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IRS Targeted Conservative Groups Part 1  
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

I've been pretty hard on the good ol' GOP lately, but they might have some justified outrage:

Quote:
The Internal Revenue Service acknowledged Friday that it had inappropriately targeted conservative political groups for additional scrutiny during the 2012 election cycle, an admission that set off a firestorm on Capitol Hill and could damage the Obama Administration.
http://swampland.time.com/2013/05/10...nservative-groups-over-tax-status/

Assuming all this is true (probably is since the IRS has apologized) it's very shady if you ask me. I can see the reasoning behind going after campaigns and money raising groups, but corruption with money is not a one sided issue. I have a feeling this will be made a bigger deal than it should be (as in there will be wailing and moaning for a long time) but I don't think a probe would be unjustified. I just hope it would be done in a civilized manner.

Also, I do hope the left acknowledges any wrong doing. There is constant banter back and forth about bias and all, but really, it is true to a degree. I don't think the victims should be the only one upset... unfair treatment is unfair treatment.

What do yall think?

PS: See Geezer, I stand up for the GOP sometimes  


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
249 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20244 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4580 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Also, I do hope the left acknowledges any wrong doing. There is constant banter back and forth about bias and all, but really, it is true to a degree. I don't think the victims should be the only one upset... unfair treatment is unfair treatment.

If this happened, this is totally inappropriate. But if it occurred as described, it appears that it was isolated to one group that behaved unethically and is not indicative of any action on the part of the IRS leadership or the Obama Administration.

What disturbs me is that I am absolutely certain that the Tea Party and pals will accuse the Administration of exactly that.


User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8921 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Also, I do hope the left acknowledges any wrong doing.

They are already covering it up. The claim that it was just a local IRS office in Cincinnati or someplace who did it, in spite of conservative groups all over the country being targeted. I would not be surprised if the idea came down from Cabinet level, intentional or not (unintentional would be a Henry II / Thomas Becket scenario - "Will no one rid me...")

But an investigation is warranted. Mis-use of the fearsome power of the IRS is most definitely a crime - the question is who will go to jail - some flunky in Cincinnati or someone higher up.

[Edited 2013-05-10 17:49:23]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
But if it occurred as described, it appears that it was isolated to one group that behaved unethically and is not indicative of any action on the part of the IRS leadership or the Obama Administration.

What disturbs me is that I am absolutely certain that the Tea Party and pals will accuse the Administration of exactly that.

That is my fear. It is a legitimate gripe but if they start going after the President they lose their credibility (unless the President was behind it which I highly doubt)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

If the GOP plays it like that it's gonna look like another witch hunt. I'm just telling you what it would look like from me... it appears the GOP keeps crying wolf and if the administration ever did something blatantly wrong, no one is gonna listen to the GOP. Either that or there really have been a ton of administration cover ups all over the place in which case that is starting to go into tin foil hat category


I've found that it is easier to suspect foul play when you've suspected it has happened many times in the past. Just as an outside observer, it looks pretty bad. But again, I think it would behoove the Democrats in at least hearing the GOP out on the issue



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8921 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
If the GOP plays it like that it's gonna look like another witch hunt. I'm just telling you what it would look like from me... it appears the GOP keeps crying wolf and if the administration ever did something blatantly wrong, no one is gonna listen to the GOP.

So, let's say someone higher up in the administration actually used the IRS as their personal attack dog. You think we should just shut up about it? You think an investigation will magically appear? Especially how the State Department's investigation into Benghazi is itself now the subject of an independent investigation because the original investigators were apparently in the investigatees' pockets.

So if you are GOP (right-wing, conservative, whatever you want to call the opposition), you are advising us to simply "shut up and accept you are losers." If we feel that something was done wrong, we can either roll over and take it, or be accused of starting a witch hunt, crying wolf etc.

Sorry, but those don't sound like very attractive options.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4539 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
So, let's say someone higher up in the administration actually used the IRS as their personal attack dog. You think we should just shut up about it? You think an investigation will magically appear? Especially how the State Department's investigation into Benghazi is itself now the subject of an independent investigation because the original investigators were apparently in the investigatees' pockets.

Of course not. What I am warning against is them coming right out and making huge accusations. That is what I think a lot of people are just waiting for, and if/when it happens, we'll just let out a groan and say "here we go again."

What I recommend they do is stay really neutral politically and just express the need to get this straightened out. Don't bring D vs R into it right off the bat. Probe it out and see where it leads. If they see it leading upwards, follow the trail. Once they get high enough, then ask the tough questions.

Does that make sense?

Most liberals will have a liberal bias... that's not wrong, that's just how people are. It's almost impossible to stay 100% objective. What I am (anecdotally) seeing are the moderates also being wary of GOP criticisms. Unless the GOP is completely correct all the time and the President has been the most sneaky, cunning president we've had, the GOP has cried wolf quite a few times and it's bugging the moderates. The 51% of the vote that the President got in November wasn't just Democrats, don't forget



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20785 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4530 times:

In the midst of all of this outrage, a little-known factoid surfaces. The IRS Commissioner during this supposed fiasco, Douglas Shulman, was appointed by President Bush. Oh dear!

Source: Tea Party Rejects IRS Apology, Republicans Vow Investigation



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8921 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Of course not. What I am warning against is them coming right out and making huge accusations. That is what I think a lot of people are just waiting for, and if/when it happens, we'll just let out a groan and say "here we go again."

What I recommend they do is stay really neutral politically and just express the need to get this straightened out. Don't bring D vs R into it right off the bat. Probe it out and see where it leads. If they see it leading upwards, follow the trail. Once they get high enough, then ask the tough questions.

