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George W. Bush Library Dedication  
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

The George W. Bush Presidential Library and Museum opens in Dallas today.

http://www.georgewbushlibrary.smu.edu/

The above link is safe to click on, one of the featured videos on the home page is currently 'Barney & Miss Beazley's Spring Garden Tour'. I didn't get any further, so I don't know if that was indicative of the rest of the site or not.

Anyone here invited to the opening? I understand that President Obama, the First Lady, and all of our living former and ex-presidents will be in attendance.

[Edited 2013-04-25 08:24:26]


International Homo of Mystery
89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3629 times:
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Is there a section dedicated to the WMDs he found in Iraq?


Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

^^
Wow only took one post.  

Anyway, I am watching. Always interesting seeing the other presidents talk about one which did not share party lines. For the most part I do think Clinton and Obama respect Bush for the sole reason of the job he held and what a difficult job it is. It is already happening though, Bush 43 legacy is getting better and will continue to be seen in a better light as the years go by.

Good speech by W.

[Edited 2013-04-25 09:12:26]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1559 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

Quoting Arrow (Reply 1):
Is there a section dedicated to the WMDs he found in Iraq?

Well technically, since they are calling a pressure cooker with some fireworks in it a WMD, I'd venture to say we did find some there.

That said, as unpopular as W may be, I would say that having hit at a cookout with some beers would probably be a mighty fun time. He seems like, politics aside, a nice guy

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Well technically, since they are calling a pressure cooker with some fireworks in it a WMD, I'd venture to say we did find some there.

Anyone who wants to go down that route will also have to then justify the 'Mission Accomplished' speech given 10 years ago next week vs. the state of affairs in Iraq over the past decade. Especially since it took a later 'surge' and a subsequent president to clean things up in order to bring our troops home.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

What book does it have?
Is it a coloring book?
Or is it a comic book?
GWB: Worst. President. Ever.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

The one thing it will be missing is the presidential limo. Clinton was the last president to get one of the vehicles for his library.

All future limos from Bush onward will be destroyed by the Secret Service to protect their classified armor technology.

Here is a pic of the Clinton limo at his library:




short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3481 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
GWB: Worst. President. Ever.

Not unless we lost Jimmy Carter somewhere.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
All future limos from Bush onward will be destroyed by the Secret Service to protect their classified armor technology.

They aren't that interesting anyway beyond the actual technology which they can't show us anyway. Looks and stylewise, they're just trucks that took a long bath in the parts bin.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRedd From Poland, joined Jan 2013, 100 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3465 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
He seems like, politics aside, a nice guy

Sure, if you don't also count the hundreds of thousands of people killed, tortured and 4.5 million people in Iraq alone displaced from their homes and living as refugees as a direct result of his 'wars on terror'

I personally would like to see the man jailed for life.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
What book does it have?
Is it a coloring book?

I don't think old George could stay within the lines let alone read. The man can barely speak English.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
GWB: Worst. President. Ever.

  


User currently offlineklm672 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2460 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

..and when tries to read, the book is upside down!


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3070 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3429 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
GWB: Worst. President. Ever.


But yet,Obama has carried over many of Bush's policies.

Immigration,Patriot Act,Gitmo,Bush taxes,War(s),how many times has Obama promised to end it?Most of these issues was on Obama 2008 opposition,blame Bush campaign.They are alive and well today.

So,does is it come down to whose a Republican and a Democrat issue? I wonder. Because Bill Clinton still has the welcome mat with gays after he wrote or endorsed DADT and DOMA. Double standard?

Bush is not the worse after what Obama has done.And now,if one wishes, should blame Obama who has been given a free ride with the media. And I find it very hard to believe that ultra liberals can police themselves and after media's torture of Bush of those SAME issues in which Obama carried over.Some was warranted,some not,like Katrina.

Congrats to the opening of the Bush library.And I do thank Obama for joining in the opening ceremonies which makes this nation great.And yes,I would say congrats to Obama when he opens his.

[Edited 2013-04-25 12:44:53]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

See I was right he does have reading difficulties, one ready does wonder if he's ever been inside a library?



User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 10):
But yet,Obama has carried over many of Bush's policies.

Immigration,Patriot Act,Gitmo,Bush taxes,War(s),how many times has Obama promised to end it?

It's fair to say neither GWB or BHO got all of what they wanted through Congress, but clearly there are things Obama would change if he could get them through Congress, many of them are things you've listed, and all are things started by GWB.

PS: You forgot to credit Bush for creating TSA and DHS.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 10):
Bush is not the worse after what Obama has done

Do you mean continuing the Bush bailouts perchance? Otherwise, what are you on about? ACA? Time will tell on that one, and if that's the worst thing he did, it's minor compared to the trillions of dollars and thousands of lives GWB wasted in Iraq.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 10):
And now,if one wishes, should blame Obama who has been given a free ride with the media.

Free ride? Did you see the Benghazi coverage? Compared to that, GWB got a free ride on Iraq, given the magnitude of the actual issues.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3070 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 11):
See I was right he does have reading difficulties, one ready does wonder if he's ever been inside a library?

(LOL)Bush answered that today.No.He avoided them when he was younger.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
GWB: Worst. President. Ever.

Not unless we lost Jimmy Carter somewhere.

I will agree somewhat with that,but give Carter his dues.He's certainly is one the best post-POTUS ever.And very few former POTUS would engage in such human extension activities as he has.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 2):
Always interesting seeing the other presidents talk about one which did not share party lines.

Agreed. It was nice to see them put politics aside for once and just show some respect/admiration for their fellow "fraternity" member. And it made for quite a nice photo op - not too often you get all the living US Presidents together in one spot.
http://imageshack.us/a/img841/5936/31622359apobamabushlibr.jpg

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 11):
See I was right he does have reading difficulties, one ready does wonder if he's ever been inside a library?
"There was a time in my life when I wasn't likely to be found at a library, much less found one," Bush quipped, before thanking his predecessors and successor for the "kind words" and the "examples you set."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...honor-president-bush-dedicate-his/



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3325 times:

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 14):
And it made for quite a nice photo op - not too often you get all the living US Presidents together in one spot.

Nice indeed. In retrospect I wonder if GHWB wishes he didn't go with the hot pink socks? I imagine chances are good he doesn't give a damn...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
In retrospect I wonder if GHWB wishes he didn't go with the hot pink socks?

Apparently, this is becoming one of his trademarks. His granddaughter even tweeted a photo of granddad's socks today (pink with polka dots!), and raved that he "loves a good sock!"  Wow!




International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Far too many, including myself, here and elsewhere have given plenty of criticism of GWB for many years. I am not going to add more to this discussion here. Suffice to say, today's dedication was a happy fest, with only minor touching of areas of legitimate critical commentary.

