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Egypt: Crunch Time Approaches  
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12515 posts, RR: 35
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3688 times:

The Egyptian army has given Pres. Morsi and the opposition 48 hours to resolve the current crisis ... a timeframe which expires today.

State media has already announced that President Morsi will either resign or be ousted. It appears that the president has no such intention.

Rival groups - supporting and opposing the president are gathered in Cairo. Needless to say, the president's supporters will see any such move by the army as a coup.

It seems that there is a stalemate ... a stalemate that is likely to be broken very violently.

http://news.sky.com/story/1110850/eg...sis-meeting-held-as-deadline-looms

Will Mohammed Morsi still be president 72, 48 or even 24hrs from now?
How will the Muslim brotherhood react?
How will the army react to their reaction?
Will we see General Al-Sisi become president, even for a limited time?

144 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

I have a few Egyptian friends and one of them posted this morning:

"And for all the media out there that question the Egyptian people living in egypt for protesting after 1 year of 'electing' their president. They are not being unrealistic, they have given enough time. YOU go live in a country where you can't afford bread, vegetables, eggs, oil. Water cut offs daily, electricity cuts all day long. No police. The price of medicine goes up everyday, literally. You can negotiate your exchange rate on the dollar. That's if you even have dollars. In one year, the standard of living has declined so poorly that no one should tolerate. So please SHUT UP! You have NO idea what it's like. Go live there for a week amongst the common people and see how you feel. At least during mubaraks time, these were minor issues in relation to what the people wanted then. Now they demand the basics of mankind."

And the post from Tarek Heggy doing the rounds I think explains in additional detail:

I could understand that a person who does not deal with the Middle East is to believe that the Ikhwan (The Muslim Brothers) are a political movement that accepts democracy in full. But a true Middle East expert knows rather well that Islamism and Democracy are 100% foes. When someone innocently says : Mohamed Morsy was democratically elected, I immediately expound : that both Adolf Hitler and Ismail Hanyiah of Palestine were also democratically elected ! but was Morsy truly elected ? No, he was not. I was personally told by the DCM (deputy chief of mission) at the USA Embassy in Cairo that Ahmed Shafeeq was the winner, but the Americans wanted Morsy to avoid a blood bath in case Ahmed Shafeeq became Egypt's President. I am currently working on a hearing session (under the oath) at the USA Congress concerning this particular point. Today, we have 33 million Egyptians who declared patently clear on 30th June, 2013 that Egyptians do not want the Muslim Brothers to rule Egypt anymore after a year during which Morsy was not only a rounded failure but a radical Islamist who spent his 365 days doing only one thing : radicalization of Egypt. It is totally incorrect to picturize what is taking place in Egypt as a split between those who are pro Morsy and those who are anti Morsy. The reality of the matter is that we have a majority that is pro civil Egypt and a minority that is pro an Islamist Egypt. It is also correct that Morsy's supports include a large number of terrorists. I am someone who spent the past four decades studying and writing about Political Islam and therefore give myself the right to claim that saying that Morsy is legitimate is a replica of what happened in Europe in the 1930s when some kept saying that Hitler was legitimate.

-----

Not long after Morsi took over, the Egyptian parliament debated banning bikinis in Egypt. For me that about summed it up, and the old adage "be careful what you wish for" sprung to mind.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

The MuSSolini Timer

http://morsitimer.com/

Tic Toc Tic Toc Tic...

     

Crowd at Tahrir Square (live feed)

http:// rt.com/ on-air/opposition-rally-egypt-morsi/

(please paste link together)

  

[Edited 2013-07-03 06:55:59]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

The situation at the moment is very volatile. The military issued an ultimatum to the president 2 days ago, giving him 48 hours to either 'fulfill wishes or the people' or the military would implement its own 'roadmap'. The President responded by giving a 45-minute rant/hate speech on TV, where he essentially made no sign of backing down or seeking to accommodate the protesters. Those 48 hours are almost up.
The Muslim Brotherhood are delusional in thinking they have the support of the street of the common Egyptian. In every city, you have massive gatherings that certainly eclipse anything seen in 2011. In his speech, Morsi referred to his 'legitimacy' 50 times, and is using the fact that he came to power through democratic elections as a pretext to stay in power. He does not appreciate the irony that Mubarak, in 2011, was the legitimate president, and yet people insisted that he go. Morsi was never popular to begin with. Perhaps not everyone is familiar with this, but Morsi ran against a Mubarak-era politician with a military background who was seen as an unsavoury choice for president by many. Many people voted for Morsi not because they were Islamist, but because they wanted a civilian president, or a president who didn't remind them of Mubarak (agree or disagree, these were the reasons for millions).
As offloader rightly puts it, scratch an Islamist and you'll find how regressive, violent, and anti-democratic they can be. So many in Egypt who voted for him forgot this, or (temporarily) deluded themselves otherwise. Although I did not vote for Morsi, and hated him from day one, even I am surprised (but deeply thankful) at how quick people exposed him and his group for the frauds they are on a nationwide scale.
My hope is that the military will force Morsi to stand down, assemble a provisional government involving liberal figures such as El Baradei or Amr Moussa, and pave the way for a proper constitution, proper presidential elections, and a proper people's assembly. If the MB were smart, they would back down, lick their wounds in a corner and bide their time. But then again, they're not that smart, given how their president threatened the


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
Not long after Morsi took over, the Egyptian parliament debated banning bikinis in Egypt. For me that about summed it up, and the old adage "be careful what you wish for" sprung to mind.

Sounds like the Muslin Brotherhood hasn't learned the value of what "a chicken in every pot" would do for the country. Debating social issues before maintaining the infrastructure to keep economic order in the country is shameful.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Sounds like the Muslin Brotherhood hasn't learned

You'd think that they'd cotton on . . .  


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 5):
cotton on

A great underutilized idiom. Well done!   

ETA: And now I'm smacking myself, because I just realized what you did there!  tongue   laughing 

[Edited 2013-07-03 08:21:49]


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo250/parisquilts/MorsiTimer_zps0aeda85d.jpg


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12515 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

The army is currently consulting various factions - but the Muslim Brotherhood has refused to meet the army to discuss the situation.

The situation now seems to be very fluid. The MB is - according to Al Jazeera - alleging that a military coup is under way and has that it would stand between tanks and the president.

President says he is willing to sacrifice his blood for the sake of Egypt.

As yet, no independent verification of what is happening.

http://www.aljazeera.com/


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3526 times:

This is another live feed from Cairo

It shows Tahrir Square but also moves to different places in the city

There is one huge avenue with massive crowds

Maybe it's the Pro-Mursi protesters?

http:// www.livestream. com/ontveglive

(please paste the link)



[Edited 2013-07-03 09:10:24]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1599 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Very dirty actions by the army.

Like him or not, Morsi is the legitimate elected president of Egypt.

Same goes for the parliament which various parties have tried to discredit.

Elections have consequences and people need to respect the results and let the winners govern. If you don't like the outcome, better luck at the next election.

Using the army to push around civilian government is not the answer.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
http:// www.livestream. com/ontveglive

(please paste the link)

tinyurl.com can solve these kinds of problems for you. Example: http://tinyurl.com/TahrirLive



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 10):
Using the army to push around civilian government is not the answer.

I would normally agree, but we are talking about the Muslim Brotherhood here. Any reason should be taken to remove them from power and line them up against the wall. They are no better than Nazis.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5758 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

A coup is under way. We were lucky to be in Cairo last December and only spoke to one person who supported Morsi -- and even that was qualified.

GOOD LUCK TO THE ORDINARY PEOPLE OF EGYPT, particularly all the people below. May Allah be with you!
        

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c07.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c08.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c19.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c09-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c04-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c03-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c29.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c21.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c06-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c16.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Braybuddy/c26.jpg

[Edited 2013-07-03 09:46:38]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3478 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 1):
"And for all the media out there that question the Egyptian people living in egypt for protesting after 1 year of 'electing' their president. They are not being unrealistic, they have given enough time. YOU go live in a country where you can't afford bread, vegetables, eggs, oil. Water cut offs daily, electricity cuts all day long. No police. The price of medicine goes up everyday, literally. You can negotiate your exchange rate on the dollar. That's if you even have dollars. In one year, the standard of living has declined so poorly that no one should tolerate. So please SHUT UP! You have NO idea what it's like. Go live there for a week amongst the common people and see how you feel. At least during mubaraks time, these were minor issues in relation to what the people wanted then. Now they demand the basics of mankind."

This is one of the most useful things I've read so far. I've heard about the protestors and their demands, but never been explained what the grievances are.

Sadly, if they replace one theocratic dictator with another, the outcome will be no different.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3477 times:

Egypt uprising: the pictures the mainstream media will not show you

15 Photos From the Tahrir Square Protests You'll Never See In Legacy Media. #Egypt #Morsi #Obama

http://directorblue.blogspot.fr/2013...s-from-tahrir-square-protests.html

  

EGYPT’S MURSI IS DETAINED, TAKEN TO MILITARY HOUSE:AL ARABIYA

At least 37 people have been killed and 1600 injured in violence since Tuesday night, Al Arabiya correspondent reports

 Wow!

Twitter feeds:

Military vehicles heading in direction of pro Morsi rally
https://twitter.com/kfahim/status/352460211207933953/photo/1

NewsBreaker ‏@NewsBreaker 1m
NOW: @kfahim: "Islamists fighting with officers. Commander orders soldiers down from vehicles" near Nasr City, Egypt pic.twitter.com/7Lqkj8vbp2

Kareem Fahim ‏@kfahim 2m
Islamists climb on top of armoured vehicles. "Your our military!"

Soldiers fire in the air to disperse Islamists
https://twitter.com/kfahim/status/352462851887230976/photo/1

Gun shots at #Rabaa now. NOW. People running, screaming. #Rabaa

The army bans any presidential statements on State TV
Finally the Islamist travel ban by the military is confirmed by MENA
After #Giza, the army steadily deploys in Cairo #Egypt #Tamarod #SCAF

The military are being deployed to separate the pro-Morsi protesters at Rabaa Al-Adawiya Mosque and the anti-Morsi demonstrators in front of the headquarters of the Ittihadiya presidential guard, reports Ahram Arabic.

i could go on and on...

Edited:

@jenanmoussa: "@AlArabiya: [Egypt Pres] Morsi being moved to Ministry of Defense for his own protection."



 Wow!

[Edited 2013-07-03 10:15:30]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3873 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 3):
Many people voted for Morsi not because they were Islamist, but because they wanted a civilian president, or a president who didn't remind them of Mubarak (agree or disagree, these were the reasons for millions).

No explanation/elaboration needed. This happens all the time in elections--picking the guy you dislike the least based on the information at the time. My late grandfather once told me that while he voted in every presidential election, he only actually voted "for" someone once or twice--the rest of the times, he voted "against" a candidate.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3447 times:

BREAKING FROM EGYPT Mohammed Mursi no longer in power, State newspaper reports - @CNN

let's hope this is true

karma for the brotherhood and their nasty tactics

     

Edited:

[19:59] Military source: State of emergency will be declared in Egypt following army statement
https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/live-coverage-egypt-protests

 alert 

[Edited 2013-07-03 10:41:12]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

I'm certainly not a supporter of Morsi or the MB, but don't forget the military is part of the problem. The military owns most of the economy.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

This is a really great picture

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q71/s720x720/1016097_10151574042143763_8679362_n.jpg

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25737 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Shame yet again an elected government is subverted by a military coup.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

This is a picture of army trucks deployment ner Islamis gathering in Cairo

https://twitter.com/samy_qaid/status/352468827826688000/photo/1


Edited:
Muslim Brotherhood will hold press conference at 10pm (9pm GMT) on latest developments in Egypt.

  

[Edited 2013-07-03 11:16:17]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Mega-party at Tahrir Square!!!

Lasers and fireworks abound!

Supreme Constitutional Court deputy chief justice Adly Mansour is president of Egypt

Edited:

BREAKING: Morsi's aide says Egyptian leader has been moved to an undisclosed location.

           

[Edited 2013-07-03 12:24:04]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 17):

karma for the brotherhood and their nasty tactics

Regardless, he was a democratically elected leader. I had no problem with Mubarak, but since they ousted him this was the best they could hope for. If they ever do elections, the same thing will happen.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):

Mega-party at Tahrir Square!!!

And what are they expecting now?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/midd...egypt-countdown-army-deadline-live

this website provides live updates...



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineFatmirJusufi From Albania, joined Jan 2009, 2441 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

It's official now — Le coup d'etat!


DO FLIGHTS. NOT FIGHTS.
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Where did they get so many fireworks ? Was an official holiday coming up ???


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3417 times:

The atmosphere at Tahrir Square tonight is freaking unreal

http://rt.co m/on-air/oppo sition-rally-egypt-morsi/

Party like an Egyptian!

  

A Coup?!

This is PURE democracy in action!

  

[Edited 2013-07-03 13:03:09]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Simply put, Morsi was an incompetent president. He presided over a year in which his cohorts tried to impose their will and influence on every single institution in Egypt. The rate of inflation was practically double. The constitution he rammed down our throats was a farce. He did not deal with a single issue. He would either postpone it, or rely on a Qatari bailout to fix it, or make grand rhetorical statements that never translated into action. People only voted for a radical Islamist group on the basis that he would 'fix' the country's woes, and admittedly the public was very vigilant in checking him every step of the way, and even that didn't help. He was at one point ruling by decree. Had he continued his full term, Egypt would have deteriorated further in every single aspect. When he came to power, the economy had hit rock bottom, and tourism was in bad shape. A year later, the economy, shall we say, had fallen off the proverbial cliff, and tourist arrivals had decreased. All his political decisions were made with one end in mind-cementing his party's hold on power. Every time he invited the opposition/liberals for political dialogue, it would end in shambles. Every time a crisis would happen, nearly all of Morsi's non-Muslim Brotherhood cabinet members would resign in protest.
People forget that Mubarak was equally the legitimate president of Egypt in January 2011. Yet when Egyptians demanded his ouster I do not recall Western media suggesting that he should stay on because he was the 'legitimate' president.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27106 posts, RR: 60
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3390 times:

Good news for Egypt. Im sure the Coptic Christians are going to sleep a bit better now. Lets see what replaces Morsi. You never know with these things.

User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2558 posts, RR: 7
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
Mega-party at Tahrir Square!!!

They had a big party when Mubarak left too - are we going to see these "parties" every year?
Don't care for the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi was their puppet, but as others have said, they won a free election fair and square and military coups rarely end up being beneficial to the masses. Hoping the best for the good people of Egypt


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 28):
People forget that Mubarak was equally the legitimate president of Egypt in January 2011. Yet when Egyptians demanded his ouster I do not recall Western media suggesting that he should stay on because he was the 'legitimate' president.

I believe the question of whether this is how Egypt views democracy is supposed to work is a valid question for the news media to ask. It doesn't suggest that Morsy stay on, it helps define the situation for westerners who don't swarm squares and issue ultimatums to their elected leaders in public votes of no confidence in their government's legitimacy.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):

Shame yet again an elected government is subverted by a military coup.

The real shame is that some people tolerate the intolerant (and intolerable).

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 23):
Regardless, he was a democratically elected leader.

Democracy is not the be-all and end-all of all authority.

From the US Declaration of Independence:

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

You cannot ask for a better definition for the Right of Revolution than this - and notice that there is no exclusion to whether the despotic government in question is a monarch or democratically elected.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 28):
People only voted for a radical Islamist group on the basis that he would 'fix' the country's woes,

Not to mention the millions of illiterates who believed their local imams that it was their duty as muslims to vote for the Muslim Brotherhood.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 28):

Thank you for your reports. We are lucky to have you!

Tahrir Square is going haywire tonight! Oh what a night!!!!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 29):
Lets see what replaces Morsi. You never know with these things.

Coming from Twitter

911 Operator ‏@911BUFF 3m
INTERIOR MINISTER ORDERED SHUT DOWN ALL RELIGION SATELLITE CHANNELS. THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD CHANNEL AND HAFIZ THE SALAFI ARE NOW OFF LINE.


NewsBreaker ‏@NewsBreaker 27s
NOW: NBC's Peter Alexander reports Pres Obama is in the White House meeting with advisers on Egypt.


Military vehicles tightly surround the pro #morsi protest in nasr city
#Egypt #AFP


#BREAKING: #Assad says whats happening in #Egypt is the fall of political Islam


#Morsi is reportedly speaking at pro -#Morsi sit-in at Rabaa Al-Adiwaya mosque in Cairo saying he is still president #egypt (recorded)


 Wow!


OH ERDOGAAAAAAN, YOU'RE NEXT!! MUAHAHA!

         



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27106 posts, RR: 60
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
The real shame is that some people tolerate the intolerant (and intolerable).

Very well said .

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
Not to mention the millions of illiterates who believed their local imams that it was their duty as muslims to vote for the Muslim Brotherhood.

Exactly the wonders of these evil men that say they are religious . They are the worst of society IMHO.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5842 posts, RR: 4
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

I wonder if Egyptair crew who demanded to be allowed to wear hijab and won will now be forced to drop it.

Also surprised at some disappointed members here, seems like they were they hoping for destruction of Egypt and more slander for Islam? wonder which camp they belong to, obvious?

[Edited 2013-07-03 14:10:04]

User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3302 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27):

This is PURE democracy in action!

A military coup? No. Democracy would entail a simple recall election. Democracy has nothing to do with force.

God knows where Egypt will go now that they're in military control.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
Democracy is not the be-all and end-all of all authority.

Of course not. It's tyranny by majority. But to ensure a democratic system one must go through diplomatic channels.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27106 posts, RR: 60
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 35):
I wonder if Egyptair crew who demanded to be allowed to wear hijab and won will now be forced to drop it.

Egyptians have more things to worry about than wearing hijab! Like how they intend to feed their kids and revive the economy. Also the ethnic minorities who were being actively cleansed out of the country.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5842 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3264 times:

I know but still, interesting if its reversed.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27106 posts, RR: 60
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 38):
I know but still, interesting if its reversed.

I don't believe it should be reversed if that's what they truly want as long as they realise they cant enforce it where other FA's don't want it. That's the problem with an issue like this down the line does the FA who doesn't want it get ignored and feel less of a crew member because she decides she doesn't want it. That would be my concern.

There should be freedom for all citizens in Egypt within the law and they should not do what Morsi was trying to do and make minorities feel second class and made to leave the country. It was going in a very dangerous direction.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

looks like Morsi has walked like an Egyption

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8631 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

In Egypt, they are still new to democracy and experimenting with it. Good for them.

Right now approval of US Congress is well below 20%. Our democracy might benefit from 10 million people marching and leveling the Capitol, letting all the corrupt hangers-on and thieving maggots scurry out. Public engagement is public engagement.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 42, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Quoting ER757 (Reply 30):
they won a free election fair and square

They (probably) got the majority of the votes, that doesn't make it a fair and square (or free) election. The political landscape was chaotic, it would be like a US election with one big party with supporters against dozens of small opposing parties, no free press, no informed people... If so many people here think that that was a free election, I guess even in democratic countries people don't understand what democracy is.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 43, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 26):
Where did they get so many fireworks ? Was an official holiday coming up ???

It's the Fourth of July tomorrow, duh  

It's too early for me to celebrate, for the future of Egypt is very uncertain. I hope them all the best. As different as the culture was to mine, they were a very friendly people



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5842 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 39):

Yes its optional and not imposed.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
Egyptians have more things to worry about than wearing hijab! Like how they intend to feed their kids and revive the economy.

Well a big part of the economy was tourism, and the signals the MB was sending were not helping tourism at all.

I mean, recently they put a new governor in charge of Luxor that was a member of Gamaa Islamiya, the militant group responsible for the 1997 Luxor massacre !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 36):
Of course not. It's tyranny by majority. But to ensure a democratic system one must go through diplomatic channels.

They tried that. Morsi responded by announcing Rule-By-Decree and other such tactics.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 45):
Well a big part of the economy was tourism, and the signals the MB was sending were not helping tourism at all.

Last I heard, tourism was down over 40% per year since 2011, maybe more.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 10):
Very dirty actions by the army.

Like him or not, Morsi is the legitimate elected president of Egypt.

The military serves the people, and the people have spoken. Morsi and the MB are considered a danger to society by the majority.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 36):
A military coup? No. Democracy would entail a simple recall election. Democracy has nothing to do with force.

Good luck with that. The Muslim Brotherhood would scoff at such an idea.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 36):
God knows where Egypt will go now that they're in military control.

The people are well represented by the opposition leaders. They will govern Egypt while new elections are held.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 28):
A couple of differences. First, Mubarak was part of the military establishment, having risen in its ranks. Theorectically elected but could only remain in office with the support of the military. Second, the response in the West was initially cautious. While there were calls to not use excessive force against protesters, and then prompts to introduce reforms, the attitude only become one of support for Mubarak doing when it became clear that he enjoyed little support inthe wider population and more crucially could no longer count on the military.

In constrast, Morsi has never enjoyed the support of the military establishment or a large sector of the judiciary. The judiciary had tried its level best to frustrate whatever plans Morsi may have had and his resorting to enhance his position by decree did nothing to strengthen his popular base. So now he is gone and some prominent MB members are now guests of the military.

The military has promised fresh elections and the drafting of a new constitution. Hopefully two things will occur. One, the interim government will be able to address some of the economic issues, though with continuing uncertainty that remains difficult. Two, that a constitution that provides for a state that's both secular and democratic is drafted and approved by a clear majority.

My best wishes to the people of Egypt in these difficult times.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
Morsi responded by announcing Rule-By-Decree and other such tactics.

And the military will be different?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 47):
The people are well represented by the opposition leaders. They will govern Egypt while new elections are held.

Really? And then, if they even get to elections... the military holds the right to kick them out?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3041 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 49):
And the military will be different?

They aren't Islamofascists, so they are a step in the right direction.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 49):
Really? And then, if they even get to elections... the military holds the right to kick them out?

In some cases, yes. Read the Declaration of Independence.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3024 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 49):
Really? And then, if they even get to elections... the military holds the right to kick them out?

If they turn into a bunch of jihadist autocrats, yes. By giving Morsi and the MB the boot, the people are sending the message that they will not tolerate Islamist rule. They fought too hard, and spilled too much blood to let that happen. This may be the 21st century, but they have to earn their sovereign rights like the rest of the free world did. That means using force to protect it. The people of Egypt understand that, and the international community must stay out of their business while they sort it out.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Today is the Muslim Brotherhood Day of Rage. Crowds are marching in direction of the Republican Guards HQ trying to free Morsi.

RT:
10 dead, over 200 injured in clashes between Egyptian protesters - Health Ministry
Egypt's health ministry has said that ten people were killed and over 200 in clashes between pro- and anti-Morsi protesters on Friday. The most violent are at the 6th October bridge near Tahrir, amid reports of gunfire and Molotov cocktails.
http://rt.com/news/clashes-cairo-protesters-gunfire-713/

Twitter:
@RT_com: RT @PaulaSlier_RT: Al-Qaeda supporters take over govt buildings in #Sinai, lower Egyptian flag and raise Al-Qaeda one

Live feed from Cairo in Arabic. Tahrir Square and Pro-Morsi protesters
http://wwitv.com/tv_channels/b6302-ONTV-Egypt.htm

     



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 52):
Today is the Muslim Brotherhood Day of Rage

It is encouraging when the MB has to resort to flat-out lies to rile people up.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4401220,00.html

Brotherhood website: Egypt's interim president is Jewish



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 36):
A military coup? No. Democracy would entail a simple recall election. Democracy has nothing to do with force.

Let's see...
Egypt's dictatorship ended with the military basically doing a coup and returned the country to democracy, it failed, because the election ended up picking a dictator wannabe, so the military did it again. As long as no-one in the military says, "OK, screw democracy, we're here to stay in power", then so be it.

How many dictators in the world started by winning elections? Hitler was one. Phillipines' Marcos was another... am sure there are more to that list.

Let's see, how did Marcos get toppled? Oh yeah, a military backed civil movement... much like Egypt's...

Morsi played his cards wrong in his move to become a dictator... If you wait until the next election, by then he'd have changed the laws to enable him to stay.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 49):
And the military will be different?

Would you rather eat and wait for democracy or elect and not eat?
You're 16-20? Wait until you got children to feed and the above choice becomes one you have to make...
Ruin a country and people will put a functioning state before democracy!



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 50):
They aren't Islamofascists, so they are a step in the right direction.

I dislike the Muslim Brotherhood as much as the next guy, but they where legitimately elected; that's all I'm saying.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 50):
Read the Declaration of Independence.

Has nothing to do with foreign nations.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 51):
the people

No, the military.

In a democracy, the military is controlled by the civilian government. When the military decides to take action against the legitimate government of the state it delegitimizes the political institution and the democratic system. It brings us into a slippery slope: if there is another elected leader, he will live with the shadow of the military over him and not the other way around.

The military's place is not to decide who runs the country, irrespective of protests and the like.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 54):
Egypt's dictatorship ended with the military basically doing a coup and returned the country to democracy, it failed, because the election ended up picking a dictator wannabe, so the military did it again. As long as no-one in the military says, "OK, screw democracy, we're here to stay in power", then so be it.

That's no sign of a true democracy. They basically are saying 'screw democracy' as they are deposing the leader. A majority of Egyptians voted for him; If, then they decided didn't like it they should have simply voted him out at the next election cycle.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 54):
Hitler was one

Not really. He broke the law when he gave himself full powers.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 54):
Morsi played his cards wrong in his move to become a dictator... If you wait until the next election, by then he'd have changed the laws to enable him to stay.

Then we'd be having a different discussion.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 54):
Ruin a country and people will put a functioning state before democracy!

They should have thought of that before they toppled Mubarak.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 50):
Read the Declaration of Independence.

Has nothing to do with foreign nations.

Sure it has. The Declaration is one of Natural Rights, universal in scope, and valid for everyone on earth. It's not a legal document, it's a philosophical one.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
That's no sign of a true democracy.

Democracy is not the be-all and end-all authority. Unrestricted democracy is nothing but mob-rule, minority rights be damned.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
Not really. He broke the law when he gave himself full powers.

Which Morsi tried to do as well. The point is that even in free elections, the people sometimes vote in pure evil.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 56):
The Declaration is one of Natural Rights, universal in scope, and valid for everyone on earth. It's not a legal document, it's a philosophical one.

The Declaration is an expression of what the people wanted. If others agree, that's great.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 56):
Democracy is not the be-all and end-all authority. Unrestricted democracy is nothing but mob-rule, minority rights be damned.

Of course. Striaght democracy is tyranny by majority; that's why we have quasi-utilitarian governments.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 56):
Which Morsi tried to do as well. The point is that even in free elections, the people sometimes vote in pure evil.

Tried to do being the key... had he done it, that'd been a different story.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2692 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
Not really. He broke the law when he gave himself full powers.

How so? Please enlighten me how he got from an elected/appointed Chancellor according to the constitution, and ended up as head of state? As far as I remember, it was all done through his lawmakers at the Reichstag/Parliament where he has a majority. Not anyone in the German Supreme Court objected to Hitler's move through the laws made, neither did the military. Look at where Germany's democracy ended up? So, if you say that Morsi should have stayed because he was a democratically elected president and/or he got to where he was in accordance to the law, then Hitler should have stayed too. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Seriously, I see little difference between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Nazis with their brownshirt Sturmabteilung. As a muslim, I distrust the Muslim Brotherhood. The methods of 'persuasion, coercion and intimidation" is similar. The difference between traditional Fasicsts and these so-called Islamofascists we keep hearing and seeing today, are different only in the religion used as the cover/tool/method.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 57):
Tried to do being the key.

So it's OK only because he didn't succeed? What happens when he does succeed, enabled the laws to make him a dictator, what would you say then?

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
They should have thought of that before they toppled Mubarak.

And when you have a functioning state, then the next thing one would wish for is democracy... that's what they did. So you as someone who prefers a democratically elected government, now say, they shouldn't have toppled Mubarak the dictator? Dude, you're like democracy gone headless... which one do you want?   



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 58):
ow so? Please enlighten me how he got from an elected/appointed Chancellor according to the constitution, and ended up as head of state?

Sure. Hitler was appointed to the Chancellorship legally by von Hindenburg; however, when von Hindenburg died, Hitler needed to consolidate the offices for absolute power. These actions violated the so-called Enabling Act; Hitler could pass laws that went contrary to the Republic's constitution, but the Enabling Act forbade him from touching the powers of the presidency, which is what he did.

If I'm wrong, someone do point it out--this is what I remember from some time ago.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 58):
Not anyone in the German Supreme Court objected to Hitler's move through the laws made, neither did the military

Of course not. Anyone who'd have gone against the will of Hitler would have not lasted long.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 58):
So, if you say that Morsi should have stayed because he was a democratically elected president and/or he got to where he was in accordance to the law, then Hitler should have stayed too. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Like it or not, Morsi hadn't established himself as a supreme ruler of anything.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 58):
As a muslim, I distrust the Muslim Brotherhood. The methods of 'persuasion, coercion and intimidation" is similar. The difference between traditional Fasicsts and these so-called Islamofascists we keep hearing and seeing today, are different only in the religion used as the cover/tool/method.

Agreed.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 58):
So it's OK only because he didn't succeed? What happens when he does succeed, enabled the laws to make him a dictator, what would you say then?

Apart from the fact that he tried being debatable, checks and balances worked and they didn't let him. Had they made him a dictator, then I'd have supported the army's actions.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 58):
So you as someone who prefers a democratically elected government, now say, they shouldn't have toppled Mubarak the dictator?

Did I say that?

Democracy is an inherently better system of government because it appeases the people by giving them certain inalienable rights; governmental legitimacy is upheld and the government is more likely to survive.

Now, with Mubarak specifically, I didn't--and this is as an outsider, of course; I understand the motivations of Egyptians--have a problem with him. He was a secular, pro-West dictator who did not control every aspect of his people's lives and whose citizens lived with relatively high levels of autonomy.

Of course, there is the distinction that Mubarak was not toppled; he left of his own will, which adds a whole different layer to the debate.

[Edited 2013-07-05 22:21:05]


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7689 posts, RR: 3
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2639 times:

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the Bill of Rights, can any group, Military or Civil simply overthrow an elected Govt if they don't like it. Who decides which people have a voice, or is it down to how many guns you have.

User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 59):
Democracy is an inherently better system of government because it appeases the people by giving them certain inalienable rights;

No, no, no. There are no 'inalienable rights' recognized within a true democracy. That is why countries normally put in place Constitutions which A) define what the government can do and/or define what those inaliable rights are.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 60):
Perhaps I am misunderstanding the Bill of Rights, can any group, Military or Civil simply overthrow an elected Govt if they don't like it. Who decides which people have a voice, or is it down to how many guns you have.

It's not the Bill of Rights, It's the Declaration of Independence, which was a reiteration of principles dating back to the Magna Carta, and expounded upon by John Locke, of whom Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration, was a great fan. Locke declared that under natural law, all people have the right to life, liberty, and property, and under the social contract, the people could instigate a revolution against the government when it acted against the interests of citizens, to replace the government with one that served the interests of citizens. In some cases, Locke deemed revolution an obligation. Jefferson added language explaining that the right of revolution should not be used frivolously, as people will inevitably be hurt, but at some point the duty becomes inescapable.

When the Bill of Rights was written, the right to bear arms was written to ensure that the people retained the power to revolt if needed.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 62, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
A majority of Egyptians voted for him; If, then they decided didn't like it they should have simply voted him out at the next election cycle.

That's not democracy. Democracy includes voting but also the right to actually vote and be a candidate (in the election, most candidates weren't able to run, so Morsi's main opponent was a military puppet, not a great choice), free press, right of association, SEPARATION OF POWERS, etc. Most of those lacked in Egypt. If Morsi had been elected in these conditions but then steered the country in the right direction, starting with a reasonable constitution most people agreed on, then it would be fine. But instead he pushed through a bad constitution, took away the legislative and judicial powers, etc.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 59):
Democracy is an inherently better system of government because it appeases the people by giving them certain inalienable rights; governmental legitimacy is upheld and the government is more likely to survive.

Well the day 100 millions US citizens are in the streets we'll see if the US president can stay in power.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 61):
There are no 'inalienable rights' recognized within a true democracy.

There have to be; the right to life, for example. The social contract puts the government into place to protect those rights, and to curtail others for the protection of our collective rights.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 61):
place Constitutions which A) define what the government can do and/or define what those inaliable rights are.

Of course. A constitution lays the framework for the government and how it must operate to protect its citizens.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 62):

Well the day 100 millions US citizens are in the streets we'll see if the US president can stay in power.

A coup in the United States would mean the fall of the United States.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 64, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 63):
There have to be; the right to life, for example. The social contract puts the government into place to protect those rights, and to curtail others for the protection of our collective rights.

Not necessarily. In a pure democracy, If the majority decide that all Jews should be killed, nothing stands in their way (and such has happened many times, even in a democracy)

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 63):
A coup in the United States would mean the fall of the United States.

Not really. How many revolutions, overthrows has France had in the past 250 years? How many times have they scrapped their constitution and replaced it with a new one? Yet France is still there.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 64):
If the majority decide that all Jews should be killed, nothing stands in their way (and such has happened many times, even in a democracy)

Of course. That's unmoderated democracy. That doesn't work; it is tyranny by majority.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 64):
Yet France is still there.

And radically changed. If the US suffered a coup, it would not be the US that we would know today.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 64):
Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos

 Big grin

[Edited 2013-07-06 10:05:35]


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 66, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
That's no sign of a true democracy. They basically are saying 'screw democracy' as they are deposing the leader. A majority of Egyptians voted for him; If, then they decided didn't like it they should have simply voted him out at the next election cycle.

Morsi had undermined the entire process of the modern democratic system the moment he began hijacking all the institutions that could curb him and keep him in check. Maintaining a system of checks and balances is equally important as the ballot box.
All the signs pointed that in 2016, the Muslim Brotherhood would somehow have managed to intimidate/terrorize/rig their way into winning the presidency again. By then they would have been more entrenched, had their plan worked. Every few weeks literally there would be some sort of crisis and tensions would flare up again.
To say nothing of the fact that the MB were doing nothing to fix the economy, which was in a very, very bad state. The Morsi government was living off foreign aid and did not even have a fiscal policy; I doubt they even knew what 'fiscal' means. Three more years of this and we'd be in a much worse place than now.

_
[/quote]

Quoting Aesma (Reply 62):
That's not democracy. Democracy includes voting but also the right to actually vote and be a candidate (in the election, most candidates weren't able to run, so Morsi's main opponent was a military puppet, not a great choice), free press, right of association, SEPARATION OF POWERS, etc. Most of those lacked in Egypt. If Morsi had been elected in these conditions but then steered the country in the right direction, starting with a reasonable constitution most people agreed on, then it would be fine. But instead he pushed through a bad constitution, took away the legislative and judicial powers, etc.

Agree completely.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 59):
Apart from the fact that he tried being debatable, checks and balances worked and they didn't let him. Had they made him a dictator, then I'd have supported the army's actions.

Ah, but his plans at 'national reconciliation' were a farce. Morsi and his group did not listen to anyone but themselves. The checks and balances that you speak of did not exist. We did not have a People's Assembly, the president was ruling by decree, he was shutting everyone out, non-MB cabinet members and advisers were resigning left and right, and significantly, his party was 100% behind him. There was no mechanism for anyone to balance this guy.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2550 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 66):
Maintaining a system of checks and balances is equally important as the ballot box.

This is key. Checks and balances are [i[very[/i] important; a military coup does not qualify under any standard of the term.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 66):
To say nothing of the fact that the MB were doing nothing to fix the economy, which was in a very, very bad state. The Morsi government was living off foreign aid and did not even have a fiscal policy; I doubt they even knew what 'fiscal' means. Three more years of this and we'd be in a much worse place than now.

Agreed completely. I strongly dislike the MB as I do with all religion-based organizations; I am strongly of the opinion that government should be a secularist operation. We don't even have that in the US, so it's hard to get.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 66):
There was no mechanism for anyone to balance this guy.

So it had to be done by force?

You got Mubarak out after 30 years by being on the streets. That was a legitimate resignation of a legitimate head of state. This was done at gunpoint, removing all sense of any sort of legitimacy. When someone seizes power, you loose all of that.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 62):

That's not democracy. Democracy includes voting but also the right to actually vote and be a candidate (in the election, most candidates weren't able to run, so Morsi's main opponent was a military puppet, not a great choice), free press, right of association, SEPARATION OF POWERS, etc. Most of those lacked in Egypt. If Morsi had been elected in these conditions but then steered the country in the right direction, starting with a reasonable constitution most people agreed on, then it would be fine. But instead he pushed through a bad constitution, took away the legislative and judicial powers, etc.

Well... it is democracy. Sometimes you elect the wrong person or group... when they voted for the MB they knew what they where getting.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 68, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 67):
So it had to be done by force?

You got Mubarak out after 30 years by being on the streets. That was a legitimate resignation of a legitimate head of state. This was done at gunpoint, removing all sense of any sort of legitimacy. When someone seizes power, you loose all of that.

There was no mechanism in place to either curb Morsi's power or remove him (bearing in mind that initially, people wanted the former). The best option, in hindsight, would have been for the opposition figures to jointly issue a statement ousting Morsi. In any case, the military would have needed to rubber stamp his removal.
Morsi would have never resigned. He truly believed that the opposition were a negligible minority whom he could pay lip service to and leave it at that. It seems that he had US support for his regime, which was to him further proof of his validity as president.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 67):
Well... it is democracy. Sometimes you elect the wrong person or group... when they voted for the MB they knew what they where getting.

Everyone had their reasons for voting for the MB. Some people genuinely believed that after 30 years of getting nothing from Mubarak, they should give the MB a chance. Some people genuinely did not know what the implications could be. Others felt that it was more important at that stage to elect a civilian government, even if it meant the MB. Many were genuinely shocked at how poorly the MB fared once in power. I personally could never understand how anyone, especially from the more educated circles, could buy the MB for even one second, but there you have it.

I would love to hear your thoughts on the events of 2011. In major cities, millions were gathered to oust Mubarak, a military man who had been president for 30 years. Alarmed at the escalating violence and standstill the country had come to, the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces convened, without the Commander-in-Chief. Instead, Field Marshal Tantawi, the Minister of Defense and Military Production, was at its helm. After the military/Tantawi withdrew their support for Mubarak, he had no choice but to resign. Tantawi then became the de facto head of state as the head of the ruling military junta. Was that not even more of a coup than 2013?


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 69, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 67):
You got Mubarak out after 30 years by being on the streets. That was a legitimate resignation of a legitimate head of state. This was done at gunpoint, removing all sense of any sort of legitimacy. When someone seizes power, you loose all of that.

If you believed Mubarak just resigned at the signs of demonstrations, you need to have another look at what happened back then. As Directorguy said, the military simply sided with the demonstration and said to Mubarak, "Sorry Mr. President, we are no longer with you... we will be there to maintain order"... By then, Mubarak relied on the police, who was doing all the 'dirty business' during the 2011 demonstrations. The military was protecting the demonstrations by standing in the middle between Mubarak + police, and the demonstrations. It was when the police saw there was no point in supporting a Mubarak without military support, did Mubarak finally resigned.

Sorry, I agree with Directorguy, that was more of a coup than 2013. What the military did in 2011 was effectively, "we're not pointing the gun at you Mr. President, but we're going to let the crowds point our guns at you if you don't resign"... In 2013 it's "Mr. President, we're giving you 48hrs before we decide either to give the guns to the people to point at you, or to simply do it for the people."

Quoting directorguy (Reply 68):
Many were genuinely shocked at how poorly the MB fared once in power.

I was one of those. Given Mubarak or MB, back then I said I'd rather have Mubarak (but then that's because I don't live there), and as long as MB don't get into power, sure, get rid of Mubarak for all I care...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 68):
Was that not even more of a coup than 2013?

Yes and no. The fact that he resigned and wasn't forced out at gunpoint is what made that fine.

Look, all I'm saying here is that this coup delegitimized the democratic system by having the military take him by force; it sets a bad precedent for the Republic and its future democratically-elected leaders.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 69):
I was one of those.

As was I. I knew it would be bad, but this disaster I wouldn't have foreseen.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14061 posts, RR: 62
Reply 71, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 66):
To say nothing of the fact that the MB were doing nothing to fix the economy, which was in a very, very bad state. The Morsi government was living off foreign aid and did not even have a fiscal policy; I doubt they even knew what 'fiscal' means. Three more years of this and we'd be in a much worse place than now.

There could be a system behind this: Have a large number of people living in"Lumpenproletariat" conditions, who are uneducated and happy for the handouts provided by the MB in lieu of the failed social and economic policies of the state.
This will provide a nice, grateful base of voters, and all paid from abroad, by foreigners, who like to have influence in Egypt (which is AFAIK the Arabic country with the highest population, which additionally controls an important shipping lane
and without which there is no peace possible in the ME).

Jan

[Edited 2013-07-07 11:26:09]

User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 72, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 70):
Look, all I'm saying here is that this coup delegitimized the democratic system by having the military take him by force; it sets a bad precedent for the Republic and its future democratically-elected leaders.


Another important thing to add which may nuance your understanding of the military's coup.
The military in Egypt is a huge institution, running an empire that accounts for 25-40 percent of the national economy. It is also a respected institution, one that Egyptians in general are proud of. The military has a fond place in the collective national consciousness. You'd think this was shattered in 2011-2012 when people were protesting against the military junta , but in recent days, there has been an outburst of appreciation and sympathy for the military. Not only do some people appreciate what the military did, but think that the military was somehow obliged to do so. Never before has the military directly intervened in Egyptian politics, mainly because the president was always from the military, and so their interests were always guaranteed (a situation which changed later in Mubarak's presidency). To many, the fact that the military is an arbitrary power in politics is not a bad thing. 'Coup' and 'military intervention' do not have the same negative connotations as they do in other countries.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
There could be a system behind this: Have a large number of people living in"Lumpenproletariat" conditions, who are uneducated and happy for the handouts provided by the MB in lieu of the failed social and economic policies of the state.

This is EXACTLY what was happening before 2011. Mubarak was the failed state and people were living off the MB. They operated in broad daylight in towns and villages, slums and rural areas. They ran a network of hospitals, schools, soup kitchens etc.
Then, they became the state. They thought they could run the country like a soup kitchen but of course they couldn't. People were grateful when they got a free blanket or some oil to cook with. But when they expected the MB to do more, they were disappointed.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 69):
Sorry, I agree with Directorguy, that was more of a coup than 2013. What the military did in 2011 was effectively, "we're not pointing the gun at you Mr. President, but we're going to let the crowds point our guns at you if you don't resign"... In 2013 it's "Mr. President, we're giving you 48hrs before we decide either to give the guns to the people to point at you, or to simply do it for the people."

Well put.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2383 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 72):
25-40 percent of the national economy.

I'm aware and appalled, but that's separate...

Quoting directorguy (Reply 72):
'Coup' and 'military intervention' do not have the same negative connotations as they do in other countries.

Then that's just opening the door wide open.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 74, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 70):
As was I. I knew it would be bad, but this disaster I wouldn't have foreseen.

I foresaw it.
Choice 1: Egypt would have another military dictator being put in place initially through democratic means.
Choice 2: Egypt would have its elections raided by MB, and a theocratic dictatorship would be in place before the next election which would be used to "validate" the changes.
Choice 3: Egypt would have a capable election victor.
Choice 4: Either of #1 and/or #2, only to have them removed before the next election.

#4 was the most lilkely.
My country went through a similar process...

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
There could be a system behind this: Have a large number of people living in"Lumpenproletariat" conditions, who are uneducated and happy for the handouts provided by the MB in lieu of the failed social and economic policies of the state.
This will provide a nice, grateful base of voters, and all paid from abroad, by foreigners, who like to have influence in Egypt (which is AFAIK the Arabic country with the highest population, which additionally controls an important shipping lane and without which there is no peace possible in the ME).

This is exactly correct. This is the main reason why my country now focuses a lot on the economy. Bad economies led to the growth of blind followers... led by either religious extremists or political extremists, or even "just any politicians with money"... all that was needed was just some money to waste. The economy is important, first to feed and provide income/jobs, so that a democracy CAN work!

I guess, some would prefer a democracy before a nation can feed itself. Ironically, in developing nations, such rhetorics are usually reserved for anti-democracy activists! No prizes for guessing why...

Quoting directorguy (Reply 72):
Mubarak was the failed state and people were living off the MB. They operated in broad daylight in towns and villages, slums and rural areas. They ran a network of hospitals, schools, soup kitchens etc.

LOL! Yeah, MB is what I call... theolosocialists... am sure there's a better term. As in the socialism is there just to feed the need for a theocracy... just like Nazism... National Socialism... Socialism used to get into power, once you get power, use nationalistic rants to feed your dictatorship.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 73):
Then that's just opening the door wide open.

Voting for a dictator wannabe, is the initial "opening the door wideopen".



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27106 posts, RR: 60
Reply 75, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

Surprise statement from the Tourism sector :

Egypt ministry of tourism releases a surprise statement

The Ministry of Tourism of the Arab Republic of Egypt is proud to proclaim a new era for Egyptian tourism following the revolution of June 30, 2013.

This statement was received by eTurboNews from Mr. Mohamed Gamal, general manager of the Egyptian Tourist office in Frankfurt, Germany.

Mr. Gamal went on to say:" Every tourist visiting Egypt presently is a most welcomed guest, whose security is safeguarded by the Egyptian people and by the authorities, and all must be assured of their safety and ability to complete their planned visits without disruption. Their families and friends at home should be equally reassured.

http://www.eturbonews.com/35980/egyp...ourism-releases-surprise-statement


User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 76, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 75):

Surprise statement from the Tourism sector :

Egypt ministry of tourism releases a surprise statement

Why would it be a surprise? Tourism is a key part of the Egyptian economy - I've been there several times, from Cairo and Giza all the way down to Abu Simbel, and one of the most welcome sights was the specialized "Tourist Police" who would secure locations where tourists would congregate, after Muslim Brotherhood related groups gained a reputation for massacring tourists when they could. Morsi actually appointed as governor of Luxor the leader of the group that machine-gunned some 60 tourists outside the city. As long as the MB is in charge, I'd never go back there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_massacre



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3873 posts, RR: 14
Reply 77, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2348 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 68):
It seems that he had US support for his regime, which was to him further proof of his validity as president.

I'm wondering if you could elaborate on the first part of the statement. I've seen photos of various protesters holding signs blaming Obama and the U.S. ambassador for supporting Morsi, and I would love to have someone explain the reasoning behind some of these signs and beliefs.

It's puzzling to me, because from where I sit, U.S. "support" of Morsi appeared to be only the same support that the U.S. would give to any democratically elected leader.


User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 78, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 77):
It's puzzling to me, because from where I sit, U.S. "support" of Morsi appeared to be only the same support that the U.S. would give to any democratically elected leader.

When the 'Democratically elected leader' wants Sharia Law and the opposition wants a more liberal, tolerant country, that's basically where you end up. Happened in Iran, Turkey, now in Egypt.

I believe that at some point in the future the civilized governments of the world will provide as much welcome and support to a new Islamist government as it would to a resurrected Nazi Party in Germany. Until then we will continue to have these dilemmas.

[Edited 2013-07-08 07:17:04]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27106 posts, RR: 60
Reply 79, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 76):
Why would it be a surprise?

To actively come out and support the revolution is a surprise. Normally they hedge their bets in case the other side gains power again and dont make such a statement. Ive been to Egypt on a few occassions also ( hated it ) but thats not the point. I know all about their tourism industry and importance etc...


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 72):
25-40 percent of the national economy.

I'm aware and appalled, but that's separate...

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 74):
"opening the door wideopen".

I'm talking about precedent.

This is dangerous; if, say, they elect ElBaredei, he'll have a cloud over his administration.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20728 posts, RR: 62
Reply 81, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2309 times:

This isn't looking good.

USA Today: At least 51 killed in Egypt clashes

Quote:
CAIRO — At least 51 people were killed and more than 300 injured when Egyptian soldiers and police clashed with Islamists early Monday at a sit-in by supporters of former Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi, raising the specter of civil war.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 82, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 77):

The US, according to some media sources, tried to broker talks between Morsi and the opposition before he was deposed. It's almost a knee-jerk reaction on the part of the Americans-support our friends until it's blatantly obvious that they have to go. Obama did not come out on the side of the opposition, and his 'silence' and vague messages of supporting the will of the people etc. was interpreted by pundits that the US government was against the events of June 30. The fact that CNN gave a lot of airtime to MB spokesmen was also seen as suspicious. To place all of this in context, you have to be aware that Egyptians really dig conspiracy theories. To some, the fact that an Islamist government could come to power at all in a country as strategic as Egypt is proof that the US either heartily approves or 'wants' them there.

Now what does Morsi think? He has received several high-ranking US dignitaries on visits, conducted at least one trip to the States, and despite his newfound on-off love for Syria/Iran/China, has been keen to show that Egypt still remains a US ally. He truly believed that the US would support him. There have been reports that MB protesters called for foreign intervention to restore Morsi to power, so there is .

It's about perception, not actual substance.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul...la-fg-egypt-anti-american-20130706


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5842 posts, RR: 4
Reply 83, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 82):
To some, the fact that an Islamist government could come to power at all in a country as strategic as Egypt is proof that the US either heartily approves or 'wants' them there.

Fishy perhaps part of some plan that flopped, also Egypt is said to be main base in Illumanti and their end times games.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2236 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
Not really. He broke the law when he gave himself full powers.

Of course, but in 1933, the German people voted for the Nazi party, of which Hitler was the leader. It was convenient Hindeburg was old and died and Hitler wasted no time with his plans. While you cant compare post WW1 Germany to modern Egypt exactly, there was general bitterness after the Versailles treaty, the resulting reparations and hyper inflation during the global Great Depression. Hitler appealed to the population and offered what they wanted. In fact, he was actually successful in his early days and stabilised the economy and actually did a lot of good things for Germany. Of course, it wasnt too long before it was apparent it was in view of his preperation for the creation of the Third Reich and the much wanted "feel good factor" increasingly became the superiority of the Aryan race and resulted in one of the greatest attrocities of modern histoy.

The parallel I am drawing is the people of Egypt were rebounding off 30 years of a dictatorship and Morsi seemed to be the man with the promises to turn things around. It seems the lessons of history have been learned and a repeat of a Hitler situation with Sharia flavour instead of fascism has been thwarted.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 81):
Quote:
CAIRO — At least 51 people were killed and more than 300 injured when Egyptian soldiers and police clashed with Islamists early Monday at a sit-in by supporters of former Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi, raising the specter of civil war.

Sadly, while I appreciate Directorguys post and it seems the military acted with noble intentions, it was inevitable there would be a situation of somewhat anarchy without some proper transition of power, whether by election or force (subjugation).

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 55):
No, the military.

In a democracy, the military is controlled by the civilian government. When the military decides to take action against the legitimate government of the state it delegitimizes the political institution and the democratic system. It brings us into a slippery slope: if there is another elected leader, he will live with the shadow of the military over him and not the other way around.

Maybe Egypt needs a well armed militia among the people to assist the military   

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 65):
If the US suffered a coup, it would not be the US that we would know today.

Maybe that wouldnt be so bad   Send your refugees south though, not north.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 85, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 84):
In fact, he was actually successful in his early days and stabilised the economy and actually did a lot of good things for Germany

Indeed.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 84):
Maybe Egypt needs a well armed militia among the people to assist the military

Everyone on this board thinks that guns are the answer to everything.      

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 84):
Send your refugees south though, not north.

I'd go north.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 86, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

May I add a couple of observations?

The first is that I see several comparisons between Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood and the situation in Germany prior to the accession of Hitler and the Nazis in Germany. I tend to view things differently and one major reason is that unlike Hitler Morsi did invite a popular vote on Constitutional changes. I do not recall Hitler inviting anybody to participate in a referendum. In fact he did what the military in Egypt has been busy doing: arresting opposition members.

Secondly, unlike the opponents of Morsi who called for a boycott because they could not be assured of a majority, Hitler arrested his opponents and made sure that they could not stand. Having failed to secure a decisive rejection of the referendum on the Constitution, those who boycotted it now claim that the military action is a vindication of their position.

It may be tempting to assume a similarity between Hitler and Morsi because we don't like where Morsi may have taken Egypt, or more importantly how that would have affected the West. But to do s o makes the mistake of not recognising several differences.

But there are additional differences. The German Army in 1933 may not have liked Hitler (he was a plebian parvenu afterall) but the alternative was seen as worse. The "bolshevik" threat was taken seriously and the Army was content to support Hitler as a means of containing that threat. Can the same be said today, even allowing for a threat more serious than the "bolsheviks"? In 1933, the Army did not side with the people against the nazis: quite the opposite.

So we need to ask ourselves, is the army acting in support of democracy or is it acting in its own interests? Comparisons with Hitler and Morsi do not help, given both the context in which the two forces arose, the societal bases from which they emerged,


Please do not conclude from what I have written that I suport Morsi. I simply question why people are so willing to make comparisons with Germany in 1933 when the background, ideologies involved, position of the army, etc, today is very different. That is quite separate from any question of whether an army, an organisation based on blind obedience to command, can ever be a guarantor of democracy.

[Edited 2013-07-09 10:41:58]

[Edited 2013-07-09 10:43:36]

User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 87, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 86):

I frequently read of comparisons between Egypt and Algeria/Iran/Turkey/Indonesia. Comparing Egypt and Germany is quite interesting, but there are a lot of contrasts.
What the military really has up its sleeve is anybody's guess. They play a big part in the economy, and have always played a big role in politics. What is less commented about in the West but something that I, as an Egyptian, is well aware of and take for granted, is the place the military occupies in the national psyche. The military was formed parallel to our modern nation-state, and after 1952, 'liberated' the country and ushered in a new Egypt. As an institution it is respected, and its individuals, from the officers to the conscripts, are respected. It is a secular institution-many of its members are religious as individuals, but anyone who is not clean-shaven is reprimanded. The military elites could not really tolerate the MB, from the appearance of their members, to their ideology, but what really pushed them was Egypt's downward spiral to economic disaster. Many people-including myself-looked to them for guidance on June 30th when people went out calling for Morsi to leave. People expected them to stand by when the anti-Morsi crowd was an obvious majority, not as guarantors of democracy, but as guarantors of stability in the country when every single institution could not really stand up to Morsi.


User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 88, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 86):
The first is that I see several comparisons between Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood and the situation in Germany prior to the accession of Hitler and the Nazis in Germany.

I think you miss the point. The comparison is not that Morsi used Hitler's methods - like you said, there are differences, probably mostly because Morsi did not have the time to put them in place. Even Hitler needed a few years to consolidate power.

The point is that Islamism - (i.e Political Islam, the demands for Sharia Law, Jizya for non-muslims, second-class citizen status for women and non-muslims etc) which the MB openly wants to implement in in Egypt is no better than Nazism.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2164 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 88):
The point is that Islamism - (i.e Political Islam, the demands for Sharia Law, Jizya for non-muslims, second-class citizen status for women and non-muslims etc) which the MB openly wants to implement in in Egypt is no better than Nazism.

That's not reserved to Islam. All non-secular governments are like this.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 90, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 76):
Morsi actually appointed as governor of Luxor the leader of the group that machine-gunned some 60 tourists outside the city.

That shows how much of a nutcase he is.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 89):
That's not reserved to Islam. All non-secular governments are like this.

Is Egypt not a secular state then? Would you rather have Egypt be converted into a non-secular and probably a non-democratic state with Morsi staying in power?

I don't care what they say, but hardline Islamists see democracy as sinful and bad. I find that absolutely despicable that on the eve of Ramadhan, I had to be treated to anti-democratic rhetoric on Facebook by these Islamofascist. Sorry, I'd rather have a non-democratic state where I can feed my family and have a choice whether my wife should be veiled or not, than live in a democratic state where my wife would be forced to wear a veil while having doubts whether I can feed my family or not.

Islamists + politics usually means sins hidden or covered up in the name of religion. Have an Islamist government, you'd bound to end up having some corruption covered up in the name of religion too... Seen it all before.

Bye Morsi... you failed to be what you promised and instead have become what everyone had feared!



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 90):
Is Egypt not a secular state then? Would you rather have Egypt be converted into a non-secular and probably a non-democratic state with Morsi staying in power?

Egypt under the MB was not a secular state.

When the populace voted them in they knew what they where getting...

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 90):
Sorry, I'd rather have a non-democratic state where I can feed my family and have a choice whether my wife should be veiled or not, than live in a democratic state where my wife would be forced to wear a veil while having doubts whether I can feed my family or not.

I agree.

I always liked Mubarak.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 92, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 91):
When the populace voted them in they knew what they where getting...

Not really. The FJP (the political arm of the MB) promised people 'bread, justice, social equality' (the famous chant used during Jan 25). They played down the Islamist rhetoric, and really linked themselves to the revolution. The uneducated classes have little or no knowledge of the experiences Iran/Indonesia/Turkey went through.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 91):
I always liked Mubarak.

People always say the Mubarak era had 'stability'. Although there were very few political disturbances, socially Egypt underwent some dramatic changes. The rich got richer, and the poor remained just as poor, and everyone in between got squeezed. After two very powerful presidents, Mubarak was a dull man, who presided and enabled an era of unprecedented corruption, ignorance, and stagnation. All this enabled the MB.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 90):
Is Egypt not a secular state then? Would you rather have Egypt be converted into a non-secular and probably a non-democratic state with Morsi staying in power?

Officially, Morsi did not do anything to officially make Egypt a theocracy. A lot of institutions and ministries continued to resist him. Over time, however, the MB were planning on consolidating their hold over not only the ministries but the important institutions-the military, the judiciary, the police. They were totally selling the farce that because they got 51% of the popular vote then that gave them the mandate to do whatever they want.

Had Egyptians waited 3 more years, then went to vote against Morsi in the presidential elections, then the MB would have resorted to thuggery and violence to remain in power, as well as using their usual weak arguments 'Mubarak got 30 years, why begrudge Morsi another 4' etc. By then, the MB would have been more entrenched, the economy would have been far worse, and opposition anger would have been more pent-up. It would have been much worse.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2110 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 92):
They played down the Islamist rhetoric, and really linked themselves to the revolution. The uneducated classes have little or no knowledge of the experiences Iran/Indonesia/Turkey went through.

Then the opposition failed in making it known to them.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 92):
The rich got richer, and the poor remained just as poor, and everyone in between got squeezed.

That happens everywhere.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2102 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 93):
Quoting directorguy (Reply 92):
The rich got richer, and the poor remained just as poor, and everyone in between got squeezed.

That happens everywhere.

True, but it seems to me only the Egyptians have the balls to stand up....


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 95, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2088 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 91):
Egypt under the MB was not a secular state.

When the populace voted them in they knew what they where getting.

Errr... say what? 
Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 59):
however, when von Hindenburg died, Hitler needed to consolidate the offices for absolute power. These actions violated the so-called Enabling Act; Hitler could pass laws that went contrary to the Republic's constitution, but the Enabling Act forbade him from touching the powers of the presidency, which is what he did.

How was Morsi's "granting himself unlimited powers" be different from Hitler violating the Enabling Act, in terms of "intentions"?

Gotta love the "temporarily granting himself unlimited powers to "protect" the nation" in November 2012 which gave him the power to legislate without any judicial oversight or review of his acts... Sounds what any dictator wannabe would do.   

One difference is, Egypt began protesting against such a move, and the military sympathized, and eventually deposed Morsi... unlike Germany where everyone thought it was going to be a good idea (yeah recovering from the depression was a good one, but not the stuff afterwards).

Quoting directorguy (Reply 92):
The rich got richer, and the poor remained just as poor, and everyone in between got squeezed.
Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 93):
That happens everywhere.

Really? You should come here and see the number of poor entering the middle classes over the past 10 years. However, the extreme poor do find it very hard to get out of their vicious circle, however, one can say that some of them made a choice to remain there by listening to those who want them to stay poor.

The rich getting richer, well, ain't that always the case?

During our Suharto years (similar to Egypt's Mubarak years), yes, the rich got richer, the poor remained poor but they had a LOT of improvements... unfortunately, in Egypt's case, not much improvements for the poor over those years.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 92):
Officially, Morsi did not do anything to officially make Egypt a theocracy. A lot of institutions and ministries continued to resist him. Over time, however, the MB were planning on consolidating their hold over not only the ministries but the important institutions-the military, the judiciary, the police. They were totally selling the farce that because they got 51% of the popular vote then that gave them the mandate to do whatever they want.

Same old tactic. Obtain absolute control first before revealing your true intentions... By that time, no one can do anything against you (except for, maybe, Civil War/rebellion/coup d'etat)... I agree, why wait until then?

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 93):
Then the opposition failed in making it known to them.

The opposition has no presence in the extremely uneducated... that's MB's domain...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 94):
True, but it seems to me only the Egyptians have the balls to stand up....

Stand up? For what? Communitarianism?

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 95):
Really? You should come here and see the number of poor entering the middle classes over the past 10 years.

Asia is different. The quasi-renaissance happening there is rather fascinating.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 95):

The opposition has no presence in the extremely uneducated... that's MB's domain...

Then it's a circular argument, isn't it?

Like I said, they failed.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 97, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 96):
Then it's a circular argument, isn't it?

Like I said, they failed.

That remains to be seen. Egypt is very much up in the air right now. The provisional government wants to establish a new Constitution to replace the Sharia-friendly one the MB put in place, while holding off the MB's efforts to start a civil war. Meanwhile the international community is refusing to embrace the new government, which helps the MB's claims that the new government is illegitimate.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 93):
Then the opposition failed in making it known to them.

This is what happens to those who go against the MB at the local village level.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...E=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Quote:
CAIRO (AP) -- With a mob of Muslim extremists on their tail, the Christian businessman and his nephew climbed up on the roof and ran for their lives, jumping from building to building in their southern Egyptian village. Finally they ran out of rooftops.

Forced back onto the street, they were overwhelmed by several dozen men. The attackers hacked them with axes and beat them with clubs and tree limbs, killing Emile Naseem, 41. The nephew survived with wounds to his shoulders and head and recounted the chase to The Associated Press.

The mob's rampage through the village of Nagaa Hassan, burning dozens of Christian houses and stabbing to death three other Christians as well, came two days after the military ousted Islamist President Mohammed Morsi from power. It was no coincidence the attackers focused on Naseem and his family: He was the village's most prominent campaigner calling for Morsi's removal.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 98, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1950 times:

"The opposition has no presence in the extremely uneducated... that's MB's domain..."

This is the major reason for the failure of the opposition in the lead up to the removal of Mubarak. The opposition may have been united in its desire to be rid of Mubarak and his cronies, but they lacked both structure and a clear platform for what was to replace him. There was plenty of agreement on want they did not want, but no clear view of what the goal was or how to achieve it. Into the vacuum stepped the Muslim Brothrehood, an organisation that for many years had faced oppression but had addressed real issues. In a similar, though distinct, way the Catholic Church became a focus of opposition and came to influence Solidarnosc under the dictatorship in Poland. The similarity is not the policies of one organisation or another but that they were in a position to fill a vacuum where no other organised opposition existed.

When it came to the referendum on the new Constitution, was it a mistake to boycott it? The argument was that to participate would lend it legitimacy and that the results would then be binding. But abstention guaranteed that it would pass. Might it not have been better to argue for a "No" vote if one now wishes to argue the military coup somehow represents a victory for democracy?

At the moment it looks as if the opposition was unsure that it could muster a majority. Boycott was seen as better than failure to win the argiment. Now the opposition are now praising the very people that they wanted removed from power in the first place. I would be tempted to argue that we are back to square one. Except that we are actually a step further back.

Even before Mubarak was overthrown, the MB had renounced violence. They have tried the democratic path and found that it got them nowhere. There opponents do not wish to follow the principles of democracy, so why should they. "Democracy is smoke and mirrors. The military is using violence and arresting the MB leadership. Why then should we renounce the right to defend ourselves?"

Such the argument that I imagine will be taking place. So I fear that we have gone two steps back rather than just one. The obvious question that arises, when the new hand-picked Committee to draft a new Constitution has done its job and fresh elections are called, what then? Will the MB and anyone associated with it be banned from participating? If not, what happens if they are elected once more? Will it be become a case of election results are only recognised if we get the results we want?


User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 99, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1945 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 98):
Even before Mubarak was overthrown, the MB had renounced violence. They have tried the democratic path and found that it got them nowhere.

Perhaps as open policy, but their local chapters had no such qualms. While the MB was in power, minority religious groups such as the Copts were under intense pressure, repeated attacks, kidnappings and murders where the police looked the other way were commonplace. Sharia was going to be imposed one way or the other, and as far as I am concerned, any move towards state-sanctioned Sharia justifies revolt. Sharia does not belong in this century.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 100, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1942 times:

"Sharia does not belong in this century."
In that I am in full agreement. I fully believe in a clear separation between the State and religion. While there should be laws recognising the right of people to believe in whatever they wish and even to freely associate and exchange ideas, I do not believe that others should be compelled to accept opinions or laws based on religious or political dogma.

However, that does leave the problem of what happens next in Egypt. If members of the MB are allowed to stand in the proclaimed but not confirmed election, and should they again gain a majority, what then? If the presently called oposition do not boycott the elections, and at this stage there is no reason to believe they will, will they accept the result or will they seek to overthrow the newly elected majority?

This isn't simply an academic question but one that goes to the heart of where Egypt is headed. Whatever pretentions to the democratic path the MB might have had, that path has been blocked. The mass arrests that have been ordered indicate that we are back to tne "good old days" of arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, no doubt with the usual methods of interrogation. We should not assume that everybody caught in the net is guilty anymore than we can assume they are innocent, although in the West the presumption of innocence might be the norm.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 97):
This is what happens to those who go against the MB at the local village level.

Nothing in that article specifically talks about the MB.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 99):
Sharia was going to be imposed one way or the other, and as far as I am concerned, any move towards state-sanctioned Sharia justifies revolt. Sharia does not belong in this century.

Religious-based law has no place in this century, yet here in the United States we pass asinine laws without any other justification other than that.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 102, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1938 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 95):
Really? You should come here and see the number of poor entering the middle classes over the past 10 years. However, the extreme poor do find it very hard to get out of their vicious circle, however, one can say that some of them made a choice to remain there by listening to those who want them to stay poor.

The rich getting richer, well, ain't that always the case?

During our Suharto years (similar to Egypt's Mubarak years), yes, the rich got richer, the poor remained poor but they had a LOT of improvements... unfortunately, in Egypt's case, not much improvements for the poor over those years.

Much has been made of the 'success' of Muslim-majority countries such as Turkey, Malaysia, and to a certain extent Indonesia (the focus is overwhelmingly on Turkey though). At a superficial level, Egyptians see people from those countries approaching a Western level standard of living, and wondered what was going wrong in Egypt (of course, only well-read people were a party to such debates).
Perhaps in absolute terms, the standard of living has increased. But over a thirty year period, much more could have been done. Just look at the difference between 1945 and 1975 in pretty much any country to see what is achievable in terms of social, economic, political, and even cultural changes. Remember that during the Mubarak era, his ministers were wizards with numbers, and were very happy to say that we had a 6% increase in GDP or whatever, whereas that didn't really 'trickle down' into benefits for everyone.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 97):
That remains to be seen. Egypt is very much up in the air right now. The provisional government wants to establish a new Constitution to replace the Sharia-friendly one the MB put in place, while holding off the MB's efforts to start a civil war. Meanwhile the international community is refusing to embrace the new government, which helps the MB's claims that the new government is illegitimate.

Does not bode well for the resolution of the conflict in Syria, for example. It is very likely that the Islamists could prevail there. If the West is not prepared to at least accept the nascent triumph of the secularists/liberals/non-Islamists in Egypt, then it's unlikely they'll help them in Syria.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 98):
When it came to the referendum on the new Constitution, was it a mistake to boycott it? The argument was that to participate would lend it legitimacy and that the results would then be binding. But abstention guaranteed that it would pass. Might it not have been better to argue for a "No" vote if one now wishes to argue the military coup somehow represents a victory for democracy?

I can't remember to what extent people boycotted/invalidated their votes. I do remember two things. 1) People voted 'yes' to avoid prolonged bloodshed and turmoil (their argument not mine). I can't remember how prevalent this was but it shows the mentality of at least a segment of the electorate. 2) The MB had the ability to make sure every single supporter or 'yes' voter actually goes to a polling station. They mobilize their followers in groups, and arrange buses for those in remote areas etc., not to mention the usual handouts. People who in principle were anti-MB or were opposed to the constitution did not necessarily get the chance to vote on the referendum. There was less voter turnout.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 98):
Even before Mubarak was overthrown, the MB had renounced violence. They have tried the democratic path and found that it got them nowhere. There opponents do not wish to follow the principles of democracy, so why should they. "Democracy is smoke and mirrors. The military is using violence and arresting the MB leadership. Why then should we renounce the right to defend ourselves?"

If they do not seriously reform and understand why they 'lost' the presidency, then it is unlikely they will ever be taking seriously. Their best bet would be to cleanse the group of their incompetent leaders and give more power to the youth (it is reported there is a schism between the young and the old in the MB, which would not be the first time). But that would take a lot of courage, and that would be so unlike the MB we've come to know and love.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 100):
"Sharia does not belong in this century."
In that I am in full agreement. I fully believe in a clear separation between the State and religion. While there should be laws recognising the right of people to believe in whatever they wish and even to freely associate and exchange ideas, I do not believe that others should be compelled to accept opinions or laws based on religious or political dogma.


Under Egyptian law, murderers are punished, criminals are jailed, and property rights upheld, just like Shari'a law. Shar'ia is an evolving body of legal concepts whose contributors can be more flexible and balanced than they get credit for. It is not some 7th century manual on how to decapitate infidels and stone adulterers.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 100):
However, that does leave the problem of what happens next in Egypt. If members of the MB are allowed to stand in the proclaimed but not confirmed election, and should they again gain a majority, what then? If the presently called oposition do not boycott the elections, and at this stage there is no reason to believe they will, will they accept the result or will they seek to overthrow the newly elected majority?

This isn't simply an academic question but one that goes to the heart of where Egypt is headed. Whatever pretentions to the democratic path the MB might have had, that path has been blocked. The mass arrests that have been ordered indicate that we are back to tne "good old days" of arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, no doubt with the usual methods of interrogation. We should not assume that everybody caught in the net is guilty anymore than we can assume they are innocent, although in the West the presumption of innocence might be the norm.

At this time, it is very very unlikely that the MB, or any Islamist party, will gain a majority. Should that happen, then a) the military will intervene even before the results are announced b) a repeat of this year's events. I think that an Islamist victory this year is virtually impossible (though never say never), simply because so many are against them. Even in 2012, when they were relatively popular, Morsi came close to losing.
Mubarak's National Democratic Party was dissolved in 2011 and many of its members were barred from entering politics. The difference between them and the MB is this: the MB is an ideological organization. It may be dissolved and banned, but it will have committed members who will be utterly convinced of the glory of their cause. Instead of just temporarily weakening the MB, there should be a long-term plan to wipe out the conditions that made MB ideologies appear, and persist.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 103, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

"Instead of just temporarily weakening the MB, there should be a long-term plan to wipe out the conditions that made MB ideologies appear, and persist . "

Yes, as long as there continues to be large scale unemployment or under-employment and hard living conditions in which a lot of people feel excluded then groups that feed upon those conditions will grow, whatever police methods are used against them.

"It is not some 7th century manual on how to decapitate infidels and stone adulterers. "
True and there is plenty of evidence of that in the differing decisions made from time to time and from place to place. Several countries have constitutions that say the laws are based on Islam but the ways in which those countries operate differ widely.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 104, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 103):
Yes, as long as there continues to be large scale unemployment or under-employment and hard living conditions in which a lot of people feel excluded then groups that feed upon those conditions will grow, whatever police methods are used against them.

Indeed.

People where susceptible to the MB due to the conditions they where in. The question is, are they any less susceptible now?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2768 posts, RR: 18
Reply 105, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1758 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 103):
"Instead of just temporarily weakening the MB, there should be a long-term plan to wipe out the conditions that made MB ideologies appear, and persist . "

The real answer lies in education so that the younger generation won't want to live under a medieval system of religious laws. The Islamists prey on the weak willed by making them believe that if they follow some historical fairy tale their lives will be better. Not only Egypt, but all the other countries the Islamists are working hard to keep education from taking mass appeal.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 106, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1736 times:

@ photopilot " Not only Egypt, but all the other countries the Islamists are working hard to keep education from taking mass appeal."

Education is a must but is not the only answer. Others have made comparions with the nazis in Germany and this is one area where a comparison might be useful. Before 1933 Germans were largely educated yet they fell under the sway of an extremist ideology. Why? It was the extreme hardship and instability of the times which gave rise to nazism. Hitler gained appeal because he provided an answer, however irrational, to the problems people were facing. In the face of the non-extremist parties being either unable or unwilling to provide an effective alternative, people turned to those who promised stability and growth.

So while education is essential, action needs to be taken to erase the poverty and insecurity that lead people to support irrational ideologies. That means addressing the economic and social issues. This does not mean that some won't still be attracted to extremists: some supporters are both wealthy and well-educated, but it does mean that the extremists will be unable to gain a mass base from which to achieve their aims.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days ago) and read 1724 times:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07...my-sinai-sweep-kills-10-militants/

10 militants killed in Sinai - whoever is right or wrong, this is not the way things should be going... yet in a semi anarchy condition, not sure what people expected.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 106):
Before 1933 Germans were largely educated yet they fell under the sway of an extremist ideology. Why? It was the extreme hardship and instability of the times which gave rise to nazism. Hitler gained appeal because he provided an answer, however irrational, to the problems people were facing

The whole world was in depression through the 1920's, but particularly Germany after harsh reparations for WW1. Hitler in the beginning did actually do a lot of good for Germany and got the economy going by creating jobs buildings roads, creating industry, schools and so on, providing education, stopped hyperinflation with a new currency. Of course, it wasnt too long before the "economy building" and industry turned into gearing into a war effort, but Germany had a good few years of prosperity before the real aggenda came out, by which time people began to turn the blind eye until there was no choice other than to tow the line. My point is a country can get a "feel good factor" by having their needs catered for through a true desire for economic growth and education, not any kind of ideology whether political (fascism / communism) or religious in the background. It seems finding the right party / person for this job is what Egypt is missing.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 108, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days ago) and read 1721 times:

Anyone else feeling a bit more optimistic about the present situation? It's by no means optimal, but look at a lot of modern democracies... it came about after a lot of bloodshed. I hope Egypt can straighten itself out with minimal bloodshed but even if there is some, I am not so quick to write them off as a failure.

I'm personally glad they aren't going to stand for a bad, corrupt government. Mistakes have been made, I don't agree with everything they've done/are doing, but I think in the near or mid future, we'll see a stable Egypt again, an Egypt with at the very least a fairly decent government



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2768 posts, RR: 18
Reply 109, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
Anyone else feeling a bit more optimistic about the present situation?

Well, in my case I'm watching Egypt with great interest. But it's also hard not to have rose-coloured glasses either and only see what I want to see. Because..... I'm arriving in Cairo on Nov 3 and will leave Nov 18th. I'm going to pretty much be all over the country with the exception of the Sinai area. So I am really hoping things calm down by then.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 110, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
Anyone else feeling a bit more optimistic about the present situation? It's by no means optimal, but look at a lot of modern democracies... it came about after a lot of bloodshed. I hope Egypt can straighten itself out with minimal bloodshed but even if there is some, I am not so quick to write them off as a failure.

I'm not so sure. In the short term, the new government seems to have stabilized itself, but the MB is showing no intention to back off, nor any interest in compromise. They want their power back - all of it. And thanks to the incomprehensible reaction of countries around the world, the MB still can claim legitimacy based on having been elected. I think western nations should have told the MB, "Sorry, you may have been elected, but you have screwed up the economy, pursued or abetted severe attacks on minority rights, and the people want you O-U-T. Good-Bye"

Instead they wrung their hands about "Oh, but they were elected".



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 110):
Sorry, you may have been elected, but you have screwed up the economy, pursued or abetted severe attacks on minority rights, and the people want you O-U-T. Good-Bye"

Half the countries in the West have been in that situation.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 110):
And thanks to the incomprehensible reaction of countries around the world, the MB still can claim legitimacy based on having been elected.

They can claim legitimacy--and they're right--but it doesn't mean anything; they're not going to get their power back.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
Anyone else feeling a bit more optimistic about the present situation?

The fact that the MB is out is a good thing--although I disagree with the means--but the nation is still unstable. I'm going to have to wait a couple of months or so to give a good assessment; can't be optimistic when one has no idea what will happen tomorrow.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 112, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1663 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 111):
Half the countries in the West have been in that situation.

Name one which allows the persecution and murder of religious and other minorities.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 111):
They can claim legitimacy--and they're right--but it doesn't mean anything; they're not going to get their power back.

I'm not so sure. I think Egypt is on the path to becoming like Iraq, circa 2006 or so. A government desperately trying to maintain legitimacy and rebuild the damage done before, against an openly violent jihadist movement.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (1 year 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 1581 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 112):
ame one which allows the persecution and murder of religious and other minorities.

Did Morsi's Egypt openly allow such things?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 112):
I'm not so sure. I think Egypt is on the path to becoming like Iraq, circa 2006 or so. A government desperately trying to maintain legitimacy and rebuild the damage done before, against an openly violent jihadist movement.

You're right--it's not out of the realm of possibility.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 114, posted (1 year 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 1578 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 113):
Did Morsi's Egypt openly allow such things?

Oh yes. For the past year or so, Copts have been fleeing Egypt in record numbers, because of the persecution. Generally local Muslims would commit some crime against them, say kidnap and rape a young girl, and the police would ignore the case, or a court would judge that the perps were allowed to do what they did under Sharia. Sharia allows you to do some pretty nasty things to non-muslims.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 115, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1549 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 113):
Did Morsi's Egypt openly allow such things?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 114):

Morsi certainly condoned hate speech. A few weeks before his removal, he organized a huge public rally at Cairo Stadium, where a bunch of Islamist speakers said some very questionable things that openly incited and condoned violence against Shi'a Muslims in Egypt and abroad. They also made attacks on the people who supported the then-upcoming June 30 protests. Words such as 'heretics' and 'infidels' were used. And all this time, Morsi just sat there, because apparently after centuries of Egypt staying out of the whole Sunni-Shi'a conflict, now was the best time to delve in. Had this man had an ounce of respect for his high office, he should have stood up then and there and publicly opposed what these people were saying. But he didn't, because he agreed completely with what they were saying.
I would add that Muslims too were fleeing Egypt in record numbers. Although I would say the numbers are nothing like those of Syria, where millions have left and sought refugee in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt.

The Muslim Brotherhood has always been persecuted (though from the 1970s onwards tolerated to an extent) and so have developed this mentality of victimization. They think everyone is always out to get them. The July 3rd ouster reinforced this idea, and they literally think this is nothing but a setback and that this is nothing but a test from God. Initially, their pro-Morsi protesters were nonviolent, but they are inching towards violence and open confrontation with the anti-Morsi protesters. It is high time Egyptian state security begins clamping down on them.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 116, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1546 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 115):
Had this man had an ounce of respect for his high office, he should have stood up then and there and publicly opposed what these people were saying. But he didn't, because he agreed completely with what they were saying.

Morsi was a nuisance for Egypt.

All the merit goes to all those who participated into public protests in order to having him ousted.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 115):
Initially, their pro-Morsi protesters were nonviolent, but they are inching towards violence and open confrontation with the anti-Morsi protesters. It is high time Egyptian state security begins clamping down on them.

I hope the pro-Morsi protesters will be properly taken care of by Egyptian security forces.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 114):

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 113):
Did Morsi's Egypt openly allow such things?

Oh yes. For the past year or so, Copts have been fleeing Egypt in record numbers, because of the persecution. Generally local Muslims would commit some crime against them, say kidnap and rape a young girl, and the police would ignore the case, or a court would judge that the perps were allowed to do what they did under Sharia. Sharia allows you to do some pretty nasty things to non-muslims.


Seems like bog-standard persecution of 'the other'.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

I hope Egypt will get a secular dictator who keeps all the religious extremists and other trash in strict order through military force if necessary and also concentrates on improving education of ordinary people to make them less likely to fall for extreme religious brainwash.

I think what has been happening since Gaddafi and Mubarak were thrown from power clearly proves that democracy really isn't sustainable and leads to misery in these certain areas when uneducated religious masses vote people like Mursi into power.

Secular dictatorship where religion is kept separate from politics is always better than a chaotic democracy that will eventually lead into religious extremists ruining the country.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 119, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1468 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 118):
I think what has been happening since Gaddafi and Mubarak were thrown from power clearly proves that democracy really isn't sustainable and leads to misery in these certain areas when uneducated religious masses vote people like Mursi into power.

Secular dictatorship where religion is kept separate from politics is always better than a chaotic democracy that will eventually lead into religious extremists ruining the country.

Hell has frozen over... we agree on something.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 120, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1462 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 118):

I hope Egypt will get a secular dictator who keeps all the religious extremists and other trash in strict order through military force if necessary and also concentrates on improving education of ordinary people to make them less likely to fall for extreme religious brainwash.

That's practically what they had with Mubarak--that's why I always liked him.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 118):
Secular dictatorship where religion is kept separate from politics is always better than a chaotic democracy that will eventually lead into religious extremists ruining the country.

  



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 121, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 120):
That's practically what they had with Mubarak--that's why I always liked him.

Didn't the Mubarak era nurture the Islamists and enable them to amass power and followers? In 1980, they were pretty much on the fringes of society and politics, yet look what they achieved in 2012.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 118):
Secular dictatorship where religion is kept separate from politics is always better than a chaotic democracy that will eventually lead into religious extremists ruining the country.

The days of dictatorship in Egypt are over. People have permanently become emboldened, thanks to social media, thanks to changing political values, and thanks to the idea that if anything goes wrong, people can just go back to the streets and protest. People are now expecting a large degree of accountability from whoever leads them. The silver lining now is that the secularists and liberals can easily win the Egyptian political center. They just need to unite and put up a strong fight. It isn't inevitable that religious extremists will always win at the ballot box.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 122, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 120):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 118):

I hope Egypt will get a secular dictator who keeps all the religious extremists and other trash in strict order through military force if necessary and also concentrates on improving education of ordinary people to make them less likely to fall for extreme religious brainwash.

That's practically what they had with Mubarak--that's why I always liked him.

I think having a dictator that keeps the country in line is better than civil war/anarchy, but if I was an Egyptian, I sure wouldn't want to settle with the lesser of two evils. Whether a true democracy can thrive in the current situation is up to debate, but I'm not gonna like Mubarak and say he's a good guy when he's not. Same could be said for Saddam... he kept the country from devolving into chaos, but he wasn't a very good guy

Good luck to the Egyptians. They were a very friendly people and they deserve better than the crap they've been dealing with



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 123, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1436 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 121):
Didn't the Mubarak era nurture the Islamists and enable them to amass power and followers? In 1980, they were pretty much on the fringes of society and politics, yet look what they achieved in 2012.

The Mubarak era merely served to anger some; after the revolution they where successful in pandering their story to those who already had cause to agree with them, I.e., they shared a common religion.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 121):
The days of dictatorship in Egypt are over. People have permanently become emboldened, thanks to social media, thanks to changing political values, and thanks to the idea that if anything goes wrong, people can just go back to the streets and protest. People are now expecting a large degree of accountability from whoever leads them.

Indeed.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 122):
I think having a dictator that keeps the country in line is better than civil war/anarchy, but if I was an Egyptian, I sure wouldn't want to settle with the lesser of two evils.

It comes down to having some government against having no, or ineffective, government. That's a totally separate debate but one with only a single answer.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 122):
but I'm not gonna like Mubarak and say he's a good guy when he's not. Same could be said for Saddam... he kept the country from devolving into chaos, but he wasn't a very good guy

Mubarak was pro-West and pro-Israel. That put him in good graces with the world and was good for the people of Egypt.

Saddam killed his own people. A tad different.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 121):
The silver lining now is that the secularists and liberals can easily win the Egyptian political center. They just need to unite and put up a strong fight. It isn't inevitable that religious extremists will always win at the ballot box.

Let's hope so, for the good of the state and the region.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 124, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1426 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 123):
It comes down to having some government against having no, or ineffective, government. That's a totally separate debate but one with only a single answer.

And who says having some government and having no government are the only options? That's called creating a false dilemma fallacy. There are more options than just X and Y

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 123):
Mubarak was pro-West and pro-Israel. That put him in good graces with the world and was good for the people of Egypt.

Saddam killed his own people. A tad different.

Yeah of course no analogy is 100% the same. Look at the context of what I was saying. I agree Saddam was worse, but they were both dictators that kept the peace. I prefer peace over chaos but that doesn't mean either are good. At best, you can consider them necessary evils, and again, I don't think the only two options are a bad government and no government. If that were the case, I'd agree with the "one single answer" comment you made



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 125, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1414 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 124):
And who says having some government and having no government are the only options? That's called creating a false dilemma fallacy. There are more options than just X and Y

I'm not exactly sure for what you're going here... In the strictest sense, there is or there isn't government.

In the broader sense relating to Egypt, of course: there can be dysfunctional government and whatnot.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 124):
Yeah of course no analogy is 100% the same. Look at the context of what I was saying. I agree Saddam was worse, but they were both dictators that kept the peace.

Saddam hardly kept the peace.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 124):
At best, you can consider them necessary evils, and again, I don't think the only two options are a bad government and no government. If that were the case, I'd agree with the "one single answer" comment you made

It is indeed a necessary evil--or good, depending on your position in society.

Again, you could have dysfunctional government, imbecilic government, religious government... but none of those are good either.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 126, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1412 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 125):
I'm not exactly sure for what you're going here... In the strictest sense, there is or there isn't government.

Yeah, you could have no government or you could have government. But having government doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a mediocre government. Saying there are only two options is way too simple

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 125):
Saddam hardly kept the peace.

He did a lot to keep the factions from interfighting. The interfighting in Iraq now was not as bad under Saddam

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 125):
Again, you could have dysfunctional government, imbecilic government, religious government... but none of those are good either.

OR you could have a good, moral, secular democracy. My point is just saying the Egyptians should settle for a dictator that more or less keeps the peace is not the only alternative to anarchy, and maybe you'd be ok living under it, but you can't expect the Egyptians to be happy with it

It is very possible that it will get worse before it gets better, just like in a lot of scenarios. So pointing to the current situation which may be the first steps towards a good democracy and saying that they are much worse NOW so they should go back to what they had is pretty short sighted, IMO. Hey, you may be right, maybe they'll end up with a dictator again and things will be better than they were before, but I'd at least try if I was an Egyptian (I would think but I'm not in that situation)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14061 posts, RR: 62
Reply 127, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 122):
I think having a dictator that keeps the country in line is better than civil war/anarchy, but if I was an Egyptian, I sure wouldn't want to settle with the lesser of two evils. Whether a true democracy can thrive in the current situation is up to debate, but I'm not gonna like Mubarak and say he's a good guy when he's not. Same could be said for Saddam... he kept the country from devolving into chaos, but he wasn't a very good guy

Guys, you have to stop judging the events in Egypt from the viewpoint of countries with long established democratic traditions (and traditions of the protection of minorities).
Look at France:
It took them almost 100 years after the fall of the Bastille to develop a stable democratic system. Inbetween they had several revolutions, counterrevolutions, rule by violent political extremists (Robespierre, Marat and the Montagnards), a military dictatorship (Napoléon I), several attempted absolutist monarchies and civil war like situations.
They won´t get a perfect system immediately.

Jan


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 128, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1426 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 127):
Guys, you have to stop judging the events in Egypt from the viewpoint of countries with long established democratic traditions (and traditions of the protection of minorities).

   Exactly. I said as much in Reply 108. Most of our Western democracies have had a crazy amount of bloodshed compared to what Egypt has had so far



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1420 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
But having government doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a mediocre government. Saying there are only two options is way too simple

I said as much.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
He did a lot to keep the factions from interfighting. The interfighting in Iraq now was not as bad under Saddam

...but he went to war with Iran.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
OR you could have a good, moral, secular democracy. My point is just saying the Egyptians should settle for a dictator that more or less keeps the peace is not the only alternative to anarchy, and maybe you'd be ok living under it, but you can't expect the Egyptians to be happy with it

It isn't the only alternative to anarchy, it's just the best and most stable.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
t is very possible that it will get worse before it gets better, just like in a lot of scenarios. So pointing to the current situation which may be the first steps towards a good democracy and saying that they are much worse NOW so they should go back to what they had is pretty short sighted, IMO. Hey, you may be right, maybe they'll end up with a dictator again and things will be better than they were before, but I'd at least try if I was an Egyptian (I would think but I'm not in that situation)

The current situation is a step back from democracy. I touched on this previously.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 130, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1421 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 129):
...but he went to war with Iran.

Again, not a one to one comparison. If you want to find differences between Iraq and Egypt you can find a million. I'm talking about the similarities of dictators ruling hard and keeping the people in order. By now this point has evolved to the point where it has little to do with what I was talking about at first

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 129):
It isn't the only alternative to anarchy, it's just the best and most stable.

Having a dictator is better than having a good, democratic government? I know that's not what you believe so I think you're misunderstanding me.

I'm saying I wouldn't stand for a crappy, corrupt government so I can't expect the Egyptians to as well

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 129):
The current situation is a step back from democracy. I touched on this previously.

Again, you can't just take the low points and say how much worse it is. It may get worse before it gets better

I think we're arguing in circles at this point, may just have to agree to disagree



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 131, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1417 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 130):
Again, you can't just take the low points and say how much worse it is. It may get worse before it gets better

That's not what I meant--the fact that the military has responded has delegitimized the democratic system making it inherently unstable for the future is what caused the step back.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 130):
Having a dictator is better than having a good, democratic government? I know that's not what you believe so I think you're misunderstanding me.

Having a competent and relatively benevolent dictatorship is better than having a half-arsed democracy.

(And having a dictator may be better for certain groups than a democracy--it depends...)

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 130):
Again, not a one to one comparison. If you want to find differences between Iraq and Egypt you can find a million. I'm talking about the similarities of dictators ruling hard and keeping the people in order. By now this point has evolved to the point where it has little to do with what I was talking about at first

All I'm saying is that Mubarak was better than what they (don't) have now.

[Edited 2013-07-24 23:21:42]


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 132, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1373 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 131):
That's not what I meant--the fact that the military has responded has delegitimized the democratic system making it inherently unstable for the future is what caused the step back.

I don't necessarily see it that way. It could be argued that Morsi went against democracy and was becoming dictatorish himself and the military removed that and plans to reinstate democracy again. Don't think it's black and white. I'm sue if Morsi started executing citizens on the street and proclaimed himself King you'd be ok with the military overthrowing him. I'm NOT saying that ever happened or would have happened, I'm just trying to demonstrate there is a 'line' where a democratically elected official goes overboard and a coup is justified. We just disagree where that line is

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 131):
All I'm saying is that Mubarak was better than what they (don't) have now.

Fair enough, but again, this is a transition period. If it stayed this way for the long haul I'd have a big problem with it, but I think they're getting their ducks in a row and will try another round of democracy. That's what I'm talking about when I say it might need to get worse before it gets better.

IDK about you but I think we've pretty much figured each other's arguments out and agree on 90%, it's just the last 10% that's been confusing



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1697 posts, RR: 11
Reply 133, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1359 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
OR you could have a good, moral, secular democracy. My point is just saying the Egyptians should settle for a dictator that more or less keeps the peace is not the only alternative to anarchy, and maybe you'd be ok living under it, but you can't expect the Egyptians to be happy with it

Egypt, unlike virtually every other Arab country, sees itself as homogeneous. Egypt has a religious minority (Coptic Christians). In other Arab countries power-sharing agreements are common (Lebanon, Iraq, possibly Syria in the future) whereas in Egypt the political system is more inclusive and unitary. Mubarak was never a strongman keeping a patchwork of competing sects and tribes together, like Saddam or Bashar. During the Mubarak years, the Islamists grew in power. Politically, they were useful in keeping dissenters and critics at home in check, and in using them as a bogeyman at the international level.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 127):
Guys, you have to stop judging the events in Egypt from the viewpoint of countries with long established democratic traditions (and traditions of the protection of minorities).
Look at France:
It took them almost 100 years after the fall of the Bastille to develop a stable democratic system. Inbetween they had several revolutions, counterrevolutions, rule by violent political extremists (Robespierre, Marat and the Montagnards), a military dictatorship (Napoléon I), several attempted absolutist monarchies and civil war like situations.
They won´t get a perfect system immediately.

That's the argument that many make. While yes, historically democracies take years to fully establish themselves as such, in Egypt, it was not inevitable that it would be so messy. The initial transition period could have been charted more smoothly. What's done is done though.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 132):
I don't necessarily see it that way. It could be argued that Morsi went against democracy and was becoming dictatorish himself and the military removed that and plans to reinstate democracy again. Don't think it's black and white. I'm sue if Morsi started executing citizens on the street and proclaimed himself King you'd be ok with the military overthrowing him. I'm NOT saying that ever happened or would have happened, I'm just trying to demonstrate there is a 'line' where a democratically elected official goes overboard and a coup is justified. We just disagree where that line is

That's exactly what happened. Morsi did go overboard, and no one had recourse to any government institution or legal mechanism that could censure him.


On Wednesday, the highest-ranking military man, General al-Sissi, called for the people to hold rallies in Friday in support of 'fighting terrorism and crime', and to give the military and security forces the mandate to do whatever is necessary to achieve that end. This has actually polarized a lot of the non-Islamists. Some find it strange, or suspicious, that the military/security forces need public approval to carry out the job. It is also strange that it was al-Sissi and not the President who made this request. Then there's the al-Sissi love fest that's been going on. People have deep respect for the guy on a personal level, and distribute posters carrying his image in streets and share them on their FB Walls. While at this point I guess I am on their side, I am against the idea of pitting millions against millions in the streets, and against the idea that the Egyptian army needs confirmation of public approval.


User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2768 posts, RR: 18
Reply 134, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
The interfighting in Iraq now was not as bad under Saddam

Unless of course you happened to be Kurdish. They might disagree with your assessment.

I don't believe any of the "dictators" that ran Egypt ever used poison gas on their own citizens.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 135, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1339 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 132):
I'm sue if Morsi started executing citizens on the street and proclaimed himself King you'd be ok with the military overthrowing him.

I would, but not under the pretenses to 'restore democracy'.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 132):
If it stayed this way for the long haul I'd have a big problem with it, but I think they're getting their ducks in a row and will try another round of democracy.

Trust me, I'd love to see this more than anything... I'm just doubtful that it'll happen.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 132):
IDK about you but I think we've pretty much figured each other's arguments out and agree on 90%, it's just the last 10% that's been confusing

Most certainly.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 136, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1337 times:

Quoting photopilot (Reply 134):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 126):
The interfighting in Iraq now was not as bad under Saddam

Unless of course you happened to be Kurdish. They might disagree with your assessment.

I don't believe any of the "dictators" that ran Egypt ever used poison gas on their own citizens.

Ok read the context of what I said and the (at least) 2 times I said it's not a 1 to 1 comparison. My whole point was not celebrating a dictator that "kept the peace" to a certain extent. You're reading into it wayyyy to far

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 135):
I would, but not under the pretenses to 'restore democracy'.

Well this may be a agree to disagree point, but isn't that what they are doing? The Egyptians elected a president, they didn't elect what Morsi became. In essence, Morsi removed democracy so the military removed him so they can (supposedly) go back to democracy.

Honestly, I think we just need to wait and see



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 137, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1320 times:

Egypt braces for day of rival rallies - Thousands of army and police out in force in Cairo

From Haaretz/AP:

Gen. Abdel-Fattah El-Sissi's call to take to the streets in large numbers on Friday to give him a popular mandate widely interpreted as a prelude to a crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood.

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.538127

Thousands of army and police out in force in Cairo, parts of the city cordoned off as huge crowds respond to army's call to take to streets

     



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 138, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
Well this may be a agree to disagree point, but isn't that what they are doing? The Egyptians elected a president, they didn't elect what Morsi became. In essence, Morsi removed democracy so the military removed him so they can (supposedly) go back to democracy.

Right, but I explained the problem with this earlier on--the fact that the military overthrew him is what makes this 1) illegitimate and 2) sets up future 'democracy' for failure. The military should never have the power to overthrow a democratically elected president, which is what they did.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 139, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1290 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 138):
The military should never have the power to overthrow a democratically elected president, which is what they did.

What?


This is a little reminder what Egyptians have been through since 8 months!
Read here:

For The Record - The IPT Blog

Morsi Threatens Opponents
Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi warned opponents Sunday that he would act against the Muslim Brotherhood's opponents if rioting continues.
Morsi's threat followed violent demonstrations Friday at the Muslim Brotherhood headquarters that left 160 people injured.

read more:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/3956/morsi-threatens-opponents

Huge antit-Morsi protest at Tahrir Square tonight (Friday)

Live feed here:
http: //rt.com/ on-air/egypt- protest-mors i-cairo/ (please scrub blank spaces to watch feed)

AlJazeera Arabic had pro-Morsi protests live feeds but it looks like they are being jammed by the Egyptian army.

The Egyptian army is said tot be protecting both sides protests.

     



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 140, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1277 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 139):
This is a little reminder what Egyptians have been through since 8 months!
Read here:

I know well what they have done. For one, they brought it upon themselves; secondly, what they have been through does not disqualify the fact that the coup was a bad idea.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 141, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Well democracy is a process, not a fixed state of affairs. No revolution has gotten from a dictatorship/tyranny/whatever to democracy in a couple of days. The opposite can happen, though. For example the French revolution started in 1789, democracy really started about 80 years later. Then in 1940 it disappeared overnight.

The power the military has in Egypt is something we're not accustomed to, but it's how it is there, and it won't change quickly. The fact is, they removed an incompetent government. If it had been a good government with massive support, that would really be concerning.

Personally I find the power lobbyists have in the US and from there everywhere is appalling, but somehow we still consider that we're democracies.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 142, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1272 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 138):
The military should never have the power to overthrow a democratically elected president, which is what they did.

I agree... but I think the Morsi that got overthrown was not the Morsi democratically elected. There is a difference between bad leaders that follow the law and ones who go against it. But alas, I think we've reached the point of agreeing to disagreeing. I thank you for the civil conversation, we may just have to end it here



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 143, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 141):
Then in 1940 it disappeared overnight.

That's the French for you.      

Quoting Aesma (Reply 141):
Personally I find the power lobbyists have in the US and from there everywhere is appalling, b

Indeed.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
I agree... but I think the Morsi that got overthrown was not the Morsi democratically elected.

This is true--I concede that point.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
and ones who go against it.

This is where we reach dubious waters.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 142):
I thank you for the civil conversation, we may just have to end it here

Always a pleasure.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 144, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1207 times:

RT
At least 74 dead, over 700 injured in Egypt clashes - Health Ministry (PHOTOS)
http://rt.com/news/egypt-dead-clashes-brotherhood-664/


Norwegian media reports over 200 killed and 4000 wounded.
http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.11152774

"It is primarily at the Rabia al-Adawyiya Mosque the drama has played out, during a demonstration by supporters of the deposed President Mohamed Morsi. It began with skirmishes on Saturday morning and then evolved into a bloody drama. The match was between the security forces on the one hand and protesters on the other. Security forces have shot with sharp bullets at protesters."


     



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
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