Does that make sense?

Fair enough.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
In the midst of all of this outrage, a little-known factoid surfaces. The IRS Commissioner during this supposed fiasco, Douglas Shulman, was appointed by President Bush. Oh dear!

Source: Tea Party Rejects IRS Apology, Republicans Vow Investigation

So?

And they are right not to accept the apology. Someone needs to go to jail. Presuming that what they are saying is true and it was some low level guys who decided to go rogue, they need to be made an example of.

I don't know if anyone here knows anyone someone who was targeted by the IRS. It's scary. You are guilty until proven innocent. They can freeze your assets, they can put a complete hold on your business, your business associates vendors and customers start getting calls from the IRS, which quickly leads them to stop doing business with you. You want to know a particular specialty of the IRS? They will go to your spouse and find some incentive (money, immunity, whatever) to convince him/her to tell them any dirt on you they know. Even if their investigation eventually turns up nothing (true in every case I know of personally), your life is truly f&cked. All without a warrant or even probable cause. A suspicion is enough. I've seen it happen to a couple of people.

So when the IRS starts sniffing around, people get scared, even if you have never done anything worse than jaywalking. ANYONE who uses their power at or over the IRS who uses them to go after political enemies or even the boy who used to bully them at school should be put away in a deep corner of a Federal Penitentiary.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4500 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
In the midst of all of this outrage, a little-known factoid surfaces. The IRS Commissioner during this supposed fiasco, Douglas Shulman, was appointed by President Bush. Oh dear!

The Irony of all this just bleeds of stupidity from the GOP. More OVERSIGHT Hearings because their weren't ENOUGH people in GOVERNMENT jobs doing the right thing, Kind of funny. Less time doing items that matter, such as making sure proper training and guidelines are in place to keep this from happening again . Instead they are going to wonder why the watchers weren't being watched and are sure to recommend more watchers.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20785 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
So?

The president placed his trust in a political appointee belonging to a party who'd rather see him out of the Oval Office as soon as possible, even before the end of his term. What does he get in return for his trust, but a fiasco to deal with.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8921 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 8):
The Irony of all this just bleeds of stupidity from the GOP. More OVERSIGHT Hearings because their weren't ENOUGH people in GOVERNMENT jobs doing the right thing, Kind of funny. Less time doing items that matter, such as making sure proper training and guidelines are in place to keep this from happening again . Instead they are going to wonder why the watchers weren't being watched and are sure to recommend more watchers.

No need for that. You just need to ensure that those who use their government position for their personal agendas are punished severely. I'm talking 20 years to life, severely.

I guarantee that if this "apology" is allowed to stand, that we take the IRS at their word that the guilty party will be dealt with (slap on the wrist, or fired) that such abuse of the IRS and other government agencies to serve political or personal goals will become more and more common - regardless of the party in power. Such abuse must be dealt with "with extreme prejudice".

[Edited 2013-05-10 19:54:58]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8226 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
No need for that. You just need to ensure that those who use their government position for their personal agendas are punished severely. I'm talking 20 years to life, severely.

This is a pretty unrealistic expectation though. Feds protect their own. This is like asking policemen to keep each other in check - nobody's going to blow a whistle on this kind of thing unless they are prepared for a sh*tstorm or otherwise don't have anything to lose.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13170 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

Perhaps too the IRS was trying to save it's own neck, since the Tea Party & Patriot groups often attack and want to destroy or pretty much neuter the IRS.
There were a lot of these groups and their local chapters in a short time, the IRS may have seen that a fast growing number of groups of a similar theme may be a new tax scam.
There are likely to be a lot more 'liberals' and non-white workers in the IRS like many government agencies, so some of them may have wanted to target them due to their beliefs. Were they so careful with 'Occupy' groups that sought tax-exempt status?
Sadly there is a long history of 'religious' groups that are scams, celebrities and sports stars who set up 'foundations' that do little of true benefit but provide no or little show jobs for relatives and friends and NFP's run with the tax exemptions to 'profit' the creators of them or really related to a profit making business.
I do hope there is a balanced and through investigation, but we also need new and better laws to better define NFP's for tax exempt status, caps on expenses, minimum benefits to the public and stricter on pay and benefits of managers and 'owners'.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4470 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
No need for that. You just need to ensure that those who use their government position for their personal agendas are punished severely. I'm talking 20 years to life, severely.

Can you rejoin the real world please?

We are talking about auditing those that are claiming tax exemptions. Sure it could have been more balanced, but from the way I see it, we don't even know what percentage of the new tax exemption request were from Conservative Establishments vs others. At the very least the IRS was being vigilant against fraud. Overzealous and misdirected here, possibly. However it falls within their job description to be skeptical of a bunch of applications.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4464 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
They are already covering it up. The claim that it was just a local IRS office in Cincinnati or someplace who did it, in spite of conservative groups all over the country being targeted.

The IRS office in Cincinnati was the one responsible for dealing with approving tax-exempt status for organizations all over the country, which is why it's involved. This wasn't the IRS targeting individuals in conservative groups, it was the IRS being extra critical of applications for tax-exempt status. Which doesn't make it any less wrong, but it's important to keep things in perspective - the idea that anyone was at risk of having their assets frozen or anything like that is, at this point, unsubstantiated.

Obviously, this needs to be investigated, and those responsible need to be held accountable. And at the same time, maybe we can shed some light on the whole process by which organizations get tax-exempt status, because that whole process seems to be a mess rife with loopholes and shady metrics for figuring out which organizations are really political organizations and which are really legitimate social welfare groups.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4464 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
However it falls within their job description to be skeptical of a bunch of applications.

