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Egypt: Crunch Time Approaches  
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12515 posts, RR: 35
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

The Egyptian army has given Pres. Morsi and the opposition 48 hours to resolve the current crisis ... a timeframe which expires today.

State media has already announced that President Morsi will either resign or be ousted. It appears that the president has no such intention.

Rival groups - supporting and opposing the president are gathered in Cairo. Needless to say, the president's supporters will see any such move by the army as a coup.

It seems that there is a stalemate ... a stalemate that is likely to be broken very violently.

http://news.sky.com/story/1110850/eg...sis-meeting-held-as-deadline-looms

Will Mohammed Morsi still be president 72, 48 or even 24hrs from now?
How will the Muslim brotherhood react?
How will the army react to their reaction?
Will we see General Al-Sisi become president, even for a limited time?

144 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

I have a few Egyptian friends and one of them posted this morning:

"And for all the media out there that question the Egyptian people living in egypt for protesting after 1 year of 'electing' their president. They are not being unrealistic, they have given enough time. YOU go live in a country where you can't afford bread, vegetables, eggs, oil. Water cut offs daily, electricity cuts all day long. No police. The price of medicine goes up everyday, literally. You can negotiate your exchange rate on the dollar. That's if you even have dollars. In one year, the standard of living has declined so poorly that no one should tolerate. So please SHUT UP! You have NO idea what it's like. Go live there for a week amongst the common people and see how you feel. At least during mubaraks time, these were minor issues in relation to what the people wanted then. Now they demand the basics of mankind."

And the post from Tarek Heggy doing the rounds I think explains in additional detail:

I could understand that a person who does not deal with the Middle East is to believe that the Ikhwan (The Muslim Brothers) are a political movement that accepts democracy in full. But a true Middle East expert knows rather well that Islamism and Democracy are 100% foes. When someone innocently says : Mohamed Morsy was democratically elected, I immediately expound : that both Adolf Hitler and Ismail Hanyiah of Palestine were also democratically elected ! but was Morsy truly elected ? No, he was not. I was personally told by the DCM (deputy chief of mission) at the USA Embassy in Cairo that Ahmed Shafeeq was the winner, but the Americans wanted Morsy to avoid a blood bath in case Ahmed Shafeeq became Egypt's President. I am currently working on a hearing session (under the oath) at the USA Congress concerning this particular point. Today, we have 33 million Egyptians who declared patently clear on 30th June, 2013 that Egyptians do not want the Muslim Brothers to rule Egypt anymore after a year during which Morsy was not only a rounded failure but a radical Islamist who spent his 365 days doing only one thing : radicalization of Egypt. It is totally incorrect to picturize what is taking place in Egypt as a split between those who are pro Morsy and those who are anti Morsy. The reality of the matter is that we have a majority that is pro civil Egypt and a minority that is pro an Islamist Egypt. It is also correct that Morsy's supports include a large number of terrorists. I am someone who spent the past four decades studying and writing about Political Islam and therefore give myself the right to claim that saying that Morsy is legitimate is a replica of what happened in Europe in the 1930s when some kept saying that Hitler was legitimate.

-----

Not long after Morsi took over, the Egyptian parliament debated banning bikinis in Egypt. For me that about summed it up, and the old adage "be careful what you wish for" sprung to mind.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

The MuSSolini Timer

http://morsitimer.com/

Tic Toc Tic Toc Tic...

     

Crowd at Tahrir Square (live feed)

http:// rt.com/ on-air/opposition-rally-egypt-morsi/

(please paste link together)

  

[Edited 2013-07-03 06:55:59]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

