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My Niece Is Pregnant...  
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

Well under most conditions this would be a happy event. However, I cannot be more disappointed in my niece for her decision, and the father of her baby?? Well I better never run into him in this life or any other.

My niece just turned 19, which IMHO is way to young to have a baby from a maturity standpoint. The next part is what has my blood boiling.

The father of her baby is 46 years old. He is the father of the family that she has been babysitting for the past couple of years.

My niece thinks he will leave his wife and family and they will live happily ever after. Fat chance.

I am so mad at this guy for taking advantage of my niece words cannot even describe my rage...

111 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4113 times:

Oh dear, that really is a difficult one to deal with. Given his familial situation and his superior age, I can fully understand why you feel she's been taken advantage of.

I guess the only advice I can give you is to try and put the rage aside and support her as best you can.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19236 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece thinks he will leave his wife and family and they will live happily ever after. Fat chance

I agree, but it is her life - and there isn't an awful lot you can do about it. And while the outcome seems somewhat inevitable, perhaps it will help her in the longer-run.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
Oh dear, that really is a difficult one to deal with. Given his familial situation and his superior age, I can fully understand why you feel she's been taken advantage of.

I agree.

[Edited 2013-05-18 11:07:07]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

I wonder why this is your problem, you are not her parent, you're just a relative whose opinion doesn't matter. She on the other hand is a 19 year old who fell for an older bloke, happens all the time, the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........

At 19 she's old enough to know what she was getting herself into.


User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
I wonder why this is your problem, you are not her parent, you're just a relative whose opinion doesn't matter.

We are very close, always have been.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
I wonder why this is your problem, you are not her parent, you're just a relative whose opinion doesn't matter.

That's a bit harsh. I can totally understand why he cares. I love my nephews and nieces very much, and would be gutted if anything bad happened to them.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4051 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece thinks he will leave his wife and family and they will live happily ever after. Fat chance.

Of course he'll leave his wife for your 19 years old niece, and 20 years from now he'll leave your niece for another 19 years old! Just another sleazebag.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
I love my nephews and nieces very much, and would be gutted if anything bad happened to them.

Getting pregnant isn't bad, she's not dead, she wasn't in an accident, she got knocked up, she probably had fun doing it too.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
Getting pregnant isn't bad, she's not dead, she wasn't in an accident, she got knocked up, she probably had fun doing it too.

Worse things happen of course, but how big a deal it is just depends on lots of things, doesn't it? Perhaps she had a bright educational future, for example, which has just been made ten times less likely to happen - we don't know. There are many potential variables.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4005 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
Perhaps she had a bright educational future, for example, which has just been made ten times less likely to happen - we don't know.

She can always sort it out, she doesn't have to have the baby if she doesn't want to, it's her choice.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3991 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 9):
She can always sort it out, she doesn't have to have the baby if she doesn't want to, it's her choice.

Obviously. But that's not necessarily great either. I guess the only point is that yes, it might not be the worst thing ever, but it's also quite understandable why it might be a big deal too.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19938 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

As a physician who works with this age group, I have to have my face in my hands. Every 19-year-old woman should be on birth control. Every. Last. One.

She has to have seen a physician in the last year or so; why didn't any of them make sure she was on something?

I'm sorry you and she and her family are going through this. Unintended pregnancy sucks... and it's so preventable.  


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):

Obviously. But that's not necessarily great either.

Unless you have experience how do you know?


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7960 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece just turned 19
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
The father of her baby is 46 years old

Wow, I am only 45! Does that mean there's a real change for to sleep with another 18 or 19-year-old? Sunbed here I come.
No, honestly, that's an awful situation.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Unintended pregnancy sucks... and it's so preventable.

Well, I could name a couple of people who became parents while using some sort of contraception, and I don't mean some esoteric stuff. None of them were 19, though.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........

Uhhh. Abortion is an option, yes, but hardly the only option if she feels she cannot handle this at her point in her life.

Last thing the world needs is someone like you to pontificate how abortion is the only real option for someone 'smart' or intelligent.

Are you smart too? Are you usually one to correlate intellect with a callous indifference for human dignity? Wow, Mr. Smarty-pants indeed.

Well thank goodness for all the stupid, uneducated neanderthals who have continued to bring life into this world under unideal circumstances...

Abortion is not the only option, and is often knee jerk and short sighted, she should look into all the alternatives.

[Edited 2013-05-18 13:21:42]

[Edited 2013-05-18 13:25:22]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
Unless you have experience how do you know?

Are you suggesting that an abortion can ever be a desirable thing?? Sure it might sometimes be the least worst option, but that's not the same thing. I think the vast majority of people, regardless of whether they're in favour of abortions being legal, would consider it something best avoided.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion

I'd say they don't get pregnant. My little sister was on the pill as soon as boys were around.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 14):
Uhhh. Abortion is an option, yes, but hardly the only option if she feels she cannot handle this at her point in her life.

Last thing the world needs is someone like you to pontificate how abortion is the only real option for someone 'smart' or intelligence.

Are you smart too? Are you usually one to correlate intellect with a callous indifference for human dignity? Wow, Mr. Smarty-pants indeed.

Well thank goodness for all the stupid, uneducated neanderthals who have continued to bring life into this world under unideal circumstances...

Abortion is not the only option, and is often knee jerk and short sighted, she should look into all the alternatives.

Do you have numbers to back that up ? Juno is a nice movie but I doubt it happens much in practice, not after 9 months in the womb.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):

Do you have numbers to back that up ? Juno is a nice movie but I doubt it happens much in practice, not after 9 months in the womb.

I don't have the 'numbers' you crave, but I do have my heartbeat. It's relative commonplace and happens all the time.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13643 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3853 times:
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Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
Obviously. But that's not necessarily great either.
Unless you have experience how do you know?

kiwirob, you really oughta quit while you're behind.

Seriously.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3852 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 14):

Abortion is not the only option, and is often knee jerk and short sighted, she should look into all the alternatives.

At 19 it's often the best option.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
Are you suggesting that an abortion can ever be a desirable thing??

Yes I am. There are a lot of women who should have had an abortion, didn't and regretted it for the rest of their lives. I've went through the process with a previous partner, we were in our early 20's, not the right time of our lives to have children, I would have supported her in whatever decision she wanted to make, she chose abortion, I supported her choice. We've both since had 3 kids each, neither of us has a problem with what happened and both agree in hindsight the decision we made was the best one for both of us, our lives would be completely different today had we had the child.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):

I'd say they don't get pregnant. My little sister was on the pill as soon as boys were around.

Smart parents, my wife and I have already talked about what we will do with our daughter when she starts getting interested in boys, getting her on the pill is the obvious and sensible answer, I don't believe in abstinence, that's complete bs IMO, teenagers shag like rabbits, I did, I'm pretty sure my kids will too, after all we do live in Norway.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
At 19 it's often the best option.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
Yes I am. There are a lot of women who should have had an abortion, didn't and regretted it for the rest of their lives. I've went through the process with a previous partner, we were in our early 20's, not the right time of our lives to have children, I would have supported her in whatever decision she wanted to make, she chose abortion, I supported her choice. We've both since had 3 kids each, neither of us has a problem with what happened and both agree in hindsight the decision we made was the best one for both of us, our lives would be completely different today had we had the child.

I pretty much said that I understood there were situations where it's the best option in an undesirable situation, but the point is that the fact you have to even come to make that choice is a bad thing and surely best avoided in the first place! It's never an outright positive thing. Sure it can be the lesser of two evils.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14072 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3838 times:

My girlfriend´s sister got knocked up unintentionally while still in college and lost contact with the father. While her family in the Philippines was at first a bit upset, they soon adapted to the situation. Her now 6 year old daughter is the darling of the family and is a really smart girl (in elementary school they advanced her a year because she was bored in school. She taught herself how to read when she was only 4 years old). And the mother finished college as well because her whole family supported her and took over duties as babysitters when requried.
We are joking that the girl has 4 daddies and about half a dozen mothers (my girlfriend´s brothers, the husband of her older sister, my girlfriend´s other sisters and some cousins).

