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Will George Zimmerman Walk?  
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5515 times:

As the trial starts today, testing Florida's "stand your ground law" George Zimmerman needs to prove that un armed Trayvon Martin, threatened him to the point that deadly force was needed. No witnesses, just Zimmermans word. If he is found not guilty will we see riots like when the police accused of beating Rodney King? Will Zimmerman be found guilty of a lesser charge?

237 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5507 times:

Since we have not heard actual factual evidence, and most of us will never hear it,

we will never know if Zimmerman is quilty or not.

Only the jury's decision will give us and indication.

And certainly anything we hear on the news channels will be polished, massaged and tweaked to appeal to segments of the audience of that channel. So what we hear from them will be a lot closer to fiction than fact.

One thing

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
George Zimmerman needs to prove that un armed Trayvon Martin, threatened him to the point that deadly force was needed.

George Zimmerman, or rather Zimmerman's lawyers, do not need to prove a thing. The LAW says Zimmerman is presumed to be innocent unless the Prosecution proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted unlawfully when shooting Martin.

Also, an actual threat is not required in most states, only actions which could appear to be a threat to a reasonable person.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5649 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5453 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
As the trial starts today, testing Florida's "stand your ground law"

The law is not on trial, Zimmerman is. The stand-your-ground law is quite secure.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
No witnesses, just Zimmermans word.

Actually, there were numerous witnesses.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
If he is found not guilty will we see riots like when the police accused of beating Rodney King?

Not on that level. There might be a little brouhaha in some lower-class neighborhoods in Florida (no matter what the verdict is), but most everyone else has settled down.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
Since we have not heard actual factual evidence, and most of us will never hear it,

Seeing as the trial is televised, we'll here exactly what the jury hears.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
George Zimmerman, or rather Zimmerman's lawyers, do not need to prove a thing. The LAW says Zimmerman is presumed to be innocent unless the Prosecution proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted unlawfully when shooting Martin.

Actually, I believe this falls under an affirmative defense. Zimmerman has to show that he was not doing anything illegal prior to being attacked, and that he (as a reasonable person) felt he was in danger of death or grievous bodily harm.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5445 times:

Riots could possibly happen but I don't see them happening in Sanford.

With the jury that's been selected, its pretty hard to tell how this could turn out considering they're all women.


User currently offlinekpitrrat From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
George Zimmerman needs to prove that un armed Trayvon Martin, threatened him to the point that deadly force was needed.

Forgive me as I am not from Florida, every state has their own quirks. But, in order to utilize the "stand your ground law" is the burden of proof on the defense to prove that the force was necessary?

Or is the burden on the prosecution to show that Zimmernan was not threatened?

I only ask because the Beyond a Reasonable Doubt facet of pronouncing someone guilty is not easy to overcome, thats what I believe got Anthony off on the murder charge; sad, but its the law. Witness testimony will be extremely important.

Edit: I just saw rfields post. Still I will leave the question up because, as I said, all states are different.

[Edited 2013-06-24 20:36:04]

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Will Zimmerman be found guilty of a lesser charge?

He will be found innocent. NRA will hire lawyers to make sure of it. They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out. Zimmerman was told to stand down. He did not. Yet, he will walk free. And not have to pay Trayvon's family one dime. Mark my words.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2413 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

Everybody who just has shot somebody in a dark alley in the middle of the night will point to the Zimmerman trial in order to avoid prison. The jury has to think about the consequences.

There is a little quirk in this whole situation:

a) Zimmerman says his life was in danger. So, he should be lucky to receive a prison sentence instead of losing his own life during that night.

b) Zimmerman says he wasn't in danger. So he should accept hefty prison sentence for murdering Trayvon Martin.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):

I believe - but I'm not completely sure - that your reasoning is flawed. I know that innocence is presumed. The prosecution claims that Martin was unlawfully killed (and thinks that a crime has happened), so the prosecutor has to prove Zimmerman's guilt. Here, we talk about the act of the crime.

But Zimmerman's mental processes (deciding whether Martin is a danger to his life or not) can't be a crime - because there is no law that says it would be a crime to assume danger to your life - and so, in the real "crime scene", Zimmerman's mind, the assumption of innocence cannot kick in. Zimmerman has to prove that his life was in danger. That's the pivotal point of the whole trial.

Otherwise, the "stand your ground laws" would entitle everybody to kill somebody else in a dark alley in the middle of the night when no witnesses are around.

The goverment has not only a duty to keep innocents out of the prisons, but it has an equal or an even more important duty: Protecting the lives of innocents. Otherwise, the "stand your ground laws" put the burden of proof on those that are dead and cannot defend themselves in court.


David

[Edited 2013-06-25 01:26:34]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5232 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2):
Seeing as the trial is televised, we'll here exactly what the jury hears.

Yes, however we will hear a lot of information the jury will not hear. Almost everything we hear will be 'analyzed' by the television commentators. What we see and hear from a televised trial is not what the jury sees and hears. It is not the information the jury must use to decide guilty or not guilty.

And the other part of my views - will any of us watch the ENTIRE live coverage? What will those interested in the case miss?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Otherwise, the "stand your ground laws" put the burden of proof on those that are dead and cannot defend themselves in court.

That is exactly what the framers of such laws want to occur - at least here in Texas. I do not see anything to say that the intent of the Florida legislature was different.

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 4):
thats what I believe got Anthony off on the murder charge

The jurors in the Anthony case said the problem with the prosecution case was that the state was unable to prove that the child was murdered. Unable to prove the explicit action, intentional or unintentional, caused the death of the little girl. Nor was the prosecution able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey Anthony was the only person who could have caused her death.

At least in this case, proving that Martin died of a bullet wound will not be difficult or questioned. Nor will proving Zimmerman was the person who fired the gun.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2413 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
At least in this case, proving that Martin died of a bullet wound will not be difficult or questioned. Nor will proving Zimmerman was the person who fired the gun.

