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TK And Islam  
User currently offlinechannelhopper From Bouvet Island, joined Dec 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11639 times:

The Sunday Times in London reported this week that TK has banned flight attendants with bleached hair, and also the serving of alcohol in Economy.
This follows the unsuccessful attempt by the influential ''Muslim bourgeoisie'' to ban flight attendants from wearing red lipstick.
This all seems a little far fetched, but the Sunday Times is a respected newspaper, so perhaps someone can shed some light on this?

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11628 times:

I can't comment on this specific situation, but:

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):
serving of alcohol in Economy

Sounds to me like costcutting, rather than religious considerations (if this is true, which I doubt). If there were legitimate religious grounds then they would apply equally in J as Y. I fully respect the right of SV, KU, BI etc to not serve alcohol due to religious considerations, but they apply their policy equally across all cabins.

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):
flight attendants with bleached hair

As for this, it sounds like the lipstick issue, and the consensus on here that it was more about staff grooming than religion.

To be brutally honest, I believe that the "Islamization" of Turkey is overstated by Western media.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11567 times:

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):

The Sunday Times in London reported this week that TK has banned flight attendants with bleached hair, and also the serving of alcohol in Economy.
This follows the unsuccessful attempt by the influential ''Muslim bourgeoisie'' to ban flight attendants from wearing red lipstick.
This all seems a little far fetched, but the Sunday Times is a respected newspaper, so perhaps someone can shed some light on this?

Somewhat biased journalism.

First of all, TK did not serve alcohol in economy on domestic sectors, only business, and this has been eliminated on sectors within Turkey. Alcohol is still available in economy on int'l sectors, as well as business.

Secondly, dress code for FAs is nothing new, and unlike diners or night clubs, bleached hair or lipstick with glitter doesn't go well with the rather modest image a flag carrier airline aims to reflect. OTOH, lipstick in pastel colors is in fact mandatory, rather than being banned. FAs cannot choose to not wear lipstick indeed.

There is a schism in TK management regarding Muslim values and global values, that is true, but for now that hasn't really shown up in the cabin.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 4756 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11513 times:

well Arabian Business is reporting that the current TK CEO is in hot water big time

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/turki...oubt-amid-lipstick-ban-501409.html

Suspended Turkish Airlines CEO Temel Kotil’s future with the Turkish flag carrier hangs in the balance as the airline’s board meets to decide his fate, just days after scrapping a controversial ban on female flight attendants wearing red lipstick and nail polish and which he blamed on junior executives.

The airline’s board will decide on Kotil’s fate when it convenes on Tuesday morning, sources told the Bloomberg news agency. The move comes just days after he was stripped of his duties after a disagreement with company chairman Hamdi Topcu, Turkish newspaper Milliyet reported on Sunday.

The CEO’s suspension is believed to have been triggered by an embarrassing u-turn on a decision to ban female flight attendants wearing red lipstick or nail varnish, as well as disagreements over the timeline for plane orders and the handling of a strike which led to over 305 staff being fired, Milliyet claimed.

In Friday, Kotil moved to quash a controversial ban on female flight attendants wearing red lipstick and nail polish, after an outcry by secular Turks worried the country is becoming too Islamic.

The national carrier had said in a statement this month the use of red and dark pink lipstick and nail polish would impair the "visual integrity" of its staff. However, Kotil told Reuters the order was made by over-zealous junior managers who did not consult senior bosses about the initiative.

"As to the lipstick, we had no problems but somehow low-level managers put together a paper without asking us and that paper leaked to the media and became a big issue," Kotil told reporters in London.

Asked whether there was a ban, he said "no", and confirmed female staff could wear lipstick and nail polish of any colour.

"As you know, some in Turkey are a little bit keen about these issues," said the fast-talking, US-educated Kotil, who has served as chief executive since 2005. "We are a great global carrier and we know what we are doing."

In a presentation, Kotil forecast operating revenue would rise to $9.749 billion in 2013 from $8.318 billion last year. No net income guidance was given. A decade ago in 2003, operating revenue was $1.898 billion.

The airline, which says it flies to more countries than any other carrier, aims to increase passenger numbers to 46 million this year from 39 million last.

Aviation union Hava-Is has threatened to strike this month over pay but Kotil was optimistic such action could be averted.

"We love the union, we love our employees... and hopefully we can find a solution," he said.

Turkish Airlines has not yet publically commented on Kotil suspension or future role with the airline.


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11428 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 3):
We love the union

LOL. that's a first!



