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Microsoft To Reverse Directions On Windows 8  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11933 posts, RR: 25
Posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

FT says:

Quote:

“Key aspects” of how the software is used will be changed when Microsoft releases an updated version of the operating system this year, Tami Reller, head of marketing and finance for the Windows business, said in an interview with the Financial Times. Referring to difficulties many users have had with mastering the software, she added: “The learning curve is definitely real.”

Lots of 'mea culpa' here, as well as some analysis of what this means for Steve Ballmer's position.

IMHO the decision to ship software that makes users use desktops as if they were tablets was stupid, stupid, stupid. What was M$ thinking?


Inspiration, move me brightly!
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

I hope they stick to what they used to have. Apple has definitely taken a big chunk of the PC market, and PCs in general are declining in the era of tablets, but Microsoft still has a great operating system and packages for businesses. We may see more Apple in the future, but Microsoft is still the OS of choice for businesses. I'd hate to see them ditch all that to chase after Apple and do a worse job at it...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6546 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3000 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
packages for businesses.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
OS of choice for businesses.

And they should focus on that. The consumer market for PC is dead.

When I use windows i use it for business and to be productive, Its a work tool and i can care less how "pretty" it is.

I need to print, receive email, word, excel, power point. I HATE that Microsoft changes how the basics work. The print menu changes, the location of format and tools bars. for what reason?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6114 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2942 times:

Where they screwed up is in imposing the new menus without a choice. The basic OS is very similar to 7, with improvements, so it could look the same without needing any work. Then they could offer the new "dumbed down" interface on top of it, it has even some relevance on laptops, some of which now ship with a touch screen. But in the enterprise world (where I'm a computer tech) Windows 8 is just not it. Unlike any previous Windows OS, we have nobody from the company asking us a new Windows 8 computer or that we install it on their machine, a dead giveaway that something is wrong.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I hope they stick to what they used to have. Apple has definitely taken a big chunk of the PC market, and PCs in general are declining in the era of tablets, but Microsoft still has a great operating system and packages for businesses. We may see more Apple in the future, but Microsoft is still the OS of choice for businesses. I'd hate to see them ditch all that to chase after Apple and do a worse job at it...

I wouldn't call less than 10% a big chunk. And as the PC market shrinks I'm not sure Apple can really gain in it, because less software will be targeted at the PC, so if you have to choose you will develop for windows, not OSX.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7636 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2924 times:
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Good - because I won't touch it with a bargepole until it acts and looks like a desktop. It's horrible.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 635 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Rather amusing that Tami is quoted saying that she's not quite sure what people mean when they say they want the start button back. Really Tami? You're going to go with that?

It's real simple. Desktop opens at turn on and start button is in the bottom left corner. You know, like every other version of Windows...

If she doesn't get that, then she needs to find a new job because she's just dumb.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3335 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
IMHO the decision to ship software that makes users use desktops as if they were tablets was stupid, stupid, stupid. What was M$ thinking?

The new features are not bad even though they require a learning curve. What they should do is have the desktop tile run like any version of Windows since Win95 where you can access the start menu and all the common config items Windows users are used to. Basically that should be exactly like Win 7 with a few changes.

That is what turned me off Win 8 is that I have to re-learn how to install drivers and make configuration settings. I know I can re-learn it but it has been the same for 18 years. The good thing is knowing MS every other OS is good with a bust in between.

- 98 good
- ME crap
- XP good
- Vista, the consensus is crap but I thought it was better than XP for me.
- 7 food
- 8 crap



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7636 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2749 times:
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Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
- Vista, the consensus is crap but I thought it was better than XP for me.

Wow, that's interesting. In what way did you find it better? For the prevailing hardware of the time, it was bloated, sluggish and resource-hungry. XP on the other hand would run like a swift on steroids on fairly meagre setups, and was very simple and easy to use in terms of appearance etc.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinevarigb707 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1362 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
- 98 good
- ME crap
- XP good
- Vista, the consensus is crap but I thought it was better than XP for me.
- 7 food

I've used all the above. XP and 7 are the best. As far as MS, I've had it with it. I currently have 3 notebooks (as seen in other post) : 1 - XP, 1 - Vista upgraded to 7 and 1 - 7 . As soon as those are gone, i'm buying a Mac. I'm already using an iPad.



