Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Microsoft To Reverse Directions On Windows 8  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12558 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

FT says:

Quote:

“Key aspects” of how the software is used will be changed when Microsoft releases an updated version of the operating system this year, Tami Reller, head of marketing and finance for the Windows business, said in an interview with the Financial Times. Referring to difficulties many users have had with mastering the software, she added: “The learning curve is definitely real.”

Lots of 'mea culpa' here, as well as some analysis of what this means for Steve Ballmer's position.

IMHO the decision to ship software that makes users use desktops as if they were tablets was stupid, stupid, stupid. What was M$ thinking?


Inspiration, move me brightly!
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

I hope they stick to what they used to have. Apple has definitely taken a big chunk of the PC market, and PCs in general are declining in the era of tablets, but Microsoft still has a great operating system and packages for businesses. We may see more Apple in the future, but Microsoft is still the OS of choice for businesses. I'd hate to see them ditch all that to chase after Apple and do a worse job at it...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3120 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
packages for businesses.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
OS of choice for businesses.

And they should focus on that. The consumer market for PC is dead.

When I use windows i use it for business and to be productive, Its a work tool and i can care less how "pretty" it is.

I need to print, receive email, word, excel, power point. I HATE that Microsoft changes how the basics work. The print menu changes, the location of format and tools bars. for what reason?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Where they screwed up is in imposing the new menus without a choice. The basic OS is very similar to 7, with improvements, so it could look the same without needing any work. Then they could offer the new "dumbed down" interface on top of it, it has even some relevance on laptops, some of which now ship with a touch screen. But in the enterprise world (where I'm a computer tech) Windows 8 is just not it. Unlike any previous Windows OS, we have nobody from the company asking us a new Windows 8 computer or that we install it on their machine, a dead giveaway that something is wrong.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I hope they stick to what they used to have. Apple has definitely taken a big chunk of the PC market, and PCs in general are declining in the era of tablets, but Microsoft still has a great operating system and packages for businesses. We may see more Apple in the future, but Microsoft is still the OS of choice for businesses. I'd hate to see them ditch all that to chase after Apple and do a worse job at it...

I wouldn't call less than 10% a big chunk. And as the PC market shrinks I'm not sure Apple can really gain in it, because less software will be targeted at the PC, so if you have to choose you will develop for windows, not OSX.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3044 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Good - because I won't touch it with a bargepole until it acts and looks like a desktop. It's horrible.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

Rather amusing that Tami is quoted saying that she's not quite sure what people mean when they say they want the start button back. Really Tami? You're going to go with that?

It's real simple. Desktop opens at turn on and start button is in the bottom left corner. You know, like every other version of Windows...

If she doesn't get that, then she needs to find a new job because she's just dumb.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3376 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2948 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
IMHO the decision to ship software that makes users use desktops as if they were tablets was stupid, stupid, stupid. What was M$ thinking?

The new features are not bad even though they require a learning curve. What they should do is have the desktop tile run like any version of Windows since Win95 where you can access the start menu and all the common config items Windows users are used to. Basically that should be exactly like Win 7 with a few changes.

That is what turned me off Win 8 is that I have to re-learn how to install drivers and make configuration settings. I know I can re-learn it but it has been the same for 18 years. The good thing is knowing MS every other OS is good with a bust in between.

- 98 good
- ME crap
- XP good
- Vista, the consensus is crap but I thought it was better than XP for me.
- 7 food
- 8 crap



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2869 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
- Vista, the consensus is crap but I thought it was better than XP for me.

Wow, that's interesting. In what way did you find it better? For the prevailing hardware of the time, it was bloated, sluggish and resource-hungry. XP on the other hand would run like a swift on steroids on fairly meagre setups, and was very simple and easy to use in terms of appearance etc.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinevarigb707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2843 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
- 98 good
- ME crap
- XP good
- Vista, the consensus is crap but I thought it was better than XP for me.
- 7 food

I've used all the above. XP and 7 are the best. As far as MS, I've had it with it. I currently have 3 notebooks (as seen in other post) : 1 - XP, 1 - Vista upgraded to 7 and 1 - 7 . As soon as those are gone, i'm buying a Mac. I'm already using an iPad.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12558 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2840 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
The new features are not bad even though they require a learning curve. What they should do is have the desktop tile run like any version of Windows since Win95 where you can access the start menu and all the common config items Windows users are used to. Basically that should be exactly like Win 7 with a few changes.

They really should have made both UIs available and had the default be the Win7 environment for desktops and servers.

This ain't hard in the modern world. Linux has let the user pick the UI and related rendering stacks for years and years.

