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Bolivia Government Falcon 900 Forced To Land?  
User currently offlineclickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9635 posts, RR: 68
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8523 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

As already reported, the Dassault Falcon 900EX that is the Bolivian Air Force 1 was prohibited from flying over Italy, Portugal, Spain and France, due to suspicions it was harboring the "democratic world's enemy #1" Edward Snowden, trapping FAB1 above Austria, and forcing to land in Vienna. Watch the animation of the flight path below how effective the "democratic world" is in making a mockery of due process, diplomatic immunity and all those other highly valued qualities that make living in the "democratic world" such a joy. As for Europe: what can we say - the continent that over the weekend was furious at the NSA for spying on it, expressed its anger by blocking Snowden's airpace.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...e-one-it-gets-trapped-over-austria

Crazy stuff. Can they route via Asia, if needed?

122 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8293 times:

Totally unacceptable diplomatically with a head of state onboard

Imagine any country trying it on Airforce 1


User currently offlinecessnalady From Mexico, joined May 2004, 310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8218 times:

Best option would be to refuel in VIE, fly over the Balkans to the mediterranean sea, west over international airspace as much as possible to Africa's west coast, refuel (declaring emergency if needed) in Sénegal, Mauritania, Guinea or Sierra Leone, and then fly accross the stormy Atlantic straight to South America, ideally to Brasil and then Bolivia. Should Brasil and Colombia deny overfly, Venezuela - international airspace - Nicaragua - international airspace - Ecuador - Peru would provide safe passage and refueling. Good thing a Falcon 900 has the legs to do just that.

Amazing this is going on... Let's see if the "leader of the free world" (haha) does not end indeed "scrambling jets" to catch a sovereign nation's presidential plane. We shall see.


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8165 times:

Quoting clickhappy (Thread starter):
As for Europe: what can we say - the continent that over the weekend was furious at the NSA for spying on it, expressed its anger by blocking Snowden's airpace.

Well, people may get angry at their overlords, but they still obey them... just think of the information that the Americans could release, that alone should shut up most dissent from European (and other) governments.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3966 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8126 times:

This isn't making a mockery of anything - Snowden is a wanted man with indictments outstanding, that right there is due process as "capturing" is all part of that process. As for diplomatic immunity, no such right automatically exists and those countries can indeed refuse entry or overflight of whomever they wish.

If the police have reasonable suspicion to believe you have a wanted person in your car, you can bet your arse they have the power to stop you on your journey. Same deal here.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9437 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8057 times:

If diplomatic immunity would mean that an aircraft or any other vehicle cannot be searched in special situation, Assange would not be a prisoner in a London embassy.

As to the flight, the plan was a fuel stop in LIS which was denied, together with the overfly rights which France and Spain denied. Looks like Mr. Morales can continue once his crew is fresh and able to operate the flight and the refuelling bill is paid.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3299 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7997 times:

Snowden has no official travel documents, he has a US passport that has been revoked. At this point, he has no way to enter any country legally. He is in no mans land at SVO, so how is this guy going anywhere?

Unless some private aircraft is brought to a place at SVO that he can get to. He then needs to be taken by an aircraft belonging to the country is going to spend his days in, like Bolivia. It is one of the countries he has applied for asylum in.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently onlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7984 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 3):
Well, people may get angry at their overlords, but they still obey them... just think of the information that the Americans could release, that alone should shut up most dissent from European (and other) governments.

Two way street that (especially in Europe) ....maybe not so much in North Africa

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
As to the flight, the plan was a fuel stop in LIS which was denied, together with the overfly rights which France and Spain denied. Looks like Mr. Morales can continue once his crew is fresh and able to operate the flight and the refuelling bill is paid.

