Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Possible Beheading On London Street  
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5632 times:

Its breaking news.

Some are saying he was hacked to death others that he was beheaded in the street.

2 Men with machete/meat cleavers attacked a guy in a "help the heroes" shirt, Possibly military man.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...ce-shooting-machete_n_3319793.html

204 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflyingthe757 From UK - England, joined Mar 2013, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5615 times:

They certainly are not mentioning a beheading on UK news sites!!!!! The dead man is said to be a serving solider.

User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5609 times:

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 1):
They certainly are not mentioning a beheading on UK news sites!!!!! The dead man is said to be a serving solider.

Indeed, It was the huffington post headline though so I went with that, Also on twitter people in the area claiming he was beheaded.

An MP apparently said the guy was in the Military..

This is way f***ed up.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5570 times:

The lastest seems to be that a soldier from the Barracks has been murdered by 2 Males who were shouting "we've had enough and requested people on buses to film them". The victim is white in his early twenties the perps Black in their late twenties.

What in the flying.... No words.

[Edited 2013-05-22 09:06:35]

User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

I think if these reports are true then it should be dealt with as a terrorist incident. This is a shocking and heinous crime. Attacking an off duty soldier is a crime against the state.

RIP  

A320ajm



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineseansasLCY From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 888 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

It has been confirmed that police are treating it as a terrorist attack. A COBRA meeting has been called by the Home Secretary.

User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5506 times:

Update according to BBC News twitter: COBRA has been called by the Home Sec and Sky News are reporting it is a terrorist incident.


If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 5):
It has been confirmed that police are treating it as a terrorist attack. A COBRA meeting has been called by the Home Secretary.

Oh christ this is going to turn into chaos I can see it.


User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5483 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 7):
Oh christ this is going to turn into chaos I can see it.

I hope we don't have riots all over again  



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5464 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 8):
I hope we don't have riots all over again

Less likely riots, more of radical groups attacking each other or innocent people.

"Attackers shouted Allahu Akbar"
"Tried to film the attack"
"Terrorist Attack"


User currently offlineflyingthe757 From UK - England, joined Mar 2013, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 9):

From one news site, they tried to get people on the bus (you see a red double decker in the aerial footage) to film them attacking the people.

Disgusting!!!


User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1037 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

First the riots in the suburbs of Stockholm, now a gruesome crime in London. What a turbulent week for the 'civilized' Western Europe. I hope it doesn't spread across the continent, bearing in mind the ongoing economic and social problems that we have here...

[Edited 2013-05-22 10:15:30]


'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5398 times:

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 11):
First the riots in the suburbs of Stockholm, now a gruesome crime in London. What a turbulent week for the 'civilized' Western Europe. I hope it doesn't spread across the continent, bearing in mind the ongoing economic and social problems that we have here...

It's already spread, The problem is nobody will combat it with proper force and sentences. Instead you get bleeding heart apologists making these psychos stronger and stronger. Things need to change, Terrorists can not get away with hacking a soldier to death on the streets of London in broad daylight. Sick of all this crap...


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5363 times:

CNN: Off-duty British soldier run down by car on the street outside barracks, occupants got out to beat the soldier and attack him with machetes, while asking passersby to photograph the incident. Attackers were shot during the incident and are now in hospital.

Blimey.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

Sadly this was waiting to happen. With the rise of Islamic extremists in the UK they have often caused disruption at the ceremonies for dead soldiers coming back from the ME and openly preached hate against the troops. This is not acceptable IMHO.

When you walk on some of London's streets these days you can often go into areas that are hot beds for these extremists and they live freely in the full knowledge of the Muslim community. Something needs to change drastically and the Muslim community in the UK need to act to show they are against all types of Islamic extremism. For too long its been a softly softly approach with plenty in these communities turning a blind eye.


User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 898 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 14):
and the Muslim community in the UK need to act

That is often said time and time again though. They don't act, and apologies if this offends anyone...

Maybe it's time we acted for them. This can't go on.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5323 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
It's already spread, The problem is nobody will combat it with proper force and sentences. Instead you get bleeding heart apologists making these psychos stronger and stronger. Things need to change, Terrorists can not get away with hacking a soldier to death on the streets of London in broad daylight. Sick of all this crap...

I absolutely agree with you. My very first thought too was that enough is enough. I hope some serious clamping-down takes place. This is utterly intolerable.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5293 times:

The filthy bas**** who did it have thick london urban accents, No doubt they grew up here from a young age.. He just sits there talking to a camera like its a joke after hacking a man to death. I cant quite believe the video ... I'm gobsmacked.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5293 times:

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 15):
That is often said time and time again though. They don't act, and apologies if this offends anyone...

Maybe it's time we acted for them. This can't go on.

Indeed. All this starts in the Mosques and Islamic schools attatched to them. Its a sad sign when these people are allowed to preach hate and be protected by Muslim communities in the UK. Its very worrying and emergency powers need to be brought in if need be. No softly softly approach. If you are found to have knowledge of these people within your community and dont report it then it should mean jail time and if a non British Citizen automatic deportation. All this of course goes back to the 80's and 90's where they were encouraged to live in ghettos and not integrate with British society. It was always going to come back and haunt the country.


User currently offlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2050 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5234 times:

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 15):
Maybe it's time we acted for them. This can't go on.

This makes me beyond furious.

Let human garbage flow unchecked into your country for 20 years, hand out passports like candy, and allow hate preachers to proliferate with no accountability, and things like this are bound to happen. The Western European Muslim "community" and its refusal to look at itself critically need to be treated as tacit approval of actions like this one. Every time certain members of this "community" feel slighted, entire housing estates erupt into flames (this week it's Stockholm, next week it will be somewher else), followed by government officials bending over backward to apologize for the rioters and demanding that the native population (who were never asked if they wanted any newcomers in their countries) be more accommodating. Everyone is so terrified of being labeled "intolerant" that they stick their heads in the sand and let their native cultures and values slip away little by little.

Every time something like this happens in Europe, I keep hoping it will be the final straw that jolts the native population into doing something about it. RIP to the victim - the next few decades are going to be very difficult for Western Europe, if this is any indication.


User currently offlineTupolevTu154 From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 2185 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5234 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 17):
The filthy bas**** who did it have thick london urban accents, No doubt they grew up here from a young age.. He just sits there talking to a camera like its a joke after hacking a man to death. I cant quite believe the video ... I'm gobsmacked.

Here's the aformentioned video;

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-...ed-hands-speaks-at-woolwich-scene/

I bet he's never even been to his "land", let alone lived there. Doesn't look like any sort of organised terrorism to me, just a couple of guys looking to hack people up and claim to be more than they are.



Atheists - Winning since 33 A.D.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5205 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
If you are found to have knowledge of these people within your community and dont report it then it should mean jail time and if a non British Citizen automatic deportation.

Our country has not even been able to forcibly deport a known radical terrorist leader after about a hundred rounds in the courts. Qatada is only going to leave now because he's had enough and is going voluntarily! We stand virtually no chance with the foot soldiers. It's pathetic.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5168 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 19):
Let human garbage flow unchecked into your country for 20 years, hand out passports like candy, and allow hate preachers to proliferate with no accountability, and things like this are bound to happen. The Western European Muslim "community" and its refusal to look at itself critically need to be treated as tacit approval of actions like this one.

Pretty much explains what happened sadly.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):
Our country has not even been able to forcibly deport a known radical terrorist leader after about a hundred rounds in the courts. Qatada is only going to leave now because he's had enough and is going voluntarily! We stand virtually no chance with the foot soldiers. It's pathetic.

Indeed the British government should have brought in emergency anti terror laws to over ride the EU, no wonder people are voting for UKIP ! Which is very dangerous and I dont agree with. Maybe this will change things but I doubt it.


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

Quoting TupolevTu154 (Reply 20):
Here's the aformentioned video;

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-...ed-hands-speaks-at-woolwich-scene/

I bet he's never even been to his "land", let alone lived there. Doesn't look like any sort of organised terrorism to me, just a couple of guys looking to hack people up and claim to be more than they are.

Perhaps a caveat, that this video is pretty awful and has graphic content.

I've watched the video, and it has left me stunned, shocked and angry.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5095 times:

This makes me sick to my stomach. These men are truly the lowest possible life form. The government needs to act NOW or there while be terrible repercussions I can just feel it.

I'm in London some 4 miles away from where this terrible tragedy took place, and the shock and tension in the air is palpable. It's frightening to think this tool place in broad daylight.

I have the upmost respect for all nationalities and those that genuinely need asylum in the UK, those that live here legally but follow multiple faiths, religions and from all nationalities and walks of life, but this HAS to end and we must close our doors whilst its sorted out.

Those that do not respect freedom, safety , security or the hospitality of GREAT Britain have no place here, plain and simple. If you choose to segregate yourself and support extremism and hate, please take it to where it belongs, not on our shores and spilling the blood of our people.

I have even more respect for the Doctors and Nurses treating these sick B*stards - I hope they pour acid in their gunshot wounds and leave them to rot. Despicable and shocking, these men deserve to die a slow painful death, and if that makes me as bad as them for saying it, I just don't care.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5278 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 22):
Indeed the British government should have brought in emergency anti terror laws to over ride the EU, no wonder people are voting for UKIP ! Which is very dangerous and I dont agree with. Maybe this will change things but I doubt it.

It has nothing to do with the EU or even the ECHR, but everything with the British interpretation of these rules. AFAIK Abu Qatada lost all lawsuits in the ECHR, which ruled that it was ok to deport him, but the British government didn´t act on these verdicts. Do you think us or the French let those bastards stay here? The former "Caliph of Cologne" got deprted to Turkey where he was wanted for trying to bomb the parliament and government within hours after he lost his last trial with the German courts and is now serving a long term in a Turkish prison.
You government needs to grow some balls, and I´m sure everybody on the continent will support you.

Jan


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Pretty weak terror attempt, only one victim, I doubt this caused much if any terror to anyone other than the victim. It's not a nice incident but hardly anything worse than any other street murder.

User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5343 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 26):
Pretty weak terror attempt, only one victim, I doubt this caused much if any terror to anyone other than the victim. It's not a nice incident but hardly anything worse than any other street murder.

What a cretin. I am sure nobody was terrorised by 2 men hacking a guy to death in front of their eyes. Never read anything so stupid in my life.

How many died in Boston? Since when was the number of casualties what made it a terror attack. Just wow.. whatever.

[Edited 2013-05-22 12:51:19]

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5323 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 26):
but hardly anything worse than any other street murder.

That depends on whether the supposed motive is correct. This is not merely a comparison of the physical act. In any case, even if just considering the attack in physical terms, even in London it is NOT normal to see someone hacked to death in broad daylight like this. People are justifiably shocked and appalled.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7965 posts, RR: 51
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5264 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 27):

While I think what he said was worded kind of bluntly, I see what he's saying and am relieved that the attacks seem to have gotten less potent over the years. We had 9/11 and the UK had that terrible subway bombing years ago but today the attacks are much smaller scale and by and large are being perpetrated by individuals and very small groups

Still terrible and RIP to the victim

And to those saying that we should "act now" and "do something," what do yall mean? It's an honest question, I don't really know the laws in European countries too well or how you guys handle these cases, so I'm not sure if I'm hearing knee jerk, potentially extreme measures or if the laws are stupidly worded/enforced and there is a real problem



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 26):
Pretty weak terror attempt, only one victim, I doubt this caused much if any terror to anyone other than the victim. It's not a nice incident but hardly anything worse than any other street murder.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 27):
Never read anything so stupid in my life.

Oh I have you just have not read his posts often enough  

So no terror was caused to the school kids watching or the people that tried to help the victim. Nor the people seeing the Men with hands/weapons covered in blood. Those kind of things are everyday common place. Hmmmm


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5213 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
It's already spread, The problem is nobody will combat it with proper force and sentences. Instead you get bleeding heart apologists making these psychos stronger and stronger. Things need to change, Terrorists can not get away with hacking a soldier to death on the streets of London in broad daylight. Sick of all this crap...

I get your anger, though what your saying is not backed up by any facts.
British jails now have a substantial population of Islamist extremists convicted of plotting attacks, serving minimum sentences of up to 40 years, many with 20-25 years minimums. That's no hope of even being considered for parole before that period is up. That's a long time to keep out of any trouble in a place full of violent criminals. For plotting not getting to carry out their plans.

