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My Highest Respect To The British NHS  
User currently offlinebaexecutive From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 755 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5065 times:

National Health Saver

What an institution, if ever I was proud to be British it would be now.....we have a universal healthcare, regardless how rich or poor you are, you are human....and will be treated as such....my highest respect goes out to the British NHS....alight in a dark world.

189 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5000 times:

Land in a dark place?   How does this compare to the Canadian system?


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4982 times:

If it was so good, why does the government threaten us with prison time if we refuse to pay for it?

I think it's a hideous institution. Something so monolithic cannot be efficient. The amount you pay is determined by how productive you are and not how well you look after your health. The level of service you get is determined by bureaucrats and not by how much you've contributed to society. Plus there's little incentive to bring costs down or improve service.

It creates a set of incentives which mirrors the appalling set of incentives that have destroyed this country.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27241 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4966 times:

The NHS is the best part of living in the UK. Healthcare for all and especially for people that have no money. Sure it has its problems but with such a huge organisation its expected. I'm sure there could be more positive changes to cut out money wasting but its one of the few British institutions still worth keeping.

People often give out about having to pay into it but they are usually the ones who have money to pay for private health care and don't give a damn about their fellow citizens. That's just selfish and arrogant on their part.

Living abroad I know what its like not to have a NHS and the costs involved should you get sick. Ireland is one place that if you get sick just to get into the Dr its around EUR50 and thats without your medication . Getting the flu can often set you back EUR130.

I hope the NHS is always there.   


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4965 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
That's just selfish and arrogant on their part.

What's more selfish, earning money yourself to pay for something, or stealing it from someone else to pay for it?

You know I don't think it's the latter.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

Like all health-care systems, it has it's flaws, strengths, weaknesses, if it was being started today it would be done differently. But it was set up in 1948, when an elected government, with one of the most solid mandates in British electoral history (in both seats in the Commons and share of the vote), did what they said they would do.
Don't see much of that now do we?

They did so after surmounting fierce opposition from the medical establishment (or at least those who ran it, being for the proposed system did not make doctors popular with the upper management). However, while concessions were made for consultants and their private practice, what really tipped the scales were the results of polling that showed just how popular the idea of the system was with the public and therefore also showing just how much the scare tactics by the medical establishment had fallen on deaf ears.
Listen to the people and not vested interest and lobby groups? Yes, it really did happen!

Prime Minister Attlee knew how to run a Cabinet and knew how to delegate. He let Health Secretary Nye Bevan get on with the job. Yes, PM's did used to do that!
Bevan, a MP for a poor Welsh mining community, had before the war, set up local co-operatives in his constituency to provide basic health care, funded via members of the community paying in a levy to provide for them and their families when the need arose.
This he extended into the National Insurance system for the NHS.

All this in run down, war damaged, worn out, financially stricken Britain.
Still, the original ideas for the NHS and more besides, had come from the Wartime report from Liberal Peer Lord Beveridge, his report on post war measures to end the appalling poverty, lack of health care, housing and other social ills that so blighted inter war Britain, was a best seller when published mid way through the war when victory was still not assured.
It was a sort of contract with the people, keep fighting, keep toiling, endure the wartime privations, in return there would not be a return to the conditions endured after WW1 had ended and which were still a bitter memory for many.

My parents as children had known what it is to have family members suffer health problems but not have to money to even see a doctor.
There were millions like them.

Ironically, it was the implementation of very minor charges for some services, like glasses and dentures, brought in to fund the rearmament for the UK contribution to the Korean War in 1950 and other defence commitments, that caused a fissure in the now exhausted government (most had been in senior positions in the wartime Coalition since 1940 too), which led to their defeat in 1951. Though they still got more votes just less seats in Parliament.

I point this out since inevitably this thread will attract comments, mostly from across the pond, about 'socialists, commies' etc. Yeah, what a red government Attlee's was.
Let's see, second largest commitment after the US to Korea, same with the Berlin Airlift, a leading light in the formation of NATO, was fighting Soviet influence across the globe for the first couple of post war year while the US de-mobilised, leading to the only time conscription was re-introduced outside of a world war in 1947, (the Marshall Plan came out of warnings that the UK government could not afford all of these commitments and much of Europe still might fall under Stalin's influence yet).
This government also started the UK nuclear bomb program after the US ended agreements on Atomic technology and threw the sizable UK scientific contribution to the Manhattan Project out of the country.

Worth noting that while recently we heard much about how Thatcher changed to political weather, made changes that the opposition had to in broad terms accept, the same was even more true in 1951. The Tories had not only to accept the NHS which they had opposed, (a reason Churchill lost in 1945, despite the huge affection for him was his opposition to the idea of a NHS), as my Dad said of him 'he was a great war leader but bloody useless in peacetime', they also had to commit to maintaining and improving it, if they wanted to get re-elected.
Pragmatism and reality over dogma, I bet the current Tory PM wishes he could, on for example Europe, have that same power over his fractious party now.

Do changes, evolution, have to be a part of running the NHS now? Of course, despite some saying otherwise, this has been the case for it's whole history. Do I trust the current government with it? Not entirely.
However, the one PM who would have deep down liked to have ended it, despite what was said in public, was Thatcher but even at the height of her powers she knew she could not and still stay in power for long.

Because that's the reality of it, the idea of a health system free at the point of use, funded from taxation and national insurance, is as uncontroversial in the UK as say votes for women.

My own experience with it, especially since being diagnosed in 2000 with a serious condition, has been very positive.
I only have to worry about looking after myself, taking the medical advice, not if I can afford the range of medication that keeps me relatively healthy, which means I have always kept on working and therefore paying my tax and National Insurance which funds the NHS.
I believe that is called a virtuous circle!


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4939 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 4):
What's more selfish, earning money yourself to pay for something, or stealing it from someone else to pay for it?
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 4):
What's more selfish, earning money yourself to pay for something, or stealing it from someone else to pay for it?

You know I don't think it's the latter.

Then stand for political office, UKIP will have you, (just wait until their policies really come under scrutiny).
I read an interview with one of them, a swivel eyed loony of a farmer who said almost exactly what you keep banging on about though he was a bit stuck when asked abut health care provision. (Who would also have been happily taking those various EU subsidies that help keep him in business. Mr Farage himself loves his EU Parliament expenses and several of their MEP's have been done for benefit fraud, one went to jail for defrauding the British social security system).

The society to seem to desire, does exist in places, Somalia for example. Off you trot there then, see how long you last. If not, why not? Live by your strong convictions. I dare you.
You might want to consider the notion that 'taxation is the price we pay for a civilised society'.