Jan


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
She on the other hand is a 19 year old who fell for an older bloke, happens all the time, the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........

No, the smart ones don't get pregnant in the first place and get on with their lives and the rest...


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3800 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 20):
the fact you have to even come to make that choice is a bad thing

I don't see it as a bad thing, it's just something that happened.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):
Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.

I gather you're a religious right wing anti abortion type.

Quoting Polot (Reply 23):

No, the smart ones don't get pregnant in the first place and get on with their lives and the rest...

Some smart ones also get knocked up, my ex is now a judge.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7960 posts, RR: 12
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
There are a lot of women who should have had an abortion, didn't and regretted it for the rest of their lives.

And there are others who did have an abortion and later needed a psychotherapist.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
neither of us has a problem with what happened

Good for you and your wife, but is this really the norm?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
My little sister was on the pill as soon as boys were around.

The pill iss not just some collection of vitamins girls can throw in and everything is fine. Young women have died due to the pill, others suffer from serious side-effects, there have been law suits and all that. What I see here is a group of men saying "women should take the pill", "women should terminate pregnancy". And what's left to you guys? All the fun?



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3909 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):

Good for you and your wife, but is this really the norm?

Not wife, ex girlfriend. Who is to say it isn't the norm, you don't know, neither do I, but I suspect far more women don't have an issue with it than do.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7960 posts, RR: 12
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 26):
Who is to say it isn't the norm, you don't know, neither do I, but I suspect far more women don't have an issue with it than do.

So?
A 2011 study funded by the U.S. Department of Health found that the incidence of mental health problems in women who have an unwanted pregnancy was the same whether they had an abortion or not.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
The pill iss not just some collection of vitamins girls can throw in and everything is fine. Young women have died due to the pill, others suffer from serious side-effects, there have been law suits and all that. What I see here is a group of men saying "women should take the pill", "women should terminate pregnancy". And what's left to you guys? All the fun?

A pregnancy is far more dangerous than the pill.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

The biggest thorn in my side is the age difference. She is over 18, but a 27 year age gap?? Thats what really pisses me off and thats why this relationship is doomed. Sure the father, 46, makes decent money and will likely have a pretty good chunk of his paycheck going to child support for the next 18 years at least.

Now look at the other side of the equation, the father is a home owner, wife, and kids. If he does not get kicked out it will be an ugly situation on his side as well..


User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4838 posts, RR: 26
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3916 times:
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The smartest decision this girl can make is to do what's best for her while eliminating the idea from her mind that she will live happily ever after with the father.

I've seen too many close friends get knocked up and choose to keep the child because the DOUCHEBAG fathers led them to believe they will be together forever, only to have the guys bail either at the end of the pregnancy or right after the birth of the child.

That shit fucking pisses me off.



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User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3863 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........

Wow, according to you, my mother is an idiot and if she was smart, she should have aborted me. Nice. I don't believe in banning abortion, but to call it the only "smart" choice is beyond the pale.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):
Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.

I gather you're a religious right wing anti abortion type.

You don't have to be a "religious right wing anti abortion type" to see an inherent moral contradiction in being able to look your current children in the eyes while acknowledging that if they had come along 10 years earlier, you would have aborted them.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
There are a lot of women who should have had an abortion, didn't and regretted it for the rest of their lives.

And there are others who did have an abortion and later needed a psychotherapist.

And to add to that, there are others who did have their children and went on to live completely happy and fulfilling lives.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):

A rotten situation indeed, but echoing RussianJet, put aside your frustration as best you can and let your niece know that you support her, depending on the situation, it doesn't have to be a terrible thing. My mom was 19 when she had me, she was wholly unprepared and immature at the time and had previously been pretty much a wild party-girl, but she was lucky enough to have a good family support system. With family support, my mother ended up adjusting extremely well and my mom and family often remark to me that I was the best thing that ever could have happened to her. So try to keep positive and offer her your support, and I truly hope things work out for her.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3834 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
inherent moral contradiction

What inherent moral contradiction? Morality is not objective, and things are judged, individually, based on our own standard of morality. You can't have an inherent anything when regarding the idea of morality.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 26
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):

Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.

What is vile about it when it can be true given the right context? It is equally pretentious to respond to a scenario like this with the attitude that only one point of view is correct.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
You don't have to be a "religious right wing anti abortion type" to see an inherent moral contradiction in being able to look your current children in the eyes while acknowledging that if they had come along 10 years earlier, you would have aborted them.

Only a sick person would do that. Life happens, and people move on and learn from their mistakes. It happens everywhere.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 32):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
inherent moral contradiction

What inherent moral contradiction? Morality is not objective, and things are judged, individually, based on our own standard of morality. You can't have an inherent anything when regarding the idea of morality.

Yeah, if you take a relativists approach to morality. Is murder or stealing not immoral to you? Because, after all, to the thief, he's not doing anything immoral, he's just acquiring something that he wants at the expense of others. Or the psychopathic killer, he isn't committing an immoral act by murdering someone else according to you. His own individual standard of morality dictates that he can take the lives of others so therefore he isn't doing anything immoral, right?

See the insanity your line of thinking devolves to?

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 33):
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):

Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.

What is vile about it when it can be true given the right context? It is equally pretentious to respond to a scenario like this with the attitude that only one point of view is correct.

Because he stated so categorically and hasn't clarified or elaborated given numerous opportunities here, categorically stating that 'the smart ones get an abortion' is ridiculous.

[Edited 2013-05-18 16:57:10]

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
Some smart ones also get knocked up, my ex is now a judge.

And I am sure you can find plenty of smart and successful people who got knocked up and decided to keep the baby. That doesn't mean the smartest choice is to not get knocked up in the first place...pregnancy isn't really something you should take lightly and just think "whatever, an abortion will take care of it."


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 34):
Yeah, if you take a relativists approach to morality. Is murder or stealing not immoral to you? Because, after all, to the thief, he's not doing anything immoral, he's just acquiring something that he wants at the expense of others. Or the psychopathic killer, he isn't committing an immoral act by murdering someone else according to you. His own individual standard of morality dictates that he can take the lives of others so therefore he isn't doing anything immoral, right?

See the insanity your line of thinking devolves to?

Inmoral to me? Yes, killing/stealing/raping is inmoral to me. What I'm saying it that you can't claim inherent moral contradictions for anything as we don't have the same standards of morality. There are ground rules, per se, and those are commonly agreed to by the greater people in society. Right and wrong do have concrete bases, but the higher idea of morality--at least on the edges, if you will--is malleable.

Take, for example, the issue of abortion; many would say that it is inmoral--tantamount to murder and whatnot--while others would say that it is perfectly morally permissible.

It's not a relativist approach; I'm merely pointing out that you can't assert moral antinomy as there is nothing to base such a claim on.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 36):
Right and wrong do have concrete bases, but the higher idea of morality--at least on the edges, if you will--is malleable.

What is the difference between "Right and wrong" and morality? None.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 36):
Take, for example, the issue of abortion; many would say that it is inmoral--tantamount to murder and whatnot--while others would say that it is perfectly morally permissible.

That's fine if you're simply limiting the parameters as to whether or not you believe abortion is moral. But there is indeed an inherent contradiction if you have children, tell them you love them all the time and that you wouldn't want any harm to come to them, but at the same time knowing that if they had come along X years earlier, you would have aborted them.


Quoting aaron747 (Reply 33):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
You don't have to be a "religious right wing anti abortion type" to see an inherent moral contradiction in being able to look your current children in the eyes while acknowledging that if they had come along 10 years earlier, you would have aborted them.

Only a sick person would do that. Life happens, and people move on and learn from their mistakes. It happens everywhere.

I agree that life happens, that one makes mistakes and regrettable decisions. But, as you say, for the person not to be "sick", they have to acknowledge them as mistakes and regrets.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):

What is the difference between "Right and wrong" and morality? None.

Society's right and wrong is expressed through law. Morality is a personal parameter of right and wrong. They are not the same thing.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):
But there is indeed an inherent contradiction if you have children, tell them you love them all the time and that you wouldn't want any harm to come to them, but at the same time knowing that if they had come along X years earlier, you would have aborted them.