These two manics, have been shot by police, injured and are now is hospital/captivity. A murder like this, they'll very likely get indeterminate sentences, essentially many decades, quite possibly full life terms.
There's a reason why despite falling general levels of crime over many years, the UK prison population has never been higher, it's the lengths of sentences keeping the numbers high.

Though judging the the actions of today, not only did they carry out this appalling crime, they hung around, ranted to people's cameras, did not try to escape when the police arrived.
So they might also be judged insane and banged up forever that way.

This does not seem to be any kind of orchestrated attack planned by others, beyond these shores or not.
No bombs, no 'martyrdom', I'll bet these two just went and did it.
That's not proved at the moment, just seems likely.
Starting by crashing their car into the victim before setting about him with a variety of weapons. One of shot suspects was seriously injured, the cops were not shooting to wound.
.

[Edited 2013-05-22 13:26:03]

User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1037 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5197 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 19):
Let human garbage flow unchecked into your country for 20 years

It becomes even worse when you see who they don't let enter the country on the other hand...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7885918.stm



'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5170 times:

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 32):
It becomes even worse when you see who they don't let enter the country on the other hand...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7885918.stm

Anyone who incites hatred should be banned so he was rightfully banned.


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
And to those saying that we should "act now" and "do something," what do yall mean? It's an honest question, I don't really know the laws in European countries too well or how you guys handle these cases, so I'm not sure if I'm hearing knee jerk, potentially extreme measures or if the laws are stupidly worded/enforced and there is a real problem

Put it this way...

The attackers will probably get....

1. A lawyer paid for by legal aid (Public defender)

2. A high profile tree hugging fluffy human rights lawyer - on pro bono work

3. A high profile criminal defence lawyer who will look for maximum press coverage and "stick it" to the police.

4. They really are dumb as a box of rocks and defend themselves.


I would like to see these attackers swing from the gallows - But current human right laws I believe forbid execution.

No doubt, these attackers, who I admit are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (Although that video is pretty damming evidence).
They will get some fluffy lawyer (paid for by the UK Taxpayer) who will claim mental insanity or broken childhood, religious persecution or some other human fluffy rights. No doubt, the judge will be left hamstrung by what he can do in the sentencing, and these attackers, if found guilty will be in some cushy prison hospital laughing at the system



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 19):
This makes me beyond furious.

Let human garbage flow unchecked into your country for 20 years, hand out passports like candy, and allow hate preachers to proliferate with no accountability, and things like this are bound to happen. The Western European Muslim "community" and its refusal to look at itself critically need to be treated as tacit approval of actions like this one. Every time certain members of this "community" feel slighted, entire housing estates erupt into flames (this week it's Stockholm, next week it will be somewher else), followed by government officials bending over backward to apologize for the rioters and demanding that the native population (who were never asked if they wanted any newcomers in their countries) be more accommodating. Everyone is so terrified of being labeled "intolerant" that they stick their heads in the sand and let their native cultures and values slip away little by little.

Every time something like this happens in Europe, I keep hoping it will be the final straw that jolts the native population into doing something about it. RIP to the victim - the next few decades are going to be very difficult for Western Europe, if this is any indication.

The facts are though, in the UK at least, is that the 7/7 bombers, most of those the many now in prison for plotting attacks, were born and brought up in the UK,

Several Muslim groups have condemned this, as they have other attacks, what they are or can do, about extremists in their midst, is another matter.
Always remember one thing, terrorism cannot win military victories as we understand them. They can ferment discord amongst societies however.
If we allow them.

In our previous experience of terrorism, from the IRA, their terrorists operating here did not mingle amongst pockets of the large Irish population here. While partly it was due to concerns that they might already be under investigation by the security services, it was also that they didn't think they'd find those prepared to harbour them.

In the 1970's, after some truly evil no warning bombings of pubs in the UK, the police, under huge political and public pressure, picked up members of the settled Irish community, who were later cleared of the attacks they were jailed for. In those days, with the emotions the attacks had stirred, they had confessions beaten out of them.

This is why knee jerk reactions should be avoided, hard with the level of provocation sometimes true, it's another way of falling into the trap the terrorists seek to create.

All those extremists we've locked up in the past few years, there are plenty of them too, had their plans foiled by good, solid, patient detective and intelligence work.
Which likely saved many lives. By preventing attacks.

Breaking- It seems one of the attackers today, was shot after he posed a threat to an armed female police officer.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5123 times:

https://twitter.com/NicoHines/status/337308932882182144/photo/1

And so it begins, EDL rioters in woolwich. Police line forming.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5114 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
Breaking- It seems one of the attackers today, was shot after he posed a threat to an armed female police officer.

She shot them both as they ran at her. They waited 20 minutes for armed police to turn up.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1903 posts, RR: 10
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5119 times:

Quoting TupolevTu154 (Reply 20):
Here's the aformentioned video

Wow...well that's easily the most awful thing I've seen this week...

I have no idea what he's going on about "my land", he sounds like he's never even been outside of London.   

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):
Our country has not even been able to forcibly deport a known radical terrorist leader after about a hundred rounds in the courts. Qatada is only going to leave now because he's had enough and is going voluntarily! We stand virtually no chance with the foot soldiers. It's pathetic.

I don't intend to offend any Brits here, but after reading up on the Qatada case not too long ago, it sounds like your judiciary is lacking some testicular fortitude.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 27):
What a cretin. I am sure nobody was terrorised by 2 men hacking a guy to death in front of their eyes. Never read anything so stupid in my life.

How many died in Boston? Since when was the number of casualties what made it a terror attack. Just wow.. whatever.

Giancavia, while I appreciate your anger over this shocking event, jumping to conclusions isn't going to benefit the dialogue whatsoever. Keep in mind that what separates terrorism from other crimes is the motive, typically of political nature. Only when interviewed by police will we know why this maniac did what he did. If it turns out he's just off his meds and went berserk, then it certainly is not terrorism. We have to be careful to not spread the definition of terrorism too thin, because then we risk diluting the meaning of what true terrorism is.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 32):
It becomes even worse when you see who they don't let enter the country on the other hand...

Ha! Geert Wilders is hardly a saint. He's entitled to all the free speech he wants in his home country. If the UK doesn't want him spreading his poison in their country, then that's their prerogative, and I agree with them. I don't want foreigners coming to my country and spreading hate in the public forum like Wilders has made a career of doing.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 34):
Put it this way...

The attackers will probably get....

1. A lawyer paid for by legal aid (Public defender)

If the attackers are citizens, is that not their right?

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 36):
And so it begins, EDL rioters in woolwich.

I'd be arresting these EDL supporters before they get a chance to wreak too much havoc. They aren't any better than the Islamists...



Flying refined.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 27):

What a cretin. I am sure nobody was terrorised by 2 men hacking a guy to death in front of their eyes. Never read anything so stupid in my life.

I witnessed a drive by shooting in London outside the Willesden Green tube station in 1997, the victim went through a plate glass window, I was shocked not terrorised. I don't see this as much different, sure it is shocking but I still don't think it's instilling terror in the masses.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 28):
People are justifiably shocked and appalled.

Exactly shocked and appalled, not terrorised, the term is being used to loosely these days, IMO.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5113 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 34):
No doubt, these attackers, who I admit are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law (Although that video is pretty damming evidence).
They will get some fluffy lawyer (paid for by the UK Taxpayer) who will claim mental insanity or broken childhood, religious persecution or some other human fluffy rights. No doubt, the judge will be left hamstrung by what he can do in the sentencing, and these attackers, if found guilty will be in some cushy prison hospital laughing at the system

As already stated and easy to check, the reality of those convicted of plotting attacks has not been anything like that.
These two today, will be different in that they are alive, (though one of them might not survive the gun shot wounds from the police, the 7/7 bombers of course blew themselves up.

Today we seem to have seen 'homicidal exhibitionists', it's like they wanted to get caught or shot by the police.

Terrible as today has been, of 31 credible plots in the UK over 10 years, only one, 7/7, has been successful.
I don't see too much 'bleeding hearts' from the authorities in going after and when convicted, the lengths of the sentences handed down. I don't who their lawyers were, who paid, they did not do them any good.
Four of them failed because of faulty bomb making, many of those now locked up were not too bright.
Though today IS a form of terrorism, it's not like the other attempts and 7/7.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 38):
I'd be arresting these EDL supporters before they get a chance to wreak too much havoc. They aren't any better than the Islamists...

We dont disagree, They are extremists from the other direction and complete tools.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5101 times:

Whatever the motives that is truly appalling and has left me feeling pretty disturbed and emotionally numb.   

I hope these people never experience freedom again.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5072 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 42):
hope these people never experience freedom again.

Her Majesties Prisons await, likely for the rest of their lives.
Or the secure facility for the criminally insane, Broadmoor, for the rest of their lives.

And once convicted, properly, in a court of law, hopefully forgotten about, by everyone including the media.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1903 posts, RR: 10
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5050 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 39):
the term is being used to loosely these days

Agreed. That's another negative outcome of 9/11: anytime anything big and terrible happens, everybody's mind jumps immediately to "terrorism". Until they get this scum awake and interrogated, we won't know if it's terrorism or not. Could easily just be a mentally ill man who snapped.

Quoting GDB (Reply 40):
Though today IS a form of terrorism, it's not like the other attempts and 7/7.

Again, I wouldn't be so hasty in labeling it as terrorism. The video is damning, but there is always more to the story.

Same goes with the Boston bombings. Of course they turned out to be terrorists, but people were labeling them as such simply from the methodology of the attack before we even had a full understanding of who the perps were or what their motivations were.

Now I'm just sitting here and waiting for all the conspiracy theorists to get online and claim this was a false flag operation  
Quoting GDB (Reply 43):
Or the secure facility for the criminally insane, Broadmoor, for the rest of their lives.

Sounds likely. Anybody who picks a guy on the street, runs him over, then hacks him to death, all in broad daylight hardly has his wits about him.

Either way, once proven guilty, throw away the key.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5034 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 44):
Either way, once proven guilty, throw away the key.

Here in lies the problem, The sentence will be miserly and worthless. The british courts dont back up the police with hefty punishments. Wouldn't be surprised to see them out after 6 or 7 years on some BS human rights condition.


User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6839 posts, RR: 11
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 34):
who will claim mental insanity or broken childhood, religious persecution or some other human fluffy rights

Unemployed, taken over by the dark side /crackpot islamic preacher who spouts everything they want to hear about why their lives are so crap - it's the whites who rule and need to be knocked off the top, the whites oppressing their (new) islamic brothers (and sisters) in Afghanistan, how the UK needs islamic laws to see the light, etc, etc, so go and kill a soldier in a brutal fashion and "spread the message".

And they didn't really do it, they were brainwashed.


There aren't enough bullets, volts & chemicals and hell ain't hot enough for those two.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6155 posts, RR: 29
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5035 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
The facts are though, in the UK at least, is that the 7/7 bombers, most of those the many now in prison for plotting attacks, were born and brought up in the UK,


I wonder if these people consider themselves UK citizens? I'm sure they do when their backs are up against the wall, but do they see themselves as something else first UK citizen second. I have seen that kind of thing with some Islamic high school students, I have worked with. They are born and bred US citizens, but continue to see themselves as wherever the parents/grand parents have come from. Some will even tell you they were born outside of the USA, but when you look at their enrollment records they were born no more than 10 miles from where they live today.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 37):
They waited 20 minutes for armed police to turn up.

That is terrible. No sworn police officer should ever have to wait for armed police officers. All police officers should carry a gun.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 34):
The attackers will probably get....

1. A lawyer paid for by legal aid (Public defender)

2. A high profile tree hugging fluffy human rights lawyer - on pro bono work

3. A high profile criminal defence lawyer who will look for maximum press coverage and "stick it" to the police.

4. They really are dumb as a box of rocks and defend themselves.


Your forgot something.... They will also get a lot of left wing idiots, who love to bash the UK because of it history of colonizing various places in the world, cheering them on.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5022 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 47):
That is terrible. No sworn police officer should ever have to wait for armed police officers. All police officers should carry a gun.

Problem with that is criminals are no longer going to turn up to a gun party with a knife. They're going to bring a gun themselves.

