don't you dare compare Australia to the US regarding lack of freedoms. We live a VERY peaceful nation, compared to you, with out ANY doubt. What is it again, 32,000 die a year from gun related deaths  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!

Well, you go right on singing the same o'l tune, because you are on the slippery sloop of loosing far more than we ever will because your not willing to change !

Believe me L-188, there is absoulty NO problem here in Australia or Great Britain for that matter, at least not when we see our nightly news, and whats occurring in the US.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
They are simply not willing to educate themselves.

After reading this, Ive never laughed so loud in my life.               

Mate, that's what the international Press is saying about Americans, NOT Australians.   



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
25 jpetekyxmd80 : Um, which part would that be. Where did you get these talking points, Mindless-Cliches-R-US? Coming from an outspoken proponent of the Alaskan separa
26 L-188 : Actually that is from Star Wars. Richard LeParmentier, aka Admiral Motti passed away today. No Mr. Stormtrooper, these are not the firearms you are l
27 kiwiinoz : You sure you got the right countries there? In what way would they be categorised as, "less free"?. If anything I would describe Australia as more lo
28 Superfly : Awesome! Glad this went down. Too bad there will be other politicians in line to cook up more anti-gun legislation in the future. Just out of curiosi
29 2707200X : Meaningful gun reform would have passed if the Republicans would not have subverted American democracy to a supermajority. These idiots, yes idiots wh
30 KaiGywer : My state's democratic senator voted against the bill, since it was the wish of her constituents. Good for her. Heitkamp said she has heard overwhelmin
31 Maverick623 : Because of this bullcrap: What you're basically saying is that anyone who wants to own an AR-15 is legally insane and/or wants to overthrow the gover
32 AeroWesty : Scientific poll of residents or simply the vocal minority?
33 2707200X : I oppose bg checks because its bullcrap, felonies, I'm mad now, no real answer. There is no reason in this country why these guns are needed for pers
34 rampart : I'm in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. It serves no modern purpose. I have no confidence in allowing you the right to own a gun. You should hav
35 FlyDeltaJets : Even this bill still allowed for no background check for private sale so long as no public advertisement of the selling was made. I think that was a f
36 Post contains images Maverick623 : I opposed this bill, not the concept of background checks. Nice deflection from the name-calling, though. I take it you've never woken up to a strang
37 Aeri28 : yep, the amount of mowed down Europeans coming back to their homelands in body bags underscores your comment. (where's my rolleyes??) ___ Seriously,
38 kiwiinoz : The problem with these gun threads is that they eventually revert back to the same arguments. I must have read 100 of these over the years, and I can
39 Stabilator : Bombing in Boston: Blame the Bomber(s) Shooting in Colorado/CT: Blame the gun. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Not to be insensitive, but Oba
40 RomeoBravo : The US is now ranked 10th on the economic freedom index. Behind Canada, Australia and those horrible socialists in Denmark.
41 ltbewr : Like many, I am disappointed in the failure of this bill, but it was a terribly flawed one, designed to fail. The background checks would also present
42 2707200X : Why should they otherwise not be allowed to be present in voting? Despite what the liars at the NRA says, being against assault riffles is not the sa
43 Mir : Have to correct you here: it was Harry Reid who set the rules to require 60 vites. This was because he didn't want NRA-sponsored amendments to pass.
44 AeroWesty : Here's a novel idea—place the burden of any costs for background checks onto the gun owners. If they want to buy a gun, pay the full cost, don't la
45 rampart : That would be a typical response for a knee-jerk reaction. I didn't say anti-gun. Own one, if you qualify. Own several, if you qualify. But you shoul
46 Aeri28 : A No Confidence vote? On a grand national scale? 54-46 vote. Many are for it. Laws get voted on and it happens or doesn't happen. I didn't get a chan
47 airtran737 : I am quite happy about it failing and I am a CWP holder, and also hold a Department of Defense clearance. Needless to say, I can pass any background
48 soon7x7 : Now it is 11%...If you apply the same logic to the Boston Marathon, then we should ban all marathons as "if we can save one child's life, then its wo
49 rampart : Sort of. These threads (and discussions elsewhere) have altered my opinion. My previous stance was to be pro-gun control but open-minded and listenin
50 Mir : A position which I'm sure America's criminals are glad you have. Then needless to say, you have no need to worry about having to pass a background ch
51 slider : Bottom line is that none of these fascist gun restrictions would have prevented Sandy Hook. Period. And our petulant Lecturer in Chief says it's only
52 seb146 : As I read the responses, here is what I am seeing: Hooray!! Anyone can get any kind of gun and as much ammo as they want! Yay! We can stockpile for wh
53 AeroWesty : Can't really take your post seriously if you don't respect the office, no matter who is elected to serve in it.
