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TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?  
User currently offlineTHrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2688 posts, RR: 10
Posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5349 times:

I'm sorry, but I just feel that I have to put this question up...my personal view is that no, it's not.

No missile was detected on the radar, there was evidence of background power harmonics on the CVR, no evidence of pitting, cratering, or hot gas-washing on the metal.

In contrast to this evidence, there is one person who suggested to me that a proximity detonation of a missile could have brought Flight 800 down, as it would have accounted for the absence of all the evidence one would expect from a direct hit of a missile. He also cites the many eyewitnesses who reported a missile. I want to hear what people on here think.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

If you think it is what the NTSB said it was why post the topic?

I did a large, tedious and interesting analysis of evidence report on TWA-800. I know so much about the accident now. Not just about the NTSB report I studied and dissected but also some of the biggest conspricacy theory reports. The investigation was a little shady but that is because they thought for a while this could have been a bomb. There were a few public comments which were odd. The biggest thing going for the conspricacy theory would be the eye witnesses saying there was a missle. Even with all that I am 99.8% sure TWA 800 occurred because of an explosion in a nearly empty center wing fuel tank. After studying so much about that flight it just makes too much sense what the NTSB says.

Also conspiracy theories these days would be so difficult to keep under wraps.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 497 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5274 times:

A number of eye witnesses claimed they saw a missile. The NTSB believes what they saw was after the explosion and after the front of the plane fell off. Burning fuel as the rest of the plane climbed uncontrollably could look like a missile. I'm sure the eye witnesses believe what they saw but I know first hand a marine layer can play tricks with your eyes. A bomb would have been far easier and far cheaper to pull off than a missile but neither ever really panned out. One could argue that the current NTSB theory is exactly that, a theory, not 100% unchallengable fact. It is a theory that works quite well when tested. There are some videos on youtube testing this with an old airliner center tank. They didn't need much voltage to catastrophically detonate.

User currently offlinegasman From New Zealand, joined Mar 2004, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

I know the sister of one of the eye-witnesses. This particular EW is young, of sound mind etc. and is utterly convinced of the fact she saw something resembling a missile trail rise from the surface of the ocean, disappear into the sky... and the explosion occurred AFTER.

But you'd have to concede that to keep such a conspiracy secret would be literally impossible. So a centre fuel tank explosion it is.

[Edited 2013-05-12 01:14:43]

User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4846 times:

I'll admit, right after it happened my reaction was of the - one eyebrow raised - type. The missile reports, the military sorties over the area, and so on. Then I started listening to the facts and it made more sense. Particularly the fact that Boeing has had similar events occur to other models in their line up.

Even if it was an accidental shoot down, as others have said already, somebody would have said something by now.

Center tank explosion.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4701 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 1):
Also conspiracy theories these days would be so difficult to keep under wraps.

I disagree

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 4):
Even if it was an accidental shoot down, as others have said already, somebody would have said something by now.

Not if only a few people know about it.... There were secrets from WWII that took 50 years to come out so a few people keeping their mouth shut isn't really a big deal.

People have said they know what really happened and they just get shut down by people who who say "look what the NTSB said" If some guy came around and said "I can tell you exactly what happened and I can prove it" there would still be a large number of people say he is lying because the government investigation says something different.

I am not a conspiracy believer in general. That being said the TWA 800 incident is the only conspiracy that I think makes any sense and I can see the government wanting to put the blame on anyone but themselves.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 497 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
There were secrets from WWII that took 50 years to come out

A very valid point but WW II was a multi year bloody affair. There are some things that happened then where people did indeed talk but it got drowned out and forgotten until much later. The one big secret that I can think of that was kept for almost 30 years was the cracking of the Enigma code. There were some hints here and there but mostly the people involved did indeed keep their mouths shut. Even after the secret was made public it was almost another 20 years before the Lorenz cipher work was released to the public. Lorenz used technology similar to what our Cold War enemies used so it had to stay classified until computer encryption took over. So long story short yes it is possible the secret could be kept but I have a feeling someone would have turned the whole thing over to wikileaks years ago if there was a cover up.


User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4534 times:

Did not the guy who stole the seat fabric went to jail, and he had evidence of explosive material, if it was a mid fuel tank explosion why all the trouble of sending Him to jail..

Just asking.