The police in this country are actually against being armed.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5022 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 47):
They are born and bred US citizens

They might be born US citizens but the breeding is something else.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 45):
Here in lies the problem, The sentence will be miserly and worthless. The british courts dont back up the police with hefty punishments.

You might want to just do a search for the cases of the last 10 years.
Sentences for terrorist related crimes are always heavy, in the past decade, for Islamist plotters, they've often been heavier that what the IRA terrorists got in the past for offences beyond that, including murder. In the last decade, sentences have got much more severe.
These are the facts.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6155 posts, RR: 29
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5007 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 48):
Problem with that is criminals are no longer going to turn up to a gun party with a knife. They're going to bring a gun themselves.

Police officers that I know are trained to be one up on somebody. Guy uses his fists, you use a club. Guy has a club use a taser, guy has a knife use a gun. Guy has a lot of guns, you call in more cops with guns. A lot of guys with guns, you call in a tank.

If this kind of crime becomes more common police will need to be carrying guns, or it will get worse. A terrorist can do a lot in 20 minutes while waiting for a policeman with a gun to show up. These guys aren't like a crook who steals the cash box from the local pub.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4937 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 51):

If this kind of crime becomes more common police will need to be carrying guns, or it will get worse.

The policeman with the gun has to be on site when the incident happens otherwise having a gun or not having a gun won't make a jot of a difference.


User currently offlineTupolevTu154 From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 2185 posts, RR: 28
Reply 53, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 47):
That is terrible. No sworn police officer should ever have to wait for armed police officers. All police officers should carry a gun.

That's a whole other can of worms you've just opened!



Atheists - Winning since 33 A.D.
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 38):

Yes that is there right.

It just grates that my taxes are being used on that scum.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17776 posts, RR: 46
Reply 55, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4690 times:

This reminds me of the axe attack in 2005 in London. What ended up being the motive of that?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4347919.stm



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 56, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4714 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Have no mercy on them, they lived by the machetes they should be executed by one in public, come on west have some courage and don't be soft on those criminals.


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 57, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4655 times:

Hmm, what would be so wrong with sending folks like these two off to a desolate island prison, like they did in Papillon. No death sentence, no martyrdom, no multitude of virgins to welcome them into heaven, just your basics surrounded by miles of ocean, as far as the eye can see.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4604 times:

There are no words for this... wow....

Can someone clarify something?

A quote in an aforementioned article:

Quoting TupolevTu154 (Reply 20):
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/22/woolwich-police-shooting-machete_n_3319793.html

A quote about midway down the article says both attackers are dead, but the article itself seems to say both attackers are still alive. Anyone know what the deal is?



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 58):
A quote about midway down the article says both attackers are dead, but the article itself seems to say both attackers are still alive. Anyone know what the deal is?

They ran over the guy with a car.. hacked him to death. Apparently severed his head (Multiple sources including a priest who witnessed it). Then stood around for 20 minutes shouting at cameras waiting for the armed police to arrive.. They charged the armed police officer and she shot them. Neither is dead, One was taken by helicopter the other by ambulance to seperate hospitals. Both alive.


User currently onlineshamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6361 posts, RR: 14
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

Absolutely shocked and sickened at this, I used to work in Woolwich and walked up the road where this happened almost daily for about two years. It has never been a particularly nice area, knife crime and muggings are common and there's been a lot of urban renewal to the town centre but doesn't seem to have changed much about the people living there.

However I don't think this type of attack has little to do with what type of area Woolwich happens to be, this a deeper issue within British society and what I can't help but wonder is how many men and women are sitting at home watching this on the news and quietly agreeing with what they've seen? The attacker sounded like any other Londoner to me so whatever made him do this could be working it's way into the minds of others with things like this only pushing them closer to committing similar attacks. That's the way fear works, it's how terror spreads and standing up and saying we're not afraid and we support each other can make it even easier for these people to fly under the radar until they strike, either in small numbers like this or in larger more coordinated attacks like 7/7 which was now nearly 8 years ago.

The EDL are now on the streets, arrest them, lock them up as they're nothing but thugs looking for a booze fuelled fight. Actually, they're just more extremists to add to the mess.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4443 times:

A disturbing trend in terrorism is the twisted lone wolf, a pair or small cell attacks by those that fit into the area where they want to attack, may be citizens of the country they are doing their terror act in or have clean records to police so can enter the country they want to attack. This one in London, the Boston bombing, the attempted one in NY Times Square and others had some of these elements in common. They are also shifting to 'softer' targets, not government buildings, but in the common business streets, people in 'normal' life situations.. They are also have no concern for what happens to them, indeed to die is honorable, to be caught less honorable if can screw up the peace of a trial.

The key issue is motivation. Many of those who do these terror acts seem to be of some intelligence, but are social losers, may be difficult at work, seemed to find something in their life by following an extreme subpart of their faith. They may come from home countries or raised with serious discrimination as to family, tribe, region they or their ancestors are from, a hatred for the 'west' for their bad history of economic or political control of their homelands to blame their own failures upon. So the answer is how do we change their motivation? That is something we need find.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days ago) and read 4395 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 22):
no wonder people are voting for UKIP ! Which is very dangerous and I dont agree with

My thoughts exactly. I believe a lot of Maggie type "true Conservatives" if you know what I mean could be tempted to lean this way as the current Conservatives are not blue enough, but hesitate due to their more extreme manifesto.

However, if an event like this happens near election time, or continues to happen in increasing numbers, I could see UKIP garnering a lot of impulse support from frustrated voters who were on the fence with the Conservatives. After all, who would possibly have thought Hitler could have got into power democratically. He used social angst to his advantage.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4746 posts, RR: 3
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days ago) and read 4381 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):

Interesting Quote SOBH151. are you sure you are true member of the religion of peace? Promoting such vengeance? You are pretty much advancing the logic by which these criminals lived by.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days ago) and read 4371 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 19):
Let human garbage flow unchecked into your country for 20 years, hand out passports like candy, and allow hate preachers to proliferate with no accountability,

Yes theres also a secular one called Altaf Hussain UK citizen running politics in Pakistan running thug party MQM composed of Indian origin Muslims in Pakistan, while living in exile since 20 years, can you ask your govt. to extradite this terrorist and how dare they give him citizen ship.


User currently offlineqantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4274 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 17):
The filthy bas**** who did it have thick london urban accents, No doubt they grew up here from a young age.. He just sits there talking to a camera like its a joke after hacking a man to death. I cant quite believe the video ... I'm gobsmacked.

and walking around in all the Chav gear that you can dream of...plus a nice pair of Adidas runners. astonishing video!



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4262 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 63):
nteresting Quote SOBH151. are you sure you are true member of the religion of peace? Promoting such vengeance? You are pretty much advancing the logic by which these criminals lived by.

Yes i am, but the west have to act to stop such criminals from threatening there population, years of courts, then a prison sentence, you will find some media picturing them as either heroes or victims. Is there a religion in the world where such criminals are not punished the way they deserve, committing such a barbaric deserve a tough and fast punishment.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 66):
Is there a religion in the world where such criminals are not punished the way they deserve

There's the fatal flaw. Religion is a personal relationship, not a penal code.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10804 posts, RR: 9
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4169 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 14):
Sadly this was waiting to happen. With the rise of Islamic extremists in the UK they have often caused disruption at the ceremonies for dead soldiers coming back from the ME and openly preached hate against the troops. This is not acceptable IMHO.

When you walk on some of London's streets these days you can often go into areas that are hot beds for these extremists and they live freely in the full knowledge of the Muslim community. Something needs to change drastically and the Muslim community in the UK need to act to show they are against all types of Islamic extremism. For too long its been a softly softly approach with plenty in these communities turning a blind eye.
Quoting gingersnap (Reply 15):
That is often said time and time again though. They don't act, and apologies if this offends anyone...

Same here. The muslim world keeps its mouth shut and turns their eyes away from the murders committed by their so-called brothers. Just a few singular outcries, a miserable alibi, nothing else. In Frankfurt I see radical Salafists, bound to bring down democracy, handing out the so-called "noble" Quoran for free. But muslims demonstrating against the murderers among them? Absolutely zero. I see more and more women wearing the Burkah here, despite a long-standing law forbidding mummery. That law is not enforced, as if the German society has surrendered to them. What a shame! Granted, more than 95% of the muslims are surely decent people who want no violence, but these immigrants or second generation people are in a minority everywhere in Europe and still appear as if condoning those acts of utter violence. Imho they put themselves in danger that way if it goes on like that. Tell me, how can you interprete that differently?


User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

I do wonder a little bit about what it was in these guys' personal lives that made them want to commit violence like this. As a right-wing American, I'm tempted to indulge in writing off all Muslims as being just like these dangerous psychos, when that's of course not true. It would seem to be that these individuals are homicidal psychos for another reason, and are using Islamism as a rationale for committing this monstrosity.

(I only wonder a little bit about the murderers' lives; I mean they're obviously not worth any time of ours, and as oly720man pointed out; hell ain't hot enough for those two.)

[Edited 2013-05-23 03:10:34]


Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4091 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
Have no mercy on them, they lived by the machetes they should be executed by one in public, come on west have some courage and don't be soft on those criminals.

I dont agree with that . It becomes a very sick and disturbed society when you have public hanging and killing. That maybe ok for Muslim Republics but its not for us in the West TBH !

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 62):
My thoughts exactly. I believe a lot of Maggie type "true Conservatives" if you know what I mean could be tempted to lean this way as the current Conservatives are not blue enough, but hesitate due to their more extreme manifesto.

Very true and people who have just had enough might just be swayed to vote the far right. Its dangerous when governments dont act.

Quoting 777way (Reply 64):
Yes theres also a secular one called Altaf Hussain UK citizen running politics in Pakistan running thug party MQM composed of Indian origin Muslims in Pakistan, while living in exile since 20 years, can you ask your govt. to extradite this terrorist and how dare they give him citizen ship.

Well him and alot of other Pakistanis who shouldnt have ever been given British passports. The list is endless. Sadly The UK let in various political figures from Pakistan and they use it as a launch pad for their activities back in Pakistan. Most British people would like them all out. Its a shadow on our failed immigration system but then again they also let in Pakistani wives and grandmothers who couldnt speak English and who will never integrate into society so its just a shame they were all let in . They add nothing to the country either in taxes or being a good contributer to society.

A huge shake up and strcit criteria needs to be ramped up for all non British nationals intending to aply for settling in the UK.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4077 times:

Too bad, another clear event indicating that multiculturalism has totally failed with most Islamic groups.

I hope Europeans wake up before all this has gotten totally out of control.

Unless Muslim communities start to act responsibly very soon the only real solution I see to this is exporting all big masses of uneducated Muslims living in ghettos of major European cities back to their home countries.

Immigrants who come here and then don't accept western values, laws and don't want to be part of the society of whatever country they go to cause only problems and should most definitely be sent back wherever they came from. Only those who actively seek for education / job and want to be part of the society & live honest good life should be allowed to stay, rest should go back and actually start working for better future in their own countries.

If this doesn't happen soon enough I can see things only going worse and worse until this whole failure collapses and violence goes boom.

Unfortunately especially in countries like Sweden media is full of propaganda, huge crime statistics of immigrants ( those mainly from Middle East and Africa) aren't openly talked about in TV & newspapers and so on. I don't know if big masses of ignorant sheep believing the media and the government will ever understand the truth.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2732 posts, RR: 3
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 71):
Immigrants who come here and then don't accept western values, laws and don't want to be part of the society of whatever country they go to cause only problems and should most definitely be sent back wherever they came from. Only those who actively seek for education / job and want to be part of the society & live honest good life should be allowed to stay, rest should go back and actually start working for better future in their own countries.

I agree with that, but isn't it getting a little off-topic? I read earlier in this thread that these attackers were likely born in the UK.



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 61):
A disturbing trend in terrorism is the twisted lone wolf, a pair or small cell attacks by those that fit into the area where they want to attack, may be citizens of the country they are doing their terror act in or have clean records to police so can enter the country they want to attack. This one in London, the Boston bombing, the attempted one in NY Times Square and others had some of these elements in common.

I think you've correctly identified a new and very frightening trend, LTBEWR. By all accounts, the Boston bombers had more or less been brought up in the USA - and judging by the 'London accent' of the guy doing the talking after this latest outrage, he probably had the same sort of background.