To be biased? Should they be skeptical of certain minorities that make a lot of money because it's suspicious they make a lot of money? Can the left not be shady when it comes to money? IIRC, the President raised more money than Romney did.

Dismissing legit bias like this only fuels the GOP and it should. It's unfair and shouldn't be dismissed. We are by and large against profiling, why do we treat 'TP groups' as if they are shady criminals?

Wrong wrong wrong IMO



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4457 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
To be biased?

We don't know for sure that it was bias. While I don't think it likely, it's not out of the realm of possibility that there was a process set up that ended up disproportionately affecting conservative groups but that wasn't intended to do so. That's why there needs to be a thorough but unbiased investigation, and then after that's done we can figure out who was doing what and what their motivation was, and then they can be held accountable if there was willful wrongdoing.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4453 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
If there was a specific targeting of "Conservative Groups", then some folks need to lose their jobs. However prison is a bit of an overreach for someone making sure that folks are paying taxes in the US through documentation.

Ah gotcha. I just fear this'll be blown off by the left when the right actually has a legit gripe. Would like to see things begin to get patched up



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4446 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
Ah gotcha. I just fear this'll be blown off by the left when the right actually has a legit gripe. Would like to see things begin to get patched up

It should''t ;t be blown of by the left, but the GOP is already making it a political issue, when it should just be an issue of common sense that "auditing" needs to be random or uniformly endorsed without specific targeting. The GOP however seems to be ready to make it a political issue, and one that detracts from the Government doing what it needs to do.

Those folks at the IRS have been there through multiple administrations, and not all of them are of one party. They belong to multiple parties.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

Is this what they hired 16,500 new IRS agents to do?


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11766 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

The White House already said the felt the actions were bad and IRS also said BOTH parties were targeted.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...tive-groups-2012-election/2149939/
White House spokesman Jay Carney on Friday afternoon called the IRS action "inappropriate" and said the Obama administration supports a full investigation
But, the right wing media will ignore that. Much like they ignore anything coming from the White House. They set their own talking points, however false, and build their stories around that.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20785 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4425 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
Is this what they hired 16,500 new IRS agents to do?


http://www.factcheck.org/2010/03/irs-expansion/

Q: Will the IRS hire 16,500 new agents to enforce the health care law?

A: No. The law requires the IRS mostly to hand out tax credits, not collect penalties. The claim of 16,500 new agents stems from a partisan analysis based on guesswork and false assumptions, and compounded by outright misrepresentation.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40035 posts, RR: 74
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
Q: Will the IRS hire 16,500 new agents to enforce the health care law?

A: No. The law requires the IRS mostly to hand out tax credits, not collect penalties. The claim of 16,500 new agents stems from a partisan analysis based on guesswork and false assumptions, and compounded by outright misrepresentation.

So it's all just a coincidence that the IRS had 16,500 new hires waiting in the wings ready for work just 72 hours after the Supreme Court upheld Obamacare; after all it was considered a 'tax'.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4038 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4373 times:

Not sure why anyone is surprised by this. After all, the infamous Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the icon of the left, was notorious for using all the power of the IRS to target his political enemies (even those of the same party as him who had the misfortune of crossing him). Maybe this is what they mean when they say they want a new "New Deal".

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
No. The law requires the IRS mostly to hand out tax credits, not collect penalties.

So those tax credits just hand themselves, is it? Naughty, naughty tax credits.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20785 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4394 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
So it's all just a coincidence that the IRS had 16,500 new hires waiting in the wings

Give it a rest, 'fly.