All MS had to do was come up with two main environments and perhaps some sets of customizations that would make either one take on various aspects of the other.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!

Sadly the ones from M$ rule a pretty large part of it, and aren't doing a great job.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Sadly the ones from M$ rule a pretty large part of it, and aren't doing a great job.

Shhh ... they're keeping the rest of in business with that approach 

D.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3376 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Wow, that's interesting. In what way did you find it better? For the prevailing hardware of the time, it was bloated, sluggish and resource-hungry.

On a system that I got in 2005 and upgraded in 2007 it ran just as well and loaded faster even with the enhanced graphics. Some bugs has to be taken care of regarding drivers but I was happy with it. Furthermore when the SP's came out for Vista a lot of the junk was removed.

The only upgrade I did was an additional stick of RAM a few months later.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

I discovered Vista recently while getting my computer maintenance diploma (I had stayed clear of it personally), we used the latest media available with the service packs integrated, and I thought it ran fine, pretty similar to 7 really, except some menus were different (Microsoft ought to stop doing such changes, really annoying).


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25329 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
XP on the other hand would run like a swift on steroids on fairly meagre setups, and was very simple and easy to use in terms of appearance etc.

I expect many people are like me and are holding off replacing old computers because they don't want Windows 8. PC makers must not be happy with that situation.

I have a 7 year old Toshiba laptop that's always worked perfectly. All I've done is add additional RAM. However in the past month the screen started acting up and recently died completely. It still boots up normally but just can't see anything.

It's not worth fixing so now I'm using it with a separate monitor plugged in which is fine since I normally use it at a desk anyway. If it wasn't for Windows 8 I'd replace the laptop but I'd rather keep using XP as long as possible since it does everything I need and I'm familiar with it. I believe Microsoft plans to stop supporting XP sometime next year.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2407 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Wow, that's interesting. In what way did you find it better? For the prevailing hardware of the time, it was bloated, sluggish and resource-hungry. XP on the other hand would run like a swift on steroids on fairly meagre setups, and was very simple and easy to use in terms of appearance etc.

Actually I remember how XP was also very sluggish on the prevailing hardware at the time it was released. Nothing changed in that aspect.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2536 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 14):
Actually I remember how XP was also very sluggish on the prevailing hardware at the time it was released. Nothing changed in that aspect.

I guess maybe my impressions were based on the fact that XP had quite a long innings, and saw much hardware development during its reign.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I hope they stick to what they used to have. Apple has definitely taken a big chunk of the PC market, and PCs in general are declining in the era of tablets, but Microsoft still has a great operating system and packages for businesses. We may see more Apple in the future, but Microsoft is still the OS of choice for businesses. I'd hate to see them ditch all that to chase after Apple and do a worse job at it...

If Apple were to ever release OSX to operate on third-party PC platforms, Windows would be toast.

For that matter, if Apple priced their computers more closely to equivalent PCs, they'd eat up market share as well.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2344 times:

It would not be that easy, Microsoft has a huge advantage in the fact that 99% of all software made runs on windows, not on any other OS.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2310 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 16):
If Apple were to ever release OSX to operate on third-party PC platforms, Windows would be toast.

I think you have it backwards. Apple's OS is relatively easy to design for because they control the hardware it works on. Windows has to be designed for the many thousands of generic motherboards, drives, etc. making literally millions of possible hardware combinations.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 16):
For that matter, if Apple priced their computers more closely to equivalent PCs, they'd eat up market share as well.

They already price their Macs pretty much the same as equivalent PCs, and they have indeed been eating up market share for many years already.

The thing is just that relatively few people actually buy PCs equivalent to Macs – most PC buyers go for cheaply made ones Apple doesn't even compete against and don't even know (or care) about the better PCs.

That Apple is not just outgrowing the PC market (and thus gaining share) but on top of that still reaping more profits just from their Mac sales than the five(!) most profitable PC manufacturers combined is an indication that their strategy isn't so bad all in all.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
I think you have it backwards. Apple's OS is relatively easy to design for because they control the hardware it works on. Windows has to be designed for the many thousands of generic motherboards, drives, etc. making literally millions of possible hardware combinations.

That's an age-old excuse, but none of the fundamental flaws in Windows' conceptual design and execution are in any way related to that marginal aspect.

Windows 8 is just the most recent example of the cluelessness at Microsoft regarding fundamental issues. In this case being that Ballmer apparently believed Apple's massive iPad profits had to be a sign that people were clamoring for Windows mashed together with a mobile user interface, without really bothering to pursue a deeper understanding of what people actually wanted, what they needed and why.

