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Hyundai Suicide Ad Pulled  
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5649 posts, RR: 32
Posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3072 times:

Oops!

http://www.independent.ie/world-news...ng-suicide-is-pulled-29222594.html

And the ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxFRa3Cesh0

76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Having seen the aftermath of a neighbor who killed herself this way when I was a child, this ad comes across as extremely offensive. I'm glad it was pulled. It's unbelievable that the Guardian chose it as one of their top picks of the week.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5649 posts, RR: 32
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
I'm glad it was pulled.

You'd wonder if this was the idea. It'll probably be the most watched Hyundai ad ever. Apart from my favourite from a decace ago, maybe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdTyISEM-D8


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10657 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

Thats not funny at all. Ok, virals can be more drastic than TV ads, but this is plain impious.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 2):
It'll probably be the most watched Hyundai ad ever.

People have long memories. I still won't buy anything made by Toshiba.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

This ad is genius.

It actually makes a relevant point about the car in what could be called an unconventional way. Kind of a nice break from seeing minivans pretend to carve corners or simply parking cars in front of modern style houses in an attempt to make them look cool.

And for those who think it's inappropriate, duh. That's the point. Nobody is going to read a news item about a Hyundai crossover because 1) it's a crossover and 2) it's a Hyundai. But they will rack up tons of pageviews with stories about the commercial. And then we all go watch it. We seek out a commercial. All the news stories, complaints, and apologies basically add up to yelling "Hey everyone, don't watch this interesting and controversial video!"

I'm sure the car is average at best, but Hyundai hit a home run with this commercial. It will end up doing far more than another throwaway car ad.

But, for a less inappropriate attempt and unconventional marketing, Jaguar released a thirteen minute short film starring Damien Lewis which actually wouldn't be awful even without the car porn. Featuring an F-Type makes it definitely worth watching, although for some reason they insisted upon a musical score.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2998 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
This ad is genius.

Yeah, you're right. It is genius. The only thing that could have made it better is if they used a washed out grad student who was killing himself over being stuck in a retail job. But the joke's on him again, just like that college education was, since the car is zero emissions.

What a knee slapper that'd be! I should write in and suggest that.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
Yeah, you're right. It is genius.

It is. We both watched it, along with tons of other people.

It is wildly inappropriate, but then, plenty of things that are wildly inappropriate also become wildly popular, or at least very well known. All of the sudden, basically the whole world now knows about a car that could only be more nondescript if it wore a Toyota badge. (And even those are grounded to the ground)

The goal wasn't to be inoffensive or even likable. The goal was to get people to notice the ix35, and by those standards I think the ad is a smashing success.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
The goal was to get people to notice the ix35, and by those standards I think the ad is a smashing success.

Aha! But, I didn't walk away noticing the ix35. I didn't even know that was the car being advertised. All I walked away with was that Hyundai is revolting. The danger is that a large portion of their audience will react the same way when you pick a controversial topic.

As I said before, yeah I'm aware of Toshiba, but I haven't bought a Toshiba-branded item, even though I've had the opportunity, since the mid-1980s. And never will.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):

Ahhhh there we have it. The big "O" word that you all love. Only took one post.

Control your feelings, will ya? I don't feel like doing it for you.

And I should mention this follows a similar plot line from the movie "Office Space", but I'm sure that was ok for most...  Yeah sure

[Edited 2013-04-25 23:48:37]


I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 9):
Control your feelings, will ya? I don't feel like doing it for you.

Well that's just stupid. You weren't the one who came upon a neighbor's house with the garage door open, cops in the driveway, a dead body in the front seat, and a hose taped to the tailpipe early one morning as a child. If you had, perhaps you'd use the "O word" too. If you haven't had the same experience, how could you legitimately say how I feel about Hyundai using that to sell cars? Bottom line: you can't.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2943 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
But, I didn't walk away noticing the ix35.

Other people will. And that isn't necessarily knowing anything relevant about the car, even the zero emissions thing. Just knowing it exists is an accomplishment, considering there are probably a half dozen similar vehicles that are pretty much equivalent for what anyone would ever use them for.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
All I walked away with was that Hyundai is revolting.

You're right, but it has nothing to do with the ad. Owning a Hyundai crossover might actually kind of be a contributing factor in wanting to commit suicide in the first place.   

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 9):
Ahhhh there we have it. The big "O" word that you all love. Only took one post.

Control your feelings, will ya? I don't feel like doing it for you.

I hate the fact that people have to keep explaining this, but here it is: If you don't like something, stop watching it. If you find it offensive, mute it or change the channel. Don't click on stuff you hate. There's enough annoying stuff that one will run across accidentally that it's unnecessary to go seek it out.

For example, I'm a football fan but I watched none of the first round of the draft tonight. The coverage is over the top, often wrong, and full of self serving BS. Any hilarious screw ups will be nicely condensed on Deadspin. (BTW, you should stand up when Roger Goodell is shamelessly using wounded vets for a PR boost. Otherwise, you're an a-hole apparently)

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
You weren't the one who came upon a neighbor's house with the garage door open, cops in the driveway, a dead body in the front seat, and a hose taped to the tailpipe early one morning as a child.

It's understandable why you might find this ad more distasteful than some, but explain exactly how any of that is the fault of Hyundai or their ad agency.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2943 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):

Stupid eh? That's mature.

Sorry, thats tough for sure, but since you don't know me, who I am, what I stand for, etc etc etc... You should not speak for me.

Simple as that.

I do like the fact that the video has a happy ending.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
I hate the fact that people have to keep explaining this, but here it is: If you don't like something, stop watching it. If you find it offensive, mute it or change the channel.

Earlier you argued that the ad was genius, but people will do exactly as you said here. You don't know how many who start watching the ad will finish watching it, which takes away from its value. That's a waste of advertising dollars. Wasting advertising dollars never has been and never will be "genius".

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 12):
since you don't know me, who I am, what I stand for,

So what's good for the goose, isn't good for the gander?   



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
Earlier you argued that the ad was genius, but people will do exactly as you said here. You don't know how many who start watching the ad will finish watching it,

You can't finish watching if you don't start, obviously. And a lot of people will watch it, find it in poor taste, and then never watch it again for that very reason, but at least they watched it.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
That's a waste of advertising dollars. Wasting advertising dollars never has been and never will be "genius".

My understanding is that the ad was for Europe. That means that we, being American, were never supposed to even see it and the only reason we did watch it was precisely because of it's offensiveness. The car isn't even sold under that name here.