Can't help feeling that someone is radicalising these kids, turning them into terrorists. And presumably financing their ventures as well; guns and explosives, especially illegal ones, cost a lot of money. And I wouldn't be surprised if many of the 'someones' concerned include religious figures as well as lay people.

We just have to hope that the detectives in both countries manage to get some leads from the culprits as to who put them up to these outrages; even if it means that they get relatively lenient treatment by the courts when they go to trial - on grounds of 'diminished responsibility' or whatever.

Sounds crazy on the face of it - they all richly deserve to die. But the only way to stop yet more of these events occurring appears to be finding out, once and for all, who the 'conductors' are - not just giving the 'second violins' life imprisonment or the death penalty......



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4043 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 70):
I dont agree with that . It becomes a very sick and disturbed society when you have public hanging and killing. That maybe ok for Muslim Republics but its not for us in the West TBH !

So stop moaning ( talking in general terms), you need an iron fist to deal with those people, after all they are your citizens, not every time such an act happens everybody starts blaming Islam, your criminal code should deal with such people.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 61):
A disturbing trend in terrorism is the twisted lone wolf, a pair or small cell attacks by those that fit into the area where they want to attack, may be citizens of the country they are doing their terror act in or have clean records to police so can enter the country they want to attack. This one in London, the Boston bombing, the attempted one in NY Times Square and others had some of these elements in common. They are also shifting to 'softer' targets, not government buildings, but in the common business streets, people in 'normal' life situations.. They are also have no concern for what happens to them, indeed to die is honorable, to be caught less honorable if can screw up the peace of a trial.

A failed bomb attack on Bonn´s railway station in Germany a while ago now lead to to new traces pointing to a radical Islamist allready in prison for an attempted murder of a rightwing (neo-Nazi) politician. DNA of his wife and son were found on the unexploded bomb.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 63):
Interesting Quote SOBH151. are you sure you are true member of the religion of peace? Promoting such vengeance? You are pretty much advancing the logic by which these criminals lived by.

Actually the "turn the other cheek and forgive your enemies" is Christian. From what I understand from Islam (and other religions, like Sikhism) is that one shouldn´t pick a fight, but if attacked fight back with all means.
And if it means a messy execution "pour encourager less outres" so be it.

Jan


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4018 times:

Quoting Airstud (Reply 72):
I agree with that, but isn't it getting a little off-topic? I read earlier in this thread that these attackers were likely born in the UK.

Oh yea I think you might be right, didn't bother reading through this particular event too much. Anyway I was thinking also about 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants to be sent back if they can't behave, not only those actual first generation ones...

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 74):
criminal code should deal with such people.

Unfortunately the same politicians that decided to take all the uneducated immigrants in also usually supports soft criminal law with short sentences... And in many countries also media is more or less under control of rich politicians & majority of people unfortunately are sheep who go with whatever BS big mass media tells them.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 74):
So stop moaning ( talking in general terms), you need an iron fist to deal with those people, after all they are your citizens, not every time such an act happens everybody starts blaming Islam, your criminal code should deal with such people.

Life in jail is good enough with no chance of ever being released. We dont need or want public hanging. Its the stuff that you get in Iran/KSA and we dont want that society thanks  

---

One of the two Men has been named as Michael Adeboloja who is a Muslim Nigerian apparently.

news.sky.com


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 70):
they also let in Pakistani wives and grandmothers who couldnt speak English and who will never integrate into society so its just a shame they were all let in .

Sounds more racist than rational, also couldn't help notice your u-turn on this community and musilms since I think you and your Pakistani partner separated. I recall the bad rap you would get here being called apologist etc. for speaking up for the very people and community you have such disdain for now.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 77):
Michael Adeboloja who is a Muslim Nigerian apparently.

First thing converts do is take on an Islamic name even by coercion of their converters, especiallly this backward variety, there are very few converts who know that changing name is not really needed. So very strange his name being Christian.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 71):
Immigrants who come here and then don't accept western values, laws and don't want to be part of the society of whatever country they go to cause only problems and should most definitely be sent back wherever they came from. Only those who actively seek for education / job and want to be part of the society & live honest good life should be allowed to stay, rest should go back and actually start working for better future in their own countries.

Agree and always said so.

[Edited 2013-05-23 04:33:20]

User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6839 posts, RR: 11
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 73):
Can't help feeling that someone is radicalising these kids, t

According to the Sun, both the perpetrators had close links to a known "hate preacher" Anjem Choudary who used to lead a now banned group

potted history here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anjem_Choudary
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...name-man-as-Michael-Adebolajo.html



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 78):
Sounds more racist than rational, also couldn't help notice your u-turn on this community and musilms since I think you and your Pakistani partner separated. I recall the bad rap you would get here being called apologist etc. for speaking up for the very people and community you have such disdain for now.

Well my Fathers Asian so the racist thing is a stupid thing to say. Growing up in London in the 80s we were the victim of racism and having your Father called a Paki is not the nicest thing!! Dont mix sensible immigration policy and common sense with the two . Distain?? ( I think you meant ) Really I thought you more educated than that to make such a stupid statement. I have Indian and Pakistani friends many of them since school days and they say the same thing. They also say the same thing about the rise of Islamic extremism in the UK and the ghettos that exist in those communities.

I have had relationships with a few Pakistani guys and have an in depth knowledge of this culture and community. I think that sometimes you are a bit too close to the situation being Pakistani yourself so find it hard to be subjective. Yes of course I have been accused in the past of being anti Jewish because of my views of the Palestinians and plenty of times I have come under fire for supporting Muslims . Equally when the Muslims dont agree with me when I speak out on issues like this then I get accused of being Anti Pakistani or Muslim.

Dont worry though it goes over my head as I know what I am and people who know me know my character and views so I dont care which side decides to say Im anti this or anti that. Im more educated and smart not to take it to heart   It says more about the people saying these things than me.

Quoting 777way (Reply 78):
First thing converts do is take on an Islamic name even by coercion of their converters, especiallly this backward variety, there are very few converts who know that changing name is not really needed. So very strange his name being Christian.

In Nigeria there are plenty of Christian names who are Muslims. We have a large enough community of Christian and Muslim Nigerians here in Ireland. There were some in my former company. The topic often came up when there was a bombing in Nigeria by Boko Haram.

BTW Im still waiting for major Muslim community leaders in the UK to come on TV and speak at their outrage of these attacks ??


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3888 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 77):
We dont need or want public hanging. Its the stuff that you get in Iran/KSA and we dont want that society thanks

Ok i could agree about public hanging, sensitivity etc... How about a new law concerning acts of terrorism where if a person is found guilty he will face a death sentence? In my first response i sounded a little harsh but those acts do a lot of harm to more than a billion peaceful Muslims around the world.
Philip you area friend and if anybody accuses you of being racist that person is 100% is wrong.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 81):
How about a new law concerning acts of terrorism where if a person is found guilty he will face a death sentence?

Why is it that you want to encourage civilized western societies to expand the use of the death penalty, while at the same time not condemning that this act was done in the name of Islam. Very curious behavior. Shouldn't you be condemning yesterday's attack first?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2671 posts, RR: 5
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3853 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

I am disgusted that someone going about their daily business could be attacked in such a heinous and cowardly way. I'm disgusted that instead of supporting the men and women who put their lives on the line fighting on a dangerous front line somewhere in the world, keeping people safe, they are murdered in cold blood.

"If you're not prepared to stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them".

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
Attackers were shot during the incident and are now in hospital.

Frankly, they shouldn't be in hospital, they're a drain on NHS resources. They should be denied treatment.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 34):
The attackers will probably get....

1. A lawyer paid for by legal aid (Public defender)

2. A high profile tree hugging fluffy human rights lawyer - on pro bono work

3. A high profile criminal defence lawyer who will look for maximum press coverage and "stick it" to the police.

4. They really are dumb as a box of rocks and defend themselves.

Unfortunately.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
Have no mercy on them, they lived by the machetes they should be executed by one in public, come on west have some courage and don't be soft on those criminals.

The death penalty would be too kind, even if it were available as an option in UK courts. They should be locked up for life and tortured  



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3840 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 82):
the use of the death penalty, while at the same time not condemning that this act was done in the name of Islam

I can not understand you, if asking the death penalty for act of terrorism such as this brutal murder is not a condemnation, then what is? If you continued reading my post i stated

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 81):
In my first response i sounded a little harsh but those acts do a lot of harm to more than a billion peaceful Muslims around the world.

Point proven.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 80):
Christian names who are Muslims.

looks like he's from a Christian family and got interested in Islam at 16 or so. Like the guys in Boston, Islam is just a way to lash out and do harm.

Like most of them, religion is just an excuse, this years fad.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 79):
According to the Sun, both the perpetrators had close links to a known "hate preacher" Anjem Choudary

I suspect that you've hit the nail on the head, oly720man.

I'd expect that that guy is being subjected to frequent visits from the 'CID' - British police abbreviation for 'Criminal Investigation Department.'

Hope very much that they 'get their man.'



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3823 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 81):
Ok i could agree about public hanging, sensitivity etc... How about a new law concerning acts of terrorism where if a person is found guilty he will face a death sentence?

When you come from a society such as in UK and Ireland its hard to sanction this. When your angry and something like this happens its a natural reaction to want it but when you calm down and think it through I think life in jail is better. You loose your freedom and rights which is the way it should be. If you kill them they become heroes some say.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 81):
Philip you area friend and if anybody accuses you of being racist that person is 100% is wrong.

Thanks and I always have had the highest respect for you and your posts. We dont always agree but you know me and I know you . We rise above the accusations and FB


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 84):
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 81):
In my first response i sounded a little harsh but those acts do a lot of harm to more than a billion peaceful Muslims around the world.

Point proven.

Point not proven. Your first three replies had nothing to do with condemning this act in the name of Islam. They were simply missives that the west adopt Islamic-style laws:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
Have no mercy on them, they lived by the machetes they should be executed by one in public,
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 66):
committing such a barbaric deserve a tough and fast punishment.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 74):
So stop moaning ( talking in general terms), you need an iron fist to deal with those people

Simply saying this incident does more harm to peaceful Muslims while advocating Islamic-style justice isn't condemning the acts which took place in the name of Islam yesterday.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

These people were often seen in the town centre with leaflets and a stall which preached hate. This kind of stuff should not be tolerated. It just shows you how far its gone when its safe for these people to openly have these stalls in the streets of London yet heroes who have fought to protect the UK are not safe to walk their own streets.

The MCB ( Muslim Council of Britain ) are about to hold a news conference. I am hoping for some real meaningful comments from them in terms of unconditional outrage at this attack.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5723 posts, RR: 44
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3768 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 81):
In my first response i sounded a little harsh but those acts do a lot of harm to more than a billion peaceful Muslims around the world.

Yes but this kind of lip service

Quoting bbc:
The Muslim Council of Britain said the murder was "a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly".

means nothing until the billion (closer to 2 or more) "peaceful" Muslims turn on the relativley few renegedes and make it very clear they are the problem and will not be tolerated.
Until that happens all the crap about "this is not about islam" is just that .. crap.
Until you.. yes you, SOB & 777 and your billion + confederates make it clear to those amongst you who are practising (more importantly the so called clerics that are preaching it) this evil are pariahs and must reform, then you can expect the freedom and peace loving citizens of this world to consider you all unwelcome in their society.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 88):
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
Have no mercy on them, they lived by the machetes they should be executed by one in public,
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 66):
committing such a barbaric deserve a tough and fast punishment.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 74):
So stop moaning ( talking in general terms), you need an iron fist to deal with those people

Simply saying this incident does more harm to peaceful Muslims while advocating Islamic-style justice isn't condemning the acts which took place in the name of Islam yesterday.

Actually, as I get older, I think that there are people society would do better without. But don´t give them a glamorous send off. Trial, petition and then do it without any celbration or ceremony, like the old Russian style: Drag them out to a sandpit in the prison backyard, one bullet into the head and then burial in an anonymous grave somewhere in the prison yards (the old British custom for executed prisoners), or cremation and scattering of the ashes in some unnamed river (as was done to the Nazi war criminlas to prevent the creation of a shrine).
Or, set up a prison colony in some very remote place. E.g. an island (like the French had in Cayenne) or like a Soviet or Czarist Gulag in the Taiga or a desert. No contact to the outside, no letters, no telephone calls. Mean discipline, minimum comforts and serious misbehaviour there punished by summary execution.
A place where escape from will mean certain death.