The question is were the overflying rights denied before or after departing Moscow. Assume it must have been after departure which (if so) is highly irregular and extremely undiplomatic. Sure countries can deny overflying rights but it doesn't sit too well doing it to the Head of State

Bolivia is at a disadvantage, doubt it has many 'Head of States' overflying it, otherwise it could return the compliment. Maybe one day it might get the opportunity


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9437 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7962 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 7):
Bolivia is at a disadvantage, doubt it has many 'Head of States' overflying it, otherwise it could return the compliment. Maybe one day it might get the opportunity

Tit for tat is not a very mature form of government. The fact that even the remote thought that Morales might have Mr. Snowden on board of his government aircraft speaks for itself. The Bolivian people should think twice about their choice.,



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7922 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Tit for tat is not a very mature form of government. The fact that even the remote thought that Morales might have Mr. Snowden on board of his government aircraft speaks for itself. The Bolivian people should think twice about their choice.,

Might not be 'mature' but history is littered with copious examples. Anyway Bolivia banning overflights is not the main point.

So what if Morales does have Snowden on board - he's a Head of State, you don't do this sort of stuff to Heads of State full stop; especially as (it looks as if) overflying was denied whilst the aircraft was enroute

Maybe it is a bad thing for Bolivia for them to shelter Snowden, but that is a decision for Morales & his Government to weigh


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9437 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7887 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 9):
So what if Morales does have Snowden on board - he's a Head of State, you don't do this sort of stuff to Heads of State full stop; especially as (it looks as if) overflying was denied whilst the aircraft was enroute

Heads of State do not transport fugitives on their government aircraft. Mr. Morales has not done that, obviously, but Mr. M. has given reason enough in the past to let the suspicion rise.

Diplomatic immunity does not give anyone the right to condone criminal acts.

Regarding the other question, denying overflight rights does not mean that the aircraft would be denied landing as well. If the Falcon had been in French airspace at the time they would have allowed landing at a military or a commercial airfield for sure.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7871 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 9):

Sorry...but if I was to read into your numerous posts 100%, are you insinuating that "heads of states" are untouchable?

I wonder what Egypt has to say about that, just for starters...



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7866 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Tit for tat is not a very mature form of government. The fact that even the remote thought that Morales might have Mr. Snowden on board of his government aircraft speaks for itself. The Bolivian people should think twice about their choice.,

The Bolivians don't need to think about anything, America is just chalking up a huge list of countries that will not be favourable to them in the future. From the bugging of EU to this and arming Terrorists in Syria while justifying snooping on its own citizens to stop ironicly "terrorism". The self defeat is flowing out of the white house at the moment.

The USA government needs to worry about the day its own citizens finally stand up against all the bs. I look forward to someone refusing Air Force One permission to enter their airspace and then watch Obama do his hypocritical cry baby routine.


User currently offlineairportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7823 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):

While I agree, there are too many passive-aggressive ummm...pussies??..that will ensure that won't happen...



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9437 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7772 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
refusing Air Force One permission to enter their airspace and then watch Obama do his hypocritical cry baby routine.

there is a thread in non-aviation where your contribution would be better placed. I could make a point there about real democracies and democratic elected dictators.

To keep it aviation here, the Presidential plane has air refuelling capabilities and they have aircraft carriers as well.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7763 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
This isn't making a mockery of anything - Snowden is a wanted man with indictments outstanding, that right there is due process as "capturing" is all part of that process. As for diplomatic immunity, no such right automatically exists and those countries can indeed refuse entry or overflight of whomever they wish.

It is making a complete mockery of freedoms of the air and diplomatic process in direct contravention of quite a few conventions which the US, France, Portugal, Italy, and Spain are signatories to. Snowden was NOT even on the flight. Just because you suspect a fugitive to be on a plane...with no proof...this is not justified.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 7):
Bolivia is at a disadvantage, doubt it has many 'Head of States' overflying it, otherwise it could return the compliment. Maybe one day it might get the opportunity

There are always AA flights 980 and 922 MIA-LPB that could be targeted for the sake of reciprocity...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Tit for tat is not a very mature form of government.

Maybe, but that is how a lot of international relations go. Anyway that's for non-av I guess.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
Heads of State do not transport fugitives on their government aircraft. Mr. Morales has not done that, obviously, but Mr. M. has given reason enough in the past to let the suspicion rise.