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4380 times:

747s do not just blow up.
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .
There was also reports of naval activity in the area prior to the downing.
IMO I think the Navy shot it down by accident and after realising their horrific mistake detonated the missile, but by that time it was too late as maximum damage had occurred.
Clinton administration would not want the world to know the Americans had caused a massive embarrassment upon themselves.
Oh and wasn't this around the time of re elections ?


User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 870 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting THrust (Thread starter):
In contrast to this evidence, there is one person who suggested to me that a proximity detonation of a missile could have brought Flight 800 down, as it would have accounted for the absence of all the evidence one would expect from a direct hit of a missile. He also cites the many eyewitnesses who reported a missile. I want to hear what people on here think.

As far as I know, most anti-aircraft missiles do not explode with a direct hit, but explode near the target, sending all sorts shrapnel into the target aircraft. For example, the current Sidewinder missile has around 200 titanium rods that break apart into thousands of pieces after the explosion. These holes would clearly show up on the skin of the recovered aircraft pieces.



Cha brro
User currently onlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2876 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4370 times:

This thread is going to get interesting, let me grab my popcorn....




"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 870 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4352 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 1):
Also conspiracy theories these days would be so difficult to keep under wraps.

Especially when you consider the amount of people involved in naval exercises. Someone would've come forward already to capitalize on the media coverage (and $$$) they would garner from breaking this story...



Cha brro
User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4238 times:

Didn't they put all the pieces together (as much as they could) and from the pictures I saw, it was quit extensive. I believe that would most certainly show whether the explosion was from the inside or outside. Also, as stated before, a missile would have left a telltale shadow.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7824 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):

There is a big difference in keeping a secret to further the public good and keeping a secret of an unethical horrific event you were a part of. That alone kills most conspiracy theories for me.


The problem I have with most conspiracy theories is that they are a house of cards based on assumptions. They take some evidence or observation and say "this could have happened." It is an assumption, and it may be a pretty probable assumption. For argument's sake, let's just say each assumption is actually 75% likely to be what the conspiracy theorist says it is.

So after the first assumption, they get another assumption and use those two assumptions as the base for the next assumption, which in turn is used for another assumption. 75%^4=32%, in other words, the odds for any of the assumptions happening is pretty great but the odds of all of the assumptions lining up is pretty slim. It gets to the point where I say "well yeah, I guess all those event could have happened, but that's so convoluted it makes 30 times more sense that there wasn't some huge government conspiracy/coverup/etc"


And on the missile thing... how many people know what missiles striking aircraft look like? How many know what an explosion separating the aircraft's nose or whatever looks like? Eye witness reports are terrible, even in groups. IIRC, I even saw a study on this where someone says they saw something and everyone else "reremembers" the event to include what that person said. I think it might have been this case but I'm not sure.

My opinion: nah, fuel explosion, next.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4051 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
There is a big difference in keeping a secret to further the public good and keeping a secret of an unethical horrific event you were a part of. That alone kills most conspiracy theories for me.


Exactly. The amount of money someone who actually knew the "real" story would make if they came out and told them would make someone come out already if there was anything to hide. Lets also keep in mind the people in this investigation. People want to say the NTSB is behind this. What a joke that is. The NTSB is a civilian organization. The investigators are not agents, they are not spies there is little to no secret information the NTSB has or uses. The NTSB wants everything they find out to be public and they are also the best accident investigators in the world. The last thing any NTSB investigator would do is keep a cause of an accident a secret. If the NTSB knew or thought it was a bomb or missile they would say it or at least one of the investigators would come out and say it.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
And on the missile thing... how many people know what missiles striking aircraft look like? How many know what an explosion separating the aircraft's nose or whatever looks like? Eye witness reports are terrible, even in groups. IIRC, I even saw a study on this where someone says they saw something and everyone else "reremembers" the event to include what that person said. I think it might have been this case but I'm not sure.


This is also a big point of my analysis. However, one thing I did suggest would be a good idea is for the FBI and CIA to make a new video of what happened with modern technology. The video they showed the eye witnesses was with mid 90s technology and many of the eye witnesses said what the CIA/FBI showed in the video is not what happened. They should have and I think they still should make a video with modern technology and show the eye witnesses now and see what they say. Probably too late now but I am sure many of those people did not forget what they saw.
One witness was a military helicopter pilot though.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 11):
Especially when you consider the amount of people involved in naval exercises. Someone would've come forward already to capitalize on the media coverage (and $$$) they would garner from breaking this story...