It probably says something about the culture of being offended that Americans are getting bent out of shape over a video they were never supposed to watch.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 12):
I do like the fact that the video has a happy ending.

What happy ending? He still owns a Hyundai Tucson.   

[Edited 2013-04-26 00:36:25]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12406 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2907 times:
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Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 12):
I do like the fact that the video has a happy ending.

Only because they cut it before he goes back in the house and hangs himself.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 15):

I don't care what anyone says around here...you're both alright in my book



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2897 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
I hate the fact that people have to keep explaining this, but here it is: If you don't like something, stop watching it.

That argument breaks down somewhat when it comes to advertisements. Unlike TV shows, movies or videos, you normally don't get to pick which ads you see and which you don't.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
but at least they watched it.

If people close the page, or switch the channel, they don't get to the end of the ad, where it gives the product name. If an advertiser can't get people to the point where the product is sold, then it's useless. It's a waste of the ad budget.

I probably skip the ad on 90% or more of the ads on youtube, because they don't capture my attention in a way that I'd be interested in watching it. The only one I've watched all the way through recently was for cars, but I think it was for Subaru. The cars on the piano keys commercial.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6147 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2851 times:
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My classmate and seatmate at my MBA program in the US, Kevin B. offed himself this way. He was the life of the party, a very good looking (in a typical American way) young man, incredibly bright, with a lovely Hollywoodesque type fiancée and always helping others. Heck, I know I wouldn´t have passed Corporate Finance without his help. He was always organizing stuff, volunteering activities, soccer tournaments, etc.

And one day during December break, with only 5 months to go in that very hard two year program he did exactly what the guy in this commercial did. Only there was not water vapor, but poisonous gases.

That was 15 years ago and I am still left with questions. I get why he did it. Now I understand depression, symptomless depression and its issues but still, there´s guilt, remorse and anger. And I am not even his family.

The only thing I see in this commercial (and by the way, halfway through it I wasn´t even interested in the car) is an attempt by some geek in advertising to do something different. Sure, he may get people to watch through the commercial and actually some may note the car and comment on it being a Hyundai.

But I´m willing to bet that the feeling of disgust a lot more people will feel and associate with such brand will be more than whatever profits this ghoulish ad may bring. Otherwise, why did they pull it?



MGGS
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26863 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

Well its a very sore subject here in Ireland. With so many suicides for various reasons lots to do with economic crisis and depression generally and still Gay men kill themselves because of fear of coming out. Its not the best brain wave Hyundai ever had anyway. They are a cheap rubbish brand anyway .

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2840 times:

If I had a Hyundai I'd be suicidal too...It would probably mean the end of the world was coming...

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13042 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

To me such ads show a total lack of common sense, sensitivity, ignorance of real life and far too many who won't speak up and say no, this is wrong. This ad should have died at the earliest stages at the ad agency. The TV stations that allowed this ad to be put on should have some standards to say no. We saw a similar lack of thought a few months ago with a Ford car ad in India that depicted famous women tied up.

There are far too many tasteless ads, sexist, ethnically insulting, violent, make you go WTF were they thinking. I hope Hyundai and others who pay for ads put in stricter standards for ads, to screen them with a broader group of people, note any objections and make adjustments. One can be clever, humorous and make an ad that sells the product, not create negative reactions.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2739 times:
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I really don't know what is wrong with some advertisers. Only the other week here in the UK we had a manufacturer of body lotion advertising their product with a parody of a recovering heroin addict, lonely in a darkened room 'confessing' that she "....started with a small dose, all her friends were doing it". It ended with something along the lines of "try it once - you'll be hooked".

I was astounded. Here is something that blights people's lives, those of their family and friends, victims of drug-related crime, law-enforcement and health professionals who deal with addicts, and the list goes on. Unbelievably stupid choice of subject matter.

This advert is no better. Suicide is way more common than people realise, and there is nothing - not one single aspect of it - that is funny. There really are some things that just shouldn't be made light of.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9304 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

Plain and simple - I loved this ad. It's awesome.


Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26863 posts, RR: 58
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2639 times:

Discussing at work today and the general feeling is that its wrong. One colleague I didn't mention it to as her husband took his own life leaving three kids not long ago . Thought it best not to discuss it with her around. A few of my colleagues who normally shrug politics and these scandals aside were quite vocal that they found it offensive making money out of suicide.

I think Hyundai should make a sizable charity donation to suicide charities where the ad was broadcast.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 25):
I think Hyundai should make a sizable charity donation to suicide charities where the ad was broadcast.

  

I thought it was both interesting and appropriate that the Independent gave the phone number for the Samaritans at the end of their article. You wouldn't see that in the U.S.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineIH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
They are a cheap rubbish brand anyway .

You say that, but evidently many people don't share your badge snobbery, judging by Hyundai's double-digit growth in sales and its advancing market share. This frenzy, short-lived as I imagine it will be, comes at a time when Hyundai and its sister brand Kia, traditionally also-rans in the UK and European market, are coming of age as major brands.

I can see what they were trying to say, but I can't for the life of me work out how this idea wasn't scotched early on. It seems too risky a gamble for a manufacturer trying to consolidate its mainstream credibility. I'd be expecting its ads to reassure, not to make an edgy statement.



Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26863 posts, RR: 58
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 27):
but evidently many people don't share your badge snobbery

I dont like the brand its got nothing to do about snobbery ! Dont make accusations when you dont know what your talking about. Maybe you are a bit biased to leap to such a defence!


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2539 times:

Very bad taste, IMO, but if the company really wanted to put that ad out and the channels really wanted to air it, well, I see it as freedom...

I've luckily never been affected by suicide but I'd never make a joke like that to such a wide audience of people, a ton of whom have experienced a suicide in their lives...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9807 posts, RR: 26
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2532 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 26):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 25):
I think Hyundai should make a sizable charity donation to suicide charities where the ad was broadcast.



I thought it was both interesting and appropriate that the Independent gave the phone number for the Samaritans at the end of their article. You wouldn't see that in the U.S.

Why make a donation? All that shows is that Hyundai is trying to placate the folks who are offended.

If they actually wanted to make a donation to suicide charities, they would have already done so.

Don't get me wrong, donating to charities is great, but I've never understood the whole "I'll donate to a charity to right this wrong that I committed" mentality.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineIH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 3
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
I dont like the brand its got nothing to do about snobbery ! Dont make accusations when you dont know what your talking about. Maybe you are a bit biased to leap to such a defence!