It may be a contradiction, but not a moral one.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 26
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3742 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):
But, as you say, for the person not to be "sick", they have to acknowledge them as mistakes and regrets.

No I'm saying it would be sick to have such a twisted perspective on one's own past that they would look in their children's eyes and do what was described.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3737 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece just turned 19, which IMHO is way to young to have a baby from a maturity standpoint. The next part is what has my blood boiling.

The father of her baby is 46 years old. He is the father of the family that she has been babysitting for the past couple of years.

The age aspect doesn't bother me so much, but the fact that this man has a family that he is likely to leave behind for a 19-year old is despicable. I don't know your niece, but I'm sure she deserves better. It's a shame that it appears she is blind to the very real probability that he will ditch her (and the child, if she keeps it) sometime down the road.

I can't help but wonder: was this a one-time thing and she was incredibly unlucky, or did they have an ongoing relationship behind the scenes?

I agree with RussianJet that, as her uncle, it's really your job to just be there and support her whatever her decision is, and not to engage the creep that got her pregnant.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 14):
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):

Kiwirob could have used a wiser choice in words, but you're no better for misquoting him to support your own side of the argument. Nowhere in his post does he say that abortion is the "only" option.

Don't forget that some alternatives are better for some than others. Abortion is absolutely the best alternative for some people, while adoption is best for some others, and keeping the child is the best for the rest. Kiwirob clearly holds the opinion that abortion is the best for a young, possible immature girl who is in a toxic relationship, and you should at least give him the courtesy of rebutting the argument with some decorum rather than flying off the handle like that.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion

I'd say they don't get pregnant.

  

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
And what's left to you guys? All the fun?

Aren't they creating a pill that men can take that works similar to the one females currently use? If so, I would absolutely consider going on it. I'm willing to do my part  
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
I don't believe in banning abortion, but to call it the only "smart" choice is beyond the pale.

Again, he never said it was the "only smart choice".

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 34):
Yeah, if you take a relativists approach to morality. Is murder or stealing not immoral to you? Because, after all, to the thief, he's not doing anything immoral, he's just acquiring something that he wants at the expense of others. Or the psychopathic killer, he isn't committing an immoral act by murdering someone else according to you. His own individual standard of morality dictates that he can take the lives of others so therefore he isn't doing anything immoral, right?

A commonplace acceptance of a defined set of morals doesn't make it absolute. Every facet of morality is entirely subjective. There also has to be a degree of relativism when you view any ethical issue. Moral imperialism only leads to closed-mindedness.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10101 posts, RR: 26
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3737 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):
That's fine if you're simply limiting the parameters as to whether or not you believe abortion is moral. But there is indeed an inherent contradiction if you have children, tell them you love them all the time and that you wouldn't want any harm to come to them, but at the same time knowing that if they had come along X years earlier, you would have aborted them.

Where's the contradiction? If they had come along 10 years earlier, the entire situation is different. You can't use the fact that you love them 10+ years later to say there's a contradiction there.

Especially if you weren't ready, mentally or financially, to care for them, you might have just ended up greatly resenting them 10 years earlier.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3723 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 38):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):

What is the difference between "Right and wrong" and morality? None.

Society's right and wrong is expressed through law.

...and what guides the creation of such laws?


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 40):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
I don't believe in banning abortion, but to call it the only "smart" choice is beyond the pale.

Again, he never said it was the "only smart choice".

"...the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest..." not a whole lot to leave up to the imagination.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 40):
A commonplace acceptance of a defined set of morals doesn't make it absolute. Every facet of morality is entirely subjective. There also has to be a degree of relativism when you view any ethical issue. Moral imperialism only leads to closed-mindedness.

A degree of relativism being the key word, society can't exist in an environment of pure subjectivism. In any case, no matter which way you look at it (subjectively or absolutely), if you have children and proclaim to love them, it obviously means you value the life of your offspring (I would hope), so at the same time acknowledging that you would abort them if they had come at an earlier "less opportune" point in your life, it's at the very least a personal moral contradiction.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 41):
If they had come along 10 years earlier, the entire situation is different.

So if the situation changes for the worse in the future, does it suddenly make it ok to kill your children?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 41):
You can't use the fact that you love them 10+ years later to say there's a contradiction there.

It's your child, no matter when they're born (or were supposed to be born), you love them. There's a very obvious contradiction there, at least to me and many others.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 41):
Especially if you weren't ready, mentally or financially, to care for them, you might have just ended up greatly resenting them 10 years earlier.


Resentment to the point of killing myself or wishing myself out of existence? No, at the very least I would value the chance at a life and, no matter how my life actually did turn out, I would still prefer that over death.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3666 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
A degree of relativism being the key word, society can't exist in an environment of pure subjectivism.

Right. I don't think anybody here is arguing in favour of pure subjectivism though. The way I interpreted your arguments was that you were saying there is no room for any relativism whatsoever. My apologies if I misunderstood.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
In any case, no matter which way you look at it (subjectively or absolutely), if you have children and proclaim to love them, it obviously means you value the life of your offspring (I would hope), so at the same time acknowledging that you would abort them if they had come at an earlier "less opportune" point in your life, it's at the very least a personal moral contradiction.

I still fail to see the contradiction. Saying that you would have aborted the child had it happened 10 years ago during a very inopportune time is brutally honest, not contradictory, as having kids in the present wasn't at all inopportune. To me it sounds more like you're making the argument that abortion is just flat-out immoral (which is your right to do so if you believe that).



Flying refined.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

Abortion is not killing to me. I'm not talking about late term abortion, that only the US and developing countries even allow outside of medical reasons. I'm talking about most abortions, made during the first trimester, aborting a pack of cells. Sure it could have become a child, just like every spermatozoon and ovule can become a child. But it doesn't, and that's it.

As for reasoning in hypotheses, well, what's the point ? Ten years ago I used a condom with my girlfriend. Imagine I didn't, I could have a 9 years old child ! Let's ban condoms.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 44):
I still fail to see the contradiction. Saying that you would have aborted the child had it happened 10 years ago during a very inopportune time is brutally honest, not contradictory

Yeah fair enough, I can see how it's not necessarily a contradiction per se, but I can't really understand how that's a healthy perspective to have on life or children. Can't imagine how a child would feel if their parents were, as you described, brutally honest with them in such a way.

I just want to make clear as well that I'm not passing judgement on kiwirob. I don't know what his exact situation was or exactly what all of his feelings are regarding the subject so I obviously am in no place to pass judgement. My opinions were directed more towards such a situation in general.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 44):
To me it sounds more like you're making the argument that abortion is just flat-out immoral (which is your right to do so if you believe that).

I don't want to derail the topic into such a debate, but yes, while I don't believe the government should be involved at all in such decisions (late-term abortions being the exception), I personally view abortion as immoral. It is an intriguing dynamic, but most of the "pro-choice" people I've come across describe themselves as personally opposed to abortion.


User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 26
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
It is an intriguing dynamic, but most of the "pro-choice" people I've come across describe themselves as personally opposed to abortion.

I would place myself in this category as well. I would not make the choice myself, but I am hardly in a position to make that decision for others, much less judge what they decide is best for themselves.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
I don't know what his exact situation was or exactly what all of his feelings are regarding the subject so I obviously am in no place to pass judgement.

It sounds like you are in a similar frame of mind, after all.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Can't imagine how a child would feel if their parents were, as you described, brutally honest with them in such a way.

In healthy communication, 100% openness is usually both undesirable and unnecessary. On balance, it's hard to imagine why it should even come up unless one needs to have a serious discussion on the matter with a teenage child in a risky personal situation.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3531 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 42):

...and what guides the creation of such laws?

Most certainly not morality.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Yeah fair enough, I can see how it's not necessarily a contradiction per se, but I can't really understand how that's a healthy perspective to have on life or children.

Agreed.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 40):
Kiwirob clearly holds the opinion that abortion is the best for a young, possible immature girl who is in a toxic relationship

Right on the button.


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10101 posts, RR: 26
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3442 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
So if the situation changes for the worse in the future, does it suddenly make it ok to kill your children?

No. You decided to have your child. You made the decision, now it's too late.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
It's your child, no matter when they're born (or were supposed to be born), you love them.

In theory. But there are plenty of mothers/fathers who either kill their children, abandon them, or (much better) give them up for adoption, so that's obviously not a blanket statement.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
Resentment to the point of killing myself or wishing myself out of existence? No, at the very least I would value the chance at a life and, no matter how my life actually did turn out, I would still prefer that over death.

I thought we were talking about childrens' deaths, not parents'.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Can't imagine how a child would feel if their parents were, as you described, brutally honest with them in such a way.

Probably depends on how well-adjusted said child is. I believe in being honest with kids to the fullest extent possible, if it won't harm them.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
It is an intriguing dynamic, but most of the "pro-choice" people I've come across describe themselves as personally opposed to abortion.

That's actually nice to see - personally opposed to something, but not against everyone doing it.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):
but at the same time knowing that if they had come along X years earlier, you would have aborted them.

It wouldn't be the same child it would have been another child so how does that relate to the children you had 10 years later.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14072 posts, RR: 62
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3214 times:

Who in this case profits from an abortion? In the end only the guy, who can hide his affair and won´t have to pay child support. My sister had an abortion when she was in her early 20s, while in college, and she always regretted the decision (which sounded right to her when she discovered that she was pregnant, but still with many years to go in university).
When she got pregnant again, just before she graduated, her and her then boyfriend decided to keep the baby (ok, he had a good job and could easily support her financially). She finished her masteral thesis and her final exams in record time before the planned delivery and the two got married. She is now divorcing from this guy, but she loves her two sons.

In the end the decision is with your niece. I personally would say, she should not abort, but the whole family should give her the full support, not just moneywise, but also through tasks like babysitting, so that she can finish her education and get into a job, without having to depend on the baby´s possibly quite unreliable father. Also support her in the process of getting what she is due from the father of her child.

There are enough young women, who manage to get their lives sorted, even if they have a child at young age.

Jan


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21679 posts, RR: 55
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Can't imagine how a child would feel if their parents were, as you described, brutally honest with them in such a way.

If they're wise enough (which as children they may not be), they will probably see the merit in the philosophy. If the parents aren't capable of properly raising a child, then by having the child they are making things more difficult for the child. And yes, there's adoption as well, but that presents its own set of issues for the child.

I can honestly say that I would be very inclined not to have an abortion in a similar circumstance (though I'll never get that chance, since I've only got one X chromosome); but I can't say that I wouldn't actually end up doing it. It's a very personal decision based on things that only one person can really and truly feel.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 50):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
So if the situation changes for the worse in the future, does it suddenly make it ok to kill your children?

No. You decided to have your child. You made the decision, now it's too late.

It all ultimately depends on whether or not you believe abortion is killing a child. I do, so therefor I don't see how you can make the distinction there if you were previously justifying abortion based on situational ethics.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 50):
But there are plenty of mothers/fathers who either kill their children, abandon them

How many of them went on to have children later in life?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 50):
or (much better) give them up for adoption

Adoption doesn't mean you don't love your child, many would argue that it's one of the most selfless acts a parent can make.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 50):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
Resentment to the point of killing myself or wishing myself out of existence? No, at the very least I would value the chance at a life and, no matter how my life actually did turn out, I would still prefer that over death.

I thought we were talking about childrens' deaths, not parents'.

We are, and I'm saying as a child who came from a situation where some would believe the smart choice would have been to abort me, that I wouldn't care how crappy or potentially difficult my life could have been, because I'd still prefer that or at least the chance at life over death.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 50):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Can't imagine how a child would feel if their parents were, as you described, brutally honest with them in such a way.

Probably depends on how well-adjusted said child is. I believe in being honest with kids to the fullest extent possible, if it won't harm them.

Well if you honestly still believe, after having children and holding them...etc, that you would still abort them if the circumstances were right, that's your choice, but again, can't really see that as a healthy perspective on life.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 51):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):
but at the same time knowing that if they had come along X years earlier, you would have aborted them.

It wouldn't be the same child it would have been another child so how does that relate to the children you had 10 years later.

I can't see what difference that would make, if one has another child in the future, he/she wouldn't be the same child as their other children, but it doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that one loves them any less than their current children.


Quoting Mir (Reply 53):
If the parents aren't capable of properly raising a child, then by having the child they are making things more difficult for the child.

Again, as opposed to what? Death? Not even having the chance at life?

Quoting Mir (Reply 53):
And yes, there's adoption as well, but that presents its own set of issues for the child.

Issues worse than death? Do you then think suicide is justified in certain situations if someone has issues or a more difficult life?


Quoting Mir (Reply 53):
It's a very personal decision based on things that only one person can really and truly feel.

I agree, it's a serious situation and not a decision one should make lightly.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
happens all the time

Exactly. This kind of thing is what makes the world go round.

19 years old is plenty old enough to have a baby. Our contemporary attitude that 40 year olds should be having babies is actually ludicrous. For human beings, age 18-25 is the ideal child bearing age.

We, as a society, should make allowances to deal with that fact.

I don't subscribe to the conventional pseudo "morality" that only educated, married, financially stable 30-39 year olds ought to have babies. That's not realistic... and shows a *very* limited understanding of the human condition.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Can't imagine how a child would feel if their parents were, as you described, brutally honest with them in such a way.

I don't have kids, but I can't see why any parent would say such a thing to their kids whether it were true or not!

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
It is an intriguing dynamic, but most of the "pro-choice" people I've come across describe themselves as personally opposed to abortion.

I've had a completely different experience. A majority of the pro-choice individuals I've spoken with have expressed no personal or moral opposition to abortion.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 52):
Who in this case profits from an abortion? In the end only the guy, who can hide his affair and won´t have to pay child support.

That's rather narrow-sighted. The woman benefits in that she won't be burdened with having to care for a child before she is ready to do so productively.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 52):
There are enough young women, who manage to get their lives sorted, even if they have a child at young age.

Ever seen that [i]Teen Mom[i] show?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 55):
19 years old is plenty old enough to have a baby. Our contemporary attitude that 40 year olds should be having babies is actually ludicrous. For human beings, age 18-25 is the ideal child bearing age.

We, as a society, should make allowances to deal with that fact.

I don't subscribe to the conventional pseudo "morality" that only educated, married, financially stable 30-39 year olds ought to have babies. That's not realistic... and shows a *very* limited understanding of the human condition.

Physically speaking, you're correct. But who is to say all 18-25 year olds are mentally or financially prepared to bear a child? I'm in that age range, and I'd say very few.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10101 posts, RR: 26
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3106 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 54):
How many of them went on to have children later in life?

Dunno. It's probably kind of difficult in jail.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 54):

Well if you honestly still believe, after having children and holding them...etc, that you would still abort them if the circumstances were right, that's your choice, but again, can't really see that as a healthy perspective on life.

I think it's a perfectly healthy perspective on life. Too many people bring kids into unhealthy or just terrible situations, financially, mentally, physically, whatever. Deciding that you're not going to do so is, I think, a smart choice, even if abortions are rather off-putting, to say the least.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 52):
Who in this case profits from an abortion? In the end only the guy, who can hide his affair and won´t have to pay child support.

Well I'm of the opinion that if the father has no say in what the mother does, then he should not have to pay either. Then it's only her choice and her responsibility. And frankly bringing a child in our world (that really doesn't need it) without caring that it will not have a father seems pretty selfish, and has consequences in our societies.

As for regretting an abortion later on in life, well, that's not rational. They were not trying to have a child at the time, and there was a good reason for that.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14072 posts, RR: 62
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 56):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 52):
There are enough young women, who manage to get their lives sorted, even if they have a child at young age.

Ever seen that [i]Teen Mom[i] show?

Ok, our teenage pregnancy rate here in the continental European countries is somehow lower than in the Englishpeaking ones (I wonder why?), but there exists support for young single mothers over here, both from NGOs as well as from the government, to allow them to finish their education and enter a productive life. We don´t shun them due to fake moralistic reasons.
We don´t have the culture of young welfare moms.

Jan


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 56):
Physically speaking, you're correct. But who is to say all 18-25 year olds are mentally or financially prepared to bear a child? I'm in that age range, and I'd say very few.

Few people are mentally and financially prepared to have a child, in a loving marriage with excellent childbearing ability. Almost no-one I know. But women at 20 are mature adults with equal or greater powers of coping than someone 10 or 20 years older. I've seen women finish grad school and college nursing a baby with GPA that would make most men cry for joy. Ultimately though, having a baby is more important than a timely degree. So many of my friends are responsible great people who are now too old to conceive. And they want children. To me, this is worse than having a kid too early. And it is also rather irresponsible, in an equally dire way.

I guess my moral view is that good people should have kids early and often. Bad people should never have kids. We should not oversimplify that to say no young people should have kids. Grandparents, for example, in their 40s-60s have excellent earning potential and wealth. Maybe they should help out.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3022 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 59):
our teenage pregnancy rate here in the continental European countries is somehow lower than in the Englishpeaking ones (I wonder why?)

I don't know what the excuse is the UK or US is, but in Canada it's a Catholic school system that teaches abstinence rather than safe sex practices. I went to a public high school, and during that time I knew maybe 3 girls who got pregnant, whereas the Catholic highschool down the road had a full-sized daycare (no joke).

Quoting Flighty (Reply 60):
So many of my friends are responsible great people who are now too old to conceive. And they want children. To me, this is worse than having a kid too early. And it is also rather irresponsible, in an equally dire way.

There are plenty of great kids trapped in the foster system that would love to be adopted by your friends.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 60):
I guess my moral view is that good people should have kids early and often.

As to say it's immoral for good people to not have kids early and often? I consider myself a good person, but I have too much living yet to do before I have kids. I'm sure the OP's niece is a good person too, and she has just severely limited her ability to quite a bit, assuming she decides to keep the child.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 60):
Grandparents, for example, in their 40s-60s have excellent earning potential and wealth. Maybe they should help out.

My parents have worked very hard to earn a very comfortable living. I have no desire to burden them, financially or otherwise, with a kid I had before I could support it on my own.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):

I gather you're a religious right wing anti abortion type.

After I stopped laughing (which was quite a while), it brought me to question what either politics or religion have to do with this discussion, or my comments.

I've always contended religion not to be a sort of prerequisite for morality. I don't understand what thousands year old books have to do with my distaste for a developing human embryo/fetus to be unceremoniously disrupted by a makeshift vacuum cleaner. I don't see where religion needs to come into this picture for someone to not think of this as a natural or desired outcome for a pregnancy.

Then we come to politics. Ah. Where have you seen me say I think abortion should be illegal? Obviously I don't like abortion, and fail to see how anyone could truly 'like' it... but personally i've (sometimes begrudgingly) accepted it as a personal right to choose with the help of political pragmatism and a generally low regard of human nature. If you think i see much virtue in 'religious right' policies against adoptions they don't approve, desire for limited governmental support once the baby enters this world, and too often holier-than-thou scorn for young pregnant mothers... I do not. I definitely support abortion in particularly unsavory cases and hope for political and social policies that would decrease the want or need for an abortion.

If we're going to play the kneejerk stereotype game, two can tango. I gather without some sort of ethical grounding you have any semblance of a moral compass in any bone in your body?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):

Wow, according to you, my mother is an idiot and if she was smart, she should have aborted me. Nice. I don't believe in banning abortion, but to call it the only "smart" choice is beyond the pale.

Me too. We'd be goners.

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 33):

What is vile about it when it can be true given the right context? It is equally pretentious to respond to a scenario like this with the attitude that only one point of view is correct.

If you read this thread, I think you'd find it was he who came off as the one seeing things overly simplistic and not I.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 40):
but you're no better for misquoting him to support your own side of the argument. Nowhere in his post does he say that abortion is the "only" option.

I don't think I misquoted him in any way. I think he clearly stated, essentially: the smart ones get abortions. That's pretty much a verbatim quote. And that train of thought angered me greatly.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 40):
Kiwirob clearly holds the opinion that abortion is the best for a young, possible immature girl who is in a toxic relationship

And I very much disagree with that blanket philosophy. Just because he's been through it doesn't mean everyone will handle it the same. Does he need more abortions and popular approval of this blanket policy to feel more justified or alleviated with his past?

[Edited 2013-05-19 13:42:00]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 62):
I gather without some sort of ethical grounding you have any semblance of a moral compass in any bone in your body?

Here we go again with the morality issue... It's a nonsensical argument as I explained above.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2953 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 63):

Here we go again with the morality issue... It's a nonsensical argument as I explained above.

It had a greater point. If I am the 'religious right' because I am not raving about the virtues of abortion, by the same token why would I believe him to have any ethics or morality. They are sweeping assumptions and not wise paths to go down.

But I will say, I think abortion is immoral from virtually any perspective. If you're religious , it's like we're all sinners. If you're not, surely you have things you wish you hadn't needed to do, or things you might regret or feel somber about. Can we at least agree that it's not a good or moral thing to do, and ultimately a lesser of the perceived evils? And that there are really wonderful alternatives that 'intelligence' should not supersede you from?

[Edited 2013-05-19 14:08:00]

[Edited 2013-05-19 14:09:09]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2941 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 62):
Then we come to politics. Ah. Where have you seen me say I think abortion should be illegal? Obviously I don't like abortion, and fail to see how anyone could truly 'like' it... but personally i've (sometimes begrudgingly) accepted it as a personal right to choose with the help of political pragmatism and a generally low regard of human nature. If you think i see much virtue in 'religious right' policies against adoptions they don't approve, desire for limited governmental support once the baby enters this world, and too often holier-than-thou scorn for young pregnant mothers... I do not. I definitely support abortion in particularly unsavory cases and hope for political and social policies that would decrease the want or need for an abortion.

Well we can definitely agree on that!

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 62):
And I very much disagree with that blanket philosophy.

Right, which is the point of threads, to discuss opposing points of view...but there was no need to lose it on him for having an opinion you disagree with. Getting pissed off and showing it doesn't make for a convincing argument.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 62):
Does he need more abortions and popular approval of this blanket policy to feel more justified or alleviated with his past?

He doesn't seem all that perturbed by it, nor should he.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 64):
Can we at least agree that it's not a good or moral thing to do, and ultimately a lesser of the perceived evils?

Abortion isn't pleasant, and should only be done after considerable thought and unbiased advice, but there are occasions where it is the moral thing to do.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2935 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 65):
He doesn't seem all that perturbed by it, nor should he.

Not saying he should be, but I am saying he shouldn't feel the need to convince others to do likewise if they are 'smart', which is how I viewed his comments. It's not 'smart' just because he did it. Many other smart, wonderful people have made different decisions with great outcomes.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 65):

Abortion isn't pleasant, and should only be done after considerable thought and unbiased advice, but there are occasions where it is the moral thing to do.

And that is true, with the special cases, but I see this general discussion and thread starter erring toward standard: consensual relationship, healthy baby cases.

[Edited 2013-05-19 14:12:42]

[Edited 2013-05-19 14:14:55]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2918 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 66):
Many other smart, wonderful people have made different decisions with great outcomes.

True, but it's a pointless argument given that the exact opposite can also be argued. They cancel each other out.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 66):
And that is true, with the special cases, but I see this general discussion and thread starter erring toward standard: consensual relationship, healthy baby cases.

Well I only believe abortion should take place before the fetus is developed enough to even determine whether it will be a healthy baby or not. I don't think anybody would disagree with that.

But if we bring the thread back to the OP's niece, yes, it was from all appearances a consensual relationship, but that doesn't necessarily mean that keeping the child will have a positive effect on all involved. Not all pregnant teens have the support system that this girl has.

Speaking hypothetically, let's look at a 19-year old girl who became pregnant (through a consensual encounter) from a man who took off soon after, she is estranged from her family, and doesn't have a job. There's an overwhelming probability that that child is going to have a really shitty life. So even though the relationship was consensual, and the baby will likely be healthy, should she still have the baby knowing that the kid is going to suffer?



Flying refined.
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 67):

True, but it's a pointless argument given that the exact opposite can also be argued. They cancel each other out.

It is not a pointless argument. It is the perfect and logical rebuttal to:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 67):

But if we bring the thread back to the OP's niece, yes, it was from all appearances a consensual relationship, but that doesn't necessarily mean that keeping the child will have a positive effect on all involved. Not all pregnant teens have the support system that this girl has.

Speaking hypothetically, let's look at a 19-year old girl who became pregnant (through a consensual encounter) from a man who took off soon after, she is estranged from her family, and doesn't have a job. There's an overwhelming probability that that child is going to have a really shitty life. So even though the relationship was consensual, and the baby will likely be healthy, should she still have the baby knowing that the kid is going to suffer?

No one is saying she needs to keep the baby afterwords. You pretty much exactly describe my entry into this world. So there, we're each biased. I think I can win hearts and minds better, though.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 68):
No one is saying she needs to keep the baby afterwords. You pretty much exactly describe my entry into this world. So there, we're each biased. I think I can win hearts and minds better, though.

How do I have a bias? I've never gotten a girl pregnant, and I'm not the result of an accidental pregnancy. I'm looking at this from a very unemotional standpoint. You can win all the hearts you want with your story, but I'd rather win minds with my logic. But either way, this isn't a win-lose thing.

Anyway, your comment bothers the hell out of me: "No one is saying she needs to keep the baby afterwards". The foster system is underfunded, crowded, and rife with some of the most awful treatment of children I've ever heard about. If I was in the same position as the OP's niece, I would either get an abortion or keep the baby. Giving it up for adoption would not even be considered unless it was a close friend or family member taking the baby in. Really what I'm saying is, if the kid is born, I'm keeping it or it's in my life somehow. Dropping it off at Child Services isn't an option.

[Edited 2013-05-19 15:15:39]


Flying refined.
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 69):

How do I have a bias? I've never gotten a girl pregnant, and I'm not the result of an accidental pregnancy. I'm looking at this from a very unemotional standpoint. You can win all the hearts you want with your story, but I'd rather win minds with my logic.

Yeah... I was talking about myself and kiwirob....

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 69):
The foster system is underfunded, crowded, and rife with some of the most awful treatment of children I've ever heard about. If I was in the same position as the OP's niece, I would either get an abortion or keep the baby. Giving it up for adoption would not even be considered unless it was a close friend or family member taking the baby in.

Why????? I'm sorry, that's completely ignorant. Hoards of people flock to China, Russia, all over the globe to adopt children. There are so many opportunities for them that ARE and could be right here at home! How on earth can you summarily dismiss an adoption?

Why? Would the questions eat at you? Would it not be an easily, quick, clean enough solution for you, that might introduce unwanted feelings and increased shades of grey that make up our very existence?

That's the problem with kiwirob, you, and perhaps society in general. It's all about you-you-you, me! me! me!, isn't it? What utter selfishness. News flash. It's not all about YOU.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 69):
Anyway, your comment bothers the hell out of me:

Oh? I'm sorry.. he who clearly has no idea what he's talking about on the matter, basking in his own ignorance of lack of wonderful adoption options around. Au contraire, mon frere. So you sit here telling someone whos been (briefly) in foster care and adopted how awful the 'system' is and how you'd never even consider such things! And MY comments are the ones to 'bother the hell out of YOU!!

I can only hope you don't conduct all facets of your life with the same haphazard cost benefit analyses perpetually only asking 'whats in it for me?' Abortion is a bad thing and should be avoided when reasonably possible. Should something like this pop up in your own life I hope you have the courage to ask yourself the question you don't want to answer. At risk of being implicated with the religious right again, all this willy-nilly treatment of abortion like it's no big deal is a sign of a morally bankrupt society.

Goodness.

[Edited 2013-05-19 15:41:38]

[Edited 2013-05-19 15:44:16]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 70):
Abortion is a bad thing and should be avoided when reasonably possible.

Why?

All I hear is that it is a terrible thing yet I never hear the why.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

If you have to ask, you will never understand.


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2839 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 70):
Yeah... I was talking about myself and kiwirob....

My mistake.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 70):
Why????? I'm sorry, that's completely ignorant. Hoards of people flock to China, Russia, all over the globe to adopt children. There are so many opportunities for them that ARE and could be right here at home! How on earth can you summarily dismiss an adoption?

I know a three families that have adopted overseas, one from Russia (twins), and the other two from China. Two of the three couples have openly admitted that they wanted to raise a newborn and that they went overseas to adopt because the system here made it extremely difficult for them to do so.

Many couples aren't going overseas because there are a lack of children to be adopted here. They're going because they prefer to adopt newborns over kids who are of school age.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 70):
That's the problem with kiwirob, you, and perhaps society in general. It's all about you-you-you, me! me! me!, isn't it? What utter selfishness. News flash. It's not all about YOU.

I'm trying to spare children the experience of having to jump from foster home to foster, yet I'm being selfish in your words? You might have to explain that one a little more indepth.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 70):
Oh? I'm sorry.. he who clearly has no idea what he's talking about on the matter, basking in his own ignorance of lack of wonderful adoption options around. Au contraire, mon frere. So you sit here telling someone whos been (briefly) in foster care and adopted how awful the 'system' is and how you'd never even consider such things! And MY comments are the ones to 'bother the hell out of YOU!!

I'm glad it worked out for you.

All I know is my adopted ex-girlfriend would become distraught at the very mention of adoption. Even though she ended up being adopted by a fantastic, loving couple, her experience with adoption (which wasn't brief) is a point of great pain for her. I've spent, literally, entire nights having to console her. But yeah, I know nothing  

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. I thought you were capable of a civil, insightful debate, but your continuous descents into condescension clearly tell otherwise.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 72):
If you have to ask, you will never understand.


Well, I'm curious. I don't need to understand nor agree.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 57):
I think it's a perfectly healthy perspective on life. Too many people bring kids into unhealthy or just terrible situations, financially, mentally, physically, whatever. Deciding that you're not going to do so is, I think, a smart choice, even if abortions are rather off-putting, to say the least.

I'm sorry, you're just never going to convince me that death is a better alternative to life, no matter how bad the situation may be. Alfred Lord Tennyson framed it best IMO, "It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" which I think can similarly be applied to life.


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 73):


All I know is my adopted ex-girlfriend would become distraught at the very mention of adoption. Even though she ended up being adopted by a fantastic, loving couple, her experience with adoption (which wasn't brief) is a point of great pain for her. I've spent, literally, entire nights having to console her. But yeah, I know nothing  

Great. Hopefully you didn't console her by telling her if the choice had been yours, you'd have sent her to the rubbish bin before even considering an adoption.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 73):

I'm trying to spare children the experience of having to jump from foster home to foster, yet I'm being selfish in your words? You might have to explain that one a little more indepth.

What a shock. You pick the worst case, unlikely scenario to build your entire justification on. Guess what? You can even begin arranging things before you need to make the decision. You're telling me if you began to explore the options, found some couple that you felt good about, that you would not even consider this adoption?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 73):
I thought you were capable of a civil, insightful debate, but your continuous descents into condescension clearly tell otherwise.

No real loss to the discourse here. Perhaps we can converse again once you realize the universe does not simply revolve around you.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

I must say, this entire conversation has been most enlightening to me.

Typically, when you'd think of the 'religious right' or the conservative side of this issue, stereotypically an unwavering dogma would come to mind, with stubborn stands and little care or empathy for the involved parties.

Paradoxically, I am the one who has not even come out saying that abortion should be illegal, just that it is usually not the most desirable or morally sound option.

On the other hand, we have Mr. Get an abortion if you're Smart, and Mr. I won't even consider an adoption.

Really turns the whole open/close minded stereotypes on their head, I feel.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 77):
On the other hand, we have Mr. Get an abortion if you're Smart, and Mr. I won't even consider an adoption.

I love watching 'debates' like this--they entertain me... Everyone knows that they won't be able to win over the other.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 77):
morally sound option.

I'm still waiting for this explanation.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

There's nothing I can explain. It either bothers you or it doesn't.


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 79):

It either bothers you or it doesn't.

That's absurd. You contend one side of the argument with the warrant of it being 'morally sound', yet you provide no reasoning for it. Morality is not something that is set in stone; you are not morally superior, if you will, because you are against abortion.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 76):
Great. Hopefully you didn't console her by telling her if the choice had been yours, you'd have sent her to the rubbish bin before even considering an adoption.

What a horrible thing to say!  Wow! You might not agree with my opinions, but at least I haven't degraded to taking personal shots at you.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 75):
I'm sorry, you're just never going to convince me that death is a better alternative to life, no matter how bad the situation may be.

What about the extreme situations such as rape/incest/ectopic pregnancy/etc? (not sure if you touched on that already or not...)

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 75):
Alfred Lord Tennyson framed it best IMO, "It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" which I think can similarly be applied to life.

A great quote indeed, but I disagree with the comparison. For reasons already outlined above, there are circumstances where not having the life would be better than the ensuing [potential] life.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 78):
I love watching 'debates' like this--they entertain me

Childish name-calling stopped being entertaining to me when I left elementary school.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 81):

Childish name-calling stopped being entertaining to me when I left elementary school.

The name calling bit is useless--for that I can tune into Fox or MSNBC--rather, I enjoy the futile attempt to try to get the other to believe in your conviction. The rift between the pro-lifers and the pro-choice camp is one that can't be changed at all due to the nature of the topic. Once people think that 'morality' is involved, good luck...



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 82):
I enjoy the futile attempt to try to get the other to believe in your conviction. The rift between the pro-lifers and the pro-choice camp is one that can't be changed at all due to the nature of the topic. Once people think that 'morality' is involved, good luck...

Well there is something to be said about the lack of religious arguments used. That's definitely a step forward!



Flying refined.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10101 posts, RR: 26
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2778 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 75):
I'm sorry, you're just never going to convince me that death is a better alternative to life, no matter how bad the situation may be. Alfred Lord Tennyson framed it best IMO, "It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" which I think can similarly be applied to life.

Nothing to be sorry for. I'm not trying to convince you.

Though, if you never lived, you would never actually know you had a choice, etc.

I don't personally have a real problem with death. It's a common side effect of life.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2778 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 80):
Morality is not something that is set in stone

Then why are you asking me to bring out the chisel?? I can't explain to you why aren't morally opposed to abortion. Sometimes it comes from religion, sometimes it comes from empathetic feelings, sometimes it comes from staring your own morality in the face and thinking 'that could've been me, sometimes it comes from different thoughts on when 'life' begins and when a baby truly becomes a baby.

I said its not the most morally sound option. That's how I feel. Depending on the case, I will feel varying degrees of support or regret, there certainly be a lot of gray.

If you really can't have anything to do with the father, can't support the child yourself at that point in life, then fine. I'd hope you put a lot of thought into things and it be taken very seriously. If you're fortunate enough to look for and find a person/couple wanting a child, and make this arrangement in the early stages of the pregnancy, there is nothing you can do or say that would make an abortion a better or morally superior option. I can't further explain that feeling, because I just don't understand it. It does require substantial sacrifice and selflessness from the mother, but I simply think it is the right thing to do.

I think most people would agree with me on that, which in a discussion of morality, those majority view inevitably account for the general societal mores/norms.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 82):
I enjoy the futile attempt to try to get the other to believe in your conviction. The rift between the pro-lifers and the pro-choice camp is one that can't be changed at all due to the nature of the topic. Once people think that 'morality' is involved, good luck...

This rift here has been a rift AMONG 'pro-choicers'. And I really fail to see where i've been the one with the unwavering convictions.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 81):

What a horrible thing to say!   You might not agree with my opinions, but at least I haven't degraded to taking personal shots at you.

Why? Just because I used your own words against you? I really fail to see how someone seemingly against the concept of adoption could suitably console an adoptee. Blame yourself for being unwilling to consider one of the best options out there.

[Edited 2013-05-19 16:47:30]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 85):
I think most people would agree with me on that, which in a discussion of morality, those majority view inevitably account for the general societal mores/norms.

Indeed; however, in a situation such as this which is inherently divisive we can't arrive at a consensus. Considering that, in theory, matters of public policy are made with morality in mind (in theory being key) it makes it a fascinating issue.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 83):

Well there is something to be said about the lack of religious arguments used. That's definitely a step forward!

Frankly, there are so many contradictions in those arguments that it'd be painful, although those which are merely ''because I feel that way' are similarly difficult.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

The only thing I am trying to convince anyone of is to be more open minded in these matters about alternatives and success stories different from their preferred way of dealing with these pregnancies.

Frankly, I feel treated like i'm somone saying- I get to choose what you do with your body because I feel that way. That is nowhere near the case.

If i am the most ardent or frustrating 'anti-abortion advocate' you guys come across, consider it a blessed existence.

[Edited 2013-05-19 17:00:54]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 90, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 89):
If i am the most ardent or frustrating 'anti-abortion advocate' you guys come across, consider it a blessed existence.

I haven't heard a peep about religion from you, so you're one of the better ones...

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 86):

unwavering convictions.

I meant that only in the sense of, considering what you believe to be moral and not, you're not to be easily of a different mind.

Nothing wrong with that.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 91, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 80):
That's absurd. You contend one side of the argument with the warrant of it being 'morally sound', yet you provide no reasoning for it. Morality is not something that is set in stone; you are not morally superior, if you will, because you are against abortion.

I think it's quite simple, you think it's bad because you're killing a baby or you think it's moral to remove a clump of cells before it gets born in lousy circumstances and it leaves choice to the individual (and doesn't consider the baby because it's seen as not a person yet.)

Be on either side, that's what I see the argument is. I think the whole "pro-choicers are evil and are baby killers" is a bad argument that completely misses the pro-choice point of view, and from the other side the "pro-lifers want to control women and are for government intrusion" also misses the point.

I think you can sum up 90% of the argument and people's stance on the subject by asking when someone becomes a person. If you personally see it at conception and back it up with something solid, how can you not see them being against abortion? And if you see a fetus as a lump of cells, why call them a baby killer when they legitimately don't think it's a baby?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2732 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 91):
I think you can sum up 90% of the argument and people's stance on the subject by asking when someone becomes a person. If you personally see it at conception and back it up with something solid, how can you not see them being against abortion? And if you see a fetus as a lump of cells, why call them a baby killer when they legitimately don't think it's a baby?

Agreed. This is what the whole argument comes down to. Pro-lifers don't want to abort because they think it's killing another human being, while the pro-choice camp doesn't see the fetus as a person.

The moral justification, depending on the way one views morality, may or may not be there. Pro-lifers certainly don't see it as such; meanwhile, the pro-choice people do not see the fetus as a human being and feel morally justified.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 93, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 85):
I think most people would agree with me on that, which in a discussion of morality, those majority view inevitably account for the general societal mores/norms.

They may agree (at least in the US) but they don't fix their adoption system nor help young mothers etc., so it's hypocritical at best.

In France abortion in such cases is hugely favored including by the state, it's easily obtainable, including for minors without consent of parents, it's paid for by the state, and few people oppose that (although for a few years now "pro-lifers" directly inspired by the US have appeared, but they're really few and not very vocal).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 94, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 93):
They may agree (at least in the US) but they don't fix their adoption system nor help young mothers etc., so it's hypocritical at best.

Extremely hypocritical, especially when you look at the Tea Party. On one hand, they advocate for the end of abortion--fair enough--but on the other, they also advocate for the reduction of social services.

What sense does that make?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 95, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2366 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 94):
Extremely hypocritical, especially when you look at the Tea Party. On one hand, they advocate for the end of abortion--fair enough--but on the other, they also advocate for the reduction of social services.

What sense does that make?

I wouldn't say it's hypocritical, but I definitely think there are better options. I think it's more of the tough love kind of thinking--you made the baby, you will not kill it, and you got pregnant, good luck providing. Again, I disagree with that line of thinking, but I think it's at least a consistent line of thinking.

I personally view abortion as killing, although I understand people disagree with that so I don't think of them as monsters. I know my line of thinking is in the minority as well, so I pick my battles better and go against later term abortions (which happily, I seem to be in the majority on) and I'm all for funding the alternatives to abortion. I think we are somewhat held responsible when a woman aborts the baby/fetus when we tell her not to yet don't provide an alternate that won't ruin her life, even if it was her mistake to begin with. But I guess all that is for another thread. I do hope your niece chooses to keep the baby and it all works out



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2321 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 95):
I think it's more of the tough love kind of thinking--you made the baby, you will not kill it, and you got pregnant, good luck providing. Again, I disagree with that line of thinking, but I think it's at least a consistent line of thinking.

It, frankly, doesn't make any sense. The 'tough love' kind of thinking is not one of a civilized society; we are to care for those that can't care for themselves... like the innocent children. They have no reason to be living in sub-standard conditions, yet the Tea Party line of thinking would not only cause them to be born but to live in said conditions.

Senseless.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

Just spent a long time on the phone with her, she is scared (understandably so). The father of the baby is pressuring her to abort (she does not want to), and her mom refuses to allow her to live at home anymore (baby or not). She is in a tough spot, I dont know what to do for her.

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 97):
her mom refuses to allow her to live at home anymore (baby or not). She is in a tough spot, I dont know what to do for her.

Is her mom your sister? I think having a very serious conversation with her about family support would be a good start.

Your niece made a foolish decision that resulted in this situation, but she doesn't deserve to be kicked out...



Flying refined.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 97):
and her mom refuses to allow her to live at home anymore

Way to go mom. Your kid is dealing with the biggest issue she has faced in her life and you decide to make it tougher   

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 97):
I dont know what to do for her

Here is what I would do. Take her to a place where you can talk. Tell her that no matter what she decides you will always be there to support her. Then have her describe the options and what is good, bad, and what needs to happen for each of them. Should help her think it through. Highlight things she may be missing but never judge or make a preference. You're just there to help her get her head around the situation she is in.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14072 posts, RR: 62
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 99):
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 97):
I dont know what to do for her

Here is what I would do. Take her to a place where you can talk. Tell her that no matter what she decides you will always be there to support her. Then have her describe the options and what is good, bad, and what needs to happen for each of them. Should help her think it through. Highlight things she may be missing but never judge or make a preference. You're just there to help her get her head around the situation she is in.

I agree. And if necessary, offer her (and the baby) to stay with you.

Jan


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5714 posts, RR: 44
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2216 times:
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Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 97):
The father of the baby is pressuring her to abort

So this part doesn't look like working out..

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece thinks he will leave his wife and family and they will live happily ever after.

I am not going to enter into the Anti/Pro Abortion debate or US social security issue,

What I will say, the one thing your niece can use now is support, right with CMF there.
Two of my sisters had children very young, younger indeed than your niece. My sisters both went on to very successful and fulfilling lives, the young ladies born to my sisters, one is the founder and CEO of a major international organisation focused on providing access to literature and libraries for people in developing countries, the other a full time mother and successful producer of musical theatre.
Sure there were difficult times but what makes the difference in these situations is the support, especially family support.
Doesn't sound like she is getting much of that except from you.

Hell, having a baby at 19/20 is not the end of the world... lots of worse things could happen. You can't undo anything that has happened and you don't have to like it but you can help your niece look forward to the future.

Best of luck to you and your niece



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10763 posts, RR: 9
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
The father of her baby is 46 years old. He is the father of the family that she has been babysitting for the past couple of years.
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I am so mad at this guy for taking advantage of my niece words cannot even describe my rage...

Disgusting. I´d for sure plan something for him. He is responsible for destroying two families. Nothing to let him get away with it.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece just turned 19, which IMHO is way to young to have a baby from a maturity standpoint.

I am the godfather to two little girls, who are very pretty. Fortunately much to young for a problem like this, I sincerely hope to never witness that.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece thinks he will leave his wife and family and they will live happily ever after. Fat chance.

Looks like she saw too many bad films and doesnt have a clue what it means having a man 26 years older. Fat chance there wont be too much romance left after he turns 60.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5714 posts, RR: 44
Reply 103, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2198 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 102):
Disgusting. I´d for sure plan something for him. He is responsible for destroying two families. Nothing to let him get away with it.

I totally understand this but for your niece and her baby, you and her immediate family need to put this behind you AND NOW!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 104, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 70):
That's the problem with kiwirob, you, and perhaps society in general. It's all about you-you-you, me! me! me!, isn't it? What utter selfishness. News flash. It's not all about YOU.

So you're saying that a woman should go through 9 not very pleasant months to have a baby which she doesn't want just to give it to some people that are unable to have children of there own? That's highly selfish of you for thinking that way.


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 105, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 104):

So you're saying that a woman should go through 9 not very pleasant months to have a baby which she doesn't want just to give it to some people that are unable to have children of there own? That's highly selfish of you for thinking that way.

What is selfish of me? What do I get out of this arrangement?

[Edited 2013-05-23 13:17:53]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 106, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 104):
So you're saying that a woman should go through 9 not very pleasant months to have a baby which she doesn't want just to give it to some people that are unable to have children of there own? That's highly selfish of you for thinking that way.

Not if you believe the fetus is a baby, killing it would be the selfish thing. Not sure if that is what jpetekyxmd80 is saying, but please at least try to see it from another person's point of view. I highly doubt he is saying for the niece should be inconvenienced all that time because of 'others who want to adopt'



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 107, posted (1 year 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

Many embryos are kept frozen, should women line up to carry them ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineidealstandard From France, joined Apr 2009, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (1 year 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 1758 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
kiwirob, you really oughta quit while you're behind.

Seriously.

As per usual I'm with Kiwirob, he is straight forward and succinct. You can pussy foot around the situation as much as you want but it won't help.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14072 posts, RR: 62
Reply 109, posted (1 year 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 104):
So you're saying that a woman should go through 9 not very pleasant months to have a baby which she doesn't want just to give it to some people that are unable to have children of there own? That's highly selfish of you for thinking that way.

It rather looks as if she wants to have the baby and he wants her to get rid of it. It would defintely be the easy way out for him, no child support to pay and maybe saving his marriage. She would get stuck, e.g. like my sister, always wondering what a person the child she aborted would have turned out to be. When my ex got pregnant of me when we both were in our early 20s, we decided to go on (though with the full support of my parents). Even after we broke up and my ex and our daughter were living in the US, I still continued to pay child support until she was 18. If she would have continued school, I would have continued to pay. The guy who got HER pregnant when she was 18, though an ex-gangsta and ex-con and in his 30s, took the responsibility and is working his @rrse off as a builder to support her and their children. He also broke with his old gang buddies and they even moved to another state to get away from the gang business For this I respect him (they are not married, but are living together as a couple). He seems to be taking good care of my daughter.
I´m not religious at all, but I see it like this:
1) for the man: You stick it in, you are responsible for the outcome.
2) for the woman: it is her body and her mind, which are mostly affected, so if she wants to keep the baby, it is her choice. This doesn´t change anything with the man´s responsibility.

The only issue I could not resolve yet is what happens if the guy wants to keep the child, but she wants to have an abortion, but this is the minority of cases. Mostly it is the guy who had his fun, but doesn´t want to accept his responsibility.

Jan


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 110, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 109):

It rather looks as if she wants to have the baby and he wants her to get rid of it.

I don't see where you got this from?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 109):
She would get stuck, e.g. like my sister, always wondering what a person the child she aborted would have turned out to be.

Best not to think about it then, it won't get you anywhere.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 111, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Either it's the woman choice or it is not.

Either women can enjoy sex or they can't.

Either there was a sexual revolution or there wasn't.

Either we live in a paternalistic society or we don't.

I don't see why it's the man responsibility as if the woman wasn't part of the equation, we're not talking about a rape (does a rapist have to pay child support, by the way ?).

With choice comes responsibility, if the man has no say, then he has no responsibility. There is marriage if you want commitment from the man.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
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