International Homo of Mystery
25 DocLightning : There you go. Here we go with another witch hunt. Maybe the GOP should dedicate lots of taxpayer dollars to this.
26 seb146 : Oh, my stars! A job creator! How dare there be any job creation! Blasphemy! No job creation shall happen under GOP control. None. At all. Obama shoul
27 Post contains images Superfly : So it's all just a coincidence that the IRS had 16,500 new hires waiting in the wings ready for work just 72 hours after the Supreme Court upheld Oba
28 AeroWesty : Let's see how you got there. Give us some credible links to back this up. No whining.
29 seb146 : I will grant you that people do hate IRS. But, if 16,500 forest rangers were hired, the right would scream about how Obama is wasting money on the en
30 Post contains images Superfly : Follow your own advice and stop whining. I simply asked a question. Now you want to play a game of 'who's source is better than the others'. Since th
31 AeroWesty : It's only a request to see a source for your claim. I've looked, done my research, and only come up with what I posted. My mind is perfectly open to
32 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : To be fair, that is quite a bit of forest rangers and would probably indeed be a waste
33 Superfly : Question, not a claim. Read again;
34 AeroWesty : Looks like a claim to me:
35 Mir : Your question was: Since the validity of the question is entirely dependent on there actually being 16,500 new IRS agents, it is incumbent on you to
36 Superfly : Gosh darn it. They're all conservative websites. Only liberal news sources are valid, right?
37 AeroWesty : That's fine, they need to provide logical sources for their facts as well. I've already posted that at least I would review anything with an open min
38 Post contains images Superfly : No offense but that scares the hell out of me coming from you! "We" is rather presumptive considering most here probably don't give a damn one way or
39 Post contains images AeroWesty : Non-sequitur alert! Enough with the meta-discussion, time for the substance.
40 Post contains links Stabilator : "16500 New Agents" earned a "mostly false" on the truth-meter. http://www.politifact.com/georgia/st...gents-will-enforce-obama-health-c/ Honestly I th
41 DeltaMD90 : Perhaps, if justice is served. I just find it ironic... not possible to prove but I think if the sides were flipped and the IRS targeted liberal grou
42 Mir : Not necessarily. They should look into what happened, sure, and they should make sure that anyone who intentionally targeted groups based on politics
43 seb146 : Two things I find interesting is: When GWB was in power and there were shady dealings going on, no one on the right said much of anything. Secret ene
44 DeltaMD90 : Someone has to break the cycle. Do the Democrats not have the high ground to do that? That is my point. There is a lot of "well the other side did th
45 Mir : The moral high ground is only useful if the electorate respects it. At the moment, I'm not convinced that they do. -Mir
46 seb146 : I know. I am sick and tired of this madness that went on for eight years only to have the same party that did it turn around and start screaming abou
47 DeltaMD90 : Ah, but neither can I. I will get behind a legitimate probe into this but I won't join their howls. That is only fair. The way I look at it, the Dems
48 Post contains links AeroWesty : Oh dear, apparently Bush-appointee Shulman knew about the targeting. The targeting also isn't apparently any new revelation, since Shulman testified a
49 seb146 : I just wonder if this IRS story will be "breaking news" this coming week.
50 okie : Sure it will, as the plot thickens and more information is becoming available it appears they are targeting any one or any organisation that does not
51 seb146 : Radio stations are either music, sports or right-wing talk. Newspapers are dying out with only 10 or so being (allegedly) "liberal" and TV? Two chann
52 Post contains links fr8mech : You know, this isn't really a left/right issue. It's a fundamental issue of freedom. If what we read is true...and I have to believe it is true since
53 DeltaMD90 : Wow, either provide proof to back up your statements or give me some tin foil. Besides this case that hasn't been fully investigated yet and isn't co
54 Post contains images okie : What is interesting is that it appears the IRS have not found any wrong doing on the behalf of the people or organizations investigated. So far anywa
55 Post contains images CPH-R : Don't worry, he'll soon be here, linking it to some sort of revenge for what happened to ACORN.
56 petertenthije : He's been temporarily banned.
57 seb146 : Could it be the one office used an algorithm to search titles and basic descriptions for words like "patriot" and "tea party" and caught left leaning
58 Dreadnought : Seriously? To quote George Will: "But they said a) it was inadvertent. It was just some odd underlings out in Cincinnati who did this. And there was
59 okie : An we have Eric Holder going after the Associated Press requesting records phone calls both personal and business. Puhleeze, I stand by may statement
60 cptkrell : Guess nobody's been watching this PM's TV newsies. Seems like it is now appearing this deal goes way up the "chain of command" at the IRS and pretty f
61 Mir : In connection with an investigation that they were doing. That doesn't necessarily mean that they were right to do so, but you can bet that when the
62 seb146 : Like people being detained and put on no-fly lists because they were protesting W and the Iraq war? Like "free speech zones"? Oh, wait... money is sp
63 airportugal310 : Oh stop...your agenda is so plainly clear. Heaven forbid someone has a problem with little ole Obama's administration.
64 Dreadnought : I'm just guessing here, but suppose, just hypothetically, that live on CNN that a democratic politician stabs if wife in the back with a knife, you'd
65 seb146 : You on the right want nothing more than Obama to be ousted. That's it. You all want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours
66 DeltaMD90 : Erm, I just want to see justice done. I hope you know I've got no ill will towards the President and I'd be shocked if he was involved. But the conse
67 Dreadnought : Blah blah blah. Obama will not be ousted. He'll serve out his term. Deomcrats in the House and Senate will never elect to impeach - even if the did t
68 Post contains links Dreadnought : Now it's starting to get interesting... http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e2-97d4-a479289a31f9_story.html Internal Revenue Service officials i
69 casinterest : I am still waiting to see the full report. I still think that most of this is due to the rapid rise of tea party groups and the supreme court decisio
70 Mir : There is no question that there are a lot of groups trying to get in under the 501(c)(4) umbrella, not just conservative groups but liberal ones as w
71 Dreadnought : And presumably that we can power the world's energy needs on unicorn farts... I'm sorry, but there are a number of people who are so willing to belie