If you are ever unlucky enough to need that institution you call 'hideous', a medical emergency that the private sector cannot and will not provide (that is anything serious and/or sudden), you will I take it refuse it, if you are able to?
Even a very wealthy person which private provision of the best kind, will need the NHS if in a bad car crash, or a sudden event like a stroke, or heart attack.

Your profile shows you as still a young person, you might feel it now, but you are not immortal or superman.
You'll need the NHS at some time in your life, actually if you've been born and brought up here you already have done so, plenty of times.

[Edited 2013-05-19 03:44:36]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27241 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
My own experience with it, especially since being diagnosed in 2000 with a serious condition, has been very positive.
I only have to worry about looking after myself, taking the medical advice, not if I can afford the range of medication that keeps me relatively healthy, which means I have always kept on working and therefore paying my tax and National Insurance which funds the NHS.
I believe that is called a virtuous circle!

Very well said. I would hate to get to a society where people just care about themselves and dont care if others die because they cant afford the medication to survive. Thank god none of those horrible individuals in my circle of colleagues/friends and Family.


User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4926 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
I point this out since inevitably this thread will attract comments, mostly from across the pond, about 'socialists, commies' etc. Yeah, what a red government Attlee's was.
Let's see, second largest commitment after the US to Korea, same with the Berlin Airlift, a leading light in the formation of NATO, was fighting Soviet influence across the globe for the first couple of post war year while the US de-mobilised, leading to the only time conscription was re-introduced outside of a world war in 1947, (the Marshall Plan came out of warnings that the UK government could not afford all of these commitments and much of Europe still might fall under Stalin's influence yet).
This government also started the UK nuclear bomb program after the US ended agreements on Atomic technology and threw the sizable UK scientific contribution to the Manhattan Project out of the country.


It looks like you're the one hoping to "attract comments from across the pond" by inciting these topic points as some sort of bait. You made the topic, and listed an entire paragraph on Britains achievements post WWII. I guess I, in reading this thread, am not sure what you are hoping for. A little pre emptive strike when nothing has been thrown out yet?

From what I understand, the NHS is not exactly 'free'. Is the government really that benevolent to provide an entirely free healthcare? I pretty much understood your citizens pay taxes towards it,, not to mention potentially other taxes on good and services (electornics, petrol/gas, imports). Maybe that new Bedroom tax which is causing issues in the UK contributes towards it as well?. As another poster mentioned, not everybody wants to pay into it, but begrudgingly do so for fear of prosecution? I"m certainly not well versed on the topic and love to hear others. I , like many other Americans, am on the fence about a national health care.

I"m guessing there are isses too as I remember a NY times article about 4 years ago on Britains having to pull their ow teeth due to a lack of NHS dental providers. Then I read this article just last week:

"Now we pull out our own teeth: Boom in DIY dental kits as patients cannot afford NHS fees"
THOUSANDS of Britons are carrying out DIY dentistry, pulling their own teeth with pliers and using household glue to stick down fillings.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/health...as-patients-cannot-afford-NHS-fees

Good or bad, true or false, it looks like there are ongoing kinks to work out?


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27241 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4920 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 8):
As another poster mentioned, not everybody wants to pay into it, but begrudgingly do so for fear of prosecution? I"m certainly not well versed on the topic and love to hear others. I , like many other Americans, am on the fence about a national health care.

Not everyone wants to pay taxes but they have to. You cant pick and choose what you pay for as part of a society otherwise it wouldnt function. Different countries have different systems and having lived in UK USA Greece and Ireland I have found the UK's NHS to be the best.

Of course there will be news reports and horror stories that one can focus on but the everyday life saving operations and people who need medication and cant afford it go un reported. Millions benefit and the NHS is a very diverse institution. My Mother was at risk of loosing her sight a few years back and the treatment she received from the NHS was second to none. Then again she paid in via taxes all her life so we were glad of the system.

There are some issues which I think need to be changed like ''tourism'' patients coming in and using the service. I believe if you are not resident in the UK then you should not be enttiled to anything other than emergency treatment unless there is a reciprocal arrangement as there is with EU states.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
I only have to worry about looking after myself, taking the medical advice, not if I can afford the range of medication that keeps me relatively healthy, which means I have always kept on working and therefore paying my tax and National Insurance which funds the NHS.
I believe that is called a virtuous circle!

So goes the argument but why not just pay for it yourself instead of via NI and Tax. That way you're more encouraged to work harder because you're not getting so penalised and more encouraged to economise on healthcare = a better economy for everyone to enjoy.

Personally i think we should at least be able to opt out of the NHS's elective services and be paid a block of what the average per capita costs would be of you using the NHS. That way at least there would be some kind of choice to compare to. And over time everyone might choose to opt out and the NHS would disappear. Or maybe everyone would choose to keep it, who knows.

I find it very frustrating after already paying healthcare for about 5 people via tax contributions i then have to pay again if i want better healthcare. My local doctor hardly ever answers the phone. The staff are completely rude and they rarely have convenient slots for me so i end up having to take a half day if which just wastes a load more money.

The great problem with the healthcare debate is that the only country with supposedly private healthcare has made such a hash of it through various government distortions it's impossible to point to an example of how it could work better.

Of course we can't really afford the NHS any more anyway at least nowhere near the same extent, but as you point out, it's a religion over here and no political party can even touch it. And such it is basically going to finish us off.


User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4919 times:

When deciding about whether health care should be free or not, I always go back to when I was 19. I was drunk, slipped and broke my leg. Completely my fault. The Australian version of NHS, Medicare, covered it entirely; from emergency room fees, to surgery to physiotherapy. I didn't have private health insurance (neither did my parents) and if I had to pay for it myself, I probably would have had to go bankrupt. It would have cost between $5,000 to $10,000 without Medicare. (Side note... the same work would have costed between $35,000 and $50,000 in America, so the doctors said).

Before that injury, I used to always complain about paying the $500 a year out of my tax to pay for Medicare. Since it, I have absolutely no problem paying it. Why? Because no one should have to go bankrupt and/or not get medical treatment because of lack of financial ability.

I always think of a person with no insurance in America who is completely healthy, going about their day, driving along the road while it's raining and BOOM, they run their car into a tree. Not only have they lost their car, but they also have to pay the exhorbant medical fees. My heart goes out to the stories like this everyday.

I find it incomprehensible that certain countries don't have universal health care for their citizens. (Note: the keyword is citizens.... maybe something America needs to look at while structuring their health. In Australia... no proof of citizenship, credit card payment first please!)


