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F1 2013: Bahrain Grand Prix  
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5693 posts, RR: 44
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2579 times:
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Time to head for another F1 race in a far off place that does not give a damn..



Here we go again...

Quoting Autosport:
Bahrain seeking season-opening slot, Ecclestone open to the idea
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106873

Whilst I understand( but don't have to like) that the $$ driven beast that is the modern F1 circus has to bow to those with the big cheque books and must have races at .. ego over sport travesties like, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi etc

I also believe that the opening and closing races MUST be at a circuit(or at least in a country) that has a passion and a fan base that actually cares about the racing.. certainly that excludes the ME races.
Bernie's $$ driven accreditation process will certainly prevail!!!


If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13078 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2575 times:

There is also the issue of having races in countries with questionable human rights policies including those in the Gulf States, China, and others. Of course that could also include the USA in some ways and to some people. It is too bad money trumps what a sport means.

User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Thanks for opening the thread, Stealthz!

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
Whilst I understand( but don't have to like) that the $$ driven beast that is the modern F1 circus has to bow to those with the big cheque books and must have races at .. ego over sport travesties like, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi etc

I also believe that the opening and closing races MUST be at a circuit(or at least in a country) that has a passion and a fan base that actually cares about the racing.. certainly that excludes the ME races.
Bernie's $$ driven accreditation process will certainly prevail!!!

You mean that any F1 race should not happen at all in a country that has no passion and fan base, not just the opening or the closing ones  
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 1):
There is also the issue of having races in countries with questionable human rights policies including those in the Gulf States, China, and others.

True   



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

And these are the results of Friday's free practice:

Free practice 1

1 F Massa (BRA) Ferrari 1'34.487
2 F Alonso (ESP) Ferrari 1'34.564
3 N Rosberg (GER) Mercedes 1'34.621
4 S Vettel (GER) Red Bull 1'34.790
5 P di Resta (GBR) Force India 1'34.949
6 J Button (GBR) McLaren 1'35.069
7 M Webber (AUS) Red Bull 1'35.101
8 A Sutil (GER) Force India 1'35.119
9 KM Räikkönen (FIN) Lotus 1'35.345
10 R Grosjean (FRA) Lotus 1'35.611
11 S Perez (MEX) McLaren 1'35.640
12 V Bottas (FIN) Williams 1'35.783
13 LC Hamilton (GBR) Mercedes 1'35.792
14 JE Vergne (FRA) Toro Rosso 1'36.014
15 D Ricciardo (AUS) Toro Rosso 1'36.485
16 P Maldonado (VEN) Williams 1'36.498
17 N Hülkenberg (GER) Sauber 1'36.755
18 E Gutiérrez (MEX) Sauber 1'37.214
19 C Pic (FRA) Caterham 1'37.850
20 H Kovalainen (FIN) Caterham 1'38.401
21 M Chilton (GBR) Marussia 1'39.445
22 R Gonzalez (VEN) Marussia 1'40.215


Free practice 2

1 KM Räikkönen (FIN) Lotus 1'34.154
2 M Webber (AUS) Red Bull 1'34.184
3 S Vettel (GER) Red Bull 1'34.282
4 F Alonso (ESP) Ferrari 1'34.310
5 P di Resta (GBR) Force India 1'34.543
6 F Massa (BRA) Ferrari 1'34.552
7 R Grosjean (FRA) Lotus 1'34.631
8 N Rosberg (GER) Mercedes 1'34.666
9 A Sutil (GER) Force India 1'34.932
10 LC Hamilton (GBR) Mercedes 1'34.976
11 J Button (GBR) McLaren 1'35.356
12 JE Vergne (FRA) Toro Rosso 1'35.506
13 S Perez (MEX) McLaren 1'35.589
14 D Ricciardo (AUS) Toro Rosso 1'35.761
15 N Hülkenberg (GER) Sauber 1'36.133
16 P Maldonado (VEN) Williams 1'36.279
17 V Bottas (FIN) Williams 1'36.579
18 E Gutiérrez (MEX) Sauber 1'36.616
19 C Pic (FRA) Caterham 1'37.061
20 M Chilton (GBR) Marussia 1'37.313
21 J Bianchi (FRA) Marussia 1'37.363
22 G van der Garde (NED) Caterham 1'37.970



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7293 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
Bernie's $$ driven accreditation process will certainly prevail!!!

Bernie's old, he'll be dead soon, F1 will change.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5693 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2457 times:
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Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 2):
You mean that any F1 race should not happen at all in a country that has no passion and fan base, not just the opening or the closing ones

Well yes, that is what I mean.. there are plenty of places where the racing would be more appreciated!
The almost empty spectator areas during qualifying are a disgrace and I think the F1 community should be embarrassed by it.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently onlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2606 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2420 times:
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Qualifying results:

Pos Driver Team/Car Time Gap
1. Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1m32.330s
2. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1m32.584s + 0.254s
3. Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1m32.667s + 0.337s
4. Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1m32.762s + 0.432s
5. Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1m33.078s + 0.748s
6. Felipe Massa Ferrari 1m33.207s + 0.877s
7. Paul di Resta Force India-Mercedes 1m33.235s + 0.905s
8. Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1m33.246s + 0.916s
9. Kimi Raikkonen Lotus-Renault 1m33.327s + 0.997s
10. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes
Q2 cut-off time: 1m33.702s Gap **
11. Romain Grosjean Lotus-Renault 1m33.762s + 1.016s
12. Sergio Perez McLaren-Mercedes 1m33.914s + 1.168s
13. Daniel Ricciardo Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m33.974s + 1.228s
14. Nico Hulkenberg Sauber-Ferrari 1m33.976s + 1.230s
15. Valtteri Bottas Williams-Renault 1m34.105s + 1.359s
16. Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m34.284s + 1.538s
Q1 cut-off time: 1m34.425s Gap *
17. Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1m34.425s + 1.547s
18. Esteban Gutierrez Sauber-Ferrari 1m34.730s + 1.852s
19. Charles Pic Caterham-Renault 1m35.283s + 2.405s
20. Jules Bianchi Marussia-Cosworth 1m36.178s + 3.300s
21. Giedo van der Garde Caterham-Renault 1m36.304s + 3.426s
22. Max Chilton Marussia-Cosworth 1m36.476s + 3.598s

Webber has a three place grid penalty and will start 8th; Hamilton has a 5 place grid penalty having changed his gearbox, which means he'll start 9th.

Bahrain is not usually a circuit for memorable races, but with tyre degradation and two DRS zones, that might change this year.

In other news, I'm not sure if I'm hearing things, but I heard Martin Brundle mention during Q1 that Pirelli is rumoured to have signed a five year extension to their F1 tyre supply deal, taking it to the end of the 2018 season. I like what Pirelli have done with the tyres to spice things up a bit in F1, even though it's somewhat artificial. Still, I would really like to see another manufacturer enter the sport. F1 needs another tyre war!



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineTheSultanOfWing From El Salvador, joined Dec 2012, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Okay, I just flashed up my crystal ball; so here goes:

Race will be won by Alonso who has the better start and a slightly better race pace.
Webber and Massa will come forward by quite a bit, but Vettel will still take 2nd place......the Mercedes and Renault team will not have the pace tomorrow!

The above are not my hopes........but I feel that's what will happen!
How nice to have made a complete fool out of myself by tomorrow night, time will tell!

I can't watch the race, I will count on you guys (and other sources) to fill me in on the highlights!


Enjoy!


Edited: spelling.

[Edited 2013-04-20 10:35:40]


I feel like the A318 at times: I am probably worth more parted out than as a whole.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1338 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 6):
I like what Pirelli have done with the tyres to spice things up a bit in F1, even though it's somewhat artificial.

I'd rather they kept the tyres the same and did something about DRS. Overtaking is way too easy now. I think the gap needed between the two cars for it to be activated needs to be reduced; to perhaps 0.75 seconds. Would make it just a little more difficult to get past.

I like the tyres though. Tyres shouldn't last forever, or what's the point of pit stops?



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6608 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2344 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 6):
I like what Pirelli have done with the tyres to spice things up a bit in F1, even though it's somewhat artificial. Still, I would really like to see another manufacturer enter the sport. F1 needs another tyre war!

Those two things are opposite to each other. Pirelli can do such things precisely because all the teams get the same (crappy) tyres.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 8):
what's the point of pit stops?

There is no point. That's why they didn't exist for a long time, and when I started watching F1 back in 2005 they were only for fuel, no tyres change. Now they're only for that, go figure !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1338 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2343 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
There is no point. That's why they didn't exist for a long time, and when I started watching F1 back in 2005 they were only for fuel, no tyres change. Now they're only for that, go figure !

I don't think I'd like to see F1 without pit stops though, so if they ban refuelling then the tyres need to not last the whole race.

I'd settle for refuelling coming back instead though- I think getting rid of that was a mistake.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6608 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

The problem currently is that we don't get really fast cars and action at the end of races because the tyres are dead and the track is littered with crap from those same tyres.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7293 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
and when I started watching F1 back in 2005 they were only for fuel, no tyres change.

Which was absurd and lead to the ridiculous race at Indy where all the Michelin runners pulled out. Luckily the rule was changed for the 2006 season, back to what it had been before 2005, which allowed tyre changes.

[Edited 2013-04-21 00:01:46]

User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1333 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2327 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
The problem currently is that we don't get really fast cars and action at the end of races because the tyres are dead and the track is littered with crap from those same tyres.

And yet Vettel set the fastest lap time on the 4th last lap in Shanghai, using a fresh set of option tyres.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently onlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2606 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2314 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
Those two things are opposite to each other. Pirelli can do such things precisely because all the teams get the same (crappy) tyres.

Not necessarily. If another tyre manufacturer comes in and produces tyres that are slower and don't degrade as quickly as the Pirellis do ... or are otherwise different in some measurable form, we could see cars shod with another manufacturer's tyres have an advantage one race and a disadvantage the next, etc. A tyre war will spark further advancements in design and manufacturing of these tyres.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
I started watching F1 back in 2005 they were only for fuel, no tyres change.

I started watching F1 in 1994 - the year they banned electronic aids and re-introduced refuelling. Personally, I think they should re-introduce refuelling during pit stops.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 10):
I'd settle for refuelling coming back instead though- I think getting rid of that was a mistake.

I agree, but on one proviso: scrap the parc ferme rule. Let the cars qualify on fumes, and let them put as much or as little fuel as they want to start the race, so no one knows who will start heavy and who will have a short first stint. That was the only thing that ruined races during the recent refuelling era.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3746 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2294 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 8):
Overtaking is way too easy now.

Well now, a few years back, people complained that there was no overtaking at all in F1. These were the snoozeworthy years of Schumarcher's domination. Nothing happened. The cars arrived pretty much the way they started... DRS is one of these systems that was implemented to spice things up a bit (as was KERS). It's kind of working. Races are certainly more interesting to watch than they were last decade.
I like it.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
Now they're only for that, go figure !

I think they've gone through all the possible permutations during the last decade or so. This one, in my opinion, is not the worst.

Fuel + tyres made for races that were won in the pits.
Fuel + No tyre was also very strategic and gave an advantage to cars which managed to save their rubbers, mostly the teams with more money and a better chassis and aero. The rest basically ended up limping to the finish line on shreds, if at all...
No fuel + No tyre was just a nightmare for everyone. The tyres mostly didn't last enough, especially with cars heavy with fuel.
No fuel + tyre is ok. Less strategy and the cars' performance remains, even improves, towards the end of the race. Not to mention that quick refuelling of a racecar is dangerous business.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

I am slowly coming back around to being a fan of F1 and appreciate these knowlegable Grand Prix topics from you guys who really follow the season.

I haven't had time to read all threads and apologize if this has been mentioned before, but there is an soon-to-be-released Ron Howard movie named "Rush" that promises to be a truely terrific film about F1 racing. It essentially stories the history of the great Niki Lauda/Ferrari vs. James Hunt/McLaren battle during the 1976 season.

You can access the dramatic film trailers (there are several sites) by simply going to "Rush Movie Trailers" on your search. I'd also recommend going to Autoextremist(dot)com and reading Peter DeLorenzo's take on the movie. When getting to the Autoextremist site, click on "Fumes" at the top of the home page. I hope DeLorenzo is correct that this may be the only really great racing film post the first two (and only), the original "Grand Prix" and Steve McQueen's "LeMans".

Hope this isn't a redundant heads-up. If so, treat as a kind reminder. The trailers look fantastic, but then again, it IS a Ron Howard film. All best...jack



all best; jack
User currently onlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2606 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2240 times:
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Wow, that was an exciting race. I didn't think we coud have a good race on the Bahrain track, but the midfield battles throughout the race proved me wrong. I'm delighted with the result, of course - Vettel driving off into the sunset for a dominant victory, but the highlight was the battles between Button, Perez and Rosberg. Fantastic driving!

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 16):
I haven't had time to read all threads and apologize if this has been mentioned before, but there is an soon-to-be-released Ron Howard movie named "Rush"

I know about that film already. I would be interested in seeing it when it first comes out.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 17):
Wow, that was an exciting race. I didn't think we coud have a good race on the Bahrain track, but the midfield battles throughout the race proved me wrong. I'm delighted with the result, of course - Vettel driving off into the sunset for a dominant victory, but the highlight was the battles between Button, Perez and Rosberg. Fantastic driving!

Exactly my feelings! This was my first "live" race of the season since the start time was a reasonable 08:00LT here in East Coast US (versus 2:30 or so for the previous rounds) and it didn't disappoint. Of course, being a Vettel/Kimi/Alonso fan I am delighted to see 2 of the 3 make it to the top two spots, with the third driving a phenomenal race when you consider that Fernando had like 5 stops and no DRS advantage.

I still think that Ferrari and Lotus are the main threats to RBR, with Mercedes being that one team that can spoil things on occasion. McLaren...ok, improved this race (Perez was fantastic!) but not great when you consider that they were essentially fighting Force India in the previous 3 rounds. Sauber, Williams and Toro Rosso are taking naps, sadly.

Another thought: seeing how Vettel now leads the championship by 10 points, his decision to overtake Webber in Malaysia (and disobey team orders in the process) is looking smarter by the day!


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1338 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
Well now, a few years back, people complained that there was no overtaking at all in F1.

I certainly didn't   Overtaking should be challenging or it's worthless. You may as well watch NASCAR.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
These were the snoozeworthy years of Schumarcher's domination.

Which was nothing to do with DRS or lack thereof I don't think. The 2005, 06, 07, 08, 09 and 10 seasons were pretty good fun I seem to remember. Schumacher was dominant in his time because Ferrari were so far above the rest of the pack, had $300 million a year to spend, and Schumacher was so far above the rest of the drivers. Hardly surprising they were in front.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
The cars arrived pretty much the way they started...

Traction control, tires, team budgets, quali rules and quality of drivers. All made a difference. I don't think DRS has been a major factor.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
Races are certainly more interesting to watch than they were last decade.

Since you have no idea who is racing whom until about lap 40, I'd argue they're less interesting to watch.

I am exaggerating a bit but you get the point. I wouldn't necessarily get rid of DRS; I think it was a sensible thing to try given how much of the cars' performance comes from aero grip. I just think it is too easy to overtake and they should try and limit its effect a little.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6608 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

Almost a perfect podium, just knock Vettel out of it, move the Lotus drivers 1-2 and put Alonso on the third step and voilà !

I'm glad that Grosjean finally made a good race despite the odds, starting from 11th and with a strange strategy. Really with Lotus you're always wondering if they're genius or morons (Kimi was also wondering ). With Mercedes at least there's no doubt, their strategies never work.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 13):
And yet Vettel set the fastest lap time on the 4th last lap in Shanghai, using a fresh set of option tyres.

Yeah but he struggled to overtake, despite being the only one that fast. Here in Bahrain there was far less crap though, and it gave interesting battles where the drivers being overtaken could fight for their position.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
A tyre war will spark further advancements in design and manufacturing of these tyres.

But that's not what is wanted, what they want is cheaper tyres. To that effect this year they have a mundane steel frame instead of carbon fiber.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Almost a perfect podium, just knock Vettel out of it, move the Lotus drivers 1-2 and put Alonso on the third step and voilà !

Who needs Alonso?   The only driver Vettel has to watch is Kimi Raikkonen. Vettel has proven again that the team order was wrong and I hope they have apologized to him.

Red Bull should replace Webber sooner than later if they want to win the constructors championship this year, else they might lose out to Lotus.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineb738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2078 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Almost a perfect podium, just knock Vettel out of it, move the Lotus drivers 1-2 and put Alonso on the third step and voilà !

I agree with that   Interesting race... and overall on the current standings of the Championship would make it more interesting.  


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6608 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2046 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Vettel has proven again that the team order was wrong and I hope they have apologized to him.

Red Bull should replace Webber sooner than later if they want to win the constructors championship this year, else they might lose out to Lotus.

I think the exact opposite. If you want Webber to perform, you have to treat him well. For years we have seen a problem at RBR, it's always his car that has things going wrong. At the end of the day that "stolen victory" will not make a significant points difference for Vettel but it could lead to more trouble, either with a sinking Webber (and replacing him mid season will not work), or an enraged one that will take out Vettel at one point, making him lose far more than 5 points.

And I'm saying this while not liking Webber much, he's been pretty dangerous on the track at times, but treating him like that, well, he has lots more fans all of a sudden.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 8):
Overtaking is way too easy now

Well, I don't think anyone is complaining  . I had a lot of fun watching the race yesterday.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
There is no point. That's why they didn't exist for a long time, and when I started watching F1 back in 2005 they were only for fuel, no tyres change. Now they're only for that, go figure !

And probably in 10 years time we'll have this rule back again. Rules come and go and come back and go again. Nothing new with that  
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
Which was absurd and lead to the ridiculous race at Indy where all the Michelin runners pulled out.

Well, not quite. While it is true that teams were not allowed to change tyres in normal race conditions that year, they could do it if safety was at stake. Whiting proposed the teams to change tyres before and during the race (every 10 laps), but Michelin said it would still not solve the problem, because the bug was in the compound itself and all samples in the US and in Europe were affected.

The only viable solution was to install a temporary chicane before the banking, but the FIA refused because not all precautions would have been studied prior to installing it, hence the possibility of creating new danger.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
I started watching F1 back in 2005
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
I started watching F1 in 1994

And I started to watch F1 in 1985   

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
No fuel + tyre is ok

I like this rule too. It's a good compromise.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 16):
I haven't had time to read all threads and apologize if this has been mentioned before, but there is an soon-to-be-released Ron Howard movie named "Rush" that promises to be a truely terrific film about F1 racing. It essentially stories the history of the great Niki Lauda/Ferrari vs. James Hunt/McLaren battle during the 1976 season.

Yes, I can't wait to be in September!! The trailer is showing a promising movie.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 18):
McLaren...ok

McLaren has been missing the extra something to win the title over the last few years. But for 2013, I'm quite scared for them. I thought they couldn't do worse than the 2004 season, but apparently they can (and will?). Unless major improvements come for the first race in Europe and during the summer, they might end up behind Force India at the end of the season, which is, for a team like McLaren, a poor poor result.

Also I don't think the drivers are dominant enough to fight for the big points. Button is a good driver, but he's not aggressive enough (in the good sense of the term). He won in 2009 because his car was way above all the others, but he's not of the same kind as Alonso or Vettel.

And I still have my doubts about Perez. He showed some good spirit yesterday, but I need to see more.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 18):
his decision to overtake Webber in Malaysia (and disobey team orders in the process) is looking smarter by the day!

From the pure accounting point of view, it was the only smart thing to do. It's for the upcoming relationship with your teammate and your managers that this decision can be dangerous. But to have the best chances possible to win the WDC at the end of the season, he did what he was supposed to do.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Almost a perfect podium, just knock Vettel out of it, move the Lotus drivers 1-2 and put Alonso on the third step and voilà !

I would not mind, though I'd rather see my fellow countryman 1st and Kimi 2nd  
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
The only driver Vettel has to watch is Kimi Raikkonen

I would not scratch Alonso yet. He's been quite unlucky this season, with a retirement early in the Malaysian race and some DRS problems yesterday that probably cost him a podium. But he finished 2nd in Australia and 1st in China, which proves his car has the potential. With a bit more luck, he will be a serious rival.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Red Bull should replace Webber sooner than later if they want to win the constructors championship this year

They won't and you know they won't. Webber has been doing the job over the last 3 years. His start of the season this year is not the best, but RBR won't get rid of him in the middle of the season like that.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently onlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2606 posts, RR: 5
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2048 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
just knock Vettel out of it

 
Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
Yeah but he struggled to overtake, despite being the only one that fast.

That would be because he had no cars to overtake until he came up to Hamilton in the last two corners of the race.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
I think the exact opposite. If you want Webber to perform, you have to treat him well.

To compensate for his relative lack of ability? This isn't kindergarten, this is the cut throat world of F1. As the old saying goes, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
At the end of the day that "stolen victory" will not make a significant points difference for Vettel but it could lead to more trouble,

7 points between first and second is a "significant" points difference. The margin is now just 10 points, and he only won the title last year by 3 points. Every point counts.



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User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
At the end of the day that "stolen victory" will not make a significant points difference for Vettel but it could lead to more trouble, either with a sinking Webber

It was not a stolen victory. Vettel was faster and the better driver.

Had Vettel followed the team order the team would have stolen the victory from Vettel.

And, as CXB77L said, 7 points are significant.



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User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1338 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2001 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 24):
Well, I don't think anyone is complaining  . I had a lot of fun watching the race yesterday.

My view is not a total minority. I saw a poll on an F1 site where it was split down the middle. A lot of people are turned off by the artificiality of it. Where was all the best racing yesterday? Was it on the main straight where cars were breezing past each other? Or in the slower twisty bits where DRS wasn't available?

The racing was entertaining despite DRS rather than because of it.



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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6608 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1994 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 24):
Whiting proposed the teams to change tyres before and during the race (every 10 laps), but Michelin said it would still not solve the problem, because the bug was in the compound itself and all samples in the US and in Europe were affected.

And I doubt Michelin had enough tyres in stock to do that anyway. They would only be competing for the 7th and 8th place so several teams would probably not have bothered.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
To compensate for his relative lack of ability? This isn't kindergarten, this is the cut throat world of F1. As the old saying goes, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Well I'm not denying that Vettel is faster overall and was faster at that point. The thing is, Webber is also receiving team orders. You can be sure now that he'll never follow them again. And what is your answer to my point that Webber always gets the car with problems, the older components, etc. ?

Anyway, I would not be surprised to see Vettel win the WDC but another team clinch the constructor's title.



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User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 27):
A lot of people are turned off by the artificiality of it

I agree. It was the easy solution. But I'd rather have this than no solution at all.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
And I doubt Michelin had enough tyres in stock to do that anyway

On the spot, no, but they checked if they could get tyres from France, but even those were not good.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1947 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
It was not a stolen victory. Vettel was faster and the better driver.

Had Vettel followed the team order the team would have stolen the victory from Vettel.

And, as CXB77L said, 7 points are significant.

Complexly agree. Vettel walk away after the pass, not a case of the two being equal and the team not wanting two equal drivers battling it out.



Quoting CXB77L (Reply 25):
To compensate for his relative lack of ability?

On a good day he's almost a match for vettel but he's not consistent and that's why he finished 6th? and vettel got 1st


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3928 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1930 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
And what is your answer to my point that Webber always gets the car with problems, the older components, etc. ?


DNFs:

2012 - Vettel 2 (two alternator failures), Webber 3 (tyres damaged after he spun his car, collision, alternator failure)
2011 - Vettel 1 (puncture), Webber 1 (collision)
2010 - Vettel 3 (wheel failure, collision, engine failure), Webber 2 (two collisions)
2009 - Vettel 5 (collision, rain related spin, collision, suspension failure, engine failure), Webber 2 (two collisions)

So, over the last 4 seasons, Vettel has had 6 car related failures during the race to Webbers singular one, and 11 retirements to Webbers 8.

They've generally both come out even in KERS failures both in qualifying and during the race, and I can only remember that very high profile time when Vettel got Webbers nose after he broke his own as a time when he received updates that Webber did not.

Note that theres lots of things you can read into statistics, but I don't see Webber getting "the car with problems".


User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1902 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 24):
It's for the upcoming relationship with your teammate and your managers that this decision can be dangerous.

I'm sure that had Vettel been the second driver and Webber a younger teammate, then this would have been a consideration. But when you know that a) you enjoy number one driver status at the team (winning three titles helps it seems!) and b) your teammate is at the older end of the scale and likley in his last season, you can "risk" damaging that relationship with the other driver and the team slightly. In fact, I don't think the team will even remember the "disobedience" incident after getting the victory in Bahrain!

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
DNFs:

Interesting analysis...and I quite agree with yout conclusion in that it doesn't support the conspiracy theory of Webber "always" getting the bad bits for his car.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 30):
On a good day he's almost a match for vettel but he's not consistent and that's why he finished 6th? and vettel got 1st

This is why I found the team orders in Malaysia quite difficult to understand. Webber is a good driver and, when he's on target, he can deliver a race victory. However, he lacks the consistency of Vettel, that's why I would have imagined that the team (with 20 laps to go) would have allowed Vettel to attempt a pass since later on in the campaign he's the most likely to deliver the better results. Granted, the team gets money for their position in the constructor's title, not the driver's one, but the publicity of employing a four-time champion will surely attract a few sponsors.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1892 times:

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 32):
This is why I found the team orders in Malaysia quite difficult to understand

RB know webber is not going to let seb past without a good fight, just look at what has happened in the past, so maybe the better option was to avoid a fight ending with both out. The RB owner wants them to fight and i agree!!

Also, maybe the cars were low on fuel or ?? but seb cleared that up by winning by a margin.

Webber is known to be tough to overtake and he treats all comers the same...unless your going to do damage to seb's title hope then you get the open door.


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