At the heart of the Presidential Libraries are the documents and other records of their respective Administrations, which are owned by the public and will be accessible to the public. Far too many records are inaccessible for anywhere from a few years to forever as involve legitimate security and personal privacy needs but far too many for political reasons. I do hope investigative reporters, journalists, historians will search thoroughly the GWB Library records to get more information as to his decisions and policies, the truth behind them, who he met with, their influences.

I would love future Presidential records be in a single place, where all former President or their families cannot control records to put the best spin on them.


User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

Quoiting alberchico (Rep 6): "All future limos from Bush onward will be destroyed by the Secret Service to protect their classified armor technology." Maybe so...wouldn't argue.

But for those even remotely interested, when I was at Ford Styling I was privey to a few operations that we were envolved in with a pair of presidential Lincolns that envolved armour "technology". The door's exterior sheet metal was not. A supplier shipped treated steel slabs of (maybe 1/2', maybe 3/4", maybe a bit thicker...don't remember) rolled to a slight crown, and our template (pattern) makers and metal workers surfaced these slabs to precisely replicate the styling countours of the Lincoln body side. The interior door sheet metal stampings were of course reman'd w/ upgraded structure thickness via more plate and these pieces were welded together as an assembly. After class-A metal finishing and paint, they looked exactly like the original production parts (except, of course, they were dimensionally different for the stretch wheelbase and modified lock and hinge pillars plus you needed a team of four or so big men to handle each for install and adjust).

I do not know about the fenders and rear quarter panels. I am thinking the exterior pieces may have been production sheet metal with serious internal reinfs, but don't remember. But, anyhoo, that was the armor "technology" back then. All best...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

To those you think W is such a dumb guy I can guarantee he is probably more intelligent than 99 out of 100 people on Anet.
http://keithhennessey.com/2013/04/24/smarter/



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 22):

Fun read. Thanks for posting that.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3868 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3214 times:

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 14):
Agreed. It was nice to see them put politics aside for once and just show some respect/admiration for their fellow "fraternity" member.

Here's another picture with the five presidents and a future president.

http://media.pennlive.com/midstate_impact/photo/bush-library-62c420f89ba148b1.jpg



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 25):
Here's another picture with the five presidents and a future president.

You are talking about the back of Jeb Bush's head right? 



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3868 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
You are talking about the back of Jeb Bush's head right? 

Nope, I'm talking about Jeb's son, George P. Bush.  



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 706 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

i hadn't realized the amount of world dignitaries in attendence.

Anyway , I was not particularly a fan of his, but he is no longer in office and this is an occasion afforded each former President. Let him have his day and future whatever it may bring. He loved his country and was elected to two terms.


User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3238 times:

Quoting westjet747 (Reply 18):
Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
All future limos from Bush onward will be destroyed by the Secret Service to protect their classified armor technology.

How would someone gather any of that classified technology just by looking at it?   

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.boston.com/cars/news/arti...6/cadillac_testing_new_obama_limo/

I found this quote fascinating:

"In the same spirit, the Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock, Ark., was not given the keys to the 42d president's 1993 Cadillac Fleetwood, which is displayed there.

"We can dust the outside of the car, but if we needed to get inside it, we would have to contact the regional Secret Service office," Christine Mouw, the library curator, said in an interview. "We've had requests from people to exhibit it with the doors open, but we're told we can't do it for security reasons, which is logical."

That is amazing. Even the museum curators are not trusted with access to the car.

Not to drag the thread off topic, but several years ago a mockup of this car was put up for auction and this video gives you a glimpse of the interior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_UQdixHLCY

http://www.messengerpuppet.com/2008/...4/indulge-your-inner-megalomaniac/

[Edited 2013-04-25 20:19:08]


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

Why are they all looking down ? And why a bullet proof glass only on the side ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3235 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 26):
Why are they all looking down ?

I didn't see the whole ceremony, but it looks like some type of prayer or moment of silence going on, since the audience have their heads bowed as well.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 26):
And why a bullet proof glass only on the side ?

That's the side Obama's on.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineipodguy7 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

I am honored to be a student at SMU where the new library is, and was honored to go to the opening. Politics aside, it was an incredible experience and one that I will never forgot. Seeing all 5 living presidents, and more than 20 former heads of foreign states all on my college's campus was unbelievable.


AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/AC/FI/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 2):
For the most part I do think Clinton and Obama respect Bush for the sole reason of the job he held and what a difficult job it is.

Unlike the "patriots" at FOX and AM radio and tea people who assure the American people that Obama and Clinton both hate America.

BTW, the deficit didn't grow much under Bush II because he kept the cost of his two wars OFF THE BOOKS!! Obama put that spending on the books and showed us how much Bush II spent and Obama is the offender? Love the troops until you get the bill, I guess.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Not unless we lost Jimmy Carter somewhere.

How dare he try to get us off foreign oil! That jerk! He should have just kept us addicted to oil. He saw a problem and tried to fix it. The nerve!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10751 posts, RR: 9
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
What book does it have?
Is it a coloring book?
Or is it a comic book?

His librarian is known to have been briefed to follow this link:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...url=node%3D4&field-keywords=cowboy


[/quote]GWB: Worst. President. Ever.[/quote]
Sure. Disputed only by those who profited during his rule and who are still not able to use their brains.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Not unless we lost Jimmy Carter somewhere.

Carter certainly wasnt very good at his job, but he didnt wage unjust wars or ruined the countries finances for decades so he´s only among the runners-up to Bush.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 28):
I am honored to be a student at SMU where the new library is

I hope your grandma got you a gold Trans Am.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
How dare he try to get us off foreign oil!

Damn right. It wasn't being paid for out of Jimmy Carter's bank accounts.

He also presided over a country with a poor economy and the Iranian hostage crisis was a huge stain on his presidency. The man's lucky he has had three decades and change to salvage his legacy, and he is much better as a sort of folksy guy next door to Americans than as a politician.

Quoting na (Reply 30):
Carter certainly wasnt very good at his job, but he didnt wage unjust wars or ruined the countries finances for decades so he´s only among the runners-up to Bush.

Actually, that would make him the runner up to Lyndon Johnson.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
he is much better as a sort of folksy guy next door to Americans than as a politician.

I know that's what people think about Bush II but what about Carter?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
He also presided over a country with a poor economy and the Iranian hostage crisis

What does a president have to do with what private corporations do? What does a president have to do with revolution in a foreign land? Just because he didn't bomb the snot out of them does not make him a bad president. Violence is not the answer to everything.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6330 posts, RR: 9
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3074 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
GWB: Worst. President. Ever.

