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IRS Targeted Conservative Groups Part 1  
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4515 times:

I've been pretty hard on the good ol' GOP lately, but they might have some justified outrage:

Quote:
The Internal Revenue Service acknowledged Friday that it had inappropriately targeted conservative political groups for additional scrutiny during the 2012 election cycle, an admission that set off a firestorm on Capitol Hill and could damage the Obama Administration.
http://swampland.time.com/2013/05/10...nservative-groups-over-tax-status/

Assuming all this is true (probably is since the IRS has apologized) it's very shady if you ask me. I can see the reasoning behind going after campaigns and money raising groups, but corruption with money is not a one sided issue. I have a feeling this will be made a bigger deal than it should be (as in there will be wailing and moaning for a long time) but I don't think a probe would be unjustified. I just hope it would be done in a civilized manner.

Also, I do hope the left acknowledges any wrong doing. There is constant banter back and forth about bias and all, but really, it is true to a degree. I don't think the victims should be the only one upset... unfair treatment is unfair treatment.

What do yall think?

PS: See Geezer, I stand up for the GOP sometimes  


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
249 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19495 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4513 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Also, I do hope the left acknowledges any wrong doing. There is constant banter back and forth about bias and all, but really, it is true to a degree. I don't think the victims should be the only one upset... unfair treatment is unfair treatment.

If this happened, this is totally inappropriate. But if it occurred as described, it appears that it was isolated to one group that behaved unethically and is not indicative of any action on the part of the IRS leadership or the Obama Administration.

What disturbs me is that I am absolutely certain that the Tea Party and pals will accuse the Administration of exactly that.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4500 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
Also, I do hope the left acknowledges any wrong doing.

They are already covering it up. The claim that it was just a local IRS office in Cincinnati or someplace who did it, in spite of conservative groups all over the country being targeted. I would not be surprised if the idea came down from Cabinet level, intentional or not (unintentional would be a Henry II / Thomas Becket scenario - "Will no one rid me...")

But an investigation is warranted. Mis-use of the fearsome power of the IRS is most definitely a crime - the question is who will go to jail - some flunky in Cincinnati or someone higher up.

[Edited 2013-05-10 17:49:23]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4488 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
But if it occurred as described, it appears that it was isolated to one group that behaved unethically and is not indicative of any action on the part of the IRS leadership or the Obama Administration.

What disturbs me is that I am absolutely certain that the Tea Party and pals will accuse the Administration of exactly that.

That is my fear. It is a legitimate gripe but if they start going after the President they lose their credibility (unless the President was behind it which I highly doubt)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

If the GOP plays it like that it's gonna look like another witch hunt. I'm just telling you what it would look like from me... it appears the GOP keeps crying wolf and if the administration ever did something blatantly wrong, no one is gonna listen to the GOP. Either that or there really have been a ton of administration cover ups all over the place in which case that is starting to go into tin foil hat category


I've found that it is easier to suspect foul play when you've suspected it has happened many times in the past. Just as an outside observer, it looks pretty bad. But again, I think it would behoove the Democrats in at least hearing the GOP out on the issue



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4479 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
If the GOP plays it like that it's gonna look like another witch hunt. I'm just telling you what it would look like from me... it appears the GOP keeps crying wolf and if the administration ever did something blatantly wrong, no one is gonna listen to the GOP.

So, let's say someone higher up in the administration actually used the IRS as their personal attack dog. You think we should just shut up about it? You think an investigation will magically appear? Especially how the State Department's investigation into Benghazi is itself now the subject of an independent investigation because the original investigators were apparently in the investigatees' pockets.

So if you are GOP (right-wing, conservative, whatever you want to call the opposition), you are advising us to simply "shut up and accept you are losers." If we feel that something was done wrong, we can either roll over and take it, or be accused of starting a witch hunt, crying wolf etc.

Sorry, but those don't sound like very attractive options.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4472 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
So, let's say someone higher up in the administration actually used the IRS as their personal attack dog. You think we should just shut up about it? You think an investigation will magically appear? Especially how the State Department's investigation into Benghazi is itself now the subject of an independent investigation because the original investigators were apparently in the investigatees' pockets.

Of course not. What I am warning against is them coming right out and making huge accusations. That is what I think a lot of people are just waiting for, and if/when it happens, we'll just let out a groan and say "here we go again."

What I recommend they do is stay really neutral politically and just express the need to get this straightened out. Don't bring D vs R into it right off the bat. Probe it out and see where it leads. If they see it leading upwards, follow the trail. Once they get high enough, then ask the tough questions.

Does that make sense?

Most liberals will have a liberal bias... that's not wrong, that's just how people are. It's almost impossible to stay 100% objective. What I am (anecdotally) seeing are the moderates also being wary of GOP criticisms. Unless the GOP is completely correct all the time and the President has been the most sneaky, cunning president we've had, the GOP has cried wolf quite a few times and it's bugging the moderates. The 51% of the vote that the President got in November wasn't just Democrats, don't forget



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4463 times:

In the midst of all of this outrage, a little-known factoid surfaces. The IRS Commissioner during this supposed fiasco, Douglas Shulman, was appointed by President Bush. Oh dear!

Source: Tea Party Rejects IRS Apology, Republicans Vow Investigation



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4445 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Of course not. What I am warning against is them coming right out and making huge accusations. That is what I think a lot of people are just waiting for, and if/when it happens, we'll just let out a groan and say "here we go again."

What I recommend they do is stay really neutral politically and just express the need to get this straightened out. Don't bring D vs R into it right off the bat. Probe it out and see where it leads. If they see it leading upwards, follow the trail. Once they get high enough, then ask the tough questions.

Does that make sense?

Fair enough.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
In the midst of all of this outrage, a little-known factoid surfaces. The IRS Commissioner during this supposed fiasco, Douglas Shulman, was appointed by President Bush. Oh dear!

Source: Tea Party Rejects IRS Apology, Republicans Vow Investigation

So?

And they are right not to accept the apology. Someone needs to go to jail. Presuming that what they are saying is true and it was some low level guys who decided to go rogue, they need to be made an example of.

I don't know if anyone here knows anyone someone who was targeted by the IRS. It's scary. You are guilty until proven innocent. They can freeze your assets, they can put a complete hold on your business, your business associates vendors and customers start getting calls from the IRS, which quickly leads them to stop doing business with you. You want to know a particular specialty of the IRS? They will go to your spouse and find some incentive (money, immunity, whatever) to convince him/her to tell them any dirt on you they know. Even if their investigation eventually turns up nothing (true in every case I know of personally), your life is truly f&cked. All without a warrant or even probable cause. A suspicion is enough. I've seen it happen to a couple of people.

So when the IRS starts sniffing around, people get scared, even if you have never done anything worse than jaywalking. ANYONE who uses their power at or over the IRS who uses them to go after political enemies or even the boy who used to bully them at school should be put away in a deep corner of a Federal Penitentiary.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
In the midst of all of this outrage, a little-known factoid surfaces. The IRS Commissioner during this supposed fiasco, Douglas Shulman, was appointed by President Bush. Oh dear!

The Irony of all this just bleeds of stupidity from the GOP. More OVERSIGHT Hearings because their weren't ENOUGH people in GOVERNMENT jobs doing the right thing, Kind of funny. Less time doing items that matter, such as making sure proper training and guidelines are in place to keep this from happening again . Instead they are going to wonder why the watchers weren't being watched and are sure to recommend more watchers.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4427 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
So?

The president placed his trust in a political appointee belonging to a party who'd rather see him out of the Oval Office as soon as possible, even before the end of his term. What does he get in return for his trust, but a fiasco to deal with.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 8):
The Irony of all this just bleeds of stupidity from the GOP. More OVERSIGHT Hearings because their weren't ENOUGH people in GOVERNMENT jobs doing the right thing, Kind of funny. Less time doing items that matter, such as making sure proper training and guidelines are in place to keep this from happening again . Instead they are going to wonder why the watchers weren't being watched and are sure to recommend more watchers.

No need for that. You just need to ensure that those who use their government position for their personal agendas are punished severely. I'm talking 20 years to life, severely.

I guarantee that if this "apology" is allowed to stand, that we take the IRS at their word that the guilty party will be dealt with (slap on the wrist, or fired) that such abuse of the IRS and other government agencies to serve political or personal goals will become more and more common - regardless of the party in power. Such abuse must be dealt with "with extreme prejudice".

[Edited 2013-05-10 19:54:58]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8103 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4414 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
No need for that. You just need to ensure that those who use their government position for their personal agendas are punished severely. I'm talking 20 years to life, severely.

This is a pretty unrealistic expectation though. Feds protect their own. This is like asking policemen to keep each other in check - nobody's going to blow a whistle on this kind of thing unless they are prepared for a sh*tstorm or otherwise don't have anything to lose.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13072 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4408 times:

Perhaps too the IRS was trying to save it's own neck, since the Tea Party & Patriot groups often attack and want to destroy or pretty much neuter the IRS.
There were a lot of these groups and their local chapters in a short time, the IRS may have seen that a fast growing number of groups of a similar theme may be a new tax scam.
There are likely to be a lot more 'liberals' and non-white workers in the IRS like many government agencies, so some of them may have wanted to target them due to their beliefs. Were they so careful with 'Occupy' groups that sought tax-exempt status?
Sadly there is a long history of 'religious' groups that are scams, celebrities and sports stars who set up 'foundations' that do little of true benefit but provide no or little show jobs for relatives and friends and NFP's run with the tax exemptions to 'profit' the creators of them or really related to a profit making business.
I do hope there is a balanced and through investigation, but we also need new and better laws to better define NFP's for tax exempt status, caps on expenses, minimum benefits to the public and stricter on pay and benefits of managers and 'owners'.


User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4403 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
No need for that. You just need to ensure that those who use their government position for their personal agendas are punished severely. I'm talking 20 years to life, severely.

Can you rejoin the real world please?

We are talking about auditing those that are claiming tax exemptions. Sure it could have been more balanced, but from the way I see it, we don't even know what percentage of the new tax exemption request were from Conservative Establishments vs others. At the very least the IRS was being vigilant against fraud. Overzealous and misdirected here, possibly. However it falls within their job description to be skeptical of a bunch of applications.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
They are already covering it up. The claim that it was just a local IRS office in Cincinnati or someplace who did it, in spite of conservative groups all over the country being targeted.

The IRS office in Cincinnati was the one responsible for dealing with approving tax-exempt status for organizations all over the country, which is why it's involved. This wasn't the IRS targeting individuals in conservative groups, it was the IRS being extra critical of applications for tax-exempt status. Which doesn't make it any less wrong, but it's important to keep things in perspective - the idea that anyone was at risk of having their assets frozen or anything like that is, at this point, unsubstantiated.

