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Atheist Churches Thread #1  
User currently offlineHOmSaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1215 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Someone sent me the link to this article a few days ago, and I thought it might make for an interesting discussion here.

http://life.nationalpost.com/2013/03...ommunity-and-ritual-without-faith/

Interesting concept, but, it sounds kinda like non-alcoholic beer. I mean...what's really the point?

Thoughts?

(BTW, it's my hope that eventually this topic will be so popular that it will grow to more threads than the stupid "Word Game" threads).


I was raised by a cup of coffee.
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2012 times:

There are good reasons to go to church that have nothing to do with religion. For me when I go to church (which is about once a year) I enjoy it for the singing, the quiet time and the community aspect. However I don't care for the religious aspect. I still don't think I would want to go to church more than 1 or 2 times a year though; at both schools I went to we 'worshipped' at least 4 or 4 times a week - I've done enough praying for a lifetime.


Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

The desire for spiritual community has no inherent connection with superstition, dogma and ideology (which is what distinguishes religion from spirituality).

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1939 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

I'm an atheist...and I think this idea is utterly stupid (I wanted to use a more intelligent word than 'stupid', but it just fits so well).

I'm an atheist for two reasons: 1) I do not believe in an all-powerful 'creator', and; 2) I don't like the idea of organized religion. This "atheist church" of course lacks the element of a "God", but still maintains the organized religion aspect of one. Most of the problems created through religious conflict are a direct result of one organization of believers fighting another organization of believers. All this "atheist church" will do is create an entity by which the devout believers can combat, and I want no part of that.

Secondly, when you create an organization that is based upon a set of beliefs, there is little room for thinking outside of the box. You will typically find that most atheists (at least in my generation) are all for gay marriage...but I also happen to know atheists who are adamantly against gay marriage, not from a biblical suggestion, but on the premise that it doesn't make sense for the government to get into that business. So moving forward with that thought, since the point of a church is to bring like-minded individuals on a moral level together to pursue a common goal/lifestyle, where is the divide? Will we have breakaway sects of this church, a la Christianity, to cater to varied secular beliefs?

I, personally, will continue to live my life as a secular person, free of the moral suggestions of the group-think mentality that churches in every fashion tend to bring. I need an "atheist church" as much as I need Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. The whole point of atheism is the freedom to craft one's own idea of morality, and I think it has worked out pretty damn well for me.

With all that said, I wish them well. I appreciate that they are attempting to grow the idea of secularism in the community, and all in keeping with the idea of benevolence such like other churches, but I feel people are better off living by their own version of atheism.

One quote from the article I must laugh at though:

Quote:
“As someone who believes that God created us with this need for connection, I think that we find community in lots of different places,” he said. “I would say even atheists, who don’t admit there is a God, still have that imprint that God created in us in his image.”

Apparently we just won't "admit" there is a God.   



Flying refined.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
The desire for spiritual community has no inherent connection with superstition, dogma and ideology (which is what distinguishes religion from spirituality).

Absolutely. I found that out very quickly when I started going to AA meetings. I'm still atheist, but spiritual in certain ways.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 3):
Most of the problems created through religious conflict are a direct result of one organization of believers fighting another organization of believers. All this "atheist church" will do is create an entity by which the devout believers can combat, and I want no part of that.

While you're correct, it's not like our lives would be so much more peaceful if religion was gone. I'd bet all my assets that if religion had never existed, we'd just be fighting over something else.

While I don't go to church, I can certainly appreciate ritual and tradition. A lot of people like things like that. If they want to take part (believing in God or not), more power to them.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

This sounds very much like Unitarianism without the entanglement of god worship. In the end, a social group with a code for living.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

It sounds a bit funny, but why not? It is human nature to crave social interaction, fellowship and 'belongingness'.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
There are good reasons to go to church that have nothing to do with religion

   Agreed and a lot of people (religious ones included) don't appreciate this. For me, church is as much a social gathering (full of reasonably likeminded people I care about and who care about me) as it is a religious one. This is particularly true for the elderly who don't get out too much.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
In the end, a social group with a code for living

  



First to fly on the Boeing 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE; NZ103, AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6962 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Here in France where Atheism is far more common than in North America (even if many won't admit it and say they're Catholic while never praying, never going to church and never caring about things like abstinence, Lent, etc.), we don't have such churches. Or maybe we have : they're called soccer/rugby stadiums ! There is even violence associated with that, in true religious spirits, including a conflict with the state like the riots of yesterday in Paris.

