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Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8873 posts, RR: 10
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...th-warren-student-loans-91079.html



I think this is a good idea, she is correct. If we can float the big banks, why cannot we help the students of this country? This is so typical, give it to the big guys, screw everybody else. The price of education is absurd in this country for the middleclass. My niece is starting in the Fall, she has top, top grades, she is receiving a big discount because of student aid at a Boston School. When I heard the figures for her loan, I was shocked. It is mind boggling to me. How the hell she will pay it back is beyond me.

[Edited 2013-05-11 18:27:56]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
159 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

I also agree with Sen. Warren's statement. Why should those responsible for almost crashing the economy (and saved by the government) get loans at comfortable rates and make billions in profits while a student, with the potential of becoming the next Einstein of a particular field, get higher rates?

To me, it sounds like the system actually punishes those who want to succeed while rewarding those who make risky decisions.

Not only students, but Average Joe should also be able to get a loan at a comfortable rate as well.

I've taken only 3 loans totaling up to $7k so I'm not in a dire position where debt will be unmanageable, but I do think about many others who may take up 3 times that amount to finish perhaps just one academic year. Is the system fair then?

[Edited 2013-05-11 19:42:44]


"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3356 times:

Keep in mind that high student debt hurts the economy because graduates stuck with today's lower salaries aren't going to be purchasing as much if they have loans to pay off. They're not going to be buying homes, they're not going to be buying cars, they're not going to be taking the risk of getting more loans to start a business. None of that is good for the economy.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

I'm all for better student loans, lower rates and more of a grace period. Not an economics expert, but student loans seem like a very good investment. It's not a way for the government to make money but a way to give students a chance to go to college and get a good education.

Never had to get loans, but I'm surprised at some of the rates my friends are paying for them. Very high



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19575 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

I don't even know why this is a debate. I honestly do not know what justification there is for not lowering student loan rates.

The only justifications I can come up with are so cynical, I'm afraid to voice them.


User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8134 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Maybe they are trying to deincentivize going to college in lieu of the burgeoning manufacturing jobs that will return once the CIA has successfully completed Chinese economic sabotage.   


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2314 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 5):
Maybe they are trying to deincentivize going to college...
The world needs ditch diggers too...

 Wow!



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 5):
Maybe they are trying to deincentivize going to college

I know you are being sarcastic, but I think it is important to promote alternatives to college (not by jacking up student loan rates or anything.) You can lead an extremely successful life without going to college and college just isn't for everyone. I'd like to see trade schools and other programs promoted more



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8838 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Not an economics expert, but student loans seem like a very good investment.

Well, I am an Economics expert (such as they exist, I have degrees in the subject and I work in the field). And the flood of money into the system via student loans is the greatest factor responsible for the sky-rising costs of tuition and everything involved with going to college.

When I was a student, very few people got student loans. If you came from a poor family who could not help pay for school, you worked towards getting some sort of scholarship - there were quite a lot of them around. If you were a diligent student, you would go to school. Athletic scholarships were pretty rare - academic scholarships were the norm. There were a huge number of them. My grandmother established such a scholarship years ago specifically for good students from poor families from around the town she grew up in - and there were hundreds of thousands of such scholarships.

The scholarship fund (for which I am one of the administrators) used to offer full 4-year scholarships for two new students every year, and we got about 50 applications per year (most of whom obviously applied to many scholarships). Now we only get a ten or twelve per year - students aren't bothering with the scholarship route, they go the easy route of student loans, since they aren't means-tested anymore, and "federally guaranteed".

If this sounds suspiciously like sub-prime loans, that's exactly what it is like. And just like the sub-prime loans and the explosion of cheap-money mortgages caused the prices of homes to climb to record heights (before they crashed), the same thing is happening with college tuitions. Make more money available, the price goes up.

Imagine what would happen if the Federal government announced that it was getting out of the student loan business completely, shutting down sallie mae. I'd bet that (after a lot of screaming), college tuitions would drop by 50%, maybe more, in a matter of months, as Universities try to fill empty seats. Of course cuts would have to be made in some of the more extravagant expenditures universities have gotten used to, like fancy new stadiums.

[Edited 2013-05-11 22:34:22]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17444 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
If this sounds suspiciously like sub-prime loans, that's exactly what it is like.

   That was my first thought. Isn't student loan debt already unmaneageable and growing?

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
The price of education is absurd in this country for the middleclass.

I think part (most?) of the problem is there is so much money, including loans, aid, and scholarships, chasing a relatively inelastic supply of school desks. If anything, perhaps schools should have access to lower interest to increase capacity--that will go a lot farther to reducing costs than giving students more money to chase a slowly growing supply of spots.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
If we can float the big banks, why cannot we help the students of this country?