Obviously, this needs to be investigated, and those responsible need to be held accountable. And at the same time, maybe we can shed some light on the whole process by which organizations get tax-exempt status, because that whole process seems to be a mess rife with loopholes and shady metrics for figuring out which organizations are really political organizations and which are really legitimate social welfare groups.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
However it falls within their job description to be skeptical of a bunch of applications.

To be biased? Should they be skeptical of certain minorities that make a lot of money because it's suspicious they make a lot of money? Can the left not be shady when it comes to money? IIRC, the President raised more money than Romney did.

Dismissing legit bias like this only fuels the GOP and it should. It's unfair and shouldn't be dismissed. We are by and large against profiling, why do we treat 'TP groups' as if they are shady criminals?

Wrong wrong wrong IMO



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
To be biased?

We don't know for sure that it was bias. While I don't think it likely, it's not out of the realm of possibility that there was a process set up that ended up disproportionately affecting conservative groups but that wasn't intended to do so. That's why there needs to be a thorough but unbiased investigation, and then after that's done we can figure out who was doing what and what their motivation was, and then they can be held accountable if there was willful wrongdoing.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4386 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
If there was a specific targeting of "Conservative Groups", then some folks need to lose their jobs. However prison is a bit of an overreach for someone making sure that folks are paying taxes in the US through documentation.

Ah gotcha. I just fear this'll be blown off by the left when the right actually has a legit gripe. Would like to see things begin to get patched up



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4379 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
Ah gotcha. I just fear this'll be blown off by the left when the right actually has a legit gripe. Would like to see things begin to get patched up

It should''t ;t be blown of by the left, but the GOP is already making it a political issue, when it should just be an issue of common sense that "auditing" needs to be random or uniformly endorsed without specific targeting. The GOP however seems to be ready to make it a political issue, and one that detracts from the Government doing what it needs to do.

Those folks at the IRS have been there through multiple administrations, and not all of them are of one party. They belong to multiple parties.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4369 times:

Is this what they hired 16,500 new IRS agents to do?


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

The White House already said the felt the actions were bad and IRS also said BOTH parties were targeted.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...tive-groups-2012-election/2149939/
White House spokesman Jay Carney on Friday afternoon called the IRS action "inappropriate" and said the Obama administration supports a full investigation
But, the right wing media will ignore that. Much like they ignore anything coming from the White House. They set their own talking points, however false, and build their stories around that.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4358 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
Is this what they hired 16,500 new IRS agents to do?


http://www.factcheck.org/2010/03/irs-expansion/

Q: Will the IRS hire 16,500 new agents to enforce the health care law?

A: No. The law requires the IRS mostly to hand out tax credits, not collect penalties. The claim of 16,500 new agents stems from a partisan analysis based on guesswork and false assumptions, and compounded by outright misrepresentation.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4314 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
Q: Will the IRS hire 16,500 new agents to enforce the health care law?

A: No. The law requires the IRS mostly to hand out tax credits, not collect penalties. The claim of 16,500 new agents stems from a partisan analysis based on guesswork and false assumptions, and compounded by outright misrepresentation.

So it's all just a coincidence that the IRS had 16,500 new hires waiting in the wings ready for work just 72 hours after the Supreme Court upheld Obamacare; after all it was considered a 'tax'.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4306 times:

Not sure why anyone is surprised by this. After all, the infamous Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the icon of the left, was notorious for using all the power of the IRS to target his political enemies (even those of the same party as him who had the misfortune of crossing him). Maybe this is what they mean when they say they want a new "New Deal".

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
No. The law requires the IRS mostly to hand out tax credits, not collect penalties.

So those tax credits just hand themselves, is it? Naughty, naughty tax credits.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4327 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
So it's all just a coincidence that the IRS had 16,500 new hires waiting in the wings

Give it a rest, 'fly.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19495 posts, RR: 58
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4377 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
They are already covering it up.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
That is my fear.

There you go.

Here we go with another witch hunt. Maybe the GOP should dedicate lots of taxpayer dollars to this.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
the IRS had 16,500 new hires

Oh, my stars! A job creator! How dare there be any job creation! Blasphemy! No job creation shall happen under GOP control. None. At all. Obama should never look like he is doing anything for the good of the people. Things like creating jobs. Perish the thought.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):
Give it a rest, 'fly.

So it's all just a coincidence that the IRS had 16,500 new hires waiting in the wings ready for work just 72 hours after the Supreme Court upheld Obamacare; after all it was considered a 'tax'.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 24):
Not sure why anyone is surprised by this. After all, the infamous Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the icon of the left, was notorious for using all the power of the IRS to target his political enemies (even those of the same party as him who had the misfortune of crossing him). Maybe this is what they mean when they say they want a new "New Deal".

  

Quoting seb146 (Reply 27):
Oh, my stars! A job creator! How dare there be any job creation! Blasphemy! No job creation shall happen under GOP control. None. At all. Obama should never look like he is doing anything for the good of the people. Things like creating jobs. Perish the thought.

If it were to hire new forest rangers to work with Smokey the Bear then I'm all in favor.
Of all branches of government to hire new employees, why the IRS? Probably the most hated government agency.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4324 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 28):
So it's all just a coincidence that the IRS had 16,500 new hires waiting in the wings ready for work just 72 hours after the Supreme Court upheld Obamacare; after all it was considered a 'tax'.

Let's see how you got there. Give us some credible links to back this up. No whining.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 28):
If it were to hire new forest rangers to work with Smokey the Bear then I'm all in favor.
Of all branches of government to hire new employees, why the IRS?

I will grant you that people do hate IRS. But, if 16,500 forest rangers were hired, the right would scream about how Obama is wasting money on the environment. Besides, could it be there is a back-log of cases in general? Why were there 16,500 people hired by IRS? Where are they working? What cities and what departments? What was the cause of it? You simply threw the number out there and gave your opinion as to why, but what is the real reason?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
No whining.

Follow your own advice and stop whining. I simply asked a question. Now you want to play a game of 'who's source is better than the others'.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
if 16,500 forest rangers were hired, the right would scream about how Obama is wasting money on the environment.

Since that never happened, just make $h!t up anyway.  
Of not all 16,500 should work as forest rangers. There are other departments as well and the IRS doesn't need to get any bigger.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31):
Now you want to play a game of 'who's source is better than the others'.

It's only a request to see a source for your claim. I've looked, done my research, and only come up with what I posted. My mind is perfectly open to other points of view with the corresponding data, of which you've provided none so far for anyone to evaluate for its accuracy. The ball is truly in your court.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
But, if 16,500 forest rangers were hired, the right would scream about how Obama is wasting money on the environment.

To be fair, that is quite a bit of forest rangers and would probably indeed be a waste  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4230 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
It's only a request to see a source for your claim.

Question, not a claim.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
To be fair, that is quite a bit of forest rangers and would probably indeed be a waste

Read again;

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31):
Of not all 16,500 should work as forest rangers. There are other departments as well and the IRS doesn't need to get any bigger.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
Question, not a claim.

Looks like a claim to me:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
the IRS had 16,500 new hires waiting in the wings ready for work just 72 hours after the Supreme Court upheld Obamacare



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4217 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
Question, not a claim.

Your question was:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
Is this what they hired 16,500 new IRS agents to do?

Since the validity of the question is entirely dependent on there actually being 16,500 new IRS agents, it is incumbent on you to provide a source for that information.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4217 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):

Gosh darn it. They're all conservative websites. Only liberal news sources are valid, right?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
They're all conservative websites.

That's fine, they need to provide logical sources for their facts as well. I've already posted that at least I would review anything with an open mind. We await your link!



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
We await your link!

No offense but that scares the hell out of me coming from you!   

"We" is rather presumptive considering most here probably don't give a damn one way or the other.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
No offense but that scares the hell out of me coming from you!

Non-sequitur alert!   Enough with the meta-discussion, time for the substance.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4143 times:

"16500 New Agents" earned a "mostly false" on the truth-meter.

http://www.politifact.com/georgia/st...gents-will-enforce-obama-health-c/

Honestly I think the GOP/TP needs to let it go. I'm sure whoever is responsible will be dealt with. There is no reason for tinfoil hattery. We have bigger and better things to take care of in this country besides the constant partisan talk points.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 41, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 41):
Honestly I think the GOP/TP needs to let it go.

Perhaps, if justice is served. I just find it ironic... not possible to prove but I think if the sides were flipped and the IRS targeted liberal groups certain people would be making a bigger deal out of it than they are now. Not naming anyone in specific from a.net, just in general. It's interesting, and part of the reason I started this thread. Overall, I am happy, it wasn't blown off by most left leaning posters, they have some of the same concerns that I do about it going too far or not far enough...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 42, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 41):
Honestly I think the GOP/TP needs to let it go. I'm sure whoever is responsible will be dealt with.

Not necessarily. They should look into what happened, sure, and they should make sure that anyone who intentionally targeted groups based on politics should be dealt with (it should come as no surprise that not everyone who makes that sort of mistake is unless there's some scrutiny of the process, in either the public or private sector).

But what they shouldn't do is put out a dragnet for any information they can find that would tie this to the White House and try and make it into an automatic scandal. They've been trying to do that with various things practically since Obama took office, and the public has had enough of it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 43, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4071 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
I think if the sides were flipped and the IRS targeted liberal groups certain people would be making a bigger deal out of it than they are now.

Two things I find interesting is: When GWB was in power and there were shady dealings going on, no one on the right said much of anything. Secret energy meetings, congressional hearings off the record, hell, even the IRS might have targeted left-wing political organizations. Anything is possible. But, now that far-right wing groups were targeted by low-level agents, this is Obama's fault. Even though top level IRS officials said even some left-wing groups got the same treatment.

Also, About the Politifact article: I am disappointed that Jon Huntsman jumped on the "16,500" bandwagon.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 44, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4061 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 44):

Someone has to break the cycle. Do the Democrats not have the high ground to do that? That is my point. There is a lot of "well the other side did this so we're gonna do that" or "where was the outrage then?" I'm kinda doing that but only to get the ball rolling now if that makes sense. If worse comes to worse, at least the Dems would do the right thing in this case and maintain the moral high ground if the GOP doesn't do the same in the future... there is no high ground in saying "but they did the same thing we did!"

Not attacking Dems here Seb, just trying to get them to do the right thing. I attack the GOP just as much, probably been more critical of them lately



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4055 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
If worse comes to worse, at least the Dems would do the right thing in this case and maintain the moral high ground if the GOP doesn't do the same in the future...

The moral high ground is only useful if the electorate respects it. At the moment, I'm not convinced that they do.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4052 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
Not attacking Dems here Seb, just trying to get them to do the right thing. I attack the GOP just as much, probably been more critical of them lately

I know.