You said it was a "cheap rubbish brand" - I felt it was worth making the point that Hyundai is no longer an also-ran in the European car industry and I stand by that concept; in any case their sales growth speaks for itself. I have no connection with Hyundai, I've never owned one, and there's no reason why I should rush to defend them. Nevertheless, I admit I was making assumptions about your comments, I agree the term 'badge snobbery' is antagonistic and I apologise if I caused offence.



Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2529 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
I've luckily never been affected by suicide but I'd never make a joke like that to such a wide audience of people, a ton of whom have experienced a suicide in their lives...

People make a great many jokes about suicide on a regular basis, throw-away comments and so on. But, you hit the nail on the head with the audience issue - to actually think it was appropriate to air this to everybody even for a second, yet alone take it all the way through to production etc, is just incredibly foolish and insensitive.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 30):
Don't get me wrong, donating to charities is great, but I've never understood the whole "I'll donate to a charity to right this wrong that I committed" mentality.

Generally, I'm not a fan of that mentality either. However, the imagery of suicide is a known behavioral contagion, where those already prone to suicide may be tipped over the edge to commit the act after viewing graphic depictions of it.

Hyundai donating to suicide hotlines or other charities which may have to deal with any possible fallout from the ad, would be the appropriate thing to do as a responsible corporate citizen. Some money from their ad agency wouldn't be a bad idea either.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
That argument breaks down somewhat when it comes to advertisements. Unlike TV shows, movies or videos, you normally don't get to pick which ads you see and which you don't.

I doubt you're strapped to your chair though.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
If an advertiser can't get people to the point where the product is sold, then it's useless. It's a waste of the ad budget.

If it doesn't keep people's attention, for one reason or another, then it isn't helping anyway.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
Otherwise, why did they pull it?

It has served its purpose. It's controversial and forbidden fruit. Tell people not to watch something and you can bet most people will watch it.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 22):
To me such ads show a total lack of common sense, sensitivity, ignorance of real life and far too many who won't speak up and say no, this is wrong.

Ok, we can go back to showing the car going, rather slowly, around some corner that isn't nearly as interesting as it looks and then park it in front of a mostly glass house. Just like the 4,528,927 commercials before it.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 25):
Discussing at work today and the general feeling is that its wrong.

How many other car commercials do you discuss at work?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 33):
Hyundai donating to suicide hotlines or other charities which may have to deal with any possible fallout from the ad,

What fallout from the ad? You can't seriously think that someone would decide to commit suicide based on a commercial showing someone failing to commit suicide. What's next? Charging people a nickel if they use the phrase "fuck my life"?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2473 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
What's next? Charging people a nickel if they use the phrase "fuck my life"?

Sounds good. You owe us a nickel.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
What fallout from the ad? You can't seriously think that someone would decide to commit suicide based on a commercial showing someone failing to commit suicide.

It's on YouTube. Someone in crisis could just repeat the pertinent parts. You don't know if they would, nor do I. I do know that in some, watching graphic depictions of suicide can lead to suicide. That's a documented medical phenomenon. Deny it with all the nickels you'd like, but it won't change what it is.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26863 posts, RR: 58
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 31):
Nevertheless, I admit I was making assumptions about your comments, I agree the term 'badge snobbery' is antagonistic and I apologise if I caused offence.

No probs   Ive owned cars which would certainly not claim the badge you mentioned. Quite the opposite. Like everything I have brands that I like or I loath. Most from experience and some I just would not trust but that goes for anything from cars to washing machines to luggage.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
How many other car commercials do you discuss at work?

What we discuss at work depends on whats in the news and what is the topic of the day as is normal in every day life.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2440 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 36):
It's on YouTube. Someone in crisis could just repeat the pertinent parts.

Hyundai did not just invent a new way of killing oneself. It's pretty clear that anyone who wanted to know could find out. Not to mention that now that the ad is no longer on TV, the only way to watch it is to seek it out.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
What we discuss at work depends on whats in the news and what is the topic of the day as is normal in every day life.

And how many other car commercials become newsworthy like this one?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
Not to mention that now that the ad is no longer on TV, the only way to watch it is to seek it out.

Dude, myself and others have realized you're simply playing an online persona, so I'm not going to be your enabler on this topic any further. Suicide isn't a subject I'm going to make light of.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 40, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 39):
Suicide isn't a subject I'm going to make light of.

Then don't. And I'm not making light of suicide, just pointing out that 1) if someone commits suicide it isn't because of a Hyundai commercial, so there is no tangible negative effect from this ad other than people not liking it 2) nobody on this continent was supposed to see it anyway so it's a bit silly to be offended and 3) the ad is in very bad taste and that's why it basically does it's job as an ad.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26863 posts, RR: 58
Reply 41, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2417 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
And how many other car commercials become newsworthy like this one?

Many over the years but usually for the reason its smart/funny/conveys a good message. Not by bad taste and ill though out campaigns.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
1) if someone commits suicide it isn't because of a Hyundai commercial

Agreed

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
2) nobody on this continent was supposed to see it anyway so it's a bit silly to be offended

Wrong ! In this global world of advertising its offensive in many markets even if it does not show there. Plenty of people watch TV over the internet anywhere in the globe.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
3) the ad is in very bad taste

Agreed.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 42, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 41):
Many over the years but usually for the reason its smart/funny/conveys a good message. Not by bad taste and ill though out campaigns.

You pay more attention to commercials than my friends and I do apparently, but still, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 41):
In this global world of advertising its offensive in many markets even if it does not show there. Plenty of people watch TV over the internet anywhere in the globe.

I don't think anyone is under the impression that no North Americans would see the ad. My point is that nobody put this in front of me or any other American. Hyundai is not buying ad time and actively sending me this content, I sought it out. And not only did I seek it out, I did so based on an article where the gist of it is "check out this horrible commercial." I cannot honestly be angry with something that was I was not really intended to see. Just like I wouldn't buy Dane Cook tickets and then be annoyed when he spends ten minutes talking about his penis.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2269 posts, RR: 7
Reply 43, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2251 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 41):
In this global world of advertising its offensive in many markets even if it does not show there.

Well, most of the ads in Europe and the US would be offensive in many/most parts of the Middle East. I guess they should just stop broadcasting them, huh? They might offend Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Yeah... who needs ads anyway?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Hyundai is not buying ad time and actively sending me this content, I sought it out. And not only did I seek it out, I did so based on an article where the gist of it is "check out this horrible commercial."