I understand the frustration with banks but this is just a cheap soundbite that doesn't take into account the consequences of boosting demand for education without doing much for the supply side--schools will just raise prices faster and fill the same number of spots.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
I'd bet that (after a lot of screaming), college tuitions would drop by 50%, maybe more, in a matter of months, as Universities try to fill empty seats.

Maybe...or maybe some staff might be cut as well while keeping the tuition at the same level. I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17444 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Maybe...or maybe some staff might be cut as well while keeping the tuition at the same level. I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.

I don't think they'd have a choice, plus the high end universities are keenly aware of the disconnect between the quality of their education (it ain't THAT good) and the price. As any economist will tell you, a $2000 state university education might be 2x as good as a $1000 community college education, but a $60,000 Ivy League education isn't 60x as good as your local community college. Tuition is completely out of whack and I think it has to do with so much money chasing so few seats. I think there will some major changes forthcoming in the industry as a) people realize they're not getting what they pay for (and can't afford ultimately) and b) a lot of education content moves online, on-job, and starts to eliminate some of the less-than-necessary requirements--ie did I really neec to take that West African literature course if I'm an engineering major?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Imagine what would happen if the Federal government announced that it was getting out of the student loan business completely, shutting down sallie mae. I'd bet that (after a lot of screaming), college tuitions would drop by 50%, maybe more, in a matter of months, as Universities try to fill empty seats. Of course cuts would have to be made in some of the more extravagant expenditures universities have gotten used to, like fancy new stadiums.

   Universities are building ridiculous new facilities that have nothing to do with educaiton to woo students, because they can pay, regardless of the source or whether they'll ever pay back that source over their lifetime.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I think this is a good idea, she is correct.

Education is one of the relatively few things government should actually help fund to a significant degree. That's how you wean people off welfare. Give them the chance at education and don't subsidize the inability or unwillingness to take the opportunity.

That said, her idea seems awfully arbitrary. There are plenty of reasons why student loans should not be treated like Federal Reserve loans to large banks.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Well, I am an Economics expert (such as they exist, I have degrees in the subject and I work in the field).

The primary difference between an economist and a fortune teller is the office.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
If this sounds suspiciously like sub-prime loans, that's exactly what it is like. And just like the sub-prime loans and the explosion of cheap-money mortgages caused the prices of homes to climb to record heights (before they crashed), the same thing is happening with college tuitions. Make more money available, the price goes up.

The cost goes up because people are willing to pay it, and people are willing to pay it because they don't really have to pay it and can finance it instead.

And there is even more societal pressure to go to college than there is to own a house, which doesn't help. People feel they need a college degree, and employers will demand it even if it's totally unnecessary simply because they can.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.

I want to say that at least one (Harvard?) actually has policies in place that forbid their students to take on debt. It will be paid for out of pocket in combination with student aid packages. I doubt the big name schools would be affected too much by changes in government loan policies as they all have large endowments.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17444 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
People feel they need a college degree, and employers will demand it even if it's totally unnecessary simply because they can.

I think that's starting to change slowly but surely. I've definitely seen a lot of managers that once upon a time would require an MBA regardless start to question why they do so, never mind that the premium companies pay for it is almost never worth it. Furthermore I know several airlines that would recruit at Ivy Leagues for relatively rote positions, that are starting to shift to more reasonable schools for any number of reasons. As I mentioned I really think we're on the cusp of people really starting to question the value of the education they're paying for, both as students and as employers.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2062 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):

Keep in mind that high student debt hurts the economy because graduates stuck with today's lower salaries aren't going to be purchasing as much if they have loans to pay off. They're not going to be buying homes, they're not going to be buying cars, they're not going to be taking the risk of getting more loans to start a business. None of that is good for the economy.

You realise that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever don't you? It only hurts the future economy, but that is the same with all debt, including (particularly!) government debt. All you're doing is bringing future consumption forwards, the idea hopefully is that by bringing the consumption of education to today rather than consumption of cars tomorrow, you'll be able to earn a return on that investment/consumption in the future to allow you to still consume cars in the future. Naturally you earn no return when you do a worthless liberal arts degree, that becomes just deadweight loss. No better or worse than a company that goes bankrupt.

The interest those individuals pay is for a return for past investment of the people giving them the loan who will now consume or reinvest that interest (good for the economy) along with the former students consumption in the form of the interest spread which goes to bank as a service rendered.

Debt is only bad if the return you're getting for consuming in the past rather than the present is lower than the costs of incurring that debt. That happens to be the case for many individuals today, that is not the government's fault that individuals took on debt that did not offer enough of a benefit to cover the costs.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
And just like the sub-prime loans and the explosion of cheap-money mortgages caused the prices of homes to climb to record heights (before they crashed), the same thing is happening with college tuitions.