Jan


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 92, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 91):
Or, set up a prison colony in some very remote place. E.g. an island (like the French had in Cayenne) or like a Soviet or Czarist Gulag in the Taiga or a desert.

Can't argue with that!  

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 57):
Hmm, what would be so wrong with sending folks like these two off to a desolate island prison, like they did in Papillon. No death sentence, no martyrdom, no multitude of virgins to welcome them into heaven, just your basics surrounded by miles of ocean, as far as the eye can see.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 93, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3729 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 88):
Your first three replies had nothing to do with condemning this act in the name of Islam.

If you read back in my different posting i am always condemning any acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam, i am fed up from words i am asking for actions, few hundreds in the west will suffer from those actions, in the same time around two billions Muslims will get a bad rap for something they do condemn
As for the death penalty, the USA still have it so why not other parts of the world legalize this sentence in case of act of terrorism?
Now if this is not enough condemnation from my part, then tough, this is the best i can do.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5723 posts, RR: 44
Reply 94, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3719 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 93):
in the same time around two billions Muslims will get a bad rap for something they do condemn

The tragedy is they do not condemn it enough.. a few "leaders" or " clerics" say what is expected in response to the outrage of the moment yet nothing is done.. if your two billion Muslim brothers do not like their bad rep then there is only one group that can fix that.. yes the two billion .. cut out the rot!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 95, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 93):
i am fed up from words i am asking for actions, few hundreds in the west will suffer from those actions, in the same time around two billions Muslims will get a bad rap for something they do condemn

Your concern seems more about Islam getting a bad rap from the actions by these two hoodlums, than for the victim in this.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 93):
As for the death penalty, the USA still have it so why not other parts of the world legalize this sentence in case of act of terrorism?

Why is that any of your concern?

How about first showing some sympathy for the victim, his family and friends, then condemning the perversion of a religion which is supposed to be about peace, rather than for reigning more violence upon the world?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2696 posts, RR: 4
Reply 96, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3697 times:

If I may be controversial here, moving on from causes to punishment for a moment.

I've long considered that anyone seen to kill someone, should endure their victims death once trialled and found guilty.
Shooting, hanging, gassing or injecting them is too quick and painless. Locking them up for "life" (which in Britain means they'll be free within 7 to 12 years later) simply does not fit the crime. They robbed someone of their life, by doing so they denied their victim his basic human rights.
Better to hold them down and forcibly shove a knife into their necks and hack away, slowly and inefficiently. In their final moments they would realise the horror they inflicted upon their victim.

But... we're in a civilised world. Such an act of punishment is not civilised. And to be honest, even though the thought comes from deepest recesses of my own head, I could not condone such a punishment as it just as barbaric as the very act that these men visited upon their victim.

So what can we do?!

IMO, a more civilised method is to write a sub paragraph in the human rights charter, stating that those who wilfully kill another person forfeit their own human rights. This would then allow us to throw bastards like these two gentlemen into a deep, dark and damp hole with naught but a bowl of gruel and some water to sustain them every day.

The reality however is much grimmer (in the eyes of justice):
These two will probably spend 7 to 12 years in a spacious prison cell with satellite TV, 3 meals a day and pocket money if they do chores. Once they get out, they'll probably get new identities (to protect them), a job handed to them and a place to live. They'll have carte blanch to start all over again, like nothing happens. No harm, no foul.

Gah.... makes my blood boil.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 90):
Until you.. yes you, SOB & 777 and your billion confederates make it clear to those amongst you who are practising (more importantly the so called clerics that are preaching it) this evil are pariahs and must reform,

Since 9/11 that's exactly what is being told to mullahs and associates by the general populace on Pakistani TV channels, protests etc, without caring for any consequences people are speaking out including women, don't know how it is in other countries.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 95):

How about first showing some sympathy for the victim, his family and friends,

But what if he was racist and hated muslims and colourds, and enjoyed participating in or supported the invasions and the killings?

Why did these guys choose him at random, or did they know him or something about him from before? though it dosent justify what happened in anyway.

[Edited 2013-05-23 08:01:23]

User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 98, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3659 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 95):
Your concern seems more about Islam getting a bad rap from the actions by these two hoodlums, than for the victim in this.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 95):
How about first showing some sympathy for the victim, his family and friends, then condemning the perversion of a religion which is supposed to be about peace, rather than for reigning more violence upon the world?

I did not see any words of sympathy from your part to the victim and his family, unless you consider Blimey as an expression of sympathy, but asking for justice to the victim and his family is an expression of sympathy.
Yes i am concerned about the bad rap Islam is getting from such stupid act of terrorism.
But i am also asking for harsh laws and sentences to protect the world from such acts including you, me and all others.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently onlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4746 posts, RR: 3
Reply 99, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3644 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 66):
Is there a religion in the world where such criminals are not punished the way they deserve, committing such a barbaric deserve a tough and fast punishment.

They deserve punishment, but public displays of vengeance are no different from what these guys did and perpetuates the problem People do not see it as punishment. Public executions only serve to inflame emotions and provide more justification for killing with religious authority. . Especially in places like Saudi where the Religion is the law.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 100, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3620 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 98):
I did not see any words of sympathy from your part to the victim and his family, unless you consider Blimey as an expression of sympathy, but asking for justice to the victim and his family is an expression of sympathy.

"Blimey" was my expression of shock at the heinousness of the crime. I didn't ask for a revenge killing in return. I come from a mostly secular background. It appears odd to me, and others like me, to see the defense of a religion first and foremost, put before an expression of concern for any victims of the religion's perversion.

What my attempt here is not to condemn your religion, but to help open your eyes as to how a platform of 'violence for violence' before a condemnation of the heinous act done in its name doesn't paint it as a religion with a firm foundation in peace. Only you and your brethren can change that impression, if you so desire.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 101, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3613 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 96):
These two will probably spend 7 to 12 years in a spacious prison cell with satellite TV, 3 meals a day and pocket money if they do chores. Once they get out, they'll probably get new identities (to protect them), a job handed to them and a place to live. They'll have carte blanch to start all over again, like nothing happens. No harm, no foul.

Gah.... makes my blood boil.

Same for American spies caught here, usually put in some nice house serving as jail, tended to by diplomatic staff and then sent back home to live under new identities, or back to the real ones, as they came here as fakes, their cars are with fake plates etc. some are caught and shown live on TV just sitting in car and claiming diplomatic immunity.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1903 posts, RR: 10
Reply 102, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3602 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 51):
Guy has a lot of guns, you call in more cops with guns. A lot of guys with guns, you call in a tank.

I agree that all on-duty police officers should be armed, but there's a bit of a hole in your logic: How many police officers are injured or killed waiting for that backup? It's far better to take action to prevent them needing that backup in the first place.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 83):
Frankly, they shouldn't be in hospital, they're a drain on NHS resources. They should be denied treatment.

Stupid comment.  

Whether you like it or not, doctors are trained to not make personal judgments on patients. They treat everyone equally as a human. When people need healthcare, they need it now, there's time for judgment later.

Furthermore, as far as we know, these men are British citizens and are entitled to the exact same rights as any other British citizen, regardless if they've committed murder. If you start being selective about equality, you might as well set yourself back 100 years.

As shocking and appalling this crime is, it's not much more shocking and appalling than people calling for the denial of rights to people who have yet to be convicted, or even charged, with a crime.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 88):
Your first three replies had nothing to do with condemning this act in the name of Islam.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 95):
How about first showing some sympathy for the victim, his family and friends, then condemning the perversion of a religion which is supposed to be about peace, rather than for reigning more violence upon the world?

AeroWesty, your posts concern me here. You seem to be holding SOHIB to a different standard than the rest of our A-net members for reasons clearly unknown to me. Not every poster in this thread has condemned these acts (I'm not even sure if I did) yet you only pick on one. I find that rather unsettling from someone I expect much more of...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 89):
These people were often seen in the town centre with leaflets and a stall which preached hate.

We have the opposite here in Toronto. There's a street corner in the Entertainment District where I often see a couple Muslim guys with a table with literature that teaches about peaceful Islam, while 20 feet away there's this guy with big signs with Bible verses on them screaming at the top of his lungs about "sin" and "fiery hell" and what have you...

Quoting garpd (Reply 96):
IMO, a more civilised method is to write a sub paragraph in the human rights charter, stating that those who wilfully kill another person forfeit their own human rights. This would then allow us to throw bastards like these two gentlemen into a deep, dark and damp hole with naught but a bowl of gruel and some water to sustain them every day.

The problem being that the more you add to the charter, the more that is up for challenge in court.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 103, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
AeroWesty, your posts concern me here. You seem to be holding SOHIB to a different standard than the rest of our A-net members for reasons clearly unknown to me. Not every poster in this thread has condemned these acts (I'm not even sure if I did) yet you only pick on one. I find that rather unsettling from someone I expect much more of

Thanks for the candor in your comments. My impression of the above hundred or so posts (which I've reviewed again prior to this post) generally fall into one of the following:

• Shock at the crime;
• Sympathy for the victim;
• Resignation and despair that the punishment will never fit the crime; or
• Eye for an eye, initially a public display of such.

I'm generally a call a spade a spade kinda guy. If one poster's comments are an outlier to the others, replies to them may stand out more than replies to others. It simply goes with the territory.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSoJo From UK - England, joined Nov 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3566 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I just want to add to the horror I feel about this event. It's beyond belief. Now as some have pointed out, they MAY spend the rest of their lives in prison. But, who's going to pay to keep these murderers inside? Justice should be served and I personally would send them to a UK military prison and see how long they last. They don't deserve to live. Alternatively,the UK has so many isolated islands build the prisons there. All Cameron can say is "We won't give into terrorism." Whimp! Let's face it, with HIS security people, he's never going to face a situation like this. This stupid country has gone down the plug hole big time. Then 2014 we can expect some more favourable people to come in. Glad I'm 65 and won't be around when the UK goes tits up.


RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 105, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3566 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 100):
It appears odd to me, and others like me, to see the defense of a religion first and foremost, put before an expression of concern for any victims of the religion's perversion.

Where do you see in my first posting any mention of religion? Or as a matter of fact my second posting i did not mention or defended Islam.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
Have no mercy on them, they lived by the machetes they should be executed by one in public, come on west have some courage and don't be soft on those criminals.


[Edited 2013-05-23 08:52:40]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 106, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
Furthermore, as far as we know, these men are British citizens and are entitled to the exact same rights as any other British citizen, regardless if they've committed murder. If you start being selective about equality, you might as well set yourself back 100 years.

There's always the dream...


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 107, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3540 times:

Quoting SoJo (Reply 104):
All Cameron can say is "We won't give into terrorism." Whimp! Let's face it, with HIS security people, he's never going to face a situation like this.

Brighton, England, October 12, 1984.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 105):
Where do you see in my first posting any mention of religion?

I used the term "first and foremost", not "first post".



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1903 posts, RR: 10
Reply 108, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 103):
I'm generally a call a spade a spade kinda guy. If one poster's comments are an outlier to the others, replies to them may stand out more than replies to others. It simply goes with the territory.

Well my own observation is that there have been many on this thread calling for death of these perpetrators (some even calling for torture, which is absolutely repulsive and not deserving of any further acknowledgement), so I don't see SOHIB's comments as being an outlier. I feel that he genuinely condemns these acts, even if he hasn't effectively communicated as such. He has been highly critical of these extremists in other threads as well.   



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 109, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3521 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 108):
even if he hasn't effectively communicated as such

I CONDEMN STRONGLY ANY ACT OF TERRORISM COMMITTED BY ANY RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS AND ESPECIALLY ISLAMIC because the Islam i follow taught me peace and acceptance of others, i did and will never discriminate against any other human on grounds of race or religion.
Westjet747 Thank you.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 110, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3501 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 108):
I don't see SOHIB's comments as being an outlier.

Here are the other posts I've seen calling for death:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 34):
I would like to see these attackers swing from the gallows - But current human right laws I believe forbid execution.
Quoting oly720man (Reply 46):
There aren't enough bullets, volts & chemicals and hell ain't hot enough for those two.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 91):
Drag them out to a sandpit in the prison backyard, one bullet into the head and then burial in an anonymous grave somewhere in the prison yards

What sets these posts apart is that they aren't in the context of "y'all are a bunch of softies—give them death!", which to me, in context of the rest of the SOHIB's comments, make his outliers to the rest of the posts in this thread, even those calling for death.