Germans have done a lot in the past to warrant suspicion. Lest we forget.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3966 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7663 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 15):

Go on, show us these conventions that have been violated - not one of them guarantees the free passage of people legitimately wanted by law enforcement, be them on commercial flights, government flights or in their own private jet.

If reasonable grounds exists, that's enough to take action the world over. And there were certainly reasonable grounds here.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9437 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7637 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 15):
Germans have done a lot in the past to warrant suspicion. Lest we forget.

can you specify that please? In non-aviation.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

Quoting clickhappy (Thread starter):
As for Europe: what can we say - the continent that over the weekend was furious at the NSA for spying on it, expressed its anger by blocking Snowden's airpace.

I'll say it. Spineless hypocrites.

Now they have to explain why they behaved so badly to another head of state in order to please the US government. There will be consequences.

PA515


User currently onlinesierra3tango From Bahrain, joined Mar 2013, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 11):
Sorry...but if I was to read into your numerous posts 100%, are you insinuating that "heads of states" are untouchable?

I wonder what Egypt has to say about that, just for starters...

The Head of State of a country represents the people of that country - to insult the Head of State of a country is to insult the people of that country. Or put the other way around all the ceremonials that go on around a state visit are the two countries 'Heads' meeting on behalf of their governments / peoples; remember all the perceived slights at such ceremonials, for example flying the Union Jack upside down in Washington during a UK Prime Ministers visit (who isn't a head of state).

Untouchable - no, but touchable only by its own peoples - as in Egypt

The aviation point is (lest we forget) were overflying rights cancelled whilst the plane was enroute?


User currently offlinethaiflyer From Thailand, joined Oct 2007, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
To keep it aviation here, the Presidential plane has air refuelling capabilities and they have aircraft carriers as well.

Yes the plane has theoretically refueling capabilities.
But this is only done a few times in the beginning for exercise and never (and will be never done) with the president on board.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9437 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7406 times:

Now Mr. Morales was paid a courtesy visit by the Austrian president Mr. Fischer, Spain opened its airspace, the flight can refuel at a Canary Island airport and everyone is happy, except Mr, Snowden and may be a few members here.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7354 times:

Here are some picture's from President Morales' visit today to Vienna. Our President, Dr. Fischer went and met him to try and smooth things over, I guess.

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/au...link=/home/index.do&selChannel=103

(In German)


Theoretically, couldn't the presidental jet count as a "Diplomatic Bag" therefore, non-searchable by agents of another government?


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3966 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7324 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 22):
Theoretically, couldn't the presidental jet count as a "Diplomatic Bag" therefore, non-searchable by agents of another government?

Nope, doesn't work like that.


User currently offlinecessnalady From Mexico, joined May 2004, 310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7307 times:

President Morales' plane is reportedly departing VIE now. Where to?

