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Brutal Suicide On Japanese Train Sta. This Morning  
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

This link is in Japanese only but I will translate. Also I'll include a link from Twitter which includes a photo, but warning! That photo is brutal.
Japanese Link: (note- stuff in Parenthesis are added from different sources to explain further)
http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0515/TKY201305150029.html

Quote:
(today, May 15) at Yurakucho Station, a Man (in his 20s or 30s) jumped in front of an Ômiya-bound Local Keihin-Tohoku Train and died. Because of this, The Keihin-Tohoku Line, as well as the Yamanote Line (the loop around central Tokyo), the Tokaido Line, (the Shonan-Shinjuku Line, Saikyo Line, and other lines) were stopped or delayed for longer than an hour. An estimated 231,000 people were effected directly, according to JR East.


Twitter photo **not for feint of heart**: https://twitter.com/hikonyan117/status/334612483216138240/photo/1
Other Sources: http://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXNASDG15029_V10C13A5CC0000/

Now this is something which is a huge issue in Japan, as I've stated before. And this isn't a first time thing at all. If you have me on facebook, you saw that a suicide cancelled a number of trains from Tokyo station which prevented me from getting home sunday. This morning, because of the closure of one train line, other train lines (that aren't even connected physically to those other lines!) were late...and because of that, I ended up sardined against the side of the train I was riding to get to school....and I was late.

Its a huge issue because these people have so many suppressed issues, they choose to let it all out and end it all in a way they could never do before- publicly, dramatically, TRAUMATICALLY (for the driver of that train for sure!) and in a way which will make people always remember who the heck this crazy guy was, because he impacted so many people. I guarantee you that more than a million people were effected by this than the 231,000 stated by JR East.

In Japan, if someone uses an oncoming train to end their life, the train company typically brings their family to court and charges them exorbitant amounts of money. They have the right to as well, because these cause such horrid delays and not to mention the damage caused to this particular EMU.

Japanese people need to learn that if they have depression, or suicidal thoughts, that they need to seek help. I've seen reports and governmental releases encouraging seeking help too, because of how huge of a problem this is becoming recently. As for the victim, I have zero sympathy for someone who does something like this. It causes such a huge mess for everyone involved, and not to mention for the driver who had the horrible circumstance of killing this man.
This is harsh, but its true. I did not need to be late this morning. I woke up as I usually do, I get my breakfast like I always do, and go to school like I always do. Me and everyone else on the trains this morning. We have our own lives, our own issues, and our own problems. This guy's issues, whatever they were, became MY problems this morning, in the form of massive delays and inconveniences. We did not need these. This man should have solved his issues or at least if he wanted to kill himself, do it in a way which didn't cause such a huge mess this morning.

Also there was a second suicide this evening at Tokyo Station which also screwed up some lines. Thankfully it was an isolated line...if it was the same line as this morning, I may not have gotten home tonight.

Thoughts?


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

This happens a lot also in the NYC subway system...

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
In Japan, if someone uses an oncoming train to end their life, the train company typically brings their family to court and charges them exorbitant amounts of money. They have the right to as well, because these cause such horrid delays and not to mention the damage caused to this particular EMU.

That is pretty messed up. How could the family be held responsible ? So if one suspects a family member is depressed what are they supposed to do ? How could the court possibly side with the train company ???



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 885 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3849 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
That is pretty messed up. How could the family be held responsible ? So if one suspects a family member is depressed what are they supposed to do ? How could the court possibly side with the train company ???

  

If someone feels that there is no other way out that is incredibly sad, but yes, very selfish also to jump in front of a train, but I'm thinking of primarily the driver and the clean up crew.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I guarantee you that more than a million people were effected by this than the 231,000 stated by JR East.

As a society things happen on a daily basis, be it road accidents, weather delays, strikes or a thousand other things. I crashed my bike a while ago, and that delayed a few people who stopped to see if I was ok. I appreciated that, and I'd do the same for someone else.

It sounds like your delayed arrival home means more to you than someone's life...



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
That is pretty messed up. How could the family be held responsible ? So if one suspects a family member is depressed what are they supposed to do ? How could the court possibly side with the train company ???

In Japan, families are the unit of division in the country. There's a huge family registry which is kept for the census, and people are typically identified by their family. In standard conversation, acquaintances, business conversations, and the like, are always referred to by their family name (for example, if someone was named Taro Yamamoto, he would be called "Mr. Yamamoto" by everyone, not just business. It's a different context than in America.) and because of this familial system, the train companies will hold the families responsible for compensating the huge delays incurred.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
. I crashed my bike a while ago, and that delayed a few people who stopped to see if I was ok. I appreciated that, and I'd do the same for someone else.

It sounds like your delayed arrival home means more to you than someone's life...

That's a voluntary delay. We were forced to be delayed. a huge difference.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1261 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3807 times:

Sad event, I guess it's combination of Japanese culture and failures in the society that contribute to these.

I feel bad for the train driver and others who saw the event, other than that I'm glad it delayed a lot of people. Problems like this should never be ignored like they would if these people killed themselves quietly instead of very public way. More problems it causes to daily lives of people around the better (as long as nobody else gets physically hurt), maybe then they would realize how necessary it's to really start seriously acting against this problem.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 4):
other than that I'm glad it delayed a lot of people. Problems like this should never be ignored like they would if these people killed themselves quietly instead of very public way.

Be careful with your wording, but i totally understand your point. There are indeed issues with Japanese society, which I hope get addressed. JR East has been doing preventative measures such as installing platform edge doors at some stations and using blue lights which are supposed to calm suicidal passengers, but obviously those blue lights didn't work this morning. And also as you stated it doesn't necessarily solve the suicide issue at hand.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 4):
More problems it causes to daily lives of people around the better (as long as nobody else gets physically hurt), maybe then they would realize how necessary it's to really start seriously acting against this problem.

Well there have been some injuries which have occurred when someone else commits suicide. One of my friends was on board a train which hit someone, and when the driver hit the emergency brake, my friend fell against the wall and got a concussion. Couldn't play basketball for the rest of that season.
Also in 2011 when a woman jumped infront of the Narita Express train (google it if you don't know what it is) her body flew back into a kiosk on the platform and injured four others. But man realize that the traumatic injuries are often unrepairable.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Be careful with your wording
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
...Couldn't play basketball for the rest of that season.