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11209 times:

I think the topic title should be changed, I bet El Al and Judism would be deleted or changed if started in regards to the sbbath day off.

Also issue discussed in TK av thread and a seprate one, now they are out to malign TK because they are threatening Europaen carriers, its seeming like an agenda, thisi will keep coming up.

Would anyone care if airlines like Lufthansa or JAL had issued such grooming orders.

[Edited 2013-05-14 02:33:59]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26860 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10797 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):

Why its a valid topic and one that is actually being discussed in wider Turkish society. EL AL and religion are quite linked so feel free to set up a topic.

As for other airlines LH have a very multi cultural and multi faith employee base and rarely do these issues arise. When they do there is a huge debate ! Remember the BA Christian cross issue?

Censorship is worse than having an in depth debate !!


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10721 times:

It sounds more like a case of bad management than anything else on this occasion.

Blaming junior managers for this is comical, as either that shows that the company is being run by people making their own agenda or that management have made the decision, seen the reaction and decided to blame others. Either way is bad.

TK have grown so fast over the last decade and along with this comes a need to review their ops and make sure that management control is still in place.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10653 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):

Its been discussed before did you not read those posts and topic? and I don't recall the BA topic being titiled BA and Christianity or was it?


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1648 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 10266 times:
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Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):

It it was simple cost cutting, then they just charge for alcohol.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 10207 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
I think the topic title should be changed, I bet El Al and Judism would be deleted or changed if started in regards to the sbbath day off.

There you'd be wrong. A simple search brings up a title which combines El Al with religion:

Divinewrath Strikes Shabbat-breaking El Al, Say R (by El Al 001 Dec 5 2006 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10068 times:

^ I meant topic title as stated in the example in my post.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10011 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
I meant topic title as stated in the example in my post.

Another example:

El Al & Shabbat (by El Al 001 Jul 8 2000 in Civil Aviation)

Just because no one's made a topic named exactly "El Al & Judaism" in the past, doesn't mean it would be disallowed.

Regardless, the proper place to debate topic-naming issues is with the moderators in e-mail, not in the thread.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4003 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9995 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
Also issue discussed in TK av thread and a seprate one, now they are out to malign TK because they are threatening Europaen carriers, its seeming like an agenda, thisi will keep coming up.

No need for TK to threaten European carriers. European carriers are being maimed by their own governments.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 7):
It sounds more like a case of bad management than anything else on this occasion.

Exactly my thought. Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go.


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9977 times:

Airlines have gotten media attention over religion and grooming regulations before.

BA versus Nadia Eweida.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-discrimination-silver-cross.html


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9950 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):

another useless example Shabbat, Saturday, Friday, Sunday, vs christianity, judism, islam in title, no comparison to this one ridiculous that an av forum is allowing it.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go.

and them scrambling to fly everywhere possible is what?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
As for other airlines LH have a very multi cultural and multi faith employee base and rarely do these issues arise.

grooming standards have nothing to do with religion or multicultralism, LH could impose these standards on their crew but I guess it would not bother anyone.

Also Egypt Air cabin crew demanded they be allowed to war hijab, and won, howcome that hasn't ruffled any feathers and everyone is on TK's case.

[Edited 2013-05-14 07:29:59]

User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9656 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
Also Egypt Air cabin crew demanded they be allowed to war hijab, and won, howcome that hasn't ruffled any feathers and everyone is on TK's case.

Turkey is far more secular than Egypt, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Turkey has a powerful elite that is very pro-secular - Egypt not so much.

I agree the thread title is a little misleading perhaps - but it's not entirely off the mark either. These are real issues with TK - if they're going to keep growing like gangbusters they have to tackle these internal issues at some point.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9173 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9395 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
LH could impose these standards on their crew but I guess it would not bother anyone.

LH does indeed demand a certain standard from their cabin attendants and of course all other personell. However, this isw in no way influenced by religion. All so called "western countries" are secular. Religion does not interfere and that is the difference.

When BA does not want their staff to wear religious symbols than is that a company decision.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 589 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8804 times:

Provided they keep the good stuff coming, and free, in Y class, this is a non-issue.

However, if they don't, then their proposed and current massive expansion is likely to be hit, and hit hard.

Not because no one can bear a flight without booze, but rather there are plentiful other options (I don't need to name them I'm sure) and pax, especially from western cultures, are likely to be put off flying an airline perceived to be 'Islamic' rather than Turkish. EY/EK/QR don't have an issue with serving alcohol to all, so why should TK? It will hurt them if they don't.

