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TK And Islam  
User currently offlinechannelhopper From Bouvet Island, joined Dec 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11667 times:

The Sunday Times in London reported this week that TK has banned flight attendants with bleached hair, and also the serving of alcohol in Economy.
This follows the unsuccessful attempt by the influential ''Muslim bourgeoisie'' to ban flight attendants from wearing red lipstick.
This all seems a little far fetched, but the Sunday Times is a respected newspaper, so perhaps someone can shed some light on this?

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5579 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11656 times:

I can't comment on this specific situation, but:

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):
serving of alcohol in Economy

Sounds to me like costcutting, rather than religious considerations (if this is true, which I doubt). If there were legitimate religious grounds then they would apply equally in J as Y. I fully respect the right of SV, KU, BI etc to not serve alcohol due to religious considerations, but they apply their policy equally across all cabins.

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):
flight attendants with bleached hair

As for this, it sounds like the lipstick issue, and the consensus on here that it was more about staff grooming than religion.

To be brutally honest, I believe that the "Islamization" of Turkey is overstated by Western media.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11595 times:

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):

The Sunday Times in London reported this week that TK has banned flight attendants with bleached hair, and also the serving of alcohol in Economy.
This follows the unsuccessful attempt by the influential ''Muslim bourgeoisie'' to ban flight attendants from wearing red lipstick.
This all seems a little far fetched, but the Sunday Times is a respected newspaper, so perhaps someone can shed some light on this?

Somewhat biased journalism.

First of all, TK did not serve alcohol in economy on domestic sectors, only business, and this has been eliminated on sectors within Turkey. Alcohol is still available in economy on int'l sectors, as well as business.

Secondly, dress code for FAs is nothing new, and unlike diners or night clubs, bleached hair or lipstick with glitter doesn't go well with the rather modest image a flag carrier airline aims to reflect. OTOH, lipstick in pastel colors is in fact mandatory, rather than being banned. FAs cannot choose to not wear lipstick indeed.

There is a schism in TK management regarding Muslim values and global values, that is true, but for now that hasn't really shown up in the cabin.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4784 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11541 times:

well Arabian Business is reporting that the current TK CEO is in hot water big time

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/turki...oubt-amid-lipstick-ban-501409.html

Suspended Turkish Airlines CEO Temel Kotil’s future with the Turkish flag carrier hangs in the balance as the airline’s board meets to decide his fate, just days after scrapping a controversial ban on female flight attendants wearing red lipstick and nail polish and which he blamed on junior executives.

The airline’s board will decide on Kotil’s fate when it convenes on Tuesday morning, sources told the Bloomberg news agency. The move comes just days after he was stripped of his duties after a disagreement with company chairman Hamdi Topcu, Turkish newspaper Milliyet reported on Sunday.

The CEO’s suspension is believed to have been triggered by an embarrassing u-turn on a decision to ban female flight attendants wearing red lipstick or nail varnish, as well as disagreements over the timeline for plane orders and the handling of a strike which led to over 305 staff being fired, Milliyet claimed.

In Friday, Kotil moved to quash a controversial ban on female flight attendants wearing red lipstick and nail polish, after an outcry by secular Turks worried the country is becoming too Islamic.

The national carrier had said in a statement this month the use of red and dark pink lipstick and nail polish would impair the "visual integrity" of its staff. However, Kotil told Reuters the order was made by over-zealous junior managers who did not consult senior bosses about the initiative.

"As to the lipstick, we had no problems but somehow low-level managers put together a paper without asking us and that paper leaked to the media and became a big issue," Kotil told reporters in London.

Asked whether there was a ban, he said "no", and confirmed female staff could wear lipstick and nail polish of any colour.

"As you know, some in Turkey are a little bit keen about these issues," said the fast-talking, US-educated Kotil, who has served as chief executive since 2005. "We are a great global carrier and we know what we are doing."

In a presentation, Kotil forecast operating revenue would rise to $9.749 billion in 2013 from $8.318 billion last year. No net income guidance was given. A decade ago in 2003, operating revenue was $1.898 billion.

The airline, which says it flies to more countries than any other carrier, aims to increase passenger numbers to 46 million this year from 39 million last.

Aviation union Hava-Is has threatened to strike this month over pay but Kotil was optimistic such action could be averted.

"We love the union, we love our employees... and hopefully we can find a solution," he said.

Turkish Airlines has not yet publically commented on Kotil suspension or future role with the airline.


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11456 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 3):
We love the union

LOL. that's a first!



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11237 times:

I think the topic title should be changed, I bet El Al and Judism would be deleted or changed if started in regards to the sbbath day off.