Deserving of meme...Doc, where are you?


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3752 times:
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Pretty tragic when it happens and sympathies go out to the bereaved.

But these things happen on just about every urban rail network at sometime.

Here in London there are such jumpers most weeks.

Suicide is the most selfish of actions really.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7382 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

In the 2.5 years I lived in London I was stuck on underground train 3-4 times due to suicide by train, one of my flatmates for a time was a guard on the Northern Line, he reckoned every driver on the Underground had been involved in a suicide by train incident, some drivers had multiple suicides under their belts, he had been involved in one.

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3724 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
In Japan, if someone uses an oncoming train to end their life, the train company typically brings their family to court and charges them exorbitant amounts of money. They have the right to as well, because these cause such horrid delays and not to mention the damage caused to this particular EMU.

That is pretty messed up. How could the family be held responsible ? So if one suspects a family member is depressed what are they supposed to do ? How could the court possibly side with the train company ???

I don't think they are actually suing the family, rather they are suing the estate of the deceased in which the family is the executor of said estate. If the operator is successful in their lawsuit, they would be compensated from the assets in the estate of the deceased, with no liability on the part of the family.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

There are 5-600 "suicides by train" in France every year, and that is a very different society than Japan. A third happens in the Paris region, so when I used to commute to Paris I was affected regularly.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 7):
Suicide is the most selfish of actions really.

It sure is to the rational mind.

Unfortunately, depression distorts rationality.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetz757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2868 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I did not need to be late this morning. I woke up as I usually do, I get my breakfast like I always do, and go to school like I always do. Me and everyone else on the trains this morning. We have our own lives, our own issues, and our own problems. This guy's issues, whatever they were, became MY problems this morning, in the form of massive delays and inconveniences. We did not need these

I'm pretty sure the planet doesn't revolve solely around you. And if the entire Japanese society thinks like the way you do, no wonder he committed suicide. He probably thought there was nobody to go to since everyone only cares about themselves. Maybe Japan needs a sense of compassion for those going through a difficult time in their lives?



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3628 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
It sure is to the rational mind.

Unfortunately, depression distorts rationality.

Very much so .

Clinical depression can be devastating -its far more than simple Monday morning blues !

There are many differing and complex reasons that drive peoples desperation to the point of self distraction its true.


User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Japanese people need to learn that if they have depression, or suicidal thoughts, that they need to seek help. I've seen reports and governmental releases encouraging seeking help too, because of how huge of a problem this is becoming recently. As for the victim, I have zero sympathy for someone who does something like this. It causes such a huge mess for everyone involved, and not to mention for the driver who had the horrible circumstance of killing this man

"They need to seek help" is easier said than done. If you ever have depression, tell me, and I'll tell you to pick yourself up by your boots. Then tell me then how easy it is to seek help, believe me, it was the hardest thing I have ever done.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10029 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3518 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
because he impacted so many people

Pun intended?

Sorry, couldn't resist that.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I did not need to be late this morning. I woke up as I usually do, I get my breakfast like I always do, and go to school like I always do. Me and everyone else on the trains this morning. We have our own lives, our own issues, and our own problems. This guy's issues, whatever they were, became MY problems this morning, in the form of massive delays and inconveniences. We did not need these. This man should have solved his issues or at least if he wanted to kill himself, do it in a way which didn't cause such a huge mess this morning.

Heaven forbid you are forced to deal with someone else's problem for a brief time in your life. For all your talk about Japanese society and such, this is pretty much the antithesis of society - keep your crap to yourself, let me go on about my life.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I may not have gotten home tonight.

You know two people aren't going home ever again, right?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1363 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
This is harsh, but its true. I did not need to be late this morning. I woke up as I usually do, I get my breakfast like I always do, and go to school like I always do. Me and everyone else on the trains this morning. We have our own lives, our own issues, and our own problems. This guy's issues, whatever they were, became MY problems this morning, in the form of massive delays and inconveniences. We did not need these. This man should have solved his issues or at least if he wanted to kill himself, do it in a way which didn't cause such a huge mess this morning.

You think that's hard to deal with? It rained on my car last night. Real, wet, water droplety, Rain. I don't think you understand how traumatic that is, and how difficult that can be to deal with at the start of one's day. I had to sit in car, with the defrost on for almost 30 seconds before I could leave.

And to top it all off, I totally saw a stray cat on the way down to the freeway. I had to think about all that stuff, which made them MY problems now. I hope you understand how hard this is even to relate...

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 14):
"They need to seek help" is easier said than done. If you ever have depression, tell me, and I'll tell you to pick yourself up by your boots. Then tell me then how easy it is to seek help, believe me, it was the hardest thing I have ever done.

Totally agree. I hope the OP never experiences what causes this behavior. Clearly, he doesn't have the experience to understand the complexities that cause these things.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

I normally quite like your posts but now i think you need to step back a little bit.

Several years ago now I have seen a man in the last few possible seconds calmly & purposely step off the platform right in front of an oncoming train while i was heading home after college. I certainly did not think or make a problem of the fact that i was going to get home later via an excruciating detour. As i did then & still do now whenever i hear of something like this happening my only thought is how sad it is that another human being just like us was so down & out that he or she could only see suicide as a way out.

At least you can still get home & be thankful that you are not struggling with problems to the point that it gets the better of you & suicide seems to be the only way out. That should be a pretty big plus for all of us really, but that's just my way of thinking.



I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

The same thing happens on the Tokaido line down here once or twice a month. They still have not installed fencing along parts of the line that would prevent someone from getting on the tracks - there are simply too many at-grade vehicular crossings in the less urban parts of the line to achieve total prevention. One of the most interesting things is that in English-speaking countries, we'll refer to these instances as "jumpers" and "suicides". In Japan everything is an "accident" euphemistically.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Japanese people need to learn that if they have depression, or suicidal thoughts, that they need to seek help.