As I've read, Zimmerman was under way in his car when he suspected Martin of wrongdoing and called the police. At this very moment, he could have driven away, seeing the danger. If you felt safe and secure, you wouldn't call the police.

But he decided to leave his car and approach Martin, and a fight ensued. I can't see how the "stand your ground" principle would work in this case. As soon as he perceived the danger, he should have stayed in his car and used his "stand your ground" rights *there*.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8280 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5169 times:

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 3):
its pretty hard to tell how this could turn out considering they're all women.

If all of those women are mothers then there is the leverage of "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy/"

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Yet, he will walk free. And not have to pay Trayvon's family one dime.

OJ walked free from the criminal trial and got hit with an $8 Million judgement from a civil jury, Two different legal systems, with the burden of proof far lower on the civil side,.

As a side note, say OJ's prosecutor on TV the other night (CNN I believe) and she looked pretty good.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5161 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
As I've read, Zimmerman was under way in his car when he suspected Martin of wrongdoing and called the police. At this very moment, he could have driven away, seeing the danger. If you felt safe and secure, you wouldn't call the police.

IIRC it has been argued that he called the police to cover his ass in case a fight ensued (not saying in case he shot somebody). Indeed he certainly didn't listen to what the operator was saying. Don't forget he was on a "watch".



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5649 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5115 times:

Yet another thread where people feel entitled to their own facts.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out.

Oh please. There's no way to tell who was screaming based on the 911 tape.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Zimmerman was told to stand down.

He was not. You must have missed the part where the 911 operator testified, under oath, that they are not allowed to give orders, and that he indeed did not give an order to stand down.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
If you felt safe and secure, you wouldn't call the police.

Um, you call the police when you suspect a crime is being committed, or when there's a car accident on a public road (as required by law).

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):

But he decided to leave his car and approach Martin, and a fight ensued. I can't see how the "stand your ground" principle would work in this case.

Because he was walking back towards his car, when Martin approached him.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5064 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
If all of those women are mothers then there is the leverage of "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy/"

At the same time, women can also be pretty hardcore on juries.

For example, a lawyer speaking to us in my Federal Court Practice class last semester said that in rape cases he's had jury consultants tell him that a big, macho guy is a horrible juror to have for the prosecution because they, on a jury, want to protect women. A woman, on the other hand, especially one in the 35-55 range, will be cold-blooded about things and use the thinking that the victim was at fault.

Now, that could all be wrong, but I am just throwing that out there as something I was told. *shrug*



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7914 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5044 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
He will be found innocent. NRA will hire lawyers to make sure of it. They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out. Zimmerman was told to stand down. He did not. Yet, he will walk free. And not have to pay Trayvon's family one dime. Mark my words.

Ironically, in fighting "far right bias" you're embodying far left bias. Not every decision you disagree with is because of the evil right's fault. I know you get mad when a judge rules and the right screams that the judge is a liberal activist judge, so why do you do the same in reverse?

You aren't on the jury, none of us are, so we have to tread carefully and not make ignorant statements. If he walks and you don't think he should, attack the stand your ground law. The jury may very well agree that he met those requirements... even if you hate the law, do you want him in jail just because you think the law is BS?

Always keep an eye out for corruption, but don't chase boogey men either. It's perfectly plausible for him to walk and there NOT be any "NRA lobbyist influence dollars" or whatever



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7176 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
If he is found not guilty will we see riots like when the police accused of beating Rodney King

Maybe. Spoke with some Miami-Dade police officers and the Miami-Dade Police Dept is preparing for possible riots. Talking to them they think there is a fairly good chance Zimmer is acquitted. I agree.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
NRA will hire lawyers to make sure of it.

He has already hired his lawyers. What are you talking about?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out.

You do know the JUDGE is the one who decides what gets in and what gets out. Is the judge part of the NRA scheme?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Zimmerman was told to stand down. He did not.

911 operators have zero authority. No one needs to listen to them. So he was not told to "stand down." Where do people get this stuff.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
But he decided to leave his car and approach Martin, and a fight ensued. I can't see how the "stand your ground" principle would work in this case. As soon as he perceived the danger, he should have stayed in his car and used his "stand your ground" rights *there*.

Pretty sure his story is he was going back to his car and Martin attacked him.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
If all of those women are mothers then there is the leverage of "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy/"

That might be what the prosecutors had in mind but the defense attorneys also picked this jury sure there are good reasons for both sides. But the prosecution would never say, "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy." Easy grounds for a mistrial.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 12):
A woman, on the other hand, especially one in the 35-55 range, will be cold-blooded about things and use the thinking that the victim was at fault.

I would put that range a bit higher 45+ But I agree, especially when it pertains to young women who were abused sexually.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Everybody who just has shot somebody in a dark alley in the middle of the night will point to the Zimmerman trial in order to avoid prison. The jury has to think about the consequences.

That could not be anymore wrong. That is the absolute last thing the jury needs to think about and if any juror starts thinking about that they need to tell the judge and recuse themselves from the jury.

If any of the lawyers mentioned something like that. To think about the consequences of other cases it would be an easy mistrial and they would have to start all over again. Jurors should and need to only worry about the one case in front of them and absolutely nothing else. Legal precedent is what the lawyers and judges can worry about later.

Also that is not how the criminal system works. You don't point to other trials to show your case. You can for things such as evidence motions and what not but when it comes to if you have done it or not it is the evidence of your case and nothing else.

I see it 50/50 from what I have heard which I will say is almost nothing, but lets just assume I know all the correct facts I have doubt so I am letting him go. I have a feeling the doubt will be there and he will be acquitted.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

Zimmerman must be regretting his choice of representation after the opening statements yesterday. I facepalmed pretty hard when Don West decided he wanted to be a stand-up comedian at a murder trial. If you're going to attempt a joke, at least make sure it's funny...

Video of the "joke": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LRSJGFoXEY

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
Yet another thread where people feel entitled to their own facts.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
Because he was walking back towards his car, when Martin approached him.

You couldn't even go an entire post without doing the exact thing you accuse other people of doing!