Also issue discussed in TK av thread and a seprate one, now they are out to malign TK because they are threatening Europaen carriers, its seeming like an agenda, thisi will keep coming up.

Would anyone care if airlines like Lufthansa or JAL had issued such grooming orders.

[Edited 2013-05-14 02:33:59]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26997 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10825 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):

Why its a valid topic and one that is actually being discussed in wider Turkish society. EL AL and religion are quite linked so feel free to set up a topic.

As for other airlines LH have a very multi cultural and multi faith employee base and rarely do these issues arise. When they do there is a huge debate ! Remember the BA Christian cross issue?

Censorship is worse than having an in depth debate !!


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10749 times:

It sounds more like a case of bad management than anything else on this occasion.

Blaming junior managers for this is comical, as either that shows that the company is being run by people making their own agenda or that management have made the decision, seen the reaction and decided to blame others. Either way is bad.

TK have grown so fast over the last decade and along with this comes a need to review their ops and make sure that management control is still in place.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10681 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):

Its been discussed before did you not read those posts and topic? and I don't recall the BA topic being titiled BA and Christianity or was it?


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10294 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):

It it was simple cost cutting, then they just charge for alcohol.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10235 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
I think the topic title should be changed, I bet El Al and Judism would be deleted or changed if started in regards to the sbbath day off.

There you'd be wrong. A simple search brings up a title which combines El Al with religion:

Divinewrath Strikes Shabbat-breaking El Al, Say R (by El Al 001 Dec 5 2006 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10096 times:

^ I meant topic title as stated in the example in my post.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10039 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
I meant topic title as stated in the example in my post.

Another example:

El Al & Shabbat (by El Al 001 Jul 8 2000 in Civil Aviation)

Just because no one's made a topic named exactly "El Al & Judaism" in the past, doesn't mean it would be disallowed.

Regardless, the proper place to debate topic-naming issues is with the moderators in e-mail, not in the thread.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
Also issue discussed in TK av thread and a seprate one, now they are out to malign TK because they are threatening Europaen carriers, its seeming like an agenda, thisi will keep coming up.

No need for TK to threaten European carriers. European carriers are being maimed by their own governments.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 7):
It sounds more like a case of bad management than anything else on this occasion.

Exactly my thought. Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10005 times:

Airlines have gotten media attention over religion and grooming regulations before.

BA versus Nadia Eweida.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-discrimination-silver-cross.html


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9978 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):

another useless example Shabbat, Saturday, Friday, Sunday, vs christianity, judism, islam in title, no comparison to this one ridiculous that an av forum is allowing it.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go.

and them scrambling to fly everywhere possible is what?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
As for other airlines LH have a very multi cultural and multi faith employee base and rarely do these issues arise.

grooming standards have nothing to do with religion or multicultralism, LH could impose these standards on their crew but I guess it would not bother anyone.

Also Egypt Air cabin crew demanded they be allowed to war hijab, and won, howcome that hasn't ruffled any feathers and everyone is on TK's case.

[Edited 2013-05-14 07:29:59]

User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 588 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9684 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
Also Egypt Air cabin crew demanded they be allowed to war hijab, and won, howcome that hasn't ruffled any feathers and everyone is on TK's case.

Turkey is far more secular than Egypt, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Turkey has a powerful elite that is very pro-secular - Egypt not so much.

I agree the thread title is a little misleading perhaps - but it's not entirely off the mark either. These are real issues with TK - if they're going to keep growing like gangbusters they have to tackle these internal issues at some point.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9381 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9423 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
LH could impose these standards on their crew but I guess it would not bother anyone.

LH does indeed demand a certain standard from their cabin attendants and of course all other personell. However, this isw in no way influenced by religion. All so called "western countries" are secular. Religion does not interfere and that is the difference.

When BA does not want their staff to wear religious symbols than is that a company decision.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 596 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8832 times:

Provided they keep the good stuff coming, and free, in Y class, this is a non-issue.

However, if they don't, then their proposed and current massive expansion is likely to be hit, and hit hard.

Not because no one can bear a flight without booze, but rather there are plentiful other options (I don't need to name them I'm sure) and pax, especially from western cultures, are likely to be put off flying an airline perceived to be 'Islamic' rather than Turkish. EY/EK/QR don't have an issue with serving alcohol to all, so why should TK? It will hurt them if they don't.

Yes there are airlines where, for many many years, this has been the same. Saudia and Kuwait spring to mind. But look at the size of their operations by comparison, and their main markets. This will not go down well with many of the flying public.