72 casinterest : Awesome dude. You are so right. You deserve a medal for your lack of class.
73 casinterest : How cute of you to edit later on after such a short small though out post. . It is not about belief . I want the raw numbers of applications vs targe
74 Post contains images casinterest : Well social work should not be part of it, as most of these groups are separate from social issues as Dreadnought has told us repeatedly .
75 okie : 501 c 4's were set up for unions and corporations. Do not let facts get in the way. Okie
76 casinterest : That was my point. Apparently you don't know the difference between tax exempt and non-tax exempt. ". But they can’t be primarily engaged in partis
77 okie : In spite of the insult caseinterest, short story, social welfare and education has to be the 501c4's primary purpose. Okie
78 Post contains links and images casinterest : That is the point I was making along with a jab against a claim that social issues were not a part of the tea party groups At the end of the day, any
79 DeltaMD90 : And how many legal Mexican Americans get deported after being targeted by the police? So it's ok for police to just target Mexican looking people? It
80 casinterest : If the law was against people looking Mexican ? Maybe. However that isn't the point. The IRS is tasked with making a differentiation that is a millio
81 DeltaMD90 : I don't know why you're trying to argue it was ok, the IRS and almost every Democrat I've heard have said it's wrong. They're specifically targeting
82 Post contains images flyguy89 : Because according to him and Nancy Pelosi, it's all the supreme court's fault because of Citizens United
83 1337Delta764 : Perhaps every Democrat you heard said its wrong, but if Republicans call for impeachment of Obama, the Democrats in the Senate would happily defend O
84 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Uh, so you disagree with them when they said the IRS was wrong for targeting conservatives? Which corrupt actions? Are you talking about the IRS? Ple
85 Post contains links johnboy : Well here's at least one time the IRS did it to a (more or less) progressive group back in 2004: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...ted-naacp-in-2
86 fr8mech : Ok, I haven't been keeping up with this thread because I figured it would fall into partisan lines with those on the left firmly defending President O
87 DeltaMD90 : We're so used to instant action, but honestly, things take time. I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being. And depending on ho
88 AeroWesty : Remember the White House Travel Office scandal of the early 90s? Outside of jobs which require presidential nomination, or are his Cabinet, or limite
89 fr8mech : I don't buy it, this scandal, coupled with Fast and Furious, Benghazi and the AP thing can bring down his presidency and make his next 3 years comple
90 AeroWesty : I haven't read every detail, but the administrator whom under these improprieties took place already resigned. The current administrator is only 'act
91 casinterest : It's not specifically the targeting that is wrong. A political group needs to file a 527 and not a C4 form as their is a differentiation in their tax
92 fr8mech : I agree. I'll settle for suspensions...for now. I'm thinking the acting director is still on the hook, whether it was partisan or not. If he knew abo
93 casinterest : Yeah, and you and Sarah Palin can see Russia through the fuzz on the Fake News Channel.
94 Post contains links rightrudder : We will have to wait and see what transpires at the hearing on Friday. This is a shame because as Jon Stewart says, good Government, does have the pow
95 Boeing717200 : Ditsy as Palin may be, you're quoting Tina Fey from an NBC broadcast. Party is over. You can't tick off the press and expect to keep getting the pass
96 rightrudder : True that. And it isn't the first time this department has stepped over it's power in the past 5 years. Early this year, The Judicial system found th
97 okie : That is giving private and personal data that is not suppose to be available to even to the President to political groups for gain. Simply put IRS ag
98 okie : I hope that is a typo, 504c plans generally refer education relating to Attention Deficit Disorder. They looked over their applications for more than
99 blueflyer : No, but a branch of the GOP sees conspiracies so often that it suffers from the broken clock syndrome, it still tells the correct time twice a day. W
100 Boeing717200 : The current commissioner is probably the one who is responsible. He was a deputy commissioner on enforcement and before that a director in charge of
101 Post contains links Dreadnought : http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-party-groups-put-on-hold/2159983/ What some people don't realize is that when a tax status is put on hold, nei
102 seb146 : So, I don't understand.... These so-called "conservative" groups that applied for 501c4 status are (A) not charitable organizations and (B) were appro
103 DeltaMD90 : I'm not doing anything to get the President out of office and haven't thought about that for a second. If the IRS or some organization was targeting
104 seb146 : Not you, personally. I am talking about Congress and the media. Besides, why doesn't Congress (controlled by the right) do their job and figure out a
105 DeltaMD90 : They can do more than one thing at once. I think something should be done about it. Obviously I don't think they should be going over the deep end, b
106 AeroWesty : Most of yesterday foxnews.com devoted a large amount of screen real estate to a photo of Obama with "DAMAGE CONTROL" or some other silly phrase like
107 casinterest : Unfortunately, the real problem is that they were asking for verification of 527 status which includes donor lists... which under 501c4 are allowed t
108 1337Delta764 : Yep exactly. The Democrats are the real liars when they claim Bush lied.
109 Post contains images AeroWesty : Correct! Anyone who denies this is intentionally being dishonest just to defend their party.
110 1337Delta764 : No, anyone who BELIEVES this is intentionally being dishonest just to defend their party, and should spend a lifetime in prison.
111 Dreadnought : Prison for what you believe? We're not in North Korea.
112 AeroWesty : As Bush lied about Abu Zubaydah, and you continue to maintain that Bush never lied, shouldn't you have yourself locked up for the rest of your natura
113 1337Delta764 : Because it is blatantly false and gives Democrats an unfair advantage. Democrats who claim Bush lied are the real liars themselves.[Edited 2013-05-15
114 WestJet747 : Well that escalated quickly...
115 Post contains links CPH-R : Also.. IRS Sent Same Letter to Democrats That Fed Tea Party Row ... One of those groups, Emerge America, saw its tax-exempt status denied, forcing it
116 DeltaMD90 : Instead of spouting out ignorant statements that would make even Stalin cringe, why don't you back up your statements with more than just mindless ra