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
911 operators have zero authority. No one needs to listen to them. So he was not told to "stand down." Where do people get this stuff.
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.


Source: http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

The operators don't have any authority, and he definitely didn't say the exact words "stand down", but it was certainly communicated to Zimmerman that it's not a good idea to follow the kid, and he in fact ignored that suggestion. Nobody in this thread has said that the 911 operator said the exact words of "stand down", so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
But the prosecution would never say, "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy." Easy grounds for a mistrial.

   At the very least the jury would be instructed to disregard the comment and that it be stricken.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I know you get mad when a judge rules and the right screams that the judge is a liberal activist judge, so why do you do the same in reverse?

  



Flying refined.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5006 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
He will be found innocent. NRA will hire lawyers to make sure of it

Dude the NRA is not paying for his lawyers. To make that comment just makes you look like a raving left wing lunatic. And frankly is suggest that we can't have a reasonable conversation with you.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out.

The tapes got thrown out because the "experts" couldn't figure out what was on them. Or if the quality was even good enough for them to make informed testimony.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
Yes, however we will hear a lot of information the jury will not hear. Almost everything we hear will be 'analyzed' by the television commentators.



Its been that since day one. Remember the media would only show photos of the dead punk back when he was 13-14-15. You know before that puberty growth spurt that everyone hits. The public perception of him would be a lot different if they had used the photos that where found of him smoking pot, flashing gang signs that where on his facebook page.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Talking to them they think there is a fairly good chance Zimmer is acquitted. I agree.

I hope your right, but the prosecutor and the Martin family have been trying to throw this case ever since that night. Emotionally I can't blame them but their case is based on emotion not fact.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5649 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
Nobody in this thread has said that the 911 operator said the exact words of "stand down"

Might want to go and reread:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Zimmerman was told to stand down.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4991 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
the dead punk

Speaking ill of the dead: a sign of a person who lacks any decency.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
The public perception of him would be a lot different if they had used the photos that where found of him smoking pot, flashing gang signs that where on his facebook page.

Stop watching MSNBC then. I've seen numerous news outlets from both Canada and the US showing a wide range of pictures, from him as a young teen, to his football pictures, to Facebook pictures of him taken only weeks before his death.

Also, wouldn't the public perception also be skewed if they only showed the unsavoury pictures of Martin? Hell, you'll find several dozen pictures of me on Facebook where I'm drunk beyond reason, which of course would make it appear I'm some "punk", but in reality I'm a pretty upstanding citizen. There has to be a fair balance.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
but their case is based on emotion not fact

That's not how this case (or law in general) works. Both sides, the prosecution and the defense, have access to the same "facts". How they interpret and present the facts (read: evidence) are what make a case. The prosecution isn't going up there and basing their arguments on "I'm sad that Trayvon is dead, so this man should go to jail"...no, it's "We have exhibits X, Y, and Z which we believe to suggest that the accused is guilty of murder because [enter justification here] and the evidence supports that".

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 17):
Might want to go and reread:

Your reading comprehension is struggling tonight, Maverick. I clearly said that nobody suggested that the operator said those exact words. If that's what seb was saying, he would have put quotations around it. That's how the English language still works, right?

If I told someone to "shut up", could you not accurately say that I told someone to be quiet? (note the lack of quotation marks)



Flying refined.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7176 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
The operators don't have any authority, and he definitely didn't say the exact words "stand down", but it was certainly communicated to Zimmerman that it's not a good idea to follow the kid, and he in fact ignored that suggestion. Nobody in this thread has said that the 911 operator said the exact words of "stand down", so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

I agree but please read the quote I quoted below. The words "stand down" are there.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Zimmerman was told to stand down. He did not. Yet, he will walk free.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Your reading comprehension is struggling tonight, Maverick. I clearly said that nobody suggested that the operator said those exact words. If that's what seb was saying, he would have put quotations around it. That's how the English language still works, right?

After saying "Zimmerman was told to stand down" Seb said, "He did not." IMO from reading that statement from Seb he thinks he should have stood down, as if it was an order he did not follow. Just a difference of opinion in how we comprehended Seb's comments.

Whether that is what Seb meant or not I have heard many times from other people on Anet, the Media and in conversation about Zimmerman not listening to the operator. That is clearly irrelevant in that case.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
If you're going to attempt a joke, at least make sure it's funny...

Number one rule when using a joke in court. Can't believe he did that.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4933 times:

Anyone else notice this guy has put on some serious weight since the whole ordeal started?



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4851 times:

He probably figured looking fit and buff wouldn't help his case. Or prison just did that to him.

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
Whether that is what Seb meant or not I have heard many times from other people on Anet, the Media and in conversation about Zimmerman not listening to the operator. That is clearly irrelevant in that case.

What the exact words were is clearly irrelevant, as was said not obeying an operator is not illegal. The conversation is still very relevant to understand what happened, what was the mindset of the accused, etc.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7176 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4841 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Or prison just did that to him.

He has not been in prison. He has been out on bond for the majority of the time before trial.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
He probably figured looking fit and buff wouldn't help his case

It was probably the stress.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
What the exact words were is clearly irrelevant, as was said not obeying an operator is not illegal. The conversation is still very relevant to understand what happened, what was the mindset of the accused, etc.

I agree but I have often heard people how he did not "listen to police" and did not followed "orders" this is simply not the case. There was no police, and no orders.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4812 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok

Source: http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

The operators don't have any authority, and he definitely didn't say the exact words "stand down", but it was certainly communicated to Zimmerman that it's not a good idea to follow the kid, and he in fact ignored that suggestion. Nobody in this thread has said that the 911 operator said the exact words of "stand down", so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

In fairness you left the part out where Zimmerman acknowledges the dispatcher's suggestion, so you can't say for sure whether or not he ignored it unless of course you were there. As far as I know, that hasn't been established unless I missed it somewhere..

[Edited 2013-06-26 09:30:29]

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4779 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
The words "stand down" are there.

Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that many people are taking it too literally and chastising others for not being accurate enough.

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
Just a difference of opinion in how we comprehended Seb's comments.

Agreed. We'll leave it at that.

Quoting flymia (Reply 22):
It was probably the stress.

Probably right. He may be a stress-eater which cause him to gain so much weight. Or perhaps he hasn't been exercising because he doesn't want to leave his house and face the media or people on the street who have already played judge-and-jury in their mind.

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 23):
In fairness you left the part out where Zimmerman acknowledges the dispatcher's suggestion, so you can't say for sure whether or not he ignored it unless of course you were there.

My apologies...it wasn't intentionally left out.

But since you have raised the point, I think that his response of "Ok" actually works against him. It can (and will) be used by the prosecution to illustrate that it was suggested he not approach or pursue the boy (which I believe he hadn't yet at this point of the call) but he did indeed ignore the 911 operator's suggestion. It's not going to break the case, but it sure isn't in Zimmerman's favour.



Flying refined.
25 SFBdude : Possibly. According to the "star witness" (Trayvon's friend) during her phone interview and deposition, it made it seem like Trayvon was the one who a
26 type-rated : A month or so there was a news story that George Zimmerman has put on over 100lb due to the stress he is under from his current situation.
27 Post contains links seb146 : Yet. Florida is a "Stand Your Ground" state. NRA will be sure those laws are upheld. At all costs. Except experts said they were a young guy and not
28 Post contains links Maverick623 : Oh give me a break. The SYG law is not on trial here, George Zimmerman is. Except other experts said it was either Zimmerman or (more likely) both ye
29 flymia : You just sound silly right now. Again can you please tell me what the NRA has to do with it? Are they going to bribe the jury and judge? Maybe they w
30 Mir : Does following count as approaching? You could make the argument that it does. -Mir
31 SFBdude : No because according to the girlfriend, Trayvon turned around and went to where George was to confront him. Or at least according to her conversation
32 Mir : But had Zimmerman not followed him, there would have been no reason to turn around. So it could be argued that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.
33 cmf : Why should Martin gone home but not Zimmerman?
34 L-188 : I hear the girlfriend is putting up a great show. For me is the best is when the defense asked her to read the letter that she sent Martins parents de
35 Maverick623 : Although I've gotten caught up in the "who started it" argument, it really is invalid. See below: This is the tricky bit: neither of them, before the
36 SFBdude : I can also say had Trayvon went home, there would of been no fight. Because he was scared of the person who was following him. Only makes sense to go
37 Mir : That runs entirely contrary to the principle underlying the "stand your ground" law - you're not obligated to retreat when you feel threatened, you c
38 DeltaMD90 : Can you provide even the smallest shred of evidence for these ridiculous claims? Or can you even explain how the NRA will do this besides simply thro
39 cmf : I'm not aware that the first punch matters in stand your ground. How does it come into play? My understanding of stand your ground is quite the oppos
40 Post contains images flyingturtle : If somebody left his car, and approached me, I would have shot him under this very Stand Your Ground rule. So, Zimmerman really had been lucky. If Zi
41 SFBdude : So they both felt each other to be a possible threat to one another. Both were in the right according to the law. Case closed? That must be why they
42 SFBdude : I believe that's already been done unfortunately in other cases.[Edited 2013-06-27 15:45:12]
43 Mir : Except that Zimmerman made the first move by deciding to follow Martin. And that move wasn't based on a threat that he perceived to himself (or at le
44 okie : Zimmerman identifies himself as hispanic in which he is, all the racial overtones ring hollow. The re-editing of the 911 tapes by the White house pro
45 flymia : I think the racism thing is ridiculous also. Honestly if this was a black man killing a black teenager, a black man killing a white teenager, a white
46 WestJet747 : Where has race even been mentioned in this thread? I think you're forgetting that the kid he shot was of a different race than him. Racism isn't a wh
47 rfields5421 : I don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread - but it has certainly been an angle Martin's family and supporters have shouted from the first
48 flymia : I would not be sure about that. That would be going for a home run. It could win the case but it could very well go against them. That is a hard deci
49 cmf : Why did he need to get out of his car for that? Why couldn't he have taken pictures and followed from his car? Was this outcome better than losing tr
50 SFBdude : Well before I continue, is stand your ground being used in this case? I know its been thrown out there since pretty much the beginning but has it bee
51 ltbewr : I don't believe that Zimmerman will walk, but likely end up being convicted of a lower-tier manslaughter charge by the Jury, if they have the option t
52 KBJCpilot : If you had listened to the dispatchers' testimony on Day One of the trial you would have heard Zimmerman tell the dispatcher that there had been othe
53 SFBdude : The prosecution really had no other choice but to call them. They were either going to be their witnesses or the defense's witnesses. All of the neig
54 DeltaMD90 : That's a great example of how NOT to handle this situation! You came close to killing someone innocent because of YOU putting yourself in that situat
55 KBJCpilot : That's your opinion. Unfortunately I lived in a rural area where law enforcement was 15-30 minutes away. When you live in the rural western US you do
56 flyingturtle : That way, several people are killed every day in the United States of America. The life of your neighbor wasn't in danger, and trying to do a better
57 cmf : Wrong, it started before that. It started when Zimmerman started following Martin and made it in such a way that Martin decided to double back, if th
58 MD11Engineer : This is why over here in Europe police officers usually operate in pairs, so that one can back up the other and both can watch each other´s back. I
59 MD-90 : Big, sparsely populated counties out west can't afford to have two officers (sheriff's deputies) patrolling in the same car all the time.
60 Maverick623 : Oh, how perfect hindsight is. LOL, and what do you think the cops would have done? Yep, because the cops would TOTALLY just keep their guns holstered
61 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Because he is TOTALLY a uniformed cop I don't even know if what he did was legal... he drew on a guy on someone else's property and was not threatene