Just like the sub-prime mortgages and a house, the culture is reinforcing the notion that a college education is an absolute must have to the complete ignorance of the degree's value relative to price. This is only delaying the bubble and making the crash even worse.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
If we can float the big banks, why cannot we help the students of this country? This is so typical, give it to the big guys, screw everybody else. The price of education is absurd in this country for the middleclass

I agree that the price of education in this country is absurd, but the federal student loan policy is part of the problem and enables schools to keep raising prices.

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):

Keep in mind that high student debt hurts the economy because graduates stuck with today's lower salaries aren't going to be purchasing as much if they have loans to pay o

Yep. There's going to be a drag effect for quite some time because of structural shifts in the economy as increases in tuition have outpaced both inflation and average salary earned by college graduates. So students are not only have more debt (nominally) they will also be repaying that debt for a longer period of time because of lower salaries.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
It's not a way for the government to make money but a way to give students a chance to go to college and get a good education.

That's fine, but college isn't exactly the right choice for everybody. In some cases, it might be financially better to learn a trade. Being a plumber or electrician might be less prestigious than having a college degree, but it also means less debt, and financial stability.

I'm fine with the government providing some sort of financial support to enable students to attend college and acquire a higher education, but the current policy is just way too lenient. Student loans for higher education (not just college--think professional and graduate school as well) are too easy to obtain, and a whole cottage industry of for-profit educational institutions have sprouted up to take advantage of this free money provide by the federal government. The problem is that this policy in some ways hurts the same people it is designed to help--look at the number of students who are now burdened with debt who drop out before receiving their degree, or even after receiving their degree, wind up in jobs where they have no hope of ever repaying the debt. Meanwhile, the higher education administrators at these universities have
no incentive to reform or make their educational offerings more cost effective because they are getting their money up-front from the federal government.

Though the federal government currently makes a profit on student loans doesn't mean that it is always going to--student loan default rates are going to increase, but it will be a delayed effect since final maturity doesn't occur until 30 years or so (and then it's wiped out, but you still have to pay taxes on it).

Just because you can go to college (or pursue that additional graduate degree) doesn't mean that you should.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
And the flood of money into the system via student loans is the greatest factor responsible for the sky-rising costs of tuition and everything involved with going to college.

Not just college. Professional school and graduate school as well.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Make more money available, the price goes up.

See law schools, whose current crisis re student debt is seen as a bellwether for the rest of higher education. It is worth checking out "Failing Law Schools" by Brian Tamanaha.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
I'd bet that (after a lot of screaming), college tuitions would drop by 50%, maybe more, in a matter of months, as Universities try to fill empty seats

Law schools are facing a problem similar to that right now. Students have wised up and realized that the cost-benefit analysis of attending law school isn't worth it anymore given how poor the job market is for JDs. The problem is the administrative bloat at many of these schools that prohibits them from effectively rationalizing their costs (since their current cost model was based on the boom years of the 2000s) while tuition revenues are steadily decreasing. A temporary alternative is to increase overseas student recruitment.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.

Tuition has nothing to do with prestige at the elite schools--elite schools get their reputation for their academic strength, not cost of tuition. If cost of tuition was a factor re prestige, than George Washington University (most expensive tuition in the nation) would be seen as an elite academic institution on par with the Ivies, Stanford, Cal Tech, MIT, Duke, et. al--but it's not.

In fact, many of the elite schools are doing the exact opposite--trying to make it more affordable for students from lower income families to attend, not by reducing sticker price, but by trying to minimize the amount of undergraduate debt that students take on.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
I want to say that at least one (Harvard?) actually has policies in place that forbid their students to take on debt.

Not exactly--but a handful of schools, like Harvard, Yale, Princeton (and I believe Stanford as well) have changed their policies so that all financial aid handed out by the school itself directly to the students is in the form of grants, not loans.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

On the surface, this looks like a good idea, but, I like others understand that the increase in tuitions can be traced, in part, back to the availability of loans and grants and scholarships. When a school (or any other business, for that matter (see the discussion on medical provider charges)), is guarenteed money, why not raise prices?

Do we hold the schools accountable for their graduation rates? I guess some parents do when they make a choice as to where they send their kids. But, does the government, who underwrites these loans and many grants and scholarship, do they really look hard at schools and see if they're serving the communities they purport to serve?

Look, I'm probably on of the few conservatives that would love to consider higher education as a "public good". In my opinion, the more educated a populace, the better off that society and economy are, as a whole. Those folks will tend to contribute more and consume (from the public dole) less. But, in reality, as soon as we decide that higher education should be free, the costs of said education will explode. The colleges and universities will see this as more free money and begin to "compete" for this free money. The free money comes in the form of students.