54 slider : I do not respect the man in office. I have massive respect for the office of POTUS--just wish the current occupant did. How dare you twist my words.
55 LAXintl : Couple random comments o This was guaranteed to die anyhow when it got to the House. But getting stalled in Senate was a blow for Obama, which I doubt
56 roswell41 : Let's remember in this conversation that Harry Reid is pro-gun and has the backing of the NRA. The NRA is glad to have him as Senate majority leader a
57 AeroWesty : You typed them, not me. Nowhere did I see "president of the united states" in your post, as you should have referred to him if you had any respect fo
58 Mir : 1) What states do not require IDs when voting? 2) Since when does someone have the ability to kill or injure someone with a vote? -Mir
59 AeroWesty : Oregon, for one. You may register to vote with as little as showing a utility bill in your name (which is not verified), then as all of our voting is
60 DiamondFlyer : Yup, I'll go for that, the day that each person applying for a drivers license has to pay all the paperwork costs of getting that license. Hell will
61 slider : Don't be fatuous. I called him the Lecturer in Chief. That's pretty tame compared to the things people called W, after all, right?
62 AeroWesty : I pay the fee that's asked of me by my state to register as a driver and my car to operate on the roads, plus road taxes incorporated in the price of
63 Post contains links and images CalebWilliams : http://bit.ly/13kHMJV
64 seb146 : That's not exactly true. They do have to make sure you are who you say you are and are a legal resident of that address. They do this through DMV. Th
65 AeroWesty : You can download the Oregon voter registration form on the internet (I'd link it, but I don't like to link PDF files), and see what forms of ID are a
66 Mir : So you do have to show some credentials as to who you are. -Mir
67 AeroWesty : Technically, you are simply showing a credential for the name you'd like to use to register to vote. It doesn't verify that you are actually that per
68 LAXintl : California. I registered my nephew last year to vote without ever showing ID. We check the boxes, promised he was a citizen, and all done. Also never
69 DiamondFlyer : Yup, better get that Assault Bomb Ban going, because you know, bombs aren't already illegal, yet people still use them. -DiamondFlyer
70 Post contains links and images arrow : Thanks for my laugh of the day. For all those "less free" countries to match America's current standards of freedom, they'd have to backslide to a si
71 Mir : Might as well make them legal then, so that the law-abiding citizens who want to use bombs can do so without having the big bad government knowing wh
72 DiamondFlyer : Did I say that? No, the point I'm making is that it's very obvious the current laws didn't work. But hey, if you truly believe that if some laws don'
73 Mir : No, but that's the same logic that people who say "criminals are going to get guns anyway, so we don't need new/tougher laws" use. And it's just as f
74 DiamondFlyer : Because when POTUS says that this was just the first step, it's very obvious that he wants to go after more than just a background check. He wants to
75 AeroWesty : Your argument would hold vastly greater weight if the right to bear arms was a right given to you by the states, but it isn't, it's a federal constit
76 DiamondFlyer : If that argument held any water, the California and NY AWB's would be unconstitutional. So which is it? -DiamondFlyer
77 AeroWesty : Assault weapon bans don't infringe upon your right to bear arms, so those laws aren't unconstitutional. The constitution only guarantees your right t
78 Ken777 : This is the most shameful vote that I can recall in my lifetime. It is a vote that allows felons and the mentally ill free reign at gun shows. It is a
79 Mir : That doesn't answer my question. How does having to get a background check to buy a gun prevent you from defending yourself? If you want to vote no o
80 DiamondFlyer : I'm not against the background check expansion. I'm against in when what was proposed will do absolutely nothing to stop any crime. A vast majority o
81 AeroWesty : You don't know that. Making it harder for some people who shouldn't be bearing arms may be just enough to prevent some crimes or deaths. It's the sam
82 MSPNWA : When I heard there wasn't enough votes, I hadn't felt so relieved by an act of Congress in a long, long time. Common sense ruled yesterday. It was a m
83 flanker : Sorry, its a constitutional right. We, including the feds get our rights from the constitution.