Yes there are airlines where, for many many years, this has been the same. Saudia and Kuwait spring to mind. But look at the size of their operations by comparison, and their main markets. This will not go down well with many of the flying public.

Don't spoil it for yourselves now TK. Worrying to see them becoming so religion-led in such modern times too.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7838 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):

What difference does it make whether grooming standards are determined by a bunch of old German men with secular beliefs or old Turkish men with religious beliefs? Secularism is as ideological and dogmatic as any religion (as is apparent in the BA case).

The BA case, IMHO, is much more serious, since i take freedom of religion far more seriously than the freedom to drink alcohol or wear make up. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that if TK had banned an FA from wearing a cross, it would lead to a lot of self-righteous criticism from the same lot who turn a blind eye towards European companies.

I suppose the real question is: what makes the imposition of rules based on secular ideals more acceptable than rules based on religious ideals? Apart from the implicit reliance on the national origin of those ideas?


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9173 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6816 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 19):
What difference does it make whether grooming standards are determined by a bunch of old German men

If you know the history of that company a bit you will find that these standards have been developed by middle age ladies on the grounds of good manners already in the 1950s and FA training is based on that legacy. Always catching up with the times of course

German DAX listed companies and most others are based on tolerance and equal opportunity employment. Religion does not take a part there and I do not see secularism as an ideologie. Rather so that religion does not have a place in a company as a person's belief is her/his private matter. That is an ideal rather than an ideology.

What BA did, banning crosses or stars of david is an act of intolerance, advancing obedience to those who might be offended. Wrong policy.

Back to TK, it looks a bit like a storm in a tea cup. Kotil is back in office but thy have to watch it. if they want to keep up their pace of expansion they must stay attractive to all.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5806 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
If you know the history of that company a bit you will find that these standards have been developed by middle age ladies on the grounds of good manners already in the 1950s and FA training is based on that legacy.

Either which way, TK FAs aren't being told how to behave nor are their manners changing. The two big bones of contention here are:

1) Make-up/lipstick/dyed hair - These have no impact on how the crew conduct themselves. Many employers have codes on this - how many private financial institutions will tolerate a worker coming into work wearing Goth makeup? Personally, I don't see an issue with this, since it appears to be aimed more at uniformity, as well as a nod to the cultural norms of Turkey.

I will acknowledge that Turkish cultural norms are being revised to incorporate more religion after a well-intentioned (IMHO) but poorly implemented secularism that overreached by infringing on Turkish cultural identity. Like others, I question the notion that this is about "Islam". This is more likely about Turkish cultural idenitty, that draws to some degree from Islam (but which also draws from Ataturkian secularism). To put it in perspective, 9W and AI don't serve beef out of deference to Hindu norms. Yet they are perfectly secular carriers - one state-owned, one private - in one of the more religiously diverse countries in the world.

2) Alcohol on 'some' routes: Its not abnormal for airlines to not serve alcohol on certain flights. IIRC, Indian airlines are not allowed to serve alchohol on domestic flights. If TK decides to stop serving alchohol on certain routes, what does that have to do with religion? It may simply be down to traffic on that route not being particularly keen on alchohol. Now, if they expand it system-wide, then you have a point, but unless I'm mistaken, they haven't made any announcement to that effect.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
German DAX listed companies and most others are based on tolerance and equal opportunity employment.

Has TK announced that it won't be hiring non-Muslim FAs? Or that it won't be carrying non-Muslim pax?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Religion does not take a part there and I do not see secularism as an ideologie.

Look south towards France. Secularism has become an ideology. Turkish secularism was similar - replace "God" with "No God" and apply new rules that put restrictions on how people can express their religion. That is what prompted the backlash that this religion-leaning government in Turkey rode to power. Cultural identity is difficult to alter - pulling out ingredients from it and hoping the people will let it go only works under brutal authoritarian regimes a la North Korea, the Soviet Union or Maoist China (note how Buddhism has risen - think Falun Gong - as the state became more liberal). Turkey could not erase religion out of its history, its narratives, its myths and other things that inform national identity. Hence the resurgence. Its temporary - like any wave it will lose its steam once its reached its peak.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Rather so that religion does not have a place in a company as a person's belief is her/his private matter.

If a company serves customers directly, it has to make an effort to cater to their preferences. TK is a Turkish airline that has to take Turkish sensibilities into account. Just as Indian airlines take Indian sensibilities into account.