To attract more students, they will try to get the best looking campus, the best faculty, the best sports team, the best graduation rate, the best (fill in the blank). All this costs money, so they will raise the tuition they charge the government on a per student basis. It's just creates a vicious circle.

This happens now, but the market provides some restraint to the costs. If the government removes that market restraint by cheapening the cost of money or elimintaing it completely....

Without oppressive governmental control and oversight, I just don't see how costs would be controlled.

Lowering the interest rate, and make the money cheaper, is just a few steps removed from that.

As pointed out, you'll just create a new bubble.

How about we do this:

If you take student loans, your first year is at whatever the prevailing rate is. Second year, you lose some off the rate, assuming you maintain, say a 'B' average. Third year a bit more...and so on. This incentivizes the student to perform in class and provides them with some return for their performance.

Of course, we have to find a way to ensure that the school doesn't just inflate the grades in order to keep the student in school and continue to rake in that tuition.

Is the cost of money too high for students? Maybe. But, what will happen if we lower that cost? What happens anytime the government throws around free or cheap money? You just have to look at the mortgage crisis to answer that question.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Maybe...or maybe some staff might be cut as well while keeping the tuition at the same level. I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.


That's probably the best and most insightful indictment of higher education in this thread. Prestige over students.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3148 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
It only hurts the future economy, but that is the same with all debt, including (particularly!) government debt.

Debt on its own doesn't hurt the economy, debt that you can't pay off hurts the economy. If you go into debt in order to start up a business, but start turning a profit after a few years and make enough to pay back the loan plus interest and have lots left over, then the economy will be better off for it, since a business was created that otherwise wouldn't have been.

The problem is that while productivity has gone up and education requirements for even menial positions have climbed, salaries have been stagnant. So people need to spend money on the college education, but they're not being compensated accordingly so that they can pay off the loans. And since the government can't do anything about the compensation, something needs to be done about the loans.

The are, of course, lots of areas in which higher education funding could be improved. But reducing student loan interest rates is a big one.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
that is not the government's fault that individuals took on debt that did not offer enough of a benefit to cover the costs.

It may not be the government's fault, but it is the government's (and everyone else's) problem.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
But, in reality, as soon as we decide that higher education should be free, the costs of said education will explode.

I'm not so sure - I don't see the costs of education in other countries exploding, and college tends to be less expensive there than it is here.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3138 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
I'm not so sure - I don't see the costs of education in other countries exploding, and college tends to be less expensive there than it is here.

I'm fairly ignorant of higher education in other countries. Questions:

How are the educators' (teachers, administrators, etc.) salaries determined? Basically, are the salaries capped by the government?

Are the universities owned or controlled by the government?

Who owns the buildings and property?

How is tuition handled?

Who, if anyone is held accoutable to the schools' success?

The basic gist of what I'm getting at with my questions is: do the schools in Europe operate in a free market where the school is free to set policy, tuittion, fees and salaries or are those facets controlled, in whole or in part, by the various governments?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20552 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

While schools for required education are lacking funds, shouldn't we be directing money there, then letting the free market determine rates for college loans, you know, like people say about that other elective in life, cable TV.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
When I was a student, very few people got student loans.

When did you go to college? The cost of going to college has risen as a vastly higher rate than average consumer prices. I'm sure you know that though.

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/I...n_Articles/Education_Inflation.asp


When my parents went to school it was possible to work a relatively simple job (the sort college students typically work during the school year) and pay for school.

I barely was able to pay for my school which was relatively affordable (University of CA and Cal Poly SLO), but I worked full time each summer and as much as possible during the school year earning far more than minimum wage.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20552 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 20):
The cost of going to college has risen as a vastly higher rate than average consumer prices.

The greater point being made though is that all of this cheap money is being used by colleges to finance projects which don't necessarily have a direct effect upon higher learning. That's an argument I understand.

I'm positive it isn't this simple, but it appears that colleges and universities are saddling graduates with copious sums of debt to earn a degree, which may or may not be of use in the workplace, then not using the fiscal discipline one would expect with those funds.

I don't know a whole lot about financing a college education though, quite honestly, so I've an open mind about it, and willing to listen to pro and con arguments about Sen. Warren's proposal.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 20):
When did you go to college? The cost of going to college has risen as a vastly higher rate than average consumer prices. I'm sure you know that though


Ask yourself why that's happened. What has happened in the last 20 or 30 years? Money has become cheaper and more widely available. The same thing that happened in the mortgage bubble.

The schools (and I'm generalizing) have been able to increase their tuition rates at higher rates than the average consumer prices because the money they're receiving from the students is cheaper (to the students) and the schools, with the help of the government have been able to sell a four year college degree is essential to being successful in life.

Yes, the world needs ditch diggers, but it also needs plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics, etc. These are all fairly well paying jobs that do not require higher education.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1253 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
The basic gist of what I'm getting at with my questions is: do the schools in Europe operate in a free market where the school is free to set policy, tuittion, fees and salaries or are those facets controlled, in whole or in part, by the various governments?