Just my    as well.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineshamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6361 posts, RR: 14
Reply 111, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3493 times:

The soldier murdered in a terrorist attack near a military barracks in Woolwich has been named as Drummer Lee Rigby, he was 25 and had a two-year-old son.

http://news.sky.com/story/1094804/woolwich-terror-attack-soldier-named

Very sad, heart goes out to his family.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 89):
The MCB ( Muslim Council of Britain ) are about to hold a news conference. I am hoping for some real meaningful comments from them in terms of unconditional outrage at this attack.

Didn't see the press conference but it wouldn't surprise if went something a long the lines of, "we don't agree with it, Islam is a peaceful religion, nothing to do with us, not our problem" which is what most of these things end up sounding like. Well I'm afraid it is their problem, these people are embedded in their community and use it to go undetected as they plot these horrendous crimes. It's about time these "community leaders" started tackling the problem instead of inadvertently shielding them through their inaction.

[Edited 2013-05-23 10:00:47]

User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2671 posts, RR: 5
Reply 112, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3491 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
Whether you like it or not, doctors are trained to not make personal judgments on patients. They treat everyone equally as a human. When people need healthcare, they need it now, there's time for judgment later.

Doctors are human too.

If I were a doctor, I'd refuse to treat them. Not that it'd make any difference as there'd be someone else to treat them - the only thing that happens is that I'd probably be banned from practising medicine ever again.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
Furthermore, as far as we know, these men are British citizens and are entitled to the exact same rights as any other British citizen, regardless if they've committed murder. If you start being selective about equality, you might as well set yourself back 100 years.

As shocking and appalling this crime is, it's not much more shocking and appalling than people calling for the denial of rights to people who have yet to be convicted, or even charged, with a crime.

As an aspiring lawyer, the rational side of me agrees with what you've posted. Yes, everyone is entitled to a fair trial, no matter the crime, and they cannot be denied their rights until such time as they have been tried and convicted.

But the emotional side of me cannot fathom why they should be allowed their "rights" when they had so violently and callously denied the rights of their victim, and one of the accused has even confessed to committing the crime. That poor soldier was not a casualty of war, he was murdered in cold blood in his own country.

Incidentally, the victim has been named as Lee Rigby: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22644857

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 108):
(some even calling for torture, which is absolutely repulsive and not deserving of any further acknowledgement)

More repulsive than the murder itself?

[Edited 2013-05-23 09:24:59]


Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7847 posts, RR: 19
Reply 113, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

I dont know how this degraded into a debate about the nature of Islam but here's wat has me worried-

If any religion at all threatens violence, they lost all credibility and should be treated as a police threat to society.

No religion has any right to say who is going to heaven or going to hell. We are on this planet not because we are to die, but because we are to live out our lives in a good way.

No religion should ever justify such violence as "god's ideals." No one should support this, and especially with the violence associated with Jihad, I think that this type of violence should be forcibly quelled by the members of their own religion.
Just imagine if the WBC became a militant group. I guarantee you they'd all be wiped out within a month.

No matter how you put it, these guys abused religion to justify their actions. They have severe mental disabilities, and they should be dealt with severely. Ringed out for all their information in order to prevent future attacks.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 114, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3465 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 109):
n context of the rest of the SOHIB's comments, make his outliers to the rest of the posts in this thread, even those calling for death.

And not because i am a Muslim defending Islam first and foremost as you kept mentioning in your posts or because i did not show any sympathy to the victim and his family. Can you make up your mind.

[Edited 2013-05-23 09:53:37]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 115, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 114):
Can you make up your mind.

I'm not exactly sure what you believe I'm being indecisive about. I've allowed my posts to be freely scrutinized and replied without repercussion, so I consider this tangent of the conversation closed.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2050 posts, RR: 15
Reply 116, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 90):
means nothing until the billion (closer to 2 or more) "peaceful" Muslims turn on the relativley few renegades and make it very clear they are the problem and will not be tolerated.

This.

Each time something like this happens, we see lots of platitudes from Western Muslim leadership about how these acts aren't the true nature of their religion. Where are the protests? Where are the attempts to root out these troublemakers, bring them to the authorities, and try to clear the name of Islam? When someone draws a foolish cartoon of the prophet Muhammad, we see thousands of Muslims take to the street all over the world almost instantaneously. But when people are brutally murdered in the name of Islam, we get press conferences and platitudes, and claims that Muslims are victims of prejudice and misunderstanding. Always the victim. Never responsible for the actions of their followers. Do they ever stop to wonder why this might be?

Until this kind of critical self-examination happens, the other six billion of us on this planet will continue to regard Islam with extreme suspicion, and Muslims living in Western nations will find their welcome mat increasingly wearing out. Patience is growing very, very thin in Europe, Australia and the US.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 117, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3426 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

[

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 115):
I'm not exactly sure what you believe I'm being indecisive about.

Because you keep jumping from one accusation to another.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 115):
so I consider this tangent of the conversation closed.

Good you should have done that long time ago.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1903 posts, RR: 10
Reply 118, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 110):
What sets these posts apart is that they aren't in the context of "y'all are a bunch of softies—give them death!", which to me, in context of the rest of the SOHIB's comments, make his outliers to the rest of the posts in this thread, even those calling for death.

Just my    as well.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. I see them all as being the same. But we each have the right to our own interpretation, so I'll leave it at that!

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):
If I were a doctor, I'd refuse to treat them.

Chances are the ER doc wouldn't know the circumstances of the incoming patients' injuries as it's not important. They probably only need to know what the injuries are that need to be treated. I doubt any doctors at the hospital are watching TV at work, so they wouldn't know what transpired until after their shift.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):
But the emotional side of me cannot fathom why they should be allowed their "rights" when they had so violently and callously denied the rights of their victim, and one of the accused has even confessed to committing the crime.

Thinking with one's heart instead of one's head is a critical flaw. Emotions will almost always lead to regrettable decisions that you likely wouldn't make under a cooler head. We're all best off being shocked and horrified by this senseless murder, but all the while maintaining some decorum about us and ensuring that these guys get fair treatment until they receive a fair trial, and at that point, once found guilty, can we talk about refusing rights.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):
That poor soldier was not a casualty of war, he was murdered in cold blood in his own country.

Some (not me) will argue differently. In the video, which I'm sure everyone has seen by now, the one guy with the knives talks about women in his "land" having to see murders like that all the time, possibly alluding to the UK's involvement in Afghanistan and/or Iraq, which further confuses things for me because he is Nigerian, and I can't recall the UK having any involvement in the Boko Haram conflict.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):
More repulsive than the murder itself?

Yes.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 119, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

I can understand people calling for torture actually. It's not something i agree with, i don't agree with the death penalty either. This persons should be locked up for life though. They have done a truly horrendous thing and i can understand why people don't feel prison is enough.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 120, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 118):
I'll have to respectfully disagree. I see them all as being the same.

I'm not trying to get the last word in, just to clarify a point. The first post by this member set the tone, in my belief, in a context of 'us vs. them':

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
come on west have some courage

(I took 'west' to mean the western hemisphere or western nations, not short for Westy.   )

With that, I'm off to appointments. Have a good day.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 121, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3385 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting oly720man (Reply 79):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anjem_Choudary

This is a very dangerous guy.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 79):
According to the Sun, both the perpetrators had close links to a known "hate preacher" Anjem Choudary who used to lead a now banned group

If this is proven this guy must face prosecution for murder.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 122, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3376 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
The first post by this member set the tone, in my belief, in a context of 'us vs. them':

First this member have a name and you used it few times.
Yes it is us the world against them the terrorists.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
(I took 'west' to mean the western hemisphere or western nations, not short for Westy.   )

If i wanted to type Westy i would have done it  



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 123, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

I think this murder is being blown all out of proportion to what it really was, two idiots stabbing a guy to death on the side of a road. I don't think that fact that these twits were muslim means anything, it's more of a hate crime than anything else. Turning it into a media circus doesn't make sense to me, it was a nasty murder but don't read anything more into it. Had they gone on a machete massacre Ugandian style then I think the attention would be warranted.

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 124, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3310 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 62):
My thoughts exactly. I believe a lot of Maggie type "true Conservatives" if you know what I mean could be tempted to lean this way as the current Conservatives are not blue enough, but hesitate due to their more extreme manifesto.

The thing with them is, when we first saw manifestations of extreme Islamism in the UK, were the calls from some for the murder of Salmam Rushdie, for writing a book that few of his detractors had even read (those of them throughout the world that actually could even read), all based on deliberate provocations from their 'spiritual leaders'.
While the right thing was done with protecting Rushdie (that is, defending the right to free speech), the government of the day did not even attempt to prosecute any of those here that incited murder. This is a crime here, many did it to TV cameras.
I feel a dangerous precedent was set right there, the PM of the day, Thatcher.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 83):
Frankly, they shouldn't be in hospital, they're a drain on NHS resources. They should be denied treatment.

Another precedent we don't want to set. Where does it lead?
Besides, while it is likely those two acted alone, it's far from certain. Are there networks they might be a part of? Do they know like minded others? Those who do not show out like so many others now in prison, starting by suspicious trips to Pakistan and/or trying to source ammonium nitrate as an explosive.
Cannot find this out if they are dead.
While the police officer who shot them would, under UK police doctrine, 'fired to stop', in this case they survived. Though one of them might yet expire from wounds.

Much admiration for that Cub Scout Leader, a middle aged lady, who confronted them, challenged them, kept them busy talking to her not attacking anyone else, while they had blood drenched weapons and some reports, including from her, a revolver. (Not sure if it was real or a replica).

Despite the horror of this murder, I remain convinced that aside from their arrest, detention, or if it comes it, their elimination, is to make as few changes to our way of life as possible.
That's what these fanatics are attacking after all.


User currently onlineshamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6361 posts, RR: 14
Reply 125, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 123):
I think this murder is being blown all out of proportion to what it really was, two idiots stabbing a guy to death on the side of a road. I don't think that fact that these twits were muslim means anything, it's more of a hate crime than anything else.

They murdered a British soldier "in the name of Allah" and declared war on the British people saying "you and your children will be next" so that alone makes it more that two idiots stabbing a guy to death. Stabbings happen regularly in London, many of them have been fatal but what makes this different is the way it was carried out and message that was attached to it.

At least one of the suspects has now been linked to a banned radical group and both were apparently known to the security forces in the UK. The man videoed had previously been arrested on his way to join Al Shabaab in Somalia so although neither are believed to part of a wider terror group they were radical and it would be foolish for us to just class them as two idiots when they are probably not alone, it's likely there are many more of them with similar plots in mind.

Two more people have been arrested.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...urder-following-terror-attack.html


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 126, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Actually, being British citizens (or British Subjects), can´t they be tried under the treason laws and helping an enemy during wartime?

Jan


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 127, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 116):
the other six billion of us on this planet will continue to regard Islam with extreme suspicion,

non whites don't really care, so make that a fraction, yes theres trouble off and on in some non white countries but nothing like the paranoia and dislike of the west, barring a few non white countries the most of the earth is third world / poor, and more concerned with other issues.

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 116):
and Muslims living in Western nations will find their welcome mat increasingly wearing out. Patience is growing very, very thin in Europe, Australia and the US.

There is a whole world out there other than those places you mentioned, feel free to add Canada to your list too.


User currently offlinecorinthians From United States of America, joined May 2008, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 128):
non whites don't really care, so make that a fraction, yes theres trouble off and on in some non white countries but nothing like the paranoia and dislike of the west, barring a few non white countries the most of the earth is third world / poor, and more concerned with other issues.

Hmmm...Philippines? Thailand? India? China? Russia? Copts? Lebanese/Syrian Christians? They all have problems with Islamic terrorism and all view Islam with as much if not more suspicion than the West.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 129, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3238 times:

Quoting corinthians (Reply 129):

Yeah but they are non white and not paranoid as you imagine, for you all its more a white west vs islam thing, for them there is nothing like that, yes there are issues but not like yours. They are in their own countries, societies, ethnicities, races, not as outsiders in a racially and culturally different west.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 130, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 126):
"you and your children will be next" so that alone makes it more that two idiots stabbing a guy to death.

