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Apple Profits Fall For First Time In A Decade  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26977 posts, RR: 57
Posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2447 times:

So whats the future for Apple ? Have the glory days ended?

Apple profits fall for first time in a decade

Computer and smartphone maker Apple has reported its first quarterly drop in profits in a decade.

The iPhone maker made a net profit of $9.5bn (£6.2bn) for the three months to the end of March, down from the $11.6bn it reported at the same time last year.

But the results were better than many investors had expected, and strong sales of iPhones and iPads helped boost revenues to $43.6bn.

Concerns among investors had caused Apple's share price to plummet.

It had lost around 40% of its stock market value since hitting an all-time high in September last year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22274324

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5710 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2447 times:

When you're top of the pile, there's only one way you can go . . .

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2441 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
So whats the future for Apple ? Have the glory days ended?

9.5 BUSD and over 20% margin. Pretty damn good in my book.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2436 times:

Given the state and particularly the trajectory of their competition and of the overall computer market, I'd look elsewhere for signs of impending doom.

User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8535 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Depends. A delta of 2 bln usd per quarter in P&L year over year is incredibly bad.


But...

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):

When you're top of the pile, there's only one way you can go . . .

So maybe they should just count 2012 as a lucky year and move on.


User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2377 times:

Apple's iTunes Store broke the $4 Billion barrier for the 3 months and they have 74% of the app market. Phones and pads are blowing out the door (with new version not far off) an the Mac has slowed a bit (probably at the hand of the iPad), but that might have been to supply issues of the new iMac.

Overall Apple is still showing the PC world how to do it.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Apple's iTunes Store broke the $4 Billion barrier for the 3 months and they have 74% of the app market. Phones and pads are blowing out the door (with new version not far off) an the Mac has slowed a bit (probably at the hand of the iPad), but that might have been to supply issues of the new iMac.

Overall Apple is still showing the PC world how to do it.

The IPAD numbers were phenomenal when you step back and look at it a bit. I am sure the mini is eating the margin's there, but the Mini and the regular Ipad are selling a lot of volume.

The Iphone numbers were up as well. Too many investing folks are focusing on the fact that the margins are slipping, yet they don't recognize what has happened. All that clamoring for a low cost low end phone? The Iphone 4 is it. It got by some estimates 15% of sales over the last quarter. The Iphone 4s got about 20-30 %. The Iphone 5 got over 50 % of the sales. Apple has moved into a market where, especially in the US, they have a logical choice product for those wanting a cheap phone with a contract.

Itunes is a story worth watching, and I think this is where a lot of the growth is going to come from. I think one of the things apple has to be aware of and actively combating is the ability of Amazon, Netflix, and Hulu to capitalize on streaming apps over their products. Apple may need to combat that by offering those services over the itv and other devices. I also expect Apple to get a bit more serious with their ITV offering in order to allow gaming choices.


All in all, Apple is making money, but they need to start getting to work on a Phablet phone, and taking in more of their revenue through Apps and video markets.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12543 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Have the glory days ended?

In short, yes.

The signs are clear.

They clearly don't roll out innovation at the rate they used to.

They pulled off hit after hit (iPod, iPhone, iPad) and there's no hint of another gangbuster emerging.

They used to be miles ahead on software and hardware, now they are not.

They find themselves having to cheapen product to hit lower price points instead of charging premium prices.

They used to keep the high ground for themselves, now they find that they are getting undermined from below.

They are using their enormous bankroll to try to keep Wall Street happy instead of spending it on innovative products.

So, not doom and gloom, but yes, not the glory days either.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They clearly don't roll out innovation at the rate they used to.

????

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They pulled off hit after hit (iPod, iPhone, iPad) and there's no hint of another gangbuster emerging.

Ipod (2001), Iphone (2007), IPad (2010)....

2013 and 2014 would still be inside their window.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They used to be miles ahead on software and hardware, now they are not.

Based on some of the reviews I have seen of the S4, they may be miles ahead.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They find themselves having to cheapen product to hit lower price points instead of charging premium prices.

This is commodotization, which is a very real battle they are facing. However it is good for consumers as it gets the costs down and the quality up.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12543 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 8):
Ipod (2001), Iphone (2007), IPad (2010)....

iPad isn't a lot of innovation. It's basically an iPhone in a different form factor, minus the telephony bits.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2797 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2184 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
iPad isn't a lot of innovation. It's basically an iPhone in a different form factor, minus the telephony bits.