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4911 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 6):
Then stand for political office, UKIP will have you, (just wait until their policies really come under scrutiny).

No thanks. I'm not a big fan of UKIP though they are probably the best of a sorry bunch but not by much - they've got some pretty hideous policies of their own.

Quoting GDB (Reply 6):
The society to seem to desire, does exist in places, Somalia for example. Off you trot there then, see how long you last. If not, why not? Live by your strong convictions. I dare you.
You might want to consider the notion that 'taxation is the price we pay for a civilised society'.

The society i desire is a better society for everyone which means a drastically smaller government, I likely just have a different idea on how to achieve a civilised society. (i'm not an anarchist btw, Geolibertarian if you must know, i mean i've studied the "Anarcho-capitalist" line of thought but i've concluded it would just result in a - possibly more tyrannous - government anyway)

Can you look at the state of the UK's finances and tell us our government has served us well? This country's economy is a complete basket case and we're going to embark on a very steady downward trend in our standard of living over the next 5 to 10 years - rather like what happened to Argentina.

I think the point still stands though. You can't call rich people selfish whilst the entire leftist position is based upon on theft anyway. Discuss the potential outcomes by all means but don't call it something it isn't.

[Edited 2013-05-19 04:36:22]

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4905 times:

I am extremely proud of the fact that I help pay for access to healthcare for everyone in the country. I am also impressed with the way they have saved the lives of both myself, and of people I know and love. I agree with the OP that it's one of the best things we have in this country, and something we do right to be proud of.

All the "let them eat cake" types can just take their selfish, greedy ways elsewhere. We should help those less fortunate than ourselves.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27241 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 13):
I am extremely proud of the fact that I help pay for access to healthcare for everyone in the country. I am also impressed with the way they have saved the lives of both myself, and of people I know and love. I agree with the OP that it's one of the best things we have in this country, and something we do right to be proud of.

Indeed its not until something really goes wrong in your life that you realise how fortunate we are to have the NHS. If someone is that wealthy then they are well fit to contribute to the state system then go private. Its worked for decades and works well.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 13):
All the "let them eat cake" types can just take their selfish, greedy ways elsewhere. We should help those less fortunate than ourselves.

Very well said.


User currently offlinemmo From Qatar, joined Apr 2013, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4874 times:

Having lived in both countries, I would like to add my thoughts.

First of all, for the life of me I can not understand how a civilized first world country, US, can not have a minimum healthcare for all it's residents. We can argue over who is entitled and who is not, but the simple fact is if you have a major health issue or accident you could be SOL!! I have friends who worked for UA/US who lost their medical coverage when they were furloughed and they were in a real bad bind. Why should a society as a whole not provide of people in that situation.

While the NHS is not perfect, it does work pretty well. As I get older my joints don't work as they used to. I have had a knuckle replaced by the NHS. I had to wait about 4 month but it was not a long time and certainly very doable. A lot of how the NHS works depends on where you live. Being fortunate to live in the S/SE of the UK, the standard of care is much higher there than it is up north.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 10):
My local doctor hardly ever answers the phone. The staff are completely rude and they rarely have convenient slots for me so i end up having to take a half day if which just wastes a load more money.

How is that a NHS problem??? To me it sounds like you need to move surgeries. Our surgery has a system that if you can not get an appointment during the day, you come in after 4:30pm and you will be seen by a physician. I have used that a couple of times and have only waited maybe 15 minutes. I would certainly not blame NHS but again the local surgery and suggest you talk to the practice manager.

Anyhow, I personally am embarrassed when getting into discussions about health care in America or the lack of it. It is a crime to know there is not a basic level of medical care. My father was a physician and he always said the US should go to a national health care system. In essence it already had one. The two groups that drive health care costs are Medicare and Insurance Companies. A friend of mine who is a retired AA Captain, went into his doctor to have a hearing aid replaced. He was concerned about having to bear the cost and inquired. After some discussion, the price was going to be about $5000. The physician asked about the AA retiree's health care and my friend said he still had it but he was not sure if it would survive bankruptcy proceedings. No problem, order one now at $8000 and the insurance will pay for it at a negotiated price. Why the difference????

Just my thoughts. I know no system is perfect, but I do feel it is a disgrace there is no minimum health care coverage in the US.



If we weren't all crazy we would all go insane
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 8):
It looks like you're the one hoping to "attract comments from across the pond" by inciting these topic points as some sort of bait. You made the topic, and listed an entire paragraph on Britains achievements post WWII. I guess I, in reading this thread, am not sure what you are hoping for. A little pre emptive strike when nothing has been thrown out yet?
Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 8):
It looks like you're the one hoping to "attract comments from across the pond" by inciting these topic points as some sort of bait. You made the topic, and listed an entire paragraph on Britains achievements post WWII. I guess I, in reading this thread, am not sure what you are hoping for. A little pre emptive strike when nothing has been thrown out yet?

From what I understand, the NHS is not exactly 'free'. Is the government really that benevolent to provide an entirely free healthcare? I pretty much understood your citizens pay taxes towards it,, not to mention potentially other taxes on good and services (electornics, petrol/gas, imports). Maybe that new Bedroom tax which is causing issues in the UK contributes towards it as well?. As another poster mentioned, not everybody wants to pay into it, but begrudgingly do so for fear of prosecution? I"m certainly not well versed on the topic and love to hear others. I , like many other Americans, am on the fence about a national health care.

On the first point, I am merely anticipating what will come and hope to provide some greater context on the government that formed it and the times they lived in.
I've seen Attlee called a 'Communist' on here before, from across the pond.
It's important I think to point this out, since we seen time again - most recently in 2009 in that US health care debate - the most outrageous nonsense spouted about the NHS and other comprehensive systems elsewhere.

On the NHS, it has always been through general taxation and more specifically, a system of National Insurance. This was made clear from the very start, indeed a leaflet circulated to every home in 1948 made it clear it was 'not a charity'.
Nothing to do with whatever the current (Conservative led Coalition) government are doing with other taxes.


User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4845 times:

Quoting mmo (Reply 15):
Having lived in both countries, I would like to add my thoughts.

Why does every topic have to somehow revert to the United States? How did this topic from the OP praising how he feels the NHS has benfitted him turn into an opinion fest on the US? I mean, again. and Again. It's just funny how we're dragged in kicking and screaming. Actually, you all are doing the kicking and screaming, Americans are simply stating and defending how they think things should be run IN OUR OWN COUNTRY . Be it healthcare, or gun control. There is no one America and one consensual opinion. I think the OP knew what he was doing.