I don't know about most other European countries that much, but around here Finland universities are entirely state owned and funded, there really aren't any significant tuition fees. Thus everybody with good enough abilities and motivation has same chances to get university level education no matter how much money they/their parents have. Overall this system seems to work very well, I'm glad we have it.

I think Sweden, Norway and Denmark have more or less similar system.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
I don't know about most other European countries that much, but around here Finland universities are entirely state owned and funded, there really aren't any significant tuition fees.

And the salaries?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
Overall this system seems to work very well, I'm glad we have it.

As I've said, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but quite simply, it goes completely against our economic system and our system of government.

I'm a firm believer that education should be considered a public good. That means government control of all the economic facets of the system: salaries, tuition rates, fees, properties, etc.

It would probably need a constitutional amendment. And, I really don't think I'm being melodramatic about it.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
25 DeltaMD90 : Yes I agree, I mentioned that in reply 7. I've made that point to a few people. Nothing wrong with not being smart enough or suited for college, they
26 pvjin : Hmm I guess they are more or less government regulated too, at least I doubt there's any significant difference between salaries in our different uni
27 BMI727 : To be fair, a lot of the crazy facilities being built are being built with donor money or by schools for which the sports actually are a major moneym
28 AeroWesty : Shouldn't the free market be allowed to reign? Higher education is fully elective.
29 fr8mech : I disagree. If we decide it's a public good, then we need to treat it as such. Just like the military, full control by the government, so that salari
30 Dreadnought : It has another set of features as well. - Unlike in America, where students are pushed by social pressures to "go to college, or be branded a failure
31 BMI727 : For practical purposes it isn't. Besides, it fits with the liberal desires for egalitarian society. I don't care who your parents are, if you show yo
32 Post contains links us330 : Great article looking at a case study of such behavior: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/fea...ty-fights-its-rich-kid-reputation/ Here's part of the
33 BMI727 : They are by far the worst offenders when it comes to bang for the buck. Small name, big price tag. I'd propose a system to work roughly like this: Fo
34 fr8mech : Not if we decide that higher education is a public good. What you seem to forget is that we are not allowing the free market to reign. The government
35 AeroWesty : Not my welfare. My family established a chair, or whatever it's called, at Cal Berkeley years ago for scholarships in a particular field of study. Ta
36 Dreadnought : Just because you have a degree or two does not make you well-educated. I've known people with Ivy League educations who were embarrassingly ignorant
37 Post contains links fr8mech : You missed the "functioning, contributing" part of my mini-rant. You need all three for a college education to have paid off in a macro-economic, at
38 Post contains links fr8mech : Well, the linking screwed everything up in the above post. For some reason the linking isn't working. It's screwing everything up. This is a timely ar
39 BMI727 : That's exactly the sort of ass backwards, collectivist, liberal thinking that needs to die a quick and painful death. School isn't for society, schoo
40 fr8mech : Yup, they have to be succesful for themselves. But, their success should lead to a succesful society, in the end. Neither did I, but in the end (at l
41 DeltaMD90 : Why should my tax dollars go to helping the student?* I fail to see why you're for government to stay out of almost everything except for education,
42 us330 : I'd be fine with a modified approach--do it for the kids/adults that have already taken on the debt, but be much more restrictive in how you apply th
43 BMI727 : That's where liberal thinking gets derailed: too much "We the People" and not enough "I the person." You want an affluent town? Find a couple thousan
44 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : You do realize that is actually the argument for welfare, the way it's supposed to be and not the right wing's vision of getting people dependent on
45 BMI727 : Not really. You don't throw money at poor people, throw opportunity at them. If they don't want to put in the work that's fine, but they shouldn't ex
46 DeltaMD90 : You don't have very much opportunity when you work two full time jobs and can hardly pay for food and bills. You don't have much opportunity when you
47 StuckInCA : I see that point buried in there, but it was buried under a pretty thick mound of "back in my day" self-righteousness and, in my opinion, ignorance.
48 aaron747 : Least of all that early Saturday morning home invasion robbery once he has achieved the lifestyle he is working toward.
49 BMI727 : People don't just magically end up that way. The number of people who as workers are genuinely useless doing anything more than being a warm body is
50 DeltaMD90 : Again, there are people like that, but there is a big chunk of underemployed people in this economy that are more than willing to work but let's face
51 BMI727 : The first one requires the government, and the rest of those items require the government to get out of the way. That's part of why you have school a