84 Post contains images Revelation : Thanks, Harry Reid, an incredible moron more concerned about his personal power in the Senate than doing his job as a legislator. The idea behind the
85 AeroWesty : Uhhh, that's what I said. See:
86 DiamondFlyer : You do realize how stupid this statement is, right? Oh look, all these laws, we don't enforce them, so lets make new ones to enforce that will make n
87 Mir : Okay, and where do those thugs get the guns from? -Mir
88 flanker : You have to be careful how you word things. The feds are not the constitution.
89 AeroWesty : Constitutional rights are implemented at the federal level.
90 seb146 : Again: no. I grew up in Umatilla County. In such a close knit community, I knew what happens with such things. They actually have to check to make su
91 Post contains links AeroWesty : If you're going to argue a point, make sure you have the right info. According to the Oregon Secretary of State, you may even register to vote if you
92 Post contains links Stabilator : Read my reply about stakeholders. Gun owners aren't gonna roll over to knee-jerk gun control legislation any more than senior citizens are going to r
93 Post contains images Ken777 : I'm sure a fully automatic rifle with a 30 round clip is great for deer hunting. Hunt with a few buddies and you can get 100+ rounds into that deer b
94 SmittyOne : No offense but I think I'll pass on your brand of 'civilization' for now! Prefer taking my chances with the insanity we have here over Europe's tende
95 Stabilator : Now now, Ken, lets not make things up. You cannot purchase, legally, a fully automatic rifle. It is hard to convert a semi to a full unless you have
96 Mir : Nothing, if you're someone who is eligible to own a firearm. If you're someone who couldn't pass a background check, on the other hand, I'd say it's
97 DiamondFlyer : I'm glad someone got to this point before I did. But, like the media wants, they have the public so clueless on guns, that they get what they want. P
98 AeroWesty : As amended, the constitution does indeed grant some rights. For instance, the 6th amendment grants the right to a speedy trial. Other rights are gran
99 TheCommodore : I wouldn't be so sure, the seed has been sown, and should another Sandy Bay happen (only a matter of time) then Obama can reclaim the moral high grou
100 DeltaMD90 : Wow, a few months ago I feared some of the more liberal measures (that went to far, IMO) would pass, but common sense ones like background checks don'
101 LAXintl : No can do. Some clever liberals tried that and got slapped by courts. Its considered punitive, and act clearly meant to limit access to an inherit ri
102 L-188 : Rumors are now that obummer Will attempt to circumvent the congressional process with more executive orders. This is of course ib complete agreement w
103 Stabilator : I am not diverting anything. They were provisions in the bill. Background checks make sense, as I pointed out in my first post in this thread. But to
104 Revelation : You do realize how stupid this statement is, right? [ See, I copied your exact question - clever, no? ] If law X is difficult to enforce you consider
105 DiamondFlyer : Thanks for making my point, you don't get it. In your world, there is nothing but black and white. That work doesn't exist in our form of government
106 Post contains links Mir : No, they weren't. The amendment specifically prohibits a gun registry [Sec. 122, paragraph (c), on page 28 of the linked document], and contains no r
107 SmittyOne : I say a person inherently has the right to not be held hostage by the rest of his fellow men (via the government), whether there is a Constitution or
108 AeroWesty : What you stated originally: I answered: You replied: Which was totally off-topic. I could go through your post and do a similar comparison with all of
109 par13del : The reverse of that is to say that this bill was defeated because persons are against background checks. If there is any silver lining its that folks
110 SmittyOne : Contrary to your accusation I actually was trying to make a distinction that I thought was worthwhile and relevant to the topic at the time. But it p
111 Post contains images Ken777 : And the probability is very high that not passing the law will result in an increase in crime by those who buy at gun shows and aren't checked. The C
112 DiamondFlyer : Ah, to hell with the facts, I'll just use emotion to try to get what I want. Brilliant -DiamondFlyer
113 seb146 : Like that he has signed fewer executive orders than the right-wingers before him? What rights are those being taken away? The right to have a back gr
114 Ken777 : Unlike, say, the hard core anti-abortionists who are blinded by emotion, mine was tongue in cheek, which Stabilator was able to spot.
115 rampart : Understood. And I agree with your suggested measures. Well, if he did, he'd be representing the will of the people (and the Senate itself, which actu
116 mmedford : This guy has it...
