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Two Bomb Blast In Boston USA Part 2  
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2781 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6845 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

The last thread had gotten quite long so part two is being created. The previous thread can be found here Two Bomb Blast In Boston USA (by OA260 Apr 15 2013 in Non Aviation) .
The previous thread was getting a little heated. Please remember to follow the Airliners.net forum rules. This is a very high tension situation but forum rules still apply.
Thanks,
Pat


You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
222 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6836 times:

Aerowesty,

I hate to tell this to y ou but what Slider is saying makes a lot of sense.

It hasn't been conclusively shown they did this for Islamic reasons but there is a heck of a lot of smoke.

Right now we have only begun to learn about these two



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6826 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
It hasn't been conclusively shown they did this for Islamic reasons but there is a heck of a lot of smoke.

If you've read my posts over the years, I've NO problem calling a spade a spade. Just give me some definite proof instead of supposition, that's all. But I'm not going to go off on assumptions just because some wacko website got me all lathered up.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6801 times:

Actually I have said wait for things to sort out a couple of times on the previous thread, so I agree with you there.

But based what we know, I would have to say that I am more Comfortable calling it probably Islamically related then I when I went to bed last night,

I haven't seen the fire but it is sure getting smokey in here.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6786 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
It hasn't been conclusively shown they did this for Islamic reasons

Then stop bringing Islam into it. What about Chechen independence? Couldn't they have committed this horrible act just simply for that?

Before anyone says anything, stop and think for a second:

A group in Russia wants religious freedom. They want to worship as they please. Contrast that with the United States where we allegedly have freedom of/from religion and, in theory, can worship as we please. I say that because of the uproar over a couple of Islamic centers and Mosques that have tried to be opened and loud mouth people who scream about "this is a Christian nation".

Shouldn't everyone be free to worship how they choose?

For someone to make that point by murder and violence is bad. Awful. I don't have enough negative words to describe it.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6769 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
Then stop bringing Islam into it. What about Chechen independence? Couldn't they have committed this horrible act just simply for that?

Before anyone says anything, stop and think for a second:

A group in Russia wants religious freedom. They want to worship as they please. Contrast that with the United States where we allegedly have freedom of/from religion and, in theory, can worship as we please. I say that because of the uproar over a couple of Islamic centers and Mosques that have tried to be opened and loud mouth people who scream about "this is a Christian nation".

Shouldn't everyone be free to worship how they choose?

For someone to make that point by murder and violence is bad. Awful. I don't have enough negative words to describe it.

Well, there is this:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/19/de...was-a-very-religious-muslim-boxer/


User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6758 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 4):
Then stop bringing Islam into it. What about Chechen independence?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know that the US somehow had laid a claim on Chechen territory. What does Chechen independence have to do with the US? Nothing. US-Russian relations have been strained because we have protested (correctly, IMHO) Russia's frequently harsh methods. We never cheered the Russians on. At the same time we have also not declared support for their independence. I.e. we are neutral on the issue of Chechnya.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6743 times:

Seb-I don't think the subjects of Chechen independence and Islam are seperatable. So no I don't think they would have done this act just for the former. I suspect that because of the civil war there they are alread ticked off Muslims and while the US played no role in chechnya(thank god!) I suspect their ideology supports is,amic extremists in other causes maki the US a legitimate target in their eyes......Enemy of, enemy kind of deal.

Maybe some of our Russian colleagues here can comment more fully on the motivations of chechyan terrorists.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7394 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6725 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
It hasn't been conclusively shown they did this for Islamic reasons but there is a heck of a lot of smoke.

We can not say what their motive was unless this other dude on the run is caught and basically squeezed for everything he knows....

It kinda reminds me though of the columbine combo's thing...a duo with messed up brains...

From the other thread, via pvjin:

Quote:
I can understand why they are angry though, Russians destroying their whole capital into ruins using heavy artillery and randomly just going around and raping & killing civilians is something that would surely make anybody angry.


Well why would they attack us? Last I checked the US wasn't so friendly to Russia at the moment either....



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5498 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6703 times:

I wonder how they obtained the guns they had on them. I wonder what the fallout will be if they were bought via "private gun sales"....

(Just throwing another aspect into this discussion that is proceeding without solid information anyway already and just going off possibilities and assumptions)

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6701 times:

Phx787- the Islamist in Chechnya and extremists in the middle east have always though they where fighting a common enemy, akathe west. Just like in Iraq and Afghanistan extremist fighters from other Islamic countries went there to join the fight.

The US never had a role in Chechnya but never condemned Russia for it, so I think it goes back to that old saying that goes, "The enemy of my enemy......"

But the perception is that the US is anti Islamic so if these two do prove out to be religious then I am going to suggest that religion played a lot bigger part in what they did then Cechian independence.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1247 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6692 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 8):
Well why would they attack us? Last I checked the US wasn't so friendly to Russia at the moment either....

Yeah like I said I don't think this has anything to do with actual Chechen conflict, other than that of course the chaos there might have caused some Muslims who would have otherwise been peaceful to become radicalized...

It's not uncommon for some radical Muslims from abroad to travel to places like Chechnya and Afghanistan to fight Islamic Jihad, thus I guess it's not impossible that these two men wanted to fight against the United States because of the situation in Afghanistan / Iraq and such, like as act of solidarity towards their fellow Jihadists like people in Al Qaeda and Taliban.

[Edited 2013-04-19 09:15:48]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6683 times:

And of course the comments that everything is a "gummint conspeersy", as DocLightning so nicely put it, already started. They claim everything to be a, quote, "false flag operation by private military contractors", unquote, and the police "punches holes into innocent people" to cover it up.

These statements are backed up by such trustworthy news sites like naturalnews.com, where, among others, such brilliant scientific knowledge like "HIV is made up by the pharma industry", "baking soda cures prostate cancer", and "vaccination causes brain disease" is published.

Trying to reason with the posters on the Austrian news outlet I found these comments on led to the conclusion that my "frontal lobe is unable to process realistic but disturbing information", which according to a "scientific survey holds true for 80% of all people" and is called - my favorite - "neurologically caused unrealistic optimism".

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE!

[Edited 2013-04-19 09:18:50]


WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6684 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
At the same time we have also not declared support for their independence. I.e. we are neutral on the issue of Chechnya.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
The US never had a role in Chechnya but never condemned Russia for it

If I recall correctly, Bush was actually highly critical of Putin's handling of the Chechen issue. I don't know if that amounts to "support", but he wasn't exactly neutral either. I don't think Obama has ever made any mention of it since he's taken office, which is fine because I think the US should keep their nose out of this one.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 9):
Bringing Islam into the equation reeks of an agenda.

I have to agree. Commentators on Toronto news stations made the unfortunately obvious point last night that the only reason this discussion has gone this direction is because there is a subset of Americans that WANT the perpetrators to be Muslim, and have committed these acts in the name of their beliefs.

At the end of the day, it's all just speculation at this point. We don't know why these guys did it (or even fully IF they did it, which is why I hope the other guy is caught and tried in a court of law). The only real outrage I'm feeling at any religion right now is at whatever the Westboro Baptist Church claim to be, since they are of course planning to picket the funerals.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 10):
I hate how in these situations the police always kill the suspects.

They caught the Unabomber and McVeigh alive.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5498 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6673 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 10):
It's unlikely, but I wish they could capture the last one alive so everyone could get some answers and closure. I hate how in these situations the police always kill the suspects.

Weirdly and of some concern to me, the press contacted their father over in Russia and while he apparently did not support what they did, he made an odd reference, perceived by some as a threat that if they were killed "all hell would break loose".

Quote:
The father of the suspects, reached in Makhachkala, Russia, by The Associated Press, characterized his younger son as an intelligent and accomplished young man.

"My son is a true angel," Anzor Tsarnaev said. "Dzhokhar is a second-year medical student in the U.S. He is such an intelligent boy. We expected him to come on holidays here."

Anzor Tsarnaev called on his son to surrender peacefully, but reportedly warned the United States that “all hell will break loose” if he’ll killed. He told ABC News that he spoke to his sons by phone earlier this week. He said his sons reassured him, saying, "Everything is good, Daddy. Everything is very good."

"Give up. Give up. You have a bright future ahead of you,” Anzor Tsarneav said, according to ABC News. “Come home to Russia.”

He continued: "If they killed him, then all hell would break loose."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/19...ails-from-overseas-been-in-us-for/

Weird.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6618 times:

CNN reported that based on their online activity, extremist beliefs are certainly in play.

The interview with his Uncle who has not seen the kids since December 2005 was interesting. The uncle is ashamed of them, and pleaded for the one still on the run to turn him self in. His uncle was intense, but seems like a good man.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 10):
It's unlikely, but I wish they could capture the last one alive so everyone could get some answers and closure. I hate how in these situations the police always kill the suspects.

Well so many times it is not the police but the person taking their own life once they know the police are coming. The police don't want to shoot the guy but they might have no choice. If he has a weapon and looks like he will use it those officers need to protect themselves. Nothing we can do. These people are nuts.

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
I wonder how they obtained the guns they had on them. I wonder what the fallout will be if they were bought via "private gun sales"....

Given that they are both U.S. citizens, as of now there are no criminal records on these two guys they could have purchased a gun anyway with all the FBI checks in the world. So what you said makes ZERO sense. Nice try to get the gun debate in though. Well only the older brother could purchase a handgun.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6605 times:

Whoa, too close for comfort:

Boston eyewitness: 'Bullet came through my wall'



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6087 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6602 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
Given that they are both U.S. citizens, as of now there are no criminal records on these two guys they could have purchased a gun anyway with all the FBI checks in the world. So what you said makes ZERO sense. Nice try to get the gun debate in though. Well only the older brother could purchase a handgun.

From what I heard on ABC news is that they were throwing hand grenades at police during the chase. If that is true they would not have been able to buy them legally. They would have had to buy them through some sort of illegal arms dealer and that person many very well have sold and illegally imported the guns along with the grenades.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6600 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
I hate to tell this to y ou but what Slider is saying makes a lot of sense.

Not sure what you are talking about.

The only remaining post is:

Quoting slider (Reply 226):

Connect the dots gang...

It was the Saudis....

http://www.examiner.com/article/bost....likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

So the kid, with known and clear ties to powerful Saudi family and terror connections, is getting deported after a private meeting between Obama and the Saudi Foreign Minister?

Come on, we're not stupid. This ought to be front page news EVERYWHERE.

And clearly that post was conspiracy theory nonsense.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6500 times:

I'm surprised it's taking so long to find this guy, it's been several hours now since the younger brother took off from the gunfight, and they know where he dropped the car. Perhaps he's hiding out in a vacant house or something?


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5498 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6489 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
I'm surprised it's taking so long to find this guy, it's been several hours now since the younger brother took off from the gunfight, and they know where he dropped the car. Perhaps he's hiding out in a vacant house or something?

It is often hardest to find someone that doesn't move. If he is just hiding then it may be awhile, but the reality is you can't hide forever. At some point he will have to move, sleep, eat, get out, whatever.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

I'm also wondering if he was so far ahead of the cops that he was able to find another car to carjack, and could be long gone. Just as I was thinking that, CNN broadcast the details for another car the police are looking for, a green Civic.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6446 times:

#WANTED: Police seeking MA Plate: 116-GC7, ’99 Honda Sedan, Color - Green. Possible suspect car. Do not approach. http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIO733TCUAEtyjQ.jpg

So he might be on the move...

Now editting a correction:

MASS STATE POLICE @MassStatePolice
Media reporting we are looking for a Honda Civic reg 116GC7, please note that we have that car. We are NOT looking for it. BOLO recalled

So it's not clear why they wanted that car, but they have it.

[Edited 2013-04-19 11:39:03]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6477 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 24):
I'm also wondering if he was so far ahead of the cops that he was able to find another car to carjack, and could be long gone.

We know he fled on foot from the shootout where his brother was killed.

In the police radio recordings here we here the police supervisors telling the cops to pull back.

I imagine this is when the brother got away.

A timeline of events is here.

Seems the critical part is:

Quote:

Shortly before 10:20 p.m. -A 7-11 in Cambridge is robbed by the men believed to be the Boston Marathon bombing suspects.

10:20 p.m. - An MIT police officer was shot and killed in an ambush. It was originally reported that the officer had been responding to a report of disturbance in the area of Vassar and Main streets in Cambridge. However, law enforcement officials later said he was sitting in his car with his gun in his holster when he was “ambushed” by the two suspects.

Approximately 11:30 p.m. - An armed carjacking took place in the area of Third Street in Cambridge. The victim was held in the Mercedes SUV for approximately a half hour.

Friday, approximately 12 a.m. - The carjacking victim was released at a gas station on Memorial Drive in Cambridge. He was not injured. Police immediately began searching for the vehicle involved.

1 a.m. - Officers from several agencies were involved in a pursuit into Watertown. Gunshots and explosions were heard in the area of Dexter and Laurel streets in Watertown. Explosive devices were reportedly thrown from car by the suspects. The suspects and police also exchanged gunfire in the area of Dexter and Laurel streets. An MBTA police officer was shot and seriously injured during the pursuit. One of two Boston Marathon bombing suspects was injured and captured.

1 a.m. - Police agencies descended on Watertown. A manhunt was underway for the second suspect, who managed to escape on foot. A 20-block area was surrounded by police.

1:35 a.m. - The injured Boston Marathon Bombing suspect died at the hospital.

So the second brother who is being called 'white hat' by the cops and press has been on the lam since 1 am.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6504 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
We know he fled on foot from the shootout where his brother was killed.

Odd, the news has been saying all morning that he drove over his brother fleeing from the shootout.

(BTW, the death photo of Tamerlan Tsarnaev has been making the rounds. It's fairly gruesome, but apparently real.)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6469 times:

Lignet is reporting;

that two young brothers from the Russian province of Chechnya who have lived in the United States for several years were behind the April 16 bombings makes it likely that they were at least so-called “homegrown terrorists,” possibly radicalized by al-Qaeda propaganda on the Internet. There also is a strong possibility that the two were somehow recruited and trained by al-Qaeda operatives to stage the Boston attack.



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6456 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 27):
Odd, the news has been saying all morning that he drove over his brother fleeing from the shootout.

A radio report I'm now hearing says the police chased the carjacked SUV with the two in it. They say the brothers stopped at an intersection, emerged and engaged in gunfire. They say the older brother had a bomb and advanced on police. That's when the other brother was fatally wounded. The younger brother got back into the car and in his haste to get away he backed up over the wounded brother then drove away. He was chased another six blocks or so and fled on foot. The police tried to establish a perimeter but the suspect eluded them.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6458 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
The younger brother got back into the car and in his haste to get away he backed up over the wounded brother then drove away. He was chased another six blocks or so and fled on foot.

Thanks for this, that makes sense. So he could still be hiding outdoors, or could have broken into a home, or carjacked another car.

CNN just reported that they're 70% of the way through their house-to-house search of Watertown.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6429 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 30):
So he could still be hiding outdoors, or could have broken into a home, or carjacked another car.

A recent tweet:

Quote:

Police are still conducting an intense, door-to-door search in Watertown for Dzhokhor Tsarnaev, 19, a suspect in the Marathon bombings.
by Teresa Hanafin, Boston.com 3:29 PM

Seems the police are telling reporters that it's pretty likely the suspect is still in the area where he abandoned the vehicle, but they don't want to say much other than telling residents to stay inside with the doors locked.

Also:

Quote:

TwitterWesley Lowery @WesleyLowery
10 hours later, colleagues following up w/those inside of Watertown parimeter. Some still laying on floor of their houses with lights off

So it's very much an active pursuit.

And:

Quote:

CBS News is reporting that a package thrown at police in Cambridge earlier was a pressure cooker bomb, and that police found pipe bombs in the Norfolk Street, Cambridge home they are searching.

All reports from the live blog at http://live.boston.com/Event/Live_blog_Explosion_in_Copley_Square



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6429 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
The younger brother got back into the car and in his haste to get away he backed up over the wounded brother then drove away. He was chased another six blocks or so and fled on foot. The police tried to establish a perimeter but the suspect eluded them.

I caught a You-tube video of the gun fire exchange with police at least 50 to 60 rounds. I would say it would be quite a stretch with the number of rounds I heard fired that "white hat" would not be wounded.
Most likely he has crawled under a house or in an out building or culvert and has scummed to his wounds. It would be hard to imagine that the police firing that many shots would miss their target.

Okie


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

Okie, never underestimate a cops ability to miss a target.

Just look at all the rounds that where fired into that pickup with the two women in it.

But rest assure the cops are hunting, they have no interest in catching this kid alive.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6363 times:

Photo of "White Hat", the surviving suspect, fleeing the blast:



Ref: http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/metro...rce=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

What is believed to be his Twitter account:

https://twitter.com/J_tsar



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6207 times:

I´ll bet that the second guy topped himself already and is lying dead in someone´s garden shed.
Btw., I had a word a few days ago with a colleague, who comes from Aserbeijan. He is Muslim himself, of the moderate sort, and really hates the Wahabis and Salafists, who in his opinion give Islam a bad name. He explained a bit about the Chechnia conflict to me, in a way you won´t hear about in the news.
According to him the conflicts in the Northern Caucasus are based on tribal and clan differences, and got partially hijacked by rich Salafist and Wahabi groups from Saudi Arabia. He said that those groups primarely target young men, who even though they have an education, don´t see any future for themselves in the current regional economic climate. These men get offered large amounts of money for their families, but the groups want something in return. They also brainwash those young men to become fanatic jihadists willing to sacrifice their lives and kill whomever they see as an enemy (and this includes moderate Muslims too). He is a strong supporter of Russia´s methods to deal with the radicals.

Jan

[Edited 2013-04-19 14:38:40]

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5498 posts, RR: 8
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6190 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 42):
mainstream liberal media

A fantasy made up by Conservatives who are disillusioned with reality not matching their beliefs,

But Doc, you don't understand:

It's vast and the masses just don't understand how bad it really is!
  

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6176 times:

Excellent contribution Md11engineer!

Your friends observations certainly jives with some of others stories i have heard.

But returning to the media rumor mill there are reports that the older brother went to Russia for a few months a year ago. We don't know his travels but there is speculation he may have gone ti the conflict area and received training on how to do this.

Also there are starting to be media stories that one of them had YouTube videos from an Australian Imam who advocates recruiting children for jihad.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6101 times:

It Costs $333 Million to Shut Down Boston for a Day

MA Gov: T is re-opened, and stay indoors order is lifted



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6056 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 49):
stay indoors order is lifted

Pretty amazing white hat was able to get away. Anybody know if there were air assets involved in the hunt last night? The police clearly believe he is no longer in Watertown. They kept saying during the press conference that they believe he is still in Massachusetts. Wow...

[Edited 2013-04-19 15:28:35]


Cha brro
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 50):

Pretty amazing white hat was able to get away

I have to agree, the gunfight with police appeared to happen outside of the getaway vehicle before white hat drove away.
If that is the case they would have evidence whether or not white hat had any leaks before he abandon the car.

Okie


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6009 times:

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 50):
Pretty amazing white hat was able to get away.

Sad but true. The thing I heard at the presser was that the cops at the scene were dealing with first aid so they didn't get after the suspect immediately. I'm confident the suspect will be caught, it's just a matter of time. It's clear the dude didn't have fleeing on his mind, he went to school Tuesday! He had a good three day lead before his picture came out and he chose not to take it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6010 times:

Breaking: Multiple gunshots supposedly heard in Watertown. Cops on the move....


Cha brro
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5998 times:

Lots of cops on the move, including from downtown Boston, plus SWAT and at least one ambulance. This may be something major.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5995 times:

CNN: Watertown residents asked to remain indoors again.

Suspect believed to be cornered, and the suspect can be seen. Police firing gas into the 'confined area' where they believe the suspect is.

[Edited 2013-04-19 16:11:52]


International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5963 times:

Suspect allegedly cornered, hiding in a boat in a back yard on Franklin St, East part of Watertown, MA, still thought to be alive.

It is being said that a thermal imager was used to locate the suspicious boat, then cops saw blood on it, and shots have been fired...

I thought that might aid the search.

[Edited 2013-04-19 16:37:43]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5943 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
Suspect allegedly cornered, hiding in a boat in a back yard in Watertown, MA, still alive...


A boat makes a lot of sense. They are saying it is a structure that he could easily get into. A boat makes perfect sense. They don't want to get to close to him due to explosive concerns. Nothing confirmed but it seems like this is it. Hopefully he comes out alive and does not do anything stupid.

Also CNN reports his father is coming to the U.S. to get "justice" for his sons. CNN also reported another country government asked the FBI to interview the older brother about possible extremist connections. That will be a big thing later on once this man hunt is over.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5908 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 59):
A boat makes perfect sense.

All kinds of stories flying around. They are saying the suspect was hiding under the boat cover, and a helicopter with a thermal imager was able to locate him. It is also being said that this allowed them to get officers on the scene without alerting the suspect.

Another source is saying it was a good old fashioned tip-off from a phone caller. That seems to be more consistent with the reports of bullets flying. If they knew they had them isolated they would have probably have staged the attempted contact with the suspect with a bit more care.

Time will tell....

Now, more gunfire...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19500 posts, RR: 58
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5916 times:

I just keep thinking about what a friggin' waste it all is.

Here were two handsome, intelligent young men. They had to have been pretty smart to have planned and executed this, and then to keep the Boston PD (and friends) busy for so long.

And then they both got caught up in religious extremism and here's the result. One dead and the other's life ruined assuming he survives (not that I have sympathy for him, please don't read that). And with it, a bunch of innocent dead and permanently disabled.

So unnecessary. SO unnecessary.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5899 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):
they both got caught up in religious extremism

We don't know that as an absolute fact yet.



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User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5870 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 9):
Bringing Islam into the equation reeks of an agenda.

So, we can call Timothy McVey an Christian terrorist and we can call James Holmes a Christian terrorist. We don't yet know the agenda of the Boston Marathon bombers, but some people are quick to point out they believe in some twisted version of a religion, so they must have done it because of religion.

Funny how that never ever happens with Christians. They just shoot people.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
the perception is that the US is anti Islamic so if these two do prove out to be religious then I am going to suggest that religion played a lot bigger part in what they did then Cechian independence.

But, that makes no sense. Especially in a city like Boston. If they had those feelings in, say, Sioux Falls, I could understand a hatred. But in a city?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5786 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 68):
He's an American citizen on US soil and Mr. Graham wants to throw out the Constitution. Apparrently, Mr. Graham believes that he has the divine right to decide who should and shouldn't get Constitutional rights within the USA.

The precedent exists for the suspect to be 'denaturalized' for having committed fraud during his naturalization process. That would strip him of U.S. citizenship and eligible for being handled as an enemy combatant.



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User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5786 times:

Police scanner saying suspect in custody


The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5781 times:

Suspect in custody, alive.


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User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5769 times:

Can't believe he went alive


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5776 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 68):
remote-control explosive

It hasn't been confirmed that the devices were remote controlled.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 71):
Just in according to NBC: They've taken him alive. He's in rough shape though. An ambulance is being called to the scene.

  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19500 posts, RR: 58
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5783 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 70):

The precedent exists for the suspect to be 'denaturalized' for having committed fraud during his naturalization process. That would strip him of U.S. citizenship and eligible for being handled as an enemy combatant.

If he committed fraud during his naturalization process.

However, the Obama administration has said that they will not do this. He can get a fair trial. He will be found guilty. He will get the death penalty. And hopefully we will learn if he had AQ connections.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5768 times:

I am shocked by the amateurish reaction of the "security forces". Seems that half of U Arny cannot catch a single kid. They thought that typical over application of violence an guns would solve the problem??? They only escalated it.

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5747 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 78):
He will get the death penalty.

Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

Quoting Danny (Reply 79):
I am shocked by the amateurish reaction of the "security forces". Seems that half of U Arny cannot catch a single kid. They thought that typical over application of violence an guns would solve the problem??? They only escalated it.

...and what do you recommend they should have done?  



Flying refined.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5748 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 78):
If he committed fraud during his naturalization process.

His recent actions were fraudulent against his Oath of U.S. Citizenship.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8227 posts, RR: 23
Reply 57, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5734 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 79):
I am shocked by the amateurish reaction of the "security forces". Seems that half of U Arny cannot catch a single kid. They thought that typical over application of violence an guns would solve the problem??? They only escalated it.

What are you on about? They went from zero information to 1 dead and 1 in custody in barely 4 days with zero collateral damage. What would you have done, sent the cub scouts out on a scavenger hunt?



This Website Censors Me
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5719 times:

I think he will get charged Federally

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 80):
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19500 posts, RR: 58
Reply 59, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5717 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 80):
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

He has committed more than a state crime.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 82):
His recent actions were fraudulent against his Oath of U.S. Citizenship.

So any naturalized citizen who commits a crime should first lose their citizenship and then be treated as an enemy combatant?

I don't like that model at all. And I don't think you're right.


User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5704 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 80):

Mass law doesn't apply. He committed a Federal crime.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 61, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days ago) and read 5680 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 85):
So any naturalized citizen who commits a crime should first lose their citizenship and then be treated as an enemy combatant?

Don't be silly, not any crime.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7949 posts, RR: 12
Reply 62, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5621 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):

Hm, yes, same with 9/11 actually - save for the parts about Boston and the terrorists being handsome. Then again, I don't consider the Tsarnaevs handsome as well.

Quoting Danny (Reply 79):
I am shocked by the amateurish reaction of the "security forces". Seems that half of U Arny cannot catch a single kid.

What amateurish reaction? They found the suspects within few days. Just because one of the two managed to escape for nearly one day doesn't mean LE had done anything amateurish at all.

I am more surprised to see an Army helicopter hoovering over one house. I didn't know the Army can support law enforcement in the U.S.

[Edited 2013-04-19 18:21:57]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 63, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5619 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 82):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 78):
If he committed fraud during his naturalization process.

His recent actions were fraudulent against his Oath of U.S. Citizenship.

As from the link above - he can lose his citizenship for making fraudulent statements under oath which have a material impact upon his citizenship request.

Nothing says his citizenship can be revoked for 'fraudulent against his Oath of U.S. Citizenship".

There are crimes which can lead to loss of citizenship.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 89):
Don't be silly, not any crime.

Any crimes need to be defined before they occur, and the penalty needs to be defined. Deciding that revocation of citizenship is a suitable penalty after the crime occurs goes against everything the United States stand for.

Personally, I would like to see revocation of citizenship, and suspension of civil rights, as a punishment available. Though I would use it against repeat career criminals.

----------------

As far as this bozo - if he is guilty - I would not want his US citizenship revoked. I want to keep him in our custody and not give another nation a right to claim him as subject to their laws over ours.

Keep our jurisdiction clear and uncomplicated.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8227 posts, RR: 23
Reply 64, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5617 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 91):
When one person or even a group of people without any oversight or checks and balances start deciding who on US soil is covered by the Constitution and who isn't

Obama ordered the killing of a US citizen with a hellfire missile… Oh! Foreign soil. Check.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 91):
Because you should be the god-emperor authority on it. That's what you're saying. And that's what Senator Graham is saying.

Yes, that's exactly what he and the Senator are saying. Literally.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8227 posts, RR: 23
Reply 65, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5610 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 94):
I didn't know the Army can support law enforcement in the U.S.

It was likely the national guard, and they fall under the direction of the Governor of Massachusetts. If he wants to include them, he can.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 66, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5601 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 95):
Any crimes need to be defined before they occur, and the penalty needs to be defined.

All the government would have to do is establish that citizenship was fraudulently obtained, such as is used to revoke citizenship for what turn out to be sham weddings arranged just for citizenship, and voila, done.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8227 posts, RR: 23
Reply 67, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 99):
All the government would have to do is establish that citizenship was fraudulently obtained, such as is used to revoke citizenship for what turn out to be sham weddings arranged just for citizenship, and voila, done.

But what's the point? If he's a citizen, we can try him as such. If he's not, what then, we send him back to Russia? How about we just try him for, among many other things, murder, execute him ASAP and be done with it.

I would have slept much more soundly if he was dead. I dread the media circus, I don't want to see his picture all over the news for the next 12 months, and frankly I don't think he deserves to take another breath. That said, since he IS alive, we have a system in place, let's use it.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 68, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5576 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 100):
But what's the point? If he's a citizen, we can try him as such.

I never said that trying him as an enemy combatant is the preferred route. If you read my post, I was simply agreeing with Sen. Graham's point that he could be, if the suspect's citizenship was revoked.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 70):
The precedent exists for the suspect to be 'denaturalized' for having committed fraud during his naturalization process. That would strip him of U.S. citizenship and eligible for being handled as an enemy combatant.

Anyone believing that I endorsed it, was simply leaping to conclusions.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 69, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5558 times:

Liz Cheney chimes in with her words of healing and comfort:

https://twitter.com/Liz_Cheney/status/325411497104789504



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 70, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5529 times:

Really, folks, as much as I want to see the SOB suffer, I'm really wondering why there is all this emphasis on taking away the SOB's citizenship. To me it's petty, small minded and nothing but a distraction.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 71, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5512 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 103):
I'm really wondering why there is all this emphasis on taking away the SOB's citizenship.

Why does it bother you? Someone wanted to use a senator's remarks for a partisan political opportunity, and it was simply shown to him that the precedent existed for what the senator wanted. Threads on a.net sometimes go through that cycle for a dozen or so posts when people feel the need to grandstand. Nature of the beast.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 106):

This is exactly right.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 73, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5486 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 106):
Why does it bother you?

Asked and answered, please re-read my post.

Now, back to the events themselves:

Quote:

Watertown PD: He did not go straight to the boat. We found blood inside the car we found and behind a house just outside of the perimeter

We also read that he indeed was located by a thermal imager in a State Police helicopter, and that he didn't have any explosive devices with him in the boat.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 74, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5473 times:

The surviving suspect is only in custody of police and most likely to be brought immediately to a Federal detention facility at the US Federal Courthouse in Boston.

His status of 'Custody' and especially with the recent US Supreme Court rulings, means he can be questioned, by specialized interrogators who will seek any possible information from him as to why he did it, if part of a larger plan of violence, who they dealt with.

At a critical point, he will be read his Miranda rights and see an attorney. He will then be formally arraigned on Federal charges, mainly terrorism, murder of a police officer, as soon as tomorrow afternoon or as late as Monday morning. It is critical he is Federally charged, tried and if convicted, he could face the death penalty (think Timothy McVeigh). Mass. state charges would not allow the death penalty. It is also possible he could give evidence and plea down to a life without parole charge, and sent to 'Supermax' prison for the remains of his life.

This capture may end the Boston-wide siege, but it may spawn more terrorists who saw and crave the massive attention this event got for their perverse needs.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 75, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5476 times:

Dzhokar Tsarnaev being searched for bombs immediately after capture:

https://twitter.com/Hossenator/status/325419984954208257/photo/1



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User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 76, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 109):
most likely to be brought immediately to a Federal detention facility at the US Federal Courthouse in Boston

Actually the suspect/SOB is now at Brigham and Women's Hospital.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 77, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5452 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 111):
Brigham and Women's Hospital.

He's at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 109):
This capture may end the Boston-wide siege, but it may spawn more terrorists who saw and crave the massive attention this event got for their perverse needs.

The media attention sure seems to play a role in copy cat activities.

We just had the yearly memorial service today for the OKC bombings.
I can not count the number of incidents since they have rebuilt the federal building here where nut cases have left unmarked packages, bags etc in front of the building, one screwball after serving his time for the first offence within 2 days of being released planted another.

Okie


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19500 posts, RR: 58
Reply 79, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 106):
Someone wanted to use a senator's remarks for a partisan political opportunity, and it was simply shown to him that the precedent existed for what the senator wanted.

No it does not. That was never shown, and yes I read every link.

I defy you to quote to me where it is shown that crimes committed after citizenship is granted constitute grounds for revocation. I read the entire document and found not one mention of that. In fact, the document specifically raises only cases in which the defendant would have failed to reveal a material piece of information about his HISTORY, not his future.

I defy you to quote to me where in the Constitution it states that citizens and non-citizens have different rights in criminal cases under US jurisdiction. I have read the entire Constitution MANY times and I have never seen that passage, nor has any of my numerous lawyer friends ever mentioned it in discussions on the topic.

You cannot because such passages do not exist. You are making it up. Stop making things up and deal with facts.

Senator Graham proposed something that completely flouts the Constitution. That is a fact and not an opinion.

Perhaps we should arrest him and detain him without a trial because he proposed flouting the Constitution. By his own reasoning, that would make perfect sense. After all, if he can define what sort of crime should invalidate the Bill of Rights, then surely I can, too.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 80, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5425 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 115):
I defy you to quote to me where it is shown that crimes committed after citizenship is granted constitute grounds for revocation.

It's not necessary. If it can be established that the suspect was planning the bombing, or had intended to violate his oath in other ways prior to invoking it, that's all that's necessary for denaturalization. That example has already been given to you once before in the case of sham marriages, if you'd cared to read the posts.

You seem extremely hyper over this issue. Perhaps take a deep breath, have a martini or something, and re-read the relevant posts in a more relaxed mood rather than going off and making demands.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 81, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5389 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 78):
He will be found guilty. He will get the death penalty.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 80):
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 84):
I think he will get charged Federally
Quoting tugger (Reply 87):
This has a federal aspect to it and if I am correct they do have a death penalty available.

Well there was just an interesting debate on this issue with a couple of lawyers on CNN. There is apparently no clear-cut precedent on whether the govt. may seek the death penalty in a federal case in a state which does not have the death penalty as form of punishment. The last time the death penalty was sought in a case such as this was against Timothy McVeigh, where the death penalty was granted as it is a legal form of punishment in Oklahoma.



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User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 82, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5342 times:

We’ll shut down the city and find you dead or alive…..Gotta love it!

Well done to the City of Boston for doing what had to be done to catch these two turkeys (well, they stuffed one turkey, but we only need one to get answers)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this whole affair looks like pretty much a local affair, federal involvement was relatively ineffective (not their fault - simply that it was a local crime without all the international string-pullers of an attack such as 9/11). Local authorities chose to go public with the photos of the suspects and acted on the tips that came in. FBI assets might have helped go through the thousands of photos and pictures that were turned in, but that's pretty much it.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1193 posts, RR: 18
Reply 83, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 100):
But what's the point? If he's a citizen, we can try him as such. If he's not, what then, we send him back to Russia?

We don't want this trash. Lock him up and throw away the key for all Russia cares. Even if he didn't kill anyone, I have no respect for someone who claims asylum from my country.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2578 posts, RR: 7
Reply 84, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

I guess they were Caucasian after all.

User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 85, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Quoting johnboy (Reply 121):
I guess they were Caucasian after all.

Caucasian and not an "ultra right-wing nutjob making a statement about tax day". Funny how both sides of the aisle proved themselves to be the nutjobs in this case, yet again.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 86, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5318 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 115):
Jeez, it must burn some people up that the bomber wasn't a Christian Tea Party member like they hoped. Chris Matthews must be in tears.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 115):
I don't think there was ever an anticipation that they weren't Caucasian. Arabs and Iranians are considered Caucasian as well.

Hold on. People call "racial profiling" when people do things to Arabs because of skin color. If they are Caucasian, then it isn't racial profiling.... because they are the same f*king race. I actually completely agree with you, but people like playing the race card so much that we seem to be playing it on ourselves (referring to Caucasians playing it on Caucasians; "we" because I am Caucasian), too, so I've just 'gone with it'.


A few gems from thread 1:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Here's what might support the right wing terrorist theory, all of which is admittedly circumstantial:
-Today is tax day.
-It's also Patriots' day which is a celebration of the Battles of Lexington and Concord, not to mention that Boston was a very important location in the American Revolution. If you're trying to make a point about unfair taxation, government interference, restriction of freedom, etc. this would be the time and the place to do it.
-A third attack is being reported at the JFK library. JFK was of course a Democratic president who supported welfare type programs.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 242):
Don't forget: we will not see apologies from those in the right-wing media who tried so hard for this to be an Islamic al-Qaida "convert or die" stereotype. They should be fired too.

Nor will we see apologies from those in the left-wing media. Admit it.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 87, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5307 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 80):
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

The Feds do.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 85):
So any naturalized citizen who commits a crime should first lose their citizenship and then be treated as an enemy combatant?

Even a treason conviction would be a tough sell here, unless he confesses, but even then without connections to a larger group I think it would be something of a waste of time.

The idea of being able to strip immigrants of citizenship to charge them more harshly is a line that should not be crossed.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 95):
There are crimes which can lead to loss of citizenship.

That's fine, but I find it problematic that it would be done specifically in order to treat him under a different legal framework.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 97):
Obama ordered the killing of a US citizen with a hellfire missile%u2026 Oh! Foreign soil. Check.

Being on foreign soil makes it slightly different, but if you pose a threat it's not unreasonable for the government to take steps to eliminate the threat. Were apprehending him in a boat an option, that's what would have been done.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 115):
A few gems from thread 1:

I said it was all circumstantial. And for that matter, had it actually been a right winger, that could have set conservative politics back a decade so politically this is better as far as I am concerned.

And you should also note that I specifically opined that this was probably not the work of Al Qaeda.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5300 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 116):
Were apprehending him in a boat an option, that's what would have been done.

Funny, this guy was apprehended in a boat. Just... a boat that was out of place.  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 116):
I said it was all circumstantial. And for that matter, had it actually been a right winger, that could have set conservative politics back a decade so politically this is better as far as I am concerned.

And you should also note that I specifically opined that this was probably not the work of Al Qaeda.

I think the take-away is that in events like this, it's best to hold the baiting and wait for what we know. I haven't said two things in regards to Al-Qaeda or not, motives, or anything else. Why? Because we don't know.

We only divide ourselves more if we try to jump to conclusions. Many people on this forum love to 'prove' how messed up the other side is. That's not healthy. I would hope that we, collectively, could wait on that.

I can dream, right? And no, I'm not the shining star example in this area, either. I admit that.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 89, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5288 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 115):
Funny, this guy was apprehended in a boat. Just... a boat that was out of place.

I was just saying that drone strike was a choice of necessity in that case.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 115):
I think the take-away is that in events like this, it's best to hold the baiting and wait for what we know.

No, that's not the takeaway at all. Take the best information available at the given time and try to analyze it in a logical manner and then revise it if necessary. Simply not saying anything until it's all cut and dry is a waste of time. It's much more interesting to take what's known and try to figure out what it all means.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 90, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5282 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 111):
Nor will we see apologies from those in the left-wing media.

I see: make the left apologize first and maybe, just maybe, the right might think about apologizing.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114):
Simply not saying anything until it's all cut and dry is a waste of time. It's much more interesting to take what's known and try to figure out what it all means.

But, that just makes people act irrationally. There is a bombing and the right-wing media starts crying "Islam" and "al-Qaida" wherever in the United States it took place. There are still rumblings about the fertilizer plant being an Islamic plot. What I would like to see is the media keep their opinions to themselves and just report the facts. But, that does not sell.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 91, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5272 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 107):
I see: make the left apologize first and maybe, just maybe, the right might think about apologizing.

Says who? Quote me where I said "make the left apologize first". Oh yeah, you can't. Woops. Seb, I know people of ALL political ideologies made wide, sweeping, inappropriate statements. The right did. The left did. I even said the right did first there. What else do you want?

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 96):
Funny how both sides of the aisle proved themselves to be the nutjobs in this case, yet again.

See, I said BOTH SIDES of the aisle.


Incredible.  



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 92, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5264 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 89):
No, that's not the takeaway at all. Take the best information available at the given time and try to analyze it in a logical manner and then revise it if necessary. Simply not saying anything until it's all cut and dry is a waste of time. It's much more interesting to take what's known and try to figure out what it all means.

Just so you know what you are advocating, here's some light reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell

I wouldn't wish that shit on anybody.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 93, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5242 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 92):
Just so you know what you are advocating, here's some light reading:

I don't just want to know what's going on, I want some meaningful analysis, even if it's just opinions and speculation, on what it actually means and how the pieces fit. Choose the analysis you want to put any stock in. I find Nancy Grace horrendous, so I don't watch or listen to her. As long as there is some delineation between what is happening and what the opinions are of what the bigger picture is, I have no problems with it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3978 posts, RR: 28
Reply 94, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 24):
It's fairly gruesome

Not nearly gruesome enough.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):

But, that makes no sense. Especially in a city like Boston. If they had those feelings in, say, Sioux Falls, I could understand a hatred. But in a city?

What the hell does that mean?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 86):
He's at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center.

Hope they put him in the same hospital room as his brother's rotting corpse so he can take a good hard look at his mangled carcass while doctors poke extremely sharp medical devices into him in the course of unfortunately being forced to uphold their Hippocratic oath.

Quoting johnboy (Reply 95):
I guess they were Caucasian after all.

Yep. Not nearly Caucasian enough for many a left-wing commentator, though. MSNBC "journalists" are probably working overtime furiously trying to spin this.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 102):
There is a bombing and the right-wing media starts crying "Islam" and "al-Qaida" wherever in the United States it took place.

And 95+% of the time they would be right. The other (very small) percentage of occasions is probably a toss-up between a left-wing extremist (or group of extremists, like that one in Chicago) or some wacko nutjob. But of course, we understand how limited the left's understanding of statistics is (for them it is just a tool to prove "disparate impact").



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3608 posts, RR: 2
Reply 95, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5234 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 92):

Wow that's just unbelievable. Thanks for sharing that. Really makes you think...

Anyways, my Boston Strong shirt is in the mail. After this week, I really miss my old home of 30 years. Born and raised a Massh**e.

Great job to all the authorities and even civilians involved in the apprehension.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 96, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5200 times:
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Quoting casinterest (Reply 51):
Can't believe he went alive

It's not a surprise really. If they were the extremist Muslims that many hope they are, they would have blown themselves up at the marathon.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 55):
...and what do you recommend they should have done?

Maybe searched this house the first time round? The police admitted it hadn't been searched.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5147 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 96):

That's not necessarily true. With scarce resources, setting bombs and living to do it again may be useful. Perhaps the plan was to take down another target beginning last night and it fell apart for some reason. Plenty of IEDs planted by terrorists in the last 10 years in lieu of suicide bombers.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 98, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5149 times:

What is with this "spin" BS I keep hearing about? If CNN isn't burning Korans they are being leftists trying to downplay something? It's sad to see how nonsensical some people on the right have become.

Be mad at the media for it's lousy reporting on this issue but spare us the ridiculous witch hunts. And yeah (as a disclaimer) it would be dumb in the other direction if it was a white Christian male or something



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1247 posts, RR: 3
Reply 99, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5095 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 94):
And 95+% of the time they would be right. The other (very small) percentage of occasions is probably a toss-up between a left-wing extremist (or group of extremists, like that one in Chicago) or some wacko nutjob. But of course, we understand how limited the left's understanding of statistics is (for them it is just a tool to prove "disparate impact").

Statistically terrorism caused by left-wing extremists is almost non existent in the US while there have been plenty of crimes committed by right-wing extremists.

Also if you suggest that 95% of bombings done in the United States have been done by Islamic terrorists I got to inform you that you are most definitely wrong.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 100, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4975 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 100):
Statistically terrorism caused by left-wing extremists is almost non existent in the US while there have been plenty of crimes committed by right-wing extremists.

Please go dig up some statistics to back that up while I ROTFL.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26906 posts, RR: 58
Reply 101, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4848 times:

Listening to the interview that the BBC had with the Mother of the two it seems she was either totally in the dark or she is very naive.

An interview with the Chechnyan President blames their upbringing in the USA and says it has nothing to do with them.  


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 102, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4862 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 77):
He's at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center.

Yes, you are correct. Sorry for my mistake.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 82):
Well done to the City of Boston

Absolutely. I think it shows here as well as in most every part of this country we are very supportive of our law enforcement personnel (and I say 'our' because 'we the people' pay them and our representatives devise the laws they operate under). The people of this area gave up a day of their liberties (without knowing it'd be just a day) in order to make the job of law enforcement easier and to make things safer for themselves and their fellow city dwellers.

With the capture of the second suspect, I'm glad we can say that MIT Police Officer Sean Collier did not die in vain. It's small consolation for his family, especially his six-month old daughter, but at least it's some.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 88):
We only divide ourselves more if we try to jump to conclusions.

True, but of course some people profit by such division (politicians, media, etc) and others prefer division to compromise (see the Senate's failure to pass background checks when 86% of the citizens are in favor of it).

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 88):
Many people on this forum love to 'prove' how messed up the other side is. That's not healthy. I would hope that we, collectively, could wait on that.

I agree.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 88):
And no, I'm not the shining star example in this area, either. I admit that.

Me too. We all have our moments where we shine and others where we don't.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 89):
Take the best information available at the given time and try to analyze it in a logical manner and then revise it if necessary.

I don't have a problem with that, the problem is that some can't resist going wildly beyond the facts.

Take for instance the Saudi kid who just happened to be in the wrong place and was injured by shrapnel from the bomb. With no evidence at all, there were instantly theories about how this was the bomber just because he was Saudi. Even better if one could pull the Administration into this, even though if you were a US citizen who was a victim of an IED explosion in another country you'd be insisting that the US Dept of State should be looking after your interests.

Thanks to the Mods for keeping things on track. This certainly has been a big event in my life, and now hopefully we can all step back and put it into its proper perspective.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 103, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4829 times:

So for everyone who's pressing their own idea of the motivation behind the bombings, colored with their particular brand of political partisanship, today we have a news piece where the younger brother is described by one of his classmates as a disinterested stoner.

Relatives of Marathon bombing suspects worried that older brother was corrupting ‘sweet’ younger sibling



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 104, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4816 times:

I'm reading all kinds of comments on other sides about how we should halt immigration or how these brothers came here a whole ten years ago with terrorism in mind... talk about kneejerk and nonsensical respectively.

Have the motivations for the attacks come out yet?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 105, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
I'm reading all kinds of comments on other sides about how we should halt immigration

Where? I have never heard anything like this, even from the most radical anti-illegal-immigration groups.

Or are you attempting to blur the line between immigration and illegal immigration?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
or how these brothers came here a whole ten years ago with terrorism in mind

Possible but unlikely. From what I've read the older brother (the dead one) started to act weird just in the past couple of years, and managed to talk his little brother into his little plan relatively recently.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 106, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
Have the motivations for the attacks come out yet?

Not yet, Tsarnaev is still in serious condition in the hospital. He's also not been read his Miranda rights as of this morning.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 107, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4784 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
Where? I have never heard anything like this, even from the most radical anti-illegal-immigration groups.

Or are you attempting to blur the line between immigration and illegal immigration?

Nah, they were talking about halting all immigration. It was inane commentary mostly, as bad as YouTube comments

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
Possible but unlikely. From what I've read the older brother (the dead one) started to act weird just in the past couple of years, and managed to talk his little brother into his little plan relatively recently.

Yeah I mean he may have brought a tiny bit with him, but I doubt he and his brother came here planning to attack America 10 years ago. Again, it is some of the uneducated banter I've seen. Look at the comments from AeroWesty's article, reply 103. It's pretty bad

Edit: probably should've mentioned that in the first place, I haven't heard any politician or commentator saying anything like that, yet (hopefully never)

[Edited 2013-04-20 09:36:17]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 108, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4770 times:

This morning, Sen. Graham released a statement, along with Sens. Ayotte and McCain, and Rep. King, about the latest on the Boston suspect. The statement gives the "background on the legal authority, precedent and procedures for holding an American citizen as an enemy combatant."

https://www.facebook.com/USSenatorLindseyGraham/posts/10151454538348229

While controversial, it doesn't seem to be too far off the goals endorsed by the Obama administration in regards to interrogating suspected terrorists.

Delayed Miranda Warning Ordered for Terror Suspects

Quote:
WASHINGTON — The Federal Bureau of Investigation has instructed agents to interrogate suspected “operational terrorists” about immediate threats to public safety without advising them of their Miranda rights to remain silent and to have an attorney present.

A three-page F.B.I. memorandum, dated Oct. 21, 2010, also encouraged agents to use a broad interpretation of public safety-related questions. It said that the “magnitude and complexity” of the terrorist threat justified “a significantly more extensive public safety interrogation without Miranda warnings than would be permissible in an ordinary criminal case.”

This will be an interesting case to watch from a legal standpoint.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 109, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 108):
This will be an interesting case to watch from a legal standpoint.

I sure hope they did read him his rights. If it turns out that they acted on their own and it just becomes a plain and simple criminal matter (which is my feeling at this point) then that will be a huge mistake.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 110, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4758 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 103):
So for everyone who's pressing their own idea of the motivation behind the bombings, colored with their particular brand of political partisanship, today we have a news piece where the younger brother is described by one of his classmates as a disinterested stoner.

I've heard such on the radio, but read through your article and couldn't find a reference to him being a stoner, but it does seem he's a "go along to get along" type of guy whereas his older brother seems to have been quite aggressive.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
From what I've read the older brother (the dead one) started to act weird just in the past couple of years, and managed to talk his little brother into his little plan relatively recently.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/boston-bomb...-extremist-views/story?id=19006449 says:

Quote:

According to a family member, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, a devout Muslim, was kicked out of his uncle's house because of his increasingly extremist views on religion.

...

Tamerlan Tsarnaev spent roughly six months in Russia in 2012, but the relative, who insisted on anonymity to avoid offending other family members, insisted the young man had been radicalized in the United States before his trip.

Members of Congress, however, say those six months last year were a turning point in Tamerlan Tsarnaev's radicalization. "When he came back he starting posting more radical jihadist YouTube videos and started becoming more of a fundamentalist Muslim," Rep. Michael McCaul, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, told ABC News Friday.

"My concern is that he may have gone over there to visit his father and he received training and then became radicalized and then came back. Something happened in that period of time. He was not like that before," McCaul said.

So indeed the picture we are being given is of a person becoming more radicalized, either before a trip to Russia in 2012 or before.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 111, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 110):
read through your article and couldn't find a reference to him being a stoner,

My apologies, looks like I didn't copy everything from my text editor:

Friend: Suspect 'a normal pot head'

Quote:

The younger Boston Marathon bombing suspect seemed more interested in blunts than bombs while in college in Massachusetts, his classmate told POLITICO on Friday.

“He didn’t seem like a dangerous person at all,” said Chris Barry, a sophomore at UMass-Dartmouth, who became friends with Dzhokhar Tsarnaev — now a bombing suspect — on their first day of school. “He was a pothead, a normal pothead. I couldn’t even imagine him being mad at someone, let alone hurting someone.”



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 112, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
If it turns out that they acted on their own and it just becomes a plain and simple criminal matter (which is my feeling at this point)

It's been so hard to keep up with what your feelings have been!

From the first thread:

Quoting Dreadnought:
But the target by far fits more the profile of Islamofacists than a domestic group, in my opinion.
Quoting Dreadnought:
it's looking more and more likely that the motivation is Islamic extremism. Funny how the press is staying away from that issue like herpes.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 113, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4692 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 111):
My apologies, looks like I didn't copy everything from my text editor

Thanks. As I said, I had heard this on the radio, and now it's interesting to see the actual quote. It was also being said he was a huge soccer player/enthusiast and a wrestler, which isn't what I'd normally associate with pot smoking, but of course it doesn't rule it out either.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 114, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4618 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
how these brothers came here a whole ten years ago with terrorism in mind..

Aged 16 & 9?   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 115, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4609 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 112):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
If it turns out that they acted on their own and it just becomes a plain and simple criminal matter (which is my feeling at this point)

It's been so hard to keep up with what your feelings have been!

From the first thread:

Quoting Dreadnought:
But the target by far fits more the profile of Islamofacists than a domestic group, in my opinion.
Quoting Dreadnought:
it's looking more and more likely that the motivation is Islamic extremism. Funny how the press is staying away from that issue like herpes.

Ummm, why? I think I've been relatively consistent. You can be an Islamofascist aka Jihadi on your own, without ties to any sort of larger terrorist network. Federal Anti-terror laws were written with the latter in mind, and lacking such a network, IMHO it's purely a criminal matter (in other words a state/local matter). If murder is committed within the borders of a state, that state has jurisdiction.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 116, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4588 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 115):
Ummm, why?

From "without ties to any sort of larger terrorist network" to "fits more the profile of Islamofacists than a domestic group". You defined the association yourself.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 117, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 116):
From "without ties to any sort of larger terrorist network" to "fits more the profile of Islamofacists than a domestic group". You defined the association yourself.

Huh?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 118, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4574 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 117):
Huh?

What part aren't you understanding? That you qualified "Islamofascists" as a 'group' in your sentence?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 119, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4465 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 118):
What part aren't you understanding? That you qualified "Islamofascists" as a 'group' in your sentence?


The term works in the singular as well. A fundamentalist does not have to work hand in hand with a group.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 120, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days ago) and read 4422 times:

I have a serious question. I don't know the answer.

The mother is claiming this is a government conspiracy and her children would never do such a thing. But, they were throwing pipe bombs and other weapons at police during the pursuit.

My question is: Does the FBI or CIA or Homeland Security have red flags that go up when a computer logs onto a bomb making site or a militant terrorist site? Would an IP address showing up multiple times tell officials to watch the owner of that computer?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 121, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4408 times:

Seb146 (Rep 120); I should think the answer to your question is yes. Every site anyone accesses to usually goes to at least marketers, so I'm sure the "officials" have an eye on people accessing such sites. Case in point; I often comment on auto-related topics here on A.net and almost every time I log on to Airliners, I will get some auto-related pop-up advertisement.

You see, even here on this site, we are being "monitored" by others, so it's hard for me to believe that those accessing such sites as you mentioned aren't tagged on some government official site for perusal. regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 122, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 120):

My question is: Does the FBI or CIA or Homeland Security have red flags that go up when a computer logs onto a bomb making site or a militant terrorist site?

The NSA does. Can't speak for the FBI/CIA/DHS, although they probably just use the NSA data.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 120):
Would an IP address showing up multiple times tell officials to watch the owner of that computer?

IP addresses do not point to a computer, but a subscriber line, and are easily spoofed or rerouted through a proxy.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 123, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 120):
The mother is claiming this is a government conspiracy and her children would never do such a thing. But, they were throwing pipe bombs and other weapons at police during the pursuit.

Along with robbing a convenience store, killing a security guard and carjacking a vehicle during this particular day.

Okie


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 124, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4366 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 121):
You see, even here on this site, we are being "monitored" by others, so it's hard for me to believe that those accessing such sites as you mentioned aren't tagged on some government official site for perusal. regards...jack

That makes sense. When I look for hotels and flights for vacations, I get ads here for different hotels and events.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 125, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 123):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 120):
The mother is claiming this is a government conspiracy and her children would never do such a thing. But, they were throwing pipe bombs and other weapons at police during the pursuit.

Along with robbing a convenience store, killing a security guard and carjacking a vehicle during this particular day.

I'm sure she'd say that all that was a mistake too. Honestly, I'd cut her a break, I'm sure this ordeal is very hard on her. Let's see what she's saying in a few weeks from now



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7394 posts, RR: 17
Reply 126, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
The US never had a role in Chechnya but never condemned Russia for it, so I think it goes back to that old saying that goes, "The enemy of my enemy......"

I guess that makes sense....but I'm starting to see some reports of the younger guy frequenting many islamist websites....Someone on a different forum speculated he posted a video by Anwar Al-Awaki (that American citizen drone-striked last year...check my spelling) on his SNS account.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
Photo of "White Hat", the surviving suspect, fleeing the blast:

There are a LOT of photos that people incidentally took of the suspects, without even knowing they're suspects. That's actually quite a blessing in disguise.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 120):
My question is: Does the FBI or CIA or Homeland Security have red flags that go up when a computer logs onto a bomb making site or a militant terrorist site? Would an IP address showing up multiple times tell officials to watch the owner of that computer?
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 122):
The NSA does. Can't speak for the FBI/CIA/DHS, although they probably just use the NSA data.

They're technically not supposed to...but then again we've seen the FBI and CIA wiretap phones before....



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 127, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 122):
IP addresses do not point to a computer, but a subscriber line, and are easily spoofed or rerouted through a proxy.

The IP address of a relative (mom I think) of terrorist Mohammed Merah ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings ) was key to identifying him. Not all terrorists are masterminds, fortunately.

After that event there were calls from politicians to deal with fundamentalist websites more thoroughly (closing them), but the law enforcement and intelligence communities quickly explained that they'd rather keep them running, allowing them to monitor who is looking them up.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 128, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4329 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 125):
I'm sure she'd say that all that was a mistake too. Honestly, I'd cut her a break, I'm sure this ordeal is very hard on her. Let's see what she's saying in a few weeks from now

She will still blame the government and claim her son is a nice boy. She is a mother. I get what you are saying, but my guess is she will stand by her son to the bitter end.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 129, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 83):
I have no respect for someone who claims asylum from my country.

Maybe your country shouldn't be giving them a reason to claim asylum.   

Quoting OA260 (Reply 101):
An interview with the Chechnyan President blames their upbringing in the USA and says it has nothing to do with them.

The younger brother was only about 9 when he moved to the US. So that sounds about right.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 126):
They're technically not supposed to...but then again we've seen the FBI and CIA wiretap phones before....


Actually, an easy argument can be made that it falls within the limits of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 130, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4304 times:
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The BBC is claiming that both boys were known to the FBI and had been interviewed "at the request of a foreign Government" (thought to be Russia)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22232196



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 131, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 129):
Quoting tu204 (Reply 83):
I have no respect for someone who claims asylum from my country.

Maybe your country shouldn't be giving them a reason to claim asylum.

   Russia beats up on the Chechens from time to time, and we'd expect the Chechens to just sit there and like it? I'd claim asylum if I could too, were I in that situation.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7394 posts, RR: 17
Reply 132, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4282 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 129):
Actually, an easy argument can be made that it falls within the limits of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Hmmm perhaps you have a point, and explains why they didn't read Dzhokat his miranda rights



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 133, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 121):
You see, even here on this site, we are being "monitored" by others, so it's hard for me to believe that those accessing such sites as you mentioned aren't tagged on some government official site for perusal.

Look yourself or others up at spokeo.com. The amount of your personal information gleaned from just your online activity is astonishing. And it's all for sale from aggregators such as this one. The government doesn't need to duplicate those efforts on everyone.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 130):
The BBC is claiming that both boys were known to the FBI and had been interviewed "at the request of a foreign Government" (thought to be Russia)

Only the older brother was under investigation:

2011 Request for Information on Tamerlan Tsarnaev from Foreign Government

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 132):
Hmmm perhaps you have a point, and explains why they didn't read Dzhokat his miranda rights

Dzhokar Tsarnaev hasn't been Mirandized so far due to being in the hospital under sedation and intubation. Since he's unable to communicate, he's isn't able to confirm he understands his rights, so reading them to him at the moment would be futile.

He'll probably be Mirandized at his arraignment.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7394 posts, RR: 17
Reply 134, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4166 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 133):
He'll probably be Mirandized at his arraignment.

I saw an AP Article on my phone which said that someone (either the federal personal defender bureau or equivalent) or the state of Massachusetts public defender bureau agreed to defend Tsarnaev at his arraignment and thereafter.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 135, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

Funny to read these days the same people who said we had too many laws during the background check debate are having no problem with weighing the nuances of the various laws one might use to prosecute this SOB. In particular my own Sen. Ayotte is again covering herself in infamy.

I ran across the following image from the Mass State Police:



Taken from their helo, using a thermal imager...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 136, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4108 times:

So what does everyone think about the talk of trying him as an enemy combatant? I'm completely against it, he is a citizen even if one wishes he wasn't, you just can't strip him of that.

Though I have heard talk of him getting his citizenship fraudulently... I haven't read up too much about it, but I'd hate to see us go down the road of finding some small technicality and stripping him of his citizenship just so we can designate him an enemy combatant... it would have to be an egregious level of fraud before I'd like us to go down that road...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 137, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
So what does everyone think about the talk of trying him as an enemy combatant?

It's a distraction. We've got pictures of the suspects in the area, we've got the remnants of their bombs that were exploded, we got their bombs that they threw at police, we got their firearms, we've got the evidence from the rounds their firearms expended, we've got one brother killed in the firefight, we've got countless cops and civilians who can identify the second brother, etc.

Let's just get on with trying the SOB, just like we did Timothy McVeigh.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
Though I have heard talk of him getting his citizenship fraudulently... I haven't read up too much about it, but I'd hate to see us go down the road of finding some small technicality and stripping him of his citizenship just so we can designate him an enemy combatant...

It's petty, small minded and vindictive. The man's a criminal. There's plenty of evidence so let's just get on with the trial instead of gumming up the works with something like this which may or may not involve a trip to the Supreme Court to sort out.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 138, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

Apparently the surviving brother cannot talk at this time due to his injuries, either from the police or from his own attempts to kill himself. As a result, they may 'miarandize' him and formally charge him with a Judge by video or in the room to conduct the arraignment hearing.

The right wing and much of the MSM is in a frenzy over the alleged Islamic connections and if part of a much larger terror plot. We have heard nothing of how and who they got their guns from, the explosives materialsor how they learned how to make bombs that worked. One has to wonder if this was a 'trial run' by a larger anti-American/ Anti-Western and possibly Islamic world group. I suspect in the next week or so, we are going to see a number of persons investigated and arrested.

I also have to wonder about the mental health of these alleged bombers and anyone else that would do major terror acts. I guess if you hate someone or some power enough, you in your mind can justify murder and terror, but some may be more likely to become that way due to mental and psychological issues.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 139, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 138):
I also have to wonder about the mental health of these alleged bombers and anyone else that would do major terror acts. I guess if you hate someone or some power enough, you in your mind can justify murder and terror, but some may be more likely to become that way due to mental and psychological issues.

The uncle of the older brother calls him a "loser" and most of the family distanced themselves from him. The older brother has been arrested for domestic violence and the uncle hinted that this was the reason the family stayed away from him, that he was a wife beater. Unlike the younger brother, his English was not good and he had a hard time fitting into society in the US.

I surely hope the younger brother recovers well enough to stand trial.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19500 posts, RR: 58
Reply 140, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4034 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
I sure hope they did read him his rights. If it turns out that they acted on their own and it just becomes a plain and simple criminal matter (which is my feeling at this point) then that will be a huge mistake.

I'm shocked. We seem to agree. But furthermore, I believe that terrorism IS a crime. It should be treated as one. The fact that one gets a fair trial does not mean that one stands a chance of getting let off for a horrible thing. In this case, the evidence for guilt is overwhelming. He isn't going to be found "not guilty" on some silly technicality.

If we give up our principles when the going gets tough, then the bar for giving up those principles gets lower and lower until the principles are abandoned altogether. And then the terrorists have won.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 138):
The right wing and much of the MSM is in a frenzy over the alleged Islamic connections

And they didn't even regularly attend their Mosque. This isn't about Islamism. This is about someone being mentally ill and the mental illness manifesting of hyperreligiosity. How he roped his little brother into it...well, I guess hero worship goes a long way.

EDIT: I should elaborate a bit. One of the common features of mental illness is a sense that "someone" is talking to you or putting ideas into your head. It doesn't need to be frank voices. It could be just these ideas. One common manifestation of this phenomenon is that the ideas must be coming from God. Sometimes, patients believe it's the aliens, secret government transmissions, and the like. But God is a common one. Of course, when there are real voices online and in the media claiming that God is Great and God wants you to kill and the God-voice in your head is saying the same thing, it's not hard to guess the result.

I initially wanted to blame religion for this one, and to some degree, religion is still to blame for legitimizing this popular delusion of a "supernatural voice that speaks into your head." But the proximal cause in this case wasn't religion, but mental illness that used religion as an excuse. I blame religion for providing that excuse, but not as the proximal cause.

[Edited 2013-04-21 11:25:12]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 141, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
So what does everyone think about the talk of trying him as an enemy combatant?

I think it's an interesting argument worth talking about. Why ...

• Even if nothing comes of it, the debate over how someone could become classified as an enemy combatant on U.S. soil is an interesting one while being educational; and

• It may help re-examine some of the current administration's foreign policies—certainly if the Tsarnaev brothers had committed the same act against Americans abroad, they may have very well qualified to become targets of our drone policy.

The thing which caught my attention is that Sen. McCain endorses this. He's a guy who I've a lot of respect for (he even voted for the recent gun background check law), and he says there's some value in doing this. McCain deserves to be heard.

As a free and open society, we shouldn't be afraid to ask if we're doing things right, even if on the face of it it may not look like the right thing to do. That's one reason why earlier in the thread I looked at whether or not Tsarnaev's citizenship could be revoked, even in the face of others taking that to incorrectly mean that I endorsed stripping his citizenship from him. (And who knows, that in itself could be an interesting point to review—Tsarnaev has only been a U.S. citizen for 7 months.)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 142, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4009 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 141):

I see what you are saying but some of the rhetoric I've been hearing (and again, from some of the masses, not any particular educated individuals) has been pretty ignorant and racist, accusing the President of trying to hide the Islamic motivations because he's Muslim or he's mad it's not a Tea Party member or downplaying the immigrant status because of the President's (?) immigration bill. IDK just banter, I fear there is gonna be a movement not based in values or reason to make him an enemy combatant even though justice can be acheived in civil court and we just can't strip citizenship when it's convenient



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 143, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
I fear there is gonna be a movement not based in values or reason to make him an enemy combatant even though justice can be acheived in civil court and we just can't strip citizenship when it's convenient

Well I agree, but there will be extremists on any issue. That shouldn't stop us from examining the issues. If we succumbed to all the nonsense out there (some of it manufactured for radio and TV ratings), very important issues would never get the serious discussion they deserve. At the end of the day, I think as a society we've been able to separate the wheat from the chaff, even if it comes down to having the courts decide for us, such as in Roe v. Wade.

That's the nice thing about America, we can take a heavy dose of controversy without it breaking up the republic.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 144, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 140):
I'm shocked. We seem to agree. But furthermore, I believe that terrorism IS a crime. It should be treated as one.

To be clear, if it becomes evident that the perp in custody acted in conjunction with a terrorist organization, or otherwise someone who motivated and supported the attack, then special rules may then apply where interrogation methods otherwise unavailable in criminal cases become justifiable, for the purposes of gaining as much intel as we can about a clear and present danger.

But lacking evidence pointing to such a motivator/supporter, then he should be treated as any other scumbag.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6176 posts, RR: 30
Reply 145, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3947 times:
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Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 80):
Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

As others have said. This is going to be treated at the Federal Level.

My question at this point is: does anybody know the injuries of the Tsarnaev brother and the extent of them and is he going to make it?

From what I´ve read, it seems like it´s touch and go at this point.



MGGS
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 146, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 133):
Dzhokar Tsarnaev hasn't been Mirandized so far due to being in the hospital under sedation and intubation. Since he's unable to communicate, he's isn't able to confirm he understands his rights, so reading them to him at the moment would be futile.

He'll probably be Mirandized at his arraignment.

Yeah, No point in mirandizing somebody who is hopped up on painkillers, the defense can make the arguement they where too drugged to understand the charges. Also once an arrest is made that person is a prisoner and by definition becomes a ward of the state. that means that the medical bills come out of the states budget. That is why up here a lot of times arrests don't occur until the person is released from the hospital.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 120):
The mother is claiming this is a government conspiracy and her children would never do such a thing. But, they were throwing pipe bombs and other weapons at police during the pursuit.

The mom just go her world turned upside down. You will have to agree that all of a sudden hearing your kids may have did this and one of them has been killed is one hell of a shock.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 81):
Well there was just an interesting debate on this issue with a couple of lawyers on CNN. There is apparently no clear-cut precedent on whether the govt. may seek the death penalty in a federal case in a state which does not have the death penalty as form of punishment. The last time the death penalty was sought in a case such as this was against Timothy McVeigh, where the death penalty was granted as it is a legal form of punishment in Oklahoma.

I can think of a couple of cases up here where the state chose to let the feds take the lead on cases. because of more favorable rules for the prosecution. That actually happens up here quite a bit because federal evidence rules are looser that in Alaska.

Schaffer Cox was accused of being a milita leader and later convicted in federal court of being in possesion of illegal weapons (hand grenades) and plotting to kill at least a couple of federal and state officals and magistrates. At first the state attempted to bring the weapons charges against Cox but the defense was successful in arguing some of the evidence was inadmissable because of the privacy protections in the State of Alaska constitution. The cases where withdrawn on the state level and federal prosecutors filed charges. He was convicted on the federal charges because the evidence was allowed in the federal court system which lacks those protections.

Another one was a guy named Joshua Wade. He was accused of murdering a nurse up here. He had been accused of another murder up here and was aquited of it, OJ style. Nobody up here believed he didn't do it. He was conviceted of tampering with evidence (the body) and spent a couple of years in prison. This sparked a bit of a race war up here because the victim was native and a lot of people said that because of that he got off.

When he was accused of the second murder, he used the victims credit card to withdraw cash. The state went ahead and allowed the feds to prosecute the murder based on the fact that he commited bank/wire fraud by using the victims ATM card. He was charged with capital murder under federal statutes (Alaska has not had the death penalty since statehood). He pled guilty in exchange for a life sentance and as part of the plea deal admited that he had committed the earlier murder. He is spending the rest of his life in the federal penn.


Anyway the point is that in the first case the feds took over since the state because of our stronger civil rights projects was likely not to successfully prosecute the crime. In the second the feds where able to leverage a possible penalty to secure a quilty plea. Something that was not possible at the state level.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19500 posts, RR: 58
Reply 147, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 141):
• Even if nothing comes of it, the debate over how someone could become classified as an enemy combatant on U.S. soil is an interesting one while being educational; and

Nobody should ever be classified as an enemy combatant on US soil unless they are wearing a foreign flag, in which case they are a POW. I don't like this idea that suddenly when someone decides that you're "foreign-ish" based on whatever criteria are fashionable that the Bill of Rights vanishes from under your feet. If he were instead spouting nonsense about Jesus is Lord, would everyone be so fast to call him an "Enemy Combatant" or just a "Mass Murderer?"


User currently offlinemdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 148, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3943 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 101):
Listening to the interview that the BBC had with the Mother of the two it seems she was either totally in the dark or she is very naive.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 120):
The mother is claiming this is a government conspiracy and her children would never do such a thing. But, they were throwing pipe bombs and other weapons at police during the pursuit.