I trust you've spoken to the many, many presidential scholars, in addition to your own research on each and every president and his policies and actions, to make that informed statement, correct?

I'm a huge history buff. I'm not a huge GWB fan. But I simply am not educated enough to make the statement that he was the worst president ever. In my lifetime (since 1983)? Sure, probably, maybe. But ever? That's awfully tough to declare.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 25):
That is amazing. Even the museum curators are not trusted with access to the car.

Museum curators are historians, not security professionals. In the security realm, if there's no need to trust someone, why would you do it?

Quoting sw733 (Reply 33):
I trust you've spoken to the many, many presidential scholars, in addition to your own research on each and every president and his policies and actions, to make that informed statement, correct?

Of course, just like every other a.net poster, I've consulted with countless experts in their fields before posting.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 43
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
To those you think W is such a dumb guy I can guarantee he is probably more intelligent than 99 out of 100 people on Anet.

And yet, he made some of the worst policy decisions in the last decades. Intelligence is worth nothing if you're unwilling to question your own conclusions.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10751 posts, RR: 9
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3050 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
To those you think W is such a dumb guy I can guarantee he is probably more intelligent than 99 out of 100 people on Anet.

So what, the world of intelligent men making horrendous mistakes.

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
And yet, he made some of the worst policy decisions in the last decades. Intelligence is worth nothing if you're unwilling to question your own conclusions.

  
... and if you trust warmongering advisors like Rumsney.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
To those you think W is such a dumb guy I can guarantee he is probably more intelligent than 99 out of 100 people on Anet.
http://keithhennessey.com/2013/04/24/smarter/

Hmmmmmm... Well, I read the article (which, let's be honest, is really an editorial at best), and I didn't see anything there that would support this claim.

I've met three people who've met W (yeah, I know, second hand info & all), and while it is true that he's probably not as dumb as we think (or want to I should say), none saw anything like what this man claims.

While it is true that GWB the drooling idiot is much more trope than fact, making claims that are deliberately opposite suggest something more in line with compensation than verifiable basis and seems defensive at best. Simply put, I get the feeling Keith there is trying to sell a book.

On a lighter note, it did remind me of a Saturday Night Live skit about Reagan from years ago...

Quoting sw733 (Reply 33):

I'm a huge history buff. I'm not a huge GWB fan. But I simply am not educated enough to make the statement that he was the worst president ever. In my lifetime (since 1983)? Sure, probably, maybe. But ever? That's awfully tough to declare.

I think I agree. Bush 43 is a perfect example of archetypical GOP politician, stumbling through disastrous and unpopular decisions while using base fear and appeals to primal emotions to stay in office.

But worst President ever? I guess we've forgotten about Jackson. Or Johnson (the 2nd). It's really too soon to say where GWB will fall historically, but perceptions do matter over the long run, even if they omit relevant information. Who remembers that it was Nixon who started the EPA, Presided over the Lunar Landings and got us out of Viet Nam?

[Edited 2013-04-26 11:03:54]


Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2986 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
I know that's what people think about Bush II but what about Carter?

He's the old fashioned, kindly but slightly senile guy who tells stories on his porch, which he's much better at than governing. Jimmy does fine building houses, but was woefully inadequate as a politician.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
What does a president have to do with what private corporations do?

You mean besides giving tax credits to customers who buy their products and occasionally buying one?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
What does a president have to do with revolution in a foreign land?

When fifty two of your citizens are being held, it matters.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
Just because he didn't bomb the snot out of them does not make him a bad president. Violence is not the answer to everything.

This is exactly the sort of whitewashing and historical sanitizing that Carter has benefited from.

Carter tried the military option and it was a miserable failure. The debacle of Operation Eagle Claw was caused largely by a disorganized military that was neglected by the Ford and Carter administrations in the wake of the Vietnam war that was woefully inadequate.

But then the 1980s happened, and everybody mostly forgot how much the 1970s sucked. The military got reorganized and re-equipped and the result was the curb stompings dished out in Panama and Iraq. Even many of the things that enabled the Bin Laden raid to be a success can be traced back to Carter's blunder in the Iranian desert.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 37):
Or Johnson (the 2nd).

Only civil rights keeps him from falling below Jimmy Carter, especially considering that many of the current budget problems can be traced to his administration.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Even many of the things that enabled the Bin Laden raid to be a success can be traced back to Carter's blunder in the Iranian desert.

So even though Carter blundered, it was actually a good thing, because it caused us to get our act together, if I'm reading what you wrote correctly. That's a spectacular endorsement of Carter I've not read anywhere else. Well done you for pulling that one off.   



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 40):
So even though Carter blundered, it was actually a good thing, because it caused us to get our act together, if I'm reading what you wrote correctly

In a roundabout way, yes. The military got their act together and reorganized and the country got their act together and elected Ronald Reagan.

But it shouldn't have taken an explosion in the desert to get leaders to wake up. People love to point out that deficits rose under Reagan, which is absolutely true, but a lot of that was basically necessary spending that was deferred by previous administrations as the military tried to whip itself into shape during the 1980s.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2972 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
the country got their act together and elected Ronald Reagan.

Well remember, I lived through that era, and it was somewhat different than that. In 1976 a Republican was simply unelectable, no matter how much we appreciated what Ford did. Even my dad, who'd voted for Goldwater in '64, voted for Carter in '76.

Carter just wasn't capable of meeting the huge expectations thrust upon his shoulders, and bumbled badly at times. The collective disappointment gave Reagan a lot support he wouldn't have garnered if a more capable Democrat had won in '76, I'm convinced of it. Incumbents have a natural edge. That doesn't say Reagan wouldn't have won in '80—but part of why he had a 90% pickup in the Electoral College in that vote was due to Anderson in the race, a figure who most likely wouldn't have made a difference, or even run, if Carter hadn't won in '76.

It happened again in '92 with Perot upsetting a bumbling Bush 41, allowing Clinton to win.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2923 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 42):
Carter just wasn't capable of meeting the huge expectations thrust upon his shoulders, and bumbled badly at times.

Carter's biggest mistake was thinking he could come to Washington, sweep out the career politicians and tell the Democrats in Congress how to vote on his priorities. Most of his inner circle in the White House were not very experienced in the way Washington works.

He had more trouble with Tip O'Neill than anyone else.

George Bush had similar problems when he tried to bring up immigration reform and many other issues. His party would not support him - but he was smart enough to not make it a public fight.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 43):
Carter's biggest mistake was thinking he could come to Washington, sweep out the career politicians and tell the Democrats in Congress how to vote on his priorities.

I looked this up, because I remembered it a bit differently. Carter did sweep into Washington "like a prick" in O'Neill's words, but eventually they made a formidable team.

PBS Biography: Carter - O'Neill

Quote:
Over time, Carter did learn to prioritize, and with O'Neill's help, built a solid legislative record. The best example is Carter's energy policy, which O'Neill brilliantly shepherded through Congress using every political technique in his considerable repertoire.

But the two couldn't have been further apart in almost every other way.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2831 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
When fifty two of your citizens are being held, it matters.

Funny how people forget they were all released as Reagan was being sworn in....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Jimmy does fine building houses, but was woefully inadequate as a politician.

Because his family does not have money. Carter is a diplomat. Not a businessman. You can not be a businessman and be president. Looking out for only corporations is no way to run a country. Look at the disaster left by Bush II policies.

I particularly enjoyed the part where they had to clear native Texas prairie to plant native Texas prairie. Right wing minds hard at work....



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
Funny how people forget they were all released as Reagan was being sworn in....

After one bungled rescue attempt, over a year in captivity, and a lost election. Great job, Jimmy!

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
Because his family does not have money.

Oh yeah, Carter makes tons on Habitat for Humanity.  
Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
Carter is a diplomat. Not a businessman.

Reagan, Clinton, and Obama were not businessmen either and yet their presidencies were all far more successful than Carter's.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
I particularly enjoyed the part where they had to clear native Texas prairie to plant native Texas prairie. Right wing minds hard at work....

 



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 43):
Carter's biggest mistake was thinking he could come to Washington, sweep out the career politicians and tell the Democrats in Congress how to vote on his priorities. Most of his inner circle in the White House were not very experienced in the way Washington works.

Indeed such promises were what he campaigned on. The country was sick of the cronyism of Tricky Dickie's regime. As you point out, though, he didn't get a whole new Congress to work with.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
After one bungled rescue attempt, over a year in captivity, and a lost election. Great job, Jimmy!

I'm not sure how you can really blame Carter for the bungled rescue attempt. It was a mission that the military could have executed successfully. I know many give Carter crap for cutting back the military, but that should have been expected post-Vietnam, and you really can't make the case that they didn't have the resources to execute that particular mission given the available technology of the time. I haven't seen any evidence of Carter forcing the military to execute the mission nor of any significant push back by the military saying the mission should not be executed. The failure really was due to bad luck: a sandstorm at the refueling site. I'm sure the same people would complain if Carter didn't try to use the full capabilities of the military.

What can be said is the military didn't train a lot for this exact scenario. Clearly they had experience rescuing downed airmen in hostile territory, but they didn't train for long range extraction of prisoners in hostile territory. One outcome of all of this is that the military does train for such missions, and has developed special forces who have better equipment to execute such missions. The hit on Osama Bin Laden was a clear case of using such assets. The mission profile wasn't that different than the one in Iran decades earlier, the main difference was the military had developed better training and equipment to execute the mission.

One aside is that the Boston emergency responders credit drills based on the Mumbai massacre as a training scenario for them being prepared to handle the casualties that resulted from the bomb blast at the Marathon finish line.

Of course Carter would have claimed credit if it had worked and thus gets to absorb blame when it did not, but I think it's hard to make the case that he shouldn't have tried.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
After one bungled rescue attempt, over a year in captivity, and a lost election.

So he tried and he is the worst ever? Why is Bush II so great when he did nothing to capture bin Laden? In fact, his daddy had the bin Laden family flown out of the United States on the morning of Sept. 11. And Bush II is great?

Oh, wait... I forgot: Any elected official with a (D) behind their name is the worst ever and should always be excluded from any history.

As far as clearing Texas prairie to plant Texas prairie:
http://www.weather.com/news/science/...george-bush-library-opens-20130425



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 47):
I know many give Carter crap for cutting back the military, but that should have been expected post-Vietnam, and you really can't make the case that they didn't have the resources to execute that particular mission given the available technology of the time.

That's exactly what you can blame Carter for. The military fell into a state of disrepair after Vietnam and Carter did nothing about it, and the failure of the rescue attempt and the sloppy invasion of Grenada in 1983 were direct results.

It shouldn't have taken eight dead Americans to get leaders to decide that maybe teaching helicopter pilots to fly near the ground after dark would be a good idea. The post Vietnam administrations neglected the military and as a result they lacked the capabilities they needed, and one can only hope that current leaders have learned the lesson.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2731 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
That's exactly what you can blame Carter for. The military fell into a state of disrepair after Vietnam and Carter did nothing about it, and the failure of the rescue attempt and the sloppy invasion of Grenada in 1983 were direct results.

It's a perception that's just not borne out in reality.

For instance:



You can see the down-tick in Tricky Dickie's era being reversed in Carter's era.

The military had plenty of resources (a) in general and (b) to complete this particular mission.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5741 posts, RR: 32
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):


The George W. Bush Presidential Library and Museum opens in Dallas today.

George who?


User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2709 times:

This country would be much better off if George W. Bush wasn't elected, but it isn't appropriate to bring it up during the dedication of his presidential library. He did his job as best as he could, and none of us will ever be privy to some of the facts he knew to make the decisions he did.


A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10751 posts, RR: 9
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 51):
George who?

George W(armonger) Bush.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 52):
This country would be much better off if George W. Bush wasn't elected

Not only the US, the world would be better off. There wouldnt be as much hatred against the US, the financial crisis wouldnt have been that deep if it would even have happened, etc, etc.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

Quoting N867DA (Reply 52):
it isn't appropriate to bring it up during the dedication of his presidential library

There's no better time as that's actually the entire point of the library. From the New York Times article about the dedication:

Quote:
While critics have fumed about what they called the whitewashing of his record in the media blitz leading up to the library dedication, many Americans have been reminded about aspects of Mr. Bush they once liked. Advisers said they hoped the moment would help history draw a fuller picture.

“It’s never been about presenting him,” said Nicolle Wallace, who worked on Mr. Bush’s re-election campaign and in the White House. “It’s been about revealing him.”

Bush wants to reveal himself to current and future generations to help understand him and his administration.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

Quoting N867DA (Reply 52):
it isn't appropriate to bring it up during the dedication of his presidential library

Sure it is. It was built with private funds, but the National Archive and thus my tax dollars will have the task of running it for decades to come. All this for a guy who had no use for libraries, to store papers written by idiot neo-cons who failed to learn the lessons of the biggest event of their younger lives, namely Vietnam.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 52):
He did his job as best as he could, and none of us will ever be privy to some of the facts he knew to make the decisions he did.