117 Post contains links flyguy89 : http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...-party-progressive-groups/2158831/ Things seem to be heating up as more info comes out.
118 Post contains links Dreadnought : Over 40% of Americans still believe that the CIA or some such government organization was behind JFK's assassination. Conspiracy theories have legs.
119 Post contains links AeroWesty : The Two Most Essential, Abhorrent, Intolerable Lies Of George W. Bush's Memoir Just one of many examples.
120 1337Delta764 : Sorry, but the link you provided is a biased left-wing one-sided propaganda article. No matter what links you post, anyone who claims that Bush lied
121 AeroWesty : So I take it you won't be locking yourself up for life for perpetuating the Abu Zubaydah lie? That's terribly disappointing.
122 cptkrell : It would be kind of interesting (and perhaps more of an informative cross-fire) if peoples would talk about the title thread instead of going back to
123 seb146 : Okay. Let's talk about how the "Republican" controlled House is spending so much time and money, OUR tax dollars, investigating Obama. Instead, they
124 okie : You seem to be the only one touting that line. Just an observation, it appears the executive branch of government is doing a pretty good job of throw
125 Post contains links AeroWesty : Today Pres. Obama asked for and received the resignation of acting IRS commissioner Steven Miller. Acting director of IRS resigns amid furor over targ
126 Boeing717200 : The sequester doesn't need a fix. Come October there's a new budget and we will have saved billions in this fiscal year. The sequester amounts to a s
127 Dreadnought : from the link you posted: This is not enough. Resign? Probably with pension / medical benefits, and with all his contacts will quickly find a very lu
128 AeroWesty : ::chuckle:: Settle down. Rome wasn't built in a day.
129 Dreadnought : With this administration, if we "settle down", this affair will be quickly and quietly buried.
130 AeroWesty : Same strategy tried 20 years ago with Clinton and Whitewater. Try to create enough distractions to where you think he won't be able to govern while h
131 okie : Well you are too late. Exactly why Obama took the steps to have Holder have an "investigation" of an investigation of that found the IRS in a crimina
132 Post contains links seb146 : Why didn't we hear this type of outrage when NAACP and Greenpeace were targeted? http://www.salon.com/2013/05/14/when_the_irs_targeted_liberals/ So,
133 Post contains images Dreadnought : As far as I can tell, those were specific audits, and had nothing to do with a written, blanket policy to treat organizations significantly worse bas
134 seb146 : A right-wing president in the White House and the IRS (director appointed by a right-winger) audited them. Compare that to: a left-wing president in
135 Boeing717200 : Absolutely, positively, yes. The country doesn't need "fixing" by the government. If you are going to depend on the government to "fix" things, then
136 cptkrell : In reference to IRS acting director Steve Miller's resignation, it is my understanding that his term was up to expire within 40 or 60 days anyway. Big
137 seb146 : What I don't get is: the right is trying to pin all this on Obama but Obama is just as angry about this as the right. He is on your side but you still
138 okie : I repeat no one wants Obama out of office. The executive branch is the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving. Okie
139 Dreadnought : Has anyone here (or anywhere) accused Obama of personally knowing anything about it? No. But I would say that the actions of the so-far unnamed respo
140 cptkrell : Seb146; just a heads-up in reference to your Rep 146 about Don Imus. He has been a firm supporter (sometimes staunchly so) of President Obama since th
141 Boeing717200 : Before you start saying its because Congress wanted to get around you should maybe figure out why the FAA was being forced to absorb so much of the D
142 seb146 : Consumer Protection Agency has vacancies and can not enforce actions. Circuit courts are sitting vacant. The right just loves this. They can, then, p
143 flyguy89 : Seeing as this agency and the Dodd-Frank law are by far the two most frightening regulatory actions facing businesses today, the economy is thankful.
144 Dreadnought : He may not have personally known about it, but he does carry some responsibility. Read my post above, which I notice nobody has refuted.
145 AeroWesty : Because it's simply an opinion, the same one Sen. Rubio came out with, devoid of examples where Obama has personally directed this "culture of intimi
146 Post contains links seb146 : Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., reacting to the claim that Miller was leaving anyway, said it seemed like he was a "perfect scapegoat" for the admini
147 Post contains images Dreadnought : Wow, someone missed the point... I shall illustrate with something else flying right over your head... Focus.
148 AeroWesty : I got the point, nice photo to illustrate where your deflection is going, even though crash and burn would have been more appropriate.
149 AeroWesty : Again, I've read it, along with your history of lying on this board, and now your memes straight out of kindergarten art class. That doesn't counter
150 Boeing717200 : Consumer protection has vacancies? What ever will we do without consumer protection? Backlogs in the court? You speak as if this is new. Last years b
151 Dreadnought : Please explain where I lied. Precise examples please. It's a corporate culture thing. Let's see, how about Fast & Furious, Solyndra, Pigford, Fis
152 AeroWesty : Benghazi thread, 5/10/2013 15:10:32PDT. I'm sure you can find it in your e-mails of deleted posts. I've a PDF of the screen capture. It was originall
153 Dreadnought : I just did. You are telling me I have to write down here the millions of words that have been written about it here? get real. You are obfuscating. T
154 AeroWesty : Just one example, Vasili. Just one.
155 Boeing717200 : Don't mind telling you... It's kinda creepy that you're saving PDFs of this forum. Kind of kills ones credibility because it moves a person from the
156 AeroWesty : Don't mind ya saying it. The search function of stored documents on my computer works much better than the a.net search, and sometimes I want to refe
157 seb146 : Because it is not a scandal in any way connected to the White House. As much as the right tries and tries, there is simply no "there" there. Why is t
158 okie : Are you rewriting the Constitution? The IRS is the Executive Branch. Okie
159 casinterest : If that is the extent of the link , it is tenuous at best, and not really worth mentioning. The real issue is the influx of applications that had to
160 rightrudder : At it's least, the government has become too big and too expensive to manage. It is a classic example of one hand not knowing what the other is doing.
161 casinterest : The argument against that is that the agency that was supposed to be executing he rules of the law, were not following the letter of the law due to n