It's a brilliant marketing strategy. Have to agree with that.

British humor is quite dark, anyway... It fits. Should the famous 'dead parrot sketch' be banned too?

I've seen many a commercial with a "broad" with her breasts half-out walking away. Being demeaning to women notwithstanding, the ads were offensive to anyone who ever lost a girlfriend due to a break-up.


User currently offlineATCtower From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 539 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
This ad is genius.

I agree.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
Well that's just stupid. You weren't the one who came upon a neighbor's house with the garage door open, cops in the driveway, a dead body in the front seat, and a hose taped to the tailpipe early one morning as a child.

So because you experienced something you shouldnt have to, a company, a society has to change?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
You can't finish watching if you don't start, obviously. And a lot of people will watch it, find it in poor taste, and then never watch it again for that very reason, but at least they watched it.

And that is the goal of advertising, to get people to talk about it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
What happy ending? He still owns a Hyundai Tucson.

Well played.

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
That argument breaks down somewhat when it comes to advertisements. Unlike TV shows, movies or videos, you normally don't get to pick which ads you see and which you don't.

Dont know about you but the channel change button works on my tv even when commercials are on.

People have got WAY too sensitive these days and this ad did EXACTLY what Hyundai wanted it to. It got people to watch it and talk about their product. Just because some simple minded, easily offended people cant handle it doesnt debunk the fact that it was a very well played marketing ploy that accomplished exactly what an advertisement sets out to do.



By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 44):
So because you experienced something you shouldnt have to, a company, a society has to change?

What on earth does your reply have to do with the context of the post you quoted? Oh right, nothing. I'd been criticized for using the "O" word, if you'd been paying attention.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9807 posts, RR: 26
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2195 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 33):

Generally, I'm not a fan of that mentality either. However, the imagery of suicide is a known behavioral contagion, where those already prone to suicide may be tipped over the edge to commit the act after viewing graphic depictions of it.

I cannot fault Hyundai for suicides resulting from watching their ad. Just like I can't fault Ozzy Osbourne for the song "Suicide Solution" that supposedly caused a suicide or two.

I mean, geez, how many thousands of ads a day are there with, off the top of my head, speeding, reckless driving, shooting, bombing, murder, maiming, cheating, stealing, lying, etc.? Look at any movie or TV show ad, and you're bound to see quite a bit of that.

Now, if someone gets the final push to end his/her life due to this ad, I think it's grossly unfair to hold the ad responsible. You don't generally live a perfectly normal, healthy, happy life, then see a Hyundai ad, and kill yourself. Obviously this person did not get the help he/she needed, for whatever reason.

And furthermore, the same ad/song/tv show/movie can be interpreted in wildly different ways, and much of that has to do with the person doing the interpreting. So for every person that's driven to commit suicide by this ad (no pun intended), there could be a person who's driven to stay alive.

Note that this is all separate from whether I think the ad is good or bad. I'm perfectly OK with something that may offend me being on TV. Hell, the Big Bang Theory is on like 15 times a day....



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 46):
You don't generally live a perfectly normal, healthy, happy life, then see a Hyundai ad, and kill yourself.

Of course not, and that's not what was either stated nor implied. Good try, though. Congrats!



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2102 times:

This Holly Brockwell in the article is mad at Hyundai for eliciting an emotional reaction to her own father's death. Well, I am sorry for her loss but the one Holly ought to be pissed at (and I suspect really is pissed at) is her father. She also needs to take some ownership for her ultimately unproductive reaction to a stupid television ad.

We continue to offer people explanations and excuses for their rationally indefensible thinking and behavior instead of confronting it for what it is...and then wonder why it persists. I think the Bible is generally trash, but do like Proverbs 27:17: "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." If that means reinforcing a healthy level of disdain for the concept of suicide by mocking it over the airwaves then I'm all for it.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2066 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 48):
offer people explanations and excuses for their rationally indefensible thinking

Uh, you do realize that most people that commit suicide emotionally can't think rationally? It's like getting mad at someone with mental problems for doing something crazy, or getting mad at a baby for crying. Your anger or calling them greedy or a wuss isn't going to help. It has been scientifically studied too if you don't wanna take my word for it

I'd read into it or get some empathy... I used to think the way you did until I've seen some people I knew (not very well, but enough about) who were war hero (brave) officers (generally smart) and a family man (all of the above showing selflessness) kill themselves, so I'm gonna lean towards the mental problem rather than believing they just changed their character, out of the blue

Your line of thinking doesn't do any good in regards to suicide, so why continue to do so? Why not try to help or say nothing at all?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2040 times:

This is a great ad at bringing publicity to the brand, but whether it is good publicity remains in doubt. Companies should take care not to be too offensive if they are trying to appeal to a more sophisticated audience--which I assume Hyundai is trying to do based on some of their other ads and recent changes in brand look and feel. All this does is inspire me to do is past 10 Hyundai lots to a Ford or Toyota dealership.

A great ad that will lead to sloppy results.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11219 posts, RR: 52
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
That argument breaks down somewhat when it comes to advertisements. Unlike TV shows, movies or videos, you normally don't get to pick which ads you see and which you don't.

I doubt you're strapped to your chair though.

What do you think happens to the TV show when everyone, or even just a sizable portion of the audience turns it off when they see this commercial?

BMI, here's where you're completely off target. This is not a freedom of speech issue. No one here is suggesting or will suggest that ads such as these should be banned. Rather, it is our position that such an ad that even you could predict would be objectionable to a great many people would go far towards preventing the ad from serving its two main purposes: 1) get people to buy hyundais and 2) pay for the television show in which it airs.

You cannot possibly believe that this ad will be successful at making Hyundai or the shows in which it airs money.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 44):
And that is the goal of advertising, to get people to talk about it.

Incorrect. The goal of advertising is to move product. In advertising, offending your target audience is the antithesis of this goal. Want proof? They took the ad down.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2007 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 51):
What do you think happens to the TV show when everyone, or even just a sizable portion of the audience turns it off when they see this commercial?

They don't see the ad. But the effect of not seeing an ad and seeing an ad but not liking it is basically the same.

Quoting D L X (Reply 51):
Rather, it is our position that such an ad that even you could predict would be objectionable to a great many people would go far towards preventing the ad from serving its two main purposes: 1) get people to buy hyundais and 2) pay for the television show in which it airs.

It got plenty of people to think and talk about Hyundai for several minutes more than they would have otherwise.