This is a pipe dream. Japanese mental health services and support are 15-20 years behind their western counterparts, and that's not saying much when even services in the US are lacking.

Admitting fault is easy in this culture, asking for help is not because it brings shame. Remember that from the time people are primary school kids here, it is internalized that if you can't fall in line and literally do as others do, you're NG.

Many large companies do not even have a counselor on-staff. I think it is quite easy for foreigners here to fail to realize that many Japanese lead lives of heavy isolation and little to no interpersonal communication outside of the workplace, and that is a toxic formula for those prone to depression.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
This man should have solved his issues or at least if he wanted to kill himself, do it in a way which didn't cause such a huge mess this morning.

Probably seems impossible to a depressed person, especially in Tokyo.

Quoting tz757300 (Reply 12):
Maybe Japan needs a sense of compassion for those going through a difficult time in their lives?

This would help dramatically. It's not as if it's not around. In my time here, I have seen incredible acts of compassion that surprised and amazed me. At the same time, I've had enough exposure to the working world here to understand that plenty of people have workplace atmospheres that utterly destroy them interpersonally, and as work is basically the center of life for a young Japanese man, there is no way out.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

I'm with the OP on this one.

I'd even go further than that:

http://youtu.be/G7Muj1Sb6uA?t=25s

This.



Cheers
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3218 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 19):
I'm with the OP on this one.

Don't need to live or visit here then, thanks. That link is pretty deplorable.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 19):
This.

Clarkson's comment was meant a joke that the program apologized for at the end of the show (one of two subjects he joked about on the One Show that night).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCO2GgkjRgk



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17504 posts, RR: 45
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 18):
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):This man should have solved his issues or at least if he wanted to kill himself, do it in a way which didn't cause such a huge mess this morning.
Probably seems impossible to a depressed person, especially in Tokyo.

It's certainly not going to get better with that attitude! The long over due baby steps recently made in the US toward a national dialogue on long taboo mental issues must look like a wholesale airing of personal dirty laundry in Japan.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 20):
Don't need to live or visit here then, thanks. That link is pretty deplorable.

I wasn't planning on it, to be honest.

The way Clarkson put it is very blunt, but the overall meaning of it is true.

Suicide is a terrible act, and everything possible should be done to prevent this. People who feel like letting go have to speak up to be rescued and lots of work has to be put into that, from education, to entire societal changes.

BUT. To forget that these acts affect hundreds of thousands of other people around is wrong. I don't see why so many should be affected by the acts of a few. It's not about being inhumane it's about being fair. There's no fairness in losing your job because you couldn't make it, because someone offed themselves on the rails. There's no fairness in having to witness someone being crushed under a train.

Of course saying it is not politically correct. It doesn't make it any less true.

[Edited 2013-05-16 02:06:31]


Cheers
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Japanese society is still among the very best on this planet!

Compare the Japanese people's response to the tsunami/nuclear disaster to say, Hurricane Katrina here in the US. Look at their homes and workplaces. Look at their crime rate and education. They are leaders in virtually everything that they undertake and do even the most mundane things with a level of care that your average American wouldn't recognize if it bit him in the ass. It's not a coincidence.

So, on balance I'd say the Japanese concept of shame is overwhelmingly positive even if it comes with negative consequences such as a high suicide rate. No such thing as a free lunch.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 23):
The way Clarkson put it is very blunt, but the overall meaning of it is true.

The way Clarkson meant what he said was as a joke.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

I like what Singapore does with their MTR system. They have proper floor-to-ceiling barriers with doors in them that physically prevent people from from going over the edge of the platform. In addition to preventing suicides, it also stops people going over the edge accidentally. It looks much tidier too, though I guess that could just be Singapore being Singapore. Obviously these barriers only works for the underground bits of the train/subway system. http://bit.ly/15Pglx5

As for the suicides, I understand that people aren't in a 'rational' state of mind, but it is just plain cruel to commit the act infront of others. A few months ago one of my friends was waiting for a friend in the atrium of a building at university. Someone 'jumped' from six floors up and landed very close to her. Unsurprisingly she is still haunted by this. http://bit.ly/YYiAuR



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3199 times:
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Quoting zkojq (Reply 26):
They have proper floor-to-ceiling barriers with doors in them that physically prevent people from from going over the edge of the platform.

This is only possible in a "new build" system that uses a standard train design.
Older systems that have varying car designs and platfoms that serve multiple train systems can't be fitted this way.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 27):
This is only possible in a "new build" system that uses a standard train design.
Older systems that have varying car designs and platforms that serve multiple train systems can't be fitted this way.

Good point, hadn't thought of that.   

Additional point; the barriers prevent incidents like this happening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQm25nW6aZw

[Edited 2013-05-16 06:04:26]


Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

I appreciate the input guys, even despite my apparent controversial views on this subject. But trust me on this, they aren't just my views, they are the views of quite a lot of people here.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 8):
some drivers had multiple suicides under their belts, he had been involved in one.

Damn, those guys must have balls of steel. I heard of a guy who was the driver of a suicide train and he apparently never even stepped foot inside a train ever again because of the PTSD. He drove everywhere or flew if he had to go somewhere a Shinkansen easily reached.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
. If the operator is successful in their lawsuit, they would be compensated from the assets in the estate of the deceased, with no liability on the part of the family.

Not necessarily a lawsuit but more of a fine assessed on the family itself. I don't know the exact nature but I do know that the compensation comes in ¥¥¥¥¥¥.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
Unfortunately, depression distorts rationality.

Sad truth, which is why people should probably seek help sooner.... or society reach out to these people...

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 13):
its far more than simple Monday morning blues !

Actually an interesting statistic- most of these suicides seem to happen on mondays.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 15):
Sorry, couldn't resist that.

ohhhhhh you   

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 15):

Heaven forbid you are forced to deal with someone else's problem for a brief time in your life. For all your talk about Japanese society and such, this is pretty much the antithesis of society - keep your crap to yourself, let me go on about my life.
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 16):
You think that's hard to deal with? It rained on my car last night. Real, wet, water droplety, Rain. I don't think you understand how traumatic that is, and how difficult that can be to deal with at the start of one's day. I had to sit in car, with the defrost on for almost 30 seconds before I could leave.
Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 17):
I normally quite like your posts but now i think you need to step back a little bit.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
It's certainly not going to get better with that attitude! The long over due baby steps recently made in the US toward a national dialogue on long taboo mental issues must look like a wholesale airing of personal dirty laundry in Japan.