The situation at the moment is very volatile. The military issued an ultimatum to the president 2 days ago, giving him 48 hours to either 'fulfill wishes or the people' or the military would implement its own 'roadmap'. The President responded by giving a 45-minute rant/hate speech on TV, where he essentially made no sign of backing down or seeking to accommodate the protesters. Those 48 hours are almost up.
The Muslim Brotherhood are delusional in thinking they have the support of the street of the common Egyptian. In every city, you have massive gatherings that certainly eclipse anything seen in 2011. In his speech, Morsi referred to his 'legitimacy' 50 times, and is using the fact that he came to power through democratic elections as a pretext to stay in power. He does not appreciate the irony that Mubarak, in 2011, was the legitimate president, and yet people insisted that he go. Morsi was never popular to begin with. Perhaps not everyone is familiar with this, but Morsi ran against a Mubarak-era politician with a military background who was seen as an unsavoury choice for president by many. Many people voted for Morsi not because they were Islamist, but because they wanted a civilian president, or a president who didn't remind them of Mubarak (agree or disagree, these were the reasons for millions).
As offloader rightly puts it, scratch an Islamist and you'll find how regressive, violent, and anti-democratic they can be. So many in Egypt who voted for him forgot this, or (temporarily) deluded themselves otherwise. Although I did not vote for Morsi, and hated him from day one, even I am surprised (but deeply thankful) at how quick people exposed him and his group for the frauds they are on a nationwide scale.
My hope is that the military will force Morsi to stand down, assemble a provisional government involving liberal figures such as El Baradei or Amr Moussa, and pave the way for a proper constitution, proper presidential elections, and a proper people's assembly. If the MB were smart, they would back down, lick their wounds in a corner and bide their time. But then again, they're not that smart, given how their president threatened the


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
Not long after Morsi took over, the Egyptian parliament debated banning bikinis in Egypt. For me that about summed it up, and the old adage "be careful what you wish for" sprung to mind.

Sounds like the Muslin Brotherhood hasn't learned the value of what "a chicken in every pot" would do for the country. Debating social issues before maintaining the infrastructure to keep economic order in the country is shameful.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Sounds like the Muslin Brotherhood hasn't learned

You'd think that they'd cotton on . . .  


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 5):
cotton on

A great underutilized idiom. Well done!   

ETA: And now I'm smacking myself, because I just realized what you did there!  tongue   laughing 

[Edited 2013-07-03 08:21:49]


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo250/parisquilts/MorsiTimer_zps0aeda85d.jpg


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12515 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

The army is currently consulting various factions - but the Muslim Brotherhood has refused to meet the army to discuss the situation.

The situation now seems to be very fluid. The MB is - according to Al Jazeera - alleging that a military coup is under way and has that it would stand between tanks and the president.

President says he is willing to sacrifice his blood for the sake of Egypt.

As yet, no independent verification of what is happening.

http://www.aljazeera.com/


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3526 times:

This is another live feed from Cairo

It shows Tahrir Square but also moves to different places in the city

There is one huge avenue with massive crowds

Maybe it's the Pro-Mursi protesters?

http:// www.livestream. com/ontveglive

(please paste the link)



[Edited 2013-07-03 09:10:24]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1599 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Very dirty actions by the army.

Like him or not, Morsi is the legitimate elected president of Egypt.

Same goes for the parliament which various parties have tried to discredit.

Elections have consequences and people need to respect the results and let the winners govern. If you don't like the outcome, better luck at the next election.

Using the army to push around civilian government is not the answer.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
http:// www.livestream. com/ontveglive

(please paste the link)

tinyurl.com can solve these kinds of problems for you. Example: http://tinyurl.com/TahrirLive



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 10):
Using the army to push around civilian government is not the answer.

I would normally agree, but we are talking about the Muslim Brotherhood here. Any reason should be taken to remove them from power and line them up against the wall. They are no better than Nazis.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

A coup is under way. We were lucky to be in Cairo last December and only spoke to one person who supported Morsi -- and even that was qualified.

GOOD LUCK TO THE ORDINARY PEOPLE OF EGYPT, particularly all the people below. May Allah be with you!
        

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c07.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c08.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c19.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c09-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c04-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c03-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c29.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c21.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c06-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c16.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c26.jpg

[Edited 2013-07-03 09:46:38]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
"And for all the media out there that question the Egyptian people living in egypt for protesting after 1 year of 'electing' their president. They are not being unrealistic, they have given enough time. YOU go live in a country where you can't afford bread, vegetables, eggs, oil. Water cut offs daily, electricity cuts all day long. No police. The price of medicine goes up everyday, literally. You can negotiate your exchange rate on the dollar. That's if you even have dollars. In one year, the standard of living has declined so poorly that no one should tolerate. So please SHUT UP! You have NO idea what it's like. Go live there for a week amongst the common people and see how you feel. At least during mubaraks time, these were minor issues in relation to what the people wanted then. Now they demand the basics of mankind."

This is one of the most useful things I've read so far. I've heard about the protestors and their demands, but never been explained what the grievances are.

Sadly, if they replace one theocratic dictator with another, the outcome will be no different.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3477 times:

Egypt uprising: the pictures the mainstream media will not show you

15 Photos From the Tahrir Square Protests You'll Never See In Legacy Media. #Egypt #Morsi #Obama

http://directorblue.blogspot.fr/2013...s-from-tahrir-square-protests.html

  

EGYPT’S MURSI IS DETAINED, TAKEN TO MILITARY HOUSE:AL ARABIYA

At least 37 people have been killed and 1600 injured in violence since Tuesday night, Al Arabiya correspondent reports

 Wow!

Twitter feeds:

Military vehicles heading in direction of pro Morsi rally
https://twitter.com/kfahim/status/352460211207933953/photo/1

NewsBreaker ‏@NewsBreaker 1m
NOW: @kfahim: "Islamists fighting with officers. Commander orders soldiers down from vehicles" near Nasr City, Egypt pic.twitter.com/7Lqkj8vbp2

Kareem Fahim ‏@kfahim 2m
Islamists climb on top of armoured vehicles. "Your our military!"

Soldiers fire in the air to disperse Islamists
https://twitter.com/kfahim/status/352462851887230976/photo/1

Gun shots at #Rabaa now. NOW. People running, screaming. #Rabaa

The army bans any presidential statements on State TV
Finally the Islamist travel ban by the military is confirmed by MENA
After #Giza, the army steadily deploys in Cairo #Egypt #Tamarod #SCAF

The military are being deployed to separate the pro-Morsi protesters at Rabaa Al-Adawiya Mosque and the anti-Morsi demonstrators in front of the headquarters of the Ittihadiya presidential guard, reports Ahram Arabic.

i could go on and on...

Edited:

@jenanmoussa: "@AlArabiya: [Egypt Pres] Morsi being moved to Ministry of Defense for his own protection."



 Wow!

[Edited 2013-07-03 10:15:30]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3873 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 3):
Many people voted for Morsi not because they were Islamist, but because they wanted a civilian president, or a president who didn't remind them of Mubarak (agree or disagree, these were the reasons for millions).

No explanation/elaboration needed. This happens all the time in elections--picking the guy you dislike the least based on the information at the time. My late grandfather once told me that while he voted in every presidential election, he only actually voted "for" someone once or twice--the rest of the times, he voted "against" a candidate.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3447 times:

BREAKING FROM EGYPT Mohammed Mursi no longer in power, State newspaper reports - @CNN

let's hope this is true

karma for the brotherhood and their nasty tactics

     

Edited:

[19:59] Military source: State of emergency will be declared in Egypt following army statement
https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/live-coverage-egypt-protests

 alert 

[Edited 2013-07-03 10:41:12]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

I'm certainly not a supporter of Morsi or the MB, but don't forget the military is part of the problem. The military owns most of the economy.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

This is a really great picture

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q71/s720x720/1016097_10151574042143763_8679362_n.jpg

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25737 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Shame yet again an elected government is subverted by a military coup.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

This is a picture of army trucks deployment ner Islamis gathering in Cairo

https://twitter.com/samy_qaid/status/352468827826688000/photo/1


Edited:
Muslim Brotherhood will hold press conference at 10pm (9pm GMT) on latest developments in Egypt.

  

[Edited 2013-07-03 11:16:17]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Mega-party at Tahrir Square!!!

Lasers and fireworks abound!

Supreme Constitutional Court deputy chief justice Adly Mansour is president of Egypt

Edited:

BREAKING: Morsi's aide says Egyptian leader has been moved to an undisclosed location.

           

[Edited 2013-07-03 12:24:04]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 17):

karma for the brotherhood and their nasty tactics

Regardless, he was a democratically elected leader. I had no problem with Mubarak, but since they ousted him this was the best they could hope for. If they ever do elections, the same thing will happen.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):

Mega-party at Tahrir Square!!!

And what are they expecting now?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/midd...egypt-countdown-army-deadline-live

this website provides live updates...



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
25 FatmirJusufi : It's official now — Le coup d'etat!
26 alberchico : Where did they get so many fireworks ? Was an official holiday coming up ???
27 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : The atmosphere at Tahrir Square tonight is freaking unreal http://rt.co m/on-air/oppo sition-rally-egypt-morsi/ Party like an Egyptian! A Coup?! This
28 directorguy : Simply put, Morsi was an incompetent president. He presided over a year in which his cohorts tried to impose their will and influence on every single
29 OA260 : Good news for Egypt. Im sure the Coptic Christians are going to sleep a bit better now. Lets see what replaces Morsi. You never know with these things
30 ER757 : They had a big party when Mubarak left too - are we going to see these "parties" every year? Don't care for the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi was thei
31 AeroWesty : I believe the question of whether this is how Egypt views democracy is supposed to work is a valid question for the news media to ask. It doesn't sug
32 Dreadnought : The real shame is that some people tolerate the intolerant (and intolerable). Democracy is not the be-all and end-all of all authority. From the US D
33 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Thank you for your reports. We are lucky to have you! Tahrir Square is going haywire tonight! Oh what a night!!!! Coming from Twitter 911 Operator
34 OA260 : Very well said . Exactly the wonders of these evil men that say they are religious . They are the worst of society IMHO.
35 777way : I wonder if Egyptair crew who demanded to be allowed to wear hijab and won will now be forced to drop it. Also surprised at some disappointed members
36 Braniff747SP : A military coup? No. Democracy would entail a simple recall election. Democracy has nothing to do with force. God knows where Egypt will go now that
37 OA260 : Egyptians have more things to worry about than wearing hijab! Like how they intend to feed their kids and revive the economy. Also the ethnic minorit
38 777way : I know but still, interesting if its reversed.
39 OA260 : I don't believe it should be reversed if that's what they truly want as long as they realise they cant enforce it where other FA's don't want it. Tha
40 mad99 : looks like Morsi has walked like an Egyption
41 Flighty : In Egypt, they are still new to democracy and experimenting with it. Good for them. Right now approval of US Congress is well below 20%. Our democracy
42 Aesma : They (probably) got the majority of the votes, that doesn't make it a fair and square (or free) election. The political landscape was chaotic, it wou
43 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : It's the Fourth of July tomorrow, duh It's too early for me to celebrate, for the future of Egypt is very uncertain. I hope them all the best. As dif
44 777way : Yes its optional and not imposed.
45 Aesma : Well a big part of the economy was tourism, and the signals the MB was sending were not helping tourism at all. I mean, recently they put a new gover
46 Dreadnought : They tried that. Morsi responded by announcing Rule-By-Decree and other such tactics. Last I heard, tourism was down over 40% per year since 2011, ma
47 TheCol : The military serves the people, and the people have spoken. Morsi and the MB are considered a danger to society by the majority. Good luck with that.
48 AyostoLeon : A couple of differences. First, Mubarak was part of the military establishment, having risen in its ranks. Theorectically elected but could only remai
49 Braniff747SP : And the military will be different? Really? And then, if they even get to elections... the military holds the right to kick them out?
50 Dreadnought : They aren't Islamofascists, so they are a step in the right direction. In some cases, yes. Read the Declaration of Independence.
51 TheCol : If they turn into a bunch of jihadist autocrats, yes. By giving Morsi and the MB the boot, the people are sending the message that they will not tole
52 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : Today is the Muslim Brotherhood Day of Rage. Crowds are marching in direction of the Republican Guards HQ trying to free Morsi. RT: 10 dead, over 200
53 Post contains links dreadnought : It is encouraging when the MB has to resort to flat-out lies to rile people up. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4401220,00.html Brotherhood
54 mandala499 : Let's see... Egypt's dictatorship ended with the military basically doing a coup and returned the country to democracy, it failed, because the electi
55 Braniff747SP : I dislike the Muslim Brotherhood as much as the next guy, but they where legitimately elected; that's all I'm saying. Has nothing to do with foreign
56 dreadnought : Sure it has. The Declaration is one of Natural Rights, universal in scope, and valid for everyone on earth. It's not a legal document, it's a philoso
57 Braniff747SP : The Declaration is an expression of what the people wanted. If others agree, that's great. Of course. Striaght democracy is tyranny by majority; that
58 Post contains images mandala499 : How so? Please enlighten me how he got from an elected/appointed Chancellor according to the constitution, and ended up as head of state? As far as I
59 Braniff747SP : Sure. Hitler was appointed to the Chancellorship legally by von Hindenburg; however, when von Hindenburg died, Hitler needed to consolidate the offic
60 bennett123 : Perhaps I am misunderstanding the Bill of Rights, can any group, Military or Civil simply overthrow an elected Govt if they don't like it. Who decides
61 dreadnought : No, no, no. There are no 'inalienable rights' recognized within a true democracy. That is why countries normally put in place Constitutions which A)
62 Aesma : That's not democracy. Democracy includes voting but also the right to actually vote and be a candidate (in the election, most candidates weren't able
63 Braniff747SP : There have to be; the right to life, for example. The social contract puts the government into place to protect those rights, and to curtail others f
64 dreadnought : Not necessarily. In a pure democracy, If the majority decide that all Jews should be killed, nothing stands in their way (and such has happened many
65 Post contains images Braniff747SP : Of course. That's unmoderated democracy. That doesn't work; it is tyranny by majority. And radically changed. If the US suffered a coup, it would not
66 directorguy : Morsi had undermined the entire process of the modern democratic system the moment he began hijacking all the institutions that could curb him and ke
67 Braniff747SP : This is key. Checks and balances are [i[very[/i] important; a military coup does not qualify under any standard of the term. Agreed completely. I str
68 directorguy : There was no mechanism in place to either curb Morsi's power or remove him (bearing in mind that initially, people wanted the former). The best optio
69 mandala499 : If you believed Mubarak just resigned at the signs of demonstrations, you need to have another look at what happened back then. As Directorguy said,
70 Braniff747SP : Yes and no. The fact that he resigned and wasn't forced out at gunpoint is what made that fine. Look, all I'm saying here is that this coup delegitim
71 MD11Engineer : There could be a system behind this: Have a large number of people living in"Lumpenproletariat" conditions, who are uneducated and happy for the hand
72 directorguy : Another important thing to add which may nuance your understanding of the military's coup. The military in Egypt is a huge institution, running an em
73 Braniff747SP : I'm aware and appalled, but that's separate... Then that's just opening the door wide open.
74 mandala499 : I foresaw it. Choice 1: Egypt would have another military dictator being put in place initially through democratic means. Choice 2: Egypt would have
75 Post contains links OA260 : Surprise statement from the Tourism sector : Egypt ministry of tourism releases a surprise statement The Ministry of Tourism of the Arab Republic of E
76 Post contains links dreadnought : Why would it be a surprise? Tourism is a key part of the Egyptian economy - I've been there several times, from Cairo and Giza all the way down to Ab
77 us330 : I'm wondering if you could elaborate on the first part of the statement. I've seen photos of various protesters holding signs blaming Obama and the U
78 dreadnought : When the 'Democratically elected leader' wants Sharia Law and the opposition wants a more liberal, tolerant country, that's basically where you end u
79 OA260 : To actively come out and support the revolution is a surprise. Normally they hedge their bets in case the other side gains power again and dont make
80 Braniff747SP : I'm aware and appalled, but that's separate... I'm talking about precedent. This is dangerous; if, say, they elect ElBaredei, he'll have a cloud over
81 Post contains links AeroWesty : This isn't looking good. USA Today: At least 51 killed in Egypt clashes
82 Post contains links directorguy : The US, according to some media sources, tried to broker talks between Morsi and the opposition before he was deposed. It's almost a knee-jerk reacti
83 777way : Fishy perhaps part of some plan that flopped, also Egypt is said to be main base in Illumanti and their end times games.
84 Post contains images YVRLTN : Of course, but in 1933, the German people voted for the Nazi party, of which Hitler was the leader. It was convenient Hindeburg was old and died and
85 Post contains images Braniff747SP : Indeed. Everyone on this board thinks that guns are the answer to everything. I'd go north.
86 AyostoLeon : May I add a couple of observations? The first is that I see several comparisons between Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood and the situation in Germany
87 directorguy : I frequently read of comparisons between Egypt and Algeria/Iran/Turkey/Indonesia. Comparing Egypt and Germany is quite interesting, but there are a l
88 dreadnought : I think you miss the point. The comparison is not that Morsi used Hitler's methods - like you said, there are differences, probably mostly because Mo
89 Braniff747SP : That's not reserved to Islam. All non-secular governments are like this.
90 mandala499 : That shows how much of a nutcase he is. Is Egypt not a secular state then? Would you rather have Egypt be converted into a non-secular and probably a
91 Braniff747SP : Egypt under the MB was not a secular state. When the populace voted them in they knew what they where getting... I agree. I always liked Mubarak.
92 directorguy : Not really. The FJP (the political arm of the MB) promised people 'bread, justice, social equality' (the famous chant used during Jan 25). They playe
93 Braniff747SP : Then the opposition failed in making it known to them. That happens everywhere.
94 santi319 : True, but it seems to me only the Egyptians have the balls to stand up....
95 Post contains images mandala499 : Errr... say what? How was Morsi's "granting himself unlimited powers" be different from Hitler violating the Enabling Act, in terms of "intentions"?
96 Braniff747SP : Stand up? For what? Communitarianism? Asia is different. The quasi-renaissance happening there is rather fascinating. Then it's a circular argument,
97 Post contains links dreadnought : That remains to be seen. Egypt is very much up in the air right now. The provisional government wants to establish a new Constitution to replace the
98 AyostoLeon : "The opposition has no presence in the extremely uneducated... that's MB's domain..." This is the major reason for the failure of the opposition in th
99 dreadnought : Perhaps as open policy, but their local chapters had no such qualms. While the MB was in power, minority religious groups such as the Copts were unde
100 AyostoLeon : "Sharia does not belong in this century." In that I am in full agreement. I fully believe in a clear separation between the State and religion. While
101 Braniff747SP : Nothing in that article specifically talks about the MB. Religious-based law has no place in this century, yet here in the United States we pass asin
102 directorguy : Much has been made of the 'success' of Muslim-majority countries such as Turkey, Malaysia, and to a certain extent Indonesia (the focus is overwhelmi
103 AyostoLeon : "Instead of just temporarily weakening the MB, there should be a long-term plan to wipe out the conditions that made MB ideologies appear, and persist
104 Braniff747SP : Indeed. People where susceptible to the MB due to the conditions they where in. The question is, are they any less susceptible now?
105 photopilot : The real answer lies in education so that the younger generation won't want to live under a medieval system of religious laws. The Islamists prey on
106 AyostoLeon : @ photopilot " Not only Egypt, but all the other countries the Islamists are working hard to keep education from taking mass appeal." Education is a m
107 Post contains links YVRLTN : http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07...my-sinai-sweep-kills-10-militants/ 10 militants killed in Sinai - whoever is right or wrong, this is not the wa
108 DeltaMD90 : Anyone else feeling a bit more optimistic about the present situation? It's by no means optimal, but look at a lot of modern democracies... it came ab
109 photopilot : Well, in my case I'm watching Egypt with great interest. But it's also hard not to have rose-coloured glasses either and only see what I want to see.
110 Dreadnought : I'm not so sure. In the short term, the new government seems to have stabilized itself, but the MB is showing no intention to back off, nor any inter
111 Braniff747SP : Half the countries in the West have been in that situation. They can claim legitimacy--and they're right--but it doesn't mean anything; they're not g
112 Dreadnought : Name one which allows the persecution and murder of religious and other minorities. I'm not so sure. I think Egypt is on the path to becoming like Ir
113 Braniff747SP : Did Morsi's Egypt openly allow such things? You're right--it's not out of the realm of possibility.
114 Dreadnought : Oh yes. For the past year or so, Copts have been fleeing Egypt in record numbers, because of the persecution. Generally local Muslims would commit so
115 directorguy : Morsi certainly condoned hate speech. A few weeks before his removal, he organized a huge public rally at Cairo Stadium, where a bunch of Islamist sp
116 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Morsi was a nuisance for Egypt. All the merit goes to all those who participated into public protests in order to having him ousted. I hope the pro-M
117 Braniff747SP : Seems like bog-standard persecution of 'the other'.
118 pvjin : I hope Egypt will get a secular dictator who keeps all the religious extremists and other trash in strict order through military force if necessary an
119 Dreadnought : Hell has frozen over... we agree on something.
120 Post contains images Braniff747SP : That's practically what they had with Mubarak--that's why I always liked him.
121 directorguy : Didn't the Mubarak era nurture the Islamists and enable them to amass power and followers? In 1980, they were pretty much on the fringes of society a
122 DeltaMD90 : I think having a dictator that keeps the country in line is better than civil war/anarchy, but if I was an Egyptian, I sure wouldn't want to settle w
123 Braniff747SP : The Mubarak era merely served to anger some; after the revolution they where successful in pandering their story to those who already had cause to ag
124 DeltaMD90 : And who says having some government and having no government are the only options? That's called creating a false dilemma fallacy. There are more opt
125 Braniff747SP : I'm not exactly sure for what you're going here... In the strictest sense, there is or there isn't government. In the broader sense relating to Egypt
126 DeltaMD90 : Yeah, you could have no government or you could have government. But having government doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a mediocre government. S
127 MD11Engineer : Guys, you have to stop judging the events in Egypt from the viewpoint of countries with long established democratic traditions (and traditions of the
128 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Exactly. I said as much in Reply 108. Most of our Western democracies have had a crazy amount of bloodshed compared to what Egypt has had so far
129 Braniff747SP : I said as much. ...but he went to war with Iran. It isn't the only alternative to anarchy, it's just the best and most stable. The current situation
130 DeltaMD90 : Again, not a one to one comparison. If you want to find differences between Iraq and Egypt you can find a million. I'm talking about the similarities
131 Braniff747SP : That's not what I meant--the fact that the military has responded has delegitimized the democratic system making it inherently unstable for the futur
132 DeltaMD90 : I don't necessarily see it that way. It could be argued that Morsi went against democracy and was becoming dictatorish himself and the military remov
133 directorguy : Egypt, unlike virtually every other Arab country, sees itself as homogeneous. Egypt has a religious minority (Coptic Christians). In other Arab count
134 photopilot : Unless of course you happened to be Kurdish. They might disagree with your assessment. I don't believe any of the "dictators" that ran Egypt ever use
135 Braniff747SP : I would, but not under the pretenses to 'restore democracy'. Trust me, I'd love to see this more than anything... I'm just doubtful that it'll happen
136 DeltaMD90 : Ok read the context of what I said and the (at least) 2 times I said it's not a 1 to 1 comparison. My whole point was not celebrating a dictator that
137 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : Egypt braces for day of rival rallies - Thousands of army and police out in force in Cairo From Haaretz/AP: Gen. Abdel-Fattah El-Sissi's call to take
138 Braniff747SP : Right, but I explained the problem with this earlier on--the fact that the military overthrew him is what makes this 1) illegitimate and 2) sets up f
139 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : What? This is a little reminder what Egyptians have been through since 8 months! Read here: For The Record - The IPT Blog Morsi Threatens Opponents E
140 Braniff747SP : I know well what they have done. For one, they brought it upon themselves; secondly, what they have been through does not disqualify the fact that th
141 Aesma : Well democracy is a process, not a fixed state of affairs. No revolution has gotten from a dictatorship/tyranny/whatever to democracy in a couple of d
142 DeltaMD90 : I agree... but I think the Morsi that got overthrown was not the Morsi democratically elected. There is a difference between bad leaders that follow
143 Post contains images Braniff747SP : That's the French for you. Indeed. This is true--I concede that point. This is where we reach dubious waters. Always a pleasure.
144 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : RT At least 74 dead, over 700 injured in Egypt clashes - Health Ministry (PHOTOS) http://rt.com/news/egypt-dead-clashes-brotherhood-664/ Norwegian med
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