25 Post contains links oly720man : The Canary Islands And, to add, the plane has been searched. Austrian officials said the plane was searched and Mr Snowden, wanted by the US for leak
26 cessnalady : Absolutely wrong. Law enforcement is just another governmental action, albeit not of the executive branch, and it is subject to limits. One of those
27 Post contains links PA515 : 'FAB1' has departed VIE and is tracking towards Innsbruck on www.flightradar24.com Just entered Italian airspace south east of Innsbruck. PA515[Edited
28 DTW2HYD : France didn't allow a Dassault Falcon over its airspace. Next time they should buy a G650.
29 thaiflyer : Ok if that is the case lets search Air force one next time for illegal materials. But i think that you have a few problems with trying that.
30 moo : Common misconception, but wrong - embassies, consulates et al are NOT foreign territory, foreign soil or anything of the ilk, they remain the soverei
31 PanHAM : some on-line news say that the aircraft was not searched but all passengers and crew had to identify themselves, had their passports checked. May be t
32 Bogota : Incredible to see European Governments being such puppets, especially after last weekends evidence of how the US Government treats its "friends". Inte
33 ltbewr : This was a terrible decision by these countries, but they did so either due to pressure by the USA Government or just to get approval of a new trade
34 Post contains images r2rho : This whole episode has been a[nother] big embarassment for both the overparanoid US and its EU puppet governments. Amazing how a little guy with a han
35 Post contains links web500sjc : according to CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/...plane-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 The plane was denied the ability to refuel in Portugal, an
36 Post contains images aloges : Wouldn't it be funny if, to avoid further embarrassment, a flight that actually does carry Snowden from Moscow to wherever wasn't searched?
37 sierra3tango : I was under the impression that such flights have to obtain pre-approval of their flight plan PRIOR to departure (correct me if I'm wrong) If so the o
38 txkf2010 : Well said!
39 Bogota : If that is so why has the UK Government not entered their sovereign soil in London where the Ecuadorian Embassy sits to detain Assange? According to
40 luckyone : No there won't. The EU heads-of-state know full well that they aren't any cleaner than the US government, and it's plausible they now know what the U
41 Post contains images Owleye : FAB-001 has just crossed the Portugese coast heading for the Canaries (?) to re-fuel. Route: Vienna, Milan, Marseille, Barcelona, south of Madrid, sou
42 Bogota : What a disgusting and ignorant commentary, you should be banned for this. Shame on your mindset, no wonder you find this incident ok.[Edited 2013-07-
43 PanHAM : The answer is: Nada, except some harsh words which he has uttered already. Was a sarcastic remark from my side. Things like that happen, Couple of ye
44 Owleye : Lovin' this comment
45 luckyone : Ignorant? Bolivia has at one point been the supplier of 1/3 of the world's cocaine and is estimated to be the world's third largest producer. In doll
46 Giancavia : So far the main report I saw was "Spain and France" refusing it transit and it ended up in Austria because they were happy for it to land there. Fran
47 Bogota : Totally, First for starters your country has zero capability to ban or lets say stop cocaine imports from Bolivia, the whole world knows that. Second
48 Post contains images luckyone : I wasn't aware that was a point of discussion, nor did I imply as such. Considering the topic at hand was Bolivian retaliation and coca production is
49 Post contains links AeroWesty : The news is reporting this morning that Morales' plane did not have its overflight rights removed by the countries it was claimed had done so yesterda
50 katekebo : My $0.02. I think France and Portugal overreacted. You don't do something like this to a head of state, unless you have strong suspicion (or evidence)
51 DTW2HYD : You are exactly right. The outrage is just for domestic public consumption. I have a slightly different theory. It appears governments figured out a
52 AirPacific747 : Well said. Both the US and the EU look like big losers.
53 b2319 : Can you please substantiate this, via a reference? I have visited around 50 countries in the world and would never make such a statement. Of all the
54 infiniti329 : A plane carry a head of state is considered extension of that nation and their sovereignty. Any force able searching of that aircraft can be considere
55 sierra3tango : Totally agreed at the very least its a Casus Belli
56 dfambro : If there's any lesson to be learned here, it's that heads of state shouldn't make snarky jokes at the expense of other nations while on foreign soil.
57 B777LRF : I see. So you're postulating that a foreign Head of State shoots off a clever remark, perhaps along the lines of 'thought of offering Mr. Snowden a r
58 Cargolex : This isn't a trip down the L.A. freeway in a Ford Bronco. A government plane carrying a head of state is no different than a diplomatic mission - thi