52 StuckInCA : I'm struggling to see what this has to do with this statement of mine: I agree that university should not, by default, be the option for everyone. I
53 BMI727 : Because nobody really cares how much a college education costs since they all feel it's a necessity and there are people willing to finance it. It do
54 flanker : Federal student loans are one of the biggest ponzi (lack of a better word atm) schemes ever created. Anyone who has them like myself knows this.[Edite
55 Dreadnought : What you don't seem to get is that you don't make something more accessible by throwing money at it. You might temporarily make it more affordable fo
56 WarRI1 : I could not agree more, as I said about my niece, very smart, top grades, but not wealthy. When she finish's school, even with a big assistance packa
57 Dreadnought : How many scholarship programs did she apply to? Just asking.
58 WarRI1 : In total, I really do not know. It was a fair number as far as I have been told. I know she has a great package from a very good school in Boston. Wh
59 Flighty : Susan warren is just spouting tired old rhtoric that dates back centuries. The money lenders are evil. The fact high risk people must pay higher rates
60 Flighty : Why would people attend college if the government provides everything for free? Regarding your niece, is she intersted in low-cost options such as co
61 pvjin : To get into jobs that have better salaries and better working environment than those with less education required perhaps? Nobody has to be hungry ar
62 MaverickM11 : I don't think it's an excuse--they don't call it the poverty trap for nothing. If a child doesn't have any positive support from family and friends,
63 flyguy89 : Not now certainly, as it stands currently, our deplorable public school system is in fact a major contributor to the poverty cycle. They do, all the
64 us330 : The simplest, easiest measure, IMHO, is to end federal student loans to private institutions, and only provide it to public institutions--and there a
65 fr8mech : I'm not talking about K-12. I know that federal government intervention there has been an abject failure. I'm just pointing out that we are under the
66 Post contains images Redd : I would answer what you did just below. Back when I still lived in Canada my girlfriend at the time had a tennis scholarship to FGCU, in the meantime
67 flyguy89 : Or better yet, just make tuition free at public universities. Between the endowments that these schools get as well as the grants from the federal an
68 Dreadnought : But we DID do it properly at one time. That's what State universities were there for. They were subsidized by the state to ensure that tuition (for i
69 BMI727 : Possibly. Of course cashing checks from the government isn't going to help that either. Either way people should take responsibility for themselves i
70 fr8mech : You know what? I don't care how it happens, so long as it happens. Understand, that I am a Conservative with very strong Libertarian tendencies. And
71 Post contains images flanker : I agree with you. It is absolutely disgusting that nobody wants to address the elephant in the room. Higher education costs so much because it can. T
72 flyguy89 : West Virginia actually did run several universities pretty much on their own until recent decades, WVU and Marshall University aren't/weren't bad sch
73 flanker : And I am sick of this shit about costs being too high for the middle class. I live near one of the best junior colleges in the nation and it is extrem
74 flanker : Tell that to SIUC , where just 3 years ago Illinois and the Feds owed them around $300 million in unpaid tuition.
75 us330 : Once you get beyond the top 25, private schools and public schools are pretty similar in rankings. Public schools are only expensive/comparable to pr
76 Redd : It's still not a great choice to have to make. A lot of money or a lot more money to get an essential service... Like I said before, children of rich
77 Flighty : OMG thank you. These students are ordering a Cadillac Escalade BA education + crying about the bill. Pretty much all it is. Other options are there f
78 bhill : While I applaud the folks in the Trades, I don't think the "average" trade worker can afford a home and raise a family on the wages that the trades of
79 flanker : That's where they get a job and pay for that. Nobody said it's going to be free and easy.. well apart from the politics being played.
80 BMI727 : I could get behind grants as long as there are strings attached. In my experience, most of the lazy students not interested in working were the rich
81 fr8mech : Does that mean that folks should not be in the "trades"? Should we take someone who is demonstrable unable to succeed in school yet is an exceptional
82 flyguy89 : I said 'usually', there are always exceptions, but see how most schools brag about the size of their endowment, this is actually what eventually drov
83 Redd : First off, education is not welfare and if you believe that you are in dire need of one yourself. Next, if you support corporate welfare over the wel
84 Redd : A person is going to school, a part time job is a great idea but the concentration should be on a persons studies. Affordable options, wow, we are ta
85 tugger : You are making a very poor argument. Buying a useless item, even with the fact that you at least have that item, is the same as "getting nothing", to
86 pvjin : In the end money spent on welfare results in a society with less social problems and healthier population. Tank on the other hand is mostly useless p
87 AeroWesty : Delightful deterrent, though. 24/7/365. Don't even have to gas one up. Just park 'em in a row where the satellites can view them.
88 BMI727 : I never said it was. Education actually pays off, welfare does not. If you're looking to curb spending and waste, look at entitlements. Did we abolis
