Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Nicaragua To Build Their Own "Panama Canal"  
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6093 posts, RR: 31
Posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2806 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

http://internacional.elpais.com/inte.../actualidad/1369513091_162199.html

It will be build by a chinese firm Xinwei Telecom Enterprise Group and the idea apparently is serious enough that President Ortega has mentioned it to President Obama and asked him for help in finding American investors to participate. They´ve opened already an office in Hong Kong: "HK Nicaragua Canal Development Investment Co. Ltd".

The canal will have a length of 280 km, will be able to receive ships of of 250,000 tons, locks of 460 mts. and a depth of 20 mts. The whole thigin s proyected to cost $40 billion USD

I don´t know if this will happen. Latin Amercia has a notorious history of announcing these types of mega-proyects to distract the population from the more teething and daily problems. However, if true, at a cost of of 40 billion USD, it will certainly lift this God-forgotten country out of its current (and apparently eternal) poverty.

I really hope it happens and good luck to them.

Edit: I apologize for using "Panama Canal" in the title but I thought it would be a good reference for people to understand what type of canal we are talking about. The intention is not to sound sarcastic or derogatory towards Nicaragua.

[Edited 2013-05-26 14:40:03]


MGGS
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3866 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2736 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
I don´t know if this will happen

It's not the first time this idea has been proposed--I believe the original site that the U.S. looked at for building a canal in Central America (before the Panama Canal was built) was in Nicaragua.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2964 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2731 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
The canal will have a length of 280 km

173 miles which is roughly 3.5 times the distance of the Panama Canal.
I suppose it is doable, just would question the $40B cost. That would seem low to me but not sure of existing rivers/waterways or the abilities to establish lakes and run-off to fill the lakes for operation of the canal.

The only way that it would be even cost productive would be to build it to handle the massive ocean going container ships that transport containers now.

I know they are in the process of enlarging the locks and depth of the Panama right now but I believe the Panama still will not be able to handle the largest container and tankers.

Okie


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

40 billions is 1,5 times the GDP of the country...


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15695 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
It will be build by a chinese firm Xinwei Telecom Enterprise Group

That makes me think this has less to do with Nicaragua than China. Like building an operating an aircraft carrier, building and controlling a shipping lane comparable to the Panama Canal would be a huge symbolic, if not actual, sign of China's legitimacy as a superpower. The Panama Canal was one of the five keys to the British Empire (along with the Suez Canal, Straits of Gibraltar, Straits of Malacca, and Straits of Dover) so China having something similar would be feather in their cap.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
That makes me think this has less to do with Nicaragua than China.

That is what I'm thinking. China seems to be engaging in some incredible 'empire building' at the moment through infrastructure projects throughout the developing world (and lets face it, the developed world too).

This is a win win for China. They create another route for Chinese goods to the East coast, West Europe along with the booming West coast of Africa. I'm assuming they will make the canal able to accomodate the largest ships in the world otherwise there is no point. Not only that they will have a quick way to move Navy ships into the Atlantic to defend their interests in West Africa and allow them to play a greater role in geopolitics throughout the Carribean.

They have more foreign reserves than they know what to do with, so for the relatively small price of $40 billion they get all of the above and they also get at least one small country in their back pocket for a long time to come.


The President asking to Obama for investment looks to me like the government is a little scared of becoming too indebted to China, if they can get enough funding to cap China's investment and just let them build it, they will be much better off.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
The Panama Canal was one of the five keys to the British Empire (along with the Suez Canal, Straits of Gibraltar, Straits of Malacca, and Straits of Dover) so China having something similar would be feather in their cap.

The Panama Canal had nothing to do with the British Empire. The US built it and controlled it until 1999.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2964 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
40 billions is 1,5 times the GDP of the country...

$40B is less than half of the $85B per month that the US is printing for Wall St.

No wonder Ortega is looking to Obama for the monies.

I would still doubt the $40B figure for a 173 mile canal with infrastructure, locks, and equipment. Just the upgrades on the Panama was $5.25B in 2006 dollars.

Okie


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1399 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2618 times:

Would be cool if this opened but i can't see how it'd ever really be competitive vs Panama. Smells of vanity project, still if China wants to throw money at other parts of the world that's great.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
The Panama Canal was one of the five keys to the British Empire (along with the Suez Canal, Straits of Gibraltar, Straits of Malacca, and Straits of Dover)

Nearly, - Panama Canal + Cape of Good Hope.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15695 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 6):
The Panama Canal had nothing to do with the British Empire. The US built it and controlled it until 1999.

It was part of the special relationship between the US and British. They ceded control of the Panama Canal to the US because of the Monroe Doctrine and the US could be trusted.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 9):
Nearly, - Panama Canal + Cape of Good Hope.

I've seen a couple different lists, but I think all of them include the Panama Canal but some do make mention of the Cape of Good Hope as an additional key.


China needs to be mindful of the course Japan ended up on and seriously ask themselves if this is really a good investment or if they just want all the cool stuff America has.

Maybe the newly minted middle and upper class Chinese are just discovering the joys of cocaine.   

[Edited 2013-05-26 23:00:38 by SA7700]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

Hopefully less people die building this one. Reportedly over 27,000 people died from disease and accidents building the Panama Canal.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6093 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2513 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Ozair (Reply 16):
Hopefully less people die building this one. Reportedly over 27,000 people died from disease and accidents building the Panama Canal.

I get you. But, It´s Nicaragua who is going to supply the labor and the Chinese the capital, so I don´t think that concern is high on anybody´s mind.



MGGS
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1129 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2510 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 13):
Quoting Polot (Reply 14):

    Wow! I've clearly been awake too long. However, Nicaragua is one of the countries that has relations with the ROC rather than the PRC.



Someone repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12395 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2389 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
That makes me think this has less to do with Nicaragua than China. Like building an operating an aircraft carrier, building and controlling a shipping lane comparable to the Panama Canal would be a huge symbolic, if not actual, sign of China's legitimacy as a superpower

I agree with this; America has been concerned for some time about China buying into the Panama Canal; do Chinese vessels use the Panama Canal?

Quoting zkojq (Reply 12):
I've clearly been awake too long. However, Nicaragua is one of the countries that has relations with the ROC rather than the PRC.

Well, it's an incentive to review that position!

Presumably there will need to be a lake or other large area to allow ships to turn or drop anchor, or will there be enough room for ships to pass each other? (Would that be a contra flow?  )


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3866 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
China needs to be mindful of the course Japan ended up on and seriously ask themselves if this is really a good investment or if they just want all the cool stuff America has.

The Chinese development model is entirely different from Japan, and when the Japanese invested it was only for financial purposes. If Xinwei is a Chinese SOE, then I'm willing to bet security considerations are motivating the investment as much as ROI--it's an alternative to the Panama Canal, and one that the PRC would likely have more of a say in terms of security considerations and transit permission.

The PRC has already demonstrated that they are willing to invest substantial sums for the sake of the country's national security (which includes energy/resource security)--look at what they have been up to in Africa--and have a long-time interest in a canal across the Thai isthmus as an alternative to to the Strait of Malacca.


User currently offlinevc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1405 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2358 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
The Panama Canal was one of the five keys to the British Empire (along with the Suez Canal, Straits of Gibraltar, Straits of Malacca, and Straits of Dover) so China having something similar would be feather in their cap.

I think you probably was thinking of the Suez canal which was the gate way to India


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 13):
Presumably there will need to be a lake or other large area to allow ships to turn or drop anchor, or will there be enough room for ships to pass each other?

Nicaragua does appear to have a big lake in quite a convenient place, kaitak. With several rivers to the east of it, suggesting that the land there is pretty flat and low-lying.

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/maps/central-america/nicaragua/

So, on the face of it the project does look to be pretty 'feasible'?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 6):
The Panama Canal had nothing to do with the British Empire. The US built it and controlled it until 1999.