Certainly.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
Did not the guy who stole the seat fabric went to jail, and he had evidence of explosive material, if it was a mid fuel tank explosion why all the trouble of sending Him to jail..


He did not go to jail. He was a TWA Captain who was part of the investigation and he was given probation for stealing government property. The evidence at the time was government property. Now if this plane was shot down by the U.S. why in the world would they allow TWA Pilots to be part of the investigation.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1066 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3846 times:
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Something that bothered me about the explosion and downing of TWA Flight 800 is as follows and it is only my speculation from the time it happened. I am a retired aircraft mechanic and have worked on 747s. But this does NOT mean my thoughts from the time this happened are valid. The 747 has a hinged panel below the center fuel tank which is secured closed by three screws which can be removed and reinstalled with a speed handle with a philips screw bit. After the screws are removed there are three snap closed latches that hold the panel closed which is further secured by the three screws.
I have always wondered if someone could have opened the panel and attached a "bomb" to the structure above the panel and secured the panel. The bomb would have been triggered by a barometric , altitude sensor, which would start a timing mechanism after it reached preset altitude. It could of also had two timers, one which would delay the activation of the barometric sensor which would then start the second timer.
This aircraft had an originating flight that started in Athens, Greece which, I believe, may have had poor security, thus making it easier for someone to place the bomb above the previously mentioned panel. The aircraft, I think, made a stop in London and then flew on to New York in the US. It was scheduled to return to Europe, but took some type of delay while in New York.
I always thought that this possible "bomb" was installed on the aircraft in Athens and was designed to explode after it began it's return trip from New York over the Atlantic much further east of the United States so that the aircraft would fall further off the US shore and in much deeper water making it more difficult to recover. This bomb, if there was one, exploded shortly after take off due to the delay in New York.
As a point of note, there was a 747, if I am correct on the aircraft type, that had a bomb explode in the aft cargo compartment while at the gate in Japan. I do not remember the date other than it was earlier than TWA flight 800. It was believed that who ever planted the "bomb" wanted it to explode while the aircraft was flying over the Pacific Ocean.   


User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Have a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aer_Lingus_Flight_712

Time does not necessarily bring out the truth


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
I disagree

And you base this on...?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
People have said they know what really happened and they just get shut down by people who who say "look what the NTSB said"

They "said" they knew what really happened. Then why nut publish a paper, display their evidence, go to the media?

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
747s do not just blow up.

What an asinine comment. Plenty of aircraft have exploded at altitude for various reasons. And even if you don't believe the NTSB report, there is no denying that the theory put forward is plausible.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .

Every single eyewitness of something "streaking" has been timed to after the explosion, ie they were looking at the wreckage.

Do you claim "conspiracy" after every major aircraft accident, when hundreds of witnesses report seeing the aircraft in flames? No, because eyewitnesses - especially if they are far away, are unsure of what they are looking at, or are surprised are incredibly unreliable and like to remember what they think it would have been interesting to see.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
There was also reports of naval activity in the area prior to the downing.

Coincidental, and is the case with many crashes at sea - funnily enough, navies, being seafaring military arms, often have activity at sea.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
Clinton administration would not want the world to know the Americans had caused a massive embarrassment upon themselves.

Which would have set up the much greater "embarrassment" (not to mention the arrest of many officials, including the President) when the conspiracy was inevitably uncovered.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
Oh and wasn't this around the time of re elections ?

It was in the same year as an election, which happens once every 4 years. One in four is not exactly an impossible chance.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Bent metal does not lie. Particularly about the direction it was bent. The pieces tell an unmistakable story of an explosion originating in the fuel tank.

So, sorry, there was no missile. People can of course imagine all kinds of elaborate conspiracies, like having the NTSB fabricate evidence, or that the moon landing was faked. It is difficult to prove a negative, but what is the likelihood of pretty much everyone working in perfect synchrony to build a cover-up in any of these topics? None.


User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .

Why exactly would 150 people be watching an aircraft taking off in the dark? I just don't believe this.



Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7605 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .

You want us to believe there were 150 people outside after sunset watching an airplane fly at 13-15,000 ft seven or eight miles off shore.

That before the explosion, they saw something streaking toward the aircraft.

BS

What most of the people saw was the effects of the explosion with some debris gaining altitude due to momentum and the fall of debris.

We all know that eyewitnesses to aircraft crashes are wrong in their initial view of what happened the vast majority of the time. They fill in details from their expectations, not from their actual memory.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
IMO I think the Navy shot it down by accident

I can assure you, if a US Navy ship had fired a missile that night, dozens of people would have leaked the information quickly. People in uniform understand operational security, and BS security clamp downs. Coverups never work in the military.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
the guy who stole the seat fabric went to jail,
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
why all the trouble of sending Him to jail

Because he is a thief who stole evidence and ruined the chain of custody, making it impossible to determine what was exactly on the seat, and where it came from.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13168 posts, RR: 78
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
Not if only a few people know about it.... There were secrets from WWII that took 50 years to come out so a few people keeping their mouth shut isn't really a big deal.

Very few knew about Nixon and his staff approving and directing the breaking into offices of the Democratic Party in 1972.
Until they did.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):

747s do not just blow up.
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .
There was also reports of naval activity in the area prior to the downing.
IMO I think the Navy shot it down by accident and after realising their horrific mistake detonated the missile, but by that time it was too late as maximum damage had occurred.
Clinton administration would not want the world to know the Americans had caused a massive embarrassment upon themselves.
Oh and wasn't this around the time of re elections ?

Do yourself a favour, if you really think all that utter nonsense you just embarrassed yourself by posting.
If you actually believe any of it, then you'd best keep off any commercial aircraft.
If the NTSB has somehow faked the TWA 800 accident, what else has gone on with the safety of airliners?
You don't trust the aviation regulators, fine, stay on the ground.

Anyone who has been in the engineering part of the airline biz, knows just how much extra regulatory work has arisen since TWA 800, around the issue of fuel tank ignition especially on aging airliners.
So that's all been done just for fun has it?
All the other agencies, in all those other countries, with the involvement of other manufacturers not just Boeing?
No one says, 'this does not look right'?

There have been other fuel tank ignitions, not just in the air either.
No aircraft 747 or otherwise 'just blows up' might be true, there is always a reason, that you think yourself above the highly trained, highly qualified, dedicated to the safety of airliners people who found the must likely cause, is somehow invalid as they don't seem to have your 'a bloke down the pub told me....' type of 'analysis' is depressing but all too familiar.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6133 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3629 times:
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Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 15):
that had a bomb explode in the aft cargo compartment while at the gate in Japan. I do not remember the date other than it was earlier than TWA flight 800. It was believed that who ever planted the "bomb" wanted it to explode while the aircraft was flying over the Pacific Ocean.

That was baggage from a CP Air 747 that had just arrived at NRT. It went off inside the baggage distribution system and killed, I believe, two Japanese workers. It was part of the plot that brought down the Air India 747 off the Irish coast back in 1985

How many airliners have actually been blown up by a missile by mistake? I know that Italian DC-9 over the Mediterranean and a Tu-154 in some ex-Soviet republic. Are there any others?

As for the OP, no conspiracy, center tank explosion.



MGGS
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

I think the same people who were behind the Kennedy assassination brought down TWA800 

No, seriously, while the NTSB theory makes sense, the wholesale disregard of what so many eye witnesses said will always cast a shadow. Many might have been in error, sure, as eye witnesses often do interprete events wrongly. But still, it sounds odd to me that so many should be in doubt, and so few eyewitnesses do support the findings. If the US military did some rocket weapon exercise in that area that day, and that seems to be the case, and something went wrong, which might have happened, then they would have had plenty of reasons, and plenty of dollars to hide it. But, as others said, such thing cant he covered up forever. I tend to think the NTSB is right, for 84,59%.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7605 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3540 times:

Quoting na (Reply 23):
the wholesale disregard of what so many eye witnesses said will always cast a shadow.

They were not disregarded. They were questioned by the FBI, their storied examined, their timeline written down and compared. I don't think the FBI found a single person who said they actually saw something before the explosion and could accurately describe the event. Some of the eyewitnesses quoted by conspiracy theorists were over 25 miles away.

Almost all the eyewitness who can be verified to be in a position to actually have seen the explosion describe things arcing into the sky above the aircraft, and presume it to be a missile passing through the aircraft.

Quoting na (Reply 23):
If the US military did some rocket weapon exercise in that area that day, and that seems to be the case,

The US Navy was not doing any live rocket weapons exercises or testing that day. No missiles with motors were put on rails that day.

The area is used to test drill dummy weapons some times, but never live weapons. It is too close to air routes and populated areas.


25 Post contains links stratosphere : Yep and this one we shot it down and actually have never admitted doing it even though we paid off the Iranians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air
26 rfields5421 : The US Navy and the US government have not denied that the aircraft was shot down by the USS Vincennes. The question has always been why was the airc
27 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : As rfields5421 mentioned, I don't think I've met anyone in the military that would NOT say anything if something like this happened. I'm sure the mil
28 ANITIX87 : Funny. Here I was, thinking this site had smart people on it. I guess not....... TIS
29 bueb0g : Care to elaborate on exactly what that means? As there are people arguing on both sides here (although arguably more from the side of logic and evide
30 ANITIX87 : As is most of this discussion - nobody's going to change their mind about what they say happened. I don't care to elaborate because I'll offend half
31 GDB : In my time in the industry, there have been two major airliner accident events that have brought changes, in procedures, inspections, maintenance prog
32 damirc : Due to the general tone I really didn't felt like responding, but there has been enough half truths dished out that at least some need correcting. "I
33 sprout5199 : This makes no sense, as the missile is designed to explode to bring down an aircraft. In 1996, the smallest ship to carry SAMs was an FFG, which has
34 Redd : Simple, in this age never believe what governments tell u... It might have been the center fuel tank, 911 might be good and well saudi terrorists. Th
35 Post contains images PC12Fan : So much for your credibility. With all do respect to these members of the military, had they ever seen a live firing of this type?
36 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : And eye witnesses never see things incorrectly? The government is not some omnipotent force... it is made up of people, a TON of people. I am in the
37 Silver1SWA : This is what cracks me up about conspiracy theorists. They believe the government is some singular source of power running things like the "Men in Bl
38 Post contains links damirc : Considering at least Mr. Meyer spent some time in Vietnam and had SAMs fired at his helo there I would venture to say he did (probably not of this su
39 DeltaMD90 : I've got a ton to do in just a few short hours, but I'll try and take a look tomorrow. I've heard that part of the plane flared up a bit. IDK, look a
40 johnboy : As an aside to this topic, I have a close medical examiner friend who stated he worked this accident. Finding so many horrifically maimed (parts of) b
41 Redd : I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I just don't swallow everything I hear on the news. A good example is George Bush's excuse for invading Iraq, WMD's. A
42 777way : But why are you and others adamant to stuff your views and make them change theirs, they have a right to their theory however wrong it may be to you.
43 na : Fully agreed. Even in a marsian state like North Korea that would be difficult.
44 MD11Engineer : What panel are you talking about? The 747 has the three aircon packs right under the center tank, each with big, hinged access panels with quick acce
45 Post contains links rfields5421 : Why don't you link to the NTSB report of the witnesses? Rather than a bunch of conspiracy sites? Meyer is reported as a helo pilot, a C-130 pilot, a
46 Post contains links damirc : For the simple reason that the FBI only submitted to the NTSB only 448 witness reports as opposed to 670 witness reports that have been gathered by t
47 rfields5421 : Do a Google search on his name - you will see the identical quote listing him as a helo pilot, a C-130 pilot, a F-16 pilot. No. There is only one sou
48 Post contains links damirc : Whatever. What I've linked was signed affidavits attributable to people who were in the "observing seat" to speak. I have not linked any interpretati
49 flyingturtle : And there is something that cracks me up even more! My favourite conspiracy theory is that every conspiracy theory was created by a secret CIA PsyOps
50 DeltaMD90 : Trust me, I don't either. You'd be a fool too. I see too many people take that to the opposite extreme and believe nothing anyone with an ounce of au
51 flymia : I just don't buy the NTSB being part of this. Again these people are not agents or part of the CIA they are civilian federal employees. These are peop
52 damirc : From reading the report the NTSB did an excellent job, they went into very minute details in their investigation. It is certain that the center fuel
53 rfields5421 : No, you've linked to a bunch of 'documents' which would not be legal proof in any investigation or case. None that you have linked legally identify t
54 Post contains links damirc : They are sworn statements by eyewitnesses. Worthless then. Pardon me, but I will rather believe what is written there than various (still unsourced)
55 DeltaMD90 : What do you think happened then? I know it's probably annoying having me constantly bring up the boat, but do you think an entire crew would just lie
56 rfields5421 : We will never agree. I see a conspiracy. One by the owners of that web site and others to create a false impression of a cover-up. It makes them a lit
57 Post contains links damirc : Tough one. I think there's a fair chance that if it was indeed a shootdown that it was not a friendly fire incident as is "usually" explained. There
58 Post contains links and images damirc : Okay. Your right to do so I have been intentionally quiet when you described how much legal in fees it would be cost for a simple ANG Pilot to sue th
59 DeltaMD90 : Well I am on duty now so I just skimmed through your post. While I still disagree, I'm at least glad you are not pinning blame on a whole crew of sai
60 Post contains images damirc : As pointed out - this is where I am also lost. Ramzi Yousef was a guest of the government in 1996, and his trial was in progress (he was actually con
61 Post contains images Jyang772 : Ahem...
62 cptkrell : I wasn't even going to get involved in this conversation, but I must ask an amatuer question. If a missle, accidental friend or targeting foe, were re
63 flyingturtle : Yes, I think so that you'd find fragments of a larger missile. If you want to cover up using a large SAM, you would have to dredge the ocean floor be
64 soon7x7 : A sultry evening in July on Long Islands East End will have far more than 150 people by the waters edge on the South Shore of the Hampton's. You have
65 soon7x7 : Several access panels exist in the fairing area and are quickly and easily opened if you know how to operate a Hartwell latch...just PUSH.
66 soon7x7 : James Kallstrom hired local fishing boats out of Shinnecock Inlet to dredge the Ocean Bottom with specially manufactured nets. This after all the deb
67 cptkrell : soon7x7; Interesting about the fishing boats hired to dredge for debris, but you never stated the outcome. I'm assuming they found nothing (?) BTW, yo
68 Grisee08 : This is all I want to say. The NTSB may be a government agency, but there is no price tag on safety at the NTSB. They would not gain anything by cover
69 Post contains images flyingturtle : One can ask the "cui bono?" question. Whom does the whole stuff serve? Us. The passengers. The air crews. If TWA 800 had been shot down, you could no
70 LTBEWR : Conspiracies like as to TWA 800 in part are popular for a number of reasons. Many don't want to believe that some mechanical or human failure caused s
71 Post contains images soon7x7 : Last I heard was more dredging was planned for several more weeks and after what was called a "good catch"...further dredging was cancelled and that
72 damirc : Well, some searching netted me this ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNT7EQObFnA (Mr. Meyer speaking in front of the camera what he saw). Very good
73 flyingturtle : Zirconium alloy is used in atomic reactors, Barium is a fission product... what's their use in aviation, if there are any? David
74 soon7x7 : The only remotely close ingredients that you could peg as having any radioactive qualities on the 747 would be the Depleted Uranium flight control co
75 flyingturtle : Zirconium isn't radioactive. It is used because zircalloys are very corrosion resistant and do not easily capture neutrons That's why casings of nucl
76 Geezer : I'm not a big believer in conspiracy theories either; (except for the ones that have been PROVEN to be true, with PHYSICAL evidence ); (which this on
77 Post contains images flyingturtle : The deep trouble with witnesses is that they *always* try to make sense of the stuff they have seen. For good evidence, one needs to freeze somebody's
78 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Exactly, that is what I've been trying to say, although not very successfully. I'm not very eloquent with words. The most compelling evidence for the
79 Post contains images flyingturtle : That's very interesting! I hope you can turn up the specifics of that experiment. Something I suggest reading is "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel
80 DeltaMD90 : I tried searching but sadly UFO and all my other keywords get millions of unrelated hits. It was just a TV program anyway, so I'd value scientific st
81 soon7x7 : I just referred to any Exotic materials used in the 747 that otherwise may be found in other more critical industries like the Nuclear Industry but y
82 Post contains images damirc : Well. If you have object A travelling up, and object B travelling from right to left that certainly means that TWA 800 blew up and zoom climbed a cou
83 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yttria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yttria-stabilized_zirconia Thank you too! That's good. Because we all need to examine
84 soon7x7 : One has to know their limitations...sorting out that one is mine...Yttria...I'll take your word on that...thnx anyway...j
85 Geezer : You made a lot of very good points, and I'm not going to argue any of them, but you're a little off base with the above. There are a lot of misconcep
86 soon7x7 : I'm a true proponent of rote experience and or those that are closely related to subject matter under discussion. Obviously in your case you know muc
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