I love your sentence: "Having lived in both countries, I would like to add my thoughts." My first thought was "what is the other country and thoughs about what"? . But of course I should have guessed.

If and when things change in the US whether it gun control, abortion,, health care, gay rights, marriage equality and so on, it will be due to the will and actions of its citizens . Many things have in the course of 236 years changed due to actions by the public. I was on some UK board one time and someone said "Let's shame the US into offering healthcare to its citizens." I wanted to say "beyotch, who do you think you are?"

[soapbox alert] anywhoo, I have a flu and am up and down this evening. I just spent a good amount of time discussing on another board filled with Brits on how some british reporter had to have a translator while interviewing "the people of kentucky because he coudn't understand "them" and vice versa". Turns out it was ONE mountain woman who had a strong accent. Of course those obsessed with anything America escalated that thread into how we speak, how we spell, what side of the street we drive on,, jjaywalking, and the spelling of Aluminium vs. Alooooominum. And Don't forget nucler and that important fact that Hershey tastes like vomit and is the only chocolate available in America. Y'all need to stop this America obsession. and I do mean LOL. [/off my soapbox]


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4838 times:

Aeri28, it could well be because people are regularly seeing Americans discussing the very same things on an extremely regular basis. Right now in another thread there is just such a debate going on, dominated by posters with US flags. Why are you surprised that others should want to discuss and compare when they read so much about it here?


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27241 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4838 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
Why does every topic have to somehow revert to the United States? How did this topic from the OP praising how he feels the NHS has benfitted him turn into an opinion fest on the US? I mean, again. and Again.

Well because its a prime example of how a lot of British people do not want the British system to become. Its a valid comparison. If the USA wants that system then fine its your country but we don't have to like it and it will be shown to others in the UK what the alternative is or could be. Many including myself don't like that alternative.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
Be it healthcare, or gun control. There is no one America and one consensual opinion. I think the OP knew what he was doing.

Yes the USA always has opinions on EU affairs. Recently the USA's opinion was that the UK should stay in the EU and it would be weaker outside so its a case of practice what you preach. Don't complain if we have an opinion on your internal affairs also because you have been airing your views on ours for decades. Just saying !


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4838 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 10):
So goes the argument but why not just pay for it yourself instead of via NI and Tax. That way you're more encouraged to work harder because you're not getting so penalised and more encouraged to economise on healthcare = a better economy for everyone to enjoy.

Personally i think we should at least be able to opt out of the NHS's elective services and be paid a block of what the average per capita costs would be of you using the NHS. That way at least there would be some kind of choice to compare to. And over time everyone might choose to opt out and the NHS would disappear. Or maybe everyone would choose to keep it, who knows.

I find it very frustrating after already paying healthcare for about 5 people via tax contributions i then have to pay again if i want better healthcare. My local doctor hardly ever answers the phone. The staff are completely rude and they rarely have convenient slots for me so i end up having to take a half day if which just wastes a load more money.

The great problem with the healthcare debate is that the only country with supposedly private health care has made such a hash of it through various government distortions it's impossible to point to an example of how it could work better.

Of course we can't really afford the NHS any more anyway at least nowhere near the same extent, but as you point out, it's a religion over here and no political party can even touch it. And such it is basically going to finish us off.

Well I cannot speak for your surgery, I've had no problem with mine, then again I don't go there thinking it's part of a 'hideous' institution.

What you are advocating is what was before. If you were born into anything than a pretty prosperous family and you fell sick, then tough shit.
The result was a deeply unhealthy society. Less productive and in 1939, when the call up to war came, so many recruits were unfit and unwell it took an inordinate amount of time to make them healthy.
If you think we have health issues today, it was far far worse before the NHS.
My parents could tell you that.

It's also time to end this myth about efficiency, I'm not picking on the US here deliberately, putting aside Medicare for the over 65's has a system the closest of which you seem to advocate, want to check the levels of GDP spent on health against outcomes?
The NHS spends a tiny fraction on non health activities for a start, there is not a vast marketing effort, the large amount of lobbying, the bureaucracy in maintaining this and the whole charging regime. People are still paying, whichever way you cut it. Those costs do impact on the patients.
Then check the average life expectancies between the two countries, on any measure, the NHS is doing pretty well.

The NHS is not a religion, it's far too pragmatic for that.
It won't sink us, you should know who might do that, those wonderful, under regulated financial industry, you do still remember what happened in 2008?
The disruptive elements of the Trade Unions from the 1950's to 1970's (another interest group like the bankers who thought that they were above society), were pussies by comparison to this lot.

The biggest area of government spending is the welfare, not the health, budget. By far.
You will have seen the rabble rousing from the Tories and their friends in the press (now you know why Cameron lied to the victims about phone hacking), about the 'shirkers' and such like.
They exist, however when you tell people that unemployment benefits are a mere 3% of welfare spending (government figures not that they like to mention it), they are shocked.
What is the rest?
Mostly pensions. Tell that to those who buy the PR effort from the government on this, especially if they are middle aged and more, that tends to give them pause for thought.

After all, they expect to get theirs, even if, as in most cases, they also have company and private schemes, since 'they paid into it'.
Another myth, as working people they are paying for the current pensions, when their time comes to get it, the current working population will be paying. Trouble is, the ratios between those two groups has been changing. More pensioners and fewer working people.
THAT is the challenge.

[Edited 2013-05-19 06:46:17]

User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4842 times:



Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
Why does every topic have to somehow revert to the United States? How did this topic from the OP praising how he feels the NHS has benfitted him turn into an opinion fest on the US? I mean, again. and Again. It's just funny how we're dragged in kicking and screaming. Actually, you all are doing the kicking and screaming, Americans are simply stating and defending how they think things should be run IN OUR OWN COUNTRY . Be it healthcare, or gun control. There is no one America and one consensual opinion. I think the OP knew what he was doing.

Whist i am in favour of a private healthcare solution and share the Ameican belief that healthcare is a commodity and not a right just like food and shelter. The Americans have to acknowledge that their system is (A) not free market and (B) a disaster. The American government spends a similar amount on healthcare (per head) than the UK and similar countries so it can't even be stated that it's not socialised itself.

Of course the debate shouldn't be about US vs UK because that would just be puerile nationalism, it should be about what and what does not work.

As far as i understand the 3 key distortion with healthcare system in America are...