Perhaps, but it helped launch an all new segment in the industry. Tablets had been out for years before the iPad, but the market exploded after it's launch. I know I never thought about getting a tablet until the iPad came out, and now I'm glued.

This decline at least to me, was expected. They haven't done anything overly innovative in the last year or so and I keep hearing the PC segment is slowing. They need to go back to the game changing mentality and stop chasing the low income segment with a cheaper iPhone. A high priced iPhone never stopped people from buying them before. Why lower your margins to get the few people that consider it out of reach? They also desperately need to refresh the iPhone interface. I like it, but the same old set up is starting to get old. Their next big step I think has to be the television. I have their AppleTv now and I love it, but it still feels like it is missing something. I personally think they should have tried to buy Sony with their pile of cash. Mate the hardware and knowledge brought from Sony's tv department with the Apple operating system. Match made in heaven if you ask me.
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2160 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 6):
The IPAD numbers were phenomenal when you step back and look at it a bit. I am sure the mini is eating the margin's there, but the Mini and the regular Ipad are selling a lot of volume.

The mini may be eating up some of the iPad gross margin, but it has exploded the volume of iPads sold - generating GM based on volume.

Just as important, each mini sold puts the customer on the iOS platform, with Apple getting the cut of sales from the AppStore. If you look at long term revenues from each mini sold I think that the only thing you can do is smile.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They clearly don't roll out innovation at the rate they used to.

Have you seen the new iMac?

Innovation can be related to new, innovative designs of an existing product as well as entering a new product line.

Maybe people are thinking of an iWatch (which would probably be profitable) or iTV (which is already making money.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They used to be miles ahead on software and hardware, now they are not.

That's a matter of opinion. Some people like the fact that Android allows companies to make all the changed they want. Others like the continuation of a single iOS, upgraded when new technology is available, but generally protecting the customer's investments in apps.

Hardware depends on what you consider important. Apple has some engineers that are as bright as their design teams. The use of aluminum in their products is, for me, a pretty impressive approach. Even the MacBook Air only needs 4 pads on the bottom - not the 6 that was traditional in the more flexible light weight plastic portables.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They are using their enormous bankroll to try to keep Wall Street happy instead of spending it on innovative products.

With $144 Billion in cash Apple can address both. Investments in R&D continues

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
iPad isn't a lot of innovation. It's basically an iPhone in a different form factor, minus the telephony bits.

Might be because Apple first developed the initial interface and decided to go with the phone before that tablet. When Steve Jobs introduced the iPad he made a point of saying that if you own an iPhone or iPod touch "you already know how to use it",

What you are looking at is iOS devices, where iOS is a subset of OS X. That is a lot of long term innovation and it hasn't ended yet.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8535 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2153 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
iPad isn't a lot of innovation. It's basically an iPhone in a different form factor, minus the telephony bits.

Okay, that is true. Apple is not a huge innovation company. They integrate. They take disorganized, useless technology and make products people other than nerds and D&D clubs want to own / use. Usually Apple's innovations are in marketing and user experience. UE is a huge profit center.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10733 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

What goes up, must come down. Apple´s insane profits cant go on forever. Even if they make less money now, they are still a ridiculously rich company making truckloads of cash, come on.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

You can't expect double digit growth year after year after year. Scale catches up to you. We saw that when Microsoft plateaued in the late 90s - once you've gotten so big, your P&L is going to trend with the overall market (or segment)

One thing that always makes me laugh is that while Apple represents everything that OWS and similar-minded people like to protest (all their manufacturing is outsourced to Asia, they keep most of their money offshore to avoid taxes, sell at high profit margins, huge management bonuses and salaries), everyone's cool with it because...

because...

Why?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):

One thing that always makes me laugh is that while Apple represents everything that OWS and similar-minded people like to protest (all their manufacturing is outsourced to Asia, they keep most of their money offshore to avoid taxes, sell at high profit margins, huge management bonuses and salaries), everyone's cool with it because...

because...

Why?

Because your argument is a bit weak in this case as Apple is a global company that is makiing profits in other countries. They also have high levels of R&D and Sales in the countries they are present in,

They also build a product that allows multiple companies from many countries to profit through music, video, and software.

It isn't a cut and dried issue.

Should they manufacture more in the US? yes. based on numbers. However as manufacturing is so cheap due to policy in China, they have no choice but to manufacture there. However they are currently starting to do R&D in the US as well.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2403 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2131 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
because...

Why?

Because Apple has left the geek / education business, and now caters the moron / fashion market.

I grew up with the LC III and Performa 5200 computers. I've used the Quadra and the LC II.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2119 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
Apple is not a huge innovation company. They integrate. They take disorganized, useless technology and make products people other than nerds and D&D clubs want to own / use. Usually Apple's innovations are in marketing and user experience. UE is a huge profit center.

There is a big misunderstanding about what "innovation" actually is.

Integrating components and technologies into an attractive and long-term satisfying product is actually the hardest and most complex part of it all if you're doing it right (which few do) – that is why they reap the lion's share of the revenue and profits on this basis.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
Should they manufacture more in the US? yes. based on numbers. However as manufacturing is so cheap due to policy in China, they have no choice but to manufacture there. However they are currently starting to do R&D in the US as well.

Their core R&D has always been in the US, and I'm not aware of any intention to change that.

What they've just recently announced is that they will start to manufacture one of their Mac lines in the US as well.


User currently onlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2108 times:

Well, I am thoroughly enjoying seeing my portfolio tank...  banghead  I know I was overweighted with Apple with which to begin, and I bought most of it low enough that I can see the stock drop a lot farther before it becomes a HUGE issue, but... this still hurts. I am glad I sold some shares at 700; I just wish I'd sold more back when it was in the 500-600 range. May be a long time, if ever, before it's back there. I am debating what to do with a large chunk of my shares now. I keep holding out hope that Apple will do something groundbreaking again, but all I read in the news is doom and gloom about Apple's future prospects... yet for some reason I don't man up and sell because I think, "oh, it'll go back up again."

[Edited 2013-04-24 12:40:39]


Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2403 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 18):
yet for some reason I don't man up and sell because I think, "oh, it'll go back up again."

That's what I thought back in 2001, when I experimented with shares.

I lost about 500 $.

It was Swissair.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1944 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2080 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
You can't expect double digit growth year after year after year. Scale catches up to you. We saw that when Microsoft plateaued in the late 90s - once you've gotten so big, your P&L is going to trend with the overall market (or segment)

Pretty much. You just can't climb at an increasing rate forever. Apple is maturing as a company. It will continue to make a lot money in the foreseeable future, but that doesn't mean it's an attractive investment.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
One thing that always makes me laugh is that while Apple represents everything that OWS and similar-minded people like to protest (all their manufacturing is outsourced to Asia, they keep most of their money offshore to avoid taxes, sell at high profit margins, huge management bonuses and salaries), everyone's cool with it because...

because...

Why?

I don't understand that either. Blind cult following would be my guess. It's kinda funny because I'm typing this right now on a MBP running Windows (which I find to be a far superior OS). I like the "quality" hardware of the Apple with the software of Microsoft. I didn't have one issue with that combo until . . . Just a month or so ago I had a sudden hard drive failure, and since I'm a student I had to quick get my old PC laptop for a class that evening. My MBP was only about 15 months old at the time, and I was pretty disappointed with a failure that I had never had on any PC I'd owned or used. So I get a new hard drive and try to set it up. Still doesn't work. What the . . .? So I do some more research, and it turns out it's not the drive itself, it's the hard drive cable. And I guess it's not uncommon problem. Pretty pathetic that a cheap cable disables you without warning. When you pay this much for a laptop, a premium over others because of the hardware features, you wonder what exactly you're paying for with such cheap cables are inside. It's obviously a cost cutting measure, contributing to those ridiculous margins. Even though I like this laptop, I just can't see myself buying another product from Apple. I'm paying for hype. That's not worth it for the consumer.


User currently onlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 20):

My fear is that more people figure out what you've figured out.

I have an (un)healthy amount of Apple stock, but I have never paid (nor will ever pay) for an Apple product (though, in the interest of disclosure, I have several Apple products, some of which I use very frequently, but they were gifted to me). I am a dyed-in-the-wool PC user. When I graduate (again and again) and I move off my parents' cell phone plan, I fully intend on getting an Android or Windows phone. Apple products (software and hardware) are just not that good in my eyes. Apple is a very, very inflexible organization that does a very good job at masking its many warts behind an air of being hip, trendy, and young (hence their ludicrous "I'm a Mac/I'm a PC" commercials years ago).



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlinevirginblue4 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 20):

Pretty clear that you're angry, so to justify it, you start bashing a company that is known high quality products and great after sales.

I highly doubt they are using cheap cables to improve their margins. Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?



The amazing tale of flight.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12543 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
With $144 Billion in cash Apple can address both.

But the point is that they now feel the need to, whereas before they didn't.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
You can't expect double digit growth year after year after year.

It's a lot easier when you are miles ahead of the competition, which is no longer the case.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2032 times:

I'm glad they aren't heading to an undisputed #1 position... I mean I'm not an Apple person at all but I'm glad they are there (along with their competitors) putting out new, innovative products. If they became so good that they put everyone out of business or marginalized, I doubt we'd have the rate of improvement on our technology like we see today


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2042 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
You can't expect double digit growth year after year after year.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
everyone's cool with it because...

because...

Why?

Because Apple delivers.

There are some exceptional people at Apple - Jonathan Ive is a good example - and thee people earn their money. All you have to do is look at the products and company performance to understand that.

As far as being cool, when products excite the targeted markets then you can call it cool. I call it selling well because of all the components (hardware and software) in the product.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 16):
Because Apple has left the geek / education business, and now caters the moron / fashion market.

Apple is doing well in education, especially with the iPad. A lot of the geeks will buy a mac and immediately move to Unix - which is what OS X is based on.

OS X and iOS are making some strong inroads in geeky areas, like medicine. OsriX is a pretty good example of that.

It's also being used in new area - like replacing airline pilot's big chart bags.

When 3 year old kids and 83 year old ladies (and everyone in between) can use an iPad with ease then I would discount your "moron" comment. Maybe that should be directed to those buying BBs and Win phones. -I

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 18):
yet for some reason I don't man up and sell because I think, "oh, it'll go back up again."

And it might.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 19):
It was Swissair.

Think of where you'd be today if it had been Apple.   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 23):
But the point is that they now feel the need to, whereas before they didn't.

I believe that at some point it was on the map. Looking at current cash positions, products in the pipeline, etc it's a pretty good time - especially when you look at how little borrowing will cost Apple and how much Apple will gain from the re-purchase.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):

I'm glad they aren't heading to an undisputed #1 position...

They are # 1 in some areas, like mobile phone profit margins, number of apps on the app store, app store sales, etc.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):
If they became so good that they put everyone out of business or marginalized, I doubt we'd have the rate of improvement on our technology like we see today



They are good enough to be number 1 in a lot of areas and all that does is get the competition waking up and improving their products. Remember that a lot of competitors (like Samsung and Moto) have a lot of money behind them and won't go out of business unless they really fall behind.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2034 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):

Maybe I should have been more clear but I meant #1 by such a wide margin that they basically kill everyone off and then start slacking off, if that makes sense.

Microsoft kinda did that in the late 90s and early 2000s, they did a great job but who knows where we'd be if they had a strong competitor on their heels. Just a thought



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2006 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
Because Apple delivers.

So does Exxon, and Exxon's profit margins are minuscule compared to Apple, Exxon employs far more people, particularly in the US, and delivers a product at an extraordinarily low price (when you discount what they have to pay for the crude and government taxes) which, if they were to stop delivery, people would be screaming. Apple produces cool toys (and yes, I have some of their toys too). Yet Exxon is the evil one

Research and development? Johnson & Johnson spends four times as much on R&D as Apple does, in spite of being much smaller financially. Apple's R&D is mainly centered around aesthetics and visual design. The actual technology is developed by other companies such as Intel or Foxconn.

I don't knock their products. They are really cool, and Steve Jobs was a visionary - particularly in the fields of aesthetics and visual design. But why are they so accepted by anti-business types when they are just as, or even more guilty of "predatory business practices" than anyone else?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19697 posts, RR: 58
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1978 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They pulled off hit after hit (iPod, iPhone, iPad) and there's no hint of another gangbuster emerging.

You speak as if these things all happened in rapid succession. The iPod was introduced in 2001, the iPhone in 2007, and the iPad in 2010.

Right now they are working on a number of projects, I am sure. And you know darned well that Apple is very tight-lipped about these things.


User currently offlinethunderboltdrgn From Sweden, joined Jan 2012, 626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1933 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):

Overall Apple is still showing the PC world how to do it.

Apple is a part of the PC-world as well since a Macintosh is a PC just
as much as a computer with Windows or Linux is.

Then add to that all the free editorial news advertising Apple and it products gets.

http://observer.com/2012/09/apples-f...-treat-product-launches-like-news/
http://www.advertisementjournal.com/...t-wide-scale-advertising-for-free/
http://translate.google.com/translat...pple-far-gratisreklam-for-miljoner
http://translate.google.com/translat...pple-far-gratisreklam-for-miljoner

When IP5 was released Apple got some 28 million USD worth of advertising in the form of
news articles in media in Sweden alone. Samsung didn't even get 10% of that when their S3 was launched.



Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12543 posts, RR: 25
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 29):
Then add to that all the free editorial news advertising Apple and it products gets.
Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 29):
Samsung didn't even get 10% of that when their S3 was launched.

This is not surprising. Apple has set the world on its head via innovation. The advances they've made in packaging, integration, aesthetic/visual design, software and other media distribution, etc. have been remarkable. They've changed the way a lot of people do an awful lot of things. A lot of that was amplified because they've been so far out in front that competition could not gain a foothold. Think of other mp3 players at the time the iPod was released, other phones at the time iPhone was released, etc.

The problem for Apple is their market valuation is based on that track record and it's next to impossible to keep that pace up. Many of us think they've hit the peak, and see some of their recent actions (buying back stock, introducing cheaper products) as evidence of that.

IBM were the masters of the mainframe era. DEC were the masters of the minicomputer era. M$/Intel were the masters of the desktop era. Apple has been masters of the mobile device era, but it seems that era is reaching its peak, IMHO.

I'm not saying everyone is going to throw their smartphones away tomorrow. What I'm saying is the mobile device is moving from its period of innovation to its period of maturity. Apple was the innovation leader, but now the game is moving to areas that others are stronger in. Apple has shown innovation by integrating many things built by others, but now the game is moving to improving those other things more so than pushing ahead by integration of functionality.

Put another way, the laptop I'm typing on today really isn't more innovative than the one I had 10 years ago in terms of functionality. It does all the same things I did ten years ago, it just does them faster and in a more visually appealing way. I'm sure getting to that point took a lot of innovation, but still it didn't change what I do with it much if at all.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1914 times:

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 29):
When IP5 was released Apple got some 28 million USD worth of advertising in the form of
news articles in media in Sweden alone. Samsung didn't even get 10% of that when their S3 was launched.

That absolutely pales relative to the massive amount of money Samsung pumps into PR and sales support (a high multiple of what Apple is spending). And yet Samsung still can't reach Apple where it really counts.

Apple leads multiple markets, Samsung is one of the followers. It is no surprise that market leaders receive a lot more attention in the media than the followers – even though much of that attention has always been negative.


User currently offlineVinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

Some comments here are pretty surprising (and markets too): There is only so much innovation once can do, and in a competitive market competitors at some point always catch up.

The beauty with apple is that they created 3 brand new markets. They have been trend setters and have become massively profitable because of that. People thought that they would remain on the top of the pyramid were pretty delusional in my opinion. At some point they were going to be attacked and rightly so!

Also Apple builds durable hardware: Whilst this attracts buyers, and warrants a premium, it also means that people don't go and buy their product every year or 2. One makes more profit selling twice a product for $400 than once $600 over the same time period.

I'm therefore not at all surprised. Innovation cannot be sustained forever. One can have a blockbuster product one day, then be relegated to the new normal! Look at Chobani, the Greek yogurt brand in the US. How long will it take for this brand to become a commodity?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 32):
Also Apple builds durable hardware

The do not. Apple shut down their last manufacturing plant (in Elk Grove CA), in 2004. They buy all their products from other maunufacturers (mostly in Asia) and stamp the Apple logo on it.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2153 posts, RR: 16
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1856 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 16):
Because Apple has left the geek / education business, and now caters the moron / fashion market.

Very true. A shame they left the high-quality market.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinevirginblue4 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):

Not true at all. Have you seen how well the iPad is doing in education? They've also introduced iTunes U and they've even created Macs ONLY for the education sector.

Also, a new Mac Pro is coming this year as as well.

I'm not sure if I am completely understanding what you are saying, but name a competitor with higher quality products than Apple?



The amazing tale of flight.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1841 times:

Quoting virginblue4 (Reply 35):
I'm not sure if I am completely understanding what you are saying, but name a competitor with higher quality products than Apple?

Generally speaking yes, their quality is pretty good, with one exception. I think their PC and laptop keyboards, while stylish, are utter crap.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2798 posts, RR: 10
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):

Generally speaking yes, their quality is pretty good, with one exception. I think their PC and laptop keyboards, while stylish, are utter crap.

What's wrong with their keyboards? If there's one thing to pick on, I've never liked the Apple mouse, from the new Mighty Mouse to the old ball mouse. It's always given me problems and I've always gone with Logitech instead.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
I think their PC and laptop keyboards, while stylish, are utter crap.

I have to say I love the keyboard and the magic mouse. It does get some getting used to but its easier IMHO than others I have used before.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3375 posts, RR: 9
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1823 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
So whats the future for Apple ? Have the glory days ended?

Probably not, but that level of innovation and growth isn't easy to sustain.

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Concerns among investors had caused Apple's share price to plummet.

It had lost around 40% of its stock market value since hitting an all-time high in September last year.

This is more of an issue with how the stock market operates than it is with Apple. Earlier this week there was a mini-crash because someone posted a bogus tweet about a bombing at the Whitehouse.

I'm not a trader but this clip below cannot be far off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvGWHbPtZ0

Quoting cmf (Reply 2):
9.5 BUSD and over 20% margin. Pretty damn good in my book.

You obviously aren't on Wall St., the shareholders were getting 20% and now want more of a return which is unsustainable, thus the sell off.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They find themselves having to cheapen product to hit lower price points instead of charging premium prices.

Big mistake IMO, keep the niche you have that Apple products are more reliable and stylish than competition. While I personally do not agree that is reality I'm not the one who is buying Apple stuff.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
You can't expect double digit growth year after year after year. Scale catches up to you. We saw that when Microsoft plateaued in the late 90s - once you've gotten so big, your P&L is going to trend with the overall market (or segment)

MS has been slow and steady since then and they are still there doing what they have always done.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
One thing that always makes me laugh is that while Apple represents everything that OWS and similar-minded people like to protest (all their manufacturing is outsourced to Asia, they keep most of their money offshore to avoid taxes, sell at high profit margins, huge management bonuses and salaries), everyone's cool with it because...

because...

Why?

Because they had this hippie looking CEO who looked like a laid back cool guy in Steve Jobs who was a brilliant marketer and no doubt a tech genius. However behind the scenes he was the Gordon Gekko of Silicon Valley.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1794 times:

Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 32):
One makes more profit selling twice a product for $400 than once $600 over the same time period.

It is more revenue. We have no idea if it is more or less profit. But in my experience I expect there to be more profit in one $600 computer than 2 x $400.

Never been able to understand peoples focus on revenue. As a single number it is worth nothing. If you still insist on comparing revenue numbers then a smaller number is generally better but everyone is pushing for high revenue. Profit, margin, units, other costs are the numbers that matter, forget revenue.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 39):
You obviously aren't on Wall St., the shareholders were getting 20% and now want more of a return which is unsustainable, thus the sell off.

I have been invited to stand on that stupid bell balcony twice. Stayed home both times.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1774 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
The do not. Apple shut down their last manufacturing plant (in Elk Grove CA), in 2004. They buy all their products from other maunufacturers (mostly in Asia) and stamp the Apple logo on it.

That is utter nonsense.

I'm not aware of a single product that actually matches your description.

They design and specify their products in Cupertino, then have assemblers in Asia execute the manufacturing according to their precise specs and schematics, particularly including loading firmware and other software on these products which are also developed in Cupertino.

You could just as well make the nonsensical claim that a letter you've printed out was actually conceived by your printer's manufacturer and you'd just sign it with your name. That would be just as false, and a pretty close analogy to Apple outsourcing the replication of their products.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
Generally speaking yes, their quality is pretty good, with one exception. I think their PC and laptop keyboards, while stylish, are utter crap.

First impressions can be deceptive.

They are actually excellent, but they have a somewhat unusual combination of short travel, light touch and very slim profile which one needs to get used to. The first few hours of using the keyboard I'm typing this on (the USB desktop version of their standard keyboard) my fingertips were actually hurting because I had still been used to hammering the keys with a lot more force and a lot more travel than the new keyboard actually required. Nowadays I type even faster than on the old conventional mechanical-typewriter-style keyboards and with less hand and wrist strain than ever before. It's been a big relief, and I'd never go back.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1741 times:

OMG! Stop the presses, suspend all flights, do not pass go till you collect 200!. The prima donnas of the business world will now cry and wine and try to "schnoor" a bailout from our government. I hope they are not falling for this. Everything has it's time and day nothing lives or lasts forever and such is the case with Apple. Not to sound cruel but deal with it and I hope y'all can turn your fortunes around and not at our expense thank you very much.


I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineVinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1713 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):


The do not. Apple shut down their last manufacturing plant (in Elk Grove CA), in 2004. They buy all their products from other maunufacturers (mostly in Asia) and stamp the Apple logo on it.

Durable as in long-lasting not as in sustainable

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
It is more revenue. We have no idea if it is more or less profit. But in my experience I expect there to be more profit in one $600 computer than 2 x $400.

Never been able to understand peoples focus on revenue. As a single number it is worth nothing. If you still insist on comparing revenue numbers then a smaller number is generally better but everyone is pushing for high revenue. Profit, margin, units, other costs are the numbers that matter, forget revenue.

I agree with you that revenue is not the best metric to assess profitability. On a per unit basis I agree obviously that $600 computer has a better profit margin. But volume can outweigh this in terms of pure total profit.

Anyway this is all very theoretical!

Fact is that the mobile phone industry is a weird one: In the developed world people are tied down to 2 year contracts in general, in the developing country people usually go for cheaper models. And once it is time to renew a contract people may choose not to buy the latest Iphone due to expense and opt for a cheaper model. What appears clear though is that the Iphone for example is not as outstanding as it once was. Whilst still one of the best, it is easier now to trade-off an Iphoen for a slightly cheaper phone without suffering too much in terms of missing features!


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 43):
Fact is that the mobile phone industry is a weird one: In the developed world people are tied down to 2 year contracts in general, in the developing country people usually go for cheaper models. And once it is time to renew a contract people may choose not to buy the latest Iphone due to expense and opt for a cheaper model. What appears clear though is that the Iphone for example is not as outstanding as it once was. Whilst still one of the best, it is easier now to trade-off an Iphoen for a slightly cheaper phone without suffering too much in terms of missing features!

What would be the point in that? I simply keep using my iPhone beyond the end of my contract until a new device is really attractive enough for me to buy a new one. I've used my previous one for over three years and I'll likely keep using the current one when my contract ends this year.

What's ending is the "need" to constantly buy new devices, since the existing ones have by now eliminated several previous limitations which I cared about, notably the quality of the camera and of the display. Data speeds are also generally sufficient for me, as is battery life.

With reliable and immediate software updates and even full-version upgrades I effectively get a new iPhone every year with no extra cost anyway. And as things stand, that is one of the main attractions of the Apple devices.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12543 posts, RR: 25
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1677 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
I simply keep using my iPhone beyond the end of my contract until a new device is really attractive enough for me to buy a new one.

Or keep insurance on the device and in the last month of the contract drive some high voltage across the charging pins and get a fresh one!  
Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
What's ending is the "need" to constantly buy new devices, since the existing ones have by now eliminated several previous limitations which I cared about, notably the quality of the camera and of the display. Data speeds are also generally sufficient for me, as is battery life.

Interesting that you are pointing out another challenge to Apple's profitability: the new products aren't sufficiently better than the predecessors to continue to drive sales...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
Or keep insurance on the device and in the last month of the contract drive some high voltage across the charging pins and get a fresh one!

That's not the way I operate. And since my Apple devices usually are still as good as new at that point, there's little point in that anyway.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
Interesting that you are pointing out another challenge to Apple's profitability: the new products aren't sufficiently better than the predecessors to continue to drive sales...

That is always the case when product categories start to mature. Nothing new, really. As long as they keep up their quality levels, profitability based on margins will likely remain high; What may recede is volume.


User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8269 posts, RR: 8
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1649 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They clearly don't roll out innovation at the rate they used to.

Some innovation is subtle - like the Fusion Drive, which you can even get on a Mac mini.

Other innovation is well hidden, like the work Apple does with their A series processors.

VIsible innovation, like the new iMac design, will be very desirable for a number of years and the innovation will be inside.

Don't look for a totally new product line every year. There may be an iWatch or a TV set in the future, but Apple takes their time when developing new products.

And take a look at the iOS Developers. They appear to be happy with the way Apple works - they have written 850,000 apps for the iOS platform and have been paid $9 Billion by Apple. For them revenue is a decision of price -v- volume.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
Microsoft kinda did that in the late 90s and early 2000s, they did a great job but who knows where we'd be if they had a strong competitor on their heels. Just a thought

MS rode on IBM's coat tails while engaging in illegal monopolistic activities. Without IBM there would have been no huge MS. All IBM had to do was select another OS for their PC and Gates could have gone back to University.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
Apple's R&D is mainly centered around aesthetics and visual design.

Start with the original Mac, where Apple did the engineering and software work required to bring a GUI to market. They paid Xerox to look Xerox's work. Xerox made more money off that Apple viewing deal then they did off of their GUI itself. (Remember that Xerox was selling pc's at that time.)

How many companies do both hardware development and OS development. BB has done it for phones, but even Samsung has to take Android for free.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
The actual technology is developed by other companies such as Intel or Foxconn.

Apple has their own engineers, even processor engineers. While they use off the shelf components they maintain control of engineering, especially in the iOS platform.

Looking at the Developers Conference (which sold out in 2 minutes) there will be 1,000 Apple Engineers available to work with Developers for the week.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
they are just as, or even more guilty of "predatory business practices" than anyone else?

Why? Because they developed products that were superior (for the consumer markets) than their competition? Or because they had better advertising? Or because they were able to tie new ideas, like selling apps through an app store?

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 29):
Apple is a part of the PC-world as well since a Macintosh is a PC just
as much as a computer with Windows or Linux is.

It's just that Apple has been more successful than the competition in this century?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
The problem for Apple is their market valuation is based on that track record and it's next to impossible to keep that pace up.

Smart money will look at the overall strength of Apple and be pretty happy. You don't have to put market share ahead of long term performance. The MBA of looking at a quarter or a year for a basis of success does their company no favors. Look where Apple will be going, with long term revenues from media sales, expansion in China (which cn be explosive) and the talents of their engineers & designers.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
DEC were the masters of the minicomputer era.

Remember the System 34, 36 and 38?

The System 38 was at the top of my list - a relational database built into the OS, plug & play, etc. IBM really screwed up in limiting the power of that computer.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
Apple was the innovation leader, but now the game is moving to areas that others are stronger in.

Like music downloads, app downloads?

Samsung is loosing one of their best sources of processor development insight as they loose Apple for processor production. (Actually, Samsung is seeing their biggest customer looking for ways to drop Samsung - real innovation on Samsung's part.)

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
It does all the same things I did ten years ago,

Basics will never change. Word procdessing, spreadsheets, internet surfing, emails, etc. Not a big deal that you can do those same things. I used Word and Excel on a Mac around 1985. The Mac was plug & play - with backpack. The current versions of both Word and Excel are basically what I used "back then". Well, now it's in color - BFD.

Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 32):
Innovation cannot be sustained forever.

We have been an innovative species since the caveman era - why should we stop now? Especially with very creative folks like Jonathan Ive around.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
in 2004. They buy all their products from other maunufacturers (mostly in Asia) and stamp the Apple logo on it.

Actually, Apple designs and engineers their products. They engineered the A Series chips use in their iOS products - they don't need to have the actual plants to make their designs, just like they don't need to make their own hard drives, or display glass.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Never been able to understand peoples focus on revenue.

Or market share.

Someone buys an iOS device and Apple can expect on-going revenues from their slice of the app sales, and the music sales. That's smart, but doesn't show up in "market share", or even initial gross margins.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
Yet Exxon is the evil one

SInce my Dad worked for an oil company for 43 years I really don't believe they are evil. Some times they do stupid things at the lower level, but taking full responsibility for problems can handle a lot of those issues.

Where a lot of these problems crop up a lot of times is where some hot shot manager is pushing to hold costs down. I believe that is the case with the BP spill.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
The actual technology is developed by other companies such as Intel or Foxconn.

Apple has a lot of engineers actually developing their technology. 1,000 will be at WWDC this year to work with developers. Which is why the conference sold out in 2 minutes - even though the price was $1,599.

One interesting side note today - the bidding for having coffee with Tim Cook has reached $560,000. Not too bad for those who believe he's on his way out.

https://www.charitybuzz.com/categories/70/catalog_items


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1617 times:

Maybe 30 years down the line if Apple goes belly up, legions of people will try to revive the name with little success and someone will even paint the name/logo on railroad cars and car carriers. Sound familiar like deja vu?


I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
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