Suffice it to say, I see this as a sideshow by politicians who are heavily invested in bringing the religious aspects of Turkish culture to the fore. That said, I don't think it is going to lead to the Wahabbi-isation of the carrier. As is always the case in these issues, you'll see a little give, a little take, and some hollow cries of victory sooner or later. I don't anticipate any major change in TK FAs behavior or professionalism.


User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5672 times:

I think many people here are overreacting. Religion or not, TK is a company, and they are allowed to sell what they want to customers and not sell what they do not want. As for lipstick, they are still allowed to have rules on how their employees can and cannot dress, can they not? It's really that different from a financial firm imposing that its employees come to work in suits and ties rather than sweatpants and tank tops—it's just that people make a fuss whenever religion, specifically the perceived Islamization of Turkey, is mentioned.

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5566 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):

LH does indeed demand a certain standard from their cabin attendants and of course all other personell. However, this isw in no way influenced by religion. All so called "western countries" are secular. Religion does not interfere and that is the difference.

When BA does not want their staff to wear religious symbols than is that a company decision.

same in TK situation, company decisions not influenced by religion.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5284 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 21):
Has TK announced that it won't be hiring non-Muslim FAs?

Does TK hire foreign cabin crew? If not, it's unlikely they would have many non-Muslim FA's anyway since the population of Turkey is close to 99% Muslim, a much higher percentage than most other predominantly Muslim countries.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Does TK hire foreign cabin crew? If not, it's unlikely they would have many non-Muslim FA's anyway since the population of Turkey is close to 99% Muslim, a much higher percentage than most other predominantly Muslim countries.

Pretty sure I saw an Indian F/A on one of my flights out of DEL. That aside, my last Toronto - IST flight (end-March) did have a Canadian/US Captain or First Officer (Anglo name) doing the de-icing / pre-take off announcement.

My trips to Turkey haven't suggested a particularly conservative or religious crowd.


User currently offlinearyonoco From Australia, joined May 2012, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

So let me get this straight: The guy has been the CEO of TK since 2005, has overseen MASSIVE expansion of TK across the world, has turned this once joke of a carrier into a widely successful brand, and he's being suspended over lipstick? Really?

Now I don't really like the way he's blaming junior managers over the issue, but surely his record is good enough to survive a minor issue like this, no?

As for the title, I don't think it's necessarily misleading or wrong. However much I respect Recep Erdogan and his achievements, there is no denying that government in Turkey has become more Islamic-oriented since the AK party took power. Personally I don't have a problem with that, at the end of the day, aside from certain middle-to-upper class secular people in Istanbul and Izmir, most people of Turkey are religious and their government should rightfully reflect their views. How they go about achieving this while maintaining/advancing TK as a leading aviation carrier is an interesting question without an easy answer.


User currently offlineIstanbuler83 From Turkey, joined Nov 2009, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4713 times:

The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks. The government is now trying to ban alcohol totally from city centers and there are lots of other regulations passed through in recent years. But of course they are not honest and don't say it loud what they have actually in their mind.


Istanbuler83
User currently offlinetwincessna340a From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

TK is a business which has rules that stem from its culture, just like every other. Why is this a thread again?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 21):
Look south towards France. Secularism has become an ideology. Turkish secularism was similar - replace "God" with "No God" and apply new rules that put restrictions on how people can express their religion.

Secular/Secularity can't be an -ism, it's not a belief system...its an adjective or a state of being. All secular means is that something is independent of religious influence, religious neutrality, etc. Take the speed limit for example. That is secular, as is the belief that highways should be safe.

What you are describing is an extreme example of atheism, which is ironic because the means in which those ideals are spread is dogmatic itself; i.e. one of the main complaints atheists themselves have against existing religions. Which leads to atheism, in some contexts, to be viewed as a religion, and some people self proclaim it as their religion.

Which all means that if something is atheist, at least in the context you describe, it by definition can not be secular.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4421 times:

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 27):
The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks. The government is now trying to ban alcohol totally from city centers and there are lots of other regulations passed through in recent years.

This is, indeed, alarming. One is much better off under a secular government, insofar as reason is not subject to the whims of faith.

At the same time, Turkish secularism has always been an imposed secularism that struggled to permeate through all levels of society. As alarming as the rise of the right is, it is ultimately an indictment of the military rulers who created a vacuum. The rise of religion is often a backlash against poor rule (as we see all over the world). One can only hope that reason and common sense will overcome dogma.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 28):
lar/Secularity can't be an -ism, it's not a belief system...its an adjective or a state of being.

Secularity can be an -ism. In today's world , it is an -ism.

It doesn't just serve as an adjective or state of being if it results in the creations of rules and regulations on participation in public space. Nor am I speaking of Atheism. Atheism rejects religion. Secularism does not reject religion, but it places certain constraints on religious behaviour and expression in public spaces. Under atheism, religion is seen as fundamentally wrong. Under secularism, freedom is seen as a private funciton that does not belong in public spaces.

Classic examples of secularism - that is, rules derived from the principles of secularity (as you call it) - include the former ban on hijabs (headscarves) in Turkey. That was not an atheist law - it did not ban religion. It was a secular law - it banned a certain type of religious expression in the public square. Similar examples abound in France - for example, the state is apathetic towards Sikhism as a religion, and Sikhs are free to practice it as they wish, but they are banned from wearing turbans - a fundamental article of faith - in public (for example, they Sikhs were not allowed to enter educational establishments if they wore turbans). That's not atheism - there is no rejection of God or Gods (and Godesses) or religion. There is simply a limit on religious expression based on the principles of secularity, at which point the latter seizes to be an adjective and becomes an -ism.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for secularity. And I am not a little alarmed by the issue with TK. However, it is their airline to build. And their airline to destroy. I don't think they will let it get out of hand. There's clearly some resistance within the airline to religious influences.


User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):

And the point of this thread is....????



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 27):
The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks

I was thinking about what I wrote overnight, and I should definitely been more nuanced.

I fully recognise that Islamisation is a very real force in Turkey, and it is something which I (as a non-Turk) have no right to comment on.

What I was trying to say is that over the past couple of years, as soon as just about anything happens in Turkey the Western media jump up and down with the term "Islamisation". Rather than promoting a thought provoking, reflective, and important debate on the subject, media instead play into the hands of the unknowledgable and biggots. Just by banding around the word "Islamisation" they pander to those who respond negatively to such terms, and stoop to common-lowest-denominator populism rather than educate the public about what is happening in Turkey. On the long run that is detrimental, both to Western society and to Turkey's relationship with the West (at a socio-cultural, rather than governmental, level).

I could be well of the mark, but that is my interpretation of how our media frame stories relating to Turkey. I probably haven't explained it very well, but that's my best shot.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 25):
Pretty sure I saw an Indian F/A on one of my flights out of DEL.

Some Turks look extremely Indian its uncanny.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 31):

don't you this topic title reflects same intent?


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26860 posts, RR: 58
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2479 times:

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 27):
The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks. The government is now trying to ban alcohol totally from city centers and there are lots of other regulations passed through in recent years. But of course they are not honest and don't say it loud what they have actually in their mind.

Thats exactly what my Turkish friends say and indeed fear. Their view on the recent changes at TK is very much to do with religion and a power struggle between opposing parties. They feel that TK is being used as a tool to promote a cetain view rather than a business decision. I think thats the difference here. Unless people understand the current issues in Turkey at present its hard to understand the significance of the topic as we have seen above by some of the replies.


User currently offlineradiopolitic From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):
They feel that TK is being used as a tool to promote a cetain view rather than a business decision. I think thats the difference here. Unless people understand the current issues in Turkey at present its hard to understand the significance of the topic as we have seen above by some of the replies.

  


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):

I certainly agree with you.

But for a better understanding, I would like to make a short summary for what has changed during the last years. I also invite Turkish Aviation group to contribute further if I miss any point or make any mistake:

1. No more champaign (or alcohol in general) as a welcome drink for C passengers
2. Not serving alcohol to C passengers on certain domestic routes
3. Not serving alcohol to all passengers on certain international routes (KSA, Kuwait, Pakistan, etc)
4. Not distributing opposition newspapers on all routes
5. Lipstick and uniform issue for female F/As (also banning usage of any badge of Ataturk, Turkish Flag etc)
6. Allocating prayer rooms on all TK lounges in Turkey
7. Providing Holy Quran on AVOD System
8. Naming planes with Ottoman Palaces (previously it was only city, sea or river names)

Also DHMI (Government Airport Authority) has signed new agreements with some countries promising that flights will not have any alcoholic drinks (which I believe is against constitution).


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12905 posts, RR: 100
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2017 times:
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Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):
and also the serving of alcohol in Economy.

Why don't they charge?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):
I fully respect the right of SV, KU, BI etc to not serve alcohol due to religious considerations, but they apply their policy equally across all cabins.

