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2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin  
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2579 posts, RR: 7
Posted (1 year 4 months 7 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/art...ies-after-only-praying-4455524.php

More religious nonsense, but sadly a SECOND child died to satisfy their twisted beliefs.

Interesting quote from the lawyer:

"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."

I think I'd disagree quite strongly that they were "very loving, nurturing parents."

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1355 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 2551 times:

Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):

"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."

Change "nobody" to "everybody" and we have a winner.

Better parents than these morons lose their kids all the time. Not seeing why they should be able to hide their abuse behind god...


That judge is right in pointing out that they're a danger to their children more than society. Still though, jail time's probably in order, and lots of it.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7951 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 2537 times:



What do they need a lawyer for? Wouldn't saying some prayers be enough to get them out of the trouble?

Poor kid(s).



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21556 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):
"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday.


You could maybe make somewhat of a case that they were loving. But you want me to believe that they were nurturing? Hell no.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 4 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):
More religious nonsense, but sadly a SECOND child died to satisfy their twisted beliefs.

They were on probation for criminal child neglect and had a second child and not ONE social worker checked on the child? By eight months there should have been four visits to the doctor (one weight check, one 2mo check, one 4mo check, and one 6mo check) and possibly five visits if there was a newborn visit. There should have been three rounds of vaccines. NOBODY checked to see that they were being done?

They should have been in prison the first time for negligent homicide. One does not allow a murderer out into society, even if the only potential victims are their own children.

Alternatively, this is where I favor mandatory sterilization. "You may either spend your lives in jail, or each of you undergoes permanent sterilization and surrenders your remaining children." I prefer option (2). Far cheaper.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6177 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 2468 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
They were on probation for criminal child neglect and had a second child and not ONE social worker

A good friend of mine works at CPS in Houston. The stories she tells me would probably incense you, although you´ve probably heard similar.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Alternatively, this is where I favor mandatory sterilization. "You may either spend your lives in jail, or each of you undergoes permanent sterilization and surrenders your remaining children." I prefer option (2). Far cheaper.

Unfortunately that is just as unethical and immoral as what these "parents" did.



MGGS
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7951 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
By eight months there should have been four visits to the doctor (one weight check, one 2mo check, one 4mo check, and one 6mo check) and possibly five visits if there was a newborn visit. There should have been three rounds of vaccines.

Perhaps they did, and since their child wasn't ill at that time they might have been thinking that seeing a doc wouldn't be a 'sin'.

On a side note: Are those check-ups mandatory in the U.S. or just in some states?
I ask because I once stumbled over a blog of a young American couple living in Hannover, Germany. Their daughter was born here, and in one blog entry the mother expressed her surprise to see a social worker or medical assistant paying them an unannounced visit after they missed a mandatory health check-up for their kid and ignored a reminder or two as well.

Edit: Oh wait ... there are still the vaccines of course ...

[Edited 2013-04-23 21:15:32]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21556 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Unfortunately that is just as unethical and immoral as what these "parents" did.

How else do you make sure they don't have children again? The evidence that they're not fit to be parents seems pretty clear.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6177 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 2425 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
How else do you make sure they don't have children again?

You pretty much can´t forbid people to have children. That´s just barbaric. And besides, you open a can of worms with questions like where does the sterilization stops? What criteria should be used?, etc. do bad genes count too? What if the parents carry the "violence" gene for example?

I´m not defending the parents. Those children should have been taken away. I´m just saying we are not back in the times where you sterilize people for whatever criteria the current society thinking is "fair".



MGGS
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7951 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
You pretty much can´t forbid people to have children. That´s just barbaric. And besides, you open a can of worms with questions like where does the sterilization stops?

  
Define "fit to be parents".

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
Those children should have been taken away.

Monitored, not taken away - at least not when they don't need a doc urgently. I am sure they are indeed loving parents, they "just" need to learn that it is not a sin to see a doc.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20499 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Gosh, this couple has seven other children, all now in foster care. Not only do I not understand avoiding life-saving measures when a child is obviously in crisis, I also don't understand the need for such large families in this day and age.

This is a tragic and disturbing story. I certainly hope there aren't any plans to return this couple's other children to them at any time.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21556 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
You pretty much can´t forbid people to have children. That´s just barbaric.

What's barbaric is letting a child die because you refused to give it medical care.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
And besides, you open a can of worms with questions like where does the sterilization stops?

If you let a child die through neglect, then I'd say you're a strong candidate for sterilization.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
What criteria should be used?, etc. do bad genes count too? What if the parents carry the "violence" gene for example?

No, and no. People would have to prove themselves to be egregiously bad parents first (and I think denying a child medical care counts). I have no interest in trying to proactively prevent problems - lots of dragons down that road.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 9):
I am sure they are indeed loving parents, they "just" need to learn that it is not a sin to see a doc.