The tax code which encourages overspend and insurance on things that simply shouldn't be insured. Additionally it needlessly ties insurance with jobs which is completely undesirable if you actually want to change jobs or be out of work.

Malpractice laws and subsequent insurance to cover malpractice - the outcomes of malpractice should all be agreed voluntarily and contractually and the government should merely enforce these contract.

Lack of insurance competition across state (or national) lines.

There are other possible issues too that i don't know in a lot of depth. Possible room for IP/Patent reforms. Also laws which deny the ability to discriminate against age and force companies to cover certain conditions.

All distortions that have no doubt been implemented in the name of good intentions and not good results.

[Edited 2013-05-19 06:35:56]

User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4823 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
What you are advocating is what was before. If you were born into anything than a pretty prosperous family and you fell sick, then tough shit.

Not really because i do believe that kids should get a chance and have funding for healthcare regardless of parental wealth. If you look at the link i posted about my political philosophy you'll notice a section about citizens dividend. Well i'd make that a citizens inheritance, so kids would have money for their their health and education and everyone would get a chance in life. Of course young people have some of the lowest healthcare costs going anyway, so in the early years when they are leaving home they should be able to afford insurance, even on a relatively (now tax free) low wage.

NB: The important thing about the above is that it's coming from a non-distortive tax which doesn't hurt the economy.

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
It won't sink us, you should know who might do that, those wonderful, under regulated financial industry, you do still remember what happened in 2008?

Nothing really to do with regulations. All to do with fiat currencies, Mr King and Mr Brown, something that came to a head in 2008 but really started in 2001. As the phrase goes, the banks got drunk but the government/central banks gave them the alcohol.

I dare say without all that we'd still be a relatively competent state even with the NHS (though it wouldn't have had as much investment during the boom years so the opinion might not be what it is as of now) never the less our reluctance to make cuts to the NHS the welfare state and other areas will finish us off. There is no serious political party in the UK that is willing to do what is right for the country and that reason is because these institutions make it politically impossible.

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
Mostly pensions. Tell that to those who buy the PR effort from the government on this, especially if they are middle aged and more, that tends to give them pause for thought.

Pensions are a big problem too and why (you guessed it) i don't believe the state should be involved. Of course the only reason the state needs to get involved in pensions at all is because it absolutely hates savers so much and is hell bent on debasing the currency. If we had sound money then saving for a pension would be easy.

You're right that pensions are a huge expenditure, and we have to raid them unfortunately. For now means test them so anyone with X amount of wealth doesn't get a pension. Harsh, but the magnitude of the country's problems are far too great.

[Edited 2013-05-19 07:17:16]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27241 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4791 times:

For anyone interested in how the NHS operates a very recent documentary on a day in the life of the NHS with 100 cameras capturing what the NHS does.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHsroLpCl6U


User currently offlinemmo From Qatar, joined Apr 2013, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
I love your sentence: "Having lived in both countries, I would like to add my thoughts." My first thought was "what is the other country and thoughs about what"? . But of course I should have guessed.

Perhaps you should take a look at your posts! You opened the door by your uninformed posts. I suggest that I have more qualifications to speak of NHS than you do. I have lived under both systems. You, just can pick and choose about what news rag you want to quote. Yes, the Express falls into that category.

You are attempting to portray the situation here as one that reverts to the middle ages. It is far from it. If you have something worthwhile to add, please do. Other wise making offhand comments such as you do does nothing to substantiate your position. Your comments illustrate you know noting about funding of the NHS and your comments further demonstrate you have an even looser grasp of just what the NHS does. So, I would suggest before you throw stones at me, you might want to brush up on you facts..

Back to you!!!