59 pliersinsight : What does this political debate have to do with civil aviation? The aircraft involved is not a commercial aircraft. The occupants are not private citi
60 Bogota : Actually not, Bolivia´s main source of revenue is Natural Gas, which they hold the second largest reserves in South America. That together with larg
61 AeroWesty : IF the story is true. As I posted above, France has denied withdrawing overflight rights for the Bolivian president's plane.
62 Giancavia : The most laughable crap I have ever read in my life. Transparent in what way? Secret Prisons? Secret snooping? Secret Surveillance? Secret UAV wars f
63 B777LRF : Which bit are you unclear on mate? Someone prompted a bit of airspace to be closed, wherever it was and however big it was, and suggest landing an ai
64 AeroWesty : Just pointing out that the countries accused of closing their airspace yesterday are denying it today. It's called "keeping an open mind". Let's see
65 solarflyer22 : Why did they not go to Switzerland which is not in the EU and is historically neutral? Unfortunately there is a valid warrant for his arrest so it can
66 Post contains images PanHAM : Me wonders how the Swiss managed to keep their butt out of this. I think at a time the Falcon was closer to ZRH than VIE. May be ATC pretended they we
67 Aesma : First, let me say that I have had great doubts over this story from the start, and have not seen any proof of it so far, certainly no admission by any
68 AR385 : Interesting question. I had not thought of that. Maybe nowadays that Swiss neutrality is just good marketing. Is it an international warrant? Has Int
69 Aesma : The Swiss invited Polanski to a film festival then grabbed him as soon as he got there. Only to decide in the end that they would not extradite him !
70 B777LRF : In the greater scheme of things, whether or not one country or the other closed its airspace or not is largely irrelevant. Something, or rather someo
71 luckyone : I was clearly speaking in terms of agriculture. But since you brought it up... 1 World 208,400,000,000,000 2 Russia 47,570,000,000,000 3 Iran 33,070,
72 luckyone : It's not a big secret Morales won his seat on a populist platform. I believe the Perons called such masses "descamisados." He doesn't miss a chance t
73 AR385 : Bolivia on its own, maybe not. But right now, the whole of SouthAmerica, including Brazil are either pretty pissed or pretty surprised in realizing t
74 luckyone : Are they really surprised or are they just taking the opportunity to get their two bits in? You had me until the following: The players might have ch
75 Giancavia : It seems the person you are debating with has absolutely no idea about politics. Countries have allies, Other countries watching on will also be wary
76 Bogota : I had no idea Russia was so big in Lithium, or perhaps your are so infuriated by someone correcting you that you posted Natural Gas figures because y
77 luckyone : If you think for even a minute that other countries, including allies aren't quietly and earnestly assessing what's going on with regards to their ow
78 tu204 : In my honest opinion: The whole matter of how the U.S. and some western European countries have handled this whole affair is a joke. From my point of
79 luckyone : You brought up natural gas, Bolivia's reserves, and subsequent energy needs and the US and EU not looking good in comparison. Read for yourself what
80 luckyone : They would be perfectly within their right to be. It is their airspace after all.
81 Bogota : Absolutely right, that is why multilateral relations are so important. And most of the world has seen favors claimed at very high prices, especially
82 Bogota : You read it again, I am sure you are able to understand. Second in South America if you read knowledgably. And Lithium reserves which you convenientl
83 Post contains links luckyone : Indeed I did. I can read perfectly well. I think the person aggravated and needing to slow down is you. You are putting words in my mouth. If you rea
84 Aesma : So it seems that indeed France is playing both sides (or it was just a screwup) : BBC : WaPo :
85 wingman : Snowden is one of the worst traitors to his own country in decades, US or otherwise. The man has violated every oath he's ever taken in his work for t
86 Wsp : Apparently the French President is personally watching over French airspace. Just when you think this story can't get any sillier... Indeed, von Stau
87 Bogota : I feel pity for those you dated, I on the other hand am very proud of my country and the many brave men who have shed lots of blood trying to keep dru
88 Derico : All I can say is that there is true outrage in Latin America about this, towards both Europe and North America. Interesting how such an unexpected thi
89 AR385 : And that´s an understatement. Even Mexico who is an unconditional ally of the EU has condemned the actions and there is talk of calling back their a
90 Derico : It is trully a conflagration of mines the Europeans and North Americans have stepped on: 1. Taking this action against a head of state (which obviousl
91 PanHAM : well, I put "illiteral" into quotation marks which, as I have learned many decades ago, have a purpose. Mr. Morales depends on the masses who may be
92 Wsp : Let's not waste comment space with fake outrage and boring patronizing. Von Stauffenberg broke the law. This is supposedly all that matters according
93 Wsp : In defense of PanHAM: he has in the past said the same stuff about politicians and voters in Berlin, so I doubt it is Eurocentrism.
94 PanHAM : There is always a law which is above "laws" in a dictatorship. The basic human rights. Tyrannicide is legal under the conditions von Stauffenberg tri
95 AR385 : And you know that how exactly? Have you ever been to Bolivia? Because I have. I lived there for a year and they are more connected than the tribal vi
96 Wsp : Under which specific legal framework was tyrannicide legal in Germany on June 20th 1944? Most people understand that there is a distinction between w
97 PanHAM : OK, you hi-jacked the thread but that cannot go uncommented. The whole Nazi regime was illegal starting from the dy they took over power and tailored
98 PanHAM : be more specific please, EAST Berlin that was and the subject was the campaign about closure of THF.
99 Giancavia : Chill a bit mate, Not every European Country took part in this joke of an episode. Can we judge the whole of South America over the action of one or
100 Aesma : Well if the initial decision to rescind overflying permission (a fact nobody has admitted, only hinted at) came from a random person in a ministry th
101 L410Turbolet : How does it make his official status any different? It probably has some meaning in South America perhaps due to your own skeletons in the closet...
102 PanHAM : From an article in today's print edition of FAZ, the pilots requested to land in VIE due to a problem with some instruments. VIE gave them landing per
103 AR385 : I think, Giancavia, is not him that is outraged. His point is that that is the way Cristina is going to use this for her agenda. The big difference i
104 PanHAM : I could not give a damn about Morales and his other socialist buddies, we had 40 years of socialism in a part of Germany and we are still paying the
105 AR385 : Ah. So, that is why you have adopted your current position. Should have said it earlier, saved us a lot of time. Anyway, whether you: Does not matter
106 Gonzalo : This thread was a real amusement last couple of days. It is really funny to see a big number of people here talking about the "retaliation" from Boliv
107 sierra3tango : This thread has degenerated into a slanging match, miles off point The banning of the aircraft (with a pre filed flight plan) of a Head of State is an
108 luckyone : That's all good and well, with one small exception: Cristina is going to royally shaft the Argentine people a lot faster and with far longer lasting
109 Wsp : What is more likely: that in four countries some low level bureaucrats ad-hoc improvised a policy against a presidential flight based on a rumor or t
110 Derico : Right, so how about having Obama go through some special "wait" at a restaurant in Berlin, Rome, or Paris, how would that look? If you don't understa
111 Post contains links Gonzalo : Really ?? Is Chile the one wasting a long period of good prices of its main product ? http://www.emol.com/noticias/economi...o-de-paises-de-ingresos-
112 Post contains images Derico : You completely equivocated Gonzalo. You did not answer the question... how is Chile any better off than the rogue states against the might of the EU a
113 PanHAM : The evening news showed an amusing clip of Mr. Morales' arrival back home., having "just escaped from death in Austria". Now, this is what I meant wit
114 Post contains links Wsp : I am sure this is just an oversight, but you forgot to include a source for this claim. http://en.rsf.org/report-bolivia,168.html "Here, as elsewhere
115 notdownnlocked : I'm sure Evo's only thoughts throughout this whole episode were, "What would my big big daddy Hugo Chavez do in this situation? I can no longer do a s
116 Rara : Nah they don't. Where would you get that idea from? The U.S. have always pursued a divide-and-rule strategy in Latin America, keeping some countries
117 Bogota : Interestingly I am not seeing the press in those countries even questioning what has happened and making an issue about it. It seems that press is ve
118 Gonzalo : that sets a perfect example for leaders like Morales to do what ever they feel like it in the future with no international consequences being feared.
119 Post contains images AR385 : What is it that you find funny? Are you so superficial that you think what has riled up those nations is "funny"? Do you not realize the precedent th
120 sierra3tango : If I were Morales I'd do the following 1) Take it to the UN (already done) 2) Eject the US and relevant EU Ambassadors (in his opinion) having previou
121 Gonzalo : Don't you get it ? The butterfly taking retaliation against an A380 wasn't clear enough ? So let's see, when Argentina defaults 200 billions to the w
122 Derico : Gonzalo, ok, Argentina violates treaties left and right: wrong. But, you justify the biggest players in the world violating treaties AND/OR not treati
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