They had a chance to do that after the first time. If that didn't do it, I have a hard time believing they'll ever get the message.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13547 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 2391 times:
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Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):
More religious nonsense, but sadly a SECOND child died to satisfy their twisted beliefs.

Religious zealots who think God will do everything without any outside intervention; baffling. Reminds me of a monologue from "The West Wing" :

You know, you remind me of the man that lived by the river. He heard a radio report that the river was going to rush up and flood the town. And that all the residents should evacuate their homes. But the man said, “I’m religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me.” The waters rose up. A guy in a row boat came along and he shouted, “Hey, hey you! You in there. The town is flooding. Let me take you to safety.” But the man shouted back, “I’m religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me.” A helicopter was hovering overhead. And a guy with a megaphone shouted, “Hey you, you down there.
The town is flooding. Let me drop this ladder and I’ll take you to safety.” But the man shouted back that he was religious, that he prayed, that God loved him and that God will take him to safety. Well... the man drowned. And standing at the gates of St. Peter, he demanded an audience with God. “Lord,” he said, “I’m a religious man, I pray. I thought you loved me. Why did this happen?”

God said, “I sent you a radio report, a helicopter, and a guy in a rowboat. What the hell are you doing here?”


Someone needs to staple this to these morons' foreheads with "GOD SENT YOU LEGAL PROBATION FROM YOUR LAST SERIOUS ERROR, THE ABILITY TO SEE DOCTORS, AND THE ABILITY TO GET MEDICATION" in red Sharpie on the front.

I want government intervention as a last resort, but we're THERE at this point if you ask me. As a parent, I hope the state intervenes and rescues the remaining children from these people before their negligence costs another innocent child their life.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7951 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 hour ago) and read 2341 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
, I also don't understand the need for such large families in this day and age.

According to them, contraceptives are probably a 'sin', too.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
They had a chance to do that after the first time. If that didn't do it, I have a hard time believing they'll ever get the message.

Yes, but "not getting the message" doesn't justify measures like sterilization. Just like repeated stealing doesn't justify mandated amputation.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21556 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Just like repeated stealing doesn't justify mandated amputation.

Those are two very different things.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2218 times:

Well in France at least even voluntary sterilization is frowned upon, few doctors will do it, and never to a woman who hasn't had several children already.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4574 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2172 times:

These parents may be religious, but I see Darwinism and Evolution hard at work.


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

Pathetic beyond all belief.
Let me try their logic here....
if Medication is a sin, but also killing someone being a sin, wouldn't letting someone die from their illness be a sin as well because you are killing them by neglecting the obvious? ...

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
These parents may be religious, but I see Darwinism and Evolution hard at work.

for this, you get this:



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Unfortunately that is just as unethical and immoral as what these "parents" did.

No it is not. Just because the Nazis did something does not make it bad.

I believe that there are a few rare cases in which mandatory involuntary sterilization should be done and this is one of them. They continue to be a danger to any and all children they have.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6177 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2034 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
No it is not. Just because the Nazis did something does not make it bad.

Yes it is.

And I was not talking about the Nazis, but since you are bringing it up, yes, sure, taht one too. But that is only one more reason why it is morally, and ethically wrong.

Read my reply 8.



MGGS
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5391 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
not ONE social worker checked on the child

Doc is right, more people or processes failed here than the parents.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Alternatively, this is where I favor mandatory sterilization.

Yup.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Unfortunately that is just as unethical and immoral as what these "parents" did.

No. What is unethical and immoral is allowing folks who are incapable of caring for children to have children. Unfortunately, we as a society, reward this behavior.

Quite simply, in this case (and others like it) a choice should be given: if you want to walk freely among the people you will submit to chemical and/or physical sterilization. You don't want to be sterile, than you get to spend time in prison for the crime of allowing your child(ren) to die when normal, routine treatment was available.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7873 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1994 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
No it is not. Just because the Nazis did something does not make it bad.

Yes it is.

Nazis ate sausages too... does that make eating sausages bad? Ridiculous example but I still think it illustrates a point. Nazis had stricter gun control, are you against that too now?

Not sure where I stand on mandatory sterilization, but what Doc is saying isn't mandatory, it's jail time OR sterilization... they could keep their reproductiveness and choose jail



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):

These parents may be religious, but I see Darwinism and Evolution hard at work.


There isn't enough science in the universe to wash the stupid off of these people!

But in case it's an issue of upbringing vice genetics I'm glad their surviving kids will get a chance to grow up healthy with other families.

[Edited 2013-04-25 03:38:25]

User currently onlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1607 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Nazis ate sausages too

And they invented the Autobahn, I f--ing love the Autobahn...I hate Nazis though.



Live From Amsterdam!
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