Sure sounds like a couple of idiots to me.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 131, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3212 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 130):
Yeah but they are non white and not paranoid as you imagine, for you all its more a white west vs islam thing, for them there is nothing like that, yes there are issues but not like yours. They are in their own countries, societies, ethnicities, races, not as outsiders in a racially and culturally different west.

Racist much? I didn't think out and out racism and prejudice was tolerated here.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1722 posts, RR: 10
Reply 132, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3201 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 116):
Until this kind of critical self-examination happens, the other six billion of us on this planet will continue to regard Islam with extreme suspicion, and Muslims living in Western nations will find their welcome mat increasingly wearing out. Patience is growing very, very thin in Europe, Australia and the US.

I think that is right on the mark. In the US we are in the process of re-evaluating several items that would result in significantly lower immigration and visitation from predominantly Islamic countries. Student visa policy and acceptance of political refugee are in the process of review and revision. I suspect that both of those will be reduced dramatically.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 111):
Didn't see the press conference but it wouldn't surprise if went something a long the lines of, "we don't agree with it, Islam is a peaceful religion, nothing to do with us, not our problem" which is what most of these things end up sounding like. Well I'm afraid it is their problem, these people are embedded in their community and use it to go undetected as they plot these horrendous crimes. It's about time these "community leaders" started tackling the problem instead of inadvertently shielding them through their inaction.

Whilst I believe the MCB are very sincere in what they say, and i'm sure they are shocked and appalled at what has happened.

How about some action. A real effort to out the hate preachers. Zero tolerance of violence carried out in the name of Islam.

Back up the words with action.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlinecorinthians From United States of America, joined May 2008, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3187 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 130):
Yeah but they are non white and not paranoid as you imagine, for you all its more a white west vs islam thing, for them there is nothing like that, yes there are issues but not like yours. They are in their own countries, societies, ethnicities, races, not as outsiders in a racially and culturally different west.

You are saying this is only a White vs Islam issue and that is not true. All most majorities of those countries (and probably many others) do have deep suspicions over Islam. Have you ever been to any of those countries? Ever spoke with the local populations there? Good luck finding a group of Muslims from the Western provinces in Shanghai or Beijing. They simply don't allow them there. And why would that be? Because they love them and aren't worried about them?

And what about Russia? Russia has been at war against one of their Muslim provinces for centuries. Russia is hardly considered a Western nation. That doesn't sound like a country without serious issues against Islam.

Thailand has been at war with the Muslim Southern provinces for decades, if not more. And the Philippines? Fighting a de-facto war in their Southern provinces.

Chinese population of Indonesia? How come so many of them fled?

Sounds like they have way bigger issues than we in the West do and are fighting against it a lot harder.

List could go on...


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 135, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3188 times:



Quoting corinthians (Reply 135):
You are saying this is only a White vs Islam issue and that is not true.

its very true, youre just trying to make yourself feel good the world is with you all its not like that, they are muslisms in their own communities and countries, its like a black sheep in a flock of white, not a wolf amongst sheep as you all see it.

Chinese community in Indonesia? how about putting it as minority Chinese in majority muslim but politically secular Indonesia.

[Edited 2013-05-23 12:26:45]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27231 posts, RR: 60
Reply 136, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3174 times:

Quoting corinthians (Reply 129):
Copts? Lebanese/Syrian Christians? They all have problems with Islamic terrorism and all view Islam with as much if not more suspicion than the West.

Well I guess when you live in Egypt / Syria / Iraq and Lebanon to name a few and certain Islamic groups are actively trying to wipe you out 24/7 you cant blame them. As recent as March in Lahore ,Pakistan 178 houses were set alight and 2 churches burned. The mob consisted of several thousand so its not small minorities taking part. No wonder they are suspicious.

Quoting 777way (Reply 130):
not paranoid as you imagine

Really not from my personal experience.

Today a number of Muslim groups have come out and condemned the attacks in London. Stronger language was seen than usual so either they truly are at a watershed or they fear not coming out with these statements. I guess actions will speak louder than words. They most certainly knew they had to do something to calm the tensions. They need to really ramp up the structures to ''out'' these types of extremists from within their communities. There is no more room for turning a blind eye.


As for the victim he has been named as Lee Rigby 25 years old from Manchester. He had a 2 year old Son.

RIP



User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 137, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 137):
Well I guess when you live in Egypt / Syria / Iraq and Lebanon to name a few and certain Islamic groups are actively trying to wipe you out 24/7 you cant blame them. As recent as March in Lahore ,Pakistan 178 houses were set alight and 2 churches burned. The mob consisted of several thousand so its not small minorities taking part. No wonder they are suspicious.

Still their own people, have you looked at what Punjabi Christians look like compared to muslims of the same background, not an iota of difference, the same people, same country, same culture, race, ethnicity, only a different religion, same applies to all countries listed.

If white western muslims were creating a mess in western socities it would be similar but nothing like a non white muslim immigrant doing the same in western countries.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 135):


And what about Russia? Russia has been at war against one of their Muslim provinces for centuries. Russia is hardly considered a Western nation. That doesn't sound like a country without serious issues against Islam.

Thailand has been at war with the Muslim Southern provinces for decades, if not more. And the Philippines? Fighting a de-facto war in their Southern provinces.

Chinese population of Indonesia? How come so many of them fled?

Sounds like they have way bigger issues than we in the West do and are fighting against it a lot harder.

List could go on...

Again nothing like west with non western immigrant muslims,, those are people in their own countries and societies, ieven if there is mistrust, comparing apples with oranges.

[Edited 2013-05-23 12:44:46]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13239 posts, RR: 77
Reply 138, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

House searches and arrests are continuing, including elsewhere in the UK. Whether any kind of cell is being rolled up or it's precautionary for questioning known associates, remains to be seen.

With all the stuff on this thread about aspects of Muslim's in the UK, elsewhere, worth remembering that a man was jailed for a long time, in 2007, for plotting to kidnap and behead, on video, a British Muslim soldier.

Last week, at ceremonies to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the RAF's Dambusters raid, along with preserved WW2 aircraft in the flypast, there were two Tornado GR.4's of today's 617 Squadron, one was piloted by a RAF officer named Mahmood Abdullah.


User currently onlineshamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6361 posts, RR: 14
Reply 139, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 131):
Sure sounds like a couple of idiots to me.

Unfortunately these idiots were able to brutally take the life of an innocent man in the middle of the day while praising Allah and preaching hate again Britain and its people. It was done with a clear message and that's terrorism, not just another London stabbing.


User currently offlinecorinthians From United States of America, joined May 2008, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 138):
Again nothing like west with non western immigrant muslims,, those are people in their own countries and societies, ieven if there is mistrust, comparing apples with oranges.
Quoting 777way (Reply 136):
ts very true, youre just trying to make yourself feel good the world is with you all its not like that, they are muslisms in their own communities and countries, its like a black sheep in a flock of white, not a wolf amongst sheep as you all see it.

You are either completely blind or delusional. If you choose not to see the facts and what really goes on in these other countries, well, that’s your prerogative then. Either that or you seem to have an issue with only Caucasians. Does that make you a racist?

Quoting 777way (Reply 136):
Chinese community in Indonesia? how about putting it as minority Chinese in majority muslim but politically secular Indonesia.

What are you saying? The Chinese have no reason to be in Muslim Indonesia? Indonesia is supposed to be a democracy, right? What are your thoughts of the anti-Chinese riots, then?


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5899 posts, RR: 4
Reply 141, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3086 times:

List could go on...[/quote]

Quoting corinthians (Reply 141):
You are either completely blind or delusional.

You are delusional, trying to equate issues of muslims in their own native cultures amongst their own non-muslim people, with muslim immigrants in western countries.

if you sister turns muslim and starts bothering you is it really the same to you as say if your African tenant turns muslim and starts harassing you?

Quoting corinthians (Reply 141):
What are you saying? The Chinese have no reason to be in Muslim Indonesia? Indonesia is supposed to be a democracy, right? What are your thoughts of the anti-Chinese riots, then?

They are basically Chinese Indonesians, atleast the Chinese community in Pakistan calls itself Pakistani Chinese., and they have every right to stay,, but they are not native to the country, unlike say native christian and hindu indnesianiaans.

You are trying to make it like kids when they gang up against someone and even try to make that other kids siblings and cousins or friends dislike him/her to show the ostracized one that everyone has issues with them.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1903 posts, RR: 10
Reply 142, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
just to clarify a point. The first post by this member set the tone, in my belief, in a context of 'us vs. them':

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
come on west have some courage

Hmm...well he's correct to a point (whatever the context). The way it sounds from this story and others, the UK has a real problem making controversial decisions.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
I took 'west' to mean the western hemisphere or western nations, not short for Westy.

Well the way the convo went, he might have meant both  
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 123):
I think this murder is being blown all out of proportion to what it really was, two idiots stabbing a guy to death on the side of a road. I don't think that fact that these twits were muslim means anything, it's more of a hate crime than anything else.

Surely you understand the difference between "two Muslim idiots stabbing a guy to death" and "two Muslim idiots stabbing a guy to death with a political motivation"?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 123):
Turning it into a media circus doesn't make sense to me

Never really does. It rarely helps.

Quoting 777way (Reply 128):
non whites don't really care, so make that a fraction, yes theres trouble off and on in some non white countries

Why are you calling out white people? This is not a race issue. Also keeping in mind that there are scores of white Muslims. I happen to know a handful.

Quoting 777way (Reply 130):
Yeah but they are non white and not paranoid as you imagine

Tell that to the Christians in Nigeria...



Flying refined.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 143, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 139):
Last week, at ceremonies to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the RAF's Dambusters raid, along with preserved WW2 aircraft in the flypast, there were two Tornado GR.4's of today's 617 Squadron, one was piloted by a RAF officer named Mahmood Abdullah.

Yup. A while ago I met a Bundeswehr sergeant with the name Özbakir. Guess what his religion was. A colleague of mine hails from Aserbeijan. He is a Muslim. But he has no kind words for the Salafist and Wahabi extremists in neighbouring Chechnia. He supports the Russian hardline politics there.
Within the British military there exists the AFMA, the Armed Forces Muslim Association
http://www.afma.org.uk/
There have been Muslim soldiers in the British forces since several hundred years (mainly though their former colonies).
Guess who´se side they´ll be on? Hint: It won´t be the religious fanatics.

Jan


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 144, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 142):
indnesianiaans.

The who now??



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 145, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2911 times:

Pretty good summary of the current situation here:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...lwich-attack-soldier-lee-rigby-mi5

A couple of points rather caught my eye:-

"The suspects, shot by police shortly after the incident, remain in separate but unidentified hospitals, too badly injured to be questioned.

-----------------

"Police tried to rebut claims of a delayed response saying they were first called to reports of a man being attacked in the street at 14.20. Four minutes later they were told by witnesses that one attacker had a gun, at which point, 14.24, officers in an armed response vehicle which patrols London's streets, were ordered to the scene.

"Five minutes later, at 14.29, the first unarmed officers arrived at the scene, and at 14.34 armed officers arrived and two of them opened fire, and a Taser was also fired."


Looks like the police didn't mess around once they arrived. And the point about the 'suspects' being too badly injured to be questioned strongly suggests that the police shot both of them through the body, didn't try to 'disable' them or anything. Good for them.............

And this bit very much implies that the 'talker' may well have been 'schooled' by radical Muslims:-

"His family were churchgoing Christians of Nigerian heritage but he converted to Islam about 10 years ago and investigators are trying to establish how he became radicalised to the point that he may have committed violence."

[Edited 2013-05-23 18:45:43]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7965 posts, RR: 51
Reply 146, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 146):
And the point about the 'suspects' being too badly injured to be questioned strongly suggests that the police shot both of them through the body, didn't try to 'disable' them or anything

Probably beside the point you are trying to make, but every police department I've ever seen teaches more or less the same thing when it comes to firearms. It always enrages me to see people trashing police officers for not "just shooting them in the arm or leg" or something. There is a reason they aim for center mass--it is the easiest to hit (and don't forget, not hitting may equal collateral damage and aiming with a handgun is not like the movies) and when a cop actually shoots a gun, the situation warrants possibly deadly force... guns are never used in situations where you killing the suspect is completely unacceptable. In other words, the situation should be to the point where if the suspect dies, it's the fault of the attacker only, I'm sure the officers, when shooting, hope their bullets stop and don't kill, but the point isn't to just knock a knife out of their hands.