Don't spoil it for yourselves now TK. Worrying to see them becoming so religion-led in such modern times too.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7866 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):

What difference does it make whether grooming standards are determined by a bunch of old German men with secular beliefs or old Turkish men with religious beliefs? Secularism is as ideological and dogmatic as any religion (as is apparent in the BA case).

The BA case, IMHO, is much more serious, since i take freedom of religion far more seriously than the freedom to drink alcohol or wear make up. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that if TK had banned an FA from wearing a cross, it would lead to a lot of self-righteous criticism from the same lot who turn a blind eye towards European companies.

I suppose the real question is: what makes the imposition of rules based on secular ideals more acceptable than rules based on religious ideals? Apart from the implicit reliance on the national origin of those ideas?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9381 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6844 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 19):
What difference does it make whether grooming standards are determined by a bunch of old German men

If you know the history of that company a bit you will find that these standards have been developed by middle age ladies on the grounds of good manners already in the 1950s and FA training is based on that legacy. Always catching up with the times of course

German DAX listed companies and most others are based on tolerance and equal opportunity employment. Religion does not take a part there and I do not see secularism as an ideologie. Rather so that religion does not have a place in a company as a person's belief is her/his private matter. That is an ideal rather than an ideology.

What BA did, banning crosses or stars of david is an act of intolerance, advancing obedience to those who might be offended. Wrong policy.

Back to TK, it looks a bit like a storm in a tea cup. Kotil is back in office but thy have to watch it. if they want to keep up their pace of expansion they must stay attractive to all.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5834 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
If you know the history of that company a bit you will find that these standards have been developed by middle age ladies on the grounds of good manners already in the 1950s and FA training is based on that legacy.

Either which way, TK FAs aren't being told how to behave nor are their manners changing. The two big bones of contention here are:

1) Make-up/lipstick/dyed hair - These have no impact on how the crew conduct themselves. Many employers have codes on this - how many private financial institutions will tolerate a worker coming into work wearing Goth makeup? Personally, I don't see an issue with this, since it appears to be aimed more at uniformity, as well as a nod to the cultural norms of Turkey.

I will acknowledge that Turkish cultural norms are being revised to incorporate more religion after a well-intentioned (IMHO) but poorly implemented secularism that overreached by infringing on Turkish cultural identity. Like others, I question the notion that this is about "Islam". This is more likely about Turkish cultural idenitty, that draws to some degree from Islam (but which also draws from Ataturkian secularism). To put it in perspective, 9W and AI don't serve beef out of deference to Hindu norms. Yet they are perfectly secular carriers - one state-owned, one private - in one of the more religiously diverse countries in the world.

2) Alcohol on 'some' routes: Its not abnormal for airlines to not serve alcohol on certain flights. IIRC, Indian airlines are not allowed to serve alchohol on domestic flights. If TK decides to stop serving alchohol on certain routes, what does that have to do with religion? It may simply be down to traffic on that route not being particularly keen on alchohol. Now, if they expand it system-wide, then you have a point, but unless I'm mistaken, they haven't made any announcement to that effect.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
German DAX listed companies and most others are based on tolerance and equal opportunity employment.

Has TK announced that it won't be hiring non-Muslim FAs? Or that it won't be carrying non-Muslim pax?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Religion does not take a part there and I do not see secularism as an ideologie.

Look south towards France. Secularism has become an ideology. Turkish secularism was similar - replace "God" with "No God" and apply new rules that put restrictions on how people can express their religion. That is what prompted the backlash that this religion-leaning government in Turkey rode to power. Cultural identity is difficult to alter - pulling out ingredients from it and hoping the people will let it go only works under brutal authoritarian regimes a la North Korea, the Soviet Union or Maoist China (note how Buddhism has risen - think Falun Gong - as the state became more liberal). Turkey could not erase religion out of its history, its narratives, its myths and other things that inform national identity. Hence the resurgence. Its temporary - like any wave it will lose its steam once its reached its peak.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Rather so that religion does not have a place in a company as a person's belief is her/his private matter.

If a company serves customers directly, it has to make an effort to cater to their preferences. TK is a Turkish airline that has to take Turkish sensibilities into account. Just as Indian airlines take Indian sensibilities into account.

Suffice it to say, I see this as a sideshow by politicians who are heavily invested in bringing the religious aspects of Turkish culture to the fore. That said, I don't think it is going to lead to the Wahabbi-isation of the carrier. As is always the case in these issues, you'll see a little give, a little take, and some hollow cries of victory sooner or later. I don't anticipate any major change in TK FAs behavior or professionalism.