"Hey Now!"
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11933 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
The new features are not bad even though they require a learning curve. What they should do is have the desktop tile run like any version of Windows since Win95 where you can access the start menu and all the common config items Windows users are used to. Basically that should be exactly like Win 7 with a few changes.

They really should have made both UIs available and had the default be the Win7 environment for desktops and servers.

This ain't hard in the modern world. Linux has let the user pick the UI and related rendering stacks for years and years.

All MS had to do was come up with two main environments and perhaps some sets of customizations that would make either one take on various aspects of the other.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!

Sadly the ones from M$ rule a pretty large part of it, and aren't doing a great job.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 714 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Sadly the ones from M$ rule a pretty large part of it, and aren't doing a great job.

Shhh ... they're keeping the rest of in business with that approach 

D.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3335 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Wow, that's interesting. In what way did you find it better? For the prevailing hardware of the time, it was bloated, sluggish and resource-hungry.

On a system that I got in 2005 and upgraded in 2007 it ran just as well and loaded faster even with the enhanced graphics. Some bugs has to be taken care of regarding drivers but I was happy with it. Furthermore when the SP's came out for Vista a lot of the junk was removed.

The only upgrade I did was an additional stick of RAM a few months later.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6114 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

I discovered Vista recently while getting my computer maintenance diploma (I had stayed clear of it personally), we used the latest media available with the service packs integrated, and I thought it ran fine, pretty similar to 7 really, except some menus were different (Microsoft ought to stop doing such changes, really annoying).


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24084 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
XP on the other hand would run like a swift on steroids on fairly meagre setups, and was very simple and easy to use in terms of appearance etc.

I expect many people are like me and are holding off replacing old computers because they don't want Windows 8. PC makers must not be happy with that situation.

I have a 7 year old Toshiba laptop that's always worked perfectly. All I've done is add additional RAM. However in the past month the screen started acting up and recently died completely. It still boots up normally but just can't see anything.

It's not worth fixing so now I'm using it with a separate monitor plugged in which is fine since I normally use it at a desk anyway. If it wasn't for Windows 8 I'd replace the laptop but I'd rather keep using XP as long as possible since it does everything I need and I'm familiar with it. I believe Microsoft plans to stop supporting XP sometime next year.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2315 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Wow, that's interesting. In what way did you find it better? For the prevailing hardware of the time, it was bloated, sluggish and resource-hungry. XP on the other hand would run like a swift on steroids on fairly meagre setups, and was very simple and easy to use in terms of appearance etc.

Actually I remember how XP was also very sluggish on the prevailing hardware at the time it was released. Nothing changed in that aspect.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7636 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2416 times:
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Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 14):
Actually I remember how XP was also very sluggish on the prevailing hardware at the time it was released. Nothing changed in that aspect.

I guess maybe my impressions were based on the fact that XP had quite a long innings, and saw much hardware development during its reign.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I hope they stick to what they used to have. Apple has definitely taken a big chunk of the PC market, and PCs in general are declining in the era of tablets, but Microsoft still has a great operating system and packages for businesses. We may see more Apple in the future, but Microsoft is still the OS of choice for businesses. I'd hate to see them ditch all that to chase after Apple and do a worse job at it...

If Apple were to ever release OSX to operate on third-party PC platforms, Windows would be toast.

For that matter, if Apple priced their computers more closely to equivalent PCs, they'd eat up market share as well.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6114 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2224 times:

It would not be that easy, Microsoft has a huge advantage in the fact that 99% of all software made runs on windows, not on any other OS.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2190 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 16):
If Apple were to ever release OSX to operate on third-party PC platforms, Windows would be toast.

I think you have it backwards. Apple's OS is relatively easy to design for because they control the hardware it works on. Windows has to be designed for the many thousands of generic motherboards, drives, etc. making literally millions of possible hardware combinations.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 16):
For that matter, if Apple priced their computers more closely to equivalent PCs, they'd eat up market share as well.

They already price their Macs pretty much the same as equivalent PCs, and they have indeed been eating up market share for many years already.

The thing is just that relatively few people actually buy PCs equivalent to Macs – most PC buyers go for cheaply made ones Apple doesn't even compete against and don't even know (or care) about the better PCs.

