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Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes  
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5660 posts, RR: 15
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2419 times:

Well, it looks like the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has asked Apple CEO Tim Cook to explain Apple's tax situation.

It seems that Apple takes advantage of certain provisions (let's call them loopholes) in the tax code to reduce its tax burden.

Mind you, none of this is illegal, nor does it appear that anyone is saying Apple broke the law.

So why exactly has Apple been called on the carpet?

http://news.yahoo.com/apples-cook-fa...es-senate-questions-154822735.html

A little more detail here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/conniegu...s-to-be-dramatically-simplified/2/

You gotta love Rand Paul.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/05/...-twitter/?section=money_technology

About 6 1/2 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rjLhjxQTws


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
You gotta love Rand Paul.

On this one, Rand is right on the money.

I may disagree with the policies Apple and other businesses are taking advantage of, but they are the policies of the Government. However I do think that the Senate hearing is more of a drum beat for further issues regarding deregulation of tax policies .



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

Apple posted Tim Cook's Opening Remarks at:

http://www.apple.com/pr/pdf/Apple_Testimony_to_PSI.pdf

The document presents an interesting picture of various aspects of Apple's internal operations. When you consider that 61% of Apple's sales are outside of the US it is understandable (to me, at least) why the company is very careful managing funds outside of the country. The ability to grow internationally with these funds (especially in areas like China) is something that shareholders should be very appreciative of.

As for the politicians, just another Dog & Pony Show. Unfortunately for the politicians there are other, more important factors going on in the world. Like the Oklahoma Tornadoes, which are far more deserving of our attention than a mass of politicians flapping their jaws.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15845 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2400 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):

Well, it looks like the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has asked Apple CEO Tim Cook to explain Apple's tax situation.

It seems that Apple takes advantage of certain provisions (let's call them loopholes) in the tax code to reduce its tax burden.

Apple is getting picked on for being successful. If I were Mr. Cook I'd have told the senators to go screw themselves. Apple has nothing to gain and everything to lose from this farce.

If the government wants to do something, drop the taxes so that money can come into the country. But if they insist on tightening their grip, more money will slip away.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2389 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
If I were Mr. Cook I'd have told the senators to go screw themselves.

I agree.

I would have said: "We comply with all the rules. YOU (congress) makes up the rules. If YOU don't like the rules that are currently in the books, change them. When you do, we will comply with them. the ball is in YOUR court, not Apple's"



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
On this one, Rand is right on the money.

I may not always agree with Mr. Paul...though I do seem to do so more than not...but, he is spot on through his whole statement.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
However I do think that the Senate hearing is more of a drum beat for further issues regarding deregulation of tax policies

Let's hope so. We need a simpler, more efficient tax code. We need a tax code that that does what a tax code is supposed to do: raise money for the essential functions of government.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
I would have said: "We comply with all the rules. YOU (congress) makes up the rules. If YOU don't like the rules that are currently in the books, change them. When you do, we will comply with them. the ball is in YOUR court, not Apple's"

Absolutely correct. As Mr. Paul said, tax policy is the province of the Congress.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21882 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
It seems that Apple takes advantage of certain provisions (let's call them loopholes) in the tax code to reduce its tax burden.

Mind you, none of this is illegal, nor does it appear that anyone is saying Apple broke the law.

So why exactly has Apple been called on the carpet?

I'd call them on the carpet in order to shine some light on how these loopholes work so that the public can see what sort of machinations go on behind the scenes with the tax policy. All that stuff is pretty obscure, and a high profile case like this makes it less so.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
I would have said: "We comply with all the rules. YOU (congress) makes up the rules. If YOU don't like the rules that are currently in the books, change them. When you do, we will comply with them. the ball is in YOUR court, not Apple's"

Absolutely correct. But in order to change them, there's going to have to be public support, and it's difficult to drum up that public support when the only ones who really know how the loopholes work are the big companies and their accountancy firms.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
On this one, Rand is right on the money.

Are we agreeing on something? No way!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
I may disagree with the policies Apple and other businesses are taking advantage of, but they are the policies of the Government.

Knew it was too good to be true...

These are profits from overseas operations. Not US sales. There is no "loophole at work here, this is very basic Tax Territoriality. A state taxes economic activity that takes place within its borders. The US taxes Honda on cars it sells here. France will tax Apple's business activities in France.

The main problem here is that the US government has developed a level of greed unmatched in any country that I can think of. Not only does it want to tax activity within the US, but it also wants to tax activity outside the US. US citizens living and working overseas continue to have to pay taxes, even though they are already taxed locally. And they want to tax US-owned companies the same way. Fortunately there exists a provision that essentially differs any such taxes as long as the money is not repatriated.

What a dumb idea.

Repatriated cash from overseas business is basically free money to the US economy. Remember, the earnings had nothing to do with the US. Apple (France) SARL bought Ipods from China and sold them in France. and made a lot of profits (after having paid full taxes in France). 1) The US government did nothing to earn its share, and 2) bringing that money home means it can be distributed to shareholders and employees, who will spend more, or can be used to fund new businesses, etc.

Allowing that money and all other foreign earnings tax-free back into the US brings nothing but good to the US. But some politicians simply can't allow a that to happen. They have to demand their cut. So the money stays outside the country, benefiting nobody but Irish money managers, and eventually the shareholders of a foreign company, because the only thing Apple can possibly do with so much money is to buy something with it - and that company will have to be outside the US.

Considering the amount of money they've accumulated, perhaps they will soon buy a little place for Apple employees to retire to. Australia, perhaps  

Rand Paul has it exactly right. The Senate should be begging Apple to bring that money home, tax free.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15845 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
When you do, we will comply with them.

More like "When you do, we will find new ways around it, outsource more, and keep more money elsewhere."

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
We need a simpler, more efficient tax code. We need a tax code that that does what a tax code is supposed to do: raise money for the essential functions of government.

Switch to FairTax. No corporate taxes so there are no accounting games, no reason to keep money away from America, and very little for large companies to lobby for.

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
I'd call them on the carpet in order to shine some light on how these loopholes work so that the public can see what sort of machinations go on behind the scenes with the tax policy.

You want them to show up and lay their cards on the table? I'd reply to that request with a reply that would make Rahmbo blush.

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
But in order to change them, there's going to have to be public support,

...in other words, vilify American companies and convince people that they are being screwed even if they aren't.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12976 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
I would have said: "We comply with all the rules. YOU (congress) makes up the rules. If YOU don't like the rules that are currently in the books, change them. When you do, we will comply with them. the ball is in YOUR court, not Apple's"

And in the mean time they will make sure their lobbyists undermine any effort to change the rules, and if rule changes come along, they still have huge loopholes in them.

Apple is being called out because they happen to be the world's biggest corporation and have used the loopholes to great effect.

The main way it works is simple:

Quote:

The schemes used by all three companies work by arranging for the units that make sales to customers in Europe and elsewhere to make tax-deductible payments to untaxed, or little taxed, affiliates for the use of intellectual property such as brands and business processes.

So, they avoid tax at the point of sale because they make these tax-deductible payments to the shell corporations, and then they avoid tax for the shell corporation by parking it in a low-tax locale (Bermuda, Luxemburg, etc).

The problem for them is that the billions end up parked in Bermuda etc and can't be repatriated without paying a huge tax at that point, so there's no free lunch, yet we read:

Quote:

The subcommittee report also noted that Apple has been setting aside billions for tax bills it may never pay. As previously reported by The Associated Press, the overlooked asset that Apple has been building up could boost Apple's profits by as much as $10.5 billion. However, Apple has been lobbying to change U.S. law so it can erase its tax liabilities in a less conspicuous fashion.

Apple needs to tap some of the $102B it has oversees (of its total $145B hoard) to pay the $100B in dividends it's promised to its stockholders, yet repatriating it will cause it to be taxed. They have been putting aside money to pay that tax (i.e. $10.5B) knowing that if they want to use the money they'd have to pay the tax, but as we read, they have sent in the lobbyists. If successful, they can keep a large chunk of that $10.5B. Perfectly natural, but too bad for us non-corporate tax payers who can't throw millions at lobbyists because we'll get back billions.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/panel-apple-us...side-us-avoid-taxes-210041569.html



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2328 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
I'd call them on the carpet in order to shine some light on how these loopholes work so that the public can see what sort of machinations go on behind the scenes with the tax policy. All that stuff is pretty obscure, and a high profile case like this makes it less so.

And why is it so obscure? Why do corporations go through such machinations? Why does the public not know about them? Because the tax code is cumbersome. Because the tax code is complex. Because the tax code is ridiculous.

But, again, I ask, why are we asking a company, in a public hearing, about their tax strategy? They have broken no law. They are complying with the law. There is only one real reason to bring Apple or any other company using these provisions of the tax code, to the hearing: that is to castigate them for finding a legal way to not pay money to the US Treasury.

If Mr. McCain and Mr. Levin wanted to bring this stuff to light, they should be grilling the IRS...oh wait...they're busy in another room.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

I have a strange feeling that if this corporation wasn't "Apple" a lot of people would be calling this company a corrupt, shady organization. Can't prove it, but I just have a feeling... (hey, it made a bunch of liberals agree with Rand Paul, you know something weird is up   )


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2289 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Knew it was too good to be true...

These are profits from overseas operations.

Well yes and no. It depends on particulars. and the devil is in the details. Sure If they sold Iphones in Ireland, they should keep the money in Ireland Right?

But what about the designers in the US that designed the software?
What about the testers in other countries that tested the code? They get paid right?

What about the Manufacturer in China? They get paid.

The funds are moved where needed to cover costs.


You are way to quick to just dismiss my simple point. My point is that there are multiple government policies that make it more efficient to keep "profits" overseas. However the "cost of business" is easily repatriated due to taxes. and other concerns.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21882 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2277 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
...in other words, vilify American companies and convince people that they are being screwed even if they aren't.

It's not vilifying American companies - Apple's doing nothing wrong. It's vilifying the people who put the tax code together (i.e. Congress and their various lobbyists).

And the ones who are really being screwed are the other businesses that can't afford the level of international expansion that would let them use the same loopholes that Apple does. It strikes me that the playing field isn't entirely level.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
And why is it so obscure? Why do corporations go through such machinations? Why does the public not know about them? Because the tax code is cumbersome. Because the tax code is complex. Because the tax code is ridiculous.

The tax code is all of those things, and it needs to be simplified. But it also needs to be simplified in the right way, and one can't do that if the people can't act as a check on the lobbyists.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2270 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
If the government wants to do something, drop the taxes so that money can come into the country.

When you look at all of the loopholes you find that corporate taxes are not that high. Look at how hard the GOP in the Senate fought to protect that $40 Billion cash handout to the oil companies. You think the oil companies would let that cash handout go for "lower rates"? Not a chance.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
We need a simpler, more efficient tax code.

My brother-in-law is a tax lawyer and LOVES it when the tax code is "simplified". His income always goes up.

As soon as the effort to "simplify" the tax code all of the lobbyists come out of the woodwork. But you know that, don't you?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
We need a tax code that that does what a tax code is supposed to do: raise money for the essential functions of government.

We have that. It is well financed by political contributions (which is why it is around 72,000 pages long) and any changes will only be with the approval of the wealthy (individual & business) in the country.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The main problem here is that the US government has developed a level of greed unmatched in any country that I can think of

Not really. Take a look at ll the loopholes available and the games allowed and it's not that bad. Old Romney could pull in over $20 Million and only pay 13% - not that bad.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Remember, the earnings had nothing to do with the US. Apple (France) SARL bought Ipods from China and sold them in France. and made a lot of profits (after having paid full taxes in France)

Actually sales in inter nation markets do have something with Apple in the US - Apple's rights to intellectual property is retained in the US, and other assets, such as advertising design, are also retained.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
1) The US government did nothing to earn its share

It provides the business environment that allows businesses to function. For that it becomes a (generally) silent partner.

When I had my little one man company I had a few silent partners. The IRS, SOcial Security Administration, Medicare, the Oklahoma Tax Office, etc.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
But some politicians simply can't allow a that to happen

Politicians will do what they are told to do by the lobbyists. Any politician with a moral backbone these days will be kicked out in the next primary election.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
"When you do, we will find new ways around it, outsource more, and keep more money elsewhere."

If you read Apple's release you'll see that they are paying about 2.5% of the total business taxes paid into the US Treasury for income taxes. ($1 Billion for each $40 Billion paid into the Treasury.) Then add in all of the other US based taxes, from FICA to state income taxes and all of the various local taxes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Switch to FairTax.

Geez, that is just what we need to kill permanently off the middle class.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
No corporate taxes so there are no accounting games, no reason to keep money away from America, and very little for large companies to lobby for.

Doubt if companies would go for that as it would (1) kill of the tax credits (cash handouts) they receive, (2) increase taxes for most Americans, thus reducing their ability to sell their products in the US and (3) motivate other countries ti increase their taxes on US companies as they know the cash would be available.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
US citizens living and working overseas continue to have to pay taxes, even though they are already taxed locally.

That's a no-braianer. When we lived in Australia our tax calculation was US Tax less Aussie Tax. As the Aussie Tax was more than the US Tax our US Taxes due was z-e-r-o.  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
they avoid tax at the point of sale

Actually they don't avoid POS related taxes, be it Sale Taxes, GST, VAT or what ever a local government tax is.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Because the tax code is cumbersome. Because the tax code is complex. Because the tax code is ridiculous.

The tax code is exactly what politicians were paid to put in place. The term is "political contributions" and the USSC has really opened the door for huge payments - making it clearer that politicians will be even more responsive to big money. Reality is that you get what they paid for.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2266 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 12):
Well yes and no. It depends on particulars. and the devil is in the details. Sure If they sold Iphones in Ireland, they should keep the money in Ireland Right?

But what about the designers in the US that designed the software?
What about the testers in other countries that tested the code? They get paid right?

What about the Manufacturer in China? They get paid.

The funds are moved where needed to cover costs.

That's all taken care of through the rules governing intercompany sales and transfers. That's all been taxed properly. We are talking about what's left over.


Quoting casinterest (Reply 12):
You are way to quick to just dismiss my simple point. My point is that there are multiple government policies that make it more efficient to keep "profits" overseas.

And I don't disagree with that, and add that the second point is that since repatriation of overseas profits is a pure net profit to the US economy, the government should stop being so greedy and allow all companies to bring in those funds, tax free. The benefit to the economy would be tremendous.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1939 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
So why exactly has Apple been called on the carpet?

Dog and pony show. Nuff said.

This all reminds me of when the British government pulled in executives from Starbucks (Google and Amazon were also dragged in) to explain why they didn't record any profits in England, yet they were apparently making billions in the Netherlands, a much smaller market. It's pretty much the same deal: because the bloody tax code lets them! They tried grilling the execs to make an example of them, but all the MPs did was expose their own foolishness and lack of understanding of their own damn laws.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
You gotta love Rand Paul.

Damn right. Although his tweets don't directly address the real issue of the government's ineffectiveness, he really just sounds like a cheerleader (albeit for the right team).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
If I were Mr. Cook I'd have told the senators to go screw themselves.

I wouldn't have been so kind...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The main problem here is that the US government has developed a level of greed unmatched in any country that I can think of. Not only does it want to tax activity within the US, but it also wants to tax activity outside the US.

        

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
I have a strange feeling that if this corporation wasn't "Apple" a lot of people would be calling this company a corrupt, shady organization. Can't prove it, but I just have a feeling...

Of course you can prove it. Look at what happened with GE last year. Pretty much the exact same underlying cause, yet they were dragged across the coals by public opinion. I can't even tell you how many arguments I had at the time with people who believed it was GE's fault...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
Apple's rights to intellectual property is retained in the US, and other assets, such as advertising design, are also retained.

Except that it's basically impossible to value intellectual property. If you can't put a number to something, then you can't attribute earnings to it as far as taxes go.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2258 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
Actually sales in inter nation markets do have something with Apple in the US - Apple's rights to intellectual property is retained in the US, and other assets, such as advertising design, are also retained.

No. Apple (France) pays license fees to the parent company, royalties, pays a fair market price for goods and supplies it has to buy from the parent or other related companies.

Apple (US) will pay taxes on those royalty and license fees.


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
It provides the business environment that allows businesses to function. For that it becomes a (generally) silent partner.

The French government, not the US. Because of that, Apple France pays French taxes.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12976 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 12):
Well yes and no. It depends on particulars. and the devil is in the details. Sure If they sold Iphones in Ireland, they should keep the money in Ireland Right?

Indeed, but that's not what is happening here.

Quote:

Apple uses five companies located in Ireland to carry out its tax strategy, according to the report. The companies are located at the same address in Cork, Ireland, and they share members of their boards of directors. While all five companies were incorporated in Ireland, only two of them also have tax residency in that country. That means the other three aren't legally required to pay taxes in Ireland because they aren't managed or controlled in that country, in Apple's view.

The report says Apple capitalizes on a difference between U.S. and Irish rules regarding tax residency. In Ireland, a company must be managed and controlled in the country to be a tax resident. Under U.S. law, a company is a tax resident of the country in which it was established. Therefore, the Apple companies aren't tax residents of Ireland nor of the U.S., since they weren't incorporated in the U.S., in Apple's view.

The subcommittee said Apple's strategy of not declaring tax residency in any country could be unique among corporations.

"Apple wasn't satisfied with shifting its profits to a low-tax offshore tax haven," said Levin. "Apple sought the Holy Grail of tax avoidance. It has created offshore entities holding tens of billions of dollars, while claiming to be tax resident nowhere."

Ireland is chosen because it has that legal quirk that says if you manage the company from outside Ireland (i.e. from the US) then the company is not a tax resident of Ireland. Apple has funneled billions of dollars from all kinds of different things through these Irish shell corporations.

Quote:

Irish subsidiary that earned $22 billion in 2011 paid only $10 million in taxes

Note that the Irish did not consume $22B of Apple products in 2011.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/panel-apple-us...side-us-avoid-taxes-210041569.html



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8776 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Rand Paul has it exactly right. The Senate should be begging Apple to bring that money home, tax free.

  

There shouldn't even be corporate taxes in the first place.

If you want to tax rich _people_, tax rich people. But taxing and penalizing corporate activity is anti-economy and anti-public. The government, of course, is free to be anti-public -- to the extent that they can somehow lead the sheeple on, and strip them bare, and tell them how helpless they would be without powerful father figure lords who wisely command them to and fro.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Note that the Irish did not consume $22B of Apple products in 2011.

And this is the crux of my point. Apple is taking advantage of laws that exist to hide profits.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
There shouldn't even be corporate taxes in the first place.

Why not? Corporations use and require the same facilities that people do. Corporations can deduct their expenses, but if they are turning a profit, they should be subject to taxes, just as anyone who invests and gets a return does.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
Apple is taking advantage of laws that exist to hide profits.

...from those who have no business taking any of it.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2191 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
My brother-in-law is a tax lawyer and LOVES it when the tax code is "simplified". His income always goes up.

I'm guessing his income hasn't gone up in a long time. Because, the tax code hasn't been actually simplified in years.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
Damn right. Although his tweets don't directly address the real issue of the government's ineffectiveness, he really just sounds like a cheerleader (albeit for the right team).

The "tweet" platform really doesn't allow for a whole lot of elaboration. In fact, the tweet platform is perfect for cheerleading. He's looking to get the younger crowd, and, unfortunately too many of them have the attention span of a "tweet".

You have to listen and read him to get the full scope of his tweets. Being one of my senators, I do see and hear a bit more of him than the average American.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineaaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8299 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2188 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
If I were Mr. Cook I'd have told the senators to go screw themselves.

Tim Cook has bigger fish to fry. If anything, he turned it around on them on the sly by getting them to admit their policies were inconsistent to close the hearing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The main problem here is that the US government has developed a level of greed unmatched in any country that I can think of. Not only does it want to tax activity within the US, but it also wants to tax activity outside the US. US citizens living and working overseas continue to have to pay taxes, even though they are already taxed locally. And they want to tax US-owned companies the same way. Fortunately there exists a provision that essentially differs any such taxes as long as the money is not repatriated.

  

It's ridiculous. These people wouldn't know common sense if it slapped them with an open palm.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):

I have a strange feeling that if this corporation wasn't "Apple" a lot of people would be calling this company a corrupt, shady organization.

Actually Cook used the hearing to take a swipe at other types of businesses that have been called before the Hill. And his point is valid. Apple is a real company, making real products, with real R&D costs, sold around the world. As opposed to other businesses that simply come up with more and more complex "products" for trading/manipulating monetary figures from one to the other.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
It is well financed by political contributions (which is why it is around 72,000 pages long) and any changes will only be with the approval of the wealthy (individual & business) in the country.

Tim Cook's total compensation was nearly $400 million in 2011 



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2179 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):

...from those who have no business taking any of it.

Of the people, by the people, for the people. It's government. Not business. There is a big difference.

As I said before, the Government's laws allow this money to be legally out there. I just think that policies need to change about that money.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
25 Flighty : Corporations do not use facilities. People do. Corporations are nothing but real people doing business. Working, owning or being customers. If shareh
26 Post contains images Ken777 : Why not? Corporations re the first to take advantage of the infrastructure developed by governments. They also are first in line when a potential gov
27 Post contains links aaron747 : The vast majority: http://www.businessinsider.com/tim-c...ion-for-2011-is-400-million-2012-1 Apple's executive salaries are pretty modest considering
28 Ken777 : The big chunk of his shares are designed to keep him with the company through 2021. That approach is an effective one for Apple as it makes it diffic
29 BMI727 : The end result is that some politicians are going to have to convince the American people that Apple and other large companies are holding onto their
30 QFA380 : It almost certainly would be regressive. It is much easier to avoid consumption taxes than it is to avoid income taxes. Large consumption taxes promo
31 BMI727 : Besides the fact that they cost $50k? (Seriously, no girl is worth that. Buy the $10k ring and a slightly used Corvette) There is customs. I'm not sa
32 QFA380 : I wholeheartedly agree however plenty of people disagree and it stands as a simple example of how easy it would be to avoid your consumption tax. Tha
33 BMI727 : Keeping tax increases from being free money is a good thing. Capitalism always wins, so it's preferable to have a system where it wins by TKO rather
34 Dreadnought : It all depends of the level of taxation. People will certainly bend over backwards to evade a 20% tax, but not so much for a 5% or 10% tax. It is the
35 Post contains images offloaded : And this logic is utterly lost here in Portugal. Our VAT rate is 23% for starters. The government doesn't get it, literally. The higher taxes go, the
36 OA260 : Ireland seems to be getting hit by these scandals. They have to answer to the EU at a summit today . I'm sure the pressure will be on Ireland to incr
37 Post contains links JJJ : If it only were that easy. Apple does the bulk of their European operations through Ireland and even the Apple store network in each country post min
38 offloaded : That's one of the problems I have with the wonderous EU. It's always lowest common denominator, or in the case of taxes, highest common denominator. I
39 QFA380 : I agree, and wrote as much. You're destroying your own argument. You're saying 'this model of taxation is better than the current model (FairTax)' wh
40 Boeing717200 : The called Apple on the carpet to shame them. That's the MO lately. You are rich. You suck. You should be shamed in public. Pathetic the government t
41 Post contains links Revelation : And indeed that's the downfall of the 'double Irish': you avoid a lot of taxes, but your money ends up in an offshore corporation where it's not part
42 Mir : Since the top 10% holds 77% of the net worth in the country, and the top 1% holds 35% of it (those are 2010 numbers), that doesn't strike me as so ou
43 Flighty : Really? Who's to say nonprofits, churches or schools aren't the first? The government has never been richer or more powerful. If they can't make do o
44 Post contains images StarAC17 : Aren't they borrowing at near 0% interest to pay those dividends? This is proposed by the Republicans, perhaps its rhetoric but it is one of the best
45 Revelation : The job of Senators is to legislate. The sad part of this 'event' is that no Senator suggested what changes they'd make to the law to get corporation
46 BMI727 : Most people don't care so much about income tax because it's something that happens to other people rather than them. Most of those countries also ha
47 StarAC17 : That thinking is how democracy fails. If you let ten percent of the people control how the direction of a country goes then they enact things that se
48 fr8mech : You assume, with your statement that corporations do not pay their "fair share". I do believe I heard Rand Paul make a suggestion or two.
49 BMI727 : A lot of the country pays very little in federal taxes. They still get control of the government as much as anyone. Getting the rest of the country t
50 lewis : Ummm, assume much? Those generalizations I keep reading in here on the matter make me sick...
51 Post contains images StarAC17 : In places such as the Scandinavian countries government does just that except there are far more services available. Or the Republican One of its a d
52 OA260 : Well all it shows is ignorance and lack of understanding of the topic and lack of respect for fellow members whose Families and friends have been pay
53 fr8mech : Which is why I have always said that I don't think my tax burden is too high; I do believe my taxes go to the wrong entities. I would gladly pay more
54 BMI727 : I'll pay for services only the government can provide, but the government too often runs over into other things that they need not be dealing in. Eve
55 Revelation : It is my opinion that corporations do not pay their fair share. I usually ignore him because what he says is so predictable. Here's one: Politicians
56 fr8mech : Apple may make those gizmos everyone likes, but, they employ around 50,000 people here in the US. Those people all pay the taxes with which the polit
57 Dreadnought : Wow. talking about missing the elephant in the room... Politicians (and government) in general do not provide anything except for one thing (more on
58 BMI727 : No, I just think that middle and lower class voters would think differently if voting for the pro-welfare, pro-bailout candidate would mean an extra
59 Revelation : That's not what Paul said. He said "Apple has done more to enrich people's lives than politicians will ever do". I disagree with that, and will go a
60 Post contains images Dreadnought : I specifically said: Which I recognize when I talk about the Rule of Law. It enables, but does not create. And without the likes of Apple, GM and you
61 Revelation : Indeed so. I'm not sure what the disagreement is. Corporations create wealth. Governments enable the creation of that wealth. Governments are funded
62 Dreadnought : NO! Apple pays full taxes on their US activities, including any direct sales overseas, royalty receipts etc it may receive from overseas - basically
63 QFA380 : Aren't they benevolent, we're just serfs who just toil away gratefully because they let us. I'll just defer to the IMF on that one, this report from
64 Revelation : Feel free to go to Mexico and check out what life is like with the rich calling the shots and an ineffectual government, then you can see serfdom in
65 Mir : True, but I wouldn't expect the numbers to slide that much. By measure of financial wealth, the numbers are even more skewed (top 1% has 42% of the f
66 Ken777 : Only if you are anti-government. Personally I am more than appreciative of the business environment government provided in both the US and Australia.
67 BMI727 : So why is it fair that you pay more in taxes for the same education as the guy who sat next to you, in the same classroom in the same school, with th
68 casinterest : I paid a lot less than those guys, and make a lot more. It is a two way street. This is a double edged vote, and as long as the vote is close to 50/5
69 BMI727 : I'm not necessarily talking about college, although that's included. I'm talking all the way back to kindergarten. It is not because of any governmen
70 Revelation : It's simple. Bill Clinton explained it in 2012 at Obama's nominating convention: Are we in this together, or are we in this for ourselves? Your appro
71 casinterest : You didn't just receive a service. You accepted it and embraced it. Some folks did not do the same. I watch a few folks sell short their education to
72 BMI727 : Ourselves. People have enough problems without taking on those of others involuntarily. The government is there to keep people from not allowing us t
73 casinterest : It's not your money? it is your friends/colleagues/community that make and benefit from these decisions.
74 BMI727 : Considering how skewed the tax revenue is, chances are it isn't. Why not vote to spend more money when you have a low enough income with sufficient d
75 casinterest : Because at some point it will be you with the funds if you are worth any of that education. There is a corollary to your quote, Why vote for the folk
76 BMI727 : And that's exactly why I'm a fiscal conservative. Of course, that doesn't really account for the significant number of people who could go through li
77 casinterest : You are so worried about what the pay.... They don't get much either. Not aboujt you.... it is about those that are dictated to by society. Not those
78 BMI727 : But where do they get it from? If they're getting it via the government (or somewhat similarly, minimum wage or union friendly legislation) they will
79 Post contains links Mir : Or we could spend it on incentives for businesses. That street runs both ways. http://www.heritage.org/index/ Move to a more free country if you want
80 Flighty : It was. If we could go back to the Clinton years (Mean ol' Clinton with his tiny, tiny government, and his pre-Patriot Act freedom), we would have a
81 BMI727 : That's a bad way to look at it. The goal isn't to say "Well, we're better off than them so we're fine." Freedom should be maximized in all its forms,
82 Revelation : Unless you are born into great wealth, I think a lot of your success in life will be determined how well you take on other people's problems, either
83 Mir : Except that that theory runs up against the laws of practicality and a functioning society. There are tradeoffs in everything, and your libertarian p
84 Dreadnought : Let's say you had to change jobs, and your income is lowered. Do you A) get the money from somewhere else, or B) reduce your expenses?
85 BMI727 : The trick is picking the right problems for the right people. That's the same ground work as a lot of other people and being the same burden as any n
86 Revelation : You seem to be locked into that theme/narrative, but there's a more obvious reason: strong individualists don't integrate/cope well with others who a
87 BMI727 : Individualism and isolationism are not the same thing. But there is something to be said for living in an unincorporated area, or at least one with l
88 Mir : First I'd try A. If that wasn't possible, or wasn't practical for some reason or other, then I'd do B. Or I might do both at the same time. But I wou
89 Dreadnought : That is very informative. So, "living within your means" is not a hard and fast rule for you. Explains a lot.
90 BMI727 : That doesn't mean you don't try. Simply settling for being decent or good enough is a poor way to go about life.
91 Revelation : Not the same but individualism tends to lead to isolationism for the reason I give: strong individualists don't integrate/cope well with others who a
92 Mir : How exactly is trying to find alternate sources of income to replace what was lost not living within your means? You do realize that people take seco
93 BMI727 : It's easy to come to that conclusion when the only way to be strongly individualist is to be isolated and under the radar. The bunker crowd cannot li
94 Post contains images Revelation : It's kind of hard to be strongly individualistic and not isolated, the contrary would mean that you take advantage of integrated society for the peri
95 BMI727 : That's what individualism is: doing what you want and dealing with whom you want to deal with voluntarily. Personal isolation is an option, but by no
96 Dreadnought : I specifically said "Income". I originally typed "salary", but changed it because if your salary drops, sure enough you can maybe get an extra job. "
97 Revelation : Surely a decision made in most cases from the standpoint of already having reaped many of the benefits of an integrated society and often by people w
98 BMI727 : Then if such integration is so obviously an advantage, there should be no need for it to be mandatory. Government coercion is in no case a prerequisi
99 Post contains images OA260 : Im glad you corrected yourself and saw your mistake by stating everyone .
100 Mir : Fair enough - the two are sometimes used interchangeably, so I misunderstood. Absolutely not. I've been out of work before, and while I did get some
101 Revelation : It's mandatory because we want to invest in everybody. The general idea is that we as a society value other human beings. It seems you aren't on boar
102 BMI727 : Many people don't seem to value themselves that much. And yet we just say that not having an education or work ethic is okay, we'll just send you a c
103 Revelation : It's a scientific fact that a child's brain doesn't mature without reasonable amounts of nutrition, so we certainly will end up with people who can't
104 QFA380 : Way to misquote me, the system has not worked well for everyone in Greece because some are abusing the tax system to avoid paying what they're legall
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