I find the idea ludicrous really, if you want to do charitable things with others there are organizations for that, no need for a church.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
For me when I go to church (which is about once a year) I enjoy it for the singing

Yeah that's the only thing I miss, but then again if I wanted to I can join a chorus.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
at both schools I went to we 'worshipped' at least 4 or 4 times a week

Was that mandatory ?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 3):
So moving forward with that thought, since the point of a church is to bring like-minded individuals on a moral level together to pursue a common goal/lifestyle, where is the divide? Will we have breakaway sects of this church, a la Christianity, to cater to varied secular beliefs?

Yeah, it doesn't make sense, if you want to share with people around something, just join an organization centered around one of your interests, be it fishing or R/C planes or knitting or sadomasochism, there is an organization for everything nowadays.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 4):
Absolutely. I found that out very quickly when I started going to AA meetings

Isn't that a religion ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Was that mandatory ?

Yes. Should have read '3 or 4 times'.



Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1817 times:

Isn't the term "atheist church" an oxymoron?

Just wondering...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1803 times:

Quoting HOmSaR (Thread starter):
Interesting concept, but, it sounds kinda like non-alcoholic beer. I mean...what's really the point?

To me it's more of a bar without the emphasis on alcohol. In fact one of the groups in the article has a pub nite as one of its activities.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 3):
This "atheist church" of course lacks the element of a "God", but still maintains the organized religion aspect of one.

Social organization just for the sake of it? A bit of a turn off to me, because such organizations end up deciding someone must be "in charge" and then from that descends some sort of hierarchy, etc.

To me it sounds like these people need to find a good pub, in the traditional sense. I went to a village pub in the UK and it had four rooms with (more or less) teens in one, twentys/thirties in another, 40/50s in another and 60+ in the fourth, with much circulation in between. The emphasis was on socialization as opposed to getting drunk. Many were drinking tea and soft beverages. Too bad we don't have much stuff like this in the US.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7848 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

What an incrediable stuip idea.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 1):
I enjoy it for the singing, the quiet time and the community aspect.

Just go to a pub, depending on the time of day you can have your quiet time, singing and the community aspect, all with a beer in your hand and a chance to hit on whatever takes your fancy. You can also have eat a packet of chips, something you can't enjoy in Church.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 9):
Isn't the term "atheist church" an oxymoron?

That's what I thought. If one considers that the English word "church" is derived from "kyriakon doma", meaning the Lord's House, then we end up with " a house of the Lord for those who don't believe the Lord exists".

But I thought we already had one. Isn't it called the Church of England?   


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 11):
What an incrediable stuip idea.

I don't see what's so stupid about it. These are people who are searching for like-mindeds out there, while saying "this is what we believe in" as a code for living. Not something you're likely to run into by chance at the pub, unless drinking is a code for living (which it might be for some, I'll grant you). What they believe in doesn't sound half bad, actually:

Quote:
Calgary Secular Church’s Ten Commandments

1: Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.

2: In all things, strive to cause no harm.

3: Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.

4: Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.

5: Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.

6: Always seek to be learning something new.

7: Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.

8: Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.

9: Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.

10: Question everything.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 4):
Absolutely. I found that out very quickly when I started going to AA meetings

Isn't that a religion ?

AA? No, not at all....



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 9):
Isn't the term "atheist church" an oxymoron?
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 11):
What an incrediable stuip idea.

I don't see what's so stupid about it. These are people who are searching for like-mindeds out there, while saying "this is what we believe in" as a code for living. Not something you're likely to run into by chance at the pub, unless drinking is a code for living (which it might be for some, I'll grant you). What they believe in doesn't sound half bad, actually:

Quote:
Calgary Secular Church’s Ten Commandments

1: Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.

2: In all things, strive to cause no harm.

3: Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.

4: Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.

5: Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.

6: Always seek to be learning something new.

7: Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.

8: Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.

9: Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.

10: Question everything.

This sounds like Asimov's three laws of robotics.

Seriously though, atheist church did sound like an oxymoron but I thought about it some more and have come up with this thought. Agree or disagree I don't care, but there could be such a entity but I would consider it more of an agnostic church that an Atheist church due to the fact that they call it a church.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
These are people who are searching for like-mindeds out there, while saying "this is what we believe in" as a code for living

Right, but as above, "church" has a decidedly non-atheist meaning. IMHO it'd be less confusing if they called themselves a "society" or some such.

For instance, dictionary.com gives:

Quote:

church
noun
1. a building for public Christian worship.
2. public worship of God or a religious service in such a building: to attend church regularly.
3. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom.
4. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church.
5. that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc.