That Apple is not just outgrowing the PC market (and thus gaining share) but on top of that still reaping more profits just from their Mac sales than the five(!) most profitable PC manufacturers combined is an indication that their strategy isn't so bad all in all.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
I think you have it backwards. Apple's OS is relatively easy to design for because they control the hardware it works on. Windows has to be designed for the many thousands of generic motherboards, drives, etc. making literally millions of possible hardware combinations.

That's an age-old excuse, but none of the fundamental flaws in Windows' conceptual design and execution are in any way related to that marginal aspect.

Windows 8 is just the most recent example of the cluelessness at Microsoft regarding fundamental issues. In this case being that Ballmer apparently believed Apple's massive iPad profits had to be a sign that people were clamoring for Windows mashed together with a mobile user interface, without really bothering to pursue a deeper understanding of what people actually wanted, what they needed and why.

Microsoft always had some islands of competent implementation – but generally within an ocean of shortsighted fiddling around and muddling through without much inspiration about where to go.

I've never been a fan of the Metro UI, but I concede that it's a competent execution of an uncharacteristically independent idea. The overall operating system concept of Windows 8/RT is just again completely botched and likely driven more by Ballmer's shortsighted perspective than by anyone really thinking things through.

Windows 8 costs Microsoft (and the dependent PC manufacturers) a lot of momentum. They will certainly survive this in one form or another, but their level of relevance for the further course of the IT industry at large has declined precipitously, and I see little chance of them reversing this trend anytime soon.

Firing Ballmer would have to be one of the first steps, but even that only makes sense if they've got someone else with a clue, which is not as simple as it may look.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2038 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2164 times:

I switched to Windows from the Mac because of Windows 8. It's that good.

It runs faster than any Windows OS before it.
It has the most advanced UI of any Windows OS before it.
It starts up faster than any Windows OS before it.
It is a more refined OS than any Windows OS before it and equals and sometimes exceeds Mac OS.

It does *not* have that dumb Start menu - which was what finally gave me the nudge to switch. Good riddance.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Microsoft always had some islands of competent implementation – but generally within an ocean of shortsighted fiddling around and muddling through without much inspiration about where to go.

Hey, for only sometimes getting some things right, they're doing pretty well.

2012 (all numbers in $MM):
Revenue: $72,723
Operating Income: $21,763
Net Income: $16,978

I guess my life goal is to have some islands of simply competent implementation in my life.

Note: I'm sure you will come back with Apple's numbers, however to do so would be completely missing my point. I'll let you figure out why.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11933 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2079 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Windows 8 is just the most recent example of the cluelessness at Microsoft regarding fundamental issues. In this case being that Ballmer apparently believed Apple's massive iPad profits had to be a sign that people were clamoring for Windows mashed together with a mobile user interface, without really bothering to pursue a deeper understanding of what people actually wanted, what they needed and why.

It's well known that M$ tried to do its own not-quite-Windows mobile OS for years and it was a failure.

One of the main things held against it was that it was not-quite-WIndows.

Now M$ went for the it-really-is-Windows, and IMHO also failed, because they were so heavy handed about the desktop remake.

M$ felt the best way to let people know there was this metro UI was to force it onto the desktop without preserving many of the usability features people were used to having.

Indeed this reeks of an executive decision done without any true insight nor any benefit of unbiased study of actual user behavior.

All they would have to do is hand a bunch of W8 machines to a bunch of W7 or earlier users and just step back and listen for all the WTFs coming from them.

To me that speaks to the corporate insular thinking that has been a characteristic of M$ for the last decade or more. They themselves decided what W8 was going to be years ago, they marched to that plan, they spent $$$ doing a beta program that would have told them that people hated it (or if not, they picked the wrong beta testers!) and now they have to do this embarrassing 'mea culpa' and reverse directions.

To me the bottom line is that W8 is tarnished. Instead of being praised for whatever improvements it brought to the table, it's being damned for some blatantly obvious issues that should have been dealt with before release.

This means to a large degree the money they put into advertising it to try to make it gain popularity was for naught. Instead we have lots of people talking about how every other Win release is crap, and W8 is the latest example of such.

[Edited 2013-05-14 04:54:25]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):

When I use windows i use it for business and to be productive, Its a work tool and i can care less how "pretty" it is.