Microsoft always had some islands of competent implementation – but generally within an ocean of shortsighted fiddling around and muddling through without much inspiration about where to go.

I've never been a fan of the Metro UI, but I concede that it's a competent execution of an uncharacteristically independent idea. The overall operating system concept of Windows 8/RT is just again completely botched and likely driven more by Ballmer's shortsighted perspective than by anyone really thinking things through.

Windows 8 costs Microsoft (and the dependent PC manufacturers) a lot of momentum. They will certainly survive this in one form or another, but their level of relevance for the further course of the IT industry at large has declined precipitously, and I see little chance of them reversing this trend anytime soon.

Firing Ballmer would have to be one of the first steps, but even that only makes sense if they've got someone else with a clue, which is not as simple as it may look.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2284 times:

I switched to Windows from the Mac because of Windows 8. It's that good.

It runs faster than any Windows OS before it.
It has the most advanced UI of any Windows OS before it.
It starts up faster than any Windows OS before it.
It is a more refined OS than any Windows OS before it and equals and sometimes exceeds Mac OS.

It does *not* have that dumb Start menu - which was what finally gave me the nudge to switch. Good riddance.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Microsoft always had some islands of competent implementation – but generally within an ocean of shortsighted fiddling around and muddling through without much inspiration about where to go.

Hey, for only sometimes getting some things right, they're doing pretty well.

2012 (all numbers in $MM):
Revenue: $72,723
Operating Income: $21,763
Net Income: $16,978

I guess my life goal is to have some islands of simply competent implementation in my life.

Note: I'm sure you will come back with Apple's numbers, however to do so would be completely missing my point. I'll let you figure out why.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12558 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2199 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Windows 8 is just the most recent example of the cluelessness at Microsoft regarding fundamental issues. In this case being that Ballmer apparently believed Apple's massive iPad profits had to be a sign that people were clamoring for Windows mashed together with a mobile user interface, without really bothering to pursue a deeper understanding of what people actually wanted, what they needed and why.

It's well known that M$ tried to do its own not-quite-Windows mobile OS for years and it was a failure.

One of the main things held against it was that it was not-quite-WIndows.

Now M$ went for the it-really-is-Windows, and IMHO also failed, because they were so heavy handed about the desktop remake.

M$ felt the best way to let people know there was this metro UI was to force it onto the desktop without preserving many of the usability features people were used to having.

Indeed this reeks of an executive decision done without any true insight nor any benefit of unbiased study of actual user behavior.

All they would have to do is hand a bunch of W8 machines to a bunch of W7 or earlier users and just step back and listen for all the WTFs coming from them.

To me that speaks to the corporate insular thinking that has been a characteristic of M$ for the last decade or more. They themselves decided what W8 was going to be years ago, they marched to that plan, they spent $$$ doing a beta program that would have told them that people hated it (or if not, they picked the wrong beta testers!) and now they have to do this embarrassing 'mea culpa' and reverse directions.

To me the bottom line is that W8 is tarnished. Instead of being praised for whatever improvements it brought to the table, it's being damned for some blatantly obvious issues that should have been dealt with before release.

This means to a large degree the money they put into advertising it to try to make it gain popularity was for naught. Instead we have lots of people talking about how every other Win release is crap, and W8 is the latest example of such.

[Edited 2013-05-14 04:54:25]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2190 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):

When I use windows i use it for business and to be productive, Its a work tool and i can care less how "pretty" it is.

I recall a quote from an analyst many years ago (name escapes me...) : "Apple sells you a lifestyle, Microsoft sells you a tool." Although retired, I'm consulting, so I'll take the tool over the lifestyle.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):
I need to print, receive email, word, excel, power point. I HATE that Microsoft changes how the basics work. The print menu changes, the location of format and tools bars. for what reason?

I agree. In business you want consistency in evolution to evolution of any given OS. To just arbitrarily change things strikes me as poor policy.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12558 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2186 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
"Apple sells you a lifestyle, Microsoft sells you a tool." Although retired, I'm consulting, so I'll take the tool over the lifestyle.

It seems there's more people out there looking for that lifestyle vs looking for a tool.