If we weren't all crazy we would all go insane
25 Dano1977 : The NHS ISN'T FREE. It's paid for via taxation. If you are from overseas and don't meet certain criteria, then you pay! It seems only the bad news abo
26 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : How are we being "dragged in kicking and screaming?" I'm an American and when I first read the topic I was gonna mention the US (again, as an America
27 WestJet747 : It's pretty much the same idea, although I've been told the British system is more efficient. I've never been to the UK so I can't say for myself. Ho
28 Post contains links RomeoBravo : Those would be positive rights. I believe generally in negative rights which means positive rights are in fact a violation of certain negative rights
29 garpd : The NHS is something I am truly proud of and very happy to pay my taxes for. It's one of the few levies on my salary that I actually think is justifie
30 StarAC17 : Because it is funded by taxes and the penalty for not paying taxes can be jail time. In the US it would never be affordable for most middle-class fam
31 RomeoBravo : I think the point has gone over your head. Why does the government have to do that? If it was so good why don't we pay for it voluntary. Just like i
32 Post contains images WestJet747 : Ontario doesn't cover the full amount. I had to see a doctor while in Montreal last year and Ontario only takes care of 70%. Good thing it was only a
33 StarAC17 : Because people won't pay and get the most expensive treatment and rely on the state anyways which is why something like health care is so expensive i
34 flyingthe757 : Move to a country where you have to pay for every little thing, a xray costs you a few grand, a check up the same, god forbid yu get hurt and spend a
35 Post contains links RomeoBravo : Humans aren't moths drawn to lights you know. Most people would understand the need for health insurance if there was no offering from the government
36 Post contains images StarAC17 : One other reason is that many American wait and go the the ER for care which is where the treatment is the most expensive. Fair point, but to make it
37 Post contains images RomeoBravo : No, there doesn't. No, the burden shifts to their pocket or charity. Would this be a civilised society that mandates theft? People would only die fro
38 RussianJet : Show us the numbers proving that the UK system causes 'many unnecessary deaths'. I suspect you'll find it saves a hell of a lot of lives.
39 RomeoBravo : You won't see them because they don't exist. Free market capitalism has a pretty brutal record of producing better quality at lower prices over commu
40 RussianJet : Wow, that's so convenient, what with it meaning you can bandy around totally unsupported, wild claims about how many people the NHS must kill compare
41 OA260 : Indeed in fact where any errors are highlighted they often change. The digital prescriptions by 2018 is another step to minimise any errors in dispen
42 RomeoBravo : Why is it unsupported? If you think it's unsupported, then go ahead and point out a commodity that it better administered by holding a gun to our hea
43 flipdewaf : it's funny because that's almost exactly how they do behave. indeed it does, but then so does non socialised care so your point is mute. I don't real
44 RussianJet : It's an unsupported claim because you yourself admit that you can't provide any data or factual evidence to substantiate it. As for your unrelated an
45 RomeoBravo : Ok you've dodged the question then. Well it's still a commodity whether or not you think it's a right too, you just think it's a right to a commodity
46 RussianJet : Not at all, I just don't believe the terms of the question are accurate. Furthermore, I don't believe that taxation is extortion at all, further unde
47 RomeoBravo : Yes, but then again, you debate like a small child so what you think is hardly of much concern to me. Ok obviously you are extremely reluctant to giv
48 RussianJet : No - I just disagree. A loaded question - I do not view the NHS as forceful or parasitical in any way. No, I can't. I'm not saying that no economic d
49 RomeoBravo : How does it get its funding then? We are forced to pay for it whether we like it or not. If you have a right to something, you have a right to force
50 Post contains links flipdewaf : yet you still aren't able to actually debate the points that were clearly part of the discussion and were distracted by my admittedly immature commen
51 zckls04 : I had my appendix out a few years ago. Total bill for laparoscopy and 2 day stay was $112,000. A friend of mine had the exact same operation and a 1 d
52 RomeoBravo : Yes that was the point i was making. In fact i made that pretty clear in my statement and i'm suprised you didn't pick up on it... Does not compute.
53 flipdewaf : I see, but you asserted it as a fact when I it simply isn't. There is no evidence to suggest that socialised healthcare causes any more unnecessary d
54 RussianJet : I know very well how it is funded - I don't see it as extortion though. I view such taxation as necessary. On a nice paper in a classroom that might
55 babybus : I think if you put the amount you pay towards the NHS on your wage packet you would see you don't pay that much at all. I don't know anyone who says t
56 RomeoBravo : It is extortion though. Whether you think it is necessary or not, the funding is still extracted from people through means of coercion. It's difficul
57 RussianJet : Yes indeed.
58 zckls04 : Sex-reassignment should certainly be covered by the NHS, providing certain safeguards are in place like mandatory psychotherapy and the requirement t
59 cmf : That is your error. It isn't extortion just because it is a tax. Nor is it free of extortion just because it is done by a company. The problem is tha
60 RomeoBravo : Please expand on these 3 assertions...
61 cmf : Sure, as soon as you have expanded on the many requests people have made to you above.
62 Post contains images RomeoBravo : Such as?
63 Post contains images OA260 : Well sometimes people need to learn the hard way and learn a lesson so not wishing this on anyone it might be a wake up call to some. Yes I posted th
64 cmf : Just read the thread above and look for the questions you avoid with smart ass comments or base your answers on your personal definitions of tax, the
65 romeobravo : No, you're going to have to highlight them to me if you want to pretend to have any credibility. I believe i have answered all the questions aimed at
66 pvjin : Yeah I'm sure a healthcare system based on private corporations, like in the US would be just amazingly efficient. Then also British people could fin
67 RomeoBravo : I'm arguing for free market healthcare. Not a corporatist/fascistic healthcare system that they have in the US. I signed no agreement with my governm
68 pvjin : Nope, it's a well known fact that progressive taxation makes poor less poor, it doesn't make everyone poorer. Nope, there's no risk of government sho
69 RomeoBravo : Only relative to the rich. Everyone gets poorer as a result. What so instead of giving the money i stole off of you to charity, i used some of it to
70 pvjin : A society with no taxes is something that could never exist, it would just fail. So unless you prefer anarchy there's no other way than a society wit
71 RomeoBravo : Again, i've never said no taxes. I've just said, call taxes what they are: theft
72 RussianJet : And you wonder why nobody will take you seriously......
73 RomeoBravo : If you disagree with me then provide a logical counter-argument or don't say anything. Don't just resort to personal slurs. That makes it look like y
74 idealstandard : Sigh. Every time someone brings up a commendation or positive experience of the NHS or anything remotely "socialist", there will always be a right win
75 RomeoBravo : There's nothing selfish about my views. I want what's best for people. I just understand economics well enough to know how to achieve that. You don't
76 Geezer : I would be embarrassed also, getting into any discussion with a room full of people if I was naked and all of them had their clothes on ! ( Even thou
77 RussianJet : It's anything but a personal slur. It's a logical comment in itself, given that so many people so obviously disagree with your extreme description of
78 pvjin : Everyone knows that charity will never cover even 50% of the money needed for social projects, there are way too many greedy people around. Thus taki
79 RomeoBravo : No, explain your counter argument in logical terms or take it back. How do you expect humanity to improve if you are not even going to have rational
80 pvjin : Like in the United States? There I see just extreme inequality and charity most definitely hasn't managed to really help majority of people who have
81 JLB67 : We certainly take it for granted. It's only when you think about all the other countries around the world who don't have such a system that you apprec
82 Post contains links RomeoBravo : The US is not a particularly free market economy any more, government spending constitutes 42% of the economy. But even still, the poor are no worse
83 RussianJet : Let me put it in very simple terms: I think your interpretation is extreme, and thus hard to take seriously. Others here have indicated likewise. The
84 flipdewaf : A necessary evil for a functioning society, the level of 'evil' that can be levied on a society to produce a greater good will of course diminish and
85 Post contains images RomeoBravo : It's not extreme though. It's literally what it is. I appreciate it's difficult to comprehend because you've grown up in a system where it is deemed
86 aaron747 : "Medical quality" per se doesn't always depend on the market. There is already inherent competition within medicine as a practice and scientific exer
87 Geezer : I have just completed reading almost 40% of the replies to this thread; in reading them, I have suddenly come up with a marvelous idea; I think I'll w
88 aaron747 : No need to do so. My premiums in this land are fixed by age and income. It doesn't matter who you are or what you do, they will be the same - just ch
89 AyostoLeon : Because despite the rather simplistic economic views of the late lamented St Margaret of Finchley not everyone can obtain a high paying job or establ
90 Darksnowynight : Good topic. It's not often that folks just come out to praise and appreciate the good things they have, and it's really great to see how you guys mak
91 flipdewaf : LOL! Please must prove your assumption that And apparently Or you assume they are to fit your agenda? Show the statistics then, you can't just assume
92 Post contains images RomeoBravo : The statistics are that near 100% of commodities are produced better by the free market than by monolithic socialist institutions. Unless you can nam
93 RomeoBravo : No more is spent on healthcare per year than on food. But do we need a big monolithic government monopoly to administer food to the people? No, that
94 AyostoLeon : Such is the general theory but along with price reduction there is often a reduction in quality. Inevitably with competition there are company failur
95 Post contains links RomeoBravo : Yes, it's true that there can be failures, but that's true of everything. Then employers will be incentivised to tell people to go home to bed if the
96 AyostoLeon : So an unqualified employer is able to diagnose and prescribe a response to a medical problem? And simply based on "market considerations". That puts
97 RomeoBravo : What the hell are you talking about? People already come in to work ill, and are often told to go home so as not to infect others. That's because it'
98 AyostoLeon : True and people are often pressurised to stay because "we have that important deadline to meet". There are no reliable statistics kept on how often t
99 AeroWesty : Hmm, I see that disrespect for elective offices, regardless of who holds or has held it, is a cross-Atlantic problem. With effective insurance regula
100 AyostoLeon : How funny. I have not expressed any disrespect for any office, elective or otherwise. I have not criticised the office of the Prime Minister but the
101 AeroWesty : One may disrespect one's views without disrespecting the office they have earned. Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, not St. Margaret of Finchley.
102 RomeoBravo : And people don't choose to need food either so again, why are you not being consistent and arguing for the government to administer tax funded food t
103 AyostoLeon : You commented, I was courteous enough to make a reply. Choose to interpret it in any way that you will as makes you happy. Had I ignored your comment
104 Darksnowynight : Need it or not, you have it. In your country as in mine, agraculture is heavily subsidized by the state, and this does indeed have a very profound ef
105 Post contains images flipdewaf : 74% of all statistics are made up on the spot. What people are generally looking for when they say proof are properly written peer reviewed studies w
106 AeroWesty : Just as a point of general knowledge, doesn't the UK participate in the EU food and farming subsidy programs? And are there no programs for the poor
107 AyostoLeon : Sorry but despite my previous statement that I would leave it there I feel obliged to comment. While it is absolutely true that people do not choose
108 AyostoLeon : Thank you for the compliment. I must say how kind you have been to me but I will always remember the proverb, doubt your enemies once and your friend
109 RomeoBravo : *sigh* what an appallingly long and ignorant post we have here... I get an awful deal. I pay 30k and get little in return. Probably the equivalent of
110 AyostoLeon : Don't be so hard on yourself. While what you say not everyone is going to agree with, you do not need to describe yourself as either boring or ignora
111 RomeoBravo : The CAP which is quite possibly the dumbest thing ever conceived by the EU (we must have a European wide free market so we can protect the European m
112 RomeoBravo : Why should i read up on what fascism was? I know what it was. That's why i am comparing the economic elements of it to the US healthcare system. Priv
113 AeroWesty : No wonder I couldn't find anything other than what looked to be small loans against future benefits. Even though we don't have socialized medicine (y
114 AyostoLeon : So how do you equate providing health and care for those who could not afford it with fascism? As far my memory goes, the official policy of fascism,
115 Post contains images AeroWesty : How soon they forget.
116 Post contains images RomeoBravo : I'm not Again just read what i've written... This means that i'm equating the economic system of US healthcare (and quite a lot of the rest of the ec
117 AyostoLeon : Suggesting that some one read up on something and offering to remove the blindness are not the same thing. You suggested that you could help somebody
118 AeroWesty : I've responded extensively to questions posed. If there are any which are not of a repetitive nature, please point them out.
119 AyostoLeon : You accused me of showing disrespect to the office of Prime Minister. I asked for evidence of that. You have not provided any. I have indicated that I
120 Post contains images AeroWesty : LOL, is that what your drama piece of "you still, persistently refuse to respond to any questions directed at yourself" is about? (My bolding.) I'll
121 AyostoLeon : How gracious of you. I am really indebted to your generosity and your willingness to humour a tyro. But you still have not demonstrated what you accu
122 AeroWesty : Perhaps you should just alter the way you view the situation. This: ... is not "convicting you of an offence". Using that terminology simply makes it
123 GDB : Interesting, We are told here all the time, by the likes of UKIP and other odds and sods, that the NHS is a free for all for foreigners. It's BS, fod
124 RussianJet : Best post of the thread. Well done that man.
125 zckls04 : Indeed. If I go to the UK I have to pay for medical care even though I have a British passport. If I don't pay, I can't reenter the UK until I do.
126 RomeoBravo : I don't see much point in resorting to emotional rhetoric. There seems to be a bit of an absence of literature about the pre NHS healthcare system in
127 Darksnowynight : No, what he's saying is that you don't know what you're talking about when making those comparisons. I think that he's right about that, too. Instead
128 RomeoBravo : Oh look Mr Condescending is back. I'm just curious, what is real money to you? The median UK salary is £20,000. So how much do i have to earn until
129 Post contains images Darksnowynight : The point where you are no longer consumed by petty concerns like the ones you exhibit. You see this a lot with the lower income crowd; the idea that
130 RomeoBravo : Well i never thought you'd resort to more condescending drivel. Whilst i don't enjoy paying income taxes to fund the workshy nor inefficient monolithi
131 Darksnowynight : Let's see some cites for this. Also, what does that have to do with your gov't helping you out WRT NHS?
132 Maverick623 : So if you can't tax income or expenditures, then what do you tax? The money has to come from somewhere...
133 Post contains links RomeoBravo : What does your assertions about my income have to do with the NHS? No matter how many times you repeat this my government does not help me (or anyone)
134 Darksnowynight : What gun are they holding to your head? The money for NHS comes right from taxes; you don't need to buy anything at all. Just watch those margins and
135 RomeoBravo : ...which comes out of my wallet. Ergo i am forced to buy the NHS. Please stop playing dumb.[Edited 2013-05-26 18:24:07]
136 Post contains images Darksnowynight : This is not true. It comes from the taxes assessed to you by the folks of the UK. In legal terms, that money was never yours in the 1st place; you we