Which, IMHO, has impacted their business growth. e.g,. EK has used alcohol to attract customers and based on my travel, a good fraction of frequent fliers *need* that drink.   

But I respect their decision. I now know no booze in Y on TK. For me and my kids, no big deal.

But I'm planning a trip with my old boy scout buddies to Europe (and Turkey is on the list), and for the group, no alcohol in Y takes the airline off the list of possibilities.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 28):
TK is a business which has rules that stem from its culture, just like every other. Why is this a thread again?

Because they are making decisions that westerners like to be 'free.' TK may do as they please, but I'm interested to follow. This is like an old thread on how EK mandates all FAs accept a business card if offered. There was more intense debate on that topic... But as far as I'm concerned, TK hasn't done anything wrong. It just could influence customer preferences.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2012 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):

It's not that we aren't aware of what's going on in Turkey. Most of us are quite aware of the intricacies of the political situation. However, we are wary of blowing it out of proportion and letting people use it as a stick to beat TK with (and there are folk here who jump at the opportunity).

The reality is that TK has become a national symbol and is -and will continue to be - a medium for furthering political goals. I m not surprised that TK is in the crosshairs. But beyond the larger context of Turkish politics, what does this mean for TK as an airline?

Not much, I don't think. Most of the changes are superficial - make up here, bleached hair there. The food is already halal. They'll take away alcohol? I don't think that's a gamechanger - I doubt too many pax will avoid TK because of its no alcohol policy. At the end of the day, it's the value-for-money proposition that matters and if a glass of liquor alters that significantly for someone, then so be it.

Will TK become hostile to non-Muslims? Will TK FAs suddenly become devout? Will TK ban non-Muslim pax? I don't think so - not yet, anyway - but they're welcome to try. At which point I (and others) will take our custom elsewhere. I really think this is much ado about nothing, albeit with the benefit of giving defenders of the old guard a stock to beat yet another upstart ME carrier with.

While the debate in Turkey is obviously very serious, the ramifications for TK are generally superficial and unlikely to dent the management or service culture (barring a tipple or two). Anything more than that will reduce its glitter - and the interest that politicos are taking in it.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26860 posts, RR: 58
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1963 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 35):
4. Not distributing opposition newspapers on all routes

Thats something I was not aware of and is kind of short sighted on TK's part if it is indeed policy.

Quoting TK105 (Reply 35):
Turkish Flag etc)

Whats the thinking behind that?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
Most of us are quite aware of the intricacies of the political situation. However, we are wary of blowing it out of proportion and letting people use it as a stick to beat TK with (and there are folk here who jump at the opportunity).

Well I dont see it as beating a stick. One might say that using that excuse tries to censor such issues and might assist in letting them think its ok to use the company for political motives.

I have been a fan of TK before it was ''fashionble'' to do so. I flew them when they had their B727 and A310s when they were a small set up. I always said that they were one airline to watch and its exceeded all expectations. I just hope they dont ruin their product by banning things based on religion. Whatever people say Premium passengers like the frills which includes Champage and other premium brands. Do I think they will remove it on all International routes maybe not but maybe this is just a test to see if they can get away with it.


User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1773 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
Will TK FAs suddenly become devout?

Hopefully not. What if they don't want to and start becoming harassed in the workplace? Looks like they are becoming more resticted on their choices. Sad.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
albeit with the benefit of giving defenders of the old guard a stock to beat yet another upstart ME carrier with.

I thought Turkey as a country was trying to sell itself as European. Guess not many are buying it and all those silly measures surely can't be helping.


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Quoting TK105 (Reply 35):
Turkish Flag etc)

Whats the thinking behind that?

I think TK management considers badges as a political statement.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):

Censor?

I think one needs to draw a line between the political happenings in Turkey and the impact on TK. Conflating the two serves no purpose. The government shouldn't be using the airline for political purposes (not that that stops airlines from using governments for their own purposes), but that is just the way it is because of the relative immaturity of Turkish democracy (banning opposition newspapers is a new low IMHO). My biggest concern (as a new TK fan) is the service level and the money-for-value proposition. Alcohol ... I m apathetic. I ll have it of its available. I wont miss it if it's not. I don't think it's a major issue for most Y pax - if it was, well, have you seen AC TPAC Y catering of late? I really think catering quality affects the value angle more than a couple of glasses of liquor.

Some of the issues - like grooming - I don't know what statement that makes. It strikes me simply as brand management, though it seems as though the general consensus is that something more sinister is afoot. Similarly, the alcohol ban on domestic and Islamic country flights doesn't strike me as anything too untoward though that can, more reasonably, be attributed to religion. Now if they roll that put system wide, that's a bigger issue, but AFAIK, they haven't.

I don't think the management is going to become more religious overnight, and TK's value to politicians is based on its commercial success. It's frustrating watching these changes coming, but I doubt they're going to lead to anything more than superficial changes.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):

There is alcohol in Y on European flights. Just domestic Y, which NEVER had alcohol. It is domestic C that got cut off recently.


User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1603 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 42):

If I'm not mistaken, for domestic Y, TK used to serve wine and beer, as well as distribute newspapers back in 90s. However after the economical issues following 9/11, TK went in to a big cost cutting plan and such luxury for domestic Y passengers ended.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1483 times:

Quoting TK105 (Reply 43):

You are right, I stand corrected on that. But by no means, this is a recent cut, nor is it unique in aviation world.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4003 posts, RR: 13
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1304 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
and them scrambling to fly everywhere possible is what?

Considering some of the peanut-sized fares TK offers, their huge list of destinations is a vanity project.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1259 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 45):

Considering some of the peanut-sized fares TK offers, their huge list of destinations is a vanity project.

They don't seem to be doing too badly financially. A profitable vanity project?


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1220 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 45):

Thats irrelevant, you said "Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go." the point is they are doing just that, flying people where they want to go, and more.

[Edited 2013-05-15 20:33:35]

User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9173 posts, RR: 29
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1139 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 47):
flying people where they want to go, and more.

what does "and more" mean? Flying people where they don't want to g?

Fact is, TK is an ambitious government project which is more than needed infrastructure for the Turkish economy.

The company embarked on an ambitious expansion project which has yet to prove that it is sustainable. The recent controversary in the TK management / supervisory board is not a good sign. As is using a commercial company that needs to attract customers from all over the world to promote religious doctrines. Even when these are yet modest.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1113 times:

Poster said something factually incorrect and got defensive when appropriately answered, bringing in unrelated things to justify what he said are you're doing the same, TK fly people almost everywhere that matters and they want or need to go tp and more places even if they don't need to go there but they are flying to those as well, wether they are selling for peanuts and its a vanity fair is irrelevant.

User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9173 posts, RR: 29
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1083 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 49):
K fly people almost everywhere that matters and they want or need to go tp and more places even if they don't need to go there but they are flying to those as well, wether they are selling for peanuts and its a vanity fair is irrelevant.

If that is so, that business model is not sustainable. When someone offers 20% or more interest p.a. or has growth rates in that region, the alarm bells go on. I have checked a couple of TK fares to various destinations and i wonder how they make money.

Flying to destinations because they are on the map is not a wise decision-. At the end of the da



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1082 times:

Did you read the post I had responded to? he said TK are not flying people where they need to go.

User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1029 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
Fact is, TK is an ambitious government project which is more than needed infrastructure for the Turkish economy.

What do you mean by "more than needed"? That Turkey has really needed TK for a long time and its about time its happened? Or that Turkey doesn't "need" a large, ambitious airline to fulfill its economic requirements?

Either which way, I will simply point out that there are much larger airlines out there that have a far more tenuous relationship with what their country's economy 'needs'. FWIW, 'need' sustains economies; 'want' grows economies. Nothing wrong with wanting bigger, better - the airline industry relies on premium cabins that far exceed what is 'needed' to get from point A to point B. Turkey's rise up the tourist charts suggests the Turkish government knows what its doing.

Nor do I see anything wrong with it being a government project. Its a profitable venture thats not costing taxpayers anything, so why not?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
The company embarked on an ambitious expansion project which has yet to prove that it is sustainable.

Its profitable. Its passenger numbers are growing. As someone who flies TK regularly, I have witnessed the slow but steady increase in prices. What was available at $1800 in April 2012 is selling at $2100 in April 2013. Still a great deal, mind. Same day, same time, watching the price ticker for months hoping it would go down - it never did.

As for proof that it is sustainable, TK need look no further than LH and EK. LH and EK have shown that there is a market for 6th freedom traffic between Europe, Asia and North America. EK has shown that filling Y can be profitable. All TK needs to do is tap into that market. Its easy enough for TK because they have a lower cost base and a better on-board product than LH (no 31" pitch, mediocre catering, relatively poor IFE). That's not going to change anytime soon. Like EK, TK has invested in its product across cabins, and thats reaping benefits at the back.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
As is using a commercial company that needs to attract customers from all over the world to promote religious doctrines. Even when these are yet modest.

What the Government is trying to do is not a good idea, but its a real stretch to say its using TK to promote religious doctrine. I'm not a muslim, and I won't become one after a 7-8 hour flight just because the FA is wearing no make-up, I couldn't get a glass of liquour, or there's a channel buried away somewhere in that large IFE system that has a religious text on it.

'Observe' seems like a more appropriate term than 'promote'.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
I have checked a couple of TK fares to various destinations and i wonder how they make money.

Yes, of course. How can anyone not charging LH/BA/AF fares make money?  

[Edited 2013-05-16 04:20:16]

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6539 posts, RR: 9
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 997 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 29):
Similar examples abound in France - for example, the state is apathetic towards Sikhism as a religion, and Sikhs are free to practice it as they wish, but they are banned from wearing turbans - a fundamental article of faith - in public (for example, they Sikhs were not allowed to enter educational establishments if they wore turbans). That's not atheism - there is no rejection of God or Gods (and Godesses) or religion. There is simply a limit on religious expression based on the principles of secularity, at which point the latter seizes to be an adjective and becomes an -ism.

You can wear anything in public, well not cover your face since recently. The limit is on public servants and children at public schools. At university women can wear a veil (not in Turkey until recently). Also, laws aren't changed to accommodate religions, like allowing Sicks to not wear helmets or things like that. Most French support that, including religious ones. Religion is something private and doing anything differently is seen as rude.

You may call that a limit on religious expression, but then, there are limits to everything. My religion is nudism, and very few countries allow me to wander around naked, should I be outraged ?

And really I don't see why a company should be able to impose very strict grooming and uniform standards but somehow let religious or political symbols slide, that makes no sense to me. Wearing a tie and shaving bothers me far more than not being able to wear a cross, not that I would wear one if allowed.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineTK105 From Turkey, joined Mar 2013, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 983 times:

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 52):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
Fact is, TK is an ambitious government project which is more than needed infrastructure for the Turkish economy.

What do you mean by "more than needed"? That Turkey has really needed TK for a long time and its about time its happened? Or that Turkey doesn't "need" a large, ambitious airline to fulfill its economic requirements?

Let me translate for you what PanHAM says: Turkey is a 3rd World Country. TK should not expand more than like-lies of AI, PK, MS. TK should basically fly limited to Turkish Diaspora. Business segment where TK is growing belongs to LH, BA, AF. etc etc... Typical 19th century European Ideology. But those days are over.

Obviously I'm also a bit annoyed by certain policies of current TK management such as not distributing opposition newspapers or not offering alcohol as a welcome drink to C passengers on international or some domestic routes which is a general policy for all respected airlines.

But I classify the current governing party in Turkey and also management of TK as capitalists rather than islamists. They are actually quite good and so far successful capitalists following American Model, though religion is an import motif of them. Is not it the same for conservatives in US?

Obviously they get all the votes of conservatives in Turkey and they have to do certain things to the liking of their voters. Most of the changes, to my opinion, is related to this. If you go over the list of what has changed lately, you will see that these changes will not much affect preferences of any international (or non-conservative domestic) passenger.

I'm sure that they will not do any thing that will harm the success of TK on the international market. Because they are good capitalists!


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1014 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 950 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 53):

Depends on the model of secularism you adopt.. Indian law does accommodate other religious beliefs. France takes it to an extreme by being punitive across the board. One model of secularism says the state shouldn't propagate religion, but should accommodate religious sensibilities. The other believes that the state has a right to discriminate against Religious people in some circumstances. Most lie in between, like Canada or the US, where laws may not be accommodative, but policies allow for accommodation.

Not allowing children to attend public schools on the basis of their religious headwear is absurd. It doesnt impede on anyone else's rights. It does, however, fall on the wrong side of the secular dogma that is as capable of losing sight of reason as any religion.

All of which is to say that while I am no fan of religion (any of them), I am rational enough to recognize that it plays/has played a role in shaping culture and identity. Trying to ensure it doesn't infiltrate into government policies is one thing; banning children from attending public schools on the basis of religious articles is quite another. The former has a significant impact across society; the latter affects no one else.

Turkish secularism erred by being too stringent with some of its rules and refusing to acknowledge the very real role that religion plays in Turkish identity, history and culture. Now we are seeing the religious crowd reassert themselves. It's a reaction - a phase- that won't last. Their moment in the sun, if you will. That said, I d much rather have them have their 15 min of fame than get disenfranchised under dogmatic secularism.


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