62 Post contains images Pellegrine : When the United States sentences so many to life without parole and death, how can this man possibly walk? Ignorant. Just like that other thread. It i
63 rfields5421 : When someone makes up lies to help get someone arrested and charged with murder - they deserve all the lambasting they can get. When someone 'writes'
64 SFBdude : It started when Trayvon punched George in the face. Even while George was yelling for help, Trayvon began and continued to smash his head in the conc
65 DarkSnowyNight : I wouldn't recommend bragging about committing unprovoked felonies online. Just Saying... No, it's a fact. You need to be in prison. KBJC's actions w
66 Post contains images Maverick623 : You attacked his method of confronting the criminal, when the cops would have done the exact same thing. His status as a police officer is irrelevant
67 roswell41 : Following someone who is sneaking through your neighborhood at night through backyards is not a crime. Punching said person MMA style is a crime. Zimm
68 DeltaMD90 : There are plenty of things police officers can do that average Joes can't. I'm having a tough time accepting this... can't claim castle doctrine sinc
69 Flaps : And that in a nutshell sums up the entire case.
70 Post contains images Maverick623 : How could it be determined he wasn't planning on "storming the house"? Guy creeping in the shadows, yep, nothing out of the ordinary there In cases l
71 DeltaMD90 : Oh please, I'm well aware of protecting others when you think their lives are in danger. I know it's all on perception, perception of a reasonable pe
72 Mir : Critical difference: KBJC was not being stalked. His neighbors were. At no time could he have reasonably claimed to consider himself in danger. -Mir
73 DeltaMD90 : To be fair, some (if not most or all states) extend it to "considering if others are in danger," which is Maverick623's point. I'm arguing that the e
74 flymia : The two U.S. cities I have lived in White Americans are the minority. So maybe that is why I feel that this White vs Miniroties thing is way over pla
75 cmf : No, at that time it was far down the road already. We know from Zimmerman that he initiated the events, when he decided to follow Martin who was just
76 Flaps : It wouldn't have even been a major local story.
77 SFBdude : George getting out of his truck = following Trayvon? He didn't even know where he was at. After he was able to find a street sign to update the dispa
78 Maverick623 : Rest assured, I'm not going to be creeping around a dark house in the middle of the night... because I know that someone might (rightly) suspect me o
79 cmf : That is no what has been reported. 7:11:33 — Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running. 7:11:59 — In reply to the disp
80 Maverick623 : Just because you don't like the evidence doesn't mean it's not evidence. If you're looking for new evidence, you're not gonna find it. From the 911 c
81 Post contains links cmf : Pot, kettle, black. I.e. we know Zimmerman had started aggression by following Martin. Question is if it matters since it isn't the start of the atta
82 roswell41 : Zimmerman following does not start any act. That's like saying Trayvon getting skittles from 7-11 started the chain of events. Both are legal and legi
83 cmf : Of course it does. It is an aggressive move.
84 roswell41 : Call Zimmerman's following whatever you want, but in the eyes of the law the aggressor is the one who laid hands on the other first. Name calling or d
85 Post contains links cmf : Looking forward to see you support this claim. Specifically considering the "stand your ground" laws where fear is pretty much all that is need for y
86 Maverick623 : She did not hear Trayvon fall... she likely heard his earbud fall out. And I do find it disturbing that you would trust the word of someone who has a
87 Post contains images cmf : I find it disturbing you discount a witness just because you don't like what she said. She is the only witness who was there from before Zimmerman sa
88 flymia : When the defense attorneys are using open ended non-leading questions when cross examing the police officers you know the case is extremely weak for t
89 Dreadnought : Bingo. And on that basis, I have little doubt that Zimmerman will walk. Zimmerman does not have to prove his innocence. The burden of proof is on the
90 roswell41 : There is nothing for me to explain. This is age old common law regarding self defense. Regarding "stand your ground" laws, you are completely incorre
91 type-rated : I wish the media would stop showing all those photos of Trayvon when he was a little kid. That's NOT who attacked George Zimmerman. A more appropriate
92 JJJ : It's not that clear, as long as Martin noticed Zimmerman was following him he broke into a run. The fact that Zimmerman decided to chase him makes is
93 Post contains links and images cmf : Note your lack of actual support for your claim. Then look at this and your claim is disproved. Look, it is clear you think it is OK to be a vigilant
94 flymia : They most certainly are. It is a serious possibility and the longer this trial goes the more likely it looks like Zimmerman is acquitted but who know
95 roswell41 : Does 'addressing' him mean bashing his head into concrete? I'm not going to restate my previous comments. You choose not to acknowledge the law of se
96 seb146 : What about following a person after authorities tell you not to? Not just following, but running after when you have a gun and he does not?
97 Dreadnought : Then let's blame their parents for having children. If they had not, none of this would have happened. Why do you keep insisting on this nonsense tha
98 Post contains images flymia : No authority told him anything. A 911 operator is NOT an authority so please stop saying this over and over again. ^ You see what I mean. Most people
99 DucatiRacer : You realize that you are essentially pleading the defense's case here. A criminal defendant cannot be found guilty unless the jury finds that the evi
100 Post contains links Dreadnought : The will charge him with a hate crime. They will accuse him of being motivated by Martin being black. No question in my mind. http://en.wikipedia.org
101 flymia : And what a waste of time and money that will be. They could get lucky and find a jury to convict of that but I don't see a Circuit Court holding up t
102 WestJet747 : I can definitely see the political motivation of the state levying the charge they did, no question there...but I'm not convinced on this "racial jus
103 flymia : No, that's not really what I meant. They don't have anything to owe. What I mean is that the reason this even a national story is because of the race
104 type-rated : I didn't mean: Smoking Pot = Thug I meant Pot Smoking AND thug due to his past arrest records. I realize that most people who smoke pot aren't thugs,
105 Post contains images Maverick623 : Saying you're grasping at straws is, in fact, a real argument, because it's what you're doing. There should be no debate as to who was on top in the
106 WestJet747 : Still not sure how marijuana and graffiti makes him a thug. Thug is a term typically reserved for those who commit violent crimes. It might be nitpic
107 flymia : SYG was certainly a big part of it too. But I just don't think it was not going to get the same media attention if it was not a black teenager who wa
108 Post contains links SFBdude : http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...-explode-during-trial-2695448.html This type of stuff can't be protected under freedom of speech can it? ...
109 Boeing717200 : If they do what they say when Zimmerman walks, then they're pretty much toast.
110 Post contains links and images WestJet747 : Depends. There's precedent set by the Supreme Court that says "threats may not be punished if a reasonable person would understand them as obvious hy
111 seb146 : Because he didn't know who was following him. I can guarantee a man in civilian clothes who does not identify themselves as police is seen as a threa
112 Dreadnought : Irrelevant. Once you have broken contact, would you circle back to see who it was, or do you run home? What would make you chose the former rather th
113 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Ummm... what? Reread what he said! I'm not saying Zimmerman is innocent but at least get what posters are saying
114 type-rated : Maybe where you come from. Here it could be anyone that has mugged someone for a valuable, someone involved in gang activity. It could be a true thug
115 seb146 : Apparently, if you have a gun, you circle back to see who it was. If you are an unarmed teen, you wait in the shadows until the threat is gone. Until
116 Dreadnought : Or, if you are an unarmed teen but have a big attitude, you circle back to see who it was anyway. And he did stop following. According to his testimo
117 JJJ : Stalking a minor is. After telling things like "they always get away" and "f***** c****" I dubt the jury will believe he approached Martin in a very
118 DeltaMD90 : I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I will admit I don't know enough to talk of the subject with any semi-authority, but the whole point is
119 type-rated : No I was only talking about probabilities. Since we will never know now, his life could have ended up in any one of hundreds of millons of possible o
120 DTW2HYD : He will walk, because he has Mark O'Mara.
121 flymia : That is not the point. I am not saying the 911 operator did not tell him to stop following him. The operator did tell him that. My point is that is a
122 seb146 : What is being said is: He was black and smoked pot, therefore, prison and several children are absolute. Zimmerman had a gun. Therefore, he is a mass
123 flymia : Yes, yes it does. There is no "license" I can do what I want as long as it is not breaking the law. That is the question. Is what Zimmerman did a cri
124 Dreadnought : 1) The only one here throwing absolutes around is you. 2) Black is irrelevant. Pot, a little more relevant, but not much. His criminal history (even
125 Maverick623 : It means what it means. Christ, even the dispatcher testified that he gave no legal orders, only suggestions which are not legally binding and have l
126 Post contains images Dreadnought : I find it hilarious how some people, even in the courtroom, are shrugging off his obvious injuries, and saying that he should have (I guess) brushed
127 flyingturtle : Not legally binding? Maybe. But you're overlooking the real point: These people still are professionals who, given the information you tell them, act
128 Dreadnought : WOW! Someone on the other end of a phone line knows better than you what's going on? As far as being professionals, 911 operators are generally paid
129 dallasnewark : This makes no sense whatsoever. A 911 operator is not a figure of authority and his/her advice can't be taken as a wholly grail. Not heeding to advic
130 rfields5421 : Actually according to your logic throughout this thread - that REQUIRES you to step back and not provide ANY first aid support. Including trying to s
131 type-rated : Sometimes they may have training in such matters BUT they can only respond to what you are telling them. They are not there with you to see what is g
132 flymia : Of course it can be a criminal offense! Obviously when you do something that leads to damaged property, bodily injuries or deaths no matter what advi
133 Maverick623 : Not maybe; it is NOT legally binding. Period. 911 dispatchers do not fall under your category of "professionals". They are not authority figures or p
134 seb146 : If you don't know the proper way to administer first aid. Just as: if your life it not threatened, you simply see someone you don't know, according t
135 type-rated : No, it boils down to he was somebody who had an arrest record as well as punching people when he felt like it. He had a past. And common sense tells
136 seb146 : For graffiti and pot smoking. And there is Zimmerman who has a resisting arrest, battery on an officer and a restraining order against an ex-wife. Bu
137 flymia : If you think what this case is about, man I am glad you aren't on the jury or any jury ever, hopefully. And the South? Really man? It's Orlando. A Hi
138 type-rated : No, blame the black thug.
139 seb146 : Who was unarmed and felt he was in danger. He was "Standing His Ground" but he is the aggressor. The man with anger issues and a gun is the victim. E
140 type-rated : You know there is a "perception" that the prosecution has to deal with. Look inside a typical penetentary. What kind of prisoners do you mostly see? T
141 ken777 : Oh, I know that. My wife is the last person a Defense lawyer would want on a jury. She makes me look like a liberal and I'd like to see the Singapore
142 flymia : You are right. Zimmerman should have stayed in his car. However, looking at this legally and not emotionally, the operator telling him to stay means
143 Maverick623 : Please learn to read posts correctly. I was referring to a different incident that, unfortunately, nearly took this thread off track. Also, please st
144 usflyer msp : I think Zimmerman is guilty as sin. However, based upon what I have seen, I also think the prosecution overcharged him and he is probably going to wal
145 seb146 : He was a neighborhood watch person who was told by the bylaws of the neighborhood watch that he CAN NOT carry a weapon of ANY KIND. Black pot smokers
146 Post contains images EA CO AS : Ok, so once Zimmerman walks....what communities are most likely to experience rioting and/or loss of life as a result? Place your bets....
147 type-rated : You know the marching, rioting and city burning hasn't happened for quite some time. This kind of thing may have happened years(60's-80's) ago but I t
148 ltbewr : I find when a TV news program talks about this case, I change the channel to another news or non-news program. I wish live TV cameras in the courtroom
149 Post contains links Dreadnought : That's a myth. For possession, the vast majority are fined or sentenced to community service or simply supervision. Those that go to prison were invo
150 Maverick623 : I get it. You don't like the guy because he carried a gun and was a probably over-concerned about protecting his neighborhood. That has little bearin
151 ken777 : It has a ton of significance for Martin and his family. Every black guy with a gun in a "neighborhood watch program" will know his face. That should
152 wardialer : Why does this matter in the first place? He is not like a celebrity were he deserves this much attention. We should be focusing more the more importan
153 Post contains images type-rated : Because the media needs something to do. With all the coverage there has been of this trial, you'd think they are trying OJ all over again. This and
154 flymia : You guys can keep having your Nancy Grace emotional discussions. Neighborhood By-laws. Seriously? And significance to his family. I understand the em
155 aloha73g : I haven't read the whole thread, but the other day someone at work (who's generally disinterested in news) told me she watched news about the trial, a
156 DarkSnowyNight : Which likely wouldn't be very long. The ironic thing about all of this is that if he were somehow freed after having murdered an unarmed minor, he wi
157 dreadnought : Assume for a moment that Martin did indeed backtrack on Zimmerman after Zimmerman had decided to heed the police's request over the phone to not foll
158 cmf : Glad you finally start to get close the core question instead of all the claims about following doesn't matter, that breaking contact means everythin
159 dreadnought : I'm sorry but that is a completely ridiculous position. Following someone from a distance does not justify assault, or eliminates the right to use wh
160 cmf : What is ridiculous is that you do not accept it as provocation. Hopefully you will never be in a situation where it makes a difference. No it isn't.
161 dreadnought : If I provoke you, tease, call your mother names, that does not give you any legal right to assault me. And if you find yourself with someone seemingl
162 roswell41 : You are unfortunately wrong and I have to agree with the other poster. Following or observing someone is not aggression in the eyes of the law. This
163 cmf : You keep making that claim but can't provide any support for it. Here is what the law says: Do you see how it says that if you provoke the use of for
164 DarkSnowyNight : The problem is that that requires some acrobatics of theory to get to that point. Is the defense actually try to say that he never got out of his car
165 dreadnought : I am asking you to treat it as a hypothetical. That does not answer the question, and shows intellectual dishonesty. Obviously you don't have the rig
166 cmf : Only matters if it was obvious that he was going back and not just circling back while searching. From where do you have that? never heard of a secon
167 dreadnought : That's Zimmerman's claim - that when Martin challanged him, he reached into his pocket for his cell phone and started to call 911, but did not have t
168 cmf : I just double checked the reenactment and there is nothing about him trying to call 911. He said he tried to reach for his phone but it wasn't in his
169 dreadnought : Close enough. OK then, what constitutes provocation? Are you saying that if I call your mother ugly, you have the right to assault me because I provo
170 Ken777 : And I'm sure you will be able to come up with all the money needed for your legal defense. I'm starting to think that Zimmerman woke up and started g
171 Post contains links BN747 : Other than the gunshot, the only other injury found on Martin's body was a 1/4" x 1/8" abrasion on his left hand. According to Morgan, this indicates
172 Maverick623 : So the multiple witnesses who said there was indeed a fight, are lying? Get real.
173 Post contains links seb146 : The girlfriend has said twice Martin was being followed but Zimmerman said little. http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/18/i_know_he_was_scared_trayvon
174 BN747 : Snarkiness aside... None of them are reliable, they all cancel each other out. Trayvon's mom : 'That's my son screaming' Zimmerman's mom: 'That's my
175 roswell41 : I hesitate to contribute further into this thread as it devolves, but I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here. Do you even understand what
176 BN747 : That's amazing..Zimmerman lies to the court (the finance thing and gets perjury charges leveled at him) then lies to the whole country on Sean Hannit
177 Pellegrine : Equally too bad you are already prejudiced in your judgement, like a whole lot of others on this thread. No wonder America has racial problems. Like
178 cmf : yet another case where you had facts wrong. This is why stand your ground laws are stupid because with them it is essentially nothing. Then show it.
179 futurepilot16 : I think this is the biggest red flag in this case...why did GZ get out of his vehicle and approach TM? I still have not heard anyone including GZ giv
180 EA CO AS : Sadly, the answer is "whoever I'm predisposed toward believing." For most anti-authority folks, they'll want to believe Mr. Martin was wronged. For m
181 BN747 : Very true for people limited to compartmentalizing everything and everyone in stark 'either - or' two dimensional terms. Very faulty for when police
182 Maverick623 : The girlfriend's testimony is unreliable. Her story has changed multiple times, and she is not impartial. I don't believe his version wholeheartedly
183 BN747 : Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 182): However, given their testimony that the person on top was always on top, and combined with the physical evidence of Z
184 dreadnought : I'm no fan of Savage - I think I've listened to him twice in my life. But it sounds like he was being sarcastic.
185 BN747 : Just like Zimmerman's..every step of the way. Unreliable. You can't quote a word of me stating I believe any media smear nonsense. Feel free to point
186 Maverick623 : You are basing that not on forensics, but on your own misandric, anti-gun biases. Women are more capable than men at handling a gun? Give me a freaki
187 EA CO AS : So my pointing out what has historically happened in other cases where there happens to have been a black/white race dynamic is now racist? You're de
188 BN747 : Don't get defensive, you made the 'standard dog whistle racist comment' ...'they'll be riots and burning' and made it your own - only certain mindset
189 seb146 : I am saying that Martin said he felt threatened by a stranger following him in the dark. He had two options: Fight or Flight. He probably wanted a ch
190 roswell41 : Indeed that is bizarre. Did anyone see the Vietnam medic testify that he believed Zimmerman was the one yelling for help on the tape? I thought he se
191 slider : Having followed the trial intermittently, I think Zimmerman will be found not guilty. However, it will ultimately depend on the judge's instructions t
192 BN747 : Then Zimmerman committed a crime in your mind. See below. This is unbelievable! The current witness (for the defense) is a Zimmerman's MMA fighting c
193 DeltaMD90 : Loaded guns are not the issue, it is people being stupid with loaded guns. So many people are dumb with guns I can see where you're going with that..
194 BN747 : In this case it is. In fact it is critical. My point about this was not to evoke a gun debate, but to highlight Zimmerman's state of mind with a load
195 Post contains images EA CO AS : Typical response from you; that can be ignored. Tell me, do you deal from a 5 or 7 deck boot of Race Cards? You always seem to have them at the ready
196 BN747 : And like a buzz saw..you can't resist walking into e-v-e-r-y--s-i-n-g-l-e time. There's precedence. Nope.. just your race related post. The viewpoint
197 EA CO AS : Let's discuss this; what - in your view - does "coming to grips with the issue" look like? Be specific.
198 BN747 : I'm game if your sincere and start a separate thread if you're curious as to what that means. Why is it or is it not important to you (I don't think
199 Post contains links slider : Defense's witness, Dr. Di Maio, has said Martin was atop Zimmerman when he was shot based on forensic evidence. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1..
200 dreadnought : Forensic evidence that shows that Zimmerman might be telling the truth must be a fabrication. He is guilty of murder and must pay, no matter what the
201 JJJ : Headline: "Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman when teen was shot, gunshot wound expert testifies" Actual text: "Taking the stand for the defense,
202 cmf : Who has claimed Martin wasn't on top when he was shoot? But noone with a CCW can ever be guilty so facts be damned...
203 BN747 : Silly and expected... Precisely and he stated it was just his opinion.. the in crossed admitted he very well could been standing. Charles, grow up..o
204 roswell41 : Are you seriously saying O.J. was innocent? You've damaged your credibility.
205 seb146 : And that's fine except IF he did get out of his vehicle with his gun drawn, that says something. Common sense dictates you know where your gun is jus
206 flymia : You need to read that again a bit more closely. No that's not the point at all. We know he was shot a point-blank but the range was estimated to be 2
207 JJJ : Thank you, missed that on first reading.
208 cmf : I don't think there is anything to suggest he left his vehicle with weapon out. The more interesting question is it carrying the weapon gave him the
209 flymia : I had to read it 3-4 times to make sure what I read was right. Its a little confusing reading it but seeing the tapes on the news made it a lot clear
210 BN747 : Looks like West may be going for a mistrial... he's totally pissing off the judge! with what appears to be a clash between Zimmerman and his lawyers .
211 Ken777 : He was on when I turned the TV on and I tried to figure out who the hell he was - he certainly sounded like a puffed up idiot having trouble deliveri
212 BN747 : I don't expect Zimmerman to actually take the stand, but seems seriously concerned about where things stand, but why wouldn't he..it's closing time.
213 dreadnought : What credibility? Because there is no way to answer that. None of us are Zimmerman's psychoanalyst with detailed knowledge of his psyche. Any other o
214 Maverick623 : Here's something to ponder. You're walking down the street, turn a corner, and see a guy with a gun to someone's back and reaching in the other guy's
215 Post contains links cmf : You're not shy about speculating in other regards so tell us what you think. How long will you keep ignoring the legal text. It says provoke. It does
216 ltbewr : There is no doubt that from the public view of this case, serious mistakes and bad situations have hurt the Prosecution, from weak to poorly prepared
217 dreadnought : That's a completely different situation, and is not self defense. In fact in some states, under their CCW laws, it is not always legal for you to fir
218 Post contains links dreadnought : Here's another question: Judicial Watch has uncovered evidence that DOJ personnel spent taxpayer money to help organize protests against Zimmerman bac
219 dallasnewark : It looks like he's going to waltz out of the court...... Prosecution had nothing on him, they have helped defense, especially that first witness, what
220 cmf : No, a very important exercise as the requirements for carrying weapons in public are so low. Read the legal text. He wasn't looking for street signs.
221 flymia : What an embarrassment and joke it will be if the DOJ actually attempts this. This is possible. Yep. Sure he can probably make some good money with so
222 Post contains links cmf : The judge weighing in on the issue about Zimmerman following Martin. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ting-pursuit-idUSBRE96A0P720130711
223 dreadnought : Holy crap. Grounds for appeal right there. We live in a country where liberty and freedom are assumed. You have the right to do anything you like, UN
224 tugger : One should not be allowed to bait someone and then basically raise the ante. You definitely have the right to defend yourself but not to "bring a gun
225 flymia : I agree with that. It is not illegal to follow someone but I don't think the judge needs to tell the jury in the instructions that it is not illegal
226 Maverick623 : This is the correct answer. There was an episode of the TV show Southland, where the rookie cop witnesses what appears to be an armed robbery at a co
227 canoecarrier : Low? In Florida you have to take a firearms safety or training class in order to get a concealed weapons license. Zimmerman had that. I listened to s
228 cmf : How can you question low when a person who has never touched a gun is considered proficient after a two - three hour class and shooting a shot or two
229 Post contains images flymia : Agreed. I am a big CCW supporter. But I am also a big believer that training and requirements should be much more strict. A yearly check should be a
230 Post contains links stratosphere : Yeah when you have the President weighing in on a pending case with "If I had a son he would look like Trayvon kinda says it all. I see the mother wh
231 Post contains links Ken777 : While the jury might not have seen everything that the community sees there could well be a problem is Zimmerman walks out the door a free man. Feder
232 Maverick623 : Really? That's news to me. Any evidence to back that up?
233 Ken777 : Why else is there a new police chief? If the dead kid had been a well off 17 year old (for 3 weeks) kid from a above average neighborhood things woul
234 AustinAllison : The case is simple in all honesty. There is not enough evidence put forward by the prosecution to get a conviction. Yes, Zimmerman killed Martin, but
235 DeltaMD90 : I agree. "Not guilty" does not mean innocent, it just means there is enough doubt to not be 100% sure he's guilty. I see him walking, the case just d
236 flymia : Defense used evidence, facts, testimony and lacks of facts. You know the case is very weak when the rebuttal starts with all emotion mish mosh. Good e
237 Post contains links flymia : Just read this on CNN: "It is up to you decide which evidence is reliable," Nelson told the jurors, adding they should "use your common sense" to dete
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