162 okie : No the evidence that has already be admitted, shows that certain groups got approved in less than 3 weeks when the paperwork was not even complete. I
163 Post contains links fr8mech : hmmmm, haven't really been keeping up here; figured it would turn into a slugfest and get shutdown. But, some new news today...at least I haven't seen
164 Post contains links Dreadnought : We have heard from the IRS that there was a surge in applications that caused the bottleneck (that led to few delays for liberal groups while not a s
165 Post contains links rightrudder : The population has not grown that much to need the size of government we have. They are empowering themselves to overstep legislation, extend what th
166 okie : Follow the money. Okie
167 Post contains links seb146 : So, you are trying to tell me that EVERY person that works for IRS at every turn is directly controlled from the Oval Office? That EVERY employee rep
168 Post contains links Dreadnought : Indirectly, Duh! IRS reports to Treasury, and Treasury reports to the President. All are parts of the Executive branch. Of course you know this... wh
169 Post contains links seb146 : http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...irs-probe-20130515,0,4347322.story Or, not quite 100%... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...posed-to-scruti
170 Stabilator : It appears that this is much worse than I first thought! This was silenced until after the election...senators such as Al Franken called on the IRS to
171 okie : It appears at this point the people involved at the IRS got special $100,000.00+ Bonuses, Obama had to personally sign off and approve for their spec
172 Dreadnought : Out of the ones approved during the 27 month period after 2/2010, how many had the words "Tea Party" or "Patriot" in their names? Is English a new la
173 rightrudder : The IRS paid out 92 million in bonuses during the four year period, to be exact.
174 seb146 : In the video, he said Koch Bros. got Americans For Prosperity started. Recently, a statement issued by Koch Bros. said they had nothing to do with AF
175 Dreadnought : I have never seen any such statement, and cannot find it with Google. Please provide a link. What personal attack? I am saying you don't know (or are
176 Post contains links Dreadnought : The first of (I expect) a number of lawsuits against the IRS are going to be filed this week. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...a-party-groups-pr
177 seb146 : So? After all those banks crashed our economy, the CEOs got bonuses. And not one went to jail for crashing our economy. The chair of the Fed and SEC?
178 LTBEWR : One big problem is that big political groups on both sides got approvals, while it was the smaller, regional/city groups especially on the 'conservati
179 Pyrex : Simple fix is to impose a term limit for all public employees, particularly IRS workers. Power corrupts, and absolute power (such as the one the IRS
180 Boeing717200 : The banks didn't crash the economy. Personal greed did. And it started with the consumer who bought homes they could not afford, who then took out se
181 seb146 : Boeing717200 said: "The banks didn't crash the economy. Personal greed did. And it started with the consumer who bought homes they could not afford, w
182 WestJet747 : Sorry, but that's like blaming McDonald's for making people fat. Corporations might be the vehicle that drove the economy to s***, but stupid people
183 Dreadnought : That is generally true, but there is a special case here. These were "Toxic Assets" from the beginning. They were paper that promised normal interest
184 AeroWesty : Gosh, it's only been 5 years, and people have already forgotten history. Quick and dirty: Toxic assets had been resold in packages where the underlyin
185 seb146 : And those bankers were paid millions in bonuses. And it was the right who said "So? Let them get paid their bonuses." IRS officials were paid bonuses
186 Post contains links fr8mech : Boy when you've lost Piers Morgan, you really need to take a look at what's happening (if you're the Obama Administration): http://www.youtube.com/wat
187 AeroWesty : I don't know whether to laugh or cry. An admitted wiretapper interviewing a comedian about tyranny and justice. Oh the humanity!
188 Post contains links fr8mech : Ok, how about Joe Scarbouroug at 1:01? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGUnzZK7Fpo What is happening is sad to watch, but it's interesting. Those of y
189 AeroWesty : From my perspective, no. We didn't have 24-hour news to feed, and partisan politicking wasn't as blatant as it is now. If you watch All The President
190 seb146 : No. Back then, it was reporters going after something that was there. They were given information by insiders. In Obama's case, it is House "Republic
191 fr8mech : True. I've read some things that say differently, but not having lived through it... You mean like Fox News or Brietbart? He was absolutely correct.
192 Dreadnought : Where are you getting this? I have not heard anyone (serious) accuse Obama with being directly involved with any of the above. Maybe Benghazi, but I
193 AeroWesty : Fair comment, let me explain how I see it. If you go back to when Carter came into office right after that whole episode, he wasn't fighting the Repu
194 fr8mech : I don't know. I believe, in the end, Republicans (and Democrats) do have the best interests of the country in mind. And, as it was done in '74, when
195 Boeing717200 : Yes, it is interesting how people forget. The world would be a better place if people would take a look in the mirror from time to time and accept ab
196 Post contains images AeroWesty : What was unique in this instance was that the toxic assets were resold as packages of good assets. In the past, toxics were always sold as toxics. Th
197 DeltaMD90 : I said right on from the beginning, this was my fear, but after thinking about it, I do have to ask the same question Dreadnought is asking: "Which G
198 Dreadnought : And who started that practice? It was Fannie and Freddie who started bundling these toxic assets like that.
199 AeroWesty : Fannie and Freddie bought some of the toxic assets, they weren't bundling them. WSJ: Why Toxic Assets Are So Hard to Clean Up "http://online.wsj.com/
200 seb146 : I can talk to you because you are reasonable. We don't agree on everything, but you get what I am trying to say. What I hear is the media (not just F
201 Dreadnought : Others got into the game, some dangerously (Bear Sterns was pledging the same mortgages into multiple investment bundles - a clear case of fraud). Bu
202 DeltaMD90 : Yep, the usual suspects lol. I only pointed this out because it was pointed out that I was doing the same thing. I'm gonna try and focus more on what
203 Post contains links seb146 : I understand right-wing politicians voicing concern. I would expect that in this situation. That's fine. But, as loud as some are being is just silly
204 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : 2.0? I thought we were up to 7.0
205 AeroWesty : Again, Fannie and Freddie weren't packagers, which was the point I was addressing. What you esoterically feel about the government's role in liquidit