And here's the controversy here: The sad reality of it is, this isn't just a "me" thing. If you read any Japan-related forums, or twitter, or anything where people share their opinion about being in Japan or being Japanese, this is a commonly held belief. Remember, I wasn't the only one inconvenienced yesterday. According to gross estimates nearly 1-2 million were effected by this. One of the posters on Gaijin pot on a related incident stated that choosing a train to commit suicide is the most selfish and thoughtless way possible to go out. He also stated that this method is typically chosen amongst those whose final wish is to seek the most attention possible. In other words- depressed attention whores. Something along their lifespan didn't go right and they didn't fix it right or chose not to. Because they instead chose to let all this out against all of us, who have nothing to do with them, I honestly doubt anyone has any sympathy either if they were effected by this. One of my buddies was telling me that he was pissed at whoever jumped, and a different buddy said that he was "glad that guy's dead," evoking a darwin award joke. Those two were excessively harsh, but you should realize this pisses more people off than it evokes sympathy.

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 18):
Quoting tz757300 (Reply 12):
Maybe Japan needs a sense of compassion for those going through a difficult time in their lives?

This would help dramatically.

This is what I was stating earlier about cultural shifts- Japan needs to shift to a more compassionate state of mind.

Simply saying "hi" to others on the street may help a little in my opinion.

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 19):
I'd even go further than that:

Ok I don't like that video; the whole thing is completely different.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 24):
Japanese society is still among the very best on this planet!

It is which is why they have this potential to shift to a more compassionate state of mind.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 27):
Quoting zkojq (Reply 26):
They have proper floor-to-ceiling barriers with doors in them that physically prevent people from from going over the edge of the platform.

This is only possible in a "new build" system that uses a standard train design.
Older systems that have varying car designs and platfoms that serve multiple train systems can't be fitted this way.

And installing ths on old systems is extremely expensive. In order to do so on the Yamanote line, they had to reconfigure the entire trainset so it could fit.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2404 posts, RR: 13
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 13):
Clinical depression can be devastating -its far more than simple Monday morning blues !

It is much worse than a "Monday morning blues". But there remains a big misunderstanding.

Depression is NOT being in a bad mood. Depression is not about being unmotivated, sad or somber. It is rather a detachment from all feelings, both the positive and negative ones. That's why they aren't affected by otherwise good things, like the sunny Sunday. Or visits by friends. Or a pay rise. Or being given a gift. As a friend or relative, one is simply unable to improve the mood of a depressed person, no matter how.

And they aren't impressed by criticism and bad behaviour either. They can appear extremely tough, they can go on working despite the co-workers are hostile and the boss employs a rigorous hire-and-fire style.

Either way, one needs emotions to cope in life. There is a big void which saps and destroys the will to life.


David

[Edited 2013-05-16 06:16:50]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Well, I have read about an incident in China, where a guy was sitting on the railing of a bridge, still deciding if he should jump or not and a man, pretending to help him, suddenly pushed him off, later stating that the suicidical person was being an inconvenience to everybody else and should have had the guts to just jump, as not to disturb the others anymore.

I have also heard about other, similar, incidents in China, where the suicidical person was egged on by bystanders to kill himself, so that he wouldn´t trouble the others anymore.

I find this actually much worse than people coming late for work:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22551126

Man commits suicide with sawn off shotgun in front of children in a nursery school in Paris.

Jan

[Edited 2013-05-16 06:23:55]

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2404 posts, RR: 13
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3118 times:

Nothing graphic here, but several real suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxtXjAZeyaY

Wikipedia on that documentary film, "The Bridge": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_%282006_documentary_film%29


David

[Edited 2013-05-16 06:39:04]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10029 posts, RR: 26
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3059 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
And here's the controversy here: The sad reality of it is, this isn't just a "me" thing. If you read any Japan-related forums, or twitter, or anything where people share their opinion about being in Japan or being Japanese, this is a commonly held belief. Remember, I wasn't the only one inconvenienced yesterday. According to gross estimates nearly 1-2 million were effected by this. One of the posters on Gaijin pot on a related incident stated that choosing a train to commit suicide is the most selfish and thoughtless way possible to go out. He also stated that this method is typically chosen amongst those whose final wish is to seek the most attention possible. In other words- depressed attention whores. Something along their lifespan didn't go right and they didn't fix it right or chose not to. Because they instead chose to let all this out against all of us, who have nothing to do with them, I honestly doubt anyone has any sympathy either if they were effected by this. One of my buddies was telling me that he was pissed at whoever jumped, and a different buddy said that he was "glad that guy's dead," evoking a darwin award joke. Those two were excessively harsh, but you should realize this pisses more people off than it evokes sympathy.

So? Just because more than one person feels that way doesn't mean my view on it changes. The very fact that many Japanese people look at it as an annoyance rather than a tragedy is very likely directly related to the reason it happens in the first place.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
depressed attention whores.

You understand that depression is more than just, "oh it's cloudy today, and my girlfriend and I got in a fight, and I didn't sleep well, I think I'll kill myself", right?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1291 posts, RR: 8
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 33):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
depressed attention whores.

You understand that depression is more than just, "oh it's cloudy today, and my girlfriend and I got in a fight, and I didn't sleep well, I think I'll kill myself", right?

I'm not picking on either of you in particular, but I think we're missing the mark a bit in this debate. The way I see it, there are two issues: attitudes towards suicide in general and attitudes towards this particular method of suicide.

Regarding the first, vikkyvik (and others) have it right. Suicide has a ton of factors, both individual and societal. Preventing suicides requires a complex effort on both the individual and societal levels. Both ways, it's an effort worth making. I think anyone who hears about a suicide by gunshot, hanging, or any other method in private and thinks of it as much other than a tragedy is a cold person indeed. (Although one can debate assisted suicide, that's not the issue here at all.)