137 RomeoBravo : Which begs the question, if taxpayers aren't paying taxes then who exactly is? You're not one of those imbeciles that thinks that taxes have absolutel
138 Maverick623 : Let's make a deal: nobody will have to pay any taxes ever again. In exchange, if you want to use services or infrastucture payed for by those taxes,
139 Vinniewinnie : Just because you are young, healthy and earning good money doesn't mean that everybody is like you. Furthermore I'd even venture further in saying th
140 Hywel : Having undergone free surgery on the NHS which would have cost $12k privately, I have the highest respect for the NHS. Granted I had to wait 12 months
141 RomeoBravo : Reading this baffling statement It doesn't sound like i'm the one who doesn't have a clue about economics tbh. If the average government spending is
142 Vinniewinnie : Very happy for you that you are helping those people because usually IT & software destroy jobs at the bottom of the hierarchy. That's a serenade
143 RomeoBravo : It's job neutral. Jobs might go but they're replaced with new jobs that weren't being done before. In the meantime society benefits from the efficien
144 GDB : It's not emotional rhetoric, it's my small window into understanding what life was like then. Those grandparents worked hard all their lives. Still,
145 RomeoBravo : That's odd because the US had private healthcare. I know your thought process, you think that if the government didn't force people to buy healthcare
146 zckls04 : You mis-attributed. I would never assert such a thing. That is only true if everybody is like you; however for many the acquisition of money is low o
147 Post contains images Darksnowynight : Because you won't get 10 000 worth of services for 10 000 paid in. The gov't can leverage an enormous amount of buying power towards these essentials
148 RomeoBravo : I don't believe that for a second. But if the acquisition of money is low on your priority list than that is fine. People are free to do what they wa
149 Boeing717200 : Respect is earned. Only a fool hands it out freely. Politicians show nothing but disrespect for their constituents why should they expect anything in
150 RomeoBravo : So you are the saying the government does things more efficiently than private businesses? I know you're pretty desperate to throw any argument my wa
151 AyostoLeon : In some circumstances that is possible but it depends on the extent to which politics takes precedence over the efficient running of a concern. I hav
152 Ken777 : $10K really doesn't cover very much these days - nor does $30K. My radiation after prostate surgery in 2005 was $40K all by itself - just the 38 days
153 zckls04 : That wasn't my point. My point is that that motivation distorts the relationship between somebody's contribution to society and the amount of money t
154 RomeoBravo : What you are saying is that because there's an oversupply in the jobs people want to do for whatever reason, the employer gets a large consumer surpl
155 Post contains links Vinniewinnie : Go and tell that to the woman working as a cashier at M&S whose shifts are reduced because of all these electronic tills. Go and tell that to the
156 GDB : It did and while it also had pockets of deep deprivation, such things affected a greater part of the UK population than the US. A legacy of being the
157 Post contains images Ken777 : Actually the best example in the US is Medicare Advantage. That is the private program that would demonstrate that private insurance could do a bette
158 zckls04 : Only if the only benefits which are derived from your job are monetary. What if you head a charity for example? That was in fact the case at one time
159 Post contains links RomeoBravo : It's the truth. Of course government doesn't help matters by putting barriers to work. Capital equipment replacing human labour is symptomatic of the
160 zckls04 : Which country in your opinion has the closest to an ideal healthcare system? You've mentioned Singapore, but that is a country with far lower healthc
161 Post contains links and images TristarAtLCA : Thank god it wasn't just me who found this odd. Saying that government need to stay out of healthcare and citing Singapore of all places!! The NHS sy
162 RomeoBravo : No it's far lower because it has a healthcare system modelled around market forces. Whilst it's true that Singapore has a relatively young population
163 Ken777 : It is affordability, not functionality, that puts us so far down the list when countries are ranked on outcomes. I paid out the rear when I had priva
164 Post contains images zckls04 : Not true- Singapore's healthcare costs were spiraling in the 1990s. The government's response was: - Restriction of use of cutting-edge equipment and
165 Post contains images TristarAtLCA : You have constantly stated that governments need to stay out of healthcare. In this thread you have highlighted only one other health system which yo
166 RomeoBravo : No it's definitely with you and to be honest i'm getting a bit tired of it. You seem incapable of measured debate, your posts are full of strawmans a
167 RomeoBravo : This is probably the most pathetic post in this thread so far. I'll point out a few things here which again boil down to your inability to verbally r
168 zckls04 : I'll skip the juvenile tantrums you throw in your post and address the points you actually raise. Healthcare spending went down when those reforms wer
169 TristarAtLCA : Not by a long shot. That was you continually telling people that they were victims of extortion and theft despite them assuring you on multiple occas
170 RomeoBravo : What a simplistic argument. Surely even you must know that if you limit supply you increase costs. Just because less is spent doesn't mean the servic
171 vinniewinnie : Ok now we should get rid of the minimum wage! great how about a £3 an hour wage for your kids? Erm yes... Just have a look at countries that are pro
172 zckls04 : So you would entirely ignore such a clear correlation because it disagrees with your dogma? Thank goodness you're not in charge of anything. Consider
173 GDB : Quite right, there was not enough of it, what was being run by those supposed to be regulated. History does not lie, in 1929, in Asia in 1997, the UK
174 RomeoBravo : If you actually read the thing you quoted you'll see i didn't ignore it at all, in fact i implicitly supported that conclusion. Which makes it all th
175 flyguy89 : Considering that most of those people get a lot of those taxes rebated or refunded back to them, that's not true. They do indeed pay taxes, but ultim
176 Post contains links RomeoBravo : Whilst i'm willing to concede that most of my opinions on healthcare are based on theoretical observations in other industries and that there are few
177 zckls04 : Look again- you implicitly supported the data, but explicitly rejected the conclusion. I've mentioned it twice. I think you are being a little melodr
178 Arrow : C'mon, fess up. You are in fact Jim Parsons, the guy who plays Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory. Right? And you are practicing for the next episode. Ca
179 GDB : I don't know, both ideologies, theories, when put into full practice had unintended results. Hayek's ideas, finally after 30 years, gained traction i
180 RomeoBravo : His purist view on the money supply and interest rates was never put into full practise. Lawson was more like of a Freidmanite (i like Friedman but i
181 Ken777 : You don't get your sales taxes "rebated", nor do you get property taxes rebated. Various other taxes (such as petrol taxes) are so locked in that the
182 Post contains images flyguy89 : Depends on where you live and what kind of deductions you take. Some states/locations don't have income or property taxes. Purchasing power parity al
183 Post contains images zckls04 : But below almost all OECD countries, and noticeably bottom of the pile in value. That study clearly finds the US system is awful. HOWEVER: That surve
184 vinniewinnie : It's funny how purism although very appealing in theory and from an academic standpoint never get translated into real world. The reason is pretty sim
185 RomeoBravo : Good reason to minimise and simplify taxes Good reason to not have unemployment benefit. What the hoot do you need unemployment benefit for? Just sav
186 flyguy89 : ...and still above some and pretty much on par with a few others, it still doesn't negate my point that universal healthcare is not guaranteed to fix
187 zckls04 : Well, universal healthcare itself is not intended to fix any of those ills- it just refers to the practice of ensuring everybody has coverage, which
188 vinniewinnie : Yes sure until you cut taxes so low that the government ends up cutting essential services... Ok my friend not sure where u live but bus services def
189 RomeoBravo : You right it's about fairness. People who don't use services shouldn't have to pay for the people that do. Or more accurately prop up house prices of
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