Quoting D L X (Reply 51):
Want proof? They took the ad down.

But it served its purpose. Sure they pulled it from TV, but now the internet is teeming with articles that say "Hey everyone, follow this link to see the Hyundai commercial that's terrible and got taken down!"



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1998 times:
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Quoting D L X (Reply 51):
Want proof? They took the ad down.

And sent out grovelling apologies in a couple of statements to boot.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1999 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 52):
But it served its purpose. Sure they pulled it from TV, but now the internet is teeming with articles that say "Hey everyone, follow this link to see the Hyundai commercial that's terrible and got taken down!"

Has that "there is no such thing as bad publicity" argument ever been proven or are you just repeating what you heard from the TV or internet or whatever?

And what about the BP spill... a lot of people were talking about BP when they weren't before and I doubt that got ANYONE to say "hey I'm gonna buy BP now!" If anything, it made people boycott BP, I still know a lot of people that are still boycotting them. So I see what you're saying about Huyndai, but it could just make people go "meh" and some people not buy from them



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 54):
And what about the BP spill... a lot of people were talking about BP when they weren't before and I doubt that got ANYONE to say "hey I'm gonna buy BP now!" If anything, it made people boycott BP, I still know a lot of people that are still boycotting them.

The difference is that BP actually caused some tangible damage. Hyundai's ad doesn't actually hurt anyone or anything.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 54):
So I see what you're saying about Huyndai, but it could just make people go "meh" and some people not buy from them

Hyundai already makes most people go "meh."



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1974 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 55):
Hyundai's ad doesn't actually hurt anyone or anything.

Do you seriously believe that? Maybe in terms of physical harm you're correct, but psychological harm and upset can be completely real, no matter how dismissive of it you want to be. For people raw from just losing someone it's very definitely hurtful to have to see such claptrap.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9807 posts, RR: 26
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1975 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 47):
Of course not, and that's not what was either stated nor implied. Good try, though. Congrats!

Thank you! Almost as good as you ignoring the rest of my post.

We were discussing Hyundai donating to suicide charities. I don't believe that's required (and yes, I know it's not "required" per se). I don't believe they have any moral obligation to do so. And I'm firmly of the opinion that Hyundai will not have caused any suicides, or even been a significant cause of any suicides.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineiMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6281 posts, RR: 34
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
Unlike TV shows, movies or videos, you normally don't get to pick which ads you see and which you don't.

Really? I can't recall the last ad I watched.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 15):
Only because they cut it before he goes back in the house and hangs himself.

That was tasteless, thanks.   



Quit calling an airport ramp "Tarmac" and a taxiway "runway".
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1967 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 49):
Uh, you do realize that most people that commit suicide emotionally can't think rationally? It's like getting mad at someone with mental problems for doing something crazy, or getting mad at a baby for crying. Your anger or calling them greedy or a wuss isn't going to help. It has been scientifically studied too if you don't wanna take my word for it

I'd read into it or get some empathy... I used to think the way you did until I've seen some people I knew (not very well, but enough about) who were war hero (brave) officers (generally smart) and a family man (all of the above showing selflessness) kill themselves, so I'm gonna lean towards the mental problem rather than believing they just changed their character, out of the blue

Thank you for helping me to make my point.

Let's assume for a second here that I genuinely lack empathy. You seem to have no problem at all calling me out for that because you find my line of thinking and my behavior in expressing it to be unacceptable.

What if I told you that because of abuse in my childhood, I'm genuinely damaged emotionally and cannot display empathy or feel love etc. Not true but work with me here. You'd recognize that it was beyond my capability to display empathy, and seek to help me personally, but you sure wouldn't suddenly condone my behavior or consider it acceptable for human beings to treat each other without empathy. You would probably continue to speak out to encourage the behavior that you want to see, as you have done here.

That is all I am doing (both here and in the previous 'heroin addict' thread). Why the double standard?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 49):
Your line of thinking doesn't do any good in regards to suicide,

And here is where I disagree with you.

Somebody doesn't just wake up one day suicidal. It is a mental illness that develops over time. Obvioulsy part of it is physical (chemical balances etc.) but the rest of it is the result of bad thinking. If you don't believe that, then explain to me how cognitive therapies are so effective. Of all the voices in a person's head the loudest ought to be the one that is demanding that he or she do the right thing by his/her family, shipmates etc. using the legitimate behavior modification tool called "shame" if necessary. The guy who properly understands his obligations is more likely to go in for help early instead of indulging whatever self-centered thoughts and feelings eventually lead to suicide. Society should constantly reinforce those obligations, even if that means being "insensitive".

Laying off of an issue like suicide because it ultimately becomes involuntary isn't the right answer. How many men - at the height of a hopeless battle - have stuck to their guns because they feared letting their buddies down more than death itself? Empathy doesn't get you that kind of courage.

So yeah, I don't feel bad about a car commercial that mocks a guy who is trying to commit suicide.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1969 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 54):
Has that "there is no such thing as bad publicity" argument ever been proven

It's actually known to be false. I ran across an interesting article asking the question, is any publicity good publicity. The conclusion is no, unless the entity receiving bad publicity seizes upon the opportunity to turn the situation around.

http://www.veronikanoize.com/is_all_publicity_good_

Quote:
But what about the bad stuff--negative publicity?  Isn't that the stuff that closes restaurants, keeps people from eating beef, and drives political candidates from public office?  Well, yes it is, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.  I look at negative publicity as an opportunity, which is how I want all my clients to look at it.  The public loves a good comeback story, and is usually willing to give an errant underdog a second (or third or fourth or--you get the idea) chance, but only if the problem is handled correctly. In that case, it can mean a media bonanza!
 
Remember that when you receive negative publicity, you can do something about the situation that caused the bad press in the first place, and what you do becomes newsworthy.  You can plead ignorance if you have to, apologize, ask forgiveness, and pledge to redeem yourself or whatever needs fixing in the situation. The public is amazingly forgiving, as long as you are sincere in your efforts to right whatever wrongs are attributed to you.  And in doing so, you may even take advantage of that opportunity to let the world know a little about you, your story, your struggles, and the challenges you've faced as an entrepreneur. 

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 57):
Thank you!

You're welcome!

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 57):
I don't believe they have any moral obligation to do so.