206 okie : Well Nixon started his political enemies list and indirectly tried to use the IRS as a political tool, Nixon was never directly tied to the IRS but w
207 Dreadnought : I believe you work in the field and know what the impact of a Market Maker is. If you have a player with big pockets who is willing to buy sacks of m
208 AeroWesty : Again, Fannie and Freddie weren't packagers, which was the point I was addressing.
209 Mir : I don't recall anyone putting a gun to the head of the mortgage providers and saying "give those people mortgages without looking to see if you can a
210 LTBEWR : The Conservatives and Republicans outrage at the IRS may have a few real goals. One is to try to kill 'Obamacare' by taking away the planned part of t
211 AeroWesty : I used the word "blatant", not "bitter".
212 okie : I will comment that all they are requesting at this point is equal considerations no matter which political party is involved. There were massive don
213 seb146 : But there were tapes of Nixon incriminating himself. There are no tapes of Obama because he did nothing wrong. The far and vocal right is so willing
214 Post contains links Dreadnought : I believe you are incorrect: http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/mortgage_securi.htm
215 Mir : My point still stands - I can't see any way partisanship was as bad, overall, in Nixon's day as it is now. Even if it was as blatant, the access to i
216 okie : No there was the famous, what was it 9 minute, blank in the recording. So you know that, I should have called, the lottery was 600M I could have used
217 AeroWesty : I never argued that Fannie and Freddie didn't package mortgages at all, that's their main purpose in life. However, not all MBS' are toxic. Once agai
218 Post contains images AeroWesty : What I said: You seem to be arguing that you're disagreeing with what I said by saying almost the same thing as what I said.
219 seb146 : Right... Because one is the same as the other. Show me again how a Democrat saying ON THE RECORD he is outaged is the same thing as Nixon lying?
220 Post contains links rightrudder : 501(c)4 should remain free from politics otherwise a 527 should be used. The tax code says these groups should function in social welfare work. The p
221 okie : I keep dodging your question just to really see what you are how long you will ignore the facts. Obama was asked a precise and exact and carefully cr
222 seb146 : So, you sit there and tell me that Obama didn't know what was going on is proof he knew what was going on and I am uninformed? I'm done with you, too
223 Post contains links fr8mech : Let's assume that's President Obama knew nothing. What does that tell us? I think that David Axelrod sums it up nicely. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog
224 sccutler : As so often happens on such issues, we are seeing more trees than forest. If, as is becoming apparent, the IRS was as a matter of policy applying spec
225 fr8mech : Very well said.
226 Dreadnought : Then pray tell, why isn't the ACLU all over this IRS business like stink on sh&t? Well, not exactly - you stated a couple of times categorically
227 AeroWesty : I was always referring to your earlier statement in regards to the toxic assets, which was obvious from the full sentence you didn't quote. To unders
228 fr8mech : Because, as evidenced in the gun control argument, the ACLU is a partisan organization and will sit out stuff they disagree with. But, I do agree wit
229 Post contains links Dreadnought : You seem to be ignoring the role the GSEs and Congress played in creating the mess in the first place. Starting in the 90s, Banks and FM were under i
230 AeroWesty : Again, you're conflating two issues. The MBS is a security sold based upon its underlying value. Packages of like risk are put together and sold as o
231 seb146 : Except they don't. They are only in the news when they stand up for something the right disagrees with. Since there is no difference between the pres
232 Post contains links fr8mech : Except in the case of your gun rights. You know the rights that The USSC ruled were both individual and incorporated. But, the ACLU happens to disagr
233 Post contains links seb146 : Ah. I see. They only matter for Second Amendment cause. Nothing else matters. Sounds like a typical right-wing talking point. Because bad things happ
234 sccutler : Not sure about that, but not germane to the discussion. I believe that the ACLU does not jump into issues where they believe the injured have suffici
235 seb146 : This is what I am talking about. ACLU will fight for ANY civil liberties. I guarantee they WILL fight if the government decides to take away ALL guns
236 Boeing717200 : Nice post. My analogy... If you have weeds in your yard and you just mow over them, then it will simply spread and take over your yard. The best thin
237 Post contains links fr8mech : Just the most obvious departure from their statement on their About the ACLU page. Please show me where I say he must go. Show me where there is a ch
238 seb146 : And the President wants an investigation also. Here's the timeline the right-wing media keeps ignoring: 2012: Several groups filing for 501c4 status
239 Dreadnought : My favorite IRS information demand from Coalition for Life of Iowa (an anti-abortion group): "Please detail the content of the members of your organi
240 okie : Try 2010 seb Problem is the 3-31-10 meeting with Colleen Kelley (IRS) and Obama happens to line up perfectly with the start of the criminal and illeg
241 seb146 : So, they met. So what? Lots of people met with Obama about lots of things. This only proves they met. Nothing else. You (and the rest of the right) w
242 okie : Uh ho, Now Lener is taking the 5 th amendment. Looking like Obama is doing just a fine job of that all by himself. Okie
243 seb146 : Not connecting dots that are not there? Yep. Hmmmm... could it be that SHE ordered the probes and not Obama? That would suck for the right. I mean, t
244 okie : Right now we have a Democratic Senate Hearing lead by a Democratic Senator I am willing to see where this goes. Are you thinking the Democrats are go
245 seb146 : Nope. They are going to try to shut up the right by proving, once and for all, that Obama is not the monster they want him to be. It won't work. The
246 Dreadnought : Then she needs to be removed from office immediately. Anyone who needs to take the 5th should not be anywhere near the IRS. Another thing. Something
247 fr8mech : That's interesting. I wonder what would have been incriminating about her answers. Well, it seems that since she won't be answering any questions, we
248 seb146 : It all started with "Kenyan Muslim: fake outrage. The right has not tried this hard to remove a president. Not even Clinton. I just have to wonder. S
249 Post contains links iowaman : Due to length, this thread will be archived. Part two is available here: IRS Targeted Conservative Groups Part 2 (by iowaman May 22 2013 in Non Aviati
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