I recall a quote from an analyst many years ago (name escapes me...) : "Apple sells you a lifestyle, Microsoft sells you a tool." Although retired, I'm consulting, so I'll take the tool over the lifestyle.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):
I need to print, receive email, word, excel, power point. I HATE that Microsoft changes how the basics work. The print menu changes, the location of format and tools bars. for what reason?

I agree. In business you want consistency in evolution to evolution of any given OS. To just arbitrarily change things strikes me as poor policy.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11933 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2066 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
"Apple sells you a lifestyle, Microsoft sells you a tool." Although retired, I'm consulting, so I'll take the tool over the lifestyle.

It seems there's more people out there looking for that lifestyle vs looking for a tool.

Seems M$ is trying to reach that broader audience, and failing.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2010 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
M$

That's a blast from the past!    I didn't even know people still did that. Haven't seen it for years.

It's amusing how much we all vilified Microsoft back in the day, seeing how they were really unable to pull off most of the evil things they were accused of. In many ways Apple, Google and Facebook are much worse, yet they get a fraction of the bad rep Microsoft got (and is still getting, amazingly).



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 26, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 21):
Hey, for only sometimes getting some things right, they're doing pretty well.

They had been handed their OS monopoly on a silver platter by a thoroughly clueless IBM – IBM opened all the doors Microsoft then only had to walk through. The initial IBM PC OS contract was a stunning failure on IBM's part – and Gates was clever in exploiting that vulnerability to the fullest, eventually kicking IBM to the curb when they had the market by the balls.

Their success had almost everything to do with clever maneuvering in the corporate market and then leveraging that advantage into the personal computing area, but rather little with actual product quality or performance.

That is also one of the reasons why they're still pursuing that same pattern today in trying to leverage their withering dominance in the desktop computing area into the mobile area by sheer force, because that had worked before when the competition was too weak to put up any meaningful resistance.

The problem is that today they're facing massive, fast-moving and multi-pronged opposition and their lever just doesn't work any more under such circumstances. They would have needed an actually convincing product, which they've never needed before. Their confused insistence to try and re-try their same old approach despite its obvious failures is mostly coming from the top, as far as we can see.

And by now they have lost so much momentum – and a lot of brand value at the same time – that their chances of turning things around are further dwindling as we speak.

Apple has (almost) always been strong on their actual products, and since 1997 they've also learned to weed out their primary weakness in the older days: Execution in the market. It takes both, and Microsoft is still scrambling to build up their competence on the product side which they had never needed before, but which has become a crucial weakness in the new environment today.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 21):
I guess my life goal is to have some islands of simply competent implementation in my life.

Shouldn't you be aiming a little bit higher than just that...?
 

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 21):
Note: I'm sure you will come back with Apple's numbers, however to do so would be completely missing my point. I'll let you figure out why.

Goes to show that you don't know as much about me as you think you do, and you haven't read my previous post very well.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
All they would have to do is hand a bunch of W8 machines to a bunch of W7 or earlier users and just step back and listen for all the WTFs coming from them.

As far as I'm aware, they did indeed to that; Their interpretation of the results was just not very realistic.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
I recall a quote from an analyst many years ago (name escapes me...) : "Apple sells you a lifestyle, Microsoft sells you a tool." Although retired, I'm consulting, so I'll take the tool over the lifestyle.

That's not entirely false but still mostly beside the point.

Not being aggravated by my tools could in fact be called a "lifestyle", but being content with just the bare minimum of quality is another kind of "lifestyle" as well – just not a very attractive one for me.

Microsoft sells you nothing but a generally just so-so functioning tool. If you derive much of your satisfaction from somehow overcoming the resistance and difficulties put up by your tools even during routine tasks, that may be good enough for you.

Apple, on the other hand, sells me a tool which is noticeably designed to cause as little aggravation as possible, leaving my mind more free for my actual tasks at hand. A perfect tool is one whose use vanishes into the primary execution of the task, one which lets me forget I'm using it, ideally.

Some people actively resent tools which are more than just barely usable, but I personally prefer tools where I can see that somebody has invested more than just the bare minimum of thought and care into their conceptual and ergonomic design and manufacturing.

I can still delve deep into the bowels of Mac OS X if I want to (and I do for some purposes!), but most of my tools I need to just work without bothering me with their boring internal details. And Apple is serving that preference of mine better than most other manufacturers.