But frankly, I don't think PHX787 is reacting to that, along with others. I think they're reacting to the fact that this person, in killing themselves in public, in a crowd, and in a manner that is disruptive to many others, is being selfish (at least in their view). As in "okay, well, if he had to kill himself, why not slit his wrists in a bathtub like some decent person? Or at least go get hit by a freight train and not delay the subway?" What we're debating is our tolerance for one person inconveniencing many (and what are valid reasons for that), not anything about suicide.

Think of it this way: if this person had a heart attack and fell on the tracks in front of the train, how would this change your feelings? I'd wager that it splits 3 ways: some people would be mad at the person for delaying their commute; others would realize nothing could be done but still be mad about at the delay because one person screwed up the commute of many; others would simply feel bad for the person and not worry about the delay. The only difference with the suicide is that it's a voluntary action. I'd bet that most of the people who are pissed off by the suicide would probably fall into the first two categories on the heart attack.

It's pretty ironic, really: the people who are most selfish about their own commuting time are the most angry at the person for their selfish suicide method.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

Quoting IADCA (Reply 34):
Think of it this way: if this person had a heart attack and fell on the tracks in front of the train, how would this change your feelings? I'd wager that it splits 3 ways: some people would be mad at the person for delaying their commute; others would realize nothing could be done but still be mad about at the delay because one person screwed up the commute of many; others would simply feel bad for the person and not worry about the delay. The only difference with the suicide is that it's a voluntary action. I'd bet that most of the people who are pissed off by the suicide would probably fall into the first two categories on the heart attack.

My feelings would be as such: If the person had a heart attack, or was pushed onto the tracks by a criminal, or maybe even if he was drunk and fell onto the tracks I'd have quite a bit of sympathy for him, since he did not do this deliberately in those cases. But since he deliberately decided to disrupt the whole natural order of things, I can't find it in myself to give any sympathy.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10029 posts, RR: 26
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2964 times:
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Quoting IADCA (Reply 34):

But frankly, I don't think PHX787 is reacting to that, along with others. I think they're reacting to the fact that this person, in killing themselves in public, in a crowd, and in a manner that is disruptive to many others, is being selfish (at least in their view). As in "okay, well, if he had to kill himself, why not slit his wrists in a bathtub like some decent person? Or at least go get hit by a freight train and not delay the subway?" What we're debating is our tolerance for one person inconveniencing many (and what are valid reasons for that), not anything about suicide.

I understand what he's reacting to. Doesn't change my view. One has to look at, "why did this person feel the need to publicly commit suicide?" I truly doubt it's as simple as "I'll show the world what I think of them!", even if the person doesn't realize it.

Again, I think it's a societal thing, and I'd wager that the very fact that people are more annoyed by it than anything is probably a factor, knowingly or unknowingly, in causing this type of suicide to happen.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 34):
It's pretty ironic, really: the people who are most selfish about their own commuting time are the most angry at the person for their selfish suicide method.

Very true.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
But since he deliberately decided to disrupt the whole natural order of things, I can't find it in myself to give any sympathy.

Why can't public suicides be part of the "natural order of things"?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2935 times:

Quoting IADCA (Reply 34):
It's pretty ironic, really: the people who are most selfish about their own commuting time are the most angry at the person for their selfish suicide method.

A person whose day has been made needlessly more difficult by someone else's actions is not being 'selfish' for calling it out, any more than someone who objects to getting mugged!

This pity party has got to stop. People have the right to kill themselves all they want, but do it on your own time and your own dime! I like the idea of going after the estate of the deceased if they choose to do this.


Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
Why can't public suicides be part of the "natural order of things"?

They can so long as they don't stop the trains!  



[Edited 2013-05-16 13:38:12]

User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3863 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Speaking of suicide...



I took this picture a few years ago on my way back to the Bay Area from San Diego. This on the I-5 and Hwy 14 interchange south of Santa Clarita. Traffic had slowed down to a crawl. He jumped to his death about an hour later.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25260 posts, RR: 85
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2883 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
I appreciate the input guys, even despite my apparent controversial views on this subject. But trust me on this, they aren't just my views, they are the views of quite a lot of people here.

Looking for validation in numbers?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):
The way Clarkson meant what he said was as a joke

Very often hard to tell with him.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 7):
Suicide is the most selfish of actions really.

So?

I'm getting on and when my life becomes intolerable - to me - I fully intend to end it. I will not end my days as an old man in a wheelchair with drool dribbling down my chin, someone else wiping my arse and a lot of doctors feeling smug because they kept me alive for so long - against my wishes.

Selfish? You betcha. It's my life.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1291 posts, RR: 8
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 37):
A person whose day has been made needlessly more difficult by someone else's actions is not being 'selfish' for calling it out, any more than someone who objects to getting mugged!

This pity party has got to stop. People have the right to kill themselves all they want, but do it on your own time and your own dime! I like the idea of going after the estate of the deceased if they choose to do this.

I think you're attaching a value judgment to my statement that I didn't intend. Selfishness is just putting one's own considerations ahead of those of others. Not a pity party on either side. I think committing suicide in public is being selfish, just as being pissed off because your relatively few minutes in commuting time trumps the needs of police, etc. to clean up the mess and investigate is selfish too. (I mean, let's face it, once it's done, it's done. It's different when the delay is talking down somebody who's going to jump from a bridge. Doing that in public is an obvious cry for help. We're discussing completed suicides here). Not saying either is better or worse than the other, or even more or less selfish. Just that they both are literal self-interested prioritizations.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2843 times:

Quoting IADCA (Reply 40):
I think you're attaching a value judgment to my statement that I didn't intend. Selfishness is just putting one's own considerations ahead of those of others. Not a pity party on either side. I think committing suicide in public is being selfish, just as being pissed off because your relatively few minutes in commuting time trumps the needs of police, etc. to clean up the mess and investigate is selfish too. (I mean, let's face it, once it's done, it's done. It's different when the delay is talking down somebody who's going to jump from a bridge. Doing that in public is an obvious cry for help. We're discussing completed suicides here). Not saying either is better or worse than the other, or even more or less selfish. Just that they both are literal self-interested prioritizations.