The non-traditional Christian organization I'm a member of struggles with the use of the word "church" because it has very traditional and often times negative connotations for many members and/or joiners, so the word is not in the title of our organization.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):

The non-traditional Christian organization I'm a member of struggles with the use of the word "church" because it has very traditional and often times negative connotations for many members and/or joiners, so the word is not in the title of our organization.

This sounds too much like the gay marriage debate, about how the 8 letters M-A-R-R-I-A-G-E in that particular order are sacred, and only between a man and a woman.

Who cares if they want to call it a church?



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 17):
Who cares if they want to call it a church?

I don't care, I just find it confusing. In my book they can call it whatever they want, temple, synagogue, hair salon, etc. but they aren't all that descriptive of their purpose and thus confusing.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 15):
This sounds like Asimov's three laws of robotics.

It's no accident that he came to similar priorities – the "commandments" listed above are just sensible – they combine the innate desire of (most) human beings to live well with the enlightened, scientific way of looking at the world and trying to understand it.

One of the things religions usually try to obfuscate is that fundamental ethical standards are innate in human beings, and have actually not been brought in the world exclusively by the founders of the respective religion, even though many religions falsely claim exactly that.

And unfortunately religions in many cases are actively opposed to the scientific way of finding out the truth about the world, rather going for mythology instead.

Enlightened humanism has none of the ballast of religions: No god, no dogma, no arbitrary discriminations, no conflict with science. But it emphasizes the importance of ethical behaviour, compassion and the importance of the truth, including specifically its verification.

This is where I feel most at home – religions with their superstitions feel rather alien to me.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1939 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 4):
I'm still atheist, but spiritual in certain ways.

Nothing wrong with spiritualism. But is a church a necessary outlet for one's spirituality?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 4):
While you're correct, it's not like our lives would be so much more peaceful if religion was gone. I'd bet all my assets that if religion had never existed, we'd just be fighting over something else.

Fair enough. Indeed there will always be conflict between groups, but I do draw a divide between warring groups who claim an island, and warring groups who just have a different ideology. There's is literally nothing for the victor to show in the latter.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
What they believe in doesn't sound half bad, actually:

Of course it doesn't, because they are just ten things that humans should live by regardless of religion or lack thereof. I seriously feel bad for anyone that needed an "atheist church" to tell them this is how they should live.  



Flying refined.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 20):

Nothing wrong with spiritualism. But is a church a necessary outlet for one's spirituality?

Necessary, of course not. But I don't blame people for wanting the kind of community that a church can foster. I actually like church (at least, some that I've been to), despite not necessarily sharing the beliefs of its members.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 20):
There's is literally nothing for the victor to show in the latter.

Perhaps nothing physical, apart from dead bodies, and an island that has now been forcefully converted. But it seems that a lot of the time, it's simply "Hey God! Look what I did for ya! I killed infidels!"



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

My comment (Rep 9) about "atheist church" being an oxymoron stands, with me, anyway. Many can use many words and feelings to justify the "term", but not me in this case. Doesn't make sense, IMHO.

Although digressing, many out here in the sticks who drive work trucks belong to the Church of Chevy, GMC, Ford or Dodge. And they believe it ! Thre Nissan truck drivers usuallly drive to the mall, or, well...maybe to church.  

Seriosly, while an intersesting topic, I believe that the term "atheistic church" (especially if invented by the inventors) shows a real lack of definining themselves and therefore leads me to suspect true intended design. That's probably another subject that I have no inclination to dwell on; just an opinion. I have no problem with atheism (I'm pretty close, myself) however, although presented beliefs via the "atheist church" mirror mine and many true churches doesn't qualify them to use the term church in their namesake. Just my humble opinion. best regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1531 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
For instance, dictionary.com gives:

Quote:
church
noun
1. a building for public Christian worship.
2. public worship of God or a religious service in such a building: to attend church regularly.
3. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom.
4. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church.
5. that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc.

I have to disagree with dictionary.com's definition. Anton Lavey started the Church of Satan, by no means is that public Christian Worship - nor is it devil worship, but instead more about individualism (which I think the Calgary Secular Church's 10 Commandments would agree on a lot of similarities). It has nothing to do with God or Satan, they are just metaphors.

Another group that refers to themselves as a Church - is the Church Of Scientology, which does not claim to worship any deity, but instead lives life off of the teachings and writings of L. Ron Hubbard.