Apple products don't always meet their own standards as fully as I'd like, but that's still a lot better than not having any discernible standards in the first place, and that gets us back to Microsoft, unfortunately.

They're coasting along on their former tactical advantages (most of which were not earned but effectively won in a lottery), but they find it quite hard to actually compete on the actual merits of their products for the first time.

We'll have to see if they'll manage that.


User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 27, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 25):
In many ways Apple, Google and Facebook are much worse, yet they get a fraction of the bad rep Microsoft got (and is still getting, amazingly).

When you have legions of semi-zombified fanboys gushing over you, it's not that hard for your sins to be whitewashed.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 28, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2095 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
It seems there's more people out there looking for that lifestyle vs looking for a tool.

Shows you how shallow many people can be.   

McDonald's sell a kajillion burgers every year. Doesn't mean they're any good.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 29, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2085 times:

It's still an interesting effect that Apple's detractors tend to go for stereotypical personal attacks against users of Apple products instead of offering substantial criticism of the company they seem to have such an intense dislike of.

Why is that, exactly? And why the peculiar asymmetry?


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 30, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
It's still an interesting effect that Apple's detractors tend to go for stereotypical personal attacks against users of Apple products instead of offering substantial criticism of the company they seem to have such an intense dislike of.

Why are you using so many stereotypical attacks in your statement and then complain about other using stereotypical arguments against you?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 31, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
Why are you using so many stereotypical attacks in your statement and then complain about other using stereotypical arguments against you?


Could you please point out and quote any personal attacks on users of other systems in my posts?

That this is so extremely asymmetrical is the puzzling thing.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11933 posts, RR: 25
Reply 32, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 25):
It's amusing how much we all vilified Microsoft back in the day, seeing how they were really unable to pull off most of the evil things they were accused of.

Back in the day, M$ was vilified for its hard-core capitalist approach to the computer, mainly because so much of the user base back then were hobbyists and/or academics. Thankfully open source has provided an outlet for many of the same people. Of course open source has existed almost as long as has the computer, but these days the distribution mechanisms are far more effective than they were in days of yore, and quality has improved a lot too.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Their success had almost everything to do with clever maneuvering in the corporate market and then leveraging that advantage into the personal computing area, but rather little with actual product quality or performance.

Interesting statements given that Apple paid M$ to port what we now call Office to the Mac, and as a side effect caused M$ to work on their own Windows product (as opposed to OS/2). Windows started within M$'s app team )as opposed to its OS team) as a tool to use to develop the apps we now call Office, and was sitting there just waiting when M$ realized that following IBM's lead on OS/2 was a bad idea.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
The problem is that today they're facing massive, fast-moving and multi-pronged opposition and their lever just doesn't work any more under such circumstances. They would have needed an actually convincing product, which they've never needed before.

Like it or not, M$ has had many convincing products right from the start. Like it or not, Apple still has not come close to unseating M$ in the corporate world.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Not being aggravated by my tools could in fact be called a "lifestyle", but being content with just the bare minimum of quality is another kind of "lifestyle" as well – just not a very attractive one for me.

I think the "lifestyle" comments comes from the emphasis on visual design that Apple has had for quite a while now.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6114 posts, RR: 9
Reply 33, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Apple is making boatloads of money and are very far from being monopolistic so there is no reason to attack the company. That doesn't mean that fanboys are right to buy their products, though, the two are unrelated.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
It seems there's more people out there looking for that lifestyle vs looking for a tool.

Seems M$ is trying to reach that broader audience, and failing.

More than before, yes, more than tool users, far from it. Apple still has less than 10% of the computer market.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2010 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 32):
Back in the day, M$ was vilified for its hard-core capitalist approach to the computer, mainly because so much of the user base back then were hobbyists and/or academics. Thankfully open source has provided an outlet for many of the same people. Of course open source has existed almost as long as has the computer, but these days the distribution mechanisms are far more effective than they were in days of yore, and quality has improved a lot too.

Yet Microsoft has always aimed to create open ecosystems. Windows has been designed to run on as many different systems as possible, to allow all kinds of software to be installed on it, and to give users maximum access to fiddle with it - which is part of the reason Windows has been such a mess for most of its existence. Sometimes they tried to leverage their market position by driving people to use certain MS software, like IE, but that's pretty tame compared to what Apple and Google are doing nowadays.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
It's still an interesting effect that Apple's detractors tend to go for stereotypical personal attacks against users of Apple products instead of offering substantial criticism of the company they seem to have such an intense dislike of.