Except they weren't facts, and it wasn't that hard to see the agenda that all around him had. Within hours of the attacks of 9/11 Rumsfeld was yacking in a meeting and writing on his pad about how to tie the attacks to Iraq.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
So he tried and he is the worst ever?

He failed and is the worst ever. More to the point, he failed largely because he was the worst ever.

There was also the whole thing with the economy going basically nowhere during his presidency, although presidential control of such things is limited, while the Reagan and Clinton administrations oversaw strong economies with a relatively brief hiccup during the Bush presidency (that's what happens when wars end), which by some measures was less severe than the 1980 recession under Carter.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
Why is Bush II so great when he did nothing to capture bin Laden?

Yeah, because when a president goes the entire military and intelligence community gets changed too.  
Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
In fact, his daddy had the bin Laden family flown out of the United States on the morning of Sept. 11.

Really? That myth has been debunked for nearly a decade.   

Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
Oh, wait... I forgot: Any elected official with a (D) behind their name is the worst ever and should always be excluded from any history.

Clinton wasn't half bad.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 50):
It's a perception that's just not borne out in reality.

I never said Carter was the only president to blame. He was one of several presidents to neglect the military after the Vietnam war and failed to fix the problem. Reagan, however, did not although he now gets blamed for spending money when all he was really doing was undoing the mistakes of his predecessors.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 50):
The military had plenty of resources (a) in general and (b) to complete this particular mission.

Sure they did. I guess then that it's a coincidence that the invasion of Grenada was similarly disorganized, the military was reorganized in 1986, and subsequent operations in Panama and the Middle East were far more successful.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2649 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
What book does it have?
Is it a coloring book?
Or is it a comic book?
GWB: Worst. President. Ever.

And anyone who believes this is GUARANTEED to go to hell as they know they are intentionally being dishonest.

[Edited 2013-04-27 11:10:39]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2630 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 56):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
So he tried and he is the worst ever?

He failed and is the worst ever. More to the point, he failed largely because he was the worst ever.

I don't get why everyone is arguing "who is the worst" when it is not a fact but merely opinion... it's not like it will ever be proven either way. Also, I fail to see how liberal posters thinking GWB is the worst and conservative posters thinking Cater was the worst is in anyway shocking....



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 58):
I don't get why everyone is arguing "who is the worst" when it is not a fact but merely opinion... it's not like it will ever be proven either way. Also, I fail to see how liberal posters thinking GWB is the worst and conservative posters thinking Cater was the worst is in anyway shocking....

Well it is an ABSOLUTE FACT that Bush was NOT the worst, regardless of what Democrats want to believe.

[Edited 2013-04-27 11:28:29]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 59):
Well it is an ABSOLUTE FACT that Bush was NOT the worst, regardless of what Democrats want to believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

Edit: Actually, you may be right... http://www.conservapedia.com/Jimmy_Carter  

No I'm not serious...

[Edited 2013-04-27 11:35:00]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 56):
Reagan, however, did not although he now gets blamed for spending money when all he was really doing was undoing the mistakes of his predecessors.

Let's not rewrite history too much. As vets came back from Vietnam, they ran the risk of people spitting on them if they wore their uniform in public. That was the level of disgust in America with the military. Carter presided over a time in America when we didn't want to go storming around the earth engaging in ground battles any longer.

It'd be interesting to see how much of Carter's military budgets were for decommissioning and removal of ghost fleets, like what used to be a solid line of rusting ships in the Carquinez Straits and Suisun Bay. Yeah, Reagan got money for some of his projects, but he eventually had to agree to massive base closings in return. The first BRAC report emerged in Reagan's last year in office.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 56):
There was also the whole thing with the economy going basically nowhere during his presidency, although presidential control of such things is limited, while the Reagan and Clinton administrations oversaw strong economies with a relatively brief hiccup during the Bush presidency (that's what happens when wars end), which by some measures was less severe than the 1980 recession under Carter.

Sure, if Carter was willing to increase government spending on the military from ~$350B to ~$650B as shown above he could have had a good economy too. Note that St. Ronald Reagan himself had a hiccup in His economy once He cut back the military spending circa 1985.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 57):
And anyone who believes this is GUARANTEED to go to hell as they know they are intentionally being dishonest.

Good thing you aren't responsible for my eternal soul, just as it's good that I'm not responsible for yours or Reagan's or GWB's or ...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 61):
That was the level of disgust in America with the military. Carter presided over a time in America when we didn't want to go storming around the earth engaging in ground battles any longer.

It's understandable why the military got the way it did, but that doesn't make it right. The leaders should have known better and instead of fixing the problems that became apparent during the Vietnam war, mostly swept them under the rug until the 1980s.

Having a capable military does not mean it must be used to justify the expense.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2609 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63):
Having a capable military does not mean it must be used to justify the expense.

That's fine and dandy to say 35 years later, but totally irrelevant to the times. Militarization simply wasn't a priority that would have passed Congress if the members wanted to get re-elected.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63):

Some things just happen. The military is learning new things to train for everyday. Night low-levels in a dust storm probably wouldn't have been a top training priority even had we spent more money on the military. Maybe spending was a bit too low (IDK, I wasn't there, it's probably too high now) but blaming Carter for that failure is kinda dishonest IMO, minus him being the Commander in Chief that ultimately bears some responsibility for everything



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
The military fell into a state of disrepair after Vietnam and Carter did nothing about it, and the failure of the rescue attempt and the sloppy invasion of Grenada in 1983 were direct results.

Carter, along with Ford, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama have all inherited the results of the Nixon administration plan to draw down the US miltary after the peak of Vietnam.

Today there are about 1.43 million people on active duty in the US military and some 850,000 reserves, including IRR.

In 1968, there were over 600,000 in Vietnam, and over 600,000 in Thailand, Philippines, Guam and ships in the Gulf in direct support of the Vietnam war. There were even more than 2 million in support of NATO missions in the Atlantic and Europe.

The US military was extremely labor intensive. With the draft, the US military had to find jobs for almost a half-million new draftee's each year. People who would be gone in two years, or less. Even if the job was just 'painting rocks'.

The Nixon adminstration started withdrawing people from Vietnam in the summer of 1969. The US military was grossly bloated with manpower, and very expensive. Draftees especially were a waste of government money.

An overall plan/ concept was developed to trim the US military down in size to about 1 million 'fighters' with most of the support functions - supply, medical, food, maintenance of ships, tanks and planes - turned over to civilian contractors. The head of that study group which developed the plan, and the person who started to implement that strategy was Donald Rumsfeld.

While I saw many of the policies implemented and later withdrawn, the overall impression I have from being in uniform during the 70s was that the US military really didn't know how to draw down in size.

In the Navy we kept a lot of young recruits who really didn't belong in the Navy. The society from which we drew our people was changing quickly. The military population is always a reflection of the society which contributes its members.

The Navy, Marine and Army also suffered in the quality of available young recruits. The 'high quality' recruits were largely very disappointed with the low pay, a legacy of the draft system where the country could not afford the pay recruits a wage a person could live upon. The best recruits also were very much affected by their older brothers and relatives who had either worked to avoid the draft, or had served, but came away very disenchanted with the experience.

You can blame Carter if you wish, but he never had a level of power in DC to reverse the Rumsfeld plan.

Part of that was never having a compliant Congress to follow his wishes.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 58):
I don't get why everyone is arguing "who is the worst" when it is not a fact but merely opinion

Yes, it is all subjective. Thank you, once again, for putting things in perspective.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 56):
Really? That myth has been debunked for nearly a decade

So, the right says it didn't happen, therefore, it didn't happen. But, the right says Benghazi is an impeachable offence, so it is? WTF??



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
Sure, if Carter was willing to increase government spending on the military from ~$350B to ~$650B as shown above he could have had a good economy too.

He didn't. And the result was worsened economic malaise and a big black spot in the desert.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 65):
Some things just happen.

Things happen a little more often when the military is short on training, equipment, and coordination. During the 1983 invasion of Grenada, soldiers were sent into battle using maps meant for tourists.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 66):
The military population is always a reflection of the society which contributes its members.

I kind of doubt that's the case. Even during Vietnam much was made of the fact that the US soldiers there were disproportionately poor and minorities.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 67):
So, the right says it didn't happen, therefore, it didn't happen.

The 9/11 Commission said it didn't happen.

There actually were flights taking Saudis out of the US, but they were after the airspace reopened, the governments, both American and Saudi, knew about and approved of them, they followed all relevant security procedures, and many of the passengers were interviewed by the FBI prior to departure.

Seriously, I can't believe people still have to have this explained to them nine years after it should have all been cleared up. Or at least that all the people who still buy this crap live in bunkers where intelligent people don't have to deal with them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
Things happen a little more often when the military is short on training, equipment, and coordination. During the 1983 invasion of Grenada, soldiers were sent into battle using maps meant for tourists.

I think we are arguing two different things, but honestly, I could see the same disaster happening even if the military budget hadn't been increased. Blaming Carter for Eagle Claw failing is a stretch, IMO. It's really too small of an operation in relatively new circumstances... how much desert training had been done around that time? There really wasn't a need to, everything was Vietnam tactics. Even when I went through Army basic in 2007 we did stuff that was from Vietnam and even earlier. When was the last time you seen a truck with a bunch of soldiers (like 15 or so) in the back shooting out the sides? Try doing that in Iraq or Afghanistan

Maybe you can aruge Carter didn't have the military budget high enough (what you are saying) but I don't think we can fairly put the blame for Eagle Claw's failure on him. Maybe he wasn't harsh enough in his dealing with Iran, but really, we have choppers going down even today in the desert, it happens

Unless you're reading something I don't, I stand by what I am saying



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 69):
It's really too small of an operation in relatively new circumstances...

What happened with Operation Eagle Claw wasn't really the disease as much as a symptom from having a relatively derelict military. The inability or unwillingness to invest in new training and equipment or really try and iron out the problems that presented themselves in Vietnam became a serious problem at that time. At the time the military was out of sight, out of mind and Carter did nothing to fix it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2442 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 70):
What happened with Operation Eagle Claw wasn't really the disease as much as a symptom from having a relatively derelict military.

That's not what I am getting from reading about the actual crash: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw#Debacle

The pilot, in a bunch of dust, lost his frame of reference and mistakenly thought the controller, who was moving back, was still, so the pilot moved forward and eventually crashed. Now maybe that pilot would've been better or gotten more desert like training had Carter "taken better care of the military" but honestly, this sounds like an accident that could happen even today.

Reading about the logistical problems surrounding Eagle Claw may argue your case a bit better, but the ultimate failure and crash, honestly, might have happened today. Not a helo pilot in the military today, so IDK what kind of limited visibility training they get, but I doubt there was really any need post Vietnam, before we really started getting involved in the ME



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 71):
Now maybe that pilot would've been better or gotten more desert like training had Carter "taken better care of the military" but honestly, this sounds like an accident that could happen even today.

You have to remember that even after all of the helicopters that were flown, and lost, in Vietnam it wasn't until after the Desert One crash that the SOAR was formed.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 71):
Reading about the logistical problems surrounding Eagle Claw may argue your case a bit better, but the ultimate failure and crash, honestly, might have happened today.

The logistical problems were a huge issue too, don't get me wrong. Similar issues plagued Urgent Fury as well.

And you're right that things do happen, that will never change. But the reorganization and retooling of the military during the 1980s kept issues like the mishaps suffered in Somalia and the Bin Laden raid from being disasters on the order of Operation Eagle Claw.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 70):
The inability or unwillingness to invest in new training and equipment or really try and iron out the problems that presented themselves in Vietnam became a serious problem at that time.

Delta Force was created in the post-Vietnam era under Carter after the growing number of terrorist events in the 1970s. Their very first big task? Operation Eagle Claw.

You keep going on about a 'derelict military', while in spite of the drawdowns and dismantling going on, the military was still evolving and working on its techniques. It wasn't as stagnant and hapless as you describe it to be.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2412 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
I kind of doubt that's the case.

Again, you are factually wrong. You are not an expert on those times. What study you might of done is obviously faulty. And you haven't lived through the times as many of us have. We know what was happening in those years. We know millions of facts that never made it into history books, unbiased or revisionist.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
Even during Vietnam much was made of the fact that the US soldiers there were disproportionately poor and minorities.

Very little was made of the fact of the US soldiers being largely poor or minority during Vietnam. Much was made of that AFTER Vietnam, but not during most of the war.

The military is ALWAYS disporportionally poor and minorities (or other minority groups that are not racially defined). It was in WWI, it was in WWII, it was in the Civil War and Korea. The soldiers of the Indian Wars of the 1870-80s were largely new immigrants. Vietnam is not the only war where the people with money and time to work the system were able to avoid service, especially front line service.

Today, the US military is largely made up of people from poor and minority backgrounds. The US military is a great way for a young man or woman who doesn't have some of the advantages of money and position to break free and get ahead. To improve their lives.

But it was and still is a reflection of the society of this nation.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
Sure, if Carter was willing to increase government spending on the military from ~$350B to ~$650B as shown above he could have had a good economy too.

He didn't.

Carter did not have a chance to increase spending on the military. This people and voters of this country were purposely and profoundly public about wanting military spending, along with a lot of other spending cut. They wanted the high inflation stopped.