I am sick and tired of this madness that went on for eight years only to have the same party that did it turn around and start screaming about cleaning up the government. Where were they during the eight years of GWB? Where was the outrage from the right during the two terms of GWB?

I think it is worthless for them to, now, start screaming about morality and corrupt government when they proved they do the exact same thing with no care or regard for the American people. They could have stopped it then. They could have been the moral high grounders. But, no. They did what they did and now expect the American people to be outraged. Even after the stuff they pulled. Sorry, but I just can't get behind that.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4049 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
They did what they did and now expect the American people to be outraged. Even after the stuff they pulled. Sorry, but I just can't get behind that.

Ah, but neither can I. I will get behind a legitimate probe into this but I won't join their howls. That is only fair.

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
The moral high ground is only useful if the electorate respects it. At the moment, I'm not convinced that they do.

The way I look at it, the Dems don't have to do much, just stay above water as the GOP drowns themselves. It's really ugly for the GOP now, the Dems can act a little shady and get away with it just because the GOP is so bad, but I hope they wouldn't



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4020 times:

Oh dear, apparently Bush-appointee Shulman knew about the targeting. The targeting also isn't apparently any new revelation, since Shulman testified about it in front of Congress over a year ago.

IRS officials knew of tea party targeting

Quote:
Senior Internal Revenue Service officials knew employees were singling out conservative groups for extra scrutiny as early as 2011, according to a watchdog agency’s report set to be released next week, POLITICO has confirmed from a congressional source.

The disclosure that senior officials knew agents were flagging applications containing the words “patriot” or “tea party” contradicts public statements by former IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman. He repeatedly denied that his agency was targeting conservative groups when asked by Congress last year.

“There’s absolutely no targeting. This is the kind of back and forth that happens to people” who apply for tax-exempt status, Shulman told a House Ways and Means subcommittee in March 2012.


What did Shulman know, and when did he know it?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
apparently Bush-appointee Shulman knew about the targeting.

I just wonder if this IRS story will be "breaking news" this coming week.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 49):
I just wonder if this IRS story will be "breaking news" this coming week.

Sure it will, as the plot thickens and more information is becoming available it appears they are targeting any one or any organisation that does not tow the Democratic party line.


In appearance, it is starting to look like Hugo Chavez would be proud of the current administration's tactics to destroy free speech and control the media. That is my thought.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 47):
Ah, but neither can I. I will get behind a legitimate probe into this but I won't join their howls. That is only fair

I would not worry it will be someone else's fault, no one will be responsible or held to any accountability.

Okie


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3895 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 50):
the current administration's tactics to destroy free speech and control the media.

Radio stations are either music, sports or right-wing talk. Newspapers are dying out with only 10 or so being (allegedly) "liberal" and TV? Two channels that are (allegedly) "liberal". Yep. Sounds like government control to me.

Quoting okie (Reply 50):
it appears they are targeting any one or any organisation that does not tow the Democratic party line.

Like the groups filing tax exempt status that were supporting Democrats? Like those ones? Or the right-wing groups that were "investigated" under the Bush-appointed chairman? Or Issa ordering an investigation simply looking for anything to make Obama look bad?

How about this: How about Congress do it's job and make budgets and reduce the deficit and create jobs instead of spending our money on ONLY trying to make Obama look bad. It seems the more they look, the more they find they are the ones looking bad!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 14
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

You know, this isn't really a left/right issue. It's a fundamental issue of freedom.

If what we read is true...and I have to believe it is true since the IRS has apologized for it, it is scary. Whether its a push from the administration, a decision by a senior IRS official or some low-level local decision, it's a serious problem that should not be shrugged off as business as usual.

I've heard that The White House has condemned this and that President Obama said people will be punished. I hope this is true. I haven' personally seen or read a direct quote, but that's ok.

I want to see someone or a bunch of someones fired over this...and prosecuted if it's found that this was actual malfeasance and not some low-level flunkiy trying to make points with the boss.

And, you know what: if it does roll up to Obama and his administration: well then I direct you here:

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/impeachments/nixon.htm

) He has, acting personally and through his subordinated and agents, endeavored to obtain from the Internal Revenue Service, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, confidential information contained in income tax returns for purposes not authorized by law, and to cause, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, income tax audits or other income tax investigation to be initiated or conducted in a discriminatory manner.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 50):
In appearance, it is starting to look like Hugo Chavez would be proud of the current administration's tactics to destroy free speech and control the media. That is my thought.

Wow, either provide proof to back up your statements or give me some tin foil. Besides this case that hasn't been fully investigated yet and isn't connected to the President yet (if ever,) what solid other cases do you have? That there are a few left leaning news sources? What about FOX News and talk radio? It all evens out, there is bias on both ends, and there is plenty of right wing news that makes it out

Quoting seb146 (Reply 51):
Like the groups filing tax exempt status that were supporting Democrats?

Erm, well don't forget that the IRS did admit it was targeting right wing groups. I'm sure some left wing organizations got caught in the crossfire, but it's looking like some shady stuff against the right did occur. We gotta own it... it happened, let's fix it. Trying to dismiss the issue or kinda dodge it is gonna look very suspicious. Right wing groups were targeted... that is pretty much given

Quoting seb146 (Reply 51):
under the Bush-appointed chairman?

To be fair, it is pretty ironic, but that doesn't mean he's incapable of targeting right wing groups or make it any less bad (assuming he's connected)

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 52):
I've heard that The White House has condemned this and that President Obama said people will be punished. I hope this is true. I haven' personally seen or read a direct quote, but that's ok.

Well I hope he does follow up and I hope he shows what he's doing publicly enough. There will always be those who say he's trying to politicize it, he didn't do enough, he is just trying to undo the mistake he made, he intentionally planned this out so he could look good solving a problem, etc but you'll always have those tin foil hat people... to moderates though, I'm sure it would look in good faith and bipartisan



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 52):
If what we read is true...and I have to believe it is true since the IRS has apologized for it, it is scary. Whether its a push from the administration, a decision by a senior IRS official or some low-level local decision, it's a serious problem that should not be shrugged off as business as usual.

  
What is interesting is that it appears the IRS have not found any wrong doing on the behalf of the people or organizations investigated. So far anyway, we know the people and organizations are following the tax laws to the letter. I am sure if they had found a problem it would have been all over the media.

Okie


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
PS: See Geezer, I stand up for the GOP sometimes

Don't worry, he'll soon be here, linking it to some sort of revenge for what happened to ACORN.  


User currently offlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3363 posts, RR: 12
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 55):
Don't worry, he'll soon be here,

He's been temporarily banned.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3782 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 53):
well don't forget that the IRS did admit it was targeting right wing groups

Could it be the one office used an algorithm to search titles and basic descriptions for words like "patriot" and "tea party" and caught left leaning groups who are opposed to "tea party" and who promote themselves as "patriots" as well?

And, no, it is not a left/right issue. However, House "Republicans" will refuse to see that. All they want is Obama ousted.

I am sick and tired of our elected officials who told us they would get the economy running again now spending money on witch hunts. They create scandal and use it to make Obama and Clinton look bad. How about spending all that time and money and energy getting us back to work?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 57):
Could it be the one office used an algorithm to search titles and basic descriptions for words like "patriot" and "tea party" and caught left leaning groups who are opposed to "tea party" and who promote themselves as "patriots" as well?

Seriously?

To quote George Will: "But they said a) it was inadvertent. It was just some odd underlings out in Cincinnati who did this. And there was no political motive whatever involved. Now the question is, how stupid do they think we are? Just imagine, if the George W. Bush administration had IRS underlings, out in Cincinnati of course, saying, “We’re going to target groups with the word ‘progressive’ in their title,” we would have all hell breaking loose."

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 51):
Newspapers are dying out with only 10 or so being (allegedly) "liberal" and TV? Two channels that are (allegedly) "liberal". Yep. Sounds like government control to me

An we have Eric Holder going after the Associated Press requesting records phone calls both personal and business.

Puhleeze, I stand by may statement.

Okie


User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3768 times:

Guess nobody's been watching this PM's TV newsies. Seems like it is now appearing this deal goes way up the "chain of command" at the IRS and pretty far back timewise, too. At least as per FOX (horrors), and ABC, CBS and NBC (I can hardly believe that) are now on the bandwagon leading with this whole situation in the first segments of their nightly news broadcasts with more than just a passing mention. Should be interesting to say the least. best regards...jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 59):
An we have Eric Holder going after the Associated Press requesting records phone calls both personal and business.

In connection with an investigation that they were doing.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they were right to do so, but you can bet that when the facts come out of that one, the story will be more complex than just "the Justice department just decided to subpoena phone records for no reason", which is a conclusion that one might draw from the headline.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 62, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 58):
Just imagine, if the George W. Bush administration had IRS underlings, out in Cincinnati of course, saying, “We’re going to target groups with the word ‘progressive’ in their title,” we would have all hell breaking loose."

Like people being detained and put on no-fly lists because they were protesting W and the Iraq war? Like "free speech zones"? Oh, wait... money is speech and the more money someone has, the more their speech counts. I forgot the new "Republican" party motto...



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3608 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 57):
I am sick and tired of our elected officials who told us they would get the economy running again now spending money on witch hunts. They create scandal and use it to make Obama and Clinton look bad. How about spending all that time and money and energy getting us back to work?

Oh stop...your agenda is so plainly clear. Heaven forbid someone has a problem with little ole Obama's administration.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 64, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 62):
Like people being detained and put on no-fly lists because they were protesting W and the Iraq war? Like "free speech zones"? Oh, wait... money is speech and the more money someone has, the more their speech counts. I forgot the new "Republican" party motto...

I'm just guessing here, but suppose, just hypothetically, that live on CNN that a democratic politician stabs if wife in the back with a knife, you'd give an excuse like "Oh, he was just trying to help her with an itch."

You funny. How about discussing the subject rather than servile deflection attempts.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 65, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3700 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 63):
your agenda is so plainly clear
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
How about discussing the subject rather than servile deflection attempts.

You on the right want nothing more than Obama to be ousted. That's it. You all want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours doing zero for the people. For us. For those who elected those self-serving jerks. That's all you want. To see Obama disgraced. Nothing more. None of you at all want to help the economy. None of you want affordable health care for all. None of you want anything but to see Obama out of office. For any reason.

We, the SANE people of the United States, are SICK AND FRACKIN tired of this horse pucky! We want real work done for US. For the electorate. Not to get the president removed for something HE IS APPALLED WITH!!!

These stupid witch hunts just make your party look even more stupid. "He said 'act of terror' instead of 'terrorist act' so we must remove him from office!!" or "He knew nothing and had no control of IRS agents so we must remove him from office!!"

Get over yourselves. Get back to governing like we elected you to.

And you that simply parrot what the right-wing talking heads tell you to parrot need to remove the tin-foil hats and think for yourself.

Besides, what about all those times that Bush did something and all we heard was "you hate America!"

Well, guess what: You hate America, even more than we did!! At least we were protesting a war and spending. All you people are protesting is a Democrat in office.

Get over yourself. And stop hating America.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 66, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3696 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 65):
You on the right want nothing more than Obama to be ousted. That's it. You all want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours doing zero for the people. For us. For those who elected those self-serving jerks. That's all you want. To see Obama disgraced. Nothing more. None of you at all want to help the economy. None of you want affordable health care for all. None of you want anything but to see Obama out of office. For any reason.

Erm, I just want to see justice done. I hope you know I've got no ill will towards the President and I'd be shocked if he was involved. But the conservatives were wronged, and unlike some of their other issues which I personally think turn into witch hunts, I think they might actually have a real issue here. Doesn't excuse them if they go off the deep end, but simply shrugging this off is wrong too



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 67, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 65):
You on the right want nothing more than Obama to be ousted. That's it. You all want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours doing zero for the people.

Blah blah blah. Obama will not be ousted. He'll serve out his term. Deomcrats in the House and Senate will never elect to impeach - even if the did the stabbing. Happy? You have anger issues, my friend, when you have to work your way to such a frenzy. "Ahhh, they're all after us!" It's silly.

That said, it is our duty as citizens (and it is the duty of the press) to scream and yell when the government crosses the line - particularly when using the power of government to intimidate or silence dissenting voices. When a government agency, our most feared government agency, with the power to destroy individuals, becomes a corrupt political tool, it has lost all credibility. The IRS can seize your assets, your property, your bank accounts with little or no protection for citizens and soon it will be in charge of your health care. Play ball, or get ready for audits and "inquiries", maybe?

And if this had happened under bush, you'd be (correctly) screaming bloody murder. C'mon, No-fly lists (quickly fixed), compared with the IRS, without a doubt the most powerful branch of the US government? Nothing compares to the IRS. If the FBI wants to make life miserable for you, they need warrants. The IRS does not. The IRS must be the most squeaky-clean part of government, due to this power, and any employee that shows the slightest hint of introducing personal or political agendas into their work must be immediately sacked or transferred outside the IRS.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 68, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3630 times:

Now it's starting to get interesting...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e2-97d4-a479289a31f9_story.html

Internal Revenue Service officials in Washington and at least two other offices were involved with investigating conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status, making clear that the effort reached well beyond the branch in Cincinnati that was initially blamed, according to documents obtained by The Washington Post.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 69, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 68):
Now it's starting to get interesting...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e2-97d4-a479289a31f9_story.html

Internal Revenue Service officials in Washington and at least two other offices were involved with investigating conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status, making clear that the effort reached well beyond the branch in Cincinnati that was initially blamed, according to documents obtained by The Washington Post.

I am still waiting to see the full report. I still think that most of this is due to the rapid rise of tea party groups and the supreme court decision to basically allow corporations to buy elections.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 70, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3620 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
I still think that most of this is due to the rapid rise of tea party groups and the supreme court decision to basically allow corporations to buy elections.

There is no question that there are a lot of groups trying to get in under the 501(c)(4) umbrella, not just conservative groups but liberal ones as well, and it's not surprising that it's causing issues with the IRS, who has to figure out where the very blurry line between what constitutes social work and what constitutes political activity actually is.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 71, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):

I am still waiting to see the full report. I still think that most of this is due to the rapid rise of tea party groups and the supreme court decision to basically allow corporations to buy elections.

And presumably that we can power the world's energy needs on unicorn farts...

I'm sorry, but there are a number of people who are so willing to believe (or at least pretend to believe) that this was all some innocent mistake. I can accept the idea that this came from low down on the totem pole and that nobody at the White House knew anything about it, if that is the conclusion if a legitimate investigation. But the idea that the policy was completely innocent or balanced...

[Edited 2013-05-14 10:50:50]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3613 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 71):
And presumably that we can power the world's energy needs on unicorn farts...

Awesome dude. You are so right. You deserve a medal for your lack of class.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 71):
I'm sorry, but there are a number of people who are so willing to believe (or at least pretend to believe) that this was all some innocent mistake. I can accept the idea that this came from low down on the totem pole and that nobody at the White House knew anything about it, if that is the conclusion if a legitimate investigation. But the idea that the policy was completely innocent or balanced...

How cute of you to edit later on after such a short small though out post. . It is not about belief .
I want the raw numbers of applications vs targeting . If this "Tea Party" , "patriots", "9/12" targeting is real, then let's see the numbers. Plus , what are the numbers that were denied after filling out the appropriate information ? I find it hard to believe with them amount of rules in place at the IRS and "Career Government" folks that something like this would go on so long if tax exempt status was wrongfully denied.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 70):

There is no question that there are a lot of groups trying to get in under the 501(c)(4) umbrella, not just conservative groups but liberal ones as well, and it's not surprising that it's causing issues with the IRS, who has to figure out where the very blurry line between what constitutes social work and what constitutes political activity actually is.

-Mir

Well social work should not be part of it, as most of these groups are separate from social issues as Dreadnought has told us repeatedly   .



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 69):
I am still waiting to see the full report. I still think that most of this is due to the rapid rise of tea party groups and the supreme court decision to basically allow corporations to buy elections.

501 c 4's were set up for unions and corporations.
Do not let facts get in the way.

Okie


User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 75):
501 c 4's were set up for unions and corporations.
Do not let facts get in the way.

That was my point. Apparently you don't know the difference between tax exempt and non-tax exempt.


". But they can’t be primarily engaged in partisan politics or electioneering" if you are fuzzy line political . You don't get exempt.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 76):
Apparently you don't know the difference between tax exempt and non-tax exempt.

In spite of the insult caseinterest, short story, social welfare and education has to be the 501c4's primary purpose.

Okie


User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3550 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 77):
In spite of the insult caseinterest, short story, social welfare and education has to be the 501c4's primary purpose.

That is the point I was making along with a jab against a claim that social issues were not a part of the tea party groups  

At the end of the day, any group with Tea Party, Democratic Party or other politically named group is going to come under scrutiny , and it should based on how they use the funds.


If the Tea Party group of whalla whalla, wants to go out and form a group strictly to raise awareness of tea party ideals and educational formats, then that is fine. However if that same group is doing nothing more that being a fund raising arm for elections, then there is a big problem. That is why the IRS took away the Tax Exempt status of "Emerge America". A very liberal organization.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...irs-supposed-to-scrutinize-501c4s-

So my point in all of this, is that I want to see how the IRS applied the scrutiny. Because many of these tea party groups are very political. To what degree needs to be established for tax purposes.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 79, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 73):
Plus , what are the numbers that were denied after filling out the appropriate information ? I find it hard to believe with them amount of rules in place at the IRS and "Career Government" folks that something like this would go on so long if tax exempt status was wrongfully denied.

And how many legal Mexican Americans get deported after being targeted by the police? So it's ok for police to just target Mexican looking people?

It ain't right. I actually think the IRS should crack down on bogus "political" groups popping up, even if that means only conservative groups are affected buy ONLY when they target both sides equally. That is the problem here... doesn't matter if 0 conservative groups got shut down, it doesn't matter if left leaning groups inadvertently got harassed, doesn't matter that the IRS chairman was appointed by Bush (even if it's semi-ironic,) etc etc



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 80, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3548 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 79):
So it's ok for police to just target Mexican looking people?

If the law was against people looking Mexican ? Maybe. However that isn't the point.

The IRS is tasked with making a differentiation that is a million shades of gray between political and social groups. If you are going to use a political sounding name for your group, I think it will lend itself to targeting. I would expect any political sounding name tea, gop, dem, socialist, to get a fair bit of scruitiny, especially when establishing during heavy political cycles.

My question is how heavy was the targeting for the Conservative groups vs the other groups. My concern being that their may be a chorus of whining that is not consistant with how many groups were targeted and rejected.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 81, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 80):

I don't know why you're trying to argue it was ok, the IRS and almost every Democrat I've heard have said it's wrong. They're specifically targeting a political party, how is that not wrong?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 82, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3512 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 81):
Quoting casinterest (Reply 80):

I don't know why you're trying to argue it was ok, the IRS and almost every Democrat I've heard have said it's wrong. They're specifically targeting a political party, how is that not wrong?

Because according to him and Nancy Pelosi, it's all the supreme court's fault because of Citizens United  


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 81):
I don't know why you're trying to argue it was ok, the IRS and almost every Democrat I've heard have said it's wrong. They're specifically targeting a political party, how is that not wrong?

Perhaps every Democrat you heard said its wrong, but if Republicans call for impeachment of Obama, the Democrats in the Senate would happily defend Obama for his corrupt actions.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 84, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 83):
Perhaps every Democrat you heard said its wrong

Uh, so you disagree with them when they said the IRS was wrong for targeting conservatives?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 83):
but if Republicans call for impeachment of Obama, the Democrats in the Senate would happily defend Obama for his corrupt actions.

Which corrupt actions? Are you talking about the IRS? Please tell me you are not. If you are then please, show us the proof the President was involved (and no BS.) And note, I'm not saying anyone is innocent, I'm just saying he's not guilty. I'd hope the entire Congress would defend the President if they tried to impeach him now, there is no evidence that he did anything wrong!  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2578 posts, RR: 7
Reply 85, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3461 times:

Well here's at least one time the IRS did it to a (more or less) progressive group back in 2004:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...ted-naacp-in-2004-91284.html?hp=f1


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 14
Reply 86, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3455 times:

Ok, I haven't been keeping up with this thread because I figured it would fall into partisan lines with those on the left firmly defending President Obama and his administration and those on the right calling for his impeachment.

But, I have one question:

Since, the IRS has apologized and admitted to do this, in essence breaking the law, why hasn't anyone been fired yet? Prosecutions can come later. I can wait for those.

Why hasn't anyone, from the low level flunky who will be blamed, to the office manager, to the area manager, to the director. Why hasn't anyone been fired? How about a suspension? Just one? One?

I'm waiting. If president Obama is as outraged as he says he is, why does everyone still have a job?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 87, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 88):
Since, the IRS has apologized and admitted to do this, in essence breaking the law, why hasn't anyone been fired yet? Prosecutions can come later. I can wait for those.

Why hasn't anyone, from the low level flunky who will be blamed, to the office manager, to the area manager, to the director. Why hasn't anyone been fired? How about a suspension? Just one? One?

I'm waiting. If president Obama is as outraged as he says he is, why does everyone still have a job?

We're so used to instant action, but honestly, things take time. I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being. And depending on how high (or low) this scandal goes up the chain of command, should the President really be doing the firing? He should definitely hold them accountable but I think that if the President pulled rank and started firing people, that would be micromanaging.

We see the President firing generals, but we don't see him arresting Pvt Manning or the Boston bomber because that isn't his job

Give it time, but keep an eye out in the mean time



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 88, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3441 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 88):
I'm waiting. If president Obama is as outraged as he says he is, why does everyone still have a job?

Remember the White House Travel Office scandal of the early 90s? Outside of jobs which require presidential nomination, or are his Cabinet, or limited close personal staff, presidents and first ladies shouldn't be firing people as a matter of course.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 14
Reply 89, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3432 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 90):
Remember the White House Travel Office scandal of the early 90s? Outside of jobs which require presidential nomination, or are his Cabinet, or limited close personal staff, presidents and first ladies shouldn't be firing people as a matter of course.

I don't buy it, this scandal, coupled with Fast and Furious, Benghazi and the AP thing can bring down his presidency and make his next 3 years completely irrelevant.

The director, whom he has absolute authority over, should have been gone by Sunday morning. The Treasury Secretary should be sweating his job.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 90, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3424 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 91):
The director, whom he has absolute authority over, should have been gone by Sunday morning.

I haven't read every detail, but the administrator whom under these improprieties took place already resigned. The current administrator is only 'acting', and from what I know, has admitted mistakes were made, but says they weren't partisan. I think it'd be better to suspend people so they're still under some control, but can't cause any damage or initiate cover-ups. I don't know what everyone's internal status is. Do you know for sure one way or the other?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3423 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 81):
I don't know why you're trying to argue it was ok, the IRS and almost every Democrat I've heard have said it's wrong. They're specifically targeting a political party, how is that not wrong?

It's not specifically the targeting that is wrong. A political group needs to file a 527 and not a C4 form as their is a differentiation in their tax status. The major difference other than taxes... is the need of a 527 political org to file the list of top donors. This is where a grey line stands since the water mark is apparently a 50% political activity.

So the issue currently stands at two levels.

1. Deciding to target poltical sounding names.... This in and of itself should not be out of the ordinary as long as it is fairly distributed. There is evidence in the news that most of the influx was from tea party groups, however I would be curious to see if other liberal orgs were caught up in this . This type of targeting should be welcome, as it is part of the tax code and is the reason why the GOP and DNC are 527 organizations.

2. The real problem comes from probably a misinterpretation of the rules by the tax staff, the levels at which this occurred could be arguably made to be grounds for firing or even possibly legal action. (the more senior and tax wise agents should have known better). However the issue is as I said above that under 527, you need to disclose donors for tax purposes and donation limit reasons. The staff doing this to c4 applicants could be tied up in a misunderstanding about the fact that the information on those documents becomes public knowledge after the status is granted. However that info can be used to help determine the gray fuzzy line between a political group and social group.

3. Their is an investigation to be made, however this issue is not a barn burner or heavy issue expect for a bunch of whiny political types.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 88):
Why hasn't anyone, from the low level flunky who will be blamed, to the office manager, to the area manager, to the director. Why hasn't anyone been fired? How about a suspension? Just one? One?

Because this issue sprang from directives that everyone followed, and determining that anyone is guilty of actually doing something very wrong is difficult to gleam from the surface, as it seems to be a result of dealing with a wave of work that needed to be concentrated on in terms of working through it.

is it all the end of the world? No . Folks that were qualified for C-4's got them, and even if delayed could file for an amendment to previous tax returns.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 14
Reply 92, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3422 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 92):
I think it'd be better to suspend people so they're still under some control,

I agree. I'll settle for suspensions...for now.

I'm thinking the acting director is still on the hook, whether it was partisan or not. If he knew about it and didn't move to immediately terminate the practice and the people involved in it, he's as much to blame. The IRS was using the power of the government to stifle free speech. I could care less if they did it to Moveon.org or The Heritage Group, it was illegal and un-constitutional.

And, what about this stuff with ProPublica? What the hell is that all about?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 93, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3423 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 82):
Because according to him and Nancy Pelosi, it's all the supreme court's fault because of Citizens United

Yeah, and you and Sarah Palin can see Russia through the fuzz on the Fake News Channel.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinerightrudder From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3411 times:

We will have to wait and see what transpires at the hearing on Friday. This is a shame because as Jon Stewart says, good Government, does have the power to improve the people's lives. Yet, when he has a meltdown on this, you know it's getting good. http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...13-2013/barack-trek--into-darkness

[Edited 2013-05-14 18:59:26]


"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 95):

Ditsy as Palin may be, you're quoting Tina Fey from an NBC broadcast.

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 96):

Party is over. You can't tick off the press and expect to keep getting the pass you've been getting for 5 years.

[Edited 2013-05-14 19:31:39]

User currently offlinerightrudder From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 97):
Party is over. You can't tick off the press and expect to keep getting the pass you've been getting for 5 years.

True that. And it isn't the first time this department has stepped over it's power in the past 5 years. Early this year, The Judicial system found that they were over reaching the legislative powers. Trying to establish a nationalized tax prep. program that in theory, would be good for the whole. The only problem was that Congress establishes these laws.



"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 97, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 94):
And, what about this stuff with ProPublica? What the hell is that all about?

That is giving private and personal data that is not suppose to be available to even to the President to political groups for gain.
Simply put IRS agents were giving 501c4 donors names to opposing political groups for gain.
Sort of going to be hard to deny since ProPublica has said they got the information directly from the IRS.

I have heard grumblings of Title 18 chapter 11 thrown around (Bribery, Graft, and Conflict's of Interest) but that is just fodder until charges are actually brought to bear. Title 18 any chapter would not be any fun to be on the receiving end.

We got Holder investigating the case now, all is well, you can rest easy, there will be no waterboarding.

Okie


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 98, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 100):
I just wonder if these 504c4 corporations were being looked at to make sure they were charitable entities

I hope that is a typo, 504c plans generally refer education relating to Attention Deficit Disorder.
They looked over their applications for more than two years before the legislative branch brought the Inspector General in to resolve the Executive Branch playing politics with taxes.
You need to read the 54 page report by the IG there appears to be more going on than originally thought.

Okie


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3964 posts, RR: 2
Reply 99, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 3288 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
So if you are GOP (right-wing, conservative, whatever you want to call the opposition), you are advising us to simply "shut up and accept you are losers."

No, but a branch of the GOP sees conspiracies so often that it suffers from the broken clock syndrome, it still tells the correct time twice a day.

When you're on the outside looking in, it's hard to tell whether the clock is broken or not sometimes...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 71):
But the idea that the policy was completely innocent or balanced...

has gone out the window...

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 79):
I actually think the IRS should crack down on bogus "political" groups popping up, even if that means only conservative groups are affected buy ONLY when they target both sides equally.

Define equally.... Do the same number of applications from both sides have to be checked thoroughly, or is it 50% of the applications, even if one side has submitted a lot more than the other, or do you need equality in positive results rather than inspections? Whatever answer you pick, someone will scream "unfair."

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 88):
Since, the IRS has apologized and admitted to do this, in essence breaking the law, why hasn't anyone been fired yet? Prosecutions can come later. I can wait for those.

The flow of information can be very complex in large organizations and it may take time and efforts to find the person(s) ultimately responsible for a policy decision. High-level memos announcing a particular decision are followed by other memos explaining how to implement the decision, followed by yet other memos with pertinent, detailed instructions for front-line individuals, etc... And when you think you've reached the top, you need to make sure the author of the first memo isn't simply the secretary of a committee, or wasn't acting under direct instructions from higher up, or didn't run the idea by his supervisor for approval first... It is also quite possible that a mid-level memo writer didn't 'translate" accurately enough the higher-level memo...

If you want to avoid lawsuits for unfair dismissal and/or accusations of cover-ups and scapegoating, there is a long paper trail to follow and a lot of i's and t's to be checked.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 92):

The current commissioner is probably the one who is responsible. He was a deputy commissioner on enforcement and before that a director in charge of tax exempt organizations. My hunch is the guy that left (the evil Bush appointee) was too focused on retirement.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 101, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Quote:
In the 27 months that the Internal Revenue Service put a hold on all Tea Party applications for non-profit status, it approved applications from similar liberal groups, a USA TODAY review of IRS data shows.

As applications from conservative groups sat in limbo, groups with obviously liberal names were approved in as little as nine months. With names including words like "Progress" or "Progressive," these groups applied for the same tax status and were engaged in the same kinds of activities as the conservative groups.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-party-groups-put-on-hold/2159983/

What some people don't realize is that when a tax status is put on hold, neither denied nor granted, eventually that affects an organization's ability to raise money, as donors question whether the organization is legit, or even if they will have problems with their own taxes because of the donation. Perhaps that was the idea...



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 102, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

So, I don't understand....

These so-called "conservative" groups that applied for 501c4 status are (A) not charitable organizations and (B) were approved. Why all the b!tching and moaning?

Why? Because, as pointed out before, the right will do ANYTHING (and I mean A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G) to oust Obama from office. Even if he invades an oil rich nation on faulty intel, they would create a scandal.

BTW, if W was so intent on getting OBL, why did he say "I don't know where he is. I just don't think about him any more."? Why did he decide to pull our troops out of Afghanistan and throw our military capital into Iraq that had NOTHING to do with terrorism and Sept. 11?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 103, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3254 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 109):
Why? Because, as pointed out before, the right will do ANYTHING (and I mean A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G) to oust Obama from office. Even if he invades an oil rich nation on faulty intel, they would create a scandal.

I'm not doing anything to get the President out of office and haven't thought about that for a second. If the IRS or some organization was targeting left leaning organizations you'd be the first one on here expressing outrage.

I don't know why you keep going on about what GOP politicians once said or did, as if two wrongs make a right. Even the President himself has expressed concern about this case, what, do you think he's trying to impeach himself?

Not saying you are, but it looks like you're completely toeing the partisan line on this one



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 104, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 110):
I'm not doing anything to get the President out of office and haven't thought about that for a second.

Not you, personally. I am talking about Congress and the media.

Besides, why doesn't Congress (controlled by the right) do their job and figure out a budget and get we the people back to work? Where are the jobs we were promised by the right? Where is the budget the right promised us? We are still living under sequester. They need to work on that before trying to oust the president. What ever happened to "we must respect the office"?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 105, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 111):
Besides, why doesn't Congress (controlled by the right) do their job and figure out a budget and get we the people back to work? Where are the jobs we were promised by the right? Where is the budget the right promised us? We are still living under sequester. They need to work on that before trying to oust the president. What ever happened to "we must respect the office"?

They can do more than one thing at once. I think something should be done about it. Obviously I don't think they should be going over the deep end, but by and large (minus the few usual loudmouths) I don't think this has been too politicized, yet. Blow them off and oh boy will you create another rampage and they'll be screaming conspiracy

Then again, I haven't seen the news in the past day or so, so if a bunch of them are calling for the President's head then please correct me. But if they're just expressing outrage or whatever (the normal reaction you'd expect) then I don't see the huge outrage



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 106, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3244 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 112):
Then again, I haven't seen the news in the past day or so, so if a bunch of them are calling for the President's head then please correct me.

Most of yesterday foxnews.com devoted a large amount of screen real estate to a photo of Obama with "DAMAGE CONTROL" or some other silly phrase like 'Second term in peril' plastered over it in all caps. They've toned down the rhetoric today, but there was also a story linked on their home page yesterday analyzing the terms of impeachment.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 107, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 109):
These so-called "conservative" groups that applied for 501c4 status are (A) not charitable organizations and (B) were approved. Why all the b!tching and moaning?

Unfortunately, the real problem is that they were asking for verification of 527 status which includes donor lists... which under 501c4 are allowed to stay anonymous. This is where issues lie, because you have a real problem with verification data. This is what made the groups complain.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 113):

Most of yesterday foxnews.com devoted a large amount of screen real estate to a photo of Obama with "DAMAGE CONTROL" or some other silly phrase like 'Second term in peril' plastered over it in all caps. They've toned down the rhetoric today, but there was also a story linked on their home page yesterday analyzing the terms of impeachment.

If it's on the Fake news network , you can pretty much bet it ain't worth much.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 108, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 107):
Which was true according to all intelligence assessments available at the time, of course the Left likes to say that he "lied" about it, it provides them with an excuse for their vote for the war.

Yep exactly. The Democrats are the real liars when they claim Bush lied.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 109, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 115):
Bush lied.

Correct! Anyone who denies this is intentionally being dishonest just to defend their party.  



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 110, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 116):
Correct! Anyone who denies this is intentionally being dishonest just to defend their party.

No, anyone who BELIEVES this is intentionally being dishonest just to defend their party, and should spend a lifetime in prison.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 111, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 117):
No, anyone who BELIEVES this is intentionally being dishonest just to defend their party, and should spend a lifetime in prison.

Prison for what you believe? We're not in North Korea.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 112, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3182 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 117):
should spend a lifetime in prison.

As Bush lied about Abu Zubaydah, and you continue to maintain that Bush never lied, shouldn't you have yourself locked up for the rest of your natural life? Fair is fair.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 113, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 118):
Prison for what you believe? We're not in North Korea.

Because it is blatantly false and gives Democrats an unfair advantage. Democrats who claim Bush lied are the real liars themselves.

[Edited 2013-05-15 13:23:06]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 114, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 117):
and should spend a lifetime in prison.

Well that escalated quickly...



Flying refined.
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 115, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Also..
IRS Sent Same Letter to Democrats That Fed Tea Party Row
...
One of those groups, Emerge America, saw its tax-exempt status denied, forcing it to disclose its donors and pay some taxes. None of the Republican groups have said their applications were rejected.
...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ea-party-row.html?alcmpid=politics


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 116, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3164 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 117):
No, anyone who BELIEVES this is intentionally being dishonest just to defend their party, and should spend a lifetime in prison.

Instead of spouting out ignorant statements that would make even Stalin cringe, why don't you back up your statements with more than just mindless rants. Your track record isn't that great either, yesterday you ranted about there not being any pro life democrats in a position of power and a two second Google search proved you wrong. All this is implying you're not a troll, if you are, good job and thanks for the laugh



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 117, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...-party-progressive-groups/2158831/

Things seem to be heating up as more info comes out.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 118, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 120):
Because it is blatantly false and gives Democrats an unfair advantage. Democrats who claim Bush lied are the real liars themselves.

Over 40% of Americans still believe that the CIA or some such government organization was behind JFK's assassination. Conspiracy theories have legs. The whole "Bush Lied" conspiracy theory has been investigated in depth for years, and they all point to mistakes in judgement and perhaps some wishful thinking, but no lies.

Hell, you have numerous witnesses including Bob Woodward testifying how GWB asked the CIA director "How certain are you that we will find WMDs in Iraq" and the response was "It's a slam-dunk".

But, haters gonna hate... Facts don't much matter.

Back to the subject.

For those people who still think that the IRS was delaying liberal groups too and this is all to do about nothing, explain this:

Quote:
Lois Lerner, the senior IRS official at the center of the decision to target tea party groups for burdensome tax scrutiny, signed paperwork granting tax-exempt status to the Barack H. Obama Foundation, a shady charity headed by the president’s half-brother that operated illegally for years.

According to the organization’s filings, Lerner approved the foundation’s tax status within a month of filing, an unprecedented timeline that stands in stark contrast to conservative organizations that have been waiting for more than three years, in some cases, for approval.

Lerner also appears to have broken with the norms of tax-exemption approval by granting retroactive tax-exempt status to Malik Obama’s organization.

The National Legal and Policy Center filed an official complaint with the IRS in May 2011 asking why the foundation was being allowed to solicit tax-deductible contributions when it had not even applied for an IRS determination. In a New York Post article dated May 8, 2011, an officer of the foundation admitted, “We haven’t been able to find someone with the expertise” to apply for tax-exempt status.

Nevertheless, a month later, the Barack H. Obama Foundation had flown through the grueling application process. Lerner granted the organization a 501(c) determination and even gave it a retroactive tax exemption dating back to December 2008.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/14/ir...mption-for-obama-brothers-charity/

And yet for 27 months, not a single right-leaning organization was approved (many gave up entirely), whereas liberal groups were generally approved within 9 months.

Oh yeah, that was accidental...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...l_nonprofit_HVg4cGlfnilwMlPZpjFNdJ

The IRS needs to be gutted like a fish.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 119, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 125):
The whole "Bush Lied" conspiracy theory has been investigated in depth for years, and they all point to mistakes in judgement and perhaps some wishful thinking, but no lies.


The Two Most Essential, Abhorrent, Intolerable Lies Of George W. Bush's Memoir

Just one of many examples.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6470 posts, RR: 2
Reply 120, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 126):
The Two Most Essential, Abhorrent, Intolerable Lies Of George W. Bush's Memoir

Just one of many examples.

Sorry, but the link you provided is a biased left-wing one-sided propaganda article. No matter what links you post, anyone who claims that Bush lied are lying themselves and I can swear it to God with 100% confidence.

[Edited 2013-05-15 14:11:10]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 121, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3114 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 127):
No matter what links you post, anyone who claims that Bush lied are lying themselves and I can swear it to God with 100% confidence.

So I take it you won't be locking yourself up for life for perpetuating the Abu Zubaydah lie? That's terribly disappointing.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 122, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

It would be kind of interesting (and perhaps more of an informative cross-fire) if peoples would talk about the title thread instead of going back to Bush, et al. That was yesterday and yesterday's gone. Thank you, Chad and Jeremy from 19 frickin' 64. Yesterday's gone. This is today, 20 and fricking 13. It's the current politicos and NOT Herbert Hoover or Grover Cleveland or GWB era "Peter Princicple" cronies we're talking about here.

Speaking of cronies...where the hell is Mrs. Doubtfire when we really "need" him? regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 123, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 129):
It would be kind of interesting (and perhaps more of an informative cross-fire) if peoples would talk about the title thread instead of going back to Bush

Okay.

Let's talk about how the "Republican" controlled House is spending so much time and money, OUR tax dollars, investigating Obama. Instead, they should be figuring out a fix for the sequester and balancing the budget and helping us get to work and figuring out ways to cut waste, fraud and abuse from government instead of creating more.

But, the only thing the "Republicans" want is Obama ousted.

However, I would like to bring up one point:

How much money and time did Democrats spend, when they were the majority party, trying to bring down any Republican president? This just makes the current right-wing members of the House look foolish. Because they are doing nothing at all for we the people, they will surely lose their majority come 2014.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 124, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 130):
But, the only thing the "Republicans" want is Obama ousted.

You seem to be the only one touting that line.

Just an observation, it appears the executive branch of government is doing a pretty good job of throwing Obama under the bus. Obama probably going to have an investigation to try and figure out who is accountable and who should be responsible for that branch of government.  Wow!

Okie


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 125, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3056 times:

Today Pres. Obama asked for and received the resignation of acting IRS commissioner Steven Miller.

Acting director of IRS resigns amid furor over targeting of conservative groups



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 130):

The sequester doesn't need a fix. Come October there's a new budget and we will have saved billions in this fiscal year.

The sequester amounts to a six month pay freeze for Federal workers. How many of them actually took a pay cut? How about none?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 127, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3035 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 132):

Today Pres. Obama asked for and received the resignation of acting IRS commissioner Steven Miller.

Acting director of IRS resigns amid furor over targeting of conservative groups

from the link you posted:

Quote:
The administration also took the extraordinary step of releasing a letter from Treasury Secretary Jack Lew in which he demanded that Miller resign in order “to restore public trust and confidence in the IRS.”

This is not enough. Resign? Probably with pension / medical benefits, and with all his contacts will quickly find a very lucrative job on K Street or on a few corporate boards. This is no punishment, and he might not be the one most responsible anyway. He was only in office a few months and before that he was in a completely separate department.

No, this is a sop to the press to try to quiet things down, so that the administration can say disciplinary action was taken.

I call BS.

Give Miller back his job, for all I care - he had nothing to do with this. But I want to see some people put on trial. Abuse of federal power is a serious crime, especially at the IRS which has power over citizens that the FBI or CIA could only dream of in their darkest dreams.

No written federal policy is every changed by one man alone. Targeting groups for delays, persecution and inquisitions was one man's idea, and (at least) two or three fairly senior officials had to agree to it, at minimum.

I want to see at least three people put on trial for this. Anything less is unacceptable, if we are to believe in the impartiality and objectivity of federal employees.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 128, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 106):
The current commissioner is probably the one who is responsible. He was a deputy commissioner on enforcement and before that a director in charge of tax exempt organizations. My hunch is the guy that left (the evil Bush appointee) was too focused on retirement.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 134):
This is no punishment, and he might not be the one most responsible anyway. He was only in office a few months and before that he was in a completely separate department ... Give Miller back his job, for all I care - he had nothing to do with this.

::chuckle::

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 134):
But I want to see some people put on trial. Abuse of federal power is a serious crime, especially at the IRS which has power over citizens that the FBI or CIA could only dream of in their darkest dreams.

Settle down. Rome wasn't built in a day.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 129, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3023 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 135):
Settle down. Rome wasn't built in a day.

With this administration, if we "settle down", this affair will be quickly and quietly buried.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 130, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week ago) and read 3011 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 136):
With this administration, if we "settle down", this affair will be quickly and quietly buried.

Same strategy tried 20 years ago with Clinton and Whitewater. Try to create enough distractions to where you think he won't be able to govern while he's tied up with accusations.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 131, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week ago) and read 2994 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 136):
With this administration, if we "settle down", this affair will be quickly and quietly buried.

Well you are too late.
Exactly why Obama took the steps to have Holder have an "investigation" of an investigation of that found the IRS in a criminal position.
Absolutely nothing can be commented on or any evidence released until after the investigation by Holder.
That is going to take well past the 2014 election cycle.

Above all Obama did not want any of the civil suits, which appears to be more than a few hundred maybe over a thousand to be filed considering the massive number of people harmed and the amount of corruption involved involving the amount of personal information that was given for gain. The reason being that the herd/gaggle of lawyers would have access to inter office email's, memo's and the people involved which would lead to the people who are in violation of criminal laws. Right now considering the quantity of information that was given to other groups, the stalling techniques used by the IRS on the 501c4's we are probably talking maybe a hundred maybe more directly involved at the IRS.
I would watch for some large volume of early/medical retirements for some clues.

Okie


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 132, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 134):
Targeting groups for delays, persecution and inquisitions was one man's idea, and (at least) two or three fairly senior officials had to agree to it, at minimum.

Why didn't we hear this type of outrage when NAACP and Greenpeace were targeted?

http://www.salon.com/2013/05/14/when_the_irs_targeted_liberals/

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 133):
The sequester doesn't need a fix. Come October there's a new budget and we will have saved billions in this fiscal year.

So, you are okay with Congress not doing a damn thing? There are plenty of things that need to be fixed in this country. But, the right insists that the only thing we need to deal with is investigations into what Obama knew and what he did. Never mind the budget. Never mind the lax security overseas. Never mind waste, fraud, and abuse in the medical system. None of that matters. Just oust Obama.

Quoting okie (Reply 131):
You seem to be the only one touting that line.

Like all the right-wingers comparing any non-scandal happening now to Watergate?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 133, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 139):
Why didn't we hear this type of outrage when NAACP and Greenpeace were targeted?

As far as I can tell, those were specific audits, and had nothing to do with a written, blanket policy to treat organizations significantly worse based on their political position, as happened over the past 3 years. If you have any evidence that these audits were part of something more vast, let us know.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 139):
So, you are okay with Congress not doing a damn thing?

Go back to Civics class. The House passed budgets. The Senate blocked all consideration, most likely by request of the White House who A) did not want to see the post-recession budget slashed, and B) did not to take the heat from vetoing a budget.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 139):
non-scandal happening now



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 134, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 140):
If you have any evidence that these audits were part of something more vast, let us know.

A right-wing president in the White House and the IRS (director appointed by a right-winger) audited them. Compare that to: a left-wing president in the White House and the IRS (director appointed by a right-winger) reviewed and approved applications.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 140):
The Senate blocked all consideration

Well, not exactly. The House budget was not brought to the floor of the Senate. But, keep in mind the Senate budget was not brought to the floor of the House. It was killed by right-wingers. But, don't worry about that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 140):
most likely by request of the White House

Proof?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 139):
So, you are okay with Congress not doing a damn thing?

Absolutely, positively, yes. The country doesn't need "fixing" by the government. If you are going to depend on the government to "fix" things, then you will have to come to terms with the reality that everything will always be broken because government has never once "fixed" anything.


User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 136, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

In reference to IRS acting director Steve Miller's resignation, it is my understanding that his term was up to expire within 40 or 60 days anyway. Big deal. Makes it look like somebody is being thrown under the bus for at least partial appeasment of the multitudes as per Dreadnought's suggestion (Rep 134).

Don Imus had a good (I think) comment on his broadcast this AM. He said (paraphrasing) that the very LAST thing anyone in government considers is actually telling the TRUTH. I agree. best regards...jackl



all best; jack
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 137, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

What I don't get is: the right is trying to pin all this on Obama but Obama is just as angry about this as the right. He is on your side but you still hate him. WTF??? You hate the president so much that even when he is on your side, you don't accept it?

And you accuse him of being hyper-partisan?

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 142):
Absolutely, positively, yes. The country doesn't need "fixing" by the government.

So, it's okay there is no budget? It's okay the only thing about the sequester that was fixed was ATC so Congress could get home? It's okay that many positions in government are sitting vacant because Senate Republicans refuse to take up confirmation hearings? That's all okay with you?

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 143):
Don Imus

If the left is not allowed to quote what few hosts we have, you on the right are not, either. There have been plenty of times I have quoted Rachel Maddow or Norman Goldman or Thom Hartmann and have been blasted for it. But, Imus is towing the right-wing party line, so he gets a pass, just like all the others.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 138, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 139):
Like all the right-wingers comparing any non-scandal happening now to Watergate?

I repeat no one wants Obama out of office. The executive branch is the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving.

Okie


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 139, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 144):
What I don't get is: the right is trying to pin all this on Obama

Has anyone here (or anywhere) accused Obama of personally knowing anything about it? No.

But I would say that the actions of the so-far unnamed responsible persons were likely the result of the culture this administration has created. In business they call it "corporate culture" - I don't know what you'd call it in government. Most everyone working under a leadership has a pretty good idea of the kinds of actions that are permitted, welcomed, tolerated or encouraged - if not explicitly, through a wink and a smile and non-discouragement. To put it in terms that the perpetually-aggrieved on the left can understand, it’s like a boss tolerating a hostile workplace, not by actively harassing women himself, but by condoning that behavior by other employees, turning a blind eye to it, and subtly communicating through his own words and actions that all the EEOC signs and the rest aren’t really to be taken seriously.

Apart from this whole 501 mess with the IRS, the IRS has already been caught providing information about political enemies to Obama's campaign and its allies, of launching highly aggressive audits of political enemies which go far beyond the usual audit procedure (which is bad enough). Clearly there is a culture in place at the IRS that such things are OK. Try not to get caught, or you will get a slap on the wrist (and a nudge-nudge-wink-wink).

One more thing, that I want to make clear. Especially since recently we were talking about tax evasion in italy, where it is basically a national pastime - everyone does it. In the US, the VAST majority of people do not cheat on their tax returns. The IRS is supposed to carefully profile the returns and audit those which seem a bit "off-color", or doesn't jive with something known (winner of $100 million Powerball 2 years ago now reporting no income or assets). Should the IRS come to be seen as just a bunch of enforcers for whoever is in political power, the result would be an enormous loss of legitimacy for the tax system.

Our income-tax system is based on voluntary compliance and honest reporting by citizens. It couldn't possibly function if most people decided to cheat. Sure, the system is backed up by the dreaded IRS audit. But the threat is, while not exactly hollow, limited: The IRS can't audit more than a tiny fraction of taxpayers. If Americans started acting like Italians, the system would collapse.

One reason why Americans don't act like Italians is that they see the income-tax system as basically fair in execution. A tax audit or a tax-fraud prosecution is still seen, usually, as evidence that someone has done something wrong. If it comes instead to be seen as "just politics" then the moral component of the system will be gone. For the system to work, people have to believe that it is fundamentally fair. And that means that employees at the IRS who abuse their positions must be very publicly identified, shamed and punished, "pour decourager les autres", as they say. The non-partisanship and integrity of the IRS and its employees must be at least as high as at the FBI, or the Secret Service (if not greater).



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 140, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

Seb146; just a heads-up in reference to your Rep 146 about Don Imus. He has been a firm supporter (sometimes staunchly so) of President Obama since the president's FIRST election. Only during this triple (at least triple, I think) debacle has he come out with negativism in terms towards the president that I won't even use here on A.net.

So, before blanketly labeling "who" is left or right, best to do a l''il background. kind regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (1 year 3 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 144):
It's okay the only thing about the sequester that was fixed was ATC so Congress could get home?

Before you start saying its because Congress wanted to get around you should maybe figure out why the FAA was being forced to absorb so much of the DOT cuts. Put another way, the "general fund" component of the FAA budget is $2.9 billion (this is the money the FAA gets from taxpayers out of the general fund - funds that were subject to sequestration), the rest ($12 Billion) comes from users of the air transportation system (free and clear and not dependent on general fund revenue from taxpayers). The entire DOT budget is $74.5-billion. Total cuts to the DOT were $1.943 billion, of that $637-million was imposed on the FAA. So while the FAA is only responsible for 3.9% of the general fund needs of the DOT, they were being forced to absorb 34% of the total DOT cuts. The entire purpose of the FAA exercise was to create a crisis to drum up support for tax hikes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Fortunately, the airlines threatened to sue, the DOT got scared and opted to use trust fund money to cover the FAA. What's even more amusing is that the FAA wasn't allowed to touch half a billion in the FAA budget allocated for overtime to cover furloughs. So really, the FAA budget was about $137 million short of what it actually needed even with the politically driven cuts that were being placed on them.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 144):
It's okay that many positions in government are sitting vacant because Senate Republicans refuse to take up confirmation hearings? That's all okay with you?

Are you asserting the country is in some sort of crisis because of a few vacancies? Gimmie a break.

[Edited 2013-05-16 12:42:04]

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 142, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 141):
Are you asserting the country is in some sort of crisis because of a few vacancies?

Consumer Protection Agency has vacancies and can not enforce actions. Circuit courts are sitting vacant. The right just loves this. They can, then, point to the back-log and say "SEE??? Obama is so incompetent! He has not filled these positions!!" Even though we all know it is the Senate who needs to confirm those appointees. Since the right will filibuster anything they don't bring up, those seats will sit vacant.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 140):
Don Imus. He has been a firm supporter (sometimes staunchly so) of President Obama since the president's FIRST election.

Ummmm... no... But, thanks for playing.

If anyone ever listened to any "left" leaning talkers, they have criticized Obama, too. Imus? He is a nut, to begin with. But, he is right-wing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 139):
Has anyone here (or anywhere) accused Obama of personally knowing anything about it? No.

I have heard so many right-wingers from the House and from all over the right-wing talk circuit saying this. Just keep you head in the sand, though.

Quoting okie (Reply 138):
I repeat no one wants Obama out of office. The executive branch is the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving.

Like how?

Hold on... let me get a beer... This ought to be good....



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 143, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):
Consumer Protection Agency has vacancies and can not enforce actions.

Seeing as this agency and the Dodd-Frank law are by far the two most frightening regulatory actions facing businesses today, the economy is thankful.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):
They can, then, point to the back-log and say "SEE??? Obama is so incompetent! He has not filled these positions!!"

Really? Please, tell me where you're seeing that.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 139):
Has anyone here (or anywhere) accused Obama of personally knowing anything about it? No.

I have heard so many right-wingers from the House and from all over the right-wing talk circuit saying this. Just keep you head in the sand, though.

Then enlighten us, while don't you show us some of these clips from the talk shows, which you say are so prevalent, where "right-winger" congressmen are accusing Obama of being personally involved.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):
Hold on... let me get a beer... This ought to be good....

Believe me, I think we could ALL use a drink at this point.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 144, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):
I have heard so many right-wingers from the House and from all over the right-wing talk circuit saying this. Just keep you head in the sand, though.

He may not have personally known about it, but he does carry some responsibility. Read my post above, which I notice nobody has refuted.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 139):
But I would say that the actions of the so-far unnamed responsible persons were likely the result of the culture this administration has created. In business they call it "corporate culture" - I don't know what you'd call it in government. Most everyone working under a leadership has a pretty good idea of the kinds of actions that are permitted, welcomed, tolerated or encouraged - if not explicitly, through a wink and a smile and non-discouragement. To put it in terms that the perpetually-aggrieved on the left can understand, it’s like a boss tolerating a hostile workplace, not by actively harassing women himself, but by condoning that behavior by other employees, turning a blind eye to it, and subtly communicating through his own words and actions that all the EEOC signs and the rest aren’t really to be taken seriously.

Apart from this whole 501 mess with the IRS, the IRS has already been caught providing information about political enemies to Obama's campaign and its allies, of launching highly aggressive audits of political enemies which go far beyond the usual audit procedure (which is bad enough). Clearly there is a culture in place at the IRS that such things are OK. Try not to get caught, or you will get a slap on the wrist (and a nudge-nudge-wink-wink).



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 145, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2762 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 144):
Read my post above, which I notice nobody has refuted.

Because it's simply an opinion, the same one Sen. Rubio came out with, devoid of examples where Obama has personally directed this "culture of intimidation". If we are to believe Chris Matthews this week, Obama doesn't really much care about being president beyond the trips and handshaking, let alone being behind some massive conspiracy to intimidate. Give us some facts, and you'll probably find someone to pick up the bait to inspire another one of your partisan monologues.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 146, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 143):
while don't you show us some of these clips from the talk shows

Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., reacting to the claim that Miller was leaving anyway, said it seemed like he was a "perfect scapegoat" for the administration.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...ls-over-irs-scandal/#ixzz2TWMYgdzS

http://video.foxnews.com/v/238806926...p=related?playlist_id=928378949001
at :35 Rush gives his opinion, but the whole thing reeks of "It's Obama's fault." Even when Obama says he knew nothing about it, it is still his fault.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 143):
Really? Please, tell me where you're seeing that.

Read it again. I said that is what is going to happen. That will be the entire basis for the right-wing in 2014.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 143):
Seeing as this agency and the Dodd-Frank law are by far the two most frightening regulatory actions facing businesses today, the economy is thankful.

Oh, heavens! Let's not do anything to help the American people! Let's just let banks and business do whatever they want! Because that worked so well in 2008....



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 147, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 145):
Because it's simply an opinion, the same one Sen. Rubio came out with, devoid of examples where Obama has personally directed this "culture of intimidation".

Wow, someone missed the point... I shall illustrate with something else flying right over your head...



Focus.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 148, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 147):
Wow, someone missed the point.

I got the point, nice photo to illustrate where your deflection is going, even though crash and burn would have been more appropriate.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 149, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2733 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 149):
Read what people are saying, read what you are saying

Again, I've read it, along with your history of lying on this board, and now your memes straight out of kindergarten art class. That doesn't counter my post above which states that the reason why no one has refuted your earlier claim is because it is nothing other than a statement of opinion. You've provided nothing to base this supposed culture of intimidation on which you claim comes directly from the president.

For your reference, this is what my post was commenting upon, which you'd quoted yourself (I'll keep it short for screen real estate courtesy):

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 139):
But I would say that the actions of the so-far unnamed responsible persons were likely the result of the culture this administration has created. In business they call it "corporate culture" - I don't know what you'd call it in government.

You can dance around the issue all day, and create insanely bizarre graphics, but until you pin an act on someone, there's nothing in an opinion to debate or refute.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2695 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):

Consumer protection has vacancies? What ever will we do without consumer protection? Backlogs in the court? You speak as if this is new.

Last years budget was $2.5 trillion. This years budget is $2.9 trillion. The sequester cuts are $85 billion. This still leaves a budget of more than $2.8 Trillion. Sequestration worries = Chicken Little. Nothing more, nothing less.



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 145):

He is a Chicago politician. Chicago politics eat, sleep and crap intimidation. It's a way of life for them and Obama is no different.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 132):

Like all the right-wingers comparing any non-scandal happening now to Watergate?

Dude, even Obamas propaganda network MSNBC has lost that loving feeling over this.

[Edited 2013-05-17 05:16:05]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 151, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2689 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 149):
Again, I've read it, along with your history of lying on this board

Please explain where I lied. Precise examples please.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 149):
You've provided nothing to base this supposed culture of intimidation on which you claim comes directly from the president.

It's a corporate culture thing. Let's see, how about Fast & Furious, Solyndra, Pigford, Fisker, New Black Panthers, ACORN, SIGA, Benghazi, Dealershipgate, Blago, Tony Rezko, to start with, examples of how the President ensures favors and government contracts to his buddies, and when caught, obfuscates and lies about it (and I have to say he is extremely good at it - makes Nixon look like a complete amateur).

Might want to add (although it's much more recent) that Sarah Hall Ingram, former commissioner of the office responsible for tax-exempt organizations from 2009 to 2012, the division that started this whole mess, and it sounds like she was neck-deep in the affair), is being promoted to director of the IRS' Affordable Care Act division, responsible for Obamacare enforcement. She gets promoted, while IRS Commissioner Steven Miller (in office only a few months) and Ingram's replacement Joseph Grant (also new to the office) who had nothing to do with the events, are both fired and held up by the administration as disciplinary action for the scandal. It sounds like they got fired for having let the cat out of the bag more than anything else.

This administration has no problem using the system to their own advantage while bashing the opposition using federal powers, and then lying their asses off about it. Is it any surprise that employees at the IRS feel encouraged to act the same way?

Might also want to look into the National Treasury Employees Union, who represent IRS employees. They have a history in this that is looking quite interesting.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 152, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 151):
Please explain where I lied. Precise examples please.

Benghazi thread, 5/10/2013 15:10:32PDT. I'm sure you can find it in your e-mails of deleted posts. I've a PDF of the screen capture. It was originally reply #79 in the thread.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 151):
Let's see, how about Fast & Furious, Solyndra, Pigford, Fisker, New Black Panthers, ACORN, SIGA, Benghazi, Dealershipgate, Blago, Tony Rezko, to start with, examples of how the President ensures favors and government contracts to his buddies, and when caught, obfuscates and lies about it (and I have to say he is extremely good at it - makes Nixon look like a complete amateur).

Give us some examples of what the president did and quotes where he lied about it. Precise examples please. I'm more than happy to agree with you if you can link this all up. Don't know what your difficulty is in doing that if it's as true as you say it is.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
Reply 153, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 152):
Give us some examples of what the president did and quotes where he lied about it. Precise examples please.

I just did. You are telling me I have to write down here the millions of words that have been written about it here? get real.

You are obfuscating.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 152):
Benghazi thread, 5/10/2013 15:10:32PDT. I'm sure you can find it in your e-mails of deleted posts. I've a PDF of the screen capture. It was originally reply #79 in the thread.

That was not a lie, that was a mistake, for which I apologized publicly as soon as I realized what I had said was wrong.

If you can't distinguish between lies and mistakes I can't help you.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 154, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 153):
I just did. You are telling me I have to write down here the millions of words that have been written about it here? get real.

Just one example, Vasili. Just one.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 155, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 152):

Don't mind telling you... It's kinda creepy that you're saving PDFs of this forum. Kind of kills ones credibility because it moves a person from the realm of enthusiastic and often passionate Internet forum member straight to marginally disturbed.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 156, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 155):
Don't mind telling you... It's kinda creepy that you're saving PDFs of this forum.

Don't mind ya saying it. The search function of stored documents on my computer works much better than the a.net search, and sometimes I want to refer to something I've posted in the past for reference, especially if it contains a link I've had to research. If you find my keeping a copy of 1 or 2 out of 100 threads I post in as being creepy, have at it. I simply think it's more efficient. You might want to look at your own hard drive. Stored anything on it? Ooooh, creepy.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11571 posts, RR: 15
Reply 157, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 150):
Dude, even Obamas propaganda network MSNBC has lost that loving feeling over this.

Because it is not a scandal in any way connected to the White House. As much as the right tries and tries, there is simply no "there" there.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 150):
Consumer protection has vacancies? What ever will we do without consumer protection? Backlogs in the court? You speak as if this is new.

Why is the lame stream media (read: FOX, AM radio... the usual suspects) not mentioning it?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 151):
the President ensures favors and government contracts to his buddies, and when caught, obfuscates and lies about it

Huh.... Sounds like, I don't know, minimum, 30 of our last presidents and, minimum, 70% of anyone who has ever served in Congress. That's not really a right/left issue. That is the way of power.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 158, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 157):
Because it is not a scandal in any way connected to the White House.

Are you rewriting the Constitution? The IRS is the Executive Branch.

Okie


User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 159, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2628 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 158):
Are you rewriting the Constitution? The IRS is the Executive Branch.

Okie

If that is the extent of the link , it is tenuous at best, and not really worth mentioning. The real issue is the influx of applications that had to be dealt with, and the decisions made were poor. However that seems to be an IRS issue, not a white house issue.

In my job I have to prioritize issues, and issues that lack vital data I need to complete my task will be sent back for clarification unless the answer is incredibly obvious.

To wit, most of these groups created their own problems for a social exception by giving themselves political names and causes. The first thing many of those processing the reports will see is the name.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinerightrudder From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 160, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

At it's least, the government has become too big and too expensive to manage. It is a classic example of one hand not knowing what the other is doing.


"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 161, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 160):
At it's least, the government has become too big and too expensive to manage. It is a classic example of one hand not knowing what the other is doing.

The argument against that is that the agency that was supposed to be executing he rules of the law, were not following the letter of the law due to not having enough resources to handle a surge in applications to process. Some would argue we need more resources there. Others will argue that we need less laws. Some would argue that their should be no tax exemptions and eliminate the need for these workers. Others will argue that they should all be exempted and eliminate these workers.

It is all about lobbying. However I don' think , with the growing population and growing complexity of spending money and taxes that their will ever be a need to get rid of the IRS.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.