Seems M$ is trying to reach that broader audience, and failing.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 Post contains images Rara : That's a blast from the past! I didn't even know people still did that. Haven't seen it for years. It's amusing how much we all vilified Microsoft ba
26 Post contains images Klaus : They had been handed their OS monopoly on a silver platter by a thoroughly clueless IBM – IBM opened all the doors Microsoft then only had to walk
27 garnetpalmetto : When you have legions of semi-zombified fanboys gushing over you, it's not that hard for your sins to be whitewashed.
28 Post contains images connies4ever : Shows you how shallow many people can be. McDonald's sell a kajillion burgers every year. Doesn't mean they're any good.
29 Klaus : It's still an interesting effect that Apple's detractors tend to go for stereotypical personal attacks against users of Apple products instead of offe
30 cmf : Why are you using so many stereotypical attacks in your statement and then complain about other using stereotypical arguments against you?
31 Klaus : Could you please point out and quote any personal attacks on users of other systems in my posts? That this is so extremely asymmetrical is the puzzli
32 Revelation : Back in the day, M$ was vilified for its hard-core capitalist approach to the computer, mainly because so much of the user base back then were hobbyi
33 Aesma : Apple is making boatloads of money and are very far from being monopolistic so there is no reason to attack the company. That doesn't mean that fanboy
34 Post contains images Rara : Yet Microsoft has always aimed to create open ecosystems. Windows has been designed to run on as many different systems as possible, to allow all kin
35 cmf : I said stereotypical attacks. I did not say personal attacks. Attacks do not need to be personal. They can be against products and companies too.
36 Revelation : Perhaps on the hardware side, but their approach towards selling software has always had a strong anti-competitive component. They used bundling tech
37 Post contains images Rara : Come on. Apple manufactures a computer, namely the iPad (and yes it is a computer, even though due to the lack of a physical keyboard, we call it a t
38 Post contains images tugger : Ah yes, but this is only because Microsoft had essentially monopoly control of the market. And Apple does not have that type or level of control yet.
39 Revelation : However you knew that when you bought said computer. In the case of M$, they offered undocumented discounts to hardware vendors if and only if they i
40 Boeing717200 : I'm not going to stand on the mountain top and defend Microsoft, but "withering dominance"? They have 87% of the market.
41 StarAC17 : I don't think so for numerous reasons. It wouldl face the same issues that Windows faces with hardware conflicts regarding drivers and the use of a w
42 Flighty : Apple's product value proposition is still quite different. Apple isn't selling a bunch of circuits. They are selling a "friend" -- the equipment and
43 Rara : They allow the shell of Firefox and Chrome, but the browser engine has to be WebKit, i.e. Safari. In other words, it looks like Chrome from the outsi
44 Aesma : They also ban apps and games that have a political message, denouncing exploitation of cheap labor in Asia for example...
45 Braniff747SP : They allow several browsers, as others have said. Chrome, iCab, Firefox, and I think Opera came out with an app.
46 LTBEWR : I just got a new computer with Windows 8 (as a nasty virus wrecked my 3 year old unit) I am not happy with it. Very confusing although I do like the s
47 Boeing717200 : On the quick boot, wait until it boots to a blank profile. That will set you off.
48 AirPacific747 : I think Windows 8 would be awesome on a computer with a touchscreen, Without touchscreen, it is close to being useless.
49 Aesma : Apparently there will be a Windows 8.1 codename "Blue". Launched in late October so one year after 8, and at the usual date for Windows launches (I no
50 garnetpalmetto : That's what this thread is about, Aesma. “Key aspects” of how the software is used will be changed when Microsoft releases an updated version of
51 Revelation : I'm wondering if a similar thing happens with Android and MP3 player apps ie different shells for the same common media player core. I've tried a num
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Irate Straphanger Tries To Stab Woman On Subway.. posted Mon Dec 3 2012 20:09:22 by alberchico
Best Way To Run Windows On Mac posted Mon Jul 30 2012 00:19:39 by Coal
Rumor #12864: Verizon To Get IPhone On 1/11 posted Fri Jan 7 2011 15:08:30 by ALTF4
Demand Media Allows Users To Be Spied On? posted Sun Aug 15 2010 09:07:54 by greasespot
Atheists Seek To Arrest Pope On His Visit To UK posted Mon Apr 12 2010 04:39:13 by TheCommodore
Opinions On Windows 7? posted Sun Nov 8 2009 05:57:22 by Ps76
LHR To Central London On Christmas Day posted Thu Oct 8 2009 07:04:46 by SiouxATC
2011 Ford Explorer To Be Based On Taurus Platform posted Mon Feb 23 2009 18:44:23 by StasisLAX
Up To 500 Stuck On Lake Erie Iceberg posted Sat Feb 7 2009 15:57:02 by KC135TopBoom
Video Tribute To The QE2 On Her Last Voyage posted Sun Nov 23 2008 19:52:11 by 747400sp