I hope these guys see justice. I'm not in the torture them or execute them publicly crowd, I'm just against that kind of behavior despite their grizzly actions



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineSFBDude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

http://www.itv.com/news/2013-05-23/m...rmined-to-stay-united-in-woolwich/
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-...s-condemn-evil-attack-in-woolwich/


Since were bringing religion into this, this page is pretty much a one stop shop for info. No sense in debating it here.

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ex-useful-threads.html#post1542964



This is a genuine Islamic forum with mixed members. None of that 'how to answer Islam' bs.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 148, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 147):
Probably beside the point you are trying to make

Not at all, DeltaMD90 - in fact I was taught exactly the same in the army, about half a century ago........  

Story also confirms two further arrests:-

"Detectives investigating Rigby's death also arrested a 29-year-old man and woman on suspicion of conspiracy to murder the soldier, suggesting there may have been a wider conspiracy to carry out the attack. The 29-year-old woman was arrested at a flat in Greenwich, south-east London."

Quoting SFBDude (Reply 148):
Since were bringing religion into this

With respect, SFBDude, surely religion has been 'in it' from the start? I thought that it was of interest that the guy was brought up as a Christian and only converted about ten years ago? And the story also records that he was 'tutored' by a known extremist?

"The extremist cleric Omar Bakri Mohammad, who has been expelled from Britain, told the Guardian he had tutored Adebolajo in Islam after he converted to the religion in 2003. He was the former leader of al-Muhajiroun, an organisation banned for professing extremist views. Mohammad described Adebolajo as a shy man who had been angered by the Iraq invasion, and who would ask questions about when violence was justified."

Please don't think that I'm condemning the whole Muslim religion. But it's becoming increasingly clear that there do appear to be extremist groups in Britain (and no doubt other places) who are actually recruiting and 'pre-programming' youngsters to conspire and commit these crimes?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25522 posts, RR: 86
Reply 149, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2864 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm cheering the women.

The woman who asked to be allowed to comfort or protect the dead or dying man and two women who stood by her.

The woman who engaged one of the killers to keep him there till the cops came and the policewoman who brought down the killers.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2671 posts, RR: 5
Reply 150, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2828 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 118):
In the video, which I'm sure everyone has seen by now, the one guy with the knives talks about women in his "land" having to see murders like that all the time, possibly alluding to the UK's involvement in Afghanistan and/or Iraq, which further confuses things for me because he is Nigerian, and I can't recall the UK having any involvement in the Boko Haram conflict.

If reports are correct, he isn't Nigerian, he is a British citizen and therefore British. "His land" is the United Kingdom.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 118):

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 112):More repulsive than the murder itself?
Yes.

I beg to differ.

I'm not talking about murders generally, I'm talking about this specific incidence of murder. Hacking someone to death in the manner that he did is particularly heinous. There's an old saying, that the "punishment must fit the crime". Acts of barbarism calls for barbaric sentences.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 123):
I think this murder is being blown all out of proportion to what it really was, two idiots stabbing a guy to death on the side of a road.

No, it's two idiots with a radical agenda in the name of a religion which they claim to practice, hacking a British soldier to death with a machete and a meat cleaver.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 123):
Had they gone on a machete massacre Ugandian style then I think the attention would be warranted.

The only difference here is the number of victims. Thankfully there aren't more.

Quoting GDB (Reply 124):
Though one of them might yet expire from wounds.

Good.

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 126):
Stabbings happen regularly in London, many of them have been fatal but what makes this different is the way it was carried out and message that was attached to it.

  

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 127):
Actually, being British citizens (or British Subjects), can´t they be tried under the treason laws and helping an enemy during wartime?

That would be harder to prove than murder. To the best of my knowledge, Britain has not formally declared war on another nation, so proving that it is "wartime" is difficult in and of itself, let alone finding evidence that they were involved in aiding the enemy.

But if the evidence is there, I'd say they should definitely be tried for treason.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 151, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2824 times:

Quoting corinthians (Reply 135):
Good luck finding a group of Muslims from the Western provinces in Shanghai or Beijing. They simply don't allow them there. And why would that be? Because they love them and aren't worried about them?

And what about Russia? Russia has been at war against one of their Muslim provinces for centuries. Russia is hardly considered a Western nation. That doesn't sound like a country without serious issues against Islam.

Thailand has been at war with the Muslim Southern provinces for decades, if not more. And the Philippines? Fighting a de-facto war in their Southern provinces.

Are these countries mentioned 'courageous' in their dealings with the extremists amongst these rebels as suggested the 'west' should be earlier in the thread? How's that working for them if they are.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1903 posts, RR: 10
Reply 152, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 151):
If reports are correct, he isn't Nigerian, he is a British citizen and therefore British. "His land" is the United Kingdom.

The reports say he is of Nigerian descent, a country which is currently locked in a conflict with Muslim extremists. That's a connection one can't ignore.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 151):
I beg to differ.

I'm not talking about murders generally, I'm talking about this specific incidence of murder. Hacking someone to death in the manner that he did is particularly heinous. There's an old saying, that the "punishment must fit the crime". Acts of barbarism calls for barbaric sentences.

"Acts of barbarism calls for barbaric sentences" = "We're no better than they are"

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 152):
Are these countries mentioned 'courageous' in their dealings with the extremists amongst these rebels as suggested the 'west' should be earlier in the thread? How's that working for them if they are.

It's a different scenario. The countries corinthians mentioned are battling separatist states, versus countries in the west that are battling with extremists immigrating there without being caught.

(not rebutting, just easier to quote you)



Flying refined.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 153, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days ago) and read 2821 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 153):
It's a different scenario.

In my view, an extremist is an extremist, and the way one deals with extremists shouldn't vary due to their country of birth, except when issues such as treason arise, as there's a citizenship test for treason to be applicable.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1817 posts, RR: 4
Reply 154, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2710 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 22):
Indeed the British government should have brought in emergency anti terror laws to over ride the EU, no wonder people are voting for UKIP ! Which is very dangerous and I dont agree with. Maybe this will change things but I doubt it.

What makes you think that EU's anti-terror or immigration laws are easier than the British ones? If anything, it is the opposite. The UK, particularly under Labour, had the most liberal immigration and anti-terror laws in the World. The EU's laws have always been stricter.

Having been an immigrant in at least three EU nations, I can vouch for this as a fact.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5723 posts, RR: 44
Reply 155, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2624 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting mariner (Reply 149):
I'm cheering the women.

The woman who asked to be allowed to comfort or protect the dead or dying man and two women who stood by her.

The woman who engaged one of the killers to keep him there till the cops came and the policewoman who brought down the killers.

I agree, the true heros of the day, disregarded their own safety to comfort Lee Rigby as he lay dying, engaged and talked down a violent and armed man.

I hope someone is nominating these ladies for the highest of bravery awards!! I wish I could be as sure of being as brave as they were in similar circumstances.

Ingrid Loyau-Kennett when the assailant told her they were intending to start a war.. her reply ".... you are going to lose, what would you like to do?' should resound loudly with these fanatic criminals



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1883 posts, RR: 1
Reply 156, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 152):
The reports say he is of Nigerian descent, a country which is currently locked in a conflict with Muslim extremists. That's a connection one can't ignore.

You may have missed this bit:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 145):
"His family were churchgoing Christians of Nigerian heritage but he converted to Islam about 10 years ago and investigators are trying to establish how he became radicalised to the point that he may have committed violence."


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 157, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

As it appears to be a prerequisite for some, allow me to preface my comments with a condemnation of this appalling act of violence. Whatever views one may have of the rights or wrongs of the oddly-named war on terror, this savage act can not be justified in any way. Not only do two wrongs not make a right but the act itself is counter-productive to the alleged goal.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 67):
Religion is a personal relationship, not a penal code.

But there is a fatal flaw. Religion has seldom been a personal relationship but has been a societal expression of values and codes of behaviour. While in the US there is an apparent separation between religion and the state that is not the case in many other countries, nor has it been historically. Many countries have an official religion specified in their constitutions or specify that the head of state must be of a specific religion. This is not limited to "backward, barbaric Muslim countries", as is commonly believed in the West but also occurs in such democracies as the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Norway and so on. Individuals may be free to pursue whatever religion they like, but the state prescribes an official religion in each case.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 153):
an extremist is an extremist

Define extremist. Some people would regard the invasion of another country as an extreme act and that those who support such an act are by definition extremists. Or does the fact that an act is an action by a state somehow change the quality of an act? An individual does something and it is terrorism: a state does the same and it is no longer so?

In these forums many have argued that there is a distinction between terrorism and state sanctioned violence, arguing that terrorism targets civilians, despite civilians often being the victims of state-sanctioned acts of violence.. Yet in this instance a soldier who had been active in Afghanistan was the intended target. Does this mean that the act was no longer terrorism or that the espoused definition is wrong?

This was a horrific act and I feel compassion for the family of the victim. I can understand the anger and disgust that most sensible people feel as I feel it myself. But I do wonder why you have chosen to pick on the only identifiable Muslim to criticise in your post.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 80):
BTW I'm still waiting for major Muslim community leaders in the UK to come on TV and speak at their outrage of these attacks ??

I note your subsequent post and I know that you write with a sense of exasperation but on the 22nd May it was reported on the BBC website that the Muslim Council and the Islamic Council had issued condemnations of the attacks, albeit the reference was buried deep within a report of statements by more prominent people and many might not scroll down that far

In the past there have been many similar condemnations and various fatwas have been issued by senior clerics. By and large these condemnations have been ignored in the Western media. You will need to ask the proprietors of those media outlets why they have either chosen to ignore or give little prominence to those statements.

Either way, it is clear from the responses of others that it really doesn't matter what Muslims do or say, it will be ignored, discounted or not taken seriously because a different standard is applied. If a soldier goes berserk in Afghanistan, no-one expects every citizen of the soldier's country condemn it but if someone claiming to be Muslim carries out a barbaric act everyone insists that every Muslim must condemn it. Why the double standard?

In summation, I hope that all those involved in this barbaric act are brought to justice. I also sympathise with the police who have been drafted in to protect Muslim communities and mosques from the organised violence of groups like the EDL that has been reported in the media.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20782 posts, RR: 62
Reply 158, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2541 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 157):
But I do wonder why you have chosen to pick on the only identifiable Muslim to criticise in your post.

Since you're now the second person to bring this point up, let's clarify it. If there had been others repeatedly critical in their perception of the west being soft on criminal acts such as this in an equal manner, and endorsing public acts of justice killing, their posts would have been equally quoted. If anything, my posting history here of nearly ten years in tenure gives evidence that I ask for clarity or take ideas to task on a purely equal opportunity basis.

If one puts forth an idea, one should expect to be able to support it, not run away from it, nor call questioning it unfair.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 157):
Individuals may be free to pursue whatever religion they like, but the state prescribes an official religion in each case.

You're correct, which is why conflating 'the west' as one is rarely an effective starting point for an argument when one attempts to relate it to law and religion. 'The west' is not a one-size-fits-all proposition.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 157):
Define extremist.

In this case the word 'extremist' was used to describe outliers who've perverted an idea or ideals for their own selfish purposes, with no known good to society.

Welcome to airliners.net!



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 159, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2499 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 158):
Since you're now the second person to bring this point up, let's clarify it. If there had been others repeatedly critical in their perception of the west being soft on criminal acts such as this in an equal manner, and endorsing public acts of justice killing, their posts would have been equally quoted. If anything, my posting history here of nearly ten years in tenure gives evidence that I ask for clarity or take ideas to task on a purely equal opportunity basis.

Untrue and you know it, you attacked me on few things, including showing no sympathy to the victim and his family, while tens of others including yourself did not express such sympathy. I asked for tough laws from western countries and not the usual slap on the hand and years of legal actions, it was very clear that i am in favor of special laws to fight acts of terrorism, don't see where it was not clear, maybe i was so upset and requested a public sentence but after a while i backed away from it

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 81):
Ok i could agree about public hanging, sensitivity etc... How about a new law concerning acts of terrorism where if a person is found guilty he will face a death sentence?

Still i do enjoy a discussion, but also i show respect to others by responding to private messages



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3513 posts, RR: 17
Reply 160, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2488 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 157):

I would like to join AeroWesty in welcoming you to Anet



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam