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Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?  
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7411 times:

The US has charged Snowden with theft of government property, unauthorised communication of national defence information and wilful communication of classified communications intelligence to an unauthorised person. The latter two alleged offences are part of the US Espionage Act.

As far as we know Snowden is holed up in a hotel in Hong Kong. While there is an extradition treaty between Hong Kong and the US, how likely is it that Snowden will be extradited to face trial?

As far as I understand it, Hong Kong law does not allow for an immediate arrest and handover but requires an equivalent crime under Hong Kong laws to be levied before any decision can be made. So, for example, a charge of theft could readily find an equivalence in Hong Kong, the extradition treaty between the US and the latter does not mention unauthorised communication or wilful communication of classified communications.

It might be argued in court that "theft of state secrets" might find an equivalence in a general charge of "theft", the other two offences do not and would be open to challenge.

Under Hong Kong's extradition system, a request first goes through diplomatic channels to the government, who decides whether to issue an "authority to proceed". If granted, a magistrate issues a formal warrant for the arrest of Snowden. Snowden could still apply for political asylum in Hong Kong, arguing he would face torture back home. Article six of the treaty states extradition should be refused for "an offence of a political character".

Even if a magistrate were prepared to hear a case for extradition and decide to grant it, the decision could still be vetoed by the Chinese government. Whether they would decide to accede to a request or deny it might be subject to other political considerations.

Could Snowden become another Assange? A person that nobody really wants but is not prepared to give up for other reasons?

251 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7412 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Thread starter):
how likely is it that Snowden will be extradited to face trial?

Little. His worst case scenario, unless he really screws things up for himself, will be to end up somewhat like how Guy Burgess did.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7398 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
will be to end up somewhat like how Guy Burgess did.

That is a depressing future and I wonder how far Snowden considered it.

A further question, while there are obvious differences between the interests of China and the US, there has also been closer co-operation in a number of fields. We see US companies allowing production under licence of various commodities and while US debt to China is not the greatest proportion of total debt, China has no real interest in seeing the US economy go down the "plug hole". Is there any room for accommodation and, if so, what might the price be? Speculative, I realise, but interesting to discuss in terms of future relations between two very important powers.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7391 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 2):
We see US companies allowing production under licence of various commodities and while US debt to China is not the greatest proportion of total debt, China has no real interest in seeing the US economy go down the "plug hole". Is there any room for accommodation and, if so, what might the price be? Speculative, I realise, but interesting to discuss in terms of future relations between two very important powers.

What?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7377 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
What?

How far do you, or others think that economic and political factors may influence the outcome?

We know that the US and China do not see eye to eye on every issue but that does not mean that they do not or can not work together when it suits their mutual interests.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7372 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 4):
How far do you, or others think that economic and political factors may influence the outcome?

Very, very little unless the U.S. captures someone of equal importance to the Chinese to use as a trade. The Chinese then might be interested in arresting Snowden in order to exchange him, but I'll bet any deal he would make with them would include an agreement not to be treated as a pawn. There are plenty of others.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7368 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
There are plenty of others.

It is true that the Chinese have extradited a number of people to the US in the past. That certainly gives them a means of encouraging Snowden to reveal as much as he knows or face possible extradition. It may come down to how much the Chinese already knew/suspected and how much new information they think he may possess.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7328 times:

Depends on where he's hiding. He may have left Hong Kong for another location, although as I understand it, he won't go to Iceland until he's guaranteed asylum. Once there, he definantly won't be extradited, and the lovely folks at WikiLeaks have already spent some of their donations on hiring a private jet for him, so he's probably just waiting for the call.

But then again, he's supposedly a hardcore libertarian and Hong Kong does rank highly on various Freedom indexes.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 4):
How far do you, or others think that economic and political factors may influence the outcome?

Not very far, given that the legal system in Hong Kong is separate from that of R.O.C. And as I understand it, there's two circumstances that have to be met before he can be extradited: One is that there has to be an equal crime under Hong Kong law, and the other - and that's the tricky one - is that the charges are not political in nature. Any lawyer he retains to fight his extradiction will have a field day with that one.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8773 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7313 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 7):
One is that there has to be an equal crime under Hong Kong law, and the other - and that's the tricky one - is that the charges are not political in nature. Any lawyer he retains to fight his extradiction will have a field day with that one.

Ironically, the USA probably insisted on the "political in nature" clause so China could not demand extradition of dissidents back from the USA! Now it bites us.

Given that he revealed crimes, and total contempt for the law from his superiors, I don't see how he could be legally expected to ask THEIR permission. That's what whistleblowing is all about. You don't obey your manager, because he/she is doing something wrong, something that offends either the public or the law. Here, it was certainly both. Snowden could either (a) unlawfully participate with his employer or (b) break the law to blow the whistle. He had no innocent option -- you can't just leave after you witness a crime.

Guys like him realize "if I don't stand up, who will?" He calculated correctly AFAIK. If he didn't take those steps, we'd be waiting until another guy like him did so.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7301 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 7):
the legal system in Hong Kong is separate from that of R.O.C.

This is where the laws overlap, I understand it correctly. The laws of Hong Kong are recognised as being separate to those of China but only so far. In some areas there is a conflict and the laws of China prevail. So, in this instance, a magistrate in China may approve an extradition or rule that there is no legal impediment but the Chinese Government may still block such a move. This may be in line with countries in the EU , for example, that allow courts to rule on the legality of permitting extradition but can not force a government to proceed with one, allowing the responsible minister to make the final decision. The ruling may be whether an extradition is allowable rather than whether it be enforced.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
You don't obey your manager, because he/she is doing something wrong, something that offends either the public or the law. Here, it was certainly both.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
That's what whistleblowing is all about.

This will always be a grey area. It puts the beliefs and conscience of an individual against those of the state. In some states there is protection, not so much from prosecution but a provision in law of a defence. Some might like to rely on trust to believe that the courts would uphold that defence. Others may be less certain.

It does pose a problem for those who witness what they believe to be unlawful or illegal acts yet be worried about the consequences of revealing those acts. It does not require any paranoia to realise that if you fail to convince a court you could spend a long time in bed at breakfast at the tax payers' expense.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7297 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Given that he revealed crimes, and total contempt for the law from his superiors,

That's actually not exactly true as far as I'm aware, and that is his biggest problem.

His superiors didn't violate the law – these spying programs are properly covered by the letter of decisions made by the respective legislative chambers in accordance with the respective governments, meaning they are practically laws. Strictly formally, these odious programs are likely on safe ground.

Snowden made a more difficult judgment call: He decided to blow the whistle about his superiors blatantly violating the spirit of the US constitution and of universal human rights.

Short of the US Supreme Court there may be no court even capable of finding his actions justifiable, and even that would be a far cry from being willing to actually judge that way.

He is quite screwed as far as the US justice system is concerned, and he knew that from the start – his primary protection is likely that if the US (or now Britain) racked up the pressure on him, he might retaliate with even worse revelations which he has likely prepared to pop automatically under certain circumstances. It's not too hard if you know how – and that he certainly does.

This is a standoff – and the best he can hope for is some sort of truce in exile, unfortunately. I hope for his sake that public attention will continue to afford him a certain amount of protection.

Thus far, he seems to deserve this protection.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8773 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7283 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 9):
This will always be a grey area.

Snowden calculated that both he and the NSA were in a grey area. What the NSA did isn't very legal. What Snowden did wasn't legal either, but he had no alternative that was within the law. It's grey, like you say.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
He decided to blow the whistle about his superiors blatantly violating the spirit of the US constitution and of universal human rights.

I think it is more than that. Any criminal can align themselves with some "principle" they see in the Constitution. That's not anything special.

Snowden really did uncover military activity that separated from the rule of law itself. And I would say it looked very illegal. But the legality was never established in the American way -- open litigation & discussion up to the Supreme Court. This was intentional. Measures were taken to prevent the judicial branch from ever reaching into the program.

They knew it was illegal -- but as long as it's protected by secrecy, anything -- massacring people by race, whatever -- can be considered "legal" in this farcical sense.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7263 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
Snowden really did uncover military activity that separated from the rule of law itself. And I would say it looked very illegal. But the legality was never established in the American way -- open litigation & discussion up to the Supreme Court. This was intentional. Measures were taken to prevent the judicial branch from ever reaching into the program.

No, there is the (secret) FISA court which formally satisfy the required judicial oversight and the whole thing is formally (and again secretly) supervised by the elected members of the respective Congress committees. I don't see any i's undotted or t's uncrossed – formally.

The formal mechanics are in place, and it is very much the "american way" to have such secret programs which wouldn't stand up to public scrutiny (not that this was an exclusively american thing).

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
They knew it was illegal -- but as long as it's protected by secrecy, anything -- massacring people by race, whatever -- can be considered "legal" in this farcical sense.

No, they ensured that it was legal! That's the whole thing!

It's up to the higher courts (likely only the USSC) to tear the formal legality of these programs to pieces on grounds of blatant violation of the spirit of the constitution (although governments have usually enjoyed quite a bit of leeway of doing that as far as it remained secret).

The bigger threat by now, however, is the political ground under these programs eroding likely even in the USA.

Even the conservative faction in the EU parliament is now (after the socialist and green factions) turning against US demands for ever-increasing access to european information, and the currently negotiated transatlantic agreements is getting unlikely to pass any more in its present form.

That Britain utterly without any inhibition whatsoever diverts any and all information passing through transatlantic links going through their territory will have its own repercussions. (This particular post will likely be flagged by lower-grade filters in exactly these british facilities for referring to Snowden, before also likely being sidelined (but still stored!) for being part of the current global news wave.    )

None of that will help Snowden directly, but the appetite for his extradition may be tempered by a sh*tstorm at home gaining momentum.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3848 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days ago) and read 7165 times:

The Hong Kong government has said it will not interfere with the matters at all, and it is all in the hands of the justice system. That of course means that an extradition request could take years to get anywhere.

The Chinese government has also stated that they will pretty much stand back and watch the show. I'm pretty sure the irony of the situation isn't lost on them. They might change their stance sometime in the future, especially if the US starts accusing China of cyber spying again. If they do, chances are it will be in a dissimulated fashion anyway.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7141 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 13):
The Hong Kong government has said it will not interfere with the matters at all, and it is all in the hands of the justice system. That of course means that an extradition request could take years to get anywhere.

Given that Snowden is currently on an SU flight to Moscow (and from there, it's probably onto the WikiLeaks jet to Iceland), Hong Kong is no longer relevant anyway. It's probably safe to say that any chance of him facing justice is next to none, unless he wants to play the martyr card...

Edit: Indeed, WikiLeaks have tweeted that one of their legal advisors is accompanying him. Next stop Iceland.

[Edited 2013-06-23 02:47:27]

User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7119 times:

Some sources say he is going to Iceland, Ecuador, Cuba or Venezuela.

I don't support him, but why would he go to Iceland? Iceland and USA are allies and they have a good relationship. I don't think Iceland would protect him at all.

I don't think USA has much to do if he goes to Cuba, but at least there is a place for traitor like him in Southern Cuba.

I don't think USA will give up. They will capture him if they want to even if it takes decades.


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7117 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 14):

SU213 and a G550. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go.  



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12597 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7114 times:

If Snowden is eventually extradited to the US, presumably a lot of new information and claims will come into the public domain; how will the US Govt deal with this; presumably they would not attempt to conduct the trial secretly?

It strikes me that a trial would bring a lot of new information into the public domain which the USG would not want to have revealed and therefore, it might be within its interests not to press aggressively for ES's extradition. The flipside is that as long as he is free, he can continue to reveal further information.

As far as the US government is concerned - and criminal law in relation to secret programs, is there any dividing line between revealing the existence of the programme and revealing certain facts; i.e. to reveal that the program exists is sufficient to have charges brought against him, but if he then reveals content, then that's another matter - but is there evidence that he did the latter?


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7103 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 15):
I don't support him, but why would he go to Iceland? Iceland and USA are allies and they have a good relationship. I don't think Iceland would protect him at all.

Iceland have very strong laws in support of whistleblowers. Whether Snowden qualifies as one will be up to the lawyers to fight over. And don't forget that WikiLeaks are based there too, despite the number of classified US documents they've been releasing for the past couple of years.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 17):
It strikes me that a trial would bring a lot of new information into the public domain which the USG would not want to have revealed and therefore, it might be within its interests not to press aggressively for ES's extradition. The flipside is that as long as he is free, he can continue to reveal further information.

For what it's worth, if they manage to bring him into custody (and that's a big one, I doubt they ever will), it will at least stop the numerous claims Snowden has been making. He's probably given Greenwald all the documents he could get his hands on, so they'll keep flowing, but at the moment it's the undocumented claims that are doing the most damage (such as Snowden's claim that he could access emails, facebook, phone calls etc. in real time, that the US is listening to every phonecall ever made anywhere in the world, etc.).


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 17):

The US Government already charged him under seal. I.e. a secret court proceeding.

It is not working. I am so ashamed of Obama.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7095 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 19):
The US Government already charged him under seal. I.e. a secret court proceeding.

Court documents are filed under seal all the time. It's usually the case when it involves information that aren't supposed to be shared with the public, such as the very documents and information Snowden is charged with releasing.


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7091 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 20):

Thank you for educating everyone else who didn't know that, as if I didn't. It's all public now anyway.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7083 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 18):
celand have very strong laws in support of whistleblowers. Whether Snowden qualifies as one will be up to the lawyers to fight over. And don't forget that WikiLeaks are based there too, despite the number of classified US documents they've been releasing for the past couple of years.

I just think that Iceland would protect Snowden. It is much easier for USA to follow him in Iceland than in South America. USA can cooperate with Icelandic authorities and follow every move he makes.

If USA wants him, they will get him in a way or another. Of course his movements will be followed and if he ever decides to go back to USA there will probably be people waiting to capture him.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7032 times:

Jeepers, the media is swarming everyone coming through the arrivals door at SVO. I guess I lived in L.A. for too long. Anytime those jokers got in my way I'd just yell at them. "Get outta my way!"

I wonder if Snowden will be shown out the back door bypassing the mess out front, or may just stay in the transit lounge for an onward flight?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7030 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):
I wonder if Snowden will be shown out the back door bypassing the mess out front, or may just stay in the transit lounge for an onward flight?

Given that the WikiLeaks Travel Office has apparently secured onward connections to CCS via HAV, he's in for a long wait if he chooses to stay in transit. The HAV flight doesn't leave until 2 pm tomorrow Moscow time.

Edit: Sounds like he could be pulling an Assange and spend the night at the Ecuadorean embassy. According to the BBC there's a car from the Ecuadorean embassy waiting at the terminal.

[Edited 2013-06-23 07:01:30]

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13202 posts, RR: 16
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7229 times:

It appears that Snowden is on the run to asylum in Venezuela, on Aeroflot airlines, with a stop in Moscow to change planes for one to Havana, Cuba, then on to Venezuela.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...he-run-again-leaves-hong-kong?lite

Apparently the HK government couldn't get further information, including if the USA was doing illegal spying in HK (and perhaps as to the PRC) from the USA to justify HK to be able to bring charges under their laws to detain him for extradition proceedings. This also gets rid of a 'hot potato' that could create hassles with trade and financial services for HK/PRC. I suspect we have a very weak and largely unenforceable extradition treaties with Venezuela.

I wonder if further charges could be brought against Snowden for an unauthorized entry into Cuba and for being a fugitive of justice. I bet the CIA will be watching his every move, especially if he ends up in Venezuela and may use illegal ways to remove him from Venezuela and bring him to the USA to face criminal proceeding.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27337 posts, RR: 60
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7206 times:

Sky News reported that Aeroflot had confirmed that a ticket in his name was in their systems. Im surprised that they would give out such information.

User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7253 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 26):
Im surprised that they would give out such information.

Nothing what a few hundred/thousand Rubles would not take care of from a curious reporter.  



John@SFO
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7210 times:

I understand he doesn't want to go to prison, but he knew what would happen if he betrays his country. Now he escapes like a coward. Most likely he would have to go to prison in USA, but now he is like a fugitive who will be followed and he can't live a normal life when he knows that he could be captured the next day.

How long sentence would he get? I don't know, but escaping is like a life sentence for him. He may not be behind bars, but he will have the feeling that somebody is following him.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7188 times:
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Quoting CPH-R (Reply 14):
Given that Snowden is currently on an SU flight to Moscow (and from there, it's probably onto the WikiLeaks jet to Iceland),

He´s on his way to HAV and from there to CCS.

Anybody here thinks the US might try to intercept the plane as they did with the Egyptair flight carrying the Achille Lauro terrorists? Just an idea, and I think they won´t do it, but they do have the capability don´t they?

So. Will the US take any measures against Caracas once Snowden gets there? I know the oil is very important, so will Snowden be perfectly safe in Venezuela and the entire thing be swept down the carpet?


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7178 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 28):
How long sentence would he get? I don't know, but escaping is like a life sentence for him. He may not be behind bars, but he will have the feeling that somebody is following him.

He's been charged with Theft of Government Property, Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information, and Willful Communication of Classified Communications Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person. Each of those charges carries a maximum prison sentence of 10 years, so 30 years maximum.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7187 times:

Point made on CNN just now, the State Dept. cancelled Snowden's passport last week, which would severely limit his mobility, unless another country would issue him one, or a country intentionally ignores the alert that his passport has been cancelled. Where to deport him if it came to that, also becomes a problem. Does he get deported to the U.S., or back to where Snowden arrived from, if they'd have him back?

So for all we know at the moment, Snowden is in stateless limbo sitting in an international transfer lounge at SVO or in some type of detention facility.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7185 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
Anybody here thinks the US might try to intercept the plane as they did with the Egyptair flight carrying the Achille Lauro terrorists? Just an idea, and I think they won´t do it, but they do have the capability don´t they?

There is always fighter jets ready to escort planes and force them to land if necessary.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
So. Will the US take any measures against Caracas once Snowden gets there? I know the oil is very important, so will Snowden be perfectly safe in Venezuela and the entire thing be swept down the carpet?

I doubt Venezuela would agree to do what USA wants. Will he be safe in Venezuela? Of course not, because everything he does will probably be followed until he is captured. USA has time to wait and if he does a mistake they will use it to capture him.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Does he get deported to the U.S., or back to where Snowden arrived from, if they'd have him back?

I think there are planes ready to take him to a place where no passports is needed.

[Edited 2013-06-23 09:50:50]

[Edited 2013-06-23 09:52:01]

User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7175 times:
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The Ambassador to Russia from Ecuador has met with Snowden and he has requested political asylum. Confirmed now by the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Ecuador.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7157 times:

https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/statuses/348841761684197378

Asylum request confirmed by Ecuador.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2406 posts, RR: 10
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7079 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 30):
He's been charged with Theft of Government Property, Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information, and Willful Communication of Classified Communications Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person. Each of those charges carries a maximum prison sentence of 10 years, so 30 years maximum.

Those three were probably just to get the ball rolling. If he ever sees the inside of a US courtroom, I'm sure there will be additional charges, plus multiple counts of each of these three. He would be lucky to face 30 years in prison.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8773 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7046 times:

I think he's foolish to be moving out of China. He's obviously panicking now.

His original instinct, to remain in China, was the right answer.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7046 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
His original instinct, to remain in China, was the right answer.

Except China decided it was no longer advisable for them to keep him, and politely (probably) told him to go find someplace else.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8773 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7013 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 37):
Except China decided it was no longer advisable for them to keep him, and politely (probably) told him to go find someplace else.

Oddly, Wikileaks caused the current rocky Ecuador / US relations (no ambassadors on either side currently). This happened in response to leaked diplomatic cables accusing the Ecuador president of knowingly tolerating police corruption.

Maybe Wikileaks then suggested to Snowden he should head for Ecuador. This fits a pattern of egomania on the part of Julian Assange. He's involved. He's probably using Snowden for his own purposes, if he can.


User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6956 posts, RR: 12
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7018 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 15):
I don't support him, but why would he go to Iceland? Iceland and USA are allies and they have a good relationship. I don't think Iceland would protect him at all.

France and the UK are allies of the USA and have a good relationship. France will extradite people to the USA, after lengthy procedures, with guarantees, and not if the accused is French (remember Roman Polanski ?). The UK will let the CIA land on their military bases to take the accused to Guantanamo.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 15):
I don't think USA will give up. They will capture him if they want to even if it takes decades.

I don't see how that could have a positive effect for the US. It seems far better to let him go into hiding and never hear of him again.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Point made on CNN just now, the State Dept. cancelled Snowden's passport last week, which would severely limit his mobility, unless another country would issue him one, or a country intentionally ignores the alert that his passport has been cancelled. Where to deport him if it came to that, also becomes a problem. Does he get deported to the U.S., or back to where Snowden arrived from, if they'd have him back?

So for all we know at the moment, Snowden is in stateless limbo sitting in an international transfer lounge at SVO or in some type of detention facility.

I don't see how the passport matters, it certainly doesn't change his citizenship, and refugees enter countries without any ID every day, it's SOP in fact.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7010 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Maybe Wikileaks then suggested to Snowden he should head for Ecuador. This fits a pattern of egomania on the part of Julian Assange.

The US threatened Hong Kong to start asking its residents for VISAS if they would not hand him to US authorities. This, among other "diplomatic" entreaties made China evaluate its position and decide Snowden wasn´t worth it. Essentially, he´s not a worthy battle.

What you say still applies though, probably Wikileaks made the suggestion after they realized China had taken the "eviction" route.


User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6974 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
I don't see how that could have a positive effect for the US. It seems far better to let him go into hiding and never hear of him again.

That is not the case. I don't think that he would stop leaking stuff if he is free and USA wants to stop him doing that.
If USA lets him go free it sends message to everybody that there is no consequences for this kind of activity.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
I don't see how the passport matters

Maybe not in South America, but in the West it matters.

[Edited 2013-06-23 13:29:53]

[Edited 2013-06-23 13:30:03]

[Edited 2013-06-23 13:30:35]

[Edited 2013-06-23 13:31:07]

User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6958 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
That is not the case. I don't think that he would stop leaking stuff if he is free and USA wants to stop him doing that.

The only thing he is currently leaking is unsubstantiated statements about what the US does to various countries. Given that some of Snowden's previous statements has been found wanting, it's interesting to see the world media uncritically spread those claims.

Whatever documents he may have brought out from Booz Allen is currently in the hands of Glenn Greenwald, who I assume is busy inventing context for them.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6933 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
That is not the case. I don't think that he would stop leaking stuff if he is free and USA wants to stop him doing that.
If USA lets him go free it sends message to everybody that there is no consequences for this kind of activity.

There's morally nothing wrong with exposing evil activities of US government. If United States went and forcefully captured him on land of any sovereign nation that would show US government in really bad light, thus it's way better for them to just leave him be and let the time pass.

In any case I believe whole world should never ever be playground for the US government, a place where they can do whatever they want without consequences. If we allow US government to do whatever they want and capture great men like Snowden because they simply did the right thing and fought against the evil then I could see some day US drones patrolling around the world, killing anyone who disagrees with US policies.

I'm glad China will continue rising, world needs a big power to oppose US government and stop them from playing world police and destroying countless of lives in the process.

I think as long as United States keeps protecting certain Cuban exile terrorists in Miami, guilty of several bombings, including one Cubana passenger jet, other countries should not send any people no matter what crimes they are wanted for back to United States for conviction.

[Edited 2013-06-23 14:01:41]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineNBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6923 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
Maybe not in South America, but in the West it matters.

A quote from our own Imigration page: "Refugee status or asylum may be granted to people who have been persecuted or fear they will be persecuted on account of race, religion, nationality, and/or membership in a particular social group or political opinion."

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...4d77d73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

Nowhere on the site does it specify a requirement to have a Visa, all it says is that you must request it at the port of entry, ie: customs at the airport. For high profile cases such as Mr. Snowden it is a formality, since the proper authorities know he's coming. When it comes to political asylum and refugee status, if verifiable citizenship and travel documents were a requirement, no one would ever make it to another county under that status.

The same thing happened to that Chinese professor who requested asylum in the US last year.



"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6852 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
The US threatened Hong Kong to start asking its residents for VISAS if they would not hand him to US authorities.

They've threatened everyone along the route so far. Including the Russians. Now you know Putin could care less about that.   



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6956 posts, RR: 12
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6821 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
This, among other "diplomatic" entreaties made China evaluate its position and decide Snowden wasn´t worth it. Essentially, he´s not a worthy battle.

Which tells us he has already spilled his guts or the Chinese consider he has nothing interesting to offer.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
That is not the case. I don't think that he would stop leaking stuff if he is free and USA wants to stop him doing that.
If USA lets him go free it sends message to everybody that there is no consequences for this kind of activity.

I don't believe he has much to leak he hasn't already leaked. And preventing him from traveling to his home country and many other countries is not "letting him go free". It's not like he has murdered someone and there is a grieving family wanting justice either. This is a political hot potato, if the US actually had him embarrassment would ensue. Just like nobody in the west wanted Saddam or Qaddafi to live long enough to tell tales. He's better alive and hidden than in custody or assassinated (making him a martyr).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6816 times:
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Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 45):
They've threatened everyone along the route so far. Including the Russians. Now you know Putin could care less about that.

Really? Interesting. I only read about the threat being specifically directed at Hong Kong. Putin would probably havea good laugh with that, but I did not know Russia was on the VISA waiver program.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 46):
Which tells us he has already spilled his guts or the Chinese consider he has nothing interesting to offer.

Exactly. I put it in a more subtle way. Why Ecuador wants to get into these messes is one of those mysteries only Latin America seems capable of producing. It´s not like Correa is a champion of the Free Press.


User currently offlineNBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6783 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):

Exactly. I put it in a more subtle way. Why Ecuador wants to get into these messes is one of those mysteries only Latin America seems capable of producing. It´s not like Correa is a champion of the Free Press.


It is a way for a small country to stick it to the big bad 'Murica.

Now, that being said I hope he makes it, although I have a feeling there is going to be an Aeroflot plane sitting on the ground in New England tomorrow afternoon.



"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 48):
I have a feeling there is going to be an Aeroflot plane sitting on the ground in New England tomorrow afternoon.

If the U.S. hadn't gone out of its way in the past decade or so to get on everyone's bad side, perhaps Hong Kong, China, Russia and other countries wouldn't be so willing to blow our requests for assistance off, like they're doing. It's as if they're all saying they've no respect for us and have nothing to lose.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6746 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 49):
If the U.S. hadn't gone out of its way in the past decade or so to get on everyone's bad side, perhaps Hong Kong, China, Russia and other countries wouldn't be so willing to blow our requests for assistance off, like they're doing. It's as if they're all saying they've no respect for us and have nothing to lose.

Because America is the worst country in the world. All previous governments incompetent. The country goes out of it's way to peeve everybody off.

...yeah.

You know it's a lost battle for America when even it's own citizen can't see beyond the fluff and media barrage and harbor negative views upon itself.

China and Russia must be loving this right now. Who needs to attack America... the Americans will do it to themselves. Why send spies there, just give it time, some idealist will release what we want to know in due time.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13202 posts, RR: 16
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6710 times:

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 48):
Now, that being said I hope he makes it, although I have a feeling there is going to be an Aeroflot plane sitting on the ground in New England tomorrow afternoon.

I doubt it. The diplomatic, political and commercial crises a forced diversion of a foreign aircraft would cause would be really bad in our dealings with an already difficult situation between the USA and Russia, as well as worldwide. The last thing the USA needs is to create more hatred toward it, we already have enough of it.

The USA government could deny Aeroflot the right to use USA airspace on the Moscow-Havana flight, but they could go around that, operating via another country or using a route avoiding USA airspace. I wouldn't be surprised the flight Snowden will be closely followed by our military aircraft over international waters and by our radar until it gets to Havana, but not diverted. Of course if the flight with Snowden had a mechanical problem, so serious that they had to land at the closest airport and if is in Canada or the USA and passengers had to leave the a/c, that would cause a situation with no recallable precedent.

At this point, it may be better to let Snowden continue on to Ecuador, watch him there as best as possible and let him rot. Better to not support his ego and trigger more disclosures.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29839 posts, RR: 58
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6777 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):

Anybody here thinks the US might try to intercept the plane as they did with the Egyptair flight carrying the Achille Lauro terrorists? Just an idea, and I think they won´t do it, but they do have the capability don´t they?

Oh, I am sure we could rig up something. Plenty of fighters at Langley, tanker support.

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 48):
I have a feeling there is going to be an Aeroflot plane sitting on the ground in New England tomorrow afternoon.

Maybe, Part of me wants to see that but there would be hell to pay with the Russians. To be honest that might explain why he is on the Aeroflot flight. If he went on a Cuban or Ecuadorian Airline I think the US would be a lot less hesitant to bring it in.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Maybe Wikileaks then suggested to Snowden he should head for Ecuador.

Oh, I have no doubt of that.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
France and the UK are allies of the USA and have a good relationship. France will extradite people to the USA, after lengthy procedures, with guarantees, and not if the accused is French (remember Roman Polanski ?).

Yes and no, I remember the years of grief it took to get Ira Einhorn back after he was convicted a second time for murder.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
The US threatened Hong Kong to start asking its residents for VISAS if they would not hand him to US authorities.

Well extortion is something the US government has a history of doing well. Besides what other choice did Obummer have after he was informed by his staff that Team America was a fictional movie and that they are puppets.

[Edited 2013-06-23 18:56:05]


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineWSTAKL From New Zealand, joined Jun 2011, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6729 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 51):
At this point, it may be better to let Snowden continue on to Ecuador, watch him there as best as possible and let him rot. Better to not support his ego and trigger more disclosures.

That's not a very nice thing to say about your fellow American citizen....


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13202 posts, RR: 16
Reply 54, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 53):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 51): At this point, it may be better to let Snowden continue on to Ecuador, watch him there as best as possible and let him rot. Better to not support his ego and trigger more disclosures.
That's not a very nice thing to say about your fellow American citizen....

That is far more humane than what some of my fellow Americans want as to Snowden, some of whom want him either murdered by the CIA or to face a 'trial' that would be find ways to make sure he is convicted and sent to life in a 'supermax' jail, where they keep convicted terrorists.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3848 posts, RR: 11
Reply 55, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6681 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 43):
other countries should not send any people no matter what crimes they are wanted for back to United States for conviction.

And he hasn't killed or hurt anyone. The way he is being tracked and hated, you'd think he was Bin Laden. Funny how the media can manage to convey an image to an entire population.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20357 posts, RR: 59
Reply 56, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6688 times:

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 48):
Now, that being said I hope he makes it, although I have a feeling there is going to be an Aeroflot plane sitting on the ground in New England tomorrow afternoon.

If the US intercepts and diverts an Aeroflot flight that isn't in US airspace, it will be war. We aren't that stupid.

In the end, the CIA and DHS and FBI are going to have to have to sit down and have a serious think. When they have a program like this, it WILL be leaked. There is absolutely no way to stop it. It WILL be leaked.

So... do you want to have a program that not only pisses off large portions of the US, but also pisses off our rivals enough that they pull this kind of stunt?


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 57, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6673 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
Really? Interesting. I only read about the threat being specifically directed at Hong Kong. Putin would probably havea good laugh with that, but I did not know Russia was on the VISA waiver program.

Hmm that's a little passive aggressive. But, no worries AR385. I didn't realize I was talking specifically about the visa waiver program:

Courtesy of The Guardian:

Quote:
Democratic senator Chuck Schumer accused the Russian president of sticking a finger in the eye of the US.

"The bottom line is very simple: allies are supposed to treat each other in decent ways and Putin always seems almost eager to put a finger in the eye of the United States, whether it is Syria, Iran and now of course with Snowden," Schumer said on CNN's State of the Union.

"That's not how allies should treat each other and I think it will have serious consequences for the United States-Russia relationship."

Mike Rogers, chairman of the House permanent select committee on intelligence, told NBC's Meet The Press that he did not have information that Putin had prior knowledge of Snowden's flight plans but "it wouldn't surprise me".

"Putin has been planting a thorn in the world's side in Syria. We think they may not be playing honest with respect to the nuclear treaty. They are very aggressive around the world," he said. "I'm sure they would love to have a little bit of coffee and some conversation with Mr Snowden."

To reiterate, I don't think Putin gives a capital F about what dummy Chuck Schumer (who?) thinks about US-Russia relations. Putin has/will outlasted/outlast most of these congresspersons.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6956 posts, RR: 12
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6551 times:

Well Putin/Russia thinks that the only way it can matter in the world is by being opposed to the west on as many subjects as possible. And he is right, unfortunately.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6504 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 56):
If the US intercepts and diverts an Aeroflot flight that isn't in US airspace, it will be war. We aren't that stupid.

I highly doubt that. There will more than likely be financial concessions or some return of a suspected spy or something along those lines, plus a bit of saber rattling. In the end very little escalation of real tensions, just the usual puffery by both sides.



"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

According to Interfax, "Snowden's track has been lost". He has likely left Russia on "a different flight".

[Edited 2013-06-24 06:22:45]


PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6202 times:

The Guardian has a live update of Assange's conference call about Snowden's whereabouts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...rom-moscow-to-havana-live-coverage

Quote:
Wikileaks has paid for Snowden’s travel costs and lodgings since he has left Hong Kong, Assange revealed. But Snowden paid his own hotel bills in Hong Kong, he said.

Asked about how Snowden had been able to travel after his US passport had been cancelled, Assange said Snowden was “supplied with a refugee document of passage by the Ecuadoran government”. But this did not imply they would accept his asylum application.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6082 times:
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Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 57):
Hmm that's a little passive aggressive. But, no worries AR385. I didn't realize I was talking specifically about the visa waiver program:

It was not my intention to have sounded passive-aggressive. I do not play that game in sites or in person. When I have something to say I just say it. I´m sorry if my post came across that way to you. And my statement about Russia was a legitimate question because I thought they were not in the VISA waiver program, but then I thought why not and realized I did not know one way or the other.

Anyway, according to this:

http://internacional.elpais.com/inte.../actualidad/1372087825_442608.html

Since yesterday the US government has gone all out to demand in their strongest terms that Snowden be detained. It´s not that loony Senator you quote anymore. It has engaged all the possible Latin American governments who may contribute anything towards aiding him, and has threatened Russia with "reevaluating their relationship" if they allow him to leave.

Wether Putin cares or not, is beside the point. He is not stupid, I assume, but a most cunning and conniving statesman. If pissing the US off serves his agenda, he´ll do it. If it does not, Snowden will be delivered with a ribbon to DC from Moscow. I don´t see anything strategically worthy that Putin will be gaining by supporting Snowden at this point.

The problem is not what the US is requesting, but the way they are going on about it. It´s precisely that way of doing things in the international community that generates all the support for sites like Wikileaks and people like Assange and Snowden. But worse, makes governmentes like Russia´s and Ecuador´s actually have something to gain from appearing like they are resisting the usual big bully.


User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6032 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 62):
The problem is not what the US is requesting, but the way they are going on about it. It´s precisely that way of doing things in the international community that generates all the support for sites like Wikileaks and people like Assange and Snowden

What is the right way to go on then? USA doesn't give options, because there are no options.

I don't support Wikileaks or people like these two cowards. I support USA and hope he will be brought back to the USA in a way or another.

[Edited 2013-06-24 11:08:24]

User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5973 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 63):
What is the right way to go on then? USA doesn't give options, because there are no options.

The only right way is for the US to stop playing world police and let other countries handle their own business. That's the only way to stop all the hatred and terrorist threats against United States. Then there would be no need to spy private people anymore.

It's not like those terrorists (or at least mos of them) are just random madmen who attack United States for no reason or because they hate American way of life or any other stupid cliché like that. No, pretty much all the terrorism against United States and its allies is direct result from them messing around elsewhere, especially in Muslim countries.

But I know if you could choose United States would have absolute power over the whole world to force western culture, "democracy" and capitalism over everyone no matter if they want it or not. That's your ideal world.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineEGPH From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5950 times:

So is there any definite answer to whether Mr Snowden is on AFL150 to Cuba today (June 24th)? As I am writing this FlightAware has the flight just entering US airspace from Canada over Lake Erie into Ohio. I have to say that if Aeroflot/Russia manage to transport Mr Snowden to Cuba right over the Americans I will be raising a glass to them for their brazen actions!!

User currently offlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3394 posts, RR: 11
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5939 times:

The USAF can not force the airliner to land, unless it flies through US airspace. And even then I think it is going to be hard. What's to stop the plane from continueing flying to Havana? I don't believe the USAF would shoort down a plane full of civilians just to get even with Snowden. That would cause a major shitstorm.

My guess is that the flight Snowden is on, of course assuming the CIA knows which one it will be, is (just by coincidence!) going to have two or three drunk people that are going to cause a mess in the cabin thereby forcing a diversion to the nearest airport. This can then be timed to make the landing at a US friendly airport. Or perhaps someone having a sudden medical emergency. That would force the plane down without diplomatic incident. Everyone will suspect CIA involvement when it happens, but as long as there ain't another leak in half a years time no one will be able to prove it.

Of course Snowden is not really the problem at this point. He's just a symptom. The real problem is that too many people have too much access to information that should be kept secret. Not only that, these people seem to be able to make copies of said information and take it home. The US intelligence communities should really work on their data management.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5955 times:

Apparently live from Aeroflot:

«OK. That was good. Pilot came on PA and said, "Is there an Edward Snowden on board? If so, please ring your call button."»

https://twitter.com/hankschulman/statuses/349194138027167745

  



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSoJo From UK - England, joined Nov 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5931 times:
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Just to add my thought on his flying out of Russia. Would it not be possible for him to be on a cargo flight to somewhere?


RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
User currently offlineEGPH From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5912 times:

Quoting SoJo (Reply 68):

There are many possibilities. He could be on today's AFL150 but I doubt it personally. It could be that Aeroflot/ the Russian Government are waiting a few days to see where the land lies with AFL150s flight over the US. If there's been no trouble by Friday, they might try and run him to Cuba onboard that. I think flying him out on the first available Cuba bound flight was too obvious. Of course he may have caught another flight to somewhere else but I think there are only a small number of countries that would accept him (for example I don't think he would last 5 minutes if he were to land in an EU country). I think only some LatAm countries and some Central Asian countries that don't care for the US would have him. Though I do have a theory that to try and outwit any spies onboard AFL150 this week Aeroflot MAY allow Mr Snowden to travel in the jumpseat (that way it would take some very good intel work to catch them out).

Although whatever happens I have an interesting question. If it comes out in the wash that not only did Aeroflot fly him out of HKG but also flew him onto LatAm, would the US government not try and push for sanctions against Aeroflot, maybe revoke rights to their US destinations?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 63):
I don't support Wikileaks or people like these two cowards.

There can be quite a few different opinions about these two, but both are about as far removed from being cowards as it gets.

When have you last risked the rest of your whole life for something you thought was right?


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11803 posts, RR: 15
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5909 times:

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 66):
The real problem is that too many people have too much access to information that should be kept secret. Not only that, these people seem to be able to make copies of said information and take it home. The US intelligence communities should really work on their data management.

By contracting out to private companies. That is one HUGE issue that no one is talking about. This guy was able to walk away with all this data. We don't know what kind of data the private company actually collected. They just passed on what the government wanted. All this is because the right wanted to sacrifice a little security for liberty called Patriot Act. And, now, they blame Obama. Who signed that piece into law in the first place?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5888 times:
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Quoting EGPH (Reply 69):
There are many possibilities. He could be on today's AFL150 but I doubt it personally.

Wherever he ends up, I don´t think it will be onboard a commercial flight.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5847 times:

One of the obvious consequences is that the massive data collections by the US, Britain and the rest of the "Five Eyes" have almost certainly been skimmed already by the chinese and others.

A large group of people with access to this stinking pile of privacy violation is just inherently obvious to have leaks much less benign than Snowden's.

It is likely that the damage caused by the construction itself by far outweighs any presumable benefits.


User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5798 times:

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 66):
My guess is that the flight Snowden is on, of course assuming the CIA knows which one it will be, is (just by coincidence!) going to have two or three drunk people that are going to cause a mess in the cabin thereby forcing a diversion to the nearest airport. This can then be timed to make the landing at a US friendly airport. Or perhaps someone having a sudden medical emergency. That would force the plane down without diplomatic incident. Everyone will suspect CIA involvement when it happens, but as long as there ain't another leak in half a years time no one will be able to prove it.

This is soooo "White Nights" that 80s film with Baryshnikov playing a Russian who defected to the US and he and his dance company are onboard a flight that 'happens' to pass over the Soviet Union (of the time). Well, you can imagine what happens next after the plane develops engine trouble.. !


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5784 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 73):
One of the obvious consequences is that the massive data collections by the US, Britain and the rest of the "Five Eyes" have almost certainly been skimmed already by the chinese and others.

A large group of people with access to this stinking pile of privacy violation is just inherently obvious to have leaks much less benign than Snowden's.

It is likely that the damage caused by the construction itself by far outweighs any presumable benefits.

The biggest problem is that the governments of those countries (including my own) which have proclaimed citizen´s rights, have now been exposed of having openly broken them. Thisis of course water on the propaganda mills of the governments, which treat their citizens as government property, to be used and abused as the governments like it. This way the West has no moral authority anymore.
Essentially what these spying programmes do is like the East German Stasi on steroids. The aim seems gto be to create a dossier on each and every citizen, with all savoury and not so savoury details included. The Stasi tried to do something like this, but got overwhelmed by the flood of data. But today´s computer capacities allow for the processing of such a waste amount of data.
Ex FBI director Hoover did exactly this with dossiers about influential people in the US during his time in office from the 1930s to the 1960s. He used this information to blackmail elected government members to get concessions.
I also have heard about British councils using covered surveillance for as small offenses as checking who is putting the wrong rubbish into the recycling bins. Give somebody extra powers and he will abuse it.

Jan


User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5603 times:

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 66):
I don't believe the USAF would shoort down a plane full of civilians just to get even with Snowden. That would cause a major shitstorm.

Of course they wouldn't shoot a plane down just to get Snowden, but if airline refuses to land it may not fly in the US airspace for a while. That kind of situation would lead to a diplomatic nightmare.

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 66):
My guess is that the flight Snowden is on, of course assuming the CIA knows which one it will be, is (just by coincidence!) going to have two or three drunk people that are going to cause a mess in the cabin thereby forcing a diversion to the nearest airport.

Lets remember that Snowden has worked for NSA via another company. These people are well trained and they are not stupid. Why would he fly on a flight when the whole world knows which flight it is?

I think US authorities know much more than they tell to the media. Why would they tell what they know? If they would tell where he is going, media would continue to run after him. He is probably being followed all the time. They just wait that he makes mistakes. It is not easy to capture him for example in Russia if local authorities don't want to cooperate. If he would travel for example to Western Europe there would be people waiting for him at the gate.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 70):
There can be quite a few different opinions about these two, but both are about as far removed from being cowards as it gets.

When have you last risked the rest of your whole life for something you thought was right?

Betraying your country is something I don't accept in the West where we already have much more rights than in developing countries. For example the situation in Syria is very different and there I would accept betraying country, because that country is killing its citizens.

These guys are cowards that have done wrong and they fear to face the court. For example Assange has said if he leaves the embassy, he would be captured. There wouldn't be an aircraft waiting to get him to the USA.

Ecuador is not trying to create free country where everybody can say and do what they want. It is trying to protect its own interests. Their politics are anti-American and they will be. I don't know what they are trying to win with it.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5567 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
His superiors didn't violate the law

If they failed in meeting requirements related to any security clearance Snowden had then there can be problems. MY FBI BI (required for a Top Secret clearance) cost about $10K in the mid 60's. Shaving costs getting a clearance for Snowden opens significant legal risks.

I would be amazed if the government & politicians (both Democrats & Republicans) didn't push hard to set examples

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
But the legality was never established in the American way -- open litigation & discussion up to the Supreme Court.

There are many "American Ways" to establish legality. Congress passing a law that is signed by the President establishes legality. That can be challenged in the courts, but not all laws passed will even be challenged to the USSC. Jeez - those 9 Judges would have to work a full working year like most working Americans and they still would't be able to keep up.

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 18):
Iceland have very strong laws in support of whistleblowers. Whether Snowden qualifies as one will be up to the lawyers to fight over. And don't forget that WikiLeaks are based there too, despite the number of classified US documents they've been releasing for the past couple of years.

There is a huge difference between whistleblowers and spies.

My bet is that he is giving copies of everything he has on his laptops to the Chinese to pay for his stay, same for Russia and anywhere else he gets help from.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 19):
I am so ashamed of Obama.

He has sworn to Protect & Defend - your preference is to simply let all nuts or traitors take what ever they want?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 25):
I bet the CIA will be watching his every move, especially if he ends up in Venezuela and may use illegal ways to remove him from Venezuela and bring him to the USA to face criminal proceeding.


Or simply kill him while he's there. Saves airfare and lawyer fees.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 43):
There's morally nothing wrong with exposing evil activities of US government.

But legally there are problems if you break the law. Maybe with so many people debating the legality of this traitor's actions we need to get back to how many people are damaged by this traitor's actions. Someone who seriously hurt by this bum's games may well have friends who can simply kill the guy. There is going to be some point where these nuts/traitors cause someone to say "enough". And, ironically, that person may be far from a government employee.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 43):
thus it's way better for them to just leave him be and let the time pass.

Maybe the government should first shut down the company who hired him and gave him the keys. Lots of potential for arrests in that company, long expensive trials, etc. Might motivate other companies with potential traitors like Snowden will start looking around their shops for potential problems.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 43):
In any case I believe whole world should never ever be playground for the US government,

The world was not a "playground" in WW II, nor was it a "playground" when US taxpayer funds were used for rebuilding after WW II.

Same with all the taxpayer's money that went to military spending required for the Nuclear Umbrella during the Cold War.

While we may have some politicians who have done really stupid things (like the invasion of Iraq) most of the nation's efforts over my 68 years of living have helped make this a better world.

Now there are a lot of taxpayers who would love for us to simply stop sending money and people overseas, be it for military, intelligence or humanitarian reasons. They are more tired of this "playground thing" than you are and they are actually getting elected these days. I just don't know how happy you'd be if they get their way.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2570 posts, RR: 14
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days ago) and read 5470 times:

Well, the surest way of never facing trial would be for him to willingly enter the Guantanamo Bay detention center...

But on a more earnest side: If Snowden would have exposed the Chinese (or less so, the Russian) intelligence gathering on the internet, the U.S. would celebrate him as a hero. IMHO he just happens to come from "our" side. Troubling double standards are rampant.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5456 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 76):
Ecuador is not trying to create free country where everybody can say and do what they want. It is trying to protect its own interests. Their politics are anti-American and they will be. I don't know what they are trying to win with it.

Ecuador already is a free country.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 77):
But legally there are problems if you break the law. Maybe with so many people debating the legality of this traitor's actions we need to get back to how many people are damaged by this traitor's actions.

How does exposing the world the fact that US government is spying communication networks all around the world hurt any individual? I see no way Snowdens actions could cause any danger to any individual. He's not a traitor, he's a good man who did the right thing. He helped his own American people to see what kind of BS their government is doing all the time.

Only one getting hurt here is the US government and they deserve it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 77):
Now there are a lot of taxpayers who would love for us to simply stop sending money and people overseas, be it for military, intelligence or humanitarian reasons. They are more tired of this "playground thing" than you are and they are actually getting elected these days. I just don't know how happy you'd be if they get their way.

I would be very happy if that happened. World would be much better place if United States didn't mess up the natural way of things elsewhere in the world. Sure some nations like Israel would probably eventually cease to exist if United States didn't support them, however that's just life. Nations come and go.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5422 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):

I have to say, I enjoy reading your posts. Not that I agree with you at all, but they are funny and entertaining, in a Tokyo Rose-ish sort of way. At times far out and extreme. Maybe even in the style of Ann Coulter vs. the democrats. Is it baiting? Does one take the bait? I enjoy seeing who does..

Not that you aren't entitled to your opinion mind you... 


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5396 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 62):
Since yesterday the US government has gone all out to demand in their strongest terms that Snowden be detained. It´s not that loony Senator you quote anymore. It has engaged all the possible Latin American governments who may contribute anything towards aiding him, and has threatened Russia with "reevaluating their relationship" if they allow him to leave.

Wether Putin cares or not, is beside the point. He is not stupid, I assume, but a most cunning and conniving statesman. If pissing the US off serves his agenda, he´ll do it. If it does not, Snowden will be delivered with a ribbon to DC from Moscow. I don´t see anything strategically worthy that Putin will be gaining by supporting Snowden at this point.

The problem is not what the US is requesting, but the way they are going on about it. It´s precisely that way of doing things in the international community that generates all the support for sites like Wikileaks and people like Assange and Snowden. But worse, makes governmentes like Russia´s and Ecuador´s actually have something to gain from appearing like they are resisting the usual big bully.

We are really in agreement. I don't think it serves the US to outright threaten governments. In the international press they are already talking about 'America the bully'. I think it is unfair and ignorant, and it does not jive with the tenants of international cooperation that America always lauds publicly.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 64):
The only right way is for the US to stop playing world police and let other countries handle their own business. That's the only way to stop all the hatred and terrorist threats against United States. Then there would be no need to spy private people anymore.

   If for no other reason...why should it be the responsibility of US taxpayers to pay for world security? It has passed the line of ridiculousness.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 77):
He has sworn to Protect & Defend - your preference is to simply let all nuts or traitors take what ever they want?

He's deceived people himself. He ran on this false platform partially of transparency in government, and it was all BS. The Obama Administration has gone after more whistle-blowers and journalists than all previous administrations combined. That is ridiculous. I really get tired of the Washington establishment, especially since I live here full time and deal with these people. They act like Dukes, Princes, and Kings...America isn't a monarchy. I think his Nobel should be revoked. And I am a hardcore moderate-liberal, and a staunch democrat. I seriously have a love/hate relationship with Obama right now.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6956 posts, RR: 12
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5381 times:

Quoting EGPH (Reply 69):
for example I don't think he would last 5 minutes if he were to land in an EU country

I wouldn't be so sure, plenty of lawyers in France would be ready to help him. On the other hand if he landed in a private jet without the public knowing, then I don't know. But we don't let the CIA roam around our country like the UK or Germany does.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
Ex FBI director Hoover did exactly this with dossiers about influential people in the US during his time in office from the 1930s to the 1960s. He used this information to blackmail elected government members to get concessions.
I also have heard about British councils using covered surveillance for as small offenses as checking who is putting the wrong rubbish into the recycling bins. Give somebody extra powers and he will abuse it.

This is still happening in France, in fact it is being revealed that the DCRI (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence) couldn't handle the surveillance of terrorist Mohammed Merah because they were too busy tracking far left activists (who have not committed any significant action in decades). The DCRI wikipedia article is all about it trying to make wikipedia delete another article, it says it all ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directi...le_du_renseignement_int%C3%A9rieur

Quoting finnishway (Reply 76):
Betraying your country is

not black or white. When you listen to right/far right US politicians, it seems the principles of the constitution written centuries ago trump all. Well, I don't think that sacred constitution condones massive spying of US citizens (or foreign ones for that matter, since the US was not about interventionism at the time).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12897 posts, RR: 46
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5334 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Aesma (Reply 82):
But we don't let the CIA roam around our country like the UK or Germany does.

You mean, that you're aware of.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlinembmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5271 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 76):
Betraying your country is something I don't accept in the West where we already have much more rights than in developing countries.

Just a few questions for you; who is betraying our country? Snowden? The NSA? The current Administration and Congress who apparently knew about this spying?

Betraying one's country is something I too don't accept but who is doing the betraying?

Also you mention that "...in the west where we already have much more rights..."

Interesting statement since Americans apparently been stripped of our right to privacy without government search and seizure.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5252 times:

I find it strange that he' never finished high school, doesn't have a IT degree and his first job at the NSA was as a security guard.

Then he got a job with the CIA to work on it security then back to NSA.

I can see a small company maybe not having a degree as a requirement but the CIA?


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8773 posts, RR: 3
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 73):

A large group of people with access to this stinking pile of privacy violation is just inherently obvious to have leaks much less benign than Snowden's.

The new technologies are a boon to all the totalitarian regimes of the world.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 77):
Congress passing a law that is signed by the President establishes legality.

IMO it might be called "a fleeting immunity from prosecution" rather than "legality." If the President & Congress pass a law saying slavery is good, it is only a stunt -- slavery is still illegal by the 13th Amendment.

Without a possibility of court review, law itself really doesn't have any meaning. Saying something is "legal" as distinct from "what the leader likes" presumes the existence of a court to sort out conflicting laws.

If you or I can selectively pick our own opinions & laws, including "the POTUS can do what pleases him in a time of war," everything is legal... and nothing is legal. There is no longer a legal system.

Then you have a "banana republic" and "kangaroo courts."


User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5174 times:

Putin is right now visiting in Finland and he said to the media that Snowden is currently in Moscow. He also said that USA and Russia doesn't have extradition agreement and they are not going to extradite people to countries that they don't have this kind of contract with. His opinion is that it is better for both Snowden and Russia if he leaves as soon as possible.

Source: http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/201306250175143_uu.shtml

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 84):
Just a few questions for you; who is betraying our country? Snowden? The NSA? The current Administration and Congress who apparently knew about this spying?

Betraying one's country is something I too don't accept but who is doing the betraying?

Snowden.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 84):
Also you mention that "...in the west where we already have much more rights..."

Interesting statement since Americans apparently been stripped of our right to privacy without government search and seizure.

Well, I think you know what I meant.

[Edited 2013-06-25 10:06:45]

[Edited 2013-06-25 10:07:33]

User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5139 times:

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 84):
Interesting statement since Americans apparently been stripped of our right to privacy without government search and seizure.

You have? The data might be collected inadvertently, but even Greenwald admits that any data collected on Americans cannot be accessed without a warrant.


User currently offlinembmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5136 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 87):
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 84):Just a few questions for you; who is betraying our country? Snowden? The NSA? The current Administration and Congress who apparently knew about this spying?

Betraying one's country is something I too don't accept but who is doing the betraying?
Quoting finnishway (Reply 87):
Snowden.

How has Snowden betrayed the country?


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 89):
How has Snowden betrayed the country?

When he went talking to pro-Beijing South China Morning Post about alleged US hacking activities against China.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

Putin on why Russia won't be extraditing Snowden to the United States:

Quote:
Putin appeared to lash out at US accusations that the Kremlin was harbouring a fugitive. "Any accusations against Russia are nonsense and rubbish," Putin said.

Putin also appeared to throw his support behind Snowden as well as the WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, currently holed up at Ecuador's embassy in London.

"Assange and Snowden consider themselves human rights activists and say they are fighting for the spread of information," Putin said. "Ask yourself this: should you hand these people over so they will be put in prison?

"In any case, I'd rather not deal with such questions, because anyway it's like shearing a pig – lots of screams but little wool."

Putin rules out US extradition for Edward Snowden



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 92, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5100 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
How does exposing the world the fact that US government is spying communication networks all around the world hurt any individual?

You are assuming that there is nothing else in his 4 laptops - only information that the US was getting phone databases. That is not much for countries like China and Russia to be taking care of him.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
He's not a traitor, he's a good man who did the right thing.

Are you assuming that, or hoping that?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 79):
Sure some nations like Israel would probably eventually cease to exist if United States didn't support them, however that's just life.

Toss in South Korea as a high risk country.

And go ahead and acknowledge that countries like Israel and South Korea might cease to exist in a real nuclear way.

Also toss in the reality that you might have to pick up some of the costs of international humanitarian funding that our cost cutters want. No doubt you are ready for those increases in your taxes ti keep the US out of your playground.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 93, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5090 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 92):
Toss in South Korea as a high risk country.

I don´t think China will give any info. to North Korea that may affect Seoul in any way.


User currently offlinembmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 94, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5087 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 90):
When he went talking to pro-Beijing South China Morning Post about alleged US hacking activities against China.

Is that a crime? Is that a betrayal?


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5058 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 92):
You are assuming that there is nothing else in his 4 laptops - only information that the US was getting phone databases. That is not much for countries like China and Russia to be taking care of him.

Well then do you have any proof about him having some other, potentially dangerous info on his laptops?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 92):
Are you assuming that, or hoping that?

Personally I don't count any American acting against US government a traitor to his country. It has been a long time from when US government last time actually served ordinary American people and tried to make their lives better instead of going all around the world fighting and gaining corrupt super rich people even more money and power.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 92):
And go ahead and acknowledge that countries like Israel and South Korea might cease to exist in a real nuclear way.

Nah, without US backing both South Korea and Israel could be defeated using traditional weapons, no need for nuclear weapons I believe.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 92):
Also toss in the reality that you might have to pick up some of the costs of international humanitarian funding that our cost cutters want. No doubt you are ready for those increases in your taxes ti keep the US out of your playground.

I think humanitarian aid is mostly useless, especially any aid that is being sent to any part of Africa where it most likely ends up in pockets of corrupt politicians or military leaders. I believe western would should not give any aid to most of Africa, Middle East, Afghanistan etc. Latin America might be worth it though.

Most African countries are just as bad or even worse than when humanitarian aid truly started flowing to them.

My country didn't take any Marshall aid after WW2, yet we have managed to build one of the best societies in the world, a true welfare system. We did it through hard work and that's the way people in developing world have to do it too. Giving money and other resources from abroad is useless if people themselves don't work as one nation for better future.

United States is free to end its humanitarian aid to those poor countries without anyone else having to replace that task. In the end it would be only good for the future of those countries.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1300 posts, RR: 4
Reply 96, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5046 times:

We swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. We pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States. Neither of one these are the US Government.

The flag is a symbol of all that America is supposed to stand for.

The Constitution is a set of rules crafted specifically to protect US citizens FROM the U.S. Government.

Classifying Snowden as a traitor is a misnomer. At most he is both a Patriot and a traitor. Disclosing the government's abuses of power and illegal (as the Constitution intended) activities against its citizens is a responsible, heroic and patriotic act. If in the process he created a danger to national security then perhaps he is in fact a traitor too. The problem is who should rightfully determine if a breach of national security occurred? The government...that same organization whose subversive activity he exposed? That same organization that he has threatened? Who is the real threat to liberty here, Snowden or the government itself?

I don't support the current U.S Administration. I didn't vote for any of these people. Does that make me a traitor? Who determines that? By virtue of this post I am putting that fact into their database to be stored forever. Will some future secret government court at some indeterminate point in time decide that based on that statement I am a threat to national security? Its quite a slippery slope and I for one am glad that this is all out in the open. I am so sick of the hypocrisy of this government. Spreading its filth throughout the globe on the one hand and spouting freedom and justice on the other. It tarnishes all of us with its contaminated brush.

I am sworn to defend the U.S. Constitution the principles therein and my fellow countrymen. Not a corrupt, immoral and incompetent governing body that threatens and is in fact actively stifling the very principles of liberty and freedom it is supposed to be promoting.

Hopefully Snowden will be able to flip a few more birds at the administration as he works his way toward whatever his final destination will be. One thing is fairly certain though. He wont be testifying in any American court. Too many people have too much to lose. He will likely just disappear or perhaps suffer a tragic accident or mystery illness.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5018 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 91):
"Assange and Snowden consider themselves human rights activists and say they are fighting for the spread of information," Putin said. "Ask yourself this: should you hand these people over so they will be put in prison?

LMFAO! Putin, the defender of human rights activists.... Ms. Politkovskaya must be spinning in her grave.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7815 posts, RR: 3
Reply 98, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

There has been talk about what would come out in a trial.

This assumes that any trial would be open.

It also assumes that he would not go for an indefinite trip to Cuba.

IMO, if the US Govt does get him, then any sort of "real" trial is remote.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 99, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 93):
I don´t think China will give any info. to North Korea that may affect Seoul in any way.

I was responding to pvjin's comments, adding South Korea to the list of countries that might fall without US support.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
Personally I don't count any American acting against US government a traitor to his country.

Obviously not.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
It has been a long time from when US government last time actually served ordinary American people and tried to make their lives better

I'm an ordinary American and I believe I have been well served by my country. This past January my government picked up the tab for robotic surgery to take out a kidney tumor. I have paid into Medicare (and continue to do so) and I also have a very affordable gap policy so my cost for the surgery was gas (petrol) money to get to the hospital and then back home. The US is serving tens of millions of elderly Americans with retirement programs, disabled Americans (and Vets), children being educated, national infrastructures, investments in R&D around the country, etc.

Maybe you simply haven't seen much of the world - physically seen it through travel - to understand what really goes on in the world.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
Nah, without US backing both South Korea and Israel could be defeated using traditional weapons, no need for nuclear weapons I believe.

Israel, in most people's opinion, has them and will use them if necessary to defend themselves. North Korea appears to have a few and I would assume that the South has a few.

IMO, believing that both of those countries would fall without using all their weapons to protect themselves demonstrates an unfortunate level of ignorance.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
I think humanitarian aid is mostly useless, especially any aid that is being sent to any part of Africa where it most likely ends up in pockets of corrupt politicians or military leaders.

I assume that includes people receiving state care inside your own country.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
In the end it would be only good for the future of those countries.

Right. They die faster, lay rotting on the ground and all of Finland rejoices? Now I am more concerned about Finland than North Korea if you represent how kids are taught there these days.


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 100, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4917 times:

Good for Putin.

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 88):
You have? The data might be collected inadvertently, but even Greenwald admits that any data collected on Americans cannot be accessed without a warrant.

We've already seen how eager most of the courts in these matters are in rubber stamping government requests.

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 90):
When he went talking to pro-Beijing South China Morning Post about alleged US hacking activities against China.

I don't call that betraying his country. As Snowden so eloquently said in his 12 minute video, China and the US aren't really enemies. This is something that usually more conservative persons blather on about 'Red China' and all that old, tired nonsense.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29839 posts, RR: 58
Reply 101, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4862 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
Nah, without US backing both South Korea and Israel could be defeated using traditional weapons, no need for nuclear weapons I believe.

Israel if pushed hard enough would be willing to use their nukes IMHO.
South Korea I think would be able to handle the north. The North has great numbers but a hell of a lot of their equipment dates from the same era as the Korean War. It is slow, range limited and doesn't offer a lot of crew protection.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
we have managed to build one of the best societies in the world, a true welfare system. We did it through hard work

True welfare systems and hard work are mutually exclusive. Admitedly most of my knowledge of the Finish society come from that No Reservations episode they filmed up there a few years back. No I don't see myself going to a Sauna to let the "bad blood" out of me anytime soon.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
Maybe you simply haven't seen much of the world - physically seen it through travel - to understand what really goes on in the world.

That might be part of his issue.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 96):
We swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. We pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States. Neither of one these are the US Government.

Damm skippy. There have been may "leaders" in Washington that over the years I haven't been able to figure out why they shouldn't be considered a domestic enemy.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 96):
At most he is both a Patriot and a traitor.

Agreed, and I haven't made up my mind which one I consider him. It is hard to make an internal complant to change the system. From my knowledge of those internal complaint systems they are designed more to protect the management then to actually effect change.

quote=Flaps,reply=96]I don't support the current U.S Administration. I didn't vote for any of these people. Does that make me a traitor?[/quote]

In Obummers eyes....YES!!! In Holders eyes.....YES!!!!. In Reids eyes.....YES!!!!

Quoting Flaps (Reply 96):
Hopefully Snowden will be able to flip a few more birds at the administration as he works his way toward whatever his final destination will be

Honestly I think I would enjoy that too.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
Essentially what these spying programmes do is like the East German Stasi on steroids. The aim seems gto be to create a dossier on each and every citizen, with all savoury and not so savoury details included. The Stasi tried to do something like this, but got overwhelmed by the flood of data. But today´s computer capacities allow for the processing of such a waste amount of data.

That's is really the historical comparison that I am going with too.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 102, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4889 times:

Am I the only person to have found everything he had to say totally yawn-tastic? It really didn't tell me much, if anything, that I hadn't already assumed or guessed. Meh.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29839 posts, RR: 58
Reply 103, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4891 times:

Well, the information may be stuff we figured was going on already. But I do have to say that seeing Obummer and the current administration get blown off first by the Hong Kong and now the Russian government has been quite entertaining.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 104, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 103):
blown off first by the Hong Kong

Clerical error with name and passport number on the documents probably done by a civil servant.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 103):
now the Russian government has been quite entertaining

Snowden isn't legally in Russia. He's in international transit space.

It sounds like you enjoy your country looking foolish. These aren't partisan political issues. I would have expected you to feel more proud of your country.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 105, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 102):
Am I the only person to have found everything he had to say totally yawn-tastic? It really didn't tell me much, if anything, that I hadn't already assumed or guessed. Meh.

I'm with ya. I kinda see what he was trying to accomplish, but it kinda seems like he's stating the obvious. Of course, the partisan world we lived in sent most people in either the extreme pro-US 'murrica camp or the death to America camp. People just like getting worked up I guess

And just another side note, I think Putin's statement was pretty funny. I wonder what he would think if the guy was a Russian spreading Russian secrets. By all means, be pro-Snowden, but I have a very sneaking suspicion Putin is just sticking it to the US



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1256 posts, RR: 17
Reply 106, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4848 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 105):

President Putin's statement also had something to do with HOW the original "demand" was made. You can try to make those kinds of demands towards your wife in the bedroom, not towards sovereign states.
Should the original statement from the American side been in better tone, the answer would have been a polite "No" or possibly a "let's discuss this".
Foreign minister Lavrov's statement reflects this well.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineWSTAKL From New Zealand, joined Jun 2011, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4836 times:

Quoting Flaps (Reply 96):
He will likely just disappear or perhaps suffer a tragic accident or mystery illness.

Like this poor guy....

The revelation last week that Rolling Stone journalist Michael Hastings was working on a story about the CIA before his death and had contacted a Wikileaks lawyer about being under investigation by the FBI hours before his car exploded into flames has bolstered increasingly valid claims that the 33-year-old was also targeted as part of the crack down on those who are intent on exposing government secrets


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 108, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4828 times:
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Quoting L-188 (Reply 103):
Obummer and the current administration get blown off first by the Hong Kong and now the Russian government has been quite entertaining.

It was indeed.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 106):
President Putin's statement also had something to do with HOW the original "demand" was made.

Exactly. The way they went about it, particularly to someone like Putin, seemed like they were trying to get the opposite result. Beyond amazing. They managed to turn this serious issue into a battle of egos and nationalism. And we know how those things end up. Putin is going to try and extract a lot from the US to let Snowden go, and it´s shame, because he has nothing of value to get from Snowden

[Edited 2013-06-25 20:28:05]

User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4807 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
I assume that includes people receiving state care inside your own country.

Nah, that's just our welfare system which I support and we already pay high taxes for. Completely different thing from foreign development aid.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
Right. They die faster, lay rotting on the ground and all of Finland rejoices? Now I am more concerned about Finland than North Korea if you represent how kids are taught there these days.

Nah, without foreign money and food flooding those people in developing world would need to either start farming their food themselves if they want to survive. Of course not everyone would make it, but that's just nature. Many areas are way too overpopulated compared to how many people the current food production in those areas can truly support.

That's the only way I can see those countries can develop, by responding to demand which does not exist as long as western world floods the market with cheap or free food.

Of course things like vaccines, education about AIDS etc could be given, however that could be done by non profit third party organizations too.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 101):
True welfare systems and hard work are mutually exclusive.

Not around here at least. Most people rather work to be able to afford all kinds of nice things instead of just trying to live with welfare which gives you absolute minimum amount of money you need to survive in daily life with not many luxuries.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 110, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 109):
Nah, without foreign money and food flooding those people in developing world would need to either start farming their food themselves if they want to survive. Of course not everyone would make it, but that's just nature. Many areas are way too overpopulated compared to how many people the current food production in those areas can truly support.

Pardon me, but could you pollute some other thread with your repetitive rants about the U.S.? This thread is to talk about whether Snowden will be extradited from where ever he might be.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5740 posts, RR: 6
Reply 111, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 88):

You have? The data might be collected inadvertently, but even Greenwald admits that any data collected on Americans cannot be accessed without a warrant.

Irrelevant.

That's like saying the cops can just walk into your home, take your computer, and call it legal because they haven't accessed the files on the computer.

The 4th Amendment is quite clear about being secure in your effects, not just secure in the information contained in those effects.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 104):
Snowden isn't legally in Russia. He's in international transit space.

Let's assume I bought a ticket from HKG-SVO-IAD. Upon landing in SVO, and while in the transit area, I see someone I have beef with and beat him up. Do I get to walk away because I'm in "international transit space"? Not a chance.

It's just a formality to allow people to transit without getting a costly and time-consuming visa that they might not even qualify for. He is very much on Russian soil and subject to Russian law. If they wanted to arrest him, they absolutely could.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 112, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 111):
Upon landing in SVO, and while in the transit area, I see someone I have beef with and beat him up. Do I get to walk away because I'm in "international transit space"? Not a chance.

What crime is Snowden committing by having his presence in the transit lounge between flights?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5740 posts, RR: 6
Reply 113, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4765 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 112):
What crime is Snowden committing by having his presence in the transit lounge between flights?

I was refuting your assertion that Russia couldn't touch him, because he's not "legally in Russia". He is legally on Russian soil, albeit in a secured transit zone.

Russia is not leaving him alone because he's "not legally in Russia", they're leaving him alone because they either don't care or just want to stick it to the Yanks.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 110):
Pardon me, but could you pollute some other thread with your repetitive rants about the U.S.? This thread is to talk about whether Snowden will be extradited from where ever he might be.

Yea yea sorry about off topic, from now on I will discuss only about things directly related to Snowden whenever I reply to this thread.

[Edited 2013-06-25 23:12:57]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3516 posts, RR: 3
Reply 115, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 112):
What crime is Snowden committing by having his presence in the transit lounge between flights?

It is no accident that he went first to China and the to Russia. Former KGB chief said yesterday that KGB would never pass on such opportunity.


User currently offlineblueflyer From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jan 2006, 4186 posts, RR: 2
Reply 116, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4753 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 104):
Snowden isn't legally in Russia. He's in international transit space.

Legally speaking, there is no "international transit space." He is in an area where the enforcement of immigration laws is effectively suspended for the convenience of passengers in transit, but it isn't a lawless area.

If Russia wanted to cooperate with the US, they would have long ago arrested him for being in Russia illegally and began extradition proceedings, whether or not he had remained in the transit area.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 117, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4750 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 112):
What crime is Snowden committing by having his presence in the transit lounge between flights?

In normal circumstances, provided he abides by the normal rules for transit without a visa, none. If he stays beyond the maximum permitted stay or fails to leave on the next available aircraft, without approaching immigration and requesting asylum, he could be detained despite not having "technically entered the country." But, according to information on the web site of the Russian Embassy a special transit visa is required for anyone staying more than 24 hours in the transit zone. By now, assuming that Snowden hasn't left the airport, he has been there longer than the 24 hours and can be detained.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 113):
Russia is not leaving him alone because he's "not legally in Russia", they're leaving him alone because they either don't care or just want to stick it to the Yanks.

Apart from there being no extradition treaty between the USA and Russia, in my opinion you are correct. The authorities of any country can arrest and detain any individual in an airport in their territory if they believe the person is committing/ has committed an offence, is a fugitive from justice for whom an international arrest warrant is current and where the country is party to international agreements, either bilateral or multilateral in scope. A transit zone is not "terra nullis". The laws of the country in which it is located still apply.

[Edited 2013-06-25 23:43:12]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 118, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days ago) and read 4726 times:

You know, folks, sometimes one must look at a situation without pedantry. The point of my reply to L-188 was that Snowden hadn't, from all reports, requested entry into Russia, so there was no issue for Russia to act upon. Heck, last I read, the U.S. hadn't even issued a red notice to Interpol.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7815 posts, RR: 3
Reply 119, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4662 times:

Listening to the US Govt, it seems that if an FSB Officer had gone AWOL, and turned up at JFK, then they would put him on the next plane to Moscow.

Really?.


User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4625 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 119):

Listening to the US Govt, it seems that if an FSB Officer had gone AWOL, and turned up at JFK, then they would put him on the next plane to Moscow.

Really?.

I don't think the Russians would hesitate to "silence" such an officer.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1256 posts, RR: 17
Reply 121, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4515 times:

I am pretty sure that by now he is in Russia as a refugee (unhcr always complains about our 90% rejection rate - maybe it just went down   ) or he is wherever he was planning on going.


I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinerlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1108 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (1 year 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 4403 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
My country didn't take any Marshall aid after WW2

I would think not. Your country killed thousands in concentration camps and sided with Hitler. Your country had to pay war reparations, not recieve them.



I can drive faster than you
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9752 posts, RR: 31
Reply 123, posted (1 year 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 112):
What crime is Snowden committing by having his presence in the transit lounge between flights?

Not a crime, but the regulation is that a transit passenger without visa can stay a maximum of 24 hours in the transit lounge. Could not happen in the US, they don't encourage transit, except to NZ.. I am sure that, if weather delays happen, the Russians won't make a fuss about it. But this guy really becomes a problem for them.

The US has revoked his passport meaning he cannot legally exit on a flight to a destination of his choice. Even Cuba or Ecuador will have to undergo a process of issuing documents to him.

For Russia he is a hot potatoe. They are obviously not interested in him, he likely doesn't know anything they don't know already and they also know how they would handle a traitor. Looks like they have really little sympathy with Snowden.

Cuba remains very silent and even Ecuador is not very enthusistic. Would he be a free man there if granted asylum? I doubt that very much. He brought himself into that position and who wants to have a traitor walk around uncontrolled for the rest of his life? . Who guarantees him that he won't be "accidentally" walked on a DL flight back home? Who in Europe would accept him?

Like for Mr. Assange, life does not have a lot of options for Mr. Snowden but then you have to be aware of that when starting to work for a company with the intention to steal critical data.

.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 124, posted (1 year 6 months 21 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 123):
Who in Europe would accept him?

France? Would not surprise me one bit.

[Edited 2013-06-27 03:54:59]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9752 posts, RR: 31
Reply 125, posted (1 year 6 months 21 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

France? Maybe but Hollande will not be President de la Republique once he finished his term and IIRC France is an active member of NATO again and that is something even a Socialist cannot deny . I've seen once in Chicago when the US military police arrested a German draft dodger ina freight forwarders office and put him straight on the evening fight to FRA.

Possible, but very doubtful.

Much more likely that the Russians take a cigarette break and suddenly Snowden is on board of a Delta flight.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 126, posted (1 year 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 123):
Not a crime, but the regulation is that a transit passenger without visa can stay a maximum of 24 hours in the transit lounge.

I would have to dig it out of my browser history, but I thought I read that Snowden's refugee visa was good for three days. Anything longer would land him in trouble. But then it comes down to what does Russia want to do with him, and whether an airline will carry him out if Ecuador or another country doesn't step up with new travel documents.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 year 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 122):
I would think not. Your country killed thousands in concentration camps and sided with Hitler. Your country had to pay war reparations, not recieve them.

What that has to do with anything? We were offered Marshall aid but because taking it would have damaged our Soviet relations we did not accept the offer. If you didn't notice many countries that fought on axis side received it.

Concentration camps? We had only camps for captured enemy soldiers similar to what allies had, not anything that would have been used to intentionally kill people. We sided with Nazis because that was for us the only way to survive against soviets, or are you saying that life under Stalin's rule would have been better option?

I think you need to read some history. And sorry for off topic, just had to reply to this one as nothing particularly interesting seems to be going with Snowden at the moment.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9752 posts, RR: 31
Reply 128, posted (1 year 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 4277 times:

.....except that Ecuador has cancelled a trade agreement with the US, "irrevocably" they say.

Wow, that will really hurt Uncle Sam, they might go bananas over it.

Wait a minute? Bananas? Isn't that what Ecuador is exporting together with flowers and other agricultural stuff and whch they now may have to feed to the pigs? AFAIK the EU has quotas, due to the French who produce bananas in their overseas territories.

Sarcasm on the side, that president of Ecuador is nuts, he is hiurting his own people just for some guy sitting in the transit lounge at SVO. What good is Snowden for Ecuador (and Assange) except boosting that presidents ego?

This is politics against the own population, typical for dictators.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12597 posts, RR: 34
Reply 129, posted (1 year 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 4265 times:

My guess is that the Russians are using some pretty aggressive psychological tactics with ES, to see if they can sweat information out of him and if he doesn't comply, he'll be on the next flight to JFK. They know how to exert pressure to achieve a desired result and since ES needs them far more than they need ES, I think that they can incentivise co-operation. It would not surprise me in the least if ES provided information to the Russians in exchange for not being deported straight to the US.

Regardless of what is said publicly, the Russians know that they have just had a very unexpected bonus dropped on their laps and they're not about to let that go without squeezing it for all its worth and even if they do get information from him, there's no guarantee that they will let him go to Ecuador anyway.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 130, posted (1 year 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 4257 times:
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Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 124):
France? Would not surprise me one bit.

At this point, the only countries that would accept him are those that used to be called "rogue states"

Quoting kaitak (Reply 129):
My guess is that the Russians are using some pretty aggressive psychological tactics with ES

I don´t think there´s any more info. to get from him. The only reason they´ve not returned him is because how they were asked.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 63):
What is the right way to go on then? USA doesn't give options, because there are no options.

And three days on, how´s that working out?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 131, posted (1 year 6 months 16 hours ago) and read 4254 times:

Obama refuses to barter for Edward Snowden

Quote:
President Barack Obama has said there will be no "wheeling and dealing" as part of extradition attempts against US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden.

Speaking on a visit to the West African nation of Senegal, Mr Obama said the case would be handled through routine legal channels.

"I am not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker," he added.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4241 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 129):
My guess is that the Russians are using some pretty aggressive psychological tactics with ES, to see if they can sweat information out of him and if he doesn't comply, he'll be on the next flight to JFK

We're not talking about a hardened CIA operative here. Snowden lived in Hawaii on a 200k/yr salary and has clearly showed a willingness to spill secrets. He would instead probably beg them to listen to what he knows for political asylum in return.



Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 131):
"I am not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker," he added.

Which leaves drones on the table. I would look to the sky more often if I were ES  



Cha brro
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 133, posted (1 year 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 132):
So he didn't rule out drones then

Or perhaps a tactical nuclear strike on the transit area of the airport?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 134):
Or perhaps a tactical nuclear strike on the transit area of the airport?

Also and effective option, although I was trying to minimize collateral damage to Snowden only. Kidding of course...



Cha brro
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3190 posts, RR: 3
Reply 135, posted (1 year 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 129):

Regardless of what is said publicly, the Russians know that they have just had a very unexpected bonus dropped on their laps and they're not about to let that go without squeezing it for all its worth and even if they do get information from him, there's no guarantee that they will let him go to Ecuador anyway

Putin is not going to publicly let Snowden go anywhere until he gets through jerking Obama.
Pretty obvious from Putin's statements.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 132):
He would probably beg them to listen to what he has to know to keep him from coming back to the US.


That seems to be the problem, we are not sure what information he has. I think the Obama administration only knows what information that he might have had access but not exactly what he has. He may only have porn sites that have been charged on the government credit cards for all we know.

Okie


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (1 year 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):
Sarcasm on the side, that president of Ecuador is nuts, he is hiurting his own people just for some guy sitting in the transit lounge at SVO. What good is Snowden for Ecuador (and Assange) except boosting that presidents ego?

This is politics against the own population, typical for dictators.

Nah, rather he's a man with courage who believes in equality and justice instead of being a pig doing whatever United States wants him to do (like so many other leaders are). If more leaders actually had courage to hold on their ideas instead of acting against them for economical or political gains world could be a much better place than it is now.

I admire him just like I admire all the Cubans who haven't given up but have stood with their beliefs instead of dancing to US government's tune. Ecuador has democracy anyway, their people are free to vote someone else in power if they rather want to have some US puppet president.

If I was Cuban or maybe someone from Ecuador simply knowing that my country is on the good side against the great evil would make me so happy that any economical troubles maybe caused by Anti-US policies wouldn't matter. Courage and honour are the two true virtues. People like Assange and Snowden are good examples for any decent people about how one should fight for what he/she truly believes in.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 137, posted (1 year 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 136):
Nah, rather he's a man with courage who believes in equality and justice instead of being a pig doing whatever United States wants him to do (like so many other leaders are).

Pardon me, but could you pollute some other thread with your repetitive rants about the U.S.? This thread is to talk about whether Snowden will be extradited from where ever he might be.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (1 year 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 4193 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 137):
Pardon me, but could you pollute some other thread with your repetitive rants about the U.S.? This thread is to talk about whether Snowden will be extradited from where ever he might be.

My post relates to Snowden case just as much as many others about Ecuador, whether Snowden is a traitor or not etc. Most of the posts do not seem to be concentrated around whether Snowden will be extradited or not.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3190 posts, RR: 3
Reply 139, posted (1 year 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 4184 times:

Ecuador turned away favorable trade agreements to make an offer to Snowden, not sure Snowden has accepted offer yet.
Another in your face blow to the present administration.

Okie


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 140, posted (1 year 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 136):

What are you talking about? Do you know how silly you sound? There is being critical of US policies, then there is this make believe American evil empire monster you conceived in your mind... what are they teaching over there in Finland? I used to have a high regard for their education system

How has Snowden done anything for the common good besides "not dancing to the tune of evil America?" Sure he had the balls (or lack of brains) to do what he did but he's told us nothing interesting or new. Not sure if he was truly for freedom or he wanted his 15 minutes of fame. If he had something groundbreaking that the entire world didn't already know/highly highly suspect, I'd maybe buy in to his "freedom" notion...

Anyway, is having his passport revoked making it more difficult to get out of Russia or just into new countries? I would think a country that wants to harbor him could receive him and work some magic and not worry about a revoked passport. If Putin wasn't so shady, I might actually believe he cared about Snowden, but it reeks of his usual 'sticking it to the West' attitude



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (1 year 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 4166 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 140):
What are you talking about? Do you know how silly you sound? There is being critical of US policies, then there is this make believe American evil empire monster you conceived in your mind... what are they teaching over there in Finland? I used to have a high regard for their education system

To me the US involvement in various conflicts, corrupting elections, destroying legitimate governments, supporting various terrorist groups since WW2 are enough to make me think US government as a big evil monster indeed, it's just unbelievable how much bad in so many different places US government / military involvement has caused, just amount of different cases listed in one great book called "Rogue State" which I read a while ago is astonishing.

Of course some of those are related to cold war and soviets did the same on smaller scale. However It's just unacceptable how United States still keeps doing the very same thing in this modern world, even offering safe place to stay for terrorists like Luis Posada Carriles who bombed down a Cubana DC-8 jetliner in the 70's and participated in many other terrorist attacks. As long as this stuff continues I can't just be critical of their policies but also see the US government as the biggest evil in this world and a threat to world peace.

Anyway I think what Snowden did was important as it finally proved all the shady spying US government is doing all around the world, even if was widely known before now with concrete evidence nobody can even claim otherwise.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 142, posted (1 year 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 141):
Anyway I think what Snowden did was important as it finally proved all the shady spying US government is doing all around the world, even if was widely known before now with concrete evidence nobody can even claim otherwise.

It is done by every country. Now I'm not too keen on all these political games played but really, is any citizen in any country benefiting at all? Is any government going about anything differently (besides the US trying to stop leaks?) Name one good change that has resulted. This story is really a non-story, though it is interesting seeing the big governments playing silly games over it. (And I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, it's just that it's for another thread and I think you are taking all the evils of the US from the past and pretending they're all there in the present. Tone down the bias)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 143, posted (1 year 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 4144 times:
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Quoting pvjin (Reply 136):
Nah, rather he's a man with courage who believes in equality and justice

I would like to know your position on freedom of expression.

Quoting okie (Reply 139):
Ecuador turned away favorable trade agreements to make an offer to Snowden, not sure Snowden has accepted offer yet.

Snowden was the one who asked Ecuador.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 144, posted (1 year 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 138):
Most of the posts do not seem to be concentrated around whether Snowden will be extradited or not.

I'm fairly certain that the Snowden story has some legs to it, so there's interest in keeping it open. It's too bad that people put their political aims before the interests of others and the forum, leading to where the moderators might have to take over and we find ourselves in the same situation referenced in this thread:

Reference Post Deletions (by DeltaMD90 May 30 2013 in Site Related)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3190 posts, RR: 3
Reply 145, posted (1 year 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 143):
Snowden was the one who asked Ecuador

  
Then the Obama administration threatened Ecuador with loss of favorable trade agreements if they accepted Snowden.

Then Ecuador countered back that they would take Snowden, the loss of favorable trade agreements, and offered $23M in aid to the US for "education about human rights"

So far it is all in your face rhetoric from Putin and Ecuador.

Some speculation that Snowden would be transferred to Ecuador via Venezuela but I really have no earthly idea.

Okie


User currently offlineSoJo From UK - England, joined Nov 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (1 year 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 4085 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 140):


What are you talking about? Do you know how silly you sound? There is being critical of US policies, then there is this make believe American evil empire monster you conceived in your mind... what are they teaching over there in Finland? I used to have a high regard for their education system

Of course, the Americans are always right in what they say.

We are all speculating on him flying out of Russia. Don't they have cars, buses and more importantly trains over there?



RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 147, posted (1 year 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Snowden is a horrible human being. He needs to be demonized immediately. According to Obama he single handedly turned over all of our surveillance secrets to the Chinese. And this happened just about the time Obama was sitting with the head of China with Obama telling him that the U.S. doesn't do these kinds of things.

I predict that Snowden will end up dead somewhere under mysterious circumstances. Maybe today, maybe years from now. But I do feel it will happen.

Let the demonization begin! After all he has put us ALL in danger!


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3190 posts, RR: 3
Reply 148, posted (1 year 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

Quoting SoJo (Reply 146):
We are all speculating on him flying out of Russia. Don't they have cars, buses and more importantly trains over there

I will speculate that Putin will honor "inflight transistion" part of international law pertaining to the airport itself.
He will fly out but as to where or when is the question.

Right now I am getting the impression that the longer he stays there the more it irritates Obama and the better Putin likes it.
That is my opinion for what ever that is worth.

Okie


User currently offlineSoJo From UK - England, joined Nov 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (1 year 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 4075 times:
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Quoting okie (Reply 148):
Right now I am getting the impression that the longer he stays there the more it irritates Obama and the better Putin likes it.
That is my opinion for what ever that is worth.

It is worth a lot okie. You are on the right track about the whole situation. USA (pretending to be miffed) knows that it, along with the regualr cohorts have been caught out. They are worried, no doubt about it. It's not about the man but saving face. Red faces all round?



RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 150, posted (1 year 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

I must say I was pretty impressed by Ecuador canceling the preferential trade agreement on their own. That must have raised some eyebrows at the US administration. In the end, using the (totally unrelated) matters of trade agreements and asylum is some sort of blackmail (or bribe, whichever you prefer). Think what you may about the Ecuadorian government (I personally don't think too much of them), but putting a stop to the possibility to bribe/blackmail on their own account is a very straight and respectable thing to do. Hopefully they'll find other lucrative markets for their flowers and crude oil.


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 151, posted (1 year 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 4071 times:
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Quoting SoJo (Reply 146):
Don't they have cars, buses and more importantly trains over there?

They do. Tough to cross the Atlantic on those though.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 147):
Snowden is a horrible human being. He needs to be demonized immediately.

If I didn´t know you I would have thought you were being serious.

Quoting Rara (Reply 150):
I must say I was pretty impressed by Ecuador canceling the preferential trade agreement on their own.

It might be impressive but the only ones hurt by this are the Ecuadoreans. The government could care less. They can still go on their shopping trips to Miami. Correa wants to be the next Chavez in the region and screw the general population.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 152, posted (1 year 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 4034 times:

Quoting SoJo (Reply 146):
Of course, the Americans are always right in what they say.

Oh trust me, I completely do not think that. I am quite displeased at a lot that is done, we can PM if you want. I just don't think Snowden accomplished anything at all. None of us are freer, the US isn't changing much policy (minus how they handle leaks and secure data,) etc regardless of how great his intentions were. Not gonna champion him even though I'm for exposing injustices because, really, he was just stupid (he got in a ton of trouble for nothing to show for it)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinethesultanofwing From El Salvador, joined Dec 2012, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 153, posted (1 year 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 3987 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 151):
The government could care less.

Going by the context, I guess you mean "couldn't care less".

Quoting AR385 (Reply 151):

It might be impressive but the only ones hurt by this are the Ecuadoreans.

How true!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):

This is politics against the own population, typical for dictators.

Sadly, he was chosen by a large majority the last few elections in a row!
He promised this would be his last term.......but my family over there do not believe him for 1 bit!



I feel like the A318 at times: I am probably worth more parted out than as a whole.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9752 posts, RR: 31
Reply 154, posted (1 year 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 3984 times:

Quoting SoJo (Reply 146):
We are all speculating on him flying out of Russia. Don't they have cars, buses and more importantly trains over there?

technically Snowden is not in Russia, he has not crossed the border yet and likely never will.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 151):
It might be impressive but the only ones hurt by this are the Ecuadoreans. The government could care less. They can still go on their shopping trips to Miami. Correa wants to be the next Chavez in the region and screw the general population

have said that before, the only ones getting screwed by this "heroic" move are the average Ecuatorians, they have to pay more for goods coming from the USA and they lose jobs because they cannot export goods to the USA. What the US shpould do mis revoke visas for all Ecuatorian government officials and high ranking bureaucrats. Let them shop in the malls of Havanna.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 155, posted (1 year 6 months ago) and read 3971 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 154):
technically Snowden is not in Russia, he has not crossed the border yet and likely never will.

Funnily enough, there was some speculation as to where Snowden actually is. Although Putin stated that he was in the transit zone, Sergei Lavrov (Russia's Foreign Minister) stated that Snowden "did not cross the Russian border" but has not commented on whether he is at the airport. Mr Lavrov is widely regarded as a man whose words mean what they say and that he would not tell a lie, and an indication can often be gained from what he did not say.

This gave rise to speculation in some media (including the Guardian) that Snowden may have left the airport without going through immigration. It was suggested that he may have left in an unmarked vehicle and made his way to some foreign embassy while travel documents can be arranged. The speculation was fueled by there having been no confirmed sighting of Snowden by any of the journalists that have been in the airport since Sunday.

They seek him here, they seek him there,
The elusive Edward Snowden ...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9752 posts, RR: 31
Reply 156, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3950 times:

Journalists would need to buy a ticket to enter the transit area and even then might not be able to get where Snowden could be. Such transit zones are pretty safe areas for hiding and if Lavrov says that S. has not crossed the Russian border he essentially confirms that the guy is stuck at SVO.


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7815 posts, RR: 3
Reply 157, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3933 times:

It seems to me that many responses are based on expediency and the almighty $.

Surely, things like integrity, principles and doing what is right count for something.

IIRC, the founding principles of the US involved freedom, and a hatred of tyrants.

Now your government snoops of everyone, and tells you that it is none of your business.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9752 posts, RR: 31
Reply 158, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 157):
Now your government snoops of everyone, and tells you that it is none of your business.

eehhh, begging 'yer pardon, yours as well. And your Government even told mine to bugg off when they complained about it.

People willing to trade freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

Now let is hope that our elected governments just use their findings from surveillance on the bad guys and the good guys are not assumed bad guys.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6611 posts, RR: 35
Reply 159, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3840 times:
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Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 155):
Funnily enough, there was some speculation as to where Snowden actually is.

He is in a room, in an airport hotel at Sheremetyevo. I wouldn´t know which one though.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 160, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3834 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 154):
technically Snowden is not in Russia, he has not crossed the border yet and likely never will.

That is such a myth. The transit area at Sheremetevo most certainly IS Russian soil, he just hasn't formally been granted permission to enter the country. The laws of Russia extend to all parts of the airport. This nonsense suggesting that transit areas are some kind of magical legal limbo is complete bunk. They are merely areas where parts of immigration control are suspended.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 161, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 160):
This nonsense suggesting that transit areas are some kind of magical legal limbo is complete bunk.

It doesn't really matter though, what matters is how the laws are applied. Putin is already on the record as saying he won't turn Snowden over to the U.S., so it's convenient for the Russian gov't to claim that Snowden hasn't entered Russia yet.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 162, posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 161):
It doesn't really matter though, what matters is how the laws are applied. Putin is already on the record as saying he won't turn Snowden over to the U.S., so it's convenient for the Russian gov't to claim that Snowden hasn't entered Russia yet.

Of course that's right, yes. I'm just amazed that some people seem to take that as meaning that no law can be applied there....



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 163, posted