Why is that, exactly?

It's because Apple users identify with their company of choice to an unusual degree. Attacks on Apple will lead many Apple users to feel personally injured; something you rarely see with, say, Samsung users or whatever.

Your use of the word "detractor" is interesting in itself, by the way.  



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1996 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
Could you please point out and quote any personal attacks

I said stereotypical attacks. I did not say personal attacks. Attacks do not need to be personal. They can be against products and companies too.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11933 posts, RR: 25
Reply 36, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 34):
Yet Microsoft has always aimed to create open ecosystems.

Perhaps on the hardware side, but their approach towards selling software has always had a strong anti-competitive component. They used bundling techniques to force installation of M$ applications and used OS discounts that vendors only qualified for if ALL their shipments had M$ products installed to undermine other OSes, free or otherwise.

Quoting Rara (Reply 34):
Sometimes they tried to leverage their market position by driving people to use certain MS software, like IE, but that's pretty tame compared to what Apple and Google are doing nowadays.

Maybe if you weren't the vendor of various development tools, applications, databases, etc. Otherwise, M$'s techniques were fatal to your business.

Not sure what Apple/Google examples you think should be compared.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2010 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1938 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
Not sure what Apple/Google examples you think should be compared.

Come on.   Apple manufactures a computer, namely the iPad (and yes it is a computer, even though due to the lack of a physical keyboard, we call it a tablet) on which the customer may only run software either made by Apple itself, or thoroughly examined by and distributed via Apple, not without Apple taking a healthy cut of the software's revenue. Failing to obey will not only lose you your warranty, it may even be illegal depending on where you live.

Compare that with Microsoft. One of their prime offenses, which they paid dearly for, was bundling a free browser with their operating system. What the hell... Apple doesn't even allow alternative browser engines on their iOS devices! Imagine Microsoft had decreed in the 1990s that Windows would not install any piece of software which Microsoft hadn't individually approved of and taken a cut from. Quite rightfully, this would have created a total outrage. Microsoft never did venture into this direction, and they never saw the need to place their users in a "MS only" software environment.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently onlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5255 posts, RR: 8
Reply 38, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 37):

Ah yes, but this is only because Microsoft had essentially monopoly control of the market. And Apple does not have that type or level of control yet. And this still current near monopoly power is why Microsoft is a has-been and is on it way to being a dead company, or something like that.   

I think if anything it has been shown over the years that Microsoft has staying power, and while they may screw up with introductions, they slowly but surely fix issues and work on massaging their product and finally one version is found acceptable and gets a huge uptake. Thus leading to the next big introduction.... and failure, and fixes and.... then success.

It is a different market now out there, and there are new platforms that Microsoft is working hard to get onto. We'll have to wait and see how they do going forward. I personally think they will do just fine.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11933 posts, RR: 25
Reply 39, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1888 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 37):
Apple manufactures a computer, namely the iPad (and yes it is a computer, even though due to the lack of a physical keyboard, we call it a tablet) on which the customer may only run software either made by Apple itself, or thoroughly examined by and distributed via Apple, not without Apple taking a healthy cut of the software's revenue.

However you knew that when you bought said computer. In the case of M$, they offered undocumented discounts to hardware vendors if and only if they included Windows on every computer they bought, regardless if that machine would ever use Windows, so M$ got paid if you installed OS/2, *nix, etc. They took what was thought to be an open market and made sure behind the scenes it was closed because there were only disincentives for any vendor who went away from M$.

Also before the browser bundling case, there were other cases against M$ for bundling Office as well as SQL etc so it has been a long running issue.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 635 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1843 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):

I'm not going to stand on the mountain top and defend Microsoft, but "withering dominance"? They have 87% of the market.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3335 posts, RR: 9
Reply 41, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 16):
If Apple were to ever release OSX to operate on third-party PC platforms, Windows would be toast.

I don't think so for numerous reasons.

It wouldl face the same issues that Windows faces with hardware conflicts regarding drivers and the use of a wide range of software. Most of the issues with Windows is the fact that there has to me so much software made to run with heaps of hardware that bugs and conflicts would happen. OSX would face the same issues and Apple knows this.