User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

I think many people here are overreacting. Religion or not, TK is a company, and they are allowed to sell what they want to customers and not sell what they do not want. As for lipstick, they are still allowed to have rules on how their employees can and cannot dress, can they not? It's really that different from a financial firm imposing that its employees come to work in suits and ties rather than sweatpants and tank tops—it's just that people make a fuss whenever religion, specifically the perceived Islamization of Turkey, is mentioned.

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5594 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):

LH does indeed demand a certain standard from their cabin attendants and of course all other personell. However, this isw in no way influenced by religion. All so called "western countries" are secular. Religion does not interfere and that is the difference.

When BA does not want their staff to wear religious symbols than is that a company decision.

same in TK situation, company decisions not influenced by religion.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25332 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5312 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 21):
Has TK announced that it won't be hiring non-Muslim FAs?

Does TK hire foreign cabin crew? If not, it's unlikely they would have many non-Muslim FA's anyway since the population of Turkey is close to 99% Muslim, a much higher percentage than most other predominantly Muslim countries.


25 ElPistolero : Pretty sure I saw an Indian F/A on one of my flights out of DEL. That aside, my last Toronto - IST flight (end-March) did have a Canadian/US Captain
26 aryonoco : So let me get this straight: The guy has been the CEO of TK since 2005, has overseen MASSIVE expansion of TK across the world, has turned this once jo
27 Istanbuler83 : The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks. The government i
28 twincessna340a : TK is a business which has rules that stem from its culture, just like every other. Why is this a thread again? Secular/Secularity can't be an -ism, i
29 ElPistolero : This is, indeed, alarming. One is much better off under a secular government, insofar as reason is not subject to the whims of faith. At the same tim
30 Centre : And the point of this thread is....????
31 RyanairGuru : I was thinking about what I wrote overnight, and I should definitely been more nuanced. I fully recognise that Islamisation is a very real force in T
32 777way : Some Turks look extremely Indian its uncanny. don't you this topic title reflects same intent?
33 OA260 : Thats exactly what my Turkish friends say and indeed fear. Their view on the recent changes at TK is very much to do with religion and a power strugg
35 TK105 : I certainly agree with you. But for a better understanding, I would like to make a short summary for what has changed during the last years. I also i
36 Post contains images lightsaber : Why don't they charge? Which, IMHO, has impacted their business growth. e.g,. EK has used alcohol to attract customers and based on my travel, a good
37 ElPistolero : It's not that we aren't aware of what's going on in Turkey. Most of us are quite aware of the intricacies of the political situation. However, we are
38 OA260 : Thats something I was not aware of and is kind of short sighted on TK's part if it is indeed policy. Whats the thinking behind that? Well I dont see
39 AM744 : Hopefully not. What if they don't want to and start becoming harassed in the workplace? Looks like they are becoming more resticted on their choices.
40 TK105 : I think TK management considers badges as a political statement.
41 ElPistolero : Censor? I think one needs to draw a line between the political happenings in Turkey and the impact on TK. Conflating the two serves no purpose. The g
42 leftyboarder : There is alcohol in Y on European flights. Just domestic Y, which NEVER had alcohol. It is domestic C that got cut off recently.
43 TK105 : If I'm not mistaken, for domestic Y, TK used to serve wine and beer, as well as distribute newspapers back in 90s. However after the economical issue
44 leftyboarder : You are right, I stand corrected on that. But by no means, this is a recent cut, nor is it unique in aviation world.
45 incitatus : Considering some of the peanut-sized fares TK offers, their huge list of destinations is a vanity project.
46 ElPistolero : They don't seem to be doing too badly financially. A profitable vanity project?
47 777way : Thats irrelevant, you said "Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go." the point is they are doing just that, flying people
48 PanHAM : what does "and more" mean? Flying people where they don't want to g? Fact is, TK is an ambitious government project which is more than needed infrast
49 777way : Poster said something factually incorrect and got defensive when appropriately answered, bringing in unrelated things to justify what he said are you'
50 PanHAM : If that is so, that business model is not sustainable. When someone offers 20% or more interest p.a. or has growth rates in that region, the alarm be
51 777way : Did you read the post I had responded to? he said TK are not flying people where they need to go.
52 Post contains images ElPistolero : What do you mean by "more than needed"? That Turkey has really needed TK for a long time and its about time its happened? Or that Turkey doesn't "nee
53 Aesma : You can wear anything in public, well not cover your face since recently. The limit is on public servants and children at public schools. At universi
54 TK105 : Let me translate for you what PanHAM says: Turkey is a 3rd World Country. TK should not expand more than like-lies of AI, PK, MS. TK should basically
55 ElPistolero : Depends on the model of secularism you adopt.. Indian law does accommodate other religious beliefs. France takes it to an extreme by being punitive a
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