Makes sense to me - rant officially retracted  
Quoting Confuscius (Reply 38):
Speaking of suicide...

DAMN!


User currently offlineN751PR From Japan, joined May 2002, 1249 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

A few years ago I was doing my regular commute on a Metrolink train from LA to Palmdale when the train struck someone laying on the tracks on the outskirts of the Santa Clarita Valley, wreaking havoc on the evening commute schedule with passengers on the Antelope Valley Line trains scheduled after ours resorting to alternate transportation provided by the agency.

Those of us onboard the train that "did the deed" didn't have that luxury of finding alternate transportation as the incident occurred in a remote part of the valley and we had to hold out until the Sheriffs completed interviews with passengers and crew as well as clearing the "debris". I can never forget looking out from our window to the curve where the strike occurred and seeing birds picking at the body as we waited for the authorities to reach the scene. We arrived home close to midnight, about 5 hours later than scheduled. By then, transit connections from the train were long gone making it hard for those that relied on public transportation entirely to get from work to home.

The comments with regards to this form of suicide seen in this thread echo what I kept on hearing onboard and were further exacerbated when the likes of air conditioning and working lavatories were slowly cut off as the wait grew longer, updates were rare, and tempers understandably rose.

Remarks like "why couldn't he have just hung or OD himself instead of f*cking with our commute?" constantly came up as we waited. Having been personally impacted by losing an old friend to suicide, I can't say it's as "easy" as it sounds. What does such inconveniences matter to the person doing the deed? By then you've already forgone not just your life but the lives of your loved ones who will be forced to live with this and will remember this event more than just "that one day our commute went to hell". So if you've already disregarded such in such a destructive, irrational state of mind, what does affecting a larger group of strangers--ranging from the several hundred of us Metrolink riders to the 1-2 million JR East commuters--matter to the person? It's not like they'll be alive to see the ensuing sh*tstorm and face the consequences of their actions themselves***.

Selfish? Yes, but indeed rationality and the deeper depths of depression aren't exactly fine dancing partners. Going back to my old friend, heaven knows how many times I tried doing my part to intervene and how much more I wish I could've done. Christ, she was already 5150ed a couple weeks before she hung herself. She had a beautiful mind, so much talent, and a loving husband and son who visited her often in the hospital. You'd think she had a lot going for her. Going off on another tangent, I remember her thoughtfulness when she brought me a copy of NW's in-flight magazine from her trip. As much as I love collecting them, I didn't think I needed the magazine as I was about to fly LAX-NRT-MNL-NRT-NGO/NRT-LAX on NW with plentiful opportunities to grab my own copy but I greatly appreciated her thoughtfulness. Lo and behold when I did the trip, there were none of that month's World Traveler were to be had! I made sure to make the effort to thank her when I returned...only to find out that she hung herself just hours before I came back from NRT.

_______________


***That is unless you decide to botch it at the last minute and have 11 people killed instead. Then you just get to see the consequences yourself and live with it while serving multiple life sentences in prison.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 38):
Speaking of suicide...

God, I remember that one too! I wasn't commuting that day (not that I would've seen it as the tracks go on tunnel under the 5-14 interchange) but remember hearing it often among the commuter chatter for the following days from folks that use that interchange to get home.

[Edited 2013-05-16 16:07:56]


"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
It's certainly not going to get better with that attitude!

That's the Japanese attitude toward most things that are too difficult/emotional to deal with. If something is too めんどくさい (a catch-all phrase for bothersome things), most people here are happy to just look the other way. If there is any real weak point to this society, that's one of them.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
Simply saying "hi" to others on the street may help a little in my opinion.

It absolutely would. But in a culture and language system with feudal roots, there remains a stark contrast to the needle-in-a-haystack-in-a-metropolis lifestyles of many young people here.

Make no mistake people, the baby boomer generation here has a lot of the blame for this. Many Japanese parents coddle their children quite generally, and people I know have done ridiculous things like travel to their university-age kids' homes on weekends to help them clean, and take them to the convenience store to SHOW THEM HOW TO PAY UTILITY BILLS.

Imagine how that young person is going to be screwed when they get into the working world, encounter some hardship, and are living away from their family in a massive cauldron of daily stresses and teeming masses like Tokyo. Recipe for depression for sure.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently onlinemelpax From Australia, joined Apr 2005, 1620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

Happens all too frequently in these parts as well. This happened only a couple of weeks back, I ended up being late to the office, along with thousands of others. For those who don't know Melbourne, Flagstaff station is a downtown subway station. Most suicides here happen in the suburbs where it's quite easy to get onto a track, rare for a suicide to happen on one of the city stations.

At 7.30 on a weekday morning at a busy city station, there would have been quite a few witnesses on the platform as well as on the train......



Essendon - Whatever it takes......
User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
If someone feels that there is no other way out that is incredibly sad, but yes, very selfish also to jump in front of a train, but I'm thinking of primarily the driver and the clean up crew.

That's the saddest part of these incidents. There are innocent onlookers and the driver who see the event happening. Those are the ones I have sympathy for.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Well there have been some injuries which have occurred when someone else commits suicide. One of my friends was on board a train which hit someone, and when the driver hit the emergency brake, my friend fell against the wall and got a concussion. Couldn't play basketball for the rest of that season.
Also in 2011 when a woman jumped infront of the Narita Express train (google it if you don't know what it is) her body flew back into a kiosk on the platform and injured four others. But man realize that the traumatic injuries are often unrepairable.

The other problem, particularly with subways / metros is that there may be a packed train stuck in the tunnel behind. If that situation is not resolved promptly there may be additional injuries (e.g. dehydration) on that train.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 7):
Here in London there are such jumpers most weeks.

The average is about 1 per week, although some weeks there may be none and other weeks there may be several. A month or two ago there were 5 in a week. Sometimes there are 3 on the same day.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 8):

In the 2.5 years I lived in London I was stuck on underground train 3-4 times due to suicide by train, one of my flatmates for a time was a guard on the Northern Line, he reckoned every driver on the Underground had been involved in a suicide by train incident, some drivers had multiple suicides under their belts, he had been involved in one.