Today's Tea Party - get the deficit under control - politicians sound like weak imitations of the politicans of the 70s. When Nixon started cutting billions from the DOD budget - a lot of people were put out of work. Civilian taxpayers and voters.

This nation has always suffered a major economic downturn as war spending stops. That last for near a decade, unless the Congress is willing to pump billions into new programs. That happened in the late 40s with the Cold War. It did not happen in the 70s.

The US Navy in 1972 was filled with old, out of date ships, airplanes and other equipment - because anything that could float was kept on line for Vietnam. The Air Force and Army had the same problems. Just getting rid of the useless crap was difficult and expensive. It took years to redesign the military force to an 'all volunteer force' and to get used to the concept that technology and not brute manpower was the way to get a quality military.

Part of the example of how bad things were involved President George W. Bush's end of his military service. By 1972, the USAF was doing every thing they could to get rid of excess pilots for out of date airplanes. Like a Air National Guard F-102 pilot who was obviously not going career.

They wanted hundreds of pilots, mechanics and other technicians for those planes out of the military. They did not want to have to waste money or time on them. So if the USAF/ANG could find a way to let someone go - they did.


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
There actually were flights taking Saudis out of the US, but they were after the airspace reopened,

Factually wrong again. Some of the Saudi flights occured before the airspace was reopened to civilian usage.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
I can't believe people still have to have this explained to them nine years after it should have all been cleared up.

Because some people ignore facts and pretend things are cleared up which are not. And likely never will be.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
During the 1983 invasion of Grenada, soldiers were sent into battle using maps meant for tourists.

Because nobody, including the Reagan Defense Department ever though military maps would be needed for the Caribbean islands. We didn't even have military maps for Antigua in 1982, except for those from 1940 done by the British.

You cannot blame Grenada on Carter. The Reagan administration had two years to study and prepare for a possible military intervention.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72):
But the reorganization and retooling of the military during the 1980s kept issues like the mishaps suffered in Somalia and the Bin Laden raid from being disasters on the order of Operation Eagle Claw.

I disagree - the fiasco in Beirut in 1983 was much worse than Operation Eagle Claw - when the President's Special Envoy used his pull with the White House to get the Colonel on the ground over-ruled about Rules of Engagement, even the White House requiring that sentries not carry weapons with clips in the weapon. And his reward - he is eventually named National Security Advisor.

The Reagan White House micro-managed field commanders even more closely than the Johnson White House. And clearly distrusted the experience and advice of military professionals.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
And yet, he made some of the worst policy decisions in the last decades. Intelligence is worth nothing if you're unwilling to question your own conclusions.

Yet you seem to unquestionably accept the image of Bush as a bumbling idiot spread by the left and hostile media, vs. reports from everyone (that I can think of) who actually knew him and worked with him as very sharp.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 74):
Factually wrong again. Some of the Saudi flights occured before the airspace was reopened to civilian usage.
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFil...on-report-on-bin-Laden-flights.pdf

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Bin_Laden_family_flight

Debunked conclusively. Next.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2366 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 75):
Debunked conclusively. Next.

See - you have proven my point.

The national airspace was 'reopened' on Sept 13, however civilians were prevented from flying aircraft for several more days.

Only special flights were authorized on an individual basis during the Sept 14-16 time frame.

Now, that is the fact which Snoped confirms.

However, there was no conspiracy. It was good common sense to let people obviously not involved in the 9/11 attacks leave the country.

This nation saw too many attacks and some murders of innocent people by dumb hicks who equated dark skin with 'terrorists'

[Edited 2013-04-28 07:14:10]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2358 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 76):
The national airspace was 'reopened' on Sept 13, however civilians were prevented from flying aircraft for several more days.

On Sept 13th private traffic, charters and business jets were all allowed to travel, although airlines did not start up until the 14th. I know for a fact Northwest Airlines was flying on the 14th.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 76):
This nation saw too many attacks and some murders of innocent people by dumb hicks who equated dark skin with 'terrorists'

There was only one murder as you describe. Frank Silva Roque was arrested, convicted and sentenced to death for it. His death sentence was later changed to life in prison without parole, due to "low IQ". In other words, this guy was a moron, and not representative of 99.999999% of the American population who don't take out their anger on innocents at the drop of a hat, like in some countries.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12593 posts, RR: 25
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 61):
Carter presided over a time in America when we didn't want to go storming around the earth engaging in ground battles any longer.

And I'm still not sure why that isn't the case still.

I still can't explain why GWB didn't learn anything from Vietnam.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 68):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
Sure, if Carter was willing to increase government spending on the military from ~$350B to ~$650B as shown above he could have had a good economy too.

He didn't. And the result was worsened economic malaise and a big black spot in the desert.

Nonsense. There is no way you can say with any certainty that a huge increase in military spending would have changed the result in the desert more so than would a huge cut. There were plenty of resources available to complete the mission, the main problem is the military just didn't have the focus on that kind of mission like they do now.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 69):
Maybe you can aruge Carter didn't have the military budget high enough (what you are saying) but I don't think we can fairly put the blame for Eagle Claw's failure on him.

  

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 73):
Delta Force was created in the post-Vietnam era under Carter after the growing number of terrorist events in the 1970s. Their very first big task? Operation Eagle Claw.

You keep going on about a 'derelict military', while in spite of the drawdowns and dismantling going on, the military was still evolving and working on its techniques. It wasn't as stagnant and hapless as you describe it to be.

Indeed, the reason we had a F-117 and B-2 were because of decisions made in the Carter era. Reagan crucified Carter for stopping the B-1 but of course there were sound reasons for it. Ronnie opened the spigots and we got the B-1s which are largely hanger queens and we rebuild WWII battleships and all that stuff is still being paid for since 'supply side' / 'voodoo' economics is nonsense.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 74):
The US Navy in 1972 was filled with old, out of date ships, airplanes and other equipment - because anything that could float was kept on line for Vietnam. The Air Force and Army had the same problems. Just getting rid of the useless crap was difficult and expensive. It took years to redesign the military force to an 'all volunteer force' and to get used to the concept that technology and not brute manpower was the way to get a quality military.

Yep, I was in high school in the Carter era and the military were able to steer their recruiting towards the kids that had interests/skills that they could use. For instance the USN took a bunch of us who were taking electronics classes on a trip down to the sub base in New London to show off the place. We had a ham radio club in high school so they took us to the base's ham station and we had a blast.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 78):
There were plenty of resources available to complete the mission, the main problem is the military just didn't have the focus on that kind of mission like they do now.