117 par13del : If it is truly that and those in authority want to do the peoples will, why all the other aspects of the bill, why no do what the majority of people
118 SmittyOne : Good god man I nearly choked on my breakfast - at least put "quotes" around that LOL. Washington DC is so far below Moral Sea Level that residents wh
119 Post contains links and images zkojq : Is any of this really a surprise, considering the NRA is the US's most influential lobby? TDS did a great piece today contrasting what happened in Aus
120 SmittyOne : I'm not convinced that an abundance of governability is a virtue.[Edited 2013-04-19 06:43:15]
121 par13del : A sad commentary if true, rather than doing what he was elected to do during his term he is doing less to preserve a legacy for when his party is out
122 Geezer : "Probably" is an awfully big word.........I challenge you to name 100 countries that have as much freedom as we have in the U.S. (BTW........your cou
123 jpetekyxmd80 : Are you for real? Oh, thats right, you are.
124 AeroWesty : You may search my record on this, then issue your apology.
125 Revelation : Look at your smartphone - how black and white does that look to you? Laws are a lot like software instructions, they are written expressions that hav
126 b787900 : As someone who lives in Canada I beg to disagree. Instead of passing the blame to a foreign country, it would be wise to look at the real causes of t
127 cmf : The 32k number is correct but it includes suicides. Calling it false is pretty dishonest. You just need to understand what it includes. The argument
128 seb146 : Two kids were murdered this week in Richmond, California in broad daylight. They were leaving a friend's home and some coward walked up to them and sh
129 Revelation : Sen Ayotte, covering herself in glory meeting with victims of handgun violence: Your concern is the poor gun retailers? Really? Even when 86% of the c
130 AeroWesty : Militias not regulated by the government may be viewed as rebellious or treasonous.
131 BMI727 : The Bill of Rights doesn't give anybody anything. The entire thing is a waste of paper that does more harm than good. It also had something to do wit
132 AeroWesty : Thank you kind sir for saving me a life of worry over the constitution. Whew!
133 BMI727 : Not the constitution, just the Bill of Rights. It opens the door to more than one dangerous fallacy.
134 Post contains images AeroWesty : *facepalm* How stupid of me! BMI727 to the rescue again. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
135 seb146 : No matter how a person interprets the first Ten Amendments of the Constitution, that is just about the most unpatriotic and horrific thing anyone cou
136 BMI727 : No it's not, the entire thing is a screw up and Alexander Hamilton was right. There are two major problems that can arise from the Bill of Rights. Fi
137 Geezer : Correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinctly remember someone telling me that, Quote: "one line replies are generally of no use, and are therefore not a
138 Mir : I wouldn't have thought you as the sort of person to say that a limitation on the powers of government (which is what the Bill of Rights is) would be
139 BMI727 : The problem isn't that it places limits on the government. The problem is that the Bill of Rights, unintentionally, places limits on the limits. No,
140 airportugal310 : I don't really have a dog in this fight (although I do love going to the shooting range to relieve some stress from time to time) but my observation i
141 Mir : Except for the 10th Amendment. What other consistent standard is there? It's more a question of "if you couldn't buy a gun at a dealer, why should yo
142 jpetekyxmd80 : Who cares the exact date and location of your birth? What does it even matter anymore? Uh, that's what happens when you become President. What is you
143 Ken777 : Well, in Australia there is more Freedom from hunger than in the US and more Freedom from poverty than in the US. And Australia can teach the US a lo
144 Maverick623 : The Constitution has already been de facto suspended. Two prominent Senators have publicly said that a US citizen in the US has no 4th or 5th Amendme
145 BMI727 : Unfortunately, in practice it doesn't work. There isn't one, but the idea of a Bill of Rights should not even be applicable to America anyway. A list
146 Dreadnought : Freedom from Poverty and Hunger? Talk about spin! You might have such a condition in North Korea but in America, everyone is free from hunger and pov
147 BMI727 : The Constitution is fine, but the Bill of Rights is more trouble than it's worth.
148 Ken777 : Tell that to those getting one meal a day, or kids who depend on their school meals to be able to concentrate in class. I have no problems with that
149 WSTAKL : As an outsider (not from the USA) it amazes me how authorities can shut down an entire city in order to capture a couple of terrorists, but are unable
150 Maverick623 : How to put this... I would gladly either give or take as many bullets as it necessary to ensure the rights contained in the first 10 Amendments are u
151 BMI727 : The problem with the Bill of Rights isn't what's in it, but rather what isn't in it and therefore can sometimes be presumed to not exist. Really the
152 Dreadnought : Only by Progressive/Liberal interpretations of the Constitution. The 9th Amendment was supposed to cover this issue. Just because a certain right is
153 BMI727 : You cannot misinterpret what does not exist. And that's part of why it's a bad idea and does more harm than good. That's a poor stance to take since
154 Dreadnought : It's why it was so brilliant. The people rule. That's the way it was supposed to work. Blame Progressives (of both parties) who have chipped away at
155 BMI727 : And then at the end the Bill of Rights was added which implies that the people may, in fact, not rule. If I give you a list of places you aren't allo
156 Post contains images zkojq : Problem being that when urgent issues need to be addressed, political polarisation makes any action rather difficult. Then again, I guess that means
157 Dreadnought : That is the reason for the 9th amendment - to completely kill that line of thinking. The 9th amendment was added by the Federalists who believed that
158 rampart : Sorry I came across that way, my personal stance was confused with general opinion. Polls I read showed 70-90% favor for gun control, specifically in
159 BMI727 : It doesn't work. No matter how you slice it, the existence of the Bill of Rights creates classes of rights. If there is a list of rights people do ha
160 rampart : I don't regularly agree with your political stance, but you've raised some compelling points about the existence of the Bill of Rights. My 10% Libert
161 Mir : Are you saying we don't? If so, you're mistaken - we vote them in, after all. If they don't do what we want, we can vote them out again. That seems l
162 SmittyOne : Or that the minority shouldn't say things that the majority find disruptive or dangerous? Or that the minority shouldn't worship different gods than
163 Ken777 : IIRC, the Constitution was written at a time when personal loyalty was first to your state, then to this new thing called the United States. The Cons
164 Mir : Witness the suggestion during the 2nd Iraq War that people who spoke out against the war were giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Without the 1st Am
165 Ken777 : There are some GOP politicians looking for some publicity and their audience are going to be right wing nuts. Reality is that the Federal Government
166 flyingclrs727 : And tell me how many such convicts have been put to death by the federal government since the federal death penalty was reinstated? It's exactly one,
167 seb146 : The right hates this. Yes, it does, indeed need to be spelled out. Meaning: any person with any colored skin can sit at any lunch counter. Any person
168 BMI727 : You're making my point for me. What you describe are all second class rights that are less important than, say, freedom of speech or assembly. They a
169 Post contains links Revelation : Interesting how all of a sudden conservative lawmakers like Lindsey Graham feel we don't have enough laws: Ref: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/20.
170 Dreadnought : So you are saying that their should be a national registry and background check for pressure cookers?
171 Revelation : -1 for the lame response. Officer Sean Collier wasn't killed by a pressure cooker, he died of gunshot wounds. Officer Richard Donohue wasn't severely
172 cmf : You really think they are the same?
173 seb146 : And, it was because of the lists not being absolute and clear that we had "colored" drinking fountains and "colored" rest rooms and "coloreds" had to
174 Dreadnought : OK, next question: Would a background check have prevented the perp from owning a gun? As far as I know his record was pretty clean. Or should simply
175 mt99 : The existing background check? or an improved one?
176 Dreadnought : Either one.
177 mt99 : Then i would say yes - in hopes that an "improved one" would be able to stop them. Unfortunately thanks to the NRA - we will never know, we will neve
178 DiamondFlyer : How? What had the guy done previously that would have made him ineligible for ownership of a gun. -DiamondFlyer
179 mt99 : Well that the whole point isn't it? I haven't run a background check on him - so how would i l know? Have you run a background check on him? do you k
180 DiamondFlyer : Well, considering that they didn't posses a Massachusetts gun permit, thus they couldn't legally own the firearms in the state of Massachusetts, enha
181 AeroWesty : You and Dreadnought: Stop being internet gun bullies. You know perfectly well that there's no real public information on where the brothers obtained
182 mt99 : Unless - of course, sales of guns would have to be registered - so the path of the guns would have been traced and potentially stopped. Foolproof and
183 SmittyOne : But the list isn't absolute or clear, thankfully. By your logic the 14th Amendment should have read "The Government shall pass no laws permitting sep
184 mt99 : We are talking about guns not cutlery. Again with the slippery slope arguments. Besides, we already want database and ID from voters, immigrants must
185 DiamondFlyer : No, they aren't. Those things aren't things we should be doing either. Don't paint me as some far right wing nut job. -DiamondFlyer
186 mt99 : Then please stop being silly. Focus on the issue. Guns - not lawnmowers.
187 DiamondFlyer : Neither of these statements make sense to me. Why am I being silly, because I want to exercise my 2nd amendment rights? Do I think there is a method
188 AeroWesty : That's incorrect. There's plenty of ownership information in federal, state, and local databases.
189 DiamondFlyer : Do tell, what personal property is held within one federal database? -DiamondFlyer
190 AeroWesty : My fingerprints, for one (submitted for a federal license). Whether I have a safe deposit box is another (info gathered from tax returns). You want s
191 DiamondFlyer : None of those are personal tangible property. None of those require you to notify the feds as a mandated condition to own them. Sorry, a mandated fed
192 AeroWesty : No no no no no. Not so quick. You asked: You put no qualifications on it. My fingerprints are my property. They are also tangible personal property,
193 mt99 : Because you are willingly mixing unrelated issues to prove a point. Let me ask you something using the same though process you are using: If register
194 Revelation : Then I guess you aren't in the "too many laws" camp? They certainly know about personal as well as corporate aircraft ownership.
195 Dreadnought : Excuse me? You guys are trying to use this event to further your argument for more background checks (never let a crisis go to waste), I ask for any
196 Mir : It might have. We know they didn't have gun licenses, so with a background check in place they wouldn't have had any luck trying to buy a gun legally
197 Dreadnought : Fair enough answer, the details of the state's licensing requirements notwithstanding. Thank you for being more civilized with your answer than some.
198 seb146 : Just like we have no cars in this country? The feds keep copious amounts of information on us all. Through voting records, Social Security, Medicare,
199 mt99 : Then we can point out that existing licensing and/or registration do not go far enough .. The question is - would having no license and no registrati
200 Post contains links Mir : Cambridge and Dartmouth police have said they didn't. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...mm_ref=false#sb=4600318,b=facebook In that article, it's
201 AeroWesty : The argument is continually begun by gun advocates that increased regulation wouldn't have prevented gun violence tragedies. You were the first one t
202 DeltaMD90 : Background checks or registration may indeed have stopped Boston. Maybe he got the gun from a straw purchase and the person selling the gun to him wou
203 Ken777 : How many US citizens have set off a "terrorist" bomb (that, of course, excludes Right-To-Life Bombs) equal to Boston or OKC? Considering the length o
204 MSPNWA : Looks like Al-CIAda is not privy with U.S. gun laws or shows. There's no such thing as the "gun show loophole", since nobody is circumventing laws. P
205 Post contains images cmf : The loophole is that you can legally buy weapons without background check. There has never been a suggestion it isn't legal. The problem has always b
206 Mir : They're circumventing the background check. I don't doubt it, but such gun shows are out there. Then where? It's not from dealers (unless they're cor
207 Post contains links Revelation : Seems I'm not alone in this: Kelly Ayotte's Approval Rating Plunges After Vote Against Gun Background Checks Some of the details don't bode too well
208 Post contains links AeroWesty : If you need instant financing to buy a gun at a legitimate gun shop, it's just become more difficult for you: GE Capital Cuts Gun Shop Purchase Loans
209 Ken777 : Looks like GE finally realized the undesirable aspects of financing gun purchases. The might have even financed some of the guns involved in the kill
210 Dreadnought : I've never heard of anyone buying a gun on credit. I doubt it will have any impact.
211 AeroWesty : Yet enough do for GE Capital to have become involved in it. I've never actually seen anyone buy a gun, but I know that in spite of that, guns do get