I could see for those 2 reasons above perhaps the Atheist Church using the term "church", however as a borderline atheist/agnostic I am not really crazy about the concept. As a secular humanist, I would like to see something that sounds less like Organized religion for a group. I think other words could be used such as "Community"


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1521 times:

Well done to "atheists" who have done a fantastic job of turning it into a religion lately. I wondered when the atheist churches were coming. :I

I now re-classify myself as a "nonbeliever," which is accurate and doesn't seem to be as militant.


User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2302 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1528 times:

Sounds like this Church here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
10: Question everything.

Why?

[Edited 2013-05-20 00:09:50]

User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1527 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
Well done to "atheists" who have done a fantastic job of turning it into a religion lately

   These atheists have become just as dogmatic as their faithful brethren. By the way, is 'non-believer' a different animal from 'agnostic'?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1518 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 25):
Why?

Why not?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7975 posts, RR: 19
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1497 times:

Atheist churches.....what an oxymoron!  

This concept would make realist's eyes roll...unless this whole thing is just a joke.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1492 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 23):
I have to disagree with dictionary.com's definition.

No worries, it's hard to say when a dictionary should expand to include various uses of a word.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 23):
As a secular humanist, I would like to see something that sounds less like Organized religion for a group. I think other words could be used such as "Community"

Agreed, I was trying to make that point above. I am not defensive with regard to the term 'church', I just think it's confusing because (a) to many it does imply Christianity and (b) to many it suggests hierarchy (as in 'The Church of Rome').

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
Well done to "atheists" who have done a fantastic job of turning it into a religion lately. I wondered when the atheist churches were coming. :I

Indeed, I thought one reason people were atheist was because they felt religion was a huge power grab and thus rejected the idea of formally organizing, which inevitably leads to hierarchies with power over others.

Quoting comorin (Reply 26):
By the way, is 'non-believer' a different animal from 'agnostic'?

I think so. An agnostic says 'I don't know' and leaves open the possibility of a higher power/being/whatever, a non-believer says they don't believe in such.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 26):
These atheists have become just as dogmatic as their faithful brethren. By the way, is 'non-believer' a different animal from 'agnostic'?

Could be the same. Difference is my view is "There are no gods." Not "I am not sure."

The term "supernatural" is a logical contradiction. It describes something impossible. If the impossible occurs, then it must be possible. Similarly, if something exists, it must be out of nature, or it does not exist.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Similarly, if something exists, it must be out of nature, or it does not exist.

Again, to dictionary.com:

Quote:

su·per·nat·u·ral
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

This definition means that it exists but is not explainable by natural law.

Your definition would work if natural law was complete but IMHO it is not - we're adding to it every day by things we learn but there's tons of things we know we don't understand. Witness Higgs boson, dark matter, etc.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1335 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 28):
This concept would make realist's eyes roll

Well, they're not called Realist Churches....

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
Indeed, I thought one reason people were atheist was because they felt religion was a huge power grab and thus rejected the idea of formally organizing, which inevitably leads to hierarchies with power over others.

Depends on how you structure it. I'll return to my example of AA. Group meetings, lots of support, virtually no power-grabbing. No one is in charge at your typical AA meeting. I'm sure conflicts do arise, but they're probably handled within and by the group.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

While I feel that people have the right to worship/not worship as they please. But all too often in the U.S. if someone says "I go to church" others almost automatically will think "Oh, what a nice guy. He goes to church." Well, it's what is being taught in their church that counts.

The "church" they go to could be a mind controlling cult. They are plenty of them out there. I have found that a lot of people use "church" as a way to control people into acting how THEY want them to act, not how they normally would be. I have neighbors like this. One Sunday a few years ago I was out washing my car. I was drinking a beer while doing this. The neighbor woman came out and told me how sinful it was that I was drinking a beer, especially on a Sunday and that I should be very shameful of my actions.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1301 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):

This definition means that it exists but is not explainable by natural law.

Right, which is an impossibility. Either it exists in the universe, in which case it is explainable by natural... or it does not exist in the universe.

There is nothing that exists and cannot be explained by natural law because all things are subject to it. (I differentiate "cannot be explained" from "has not yet been explained.")

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
Your definition would work if natural law was complete but IMHO it is not

But you are quite wrong. Natural law is complete. It is merely our understanding of it that is incomplete.


User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1253 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):

Yeah, doc, I understand your deal here. But WHAT if there are parallel universes?

Just asking....best regards...ajck



all best; jack
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1253 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Natural law is complete. It is merely our understanding of it that is incomplete.

The contradiction is that the dictionary definition includes "unexplainable by natural law" whereas you assert everything is explainable by natural law.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
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