Exactly. If we all of the sudden had to attack something in the Artic (just go along with it) and the mission failed due to some hazard up there, would we blame President Obama for cutting the military and being unprepared, or would we say "hey we've been fighting in the desert for a decade so why would we train Artic ops?" (Well sadly, I'm sure people would just blame the President anyway.)

Point is, the mission failed partly due to a freak accident and partly because we had just fought in Vietnam (where we didn't have to worry about sand.) Blaming Carter for that failure is just silly.

Plus, if you're gonna blame Carter, at least be honest and blame Congress and the majority of the American people who didn't want increased military spending, because apparently they were all against it



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

The Atlantic did a (long) great article on Eagle Claw a few years ago. It's interesting reading:

The Desert One Debacle



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 77):
this guy was a moron, and not representative of 99.999999% of the American population who don't take out their anger on innocents at the drop of a hat, like in some countries.

Protesting mosques and shooting up a Sikh temple and telling everyone Obama is a Muslim and forcing everyone to boycott al-Jezeera? None of that stuff ever happened here? Is that what you are telling us?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 81):
Protesting mosques and shooting up a Sikh temple and telling everyone Obama is a Muslim and forcing everyone to boycott al-Jezeera? None of that stuff ever happened here? Is that what you are telling us?

I do admit that morons pop up and say do things all the time  



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2276 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 81):
I do admit that morons pop up and say do things all the time

Yet in another thread, we're being told that in the west there are "voices crying for genocide" against Muslims. You guys should really get together sometime and get your story straight.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 82):
Yet in another thread, we're being told that in the west there are "voices crying for genocide" against Muslims.

One or two nuts maybe. But tell me where you've seen evidence of there being enough of them to constitute a real threat to the Islamic population of the world.

You can find at least one person with every imaginable insane ideology or conspiracy theory somewhere. But you only really have to start worrying about them when those ideologies infect not just just a couple of people here and there, but when thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of people start to think that way and live among others who do as well, then we have a real problem on our hands. And the only ideology that qualifies in the world today, I think, is radical Islam. The question is - how do we defeat it - without resorting the equally unacceptable genocidal thoughts you mentioned?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 73):
You keep going on about a 'derelict military', while in spite of the drawdowns and dismantling going on, the military was still evolving and working on its techniques. It wasn't as stagnant and hapless as you describe it to be.

I never said there weren't small victories. Forming Delta Force was a good idea, even if getting it right took some time and it was also in that era that the Fighter Mafia started winning battles in the bureaucracy.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 74):
Carter did not have a chance to increase spending on the military. This people and voters of this country were purposely and profoundly public about wanting military spending, along with a lot of other spending cut. They wanted the high inflation stopped.

Carter didn't do so hot on that front.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 74):
Factually wrong again. Some of the Saudi flights occured before the airspace was reopened to civilian usage.

The 9/11 Commission disagrees. There is the possibility of the organ transport flights, so there could have been parts of Saudis flying during the shutdown.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 74):
You cannot blame Grenada on Carter. The Reagan administration had two years to study and prepare for a possible military intervention.

I don't blame Grenada on Carter alone as it was the result of over a decade of issues in the military that had not been fixed. Carter was just one president who swept them under the rug.

The Reagan administration had a lot of things to fix when it came to the military and turning it around took some time. Goldwater-Nichols wasn't even passed until 1986, so while what Reagan did was time consuming and expensive he must be credited for facing the issues head on and ultimately setting the stage for a much more effective force.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 76):
although airlines did not start up until the 14th. I know for a fact Northwest Airlines was flying on the 14th.

That had more to do with having planes and crews scattered all over the place than anything else.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 77):
There is no way you can say with any certainty that a huge increase in military spending would have changed the result in the desert more so than would a huge cut.

Throwing money at it isn't the whole solution, but is part of it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20684 posts, RR: 62
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2262 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
But tell me where you've seen evidence of there being enough of them to constitute a real threat to the Islamic population of the world.

I haven't, and I question that whole line of thinking. I was pointing out that that argument has gone largely unchallenged. See from reply 13 onwards:

Al-Qaeda Terror Plot To Derail NYC-Toronto Train. (by OA260 Apr 22 2013 in Non Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 85):
I haven't, and I question that whole line of thinking. I was pointing out that that argument has gone largely unchallenged. See from reply 13 onwards:

It goes unchallenged because most people recognize it as stupid talk from inconsequential people. Now, if you have somebody in elected national office, or a political party say that "we need to get rid of all muslims", now that would be something entirely different, and the reactions of people will reflect that.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
What book does it have?
Is it a coloring book?
Or is it a comic book?
GWB: Worst. President. Ever.

You beat me to it about the coloring book. He was the worst president ever until the guy we got now and it will probably get even worse years to come no matter which of the 2 parties.


User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2083 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 74):
Yet you seem to unquestionably accept the image of Bush as a bumbling idiot spread by the left and hostile media, vs. reports from everyone (that I can think of) who actually knew him and worked with him as very sharp

Bush apologists are not the only ones able to see beyond image and study reality.

Nice guy or not, well-spoken or not, Republican or Democrat - the man killed a couple hundred thousand people for

1....mistaken, but well-intentioned reasons (charitable explanation)...WMDs
or
2...unmistaken special-interest poltical reasons (cynical explanation)...capitalising on post 9-11 fears for political gain


-

Either way this is not the debate about tax policy, economics and domestic affairs that we might have about Reagan or Clinton. This is a man who killed. On a large scale. . The seriousness of his policies make the incumbent framework of Republican v. Democrat irrelevant. For the sake of our shared heritage of freedom, Christianity and democracy I hope everyone eventually comes to see Bush as justified in his polcies as Churchill. But I don't see it.



Pu


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
To those you think W is such a dumb guy I can guarantee he is probably more intelligent than 99 out of 100 people on Anet.

Lemme guess, you're one of those 1 per centers.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 37):
On a lighter note, it did remind me of a Saturday Night Live skit about Reagan from years ago...

My favorite, where he acts all homey and nice in front of the cameras but tough as nails in private.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 39):
So even though Carter blundered, it was actually a good thing, because it caused us to get our act together

The crew that got OBL learned from the Operation Eagle Claw mistake and made sure not to repeat it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 71):
kept issues like the mishaps suffered in Somalia and the Bin Laden raid from being disasters on the order of Operation Eagle Claw.

  

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 73):
Vietnam is not the only war where the people with money and time to work the system were able to avoid service

Those who 'had other priorities'

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 73):
Some of the Saudi flights occured before the airspace was reopened to civilian usage.

  

Quoting Revelation (Reply 77):
I still can't explain why GWB didn't learn anything from Vietnam.

He wasn't there. He was busy defending Texas (or was it Alabama?).



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
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