212 Revelation : Head on down to the 'hood, it happens every day....
213 Post contains links mt99 : GE Credit is the provider for Dick's Sporting Goods. They sell guns. http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/ca...goryId=12243958&cp=4413993.4414427 ht
214 Post contains images bmacleod : By not implementing at least some gun legislation I guess kids are better off and safer in heaven, is that what Congress is saying? Sure looks that wa
215 wingman : I read in the news today that a 5 year old shot his 2 year old sister with his brand new hunting rifle. Mom apparently stepped out for just a few seco
216 Post contains links AeroWesty : I honestly thought you'd made this up just to stir things up. Then I googled ... Coroner: 5-year-old shoots 2-year-old sister in Ky. with his gun; mo
217 cmf : What can charging them add? What punishment can be added that is worse than having lost your kid like that? Who would enjoy the revenge of knowing th
218 AeroWesty : Setting an example for other parents. Endangering your child causing death = jail time. People have had their children taken from them and drop-kicke
219 Dreadnought : Their negligence. Not the gun. That won't help. No parent intentionally walks out of the room knowing their kids are in mortal danger. It's darwinism
220 Post contains images AeroWesty : I never blamed the gun. And people who didn't mean to are put away for negligent homicide all the time.
221 Dreadnought : As they should be. Castrated too.
222 cmf : I just don't see how anything can be a bigger deterrent than the loss of your child. When that isn't enough nothing is. Why do the gun unrestricted g
223 AeroWesty : Suffering over the loss of your child isn't sufficient to repay your debt to society for causing a death due to your negligence. That's a basic of pe
224 cmf : What suffering is more than the loss of your child? Sure you can through them in jail but what does it help? I can't see how anyone is more scared ab
225 AeroWesty : We're simply going to disagree on this issue. Heck, some parents in California just had their child taken away from them for transferring him to anot
226 Dreadnought : Do you blame the Boston Bombing on the pressure cookers?
227 Post contains images cmf : I'm not sure we disagree that much. All I stated is that it is an impossible situation where more punishment doesn't improve the situation. I made it
228 Skydrol : The intended purpose of pressure cookers is to cook food quickly. The intended purpose of the types of guns being discussed is to kill or maim from a
229 Dreadnought : I have never refused that gun control CAN be about how people interact with guns, and do not object to the principle. But I also maintain that gun co
230 Post contains images cmf : What else than how people interact with guns can it be? And the way you do that is by bringing up pressure cookers? But I'll bite. Is it your stateme
231 Post contains links and images Revelation : Uhm, are you referring to the amendment co-authored by Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) and Sen. Patrick Toomey (R-Pa.) ? I can't find any serious discussi
232 Mir : So if it's a problem with the people and not the guns, why can't we background check the people? -Mir
233 DiamondFlyer : I don't think 95% of American's, gun owners or not, have an issue with that, I certainly don't. But the problem is, this bill was way, way, way more
234 Mir : A number which, broadly speaking, is reflected in the polls. Yet here we are, with just such a proposal voted down by a Senate too cowardly to vote t
235 DiamondFlyer : None of that. It was all the BS political pork that was attached deep in the bill. The bill had no need to be long at all, yet they did everything th
236 Mir : Such as? Looking for specifics here. -Mir
237 DiamondFlyer : Well, lets start with the name. Call it something about background checks for firearms. Not the Safe Communities, Safe Schools Act. And lets look at
238 Dreadnought : Correct. That's not what the proposal was. I posted the entire bill in in reply 9. Read it. It establishes a bureaucracy. And this will inevitably (b
239 Post contains links Mir : Look, I hate cute legislative names as much as the next guy, but you're seriously going to let that affect whether you support a bill or not? But tha
240 Superfly : So wait minute. If I sold and old Lincoln Continental that was used in a drive-by shooting or used to run over somebody, should I be held accountable
241 Mir : Quite the reverse. The law makes it clear that you would not be held accountable. I'd be very surprised if some of them weren't. But we're not just t
242 DiamondFlyer : Say what? Senate bill S.649, proposed senate amendment 711. Look it up. Another amendment that had nothing to do with gun background checks, senate a
243 Mir : So you're going to justify a no vote on an amendment because you don't like a different amendement (which, by the way, was never going to pass) to th
244 DiamondFlyer : Have you not seen what I'm advocating. Put the background check bill, as is, with no amendments or anything, and it would pass. Stop mucking up the s
245 Mir : That was what Toomey-Manchin was. And it still failed. -Mir
246 DeltaMD90 : I'd gain the utmost respect for the Republican that would try and sponsor a good background check bill with no strings attached. It appears that, des
247 Mir : There was a main bill (the one that Dreadnought linked to), and then there were a bunch of amendments to it. Most of them never had a shot at passage
248 Post contains images AeroWesty : Interesting conversation to follow, since when I expressed my support for that amendment earlier, I was told: Carry on.
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