89 Dreadnought : This has been a historic fact, and yes, a real problem. The only reason that the US is continuing to build and continuously improve Nuclear Subs (at
90 BMI727 : That's a different problem. Here you're talking about not forgetting how to build tanks, just the costs of having to shut down production and then re
91 flanker : That is untrue, facts given in my previous statements and others as well. Wrong on both counts there sir. Yes, education is affordable like many and
92 flyguy89 : Your education isn't degraded if you have to work while going to school. Yes affordable, there's nothing wrong with actually having to pay for higher
93 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.brown.edu/academics/grads...formation/international-applicants I worked on the campus of Brown University at different times in my past car
94 BMI727 : Not all of them go back home. The H-1B has been a secret weapon for America for a long time. There's nothing wrong with that. The idea of giving your
95 StuckInCA : I don't think we'll get answers and it may not even be reasonable to ask, but there are a relatively few vocal people on this thread. I genuinely wond
96 Post contains images Dreadnought : I don't know what you're getting at, but I'll bite. My parents were upper middle class. Went straight to University after High School. Parents helped
97 Post contains images tugger : ??? I understand, but again "saving money" does not mean to give it back. It can mean there is another use for it. I worked and had loans to make up
98 Redd : In your country it's a right for people with money. In Many countries around the world it is a right for every citizen. It is a right for all people
99 pvjin : It should be right for anybody with adequate motivation and abilities. Nobody should need to do multiple low paying jobs, take huge loans or fight fo
100 Post contains links AeroWesty : There was a long piece in the Sunday opinion section of the New York Times this week with a lot of facts and figures on financing higher education, if
101 Flighty : You are right. I overpaid. Just trying to help others avoid making the same mistake. There are cheap options out there -- use them. Article has lots
102 Post contains images tugger : You are quite wrong on that if you are implying that is is only for those privileged to have money or a rich family. Education costs money, that is n
103 Dreadnought : I see nothing in the article about putting a stop to the forces that push tuition up and up every year. All people talk about is , "oh those poor stu
104 fr8mech : Nope, in this country, if you want to go to school, you can go to school. You can go to junior colleges, community colleges, state colleges, private
105 WarRI1 : I think the system is self policing, all according to ones ability, but one should have an opportunity to succeed to their own level. This is being d
106 fr8mech : Have you read nothing? Without instituting cost and salary controls, the government paying for all the education would cause tuition costs to explode
107 Dreadnought : Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Cheap money from the Central Bank for a particular marketplace (housing, university tu
108 flanker : Absolutely on both counts. I am 27 and have one more semester to go. I can't begin to tell you the corruption in student loan deals. The fact hat a s
109 StuckInCA : At a serious cost. In first and probably even 2nd world countries we compete with, the only cost is that you are a good student. Do you not think tha
110 BMI727 : Because 70% marginal tax rates make me want to vomit, as they should any reasonable person. Who knows? Deep six welfare and entitlements, and maybe t
111 flanker : Like we said before you CAN go, take the loans out. Nobody is stopping you. ALSO nobody said it was going to be without cost. The other easy way for
112 flanker : PRO TIP OF THE DAY WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE NOT A DEPENDENT AND APPLY, YOU WILL GET 100% ASSISTANCE I believe this is at age 21 if I am not mistaken That is
113 flyguy89 : As pointed out ad nauseum, the avenues are plentiful for acquiring a college education if you're poor and have the grades. The problem I have is that
114 Post contains images BMI727 : I'm not sure it is an age, I think it's based on whether or not someone is a dependent. As far as I know, an 18 year old on their own isn't a depende
115 flanker : I am speaking in terms of *federal financial aid*. In their eyes, you are a dependent until 21 for * financial aid*. After that age you no longer nee
116 fr8mech : No, not a serious cost. Unless you want an Ivy League education or attend want to attend some private institution. There are options. Again, communit
117 Post contains links us330 : Well, at the very least the Federal Government is making money off the student loans--$50.6 billion in 2013, according to this article citing to the C
118 Ken777 : Because the banks make huge profits off of low economic level students. Actually, with the explosion of tuition costs the banks are also making huge
119 BMI727 : Loans that the government guarantees. No banker in his right mind would loan an 18 year old $80,000 to get a degree in social work where they might m
120 Post contains links fr8mech : I assume that you'll also agree that this should be the case in K-12, public and private? Of course the banks are making a profit. Why shouldn't they
121 us330 : Whales are old hat. If you are going to insult a bunch of people (which you do quite frequently), then I'd suggest updating the insult, or at least c
122 WarRI1 : Absolutely, not here, money and greed for it, distorts everything. Absolutely, a big problem for sure, but the system demands it. Who rigs the system
123 BMI727 : For each one of them, how many are working at Starbucks?
124 Ken777 : Remember the famous quote - "Follow the money"? Works the same at Universities - if the overpriced schools get black listed for research funding then
125 BMI727 : I don't care what the tuition is, if that's where the best researchers are that's where the money should go. There is no practical need to connect st
126 WarRI1 : Well said. We are all not born with the same abilities. We are not all born into wealth. The land of opportunity, is not functioning as well as it us
127 WarRI1 : There are some people who have a higher standard, and are willing to pay more so local, small merchants survive. I deal with Union made items wheneve
128 flyguy89 : Oh yeah, so I guess that's why "the system" at almost all the top schools in the country provide free tuition to any admitted students from poor to m
129 Post contains links BMI727 : This right here: http://images.art.com/images/products/large/11717000/11717699.jpg I'm willing to pay for quality when it matters to me. But often it
130 flanker : Um no it isn't. Unless you're in college or have been in college recently, I don't think you're qualified to talk about the "system" you keep railing
131 fr8mech : Ken, I do not expect equal outcomes. I expect consistent year over year improvement. I expect that teachers that can not teach be removed the classro
132 aa757first : This is totally untrue. The most reliable way to get money at my private, Catholic, somewhat prestigious but not elite undergrad university was need.
133 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.denverpost.com/nationworl...236/house-take-up-student-loan-fix Yes indeed, the Masters of deceit are at it again. Our beloved congressmen f
134 Post contains images WarRI1 : Nobody is gaming the system??? I beg to differ, everybody is gaming the system one way or another. That is how billion upon billion is spent in this
135 WarRI1 : He may have a high school education, but he is smart enough to have a job that pays well enough to afford the King Ranch. I know many higher educated
136 BMI727 : ...with the help of a labor cartel. And "smart" in this context might mean that he just shows up and doesn't get fired.
137 Ken777 : Agreed, but there are good reasons to direct research funding to universities that learn how to bring down the costs for students obtaining a degree.
138 flanker : Honestly the biggest rape comes at the book store, every semester.
139 Flighty : I believe it's possible to get cost of college education down to $5,000. Not just price; cost. Whoa whoa, BMI... If you know a lot of rich people, yo
140 BMI727 : The government ends up punishing itself. I don't care where the best researcher is for a given project or what their school might charge for tuition.
141 WarRI1 : That is highly unlikely. Who among us really believes that bull. There are slackers in every job, union, and non. Management and non. Educated and no
142 BMI727 : I never said there weren't slackers in every job. But the tendency of unions to emphasize seniority allows them to get raises and promotions not for
143 WarRI1 : No question, just like my daughter who is 46. Debt free. 4 year degree. Not so long ago this was possible. My friend you have a lot to learn about li
144 WarRI1 : Absolutely ridiculous. I have never in my working career ever seen anyone who got paid for just showing up. It goes against all reason. I have seen m
145 Boeing717200 : The cost of going to one of the hundreds of state colleges as a resident is completely affordable and anyone who goes to one would come out with a man
146 Ken777 : You are assuming that the next 50 or 100 researchers in line are incompetent of delivering results. That's not the case as there are competent people
147 BMI727 : You aren't looking for someone who can do it competently, you want the person who can do it the best. And yet there was surely some reason why those
148 Ken777 : And when it comes to research you often don't know where or who that person is. Two Pathologists in Perth received the Nobel Prize in Medicine for di
149 BMI727 : Then find the person whom you think can do the best job. And for the most part I don't care if they are foreign. We both know that generals are not c
150 Ken777 : Sometimes "doing the best job" doesn't mean finding the most brilliant researcher. Some years back a family member working in a hospital lab put in a
151 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/us...bill-setting-up-showdown.html?_r=0 Using the thread already posted on student loans, this is the latest proposa
152 Dreadnought : Then don't take the loans. Seriously, student loans have been shoved down our throats for 20 years, at ruinous cost, the destruction of many people's
153 Flighty : I agree with that. Same for medicine and the military. Federal funding makes things suddenly cost billlllllllllllions and billlllllllllioons of dolla
154 fr8mech : Then they shouldn't take the loan. No one is forcing them. Sorry, but have we learned nothing in this thread? Or from the mortgage crisis? Cheap mone
155 Ken777 : From the linked NY Times article: The banks aren't too unhappy with the Government setting basically free rates for them right now - why should we be
156 Post contains links Pellegrine : How about let's forgive outright a portion of student loans for disenfranchised graduates, low-income graduates, unemployed graduates. How about let's
157 Post contains links Dreadnought : This sort of thing is what should be taught in Civics or Social Studies classes, (Do they even teach Civics anymore?), along with the importance of s
158 fr8mech : No, it's a good way to keep people from getting into debt that they can't afford. Have you read anything else I wrote in this thread. I would be in f
159 Post contains links Ken777 : Obviously they are not banks - just look at how much was poured into the financial system to keep it from a total failure. Whereas banks are old &
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