Some have gone decades without one, others seem to attract bad luck. Some go back to work almost instantly, others never return. It's sad when an incident like this ruins someones livelihood.

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 17):
Several years ago now I have seen a man in the last few possible seconds calmly & purposely step off the platform right in front of an oncoming train while i was heading home after college. I certainly did not think or make a problem of the fact that i was going to get home later via an excruciating detour. As i did then & still do now whenever i hear of something like this happening my only thought is how sad it is that another human being just like us was so down & out that he or she could only see suicide as a way out.

As part of my job I manage and investigate incidents like this. It is incredible what some people do. There was one - I won't go into details as it was a particularly nasty one - but they must have been in a really bad place to have the guts to do what they did. They must have been desperate.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 27):
This is only possible in a "new build" system that uses a standard train design.
Older systems that have varying car designs and platfoms that serve multiple train systems can't be fitted this way.

It can be done on older systems provided there is standard stock. The problem is that the doors are heavy and expensive which in places would require expensive platform strengthening. Also, a lot of older platforms are curved which means more bespoke doors would be needed which adds to cost.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

Let me point out that while I write, there has been a suicide every day this week, except for today (Sunday) and Wednesday. I again almost did not make it back home when I was coming back from the sky tree. I was on a subway which continues onto normal railway tracks, where someone committed suicide, and we, about 20 stations back, were stuck. Again. I got out and wandered about the platform and ran into some other ex-pats who were rather confused and pissed off. They had no idea how to get back to their hotel. The trains only run so late and they were staying in Yokohama. I helped them find a different station about 3km away (they had to walk there) and then to catch a different subway to Shibuya (which I joined them on) and then they took a separate train back to Yokohama. They caught the last train of the night.

Tell me again how my views are being selfish.

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
Looking for validation in numbers?

I don't need to provide "numbers" here as this is a general viewpoint. I was discussing this with friends all week and they all agree that it's a major deal.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
Why can't public suicides be part of the "natural order of things"?

I personally think death should be a private affair. It's tragic enough when someone dies, especially when it's early. Why make it public and involve people who have their own lives?

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 43):
That's the Japanese attitude toward most things that are too difficult/emotional to deal with. If something is too めんどくさい (a catch-all phrase for bothersome things), most people here are happy to just look the other way. If there is any real weak point to this society, that's one of them.

Yeah I agree. This is the issue, especially when I discuss this with friends. People always say it's "Mendokusai" but do nothing to alleviate this.

I have a penchant feeling that if this was a major thing back in the 20s or so there would be "campaigns" to fix this. Why not now? Japanese society seems to be "slowing" down a bit.

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 43):
It absolutely would. But in a culture and language system with feudal roots, there remains a stark contrast to the needle-in-a-haystack-in-a-metropolis lifestyles of many young people here.

Yet still with these youth they refuse to partake in something like this. Interestingly enough in the countryside whenever I visit everyone stops and says "konnichiwa" to eachother, even if they are strangers. It was a very refreshing experience, especially given the beauty of Oku-tama.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10029 posts, RR: 26
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2307 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
Tell me again how my views are being selfish.

Will do. If someone committed a public suicide like this, that probably means they needed some serious help. Help that (apparently, from what I'm reading here) isn't exactly readily available, or even really accepted is being needed, in Japanese culture.

When it gets to the point of feeling the need to commit a public suicide, something likely went wrong years earlier, and the perpetrator/victim likely did not get the help he/she needed. Said person most likely did not get up this morning, think "I'm gonna go inconvenience a few hundred thousand travelers today", and jump in front of a train.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
I personally think death should be a private affair. It's tragic enough when someone dies, especially when it's early. Why make it public and involve people who have their own lives?

Death usually is a private affair. The majority of people keep it that way. That's why there is likely something very wrong when someone makes it public.

I'll quote what I said before:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36):
Again, I think it's a societal thing, and I'd wager that the very fact that people are more annoyed by it than anything is probably a factor, knowingly or unknowingly, in causing this type of suicide to happen.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently onlinemelpax From Australia, joined Apr 2005, 1620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 45):
Some have gone decades without one, others seem to attract bad luck. Some go back to work almost instantly, others never return. It's sad when an incident like this ruins someones livelihood.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I have heard that train drivers on the Melbourne system get an automatic 8 weeks off if they hit someone. They'd be tied up for quite a while with the resulting investigations anyway. The drivers do make good money here (generally 6 figures once fully qualified, with OT & shift penalties), most drivers would regard this as one of the hazards of the job.



Essendon - Whatever it takes......
User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 47):
When it gets to the point of feeling the need to commit a public suicide, something likely went wrong years earlier, and the perpetrator/victim likely did not get the help he/she needed. Said person most likely did not get up this morning, think "I'm gonna go inconvenience a few hundred thousand travelers today", and jump in front of a train.

I believe the vast majority of the research indicates that it is a last minute decision. In some cases they may even enter the station with no intention of killing themselves, and then something will suddenly change. Of course there are others which are planned.

Quoting melpax (Reply 48):

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 45):
Some have gone decades without one, others seem to attract bad luck. Some go back to work almost instantly, others never return. It's sad when an incident like this ruins someones livelihood.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I have heard that train drivers on the Melbourne system get an automatic 8 weeks off if they hit someone. They'd be tied up for quite a while with the resulting investigations anyway. The drivers do make good money here (generally 6 figures once fully qualified, with OT & shift penalties), most drivers would regard this as one of the hazards of the job.

That is certainly possible. 2-3 months seems to be the normal recovery time from such an incident during which the driver may attend counselling. They would normally return and ride through in the cab not driving for a while, normally doing shorter shifts, and then gradually build themselves up to doing longer shifts and taking over driving again. Again, everyone is different. Some are quite traumatised by the experience, others see it as an occupational hazard and return relatively quickly.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
I again almost did not make it back home when I was coming back from the sky tree. I was on a subway which continues onto normal railway tracks, where someone committed suicide, and we, about 20 stations back, were stuck. Again. I got out and wandered about the platform and ran into some other ex-pats who were rather confused and pissed off.