Furthermore OSX is less secure than Windows and hackers have proved this, the reason Mac users have less of a risk for viruses overall is that you are not going to hack a major corporation because they aren't using Mac's.

Quoting Rara (Reply 37):
Apple doesn't even allow alternative browser engines on their iOS devices!

To be fair, iOS 6 allows users to install Google Now, Firefox and Chrome IIRC.

Quoting Rara (Reply 37):
Come on.   Apple manufactures a computer, namely the iPad (and yes it is a computer, even though due to the lack of a physical keyboard, we call it a tablet) on which the customer may only run software either made by Apple itself, or thoroughly examined by and distributed via Apple, not without Apple taking a healthy cut of the software's revenue. Failing to obey will not only lose you your warranty, it may even be illegal depending on where you live.

Very true as Android is open source and Google doesn't seem to frown when someone roots a device but IIRC Apple can legally freeze a jail-broken Iphone or Ipad.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8206 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Sadly the ones from M$ rule a pretty large part of it, and aren't doing a great job.
Quoting Rara (Reply 34):
Attacks on Apple will lead many Apple users to feel personally injured; something you rarely see with, say, Samsung users or whatever.

Apple's product value proposition is still quite different.

Apple isn't selling a bunch of circuits. They are selling a "friend" -- the equipment and software designed by people you trust, who care about you. Anything annoying or confusing is removed and rethought until it works like it ought to.

"Lifestyle," maybe. The point is, Apple products do this well and that's worth money.

Microsoft builds good business tools. That is also worth money.

So, they both have their purpose and both make tons of money.

Microsoft nearly got a monopoly in the late 1990s and killed Mac. They were scared off by Thomas Penfield Jackson. If that hadn't occurred, we might have a MSFT monopoly now.

[Edited 2013-05-15 11:33:35]

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2010 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
To be fair, iOS 6 allows users to install Google Now, Firefox and Chrome IIRC.

They allow the shell of Firefox and Chrome, but the browser engine has to be WebKit, i.e. Safari. In other words, it looks like Chrome from the outside, but it really isn't. As to why that is, I have no idea. Perhaps Klaus can tell us.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6114 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

They also ban apps and games that have a political message, denouncing exploitation of cheap labor in Asia for example...


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2917 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1597 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 37):
Apple doesn't even allow alternative browser engines on their iOS devices!

They allow several browsers, as others have said. Chrome, iCab, Firefox, and I think Opera came out with an app.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12884 posts, RR: 12
Reply 46, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1574 times:

I just got a new computer with Windows 8 (as a nasty virus wrecked my 3 year old unit) I am not happy with it. Very confusing although I do like the security improvements as to initial access. Getting to Internet access is too difficult, it is a far too difficult hassle to get to the off button.

User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 635 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 46):

On the quick boot, wait until it boots to a blank profile. That will set you off.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2315 posts, RR: 21
Reply 48, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1538 times:

I think Windows 8 would be awesome on a computer with a touchscreen, Without touchscreen, it is close to being useless.

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6114 posts, RR: 9
Reply 49, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1502 times:

Apparently there will be a Windows 8.1 codename "Blue". Launched in late October so one year after 8, and at the usual date for Windows launches (I noticed since it's around my birthday). The update will be free.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 50, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1488 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 49):


Apparently there will be a Windows 8.1 codename "Blue". Launched in late October so one year after 8, and at the usual date for Windows launches (I noticed since it's around my birthday). The update will be free.

That's what this thread is about, Aesma.


“Key aspects” of how the software is used will be changed when Microsoft releases an updated version of the operating system this year, Tami Reller, head of marketing and finance for the Windows business, said in an interview with the Financial Times. Referring to difficulties many users have had with mastering the software, she added: “The learning curve is definitely real.”



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11933 posts, RR: 25
Reply 51, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1458 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 43):
They allow the shell of Firefox and Chrome, but the browser engine has to be WebKit, i.e. Safari.

I'm wondering if a similar thing happens with Android and MP3 player apps ie different shells for the same common media player core. I've tried a number of android apps, and they all don't seem to read album art correctly/consistently, but they all are consistent with each other. I transfer a whole directory tree's worth of ripped albums from my pc to the andrioid over usb and some songs play with album art, others don't, and the ones that don't consistently don't across several different android mp3 player apps.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
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