Great. Good for you. Don't know what saying it over and over solves. We simply disagree. I believe in the medical phenomenon of behavioral contagion, and you don't. Whoopie. I guess you deny the phenomenon of people re-enacting violent scenes learned on television or in video games as well, even though it happens.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9807 posts, RR: 26
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1956 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 60):
I believe in the medical phenomenon of behavioral contagion, and you don't. Whoopie. I guess you deny the phenomenon of people re-enacting violent scenes learned on television or in video games as well, even though it happens.

No, I'll repeat it again because you don't seem to get it. I fully believe that events seen on TV etc. get re-enacted. I just don't believe the TV show/producers/writers/whomever are, or should be held, responsible.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 62, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 61):
I fully believe that events seen on TV etc. get re-enacted.

Thank you for clarifying your earlier remarks.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 46):
You don't generally live a perfectly normal, healthy, happy life, then see a Hyundai ad, and kill yourself.
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 57):
And I'm firmly of the opinion that Hyundai will not have caused any suicides, or even been a significant cause of any suicides.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 63, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 55):
The difference is that BP actually caused some tangible damage. Hyundai's ad doesn't actually hurt anyone or anything.

I'm not really sure that tanglible vs intangible has anything to do with it, I think it has to do with impressing people or pissing them off.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 55):
Hyundai already makes most people go "meh."

Historically it has but the new Elantras have done great. Me and my wife both have one each, and I know a lot of people getting them. Very highly rated, good car. Can't vouch for the rest of them

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 59):
but you sure wouldn't suddenly condone my behavior or consider it acceptable for human beings to treat each other without empathy. You would probably continue to speak out to encourage the behavior that you want to see, as you have done here.

That is all I am doing (both here and in the previous 'heroin addict' thread). Why the double standard?

Well one, sorry if I sounded harsh. I was in a pretty blunt mood earlier today for some reason. But I think what you are getting at and what I'm talking about are two different things. I'm not condoning suicide at all, just as I don't condone when a mentally ill person does something bad. But just as we have ways of dealing with mentally ill people (treating them instead of just throwing them in jail,) we have different ways of dealing with suicidal people. We don't call them selfish and greedy, we hear them out and get them help because they are NOT in the right state of mind. Trying to reason with irrationality just doesn't work

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 59):
using the legitimate behavior modification tool called "shame" if necessary.

And again, that is where I disagree (although I used to think like you.) Shame is definitely not the way to deal with suicidal folks. It may work for some, but a more effective way is some empathy and getting them help. That doesn't mean coddle them and say that what they're doing is ok because it's not.

There are many posters on here, so I apologize if I'm mixing you up, but aren't you/weren't you in the military? The military has been putting us through a million suicide classes because the suicide rate is at an all time high for the military (especially the Army and Marines.) You find some very selfless, smart, and brave people killing themselves in the military... very much different from the suicidal stereotype we've built up, especially in the macho military. Part of what they've been teaching us is that it affects some of the strongest and bravest we have and it's very common... most importantly, to be blunt, not to be a dick and to be there for them and get them help.

No where did they say (or I am saying) that suicide is ok and I'm not condoning it. I think Hyundai is getting flack because people are starting to realize that suicide isn't just some selfish act but a real mental problem that can affect pretty much anyone



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 64, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1898 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 59):
If you don't believe that, then explain to me how cognitive therapies are so effective.

They can be effective, in some situations, with some people. You have taken the fact that they are one useful tool and used it as proof that all suicidal people are suicidal owing to a lack of such treatment. Specious, simplistic and inaccurate reasoning I'm afraid. There's no 'one size fits all' in these matters.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 59):
using the legitimate behavior modification tool called "shame" if necessary.

A lovely thought, but when mentally ill and overwhelmed by pain, and you don't intend to wake up from whatever it is you plan to do, shame really doesn't enter the equation. If anything, it might encourage people to take the ultimate step instead of speaking out and being 'shamed'.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 59):
The guy who properly understands his obligations is more likely to go in for help early instead of indulging whatever self-centered thoughts and feelings eventually lead to suicide

Some guys who do understand a lot of what's happening to them do seek help quite early, and yet still continue to decline for an array of complex reasons. Self-centred I guess is fair, because the truly suicidal generally don't think of others. That's not necessarily because they want it that way, or choose to in some deliberately-selfish decision process. When deprived of a huge chunk of your rational decision-making abilities by illness, it's not necessarily fair to describe these 'choices' in ordinary, sane terms. Again, I'm sorry but you show a huge lack of understanding and compassion about what it really is to experience these issues. If you have by any chance had first-hand experience here then I guess all I can say is that everyone's experience is different to some extent or another. There are very few easy answers. If there were, people wouldn't continue to kill themselves in spite of the fact that they deeply love many other people.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 65, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 63):
Shame is definitely not the way to deal with suicidal folks. It may work for some, but a more effective way is some empathy and getting them help. That doesn't mean coddle them and say that what they're doing is ok because it's not.

Just to be clear, I don't mean using 'shame' as a tactic on the individual who is imminently suicidal. What I am talking about is changing the message about suicide in society. Right now the situation is one where we stigmatize people who proactively seek mental health treatment and practically glorify those who commit suicide (particularly if they are famous). We treat them as though they had a completely involuntary disease as opposed to a combination of chemical problems in their brain and defective thinking and attitudes. I disagree with this. Suicidal people own their situation to some degree...they don't just wake up one day completely unable to resist the urge to kill themselves.

What I advocate is a society that considers suicide to be such a cowardly and selfish act that a person starting to go down the road of self destruction might see seeking mental health care as a better alternative. Collective attitudes toward issues like this matter and do impact people's behaviors. On the other hand, seeing people as powerless to decide their own fates has never been helpful. If we want to see resilience we have to be champions for it.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 64):
Again, I'm sorry but you show a huge lack of understanding and compassion about what it really is to experience these issues.

I'm actually very compassionate, but in this case it's directed toward those who have to pick up the pieces after a suicide - the families, friends, etc. A husband and father killing himself because he can't deal with his own pain is fucking ridiculous and we ought to call it exactly what it is. We ought to cultivate such an aversion to it that all the husbands and fathers out there starting to have problems would rather seek mental help or tackle their problems head on than be the object of such scorn.

And I'm tired of the constant message that people with mental problems - whether it's addiction or suicide - are somehow not accountable for what happens to them and those around them because it's an 'illness'. That may be true in some cases but to put it out there as some sort of general disclaimer is abdicating our responsibility to (to the best of our ability) choose a constructive and appropriate response to what happens to us. I think we sell ourselves short.

I don't expect people to agree with me, but thanks for listening.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 66, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1802 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65):
A husband and father killing himself because he can't deal with his own pain is fucking ridiculous and we ought to call it exactly what it is. We ought to cultivate such an aversion to it that all the husbands and fathers out there starting to have problems would rather seek mental help or tackle their problems head on than be the object of such scorn.

It's not ridiculous, it's extremely sad. Again, what makes you think that getting help always stops people from still getting to the stage that they totally lose control? Some people engage fully, but psychiatry and other supports are not always all that they could be, and are not an exact science by any measure.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65):
And I'm tired of the constant message that people with mental problems - whether it's addiction or suicide - are somehow not accountable for what happens to them and those around them because it's an 'illness'. That may be true in some cases but to put it out there as some sort of general disclaimer is abdicating our responsibility to (to the best of our ability) choose a constructive and appropriate response to what happens to us.

I never said that abdication of responsibility is acceptable as such, but you hit the nail on the head to some extent here with the 'to the best of our ability' comment. In any event, suicide is already frowned upon significantly enough to pretty much prove that 'shaming' and disapproving really do little to make a difference when the chips are down. Have you ever spent time with people that are seriously mentally ill? Have you been around people with a range of different mental illnesses and states? If you did then I would suggest you might start to feel a little differently about this.

Understand please that it's not that I don't see where you're coming from, or understand why you hold the views you do. It's just that as I said, there are just so many variables in people's experiences that it's really not reasonable to generalise to such a degree about levels of direct responsibility or choice. One person may be calm and calculated about it, another may be suffering huge delusions , hallucations and generally insantity to the extent that they are incapable, completely incapable, of making informed, rational choices about anything. And then there are a million and one combinations and shades of grey between those extremes.

It's good that you're discussing it though, and I don't mean to be judgemental or dismissive about your views. They may well apply to some people/situations, but most certainly can't/don't to others.



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User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 67, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1776 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65):
Right now the situation is one where we stigmatize people who proactively seek mental health treatment and practically glorify those who commit suicide (particularly if they are famous)

Agree with the first part, but I'm at a lost for what you're saying in your second part. I don't see any glorification, none at all

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65):
What I advocate is a society that considers suicide to be such a cowardly and selfish act that a person starting to go down the road of self destruction might see seeking mental health care as a better alternative.

If you are depressed you are already thinking irrationally, even before you consider the "road to suicide." I don't see how more shame and villianification of suicide is going to do anything. People are already willing to kill themselves knowing they are leaving their families behind which is huge, I don't think they're gonna care about the extra shame and stigma surrounding suicide.

I get where you are going, but I don't think the strategy you're condoning is a good one. No one in our society sees suicide as a valid way out, so why beat a dead horse? Remove the stigma surrounding mental health help, that today is seen as shameful or that you are crazy when all it is is taking responsibility for yourself and dealing with a problem you know you cannot handle... not just macho it out

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65):
And I'm tired of the constant message that people with mental problems - whether it's addiction or suicide - are somehow not accountable for what happens to them and those around them because it's an 'illness'. That may be true in some cases but to put it out there as some sort of general disclaimer is abdicating our responsibility to (to the best of our ability) choose a constructive and appropriate response to what happens to us. I think we sell ourselves short.

I still don't see what excusing you're seeing. We tell families that dad still loved you, he was obviously in a wrong state of mind (which he was) and couldn't think straight (which is true) so don't harbor a deep hate for him forever. Also added is what he did was not right. More importantly, the message I see afterwards is to reach out others who may be suffering from the same illness and how to police yourself before you go down the same road of distruction.

Suicide, however, is not condoned, just like a mentally ill person murdering people isn't. You just obviously have to deal with it differently, that isn't being unfair



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User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11219 posts, RR: 52
Reply 68, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 52):
Quoting D L X (Reply 51):
What do you think happens to the TV show when everyone, or even just a sizable portion of the audience turns it off when they see this commercial?

They don't see the ad.

Uhh...

did you read my question? Please take another look at what I wrote.

If people SEE THE AD and respond by CHANGING THE CHANNEL, what do you think happens to the TV show? Do you think it makes more money, or less money?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 52):
It got plenty of people to think and talk about Hyundai for several minutes more than they would have otherwise.

Yeah, they're thinking about how they'd never buy a Hyundai. Only a sociopath would see this ad and be more inclined to buy a Hyundai.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 52):
Quoting D L X (Reply 51):
Want proof? They took the ad down.

But it served its purpose.

Sounds like you are completely unaware of the ad's purpose.



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User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9807 posts, RR: 26
Reply 69, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1657 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65):
What I advocate is a society that considers suicide to be such a cowardly and selfish act that a person starting to go down the road of self destruction might see seeking mental health care as a better alternative.

But if you're dead, you don't have to deal with it being a cowardly and selfish act.....

Shaming people can quite readily push them toward suicide, rather than away from it.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 70, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1656 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 68):
If people SEE THE AD and respond by CHANGING THE CHANNEL, what do you think happens to the TV show? Do you think it makes more money, or less money?

It makes the same amount of money, the ad time is already sold. The only way the show would make less money is if people don't watch next time because they fear seeing a particular ad, and I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone actually does that.

Quoting D L X (Reply 68):
Yeah, they're thinking about how they'd never buy a Hyundai. Only a sociopath would see this ad and be more inclined to buy a Hyundai.

It doesn't need to show all the cool features of the car, simply getting people to know it exists is a victory for the ad. It does that, and makes a relevant point about the car even if it's in an unpleasant way.



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User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 71, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1647 times:
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Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 69):
But if you're dead, you don't have to deal with it being a cowardly and selfish act.....

Shaming people can quite readily push them toward suicide, rather than away from it.

   Exactly.

While there are some instances of the classic 'cry for help' where the attempt might not be too serious, I will confess that the two times I attempted suicide, I fully intended not to come back from it, and by all accounts there's no way I should have been able to. Astonished, I think would best describe the doctors in the post-recovery medical de-briefing. My relatives had been told on more than one occasion that they should prepare for the worst. And on that note, while I can't help but feel like a completely different person now, I have to take responsibility for what I did and live with the fact that I caused such deep anguish to those I love, and that's not an easy thing to have in your mind all day, every day. The fact that they love me and I love them makes it harder to bear the more established my recovery becomes and the stronger I get, but I try not to dwell on that and accept the forgiveness and love shown to me in the spirit it is offered. It's by no means that I don't take responsibility for everything (though there are others who played their part, but I can't go into that), but regardless of the facts, my memory of that overall period of time is so significantly impaired (I'm talking about at least six months that I can only very partly remember), and looking back it feels totally unreal that I really did it. To be perfectly honest, it feels like someone did it to me, even though factually I know that's not true, but it does highlight quite starkly the fact that people's mindsets and capacities to act rationally can vary hugely during extended, dark periods in one's life. And I, by the way, had started receiving help, help which I sought voluntarily, about a year before the first attempt. The bottom line is that no professional is a mind reader, and also that while one day you are being totally honest about your feelings and telling medical professionals about how it really is and how you feel, the next day you wake up almost a different person with a completely different outlook on things. It's very hard to adequately explain it, but I never in my wildest dreams thought it would come to that, and was getting all the help that was available in my particular western country, but it still happened. When I woke up I was furiously upset to have done so, feeling robbed of the final solution that had seemed so intensely necessary for one awful brief time (well, followed some time later by a similar episode). I should have thought of others, but just couldn't. It's not that I chose not to, but whether anyone chooses to believe this or not, I simply could not see past the worst agony I was ever feeling. I feel fine now, not amazing every day, but generally stable, functional, rational and fine - but it scares me stupid to look back and see how quickly and easily a convergance of nasty circumstances could send me spiralling down to near-catastrophe. To this day, it's all just totally mind-blowing and unreal, and I am reminded of the consequences every time I speak to those I love. In a way it's helpful, but it's not shaming that helps - it's understanding, love and support that really make the difference.

I was lucky enough to survive, not that I immediately saw it like that in the hospital, but I will never forget it all and neither will a large network of my friends and family. There's a lot one has to take on the chin in life about throw-away jokes and comments about suicide, and that is fine, but for wide audiences there is no excuse for those in a position of trust, such as those making adverts, making fun of a subject that simply is nothing to joke about or exploit for your own selfish ends.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9807 posts, RR: 26
Reply 72, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1632 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Reply 71):
And on that note, while I can't help but feel like a completely different person now, I have to take responsibility for what I did and live with the fact that I caused such deep anguish to those I love, and that's not an easy thing to have in your mind all day, every day. The fact that they love me and I love them makes it harder to bear the more established my recovery becomes and the stronger I get, but I try not to dwell on that and accept the forgiveness and love shown to me in the spirit it is offered.

Ain't that the truth. I've never attempted suicide, but I went through a bad couple of years of addiction, and that's absolutely the hardest thing to deal with - the anguish through which I put a lot of other people.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - desperation is the worst emotion, bar none, that I've ever felt. I'm eternally grateful that I managed to pull myself out of that spiral (with a lot of help, of course) before it got down to the level of considering suicide.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 71):
In a way it's helpful, but it's not shaming that helps - it's understanding, love and support that really make the difference.

  



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 73, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1629 times:
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Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 72):
Ain't that the truth. I've never attempted suicide, but I went through a bad couple of years of addiction, and that's absolutely the hardest thing to deal with - the anguish through which I put a lot of other people.

Sorry to hear that.

The thing is I know it was wrong, I always knew suicide was wrong, but castigating me for it would have just made things worse - absolutely no doubt about it.

There just isn't really any kind of up side to this sort of thing and it causes huge suffering, which is fundamentally what makes it inappropriate material for promoting products.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 74, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 73):
The thing is I know it was wrong, I always knew suicide was wrong, but castigating me for it would have just made things worse - absolutely no doubt about it.

I will take your word for that!

I think the truth is that a healthy level of guilt about the impact to my family if I were to punch out is much of what "keeps me at my post" here...sure as hell isn't enthusiasm about the future. But in hindsight it was erroneous for me to generalize my experience to everyone else out there so I see your point.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1350 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 71):
I have to take responsibility for what I did and live with the fact that I caused such deep anguish to those I love, and that's not an easy thing to have in your mind all day, every day. The fact that they love me and I love them makes it harder to bear the more established my recovery becomes and the stronger I get, but I try not to dwell on that and accept the forgiveness and love shown to me in the spirit it is offered.

Yeah, and you shouldn't dwell on that part; they're your family after all. Nor should their love make it harder to bear. I'll say the same thing I told my sister when she tried to off herself a few years back.

Yes, there's no question that you put your family through a good deal of torment and grief, and we all wish we didn't have to go through that. But we're your family; that's what we do. 'Love' means we have to wade with you through the bullshit sometimes, because that's the way it is. We'd rather go through that again a hundred more times than lose you for good, and no illness can separate you from that.

I hope you heard something like that from your folks too.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 71):
I should have thought of others, but just couldn't. It's not that I chose not to, but whether anyone chooses to believe this or not, I simply could not see past the worst agony I was ever feeling.

Of course you couldn't. No more than you can remember to take the dog for a walk when your skin is on fire. This suffering is real, and we as human beings have limitations. These times are when those around us mean the most.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 71):
In a way it's helpful, but it's not shaming that helps - it's understanding, love and support that really make the difference.

Absolutely. If we want a social attitude that is based on shame for these things, we can always ask Japan how that works out for them. To this day there are still situations where Sepuku is expected...

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 73):

The thing is I know it was wrong, I always knew suicide was wrong, but castigating me for it would have just made things worse - absolutely no doubt about it.

Yup. And it's good that that didn't happen to you, else your participation here would be a lot less likely. I hope things are a lot better for you these days.

And just think, now that you're still here, your experience may save someone else's life one day too!



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User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 76, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1539 times:
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Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 74):
But in hindsight it was erroneous for me to generalize my experience to everyone else out there so I see your point.

Thanks for that - much appreciated.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 75):
Yeah, and you shouldn't dwell on that part; they're your family after all. Nor should their love make it harder to bear. I'll say the same thing I told my sister when she tried to off herself a few years back.

Indeed you're right, and they don't hold it against me in any way. It's just that I know what I put them through, and while they understand, it's hard to forgive myself fully. I do try not to dwell on it though. Your words are also much appreciated.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 75):
Yup. And it's good that that didn't happen to you, else your participation here would be a lot less likely. I hope things are a lot better for you these days.

Things are a lot better thanks, yes. I never take time off sick, haven't for a long time - I just try to view it as a very bad six months out of a very long employment which otherwise has seen exemplary attendance records.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 75):
And just think, now that you're still here, your experience may save someone else's life one day too!

I hope it will. I have spent time coaching others who feel suicidal and certainly feel that it has made a big difference to them.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
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