You're lucky you were in a platform and could leave. In the past 2 years I've been stuck on a train in the middle of nowhere twice. On the first occasion we were right behind the incident train and had to sit for two and a half hours - most of it in complete darkness because the electricity was cut and the back up batteries only last about 30 mins. On the second occasion we were outside of the current section so we still had the lights on, but we were there for nearly 2hrs. Ultimately there is no point getting angry about it as once someone has jumped there is nothing you can do apart from wait until the Emergency Services and Railwaymen have cleared up.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
about 20 stations back, were stuck

I'm surprised why - being that far back - the Controllers didn't start getting the drivers to change ends, shunt across a set of points and head back the other way in service. Do Japanese Metros not have many reversing points?


Just out of curiosity, everyone here mentions "suicide" when we should perhaps be saying "attempted suicide". From my experience a significant proportion of the time they fail. Sometimes - once recovered from under the train - they walk out of the station (in Police hands). Other times they suffer horrific injuries but are still alive.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2178 times:

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 49):
I'm surprised why - being that far back - the Controllers didn't start getting the drivers to change ends, shunt across a set of points and head back the other way in service. Do Japanese Metros not have many reversing points?

Yeah I'm not an expert but there are very few shunting points and on subways its difficult to switch to the right side of the tracks (they operate on the left, british style, here in JP), unless you reach a terminus station or a depot area. Trains generally are not allowed to go towards the depot area with pax on board, so in order to switch sides they'd need to be going back towards the terminus stations, which is impossible if multiple trains are on a line. Also most train lines continue above ground on different train lines, which makes it all the more complicated.
JR Lines, when this problem occurs, typically leaves the damaged train at its point on the station and is usually able to use a switch to route the other train to a different platform, if available. This happened once to me, when a suicide occurred at the station I used to live by. Coming home, they had to delay the trains till it was all cleared up completely and the train was repaired enough to return to the depot, and until then, they had to shuttle each train-inbound and outbound trains- onto one platform (the outbound platform was used) which tied up a lot of services.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 49):
Just out of curiosity, everyone here mentions "suicide" when we should perhaps be saying "attempted suicide". From my experience a significant proportion of the time they fail. Sometimes - once recovered from under the train - they walk out of the station (in Police hands). Other times they suffer horrific injuries but are still alive.

Well with one exception that I remember, all have resulted in death, according to the news.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 47):
Will do. If someone committed a public suicide like this, that probably means they needed some serious help. Help that (apparently, from what I'm reading here) isn't exactly readily available, or even really accepted is being needed, in Japanese culture.

Not sure if you accused me of being selfish, or proved my point that this is a drastic societal issue.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
Not sure if you accused me of being selfish, or proved my point that this is a drastic societal issue.

Either way, still better than the ridiculous celebrity copycat suicides in Korea:

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/..._dir/2013/01/09/2013010901227.html



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2108 times:

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 51):
Either way, still better than the ridiculous celebrity copycat suicides in Korea:

Yeah I've heard of this from my friend who has a masters in Korean studies....I'm quoting her as saying "Koreans are way too nuts over these celebs....it makes idol otaku in Japan look like actual humans."

She's pretty harsh 



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10029 posts, RR: 26
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2091 times:
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Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 49):

I believe the vast majority of the research indicates that it is a last minute decision.

That may be true. But I doubt that there was nothing previous to said decision that enabled the mental state in which they chose suicide.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 50):
Not sure if you accused me of being selfish, or proved my point that this is a drastic societal issue.

Both? I already acknowledged that it's a drastic societal issue. But given that, I think it's rather selfish to be so pissed off that it troubles your commute.

If it wasn't a drastic societal issue, I'd be more understanding of it, though I'd probably still think it's a selfish view.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25260 posts, RR: 85
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2019 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
I don't need to provide "numbers" here as this is a general viewpoint. I was discussing this with friends all week and they all agree that it's a major deal.

If everyone you know agrees with you, then I don't see it as "controversial" as you claimed.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
I appreciate the input guys, even despite my apparent controversial views on this subject.

What might be more controversial could be a debate as to why this is happening in such apparent numbers, rather than any inconvenience it causes you.

That debate appears to be happening, or at least starting, about the apparent rise in US military suicides, for example:

http://theweek.com/article/index/244...us-militarys-climbing-suicide-rate

"What's behind the U.S. military's climbing suicide rate?"

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 54):
That debate appears to be happening, or at least starting, about the apparent rise in US military suicides, for example:

This discussion has been going on for years, at least within the military. I've been bombarded by it over the last few years, but on the positive side, it has changed my view on it all and I understand it better (as far as it being a true change in mental state so saying they're selfish misses the mark.) They also taught us how to talk to people about it, so who knows how many people we've saved just by the awareness



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25260 posts, RR: 85
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1951 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 55):
This discussion has been going on for years, at least within the military. I've been bombarded by it over the last few years, but on the positive side, it has changed my view on it all and I understand it better (as far as it being a true change in mental state so saying they're selfish misses the mark.)

I am very pleased to hear that. My point was really that the debate seems to be spreading beyond the military into the wider community.

Maybe I am just more conscious of it, but - it seems to me - to be an essential debate.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 57, posted (1 year 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 56):
Maybe I am just more conscious of it, but - it seems to me - to be an essential debate.

It is indeed, and I think the love of our military in the US has helped spread the debate within our country. I do not believe in servicemember worship though I can see why many are appreciative, but my point is, with all these servicemembers committing suicide, suicide isn't really seen as a way out for the weak and the selfish since most Americans see those in the military as very brave and strong. If people that risk their lives and can handle bullets flying at them ultimately commit suicide, maybe being strong and courageous has nothing to do with it. And that has helped lead to where we are today.

I can understand where PHX787 is coming from... I don't think he's talking about suicide being weak or greedy (am I right, PHX787?) but he says instead of committing suicide in private, why inconvenience everyone else? I'd counter that you should remember that the same irrationality leading someone to commit suicide can lead them to do anything else irrational, but I do not believe he was trying to be disrespectful. I can also see how he can be upset and feel inconvenienced even if he ultimately feels for the guy (I believe, do not want to speak for him)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
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