Well a canal was first thought by the Spanish as soon as the 16th century. For the US it was the early 19th century and yes it has to do with Britain since relations between the two weren't great, Britain controlled Columbia (Panama was part of that country) so they wanted to do one there and the US controlled Nicaragua so they wanted to do it there.

Ultimately the ones who committed to it were the French though, a private enterprise that cost many their fortunes, since the plan was for a sea level canal, ending up being too difficult to do at the time (and killing 22000 people in the process). Then years later the US bought the partially built canal (and the country of Panama) and finished it with a less ambitious design.

If this ends up as a Chinese canal then I think Nicaragua will not benefit at all from it, China will send its own people to built it and operate it.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1399 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2303 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
Britain controlled Columbia (Panama was part of that country) so they wanted to do one there and the US controlled Nicaragua so they wanted to do it there.

Britain never controlled Columbia nor Panama (Maybe you mean British Columbia in Canada).

Britain had little in Latin America apart from Honduras, Guyana and the Caribbean, hence why the Panama canal was of little strategic importance to them.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
It was part of the special relationship between the US and British. They ceded control of the Panama Canal to the US because of the Monroe Doctrine and the US could be trusted.

What are you talking about? The British NEVER had control of the canal in the first place. You are aware that the Panama Canal was built in the early 20th century, almost 100 years after the Monroe Doctrine? Again, the British never had control of the canal or the land it was built on.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):

I never said the US was the first one to come up with the idea, or even the first one to try- but they were the ones to actually finish and control it, not the British Empire.

Anyways your facts are off- Britain never controlled Colombia, and the US never "bought" the country of Panama, although they heavily supported the existing Panama separatist movement ensuring they won in their fight against Colombia and getting a very favorable treaty out of it.

[Edited 2013-05-27 07:08:47]

[Edited 2013-05-27 07:09:29]

User currently offlineVinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
I get you. But, It´s Nicaragua who is going to supply the labor and the Chinese the capital, so I don´t think that concern is high on anybody´s mind.

That's not usually how China work: They supply their own labor with little help from the locals!


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 18):
Britain never controlled Columbia nor Panama (Maybe you mean British Columbia in Canada).

Sorry, I read wikipedia at 5am, some of the facts have collided in my brain. The US serious project about the canal was in the early 19th century and a way to assert US power against Britain, that I remember well, it just didn't go anywhere after a vote.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9089 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2225 times:

The Chinese might do it but they will rather stick with improving the infrastructure within China. That is going at great pace.
Additionally, why should China build that Canal while other SE Asian countries are exporting to the US as well and would possibly benefit from that infrastructure?

That is why Ortega, ruler of an impoversihed communist country knocks at the door of Uncle Sam to ask for money. Furthermore. is doubtful that US$ 40 billion will do the trick, looking what other infrastructure projects cost.

Meanwhile, the industry is developing other routes between North America, Europe and China, such as by vessel to Narvik in Norway, by rail via Sweden, Finland and russia using various routes and destinations. Trans-Sib rail container traffic already offers 16 days transit from Chinese inland to Duisburg in Germany. In times of slow steaming to conserve fuel, that is quick, although at a premium..


US rail is highly developed, with less coal to be transpoirted there will be free slots available, container trains of 3,5 miles lenbht are possible and daily practise. .

I would ot invest money into that project.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15695 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 2213 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
What are you talking about? The British NEVER had control of the canal in the first place. You are aware that the Panama Canal was built in the early 20th century, almost 100 years after the Monroe Doctrine? Again, the British never had control of the canal or the land it was built on.

Never actual control, but it was a pretty basic understanding: during the days of the British Empire, the US would take care of the Panama Canal. Remember that at the time it was built the US was not a superpower and the combination of the Spanish American War and the Panama Canal is what sent us down the path that ended with becoming a superpower at the end of WWII.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7032 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):

It was part of the special relationship between the US and British. They ceded control of the Panama Canal to the US because of the Monroe Doctrine and the US could be trusted.

It was the French who started building the canal, they sold all the construction equipment and design to the US in 1904. Nothing to do with the British.


25 rwy04lga : Already addressed ColOmbia! Gracias
26 BMI727 : Let me explain this, it really isn't that complicated. In the early 20th century, the British Empire needed to maintain control of several key shippi
27 cptkrell : Actually, the canal idea dates back to the 16th century with Spain drawing up some plans in 1529 or thereabouts. Nicaragua was originally one of the t
28 Dreadnought : Oh, anything is "feasible". But the canal they are talking about will require a 50-mile - minimum - of very large artificial waterway on the east sid
29 doug_Or : Indeed, and Nicaragua was the a route of transit from the US East Coast to the West Coast before the construction of the railroads. Passengers would
30 PanHAM : Nicaragua has a GNP of approximately 7,3 billion US$. A completed canal would add to that, however the capital costs would have to be served and the g
31 kiwirob : No it wasn't, India was the Jewel in the Imperial Crown, the fastest and easiest acess to that jewel was via the Suez Canal, the Panama Canal had no
32 PanHAM : The north passage is about as realistic as a canal competing with an already existing canal. Ship/rail routings via Scandinavia and Russia are a pote
33 kiwirob : Having a duplicate canal is going to be cheaper, safer and quicker. Until global warming does it's bit the Northern Passage isn't an all year round p
34 PanHAM : 30 trains with 120 well cars. Considering that not all 14000 TEU are off loaded at one single port, that there are local consignees and that there is
35 kiwirob : Most of it is, full ships go to Long Beach offload and return relatively empty to China to repeat the process. The E class ships and others of simila
36 Post contains links BMI727 : I never thought it would be so difficult for people to understand how the Panama Canal would benefit the nation that at the time was the world's bigg
37 cjg225 : Even more to the point, how many ships are actually carrying their entire capacity? Very few, in the current maritime economy. The land bridge idea b
38 Post contains images PanHAM : it works already with regular trains from central CXhina to Duisburg in Germany. It is hapüpening already, The iron ore line from lulea to narvik wi
39 rampart : I remember a textbook from the 1950s that discussed, among many peaceful uses of nuclear bombs, a plan to excavate a canal through Nicaragua with a ch
40 Post contains links and images kiwirob : It's trashed at the moment, there hasn't been rail traffic between Northern and Southern Norway for about a week now. I very much doubt any track in
41 PanHAM : The 27 hr rail connection I am talking about is via Sweden, Narvik-Kiruna-Storvik-.Hallsberg-Oslo Alnabru. Thze rail line from narvik to Kiruna is abo
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The Pope Asks Priests To Have Their Own Blogs posted Tue Jan 26 2010 13:30:34 by MadameConcorde
Does Amtrak Have Plans To Replace Their Genesis Locos? posted Sat May 15 2010 14:47:32 by 747400sp
Israel To Build NIS 1.5b Fence Along Egypt Border posted Sun Jan 10 2010 22:43:14 by Mortyman
Iran Planning To Build 10 Nuclear Facilities posted Sun Nov 29 2009 15:14:19 by FuturePilot16
Conservatives:: Time For Their Own Party? posted Tue Nov 3 2009 00:47:56 by Ken777
What If Iran Were To Sell Their Nuclear Weapons? posted Wed Sep 30 2009 10:16:09 by Slider
Nickelodeon To Build Theme Park In New Orleans posted Tue Aug 18 2009 10:59:51 by MSYtristar
Mexico To Build Wall To Keep US Citizens Out posted Wed Jul 8 2009 20:55:44 by Marcus
Am General/Hummer To Build Next-Gen Taxicabs posted Fri Mar 6 2009 16:14:10 by StasisLAX
Israel To Build A Jewish "Museum Of Tolerance" posted Fri Nov 7 2008 19:30:13 by Bravo45