Not surprised that the parents would claim it's a setup. Either did not play a major role in their children's lives (dad said he was a 2nd year medical student---um no) or are in major denial.

I know it's the Daily Fail but it looks like the mother has a rap sheet as well:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...--Taylor.html?ICO=most_read_module

I'm also not a parent and not trying to judge, but if they came to the US for a better life for their children, would't they stick around for a little longer? My immigrant parents have lived here for 37 years and IF they do go back, they wouldn't think of it until my younger brother is "settled."

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
So what does everyone think about the talk of trying him as an enemy combatant? I'm completely against it, he is a citizen even if one wishes he wasn't, you just can't strip him of that.

Agreed; regardless of what he did, he should get his rights to a proper trial.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 149, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 146):
That is why up here a lot of times arrests don't occur until the person is released from the hospital.

Do they just place a guard at the hospital door so the suspect can't escape, then arrest when he/she is well enough to be released?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 147):
I don't like this idea that suddenly when someone decides that you're "foreign-ish" based on whatever criteria are fashionable that the Bill of Rights vanishes from under your feet.

It isn't unconstitutional to investigate whether Tsarnaev's citizenship was obtained by deception, and it shouldn't be seen as an attack on the Bill of Rights to ask that question. If there is a question, I'd much rather have it answered now than halfway through his prosecution. I honestly don't understand the fear of doing so as no rights are being sacrificed by conducting such an investigation.

There are real threats to America out there. Just yesterday, another man was arrested while on his way to Syria, who is suspected of providing material support to a foreign terrorist organization.

US teen accused of seeking to join al Qaeda-linked Syrian group

Quote:
An 18-year-old Chicago-area man accused of planning to join an al Qaeda-linked group fighting in Syria has been arrested by the FBI, the agency said on Saturday.

Abdella Ahmad Tounisi of Aurora, Illinois, was taken into custody late on Friday as he prepared to board a plane at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport bound for Turkey, the FBI said in a statement.

It added that Tounisi was a friend of Adel Daoud, an American accused of trying to stage a bombing outside a downtown Chicago bar last year. The agency said Tounisi had not been involved in that plot.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 150, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 145):
My question at this point is: does anybody know the injuries of the Tsarnaev brother and the extent of them and is he going to make it?

Looks like Tsarnaev's neck wound could be from a suicide attempt, according to CBS News:

Boston bombing suspect in serious condition

Quote:
Currently, Tsarnaev is not in good shape and lost a lot of blood, explained CBS News correspondent John Miller. The suspect has a bullet wound to what appears to be the back of his neck and another to his leg. But it's bullet wound to the neck that is actually pretty intriguing to investigators.

Of course, he and his brother were in a big shoot-out," said Miller. "But [investigators are] saying that wound to the back of the neck is very possibly a suicide attempt. They say it appears from the wound that he might have stuck a gun in his mouth, and fired and actually just went out the back of his neck without killing him. That's one of the reasons he's unable to communicate, but he can understand what they're saying. And they believe there will be a point where he will be able to talk to him.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 151, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3886 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 137):

Let's just get on with trying the SOB, just like we did Timothy McVeigh.

McVeigh only had charges on the federal level for 8 deaths which were federal agents in the building.
The other 161 were civil service employees, civilians, civilians in the building along with children in the federal day care center and a day care center across the street which were dealt with on the state level.
Federal trumped.

So with the Boston incident ,not being a lawyer or have all the facts, the federal laws that appear to be involved would seem to be the bomb making side of the offence. Again I do not know but I would wonder if the death penalty is even available for those infractions.
Just a thought.

Okie


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 152, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Theorectically China would also have a claim against the bomber, since they killed one of their citizens.

Jan


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 153, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Now we read:

Quote:

Marathon bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev was alive and struggling with Watertown police early Friday morning, when his younger brother and alleged co-conspirator drove over him in a stolen SUV, dragging him on the pavement and apparently inflicting the fatal injuries that killed him, said Watertown Police Chief Ed Deveau in a Globe interview.

And goes on to say:

Quote:

After several minutes, the elder brother, Tamerlan, walked toward the officers, firing his gun until he appeared to run out of bullets, Deveau said. Officers tackled him and were trying to get handcuffs on him, when the stolen SUV came roaring at them, the younger brother at the wheel. The officers scattered and the SUV plowed over Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who was dragged briefly under the car, he said.

Dzhokar Tsarnaev abandoned the SUV almost immediately on a nearby street and fled on foot, triggering an all-day manhunt.

Meanwhile, officers at the scene treated MBTA Transit Police Officer Richard H. Donohue Jr., who had arrived on the scene and was wounded in the gunfight.

It's not clear if the younger brother was trying to kill more cops or kill his brother, but it seems to be a fact that the brother is responsible for yet another death, that of his own brother.

I'm not sure if the "after several minutes" part means the brothers had time to formulate a plan.

Ref: http://boston.com/metrodesk/2013/04/.../jaIyrXr8fSnf5Pu4xnRbvM/story.html



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6176 posts, RR: 30
Reply 154, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3868 times:
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Quoting okie (Reply 151):
Again I do not know but I would wonder if the death penalty is even available for those infractions.

According to what I listened on some news outlet, a terrorist attack, as this one is, is now a Federal offense. I´m not sure if that was the case when McVeigh bombed OKC.



MGGS
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 155, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3823 times:

McVeigh was only charged with the murders of the eight federal employees that died. Since Trey where feds on duty the federal government handled that trial on the federal system

I think a state prosecutor did want to try McVeigh in state court but once he got and chose not to contest the federal death sentence he received that became a bit pointless and quite honestly a waste of resources. I think He was an elected prosecuter so trying McVeigh may have been seen as a campaign issue for him.



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User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 156, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day ago) and read 3801 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 155):
I think a state prosecutor did want to try McVeigh in state court but once he got and chose not to contest the federal death sentence he received that became a bit pointless and quite honestly a waste of resources

L-188 he was charged in state court but never went to trial, just in case the federal counts would somehow be overturned.
While there were some political ramblings about the process as to a waste of time, the families of the other 161 victims wanted all bases covered and you really can not blame them irregardless whether it was a waste of resources.

Okie


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2781 posts, RR: 4
Reply 157, posted (1 year 4 months 23 hours ago) and read 3771 times:
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Just saw on twitter he is conscious and writing responses to questions on paper. I'm sure the FBI is trying to get as much out of him as they can. Does anybody know if his parents have made their way to Boston? I know the father is in Russia, but I haven't heard too much besides the angel remark from his mother.
Pat



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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 158, posted (1 year 4 months 19 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 149):
There are real threats to America out there. Just yesterday, another man was arrested while on his way to Syria, who is suspected of providing material support to a foreign terrorist organization.

US teen accused of seeking to join al Qaeda-linked Syrian group

Actually that's not a direct threat and I'm wondering on what basis they arrested him. Here we certainly can't do that. We just have made a law allowing to arrest them when they come back, though, but not from Syria, from Taliban camps.



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User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 159, posted (1 year 4 months 16 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 140):
And they didn't even regularly attend their Mosque. This isn't about Islamism. This is about someone being mentally ill and the mental illness manifesting of hyperreligiosity. How he roped his little brother into it...well, I guess hero worship goes a long way.

EDIT: I should elaborate a bit. One of the common features of mental illness is a sense that "someone" is talking to you or putting ideas into your head. It doesn't need to be frank voices. It could be just these ideas. One common manifestation of this phenomenon is that the ideas must be coming from God. Sometimes, patients believe it's the aliens, secret government transmissions, and the like. But God is a common one. Of course, when there are real voices online and in the media claiming that God is Great and God wants you to kill and the God-voice in your head is saying the same thing, it's not hard to guess the result.

I initially wanted to blame religion for this one, and to some degree, religion is still to blame for legitimizing this popular delusion of a "supernatural voice that speaks into your head." But the proximal cause in this case wasn't religion, but mental illness that used religion as an excuse. I blame religion for providing that excuse, but not as the proximal cause.

He possibly came to the US expecting the money just lying in the streets, and him just having to bring a shovel.
Lots of wishes and expectations, but none of them came true. So then he started blaming the "unfair" society for his failures.
My ex was similar (though not violent). She came to the US as a Filipino nurse a dozen years ago, having had a job in Germany and a German nursing licence. Before she left she was always talking about the huge salary they would pay to nurses in the US and just being a supervisor with others doing the actual work, and what she would buy from this money.
Guess what. She failed the NCLEX (exams for foreign nursing school graduates to get an American nurse´s licence) twice and ended up having to work two jobs as a care assistant to make ends meet (she had an expensive lifestyle as well). Now it is everybody else´s fault that she gave up a wellpaying job in Germany with career prospects and a full social security net.


Jan


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20487 posts, RR: 62
Reply 160, posted (1 year 4 months 14 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 158):
Actually that's not a direct threat and I'm wondering on what basis they arrested him.

Violating provisions of the Patriot Act. It's fairly wide-encompassing.



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User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 161, posted (1 year 4 months 13 hours ago) and read 3598 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 154):
According to what I listened on some news outlet, a terrorist attack, as this one is, is now a Federal offense.

Yes, to echo what you are saying:

Quote:

Massachusetts does not permit the death penalty for defendants charged in state courts, but federal prosecutors can seek capital punishment for crimes that include the deadly use of weapons of mass destruction.

Ref: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/20.../76AdFpsO9NcElmkrmtQRMO/story.html



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User currently offlinehelvknight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 162, posted (1 year 4 months 11 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 154):
According to what I listened on some news outlet, a terrorist attack, as this one is, is now a Federal offense. I´m not sure if that was the case when McVeigh bombed OKC.

IIRC when Eric Rudolph was caught he was tried as a federal suspect even though Georgia and Alabama wanted to try him (for the Olympic Park bombing and blowing up a bunch of abortion clinics and a gay bar)

GA and AL wanted to give him a 60,000 volt goodbye but the feds let him get away with life without parole and he is currently resident in the Supermax in Colorado and not enjoying it one bit.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 163, posted (1 year 4 months 10 hours ago) and read 3535 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 160):
Violating provisions of the Patriot Act. It's fairly wide-encompassing.

I wonder if he'll get a good lawyer and if that could lead to people or judges questioning that law.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams