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Bolivia Government Falcon 900 Forced To Land?  
User currently offlineclickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9601 posts, RR: 69
Posted (1 year 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8463 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

As already reported, the Dassault Falcon 900EX that is the Bolivian Air Force 1 was prohibited from flying over Italy, Portugal, Spain and France, due to suspicions it was harboring the "democratic world's enemy #1" Edward Snowden, trapping FAB1 above Austria, and forcing to land in Vienna. Watch the animation of the flight path below how effective the "democratic world" is in making a mockery of due process, diplomatic immunity and all those other highly valued qualities that make living in the "democratic world" such a joy. As for Europe: what can we say - the continent that over the weekend was furious at the NSA for spying on it, expressed its anger by blocking Snowden's airpace.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...e-one-it-gets-trapped-over-austria

Crazy stuff. Can they route via Asia, if needed?

122 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 8233 times:

Totally unacceptable diplomatically with a head of state onboard

Imagine any country trying it on Airforce 1


User currently offlinecessnalady From Mexico, joined May 2004, 310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 8158 times:

Best option would be to refuel in VIE, fly over the Balkans to the mediterranean sea, west over international airspace as much as possible to Africa's west coast, refuel (declaring emergency if needed) in Sénegal, Mauritania, Guinea or Sierra Leone, and then fly accross the stormy Atlantic straight to South America, ideally to Brasil and then Bolivia. Should Brasil and Colombia deny overfly, Venezuela - international airspace - Nicaragua - international airspace - Ecuador - Peru would provide safe passage and refueling. Good thing a Falcon 900 has the legs to do just that.

Amazing this is going on... Let's see if the "leader of the free world" (haha) does not end indeed "scrambling jets" to catch a sovereign nation's presidential plane. We shall see.


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8666 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 8105 times:

Quoting clickhappy (Thread starter):
As for Europe: what can we say - the continent that over the weekend was furious at the NSA for spying on it, expressed its anger by blocking Snowden's airpace.

Well, people may get angry at their overlords, but they still obey them... just think of the information that the Americans could release, that alone should shut up most dissent from European (and other) governments.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 8066 times:

This isn't making a mockery of anything - Snowden is a wanted man with indictments outstanding, that right there is due process as "capturing" is all part of that process. As for diplomatic immunity, no such right automatically exists and those countries can indeed refuse entry or overflight of whomever they wish.

If the police have reasonable suspicion to believe you have a wanted person in your car, you can bet your arse they have the power to stop you on your journey. Same deal here.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7997 times:

If diplomatic immunity would mean that an aircraft or any other vehicle cannot be searched in special situation, Assange would not be a prisoner in a London embassy.

As to the flight, the plan was a fuel stop in LIS which was denied, together with the overfly rights which France and Spain denied. Looks like Mr. Morales can continue once his crew is fresh and able to operate the flight and the refuelling bill is paid.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3078 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7937 times:

Snowden has no official travel documents, he has a US passport that has been revoked. At this point, he has no way to enter any country legally. He is in no mans land at SVO, so how is this guy going anywhere?

Unless some private aircraft is brought to a place at SVO that he can get to. He then needs to be taken by an aircraft belonging to the country is going to spend his days in, like Bolivia. It is one of the countries he has applied for asylum in.



Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys stupidity - In honor of the mayor!
User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7924 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 3):
Well, people may get angry at their overlords, but they still obey them... just think of the information that the Americans could release, that alone should shut up most dissent from European (and other) governments.

Two way street that (especially in Europe) ....maybe not so much in North Africa

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
As to the flight, the plan was a fuel stop in LIS which was denied, together with the overfly rights which France and Spain denied. Looks like Mr. Morales can continue once his crew is fresh and able to operate the flight and the refuelling bill is paid.

The question is were the overflying rights denied before or after departing Moscow. Assume it must have been after departure which (if so) is highly irregular and extremely undiplomatic. Sure countries can deny overflying rights but it doesn't sit too well doing it to the Head of State

Bolivia is at a disadvantage, doubt it has many 'Head of States' overflying it, otherwise it could return the compliment. Maybe one day it might get the opportunity


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7902 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 7):
Bolivia is at a disadvantage, doubt it has many 'Head of States' overflying it, otherwise it could return the compliment. Maybe one day it might get the opportunity

Tit for tat is not a very mature form of government. The fact that even the remote thought that Morales might have Mr. Snowden on board of his government aircraft speaks for itself. The Bolivian people should think twice about their choice.,



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7862 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Tit for tat is not a very mature form of government. The fact that even the remote thought that Morales might have Mr. Snowden on board of his government aircraft speaks for itself. The Bolivian people should think twice about their choice.,

Might not be 'mature' but history is littered with copious examples. Anyway Bolivia banning overflights is not the main point.

So what if Morales does have Snowden on board - he's a Head of State, you don't do this sort of stuff to Heads of State full stop; especially as (it looks as if) overflying was denied whilst the aircraft was enroute

Maybe it is a bad thing for Bolivia for them to shelter Snowden, but that is a decision for Morales & his Government to weigh


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7827 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 9):
So what if Morales does have Snowden on board - he's a Head of State, you don't do this sort of stuff to Heads of State full stop; especially as (it looks as if) overflying was denied whilst the aircraft was enroute

Heads of State do not transport fugitives on their government aircraft. Mr. Morales has not done that, obviously, but Mr. M. has given reason enough in the past to let the suspicion rise.

Diplomatic immunity does not give anyone the right to condone criminal acts.

Regarding the other question, denying overflight rights does not mean that the aircraft would be denied landing as well. If the Falcon had been in French airspace at the time they would have allowed landing at a military or a commercial airfield for sure.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3556 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7811 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 9):

Sorry...but if I was to read into your numerous posts 100%, are you insinuating that "heads of states" are untouchable?

I wonder what Egypt has to say about that, just for starters...



A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7806 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Tit for tat is not a very mature form of government. The fact that even the remote thought that Morales might have Mr. Snowden on board of his government aircraft speaks for itself. The Bolivian people should think twice about their choice.,

The Bolivians don't need to think about anything, America is just chalking up a huge list of countries that will not be favourable to them in the future. From the bugging of EU to this and arming Terrorists in Syria while justifying snooping on its own citizens to stop ironicly "terrorism". The self defeat is flowing out of the white house at the moment.

The USA government needs to worry about the day its own citizens finally stand up against all the bs. I look forward to someone refusing Air Force One permission to enter their airspace and then watch Obama do his hypocritical cry baby routine.


User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3556 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 7763 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):

While I agree, there are too many passive-aggressive ummm...pussies??..that will ensure that won't happen...



A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7712 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
refusing Air Force One permission to enter their airspace and then watch Obama do his hypocritical cry baby routine.

there is a thread in non-aviation where your contribution would be better placed. I could make a point there about real democracies and democratic elected dictators.

To keep it aviation here, the Presidential plane has air refuelling capabilities and they have aircraft carriers as well.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2323 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7703 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
This isn't making a mockery of anything - Snowden is a wanted man with indictments outstanding, that right there is due process as "capturing" is all part of that process. As for diplomatic immunity, no such right automatically exists and those countries can indeed refuse entry or overflight of whomever they wish.

It is making a complete mockery of freedoms of the air and diplomatic process in direct contravention of quite a few conventions which the US, France, Portugal, Italy, and Spain are signatories to. Snowden was NOT even on the flight. Just because you suspect a fugitive to be on a plane...with no proof...this is not justified.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 7):
Bolivia is at a disadvantage, doubt it has many 'Head of States' overflying it, otherwise it could return the compliment. Maybe one day it might get the opportunity

There are always AA flights 980 and 922 MIA-LPB that could be targeted for the sake of reciprocity...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Tit for tat is not a very mature form of government.

Maybe, but that is how a lot of international relations go. Anyway that's for non-av I guess.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
Heads of State do not transport fugitives on their government aircraft. Mr. Morales has not done that, obviously, but Mr. M. has given reason enough in the past to let the suspicion rise.

Germans have done a lot in the past to warrant suspicion. Lest we forget.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7603 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 15):

Go on, show us these conventions that have been violated - not one of them guarantees the free passage of people legitimately wanted by law enforcement, be them on commercial flights, government flights or in their own private jet.

If reasonable grounds exists, that's enough to take action the world over. And there were certainly reasonable grounds here.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7577 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 15):
Germans have done a lot in the past to warrant suspicion. Lest we forget.

can you specify that please? In non-aviation.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 863 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7519 times:

Quoting clickhappy (Thread starter):
As for Europe: what can we say - the continent that over the weekend was furious at the NSA for spying on it, expressed its anger by blocking Snowden's airpace.

I'll say it. Spineless hypocrites.

Now they have to explain why they behaved so badly to another head of state in order to please the US government. There will be consequences.

PA515


User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7495 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 11):
Sorry...but if I was to read into your numerous posts 100%, are you insinuating that "heads of states" are untouchable?

I wonder what Egypt has to say about that, just for starters...

The Head of State of a country represents the people of that country - to insult the Head of State of a country is to insult the people of that country. Or put the other way around all the ceremonials that go on around a state visit are the two countries 'Heads' meeting on behalf of their governments / peoples; remember all the perceived slights at such ceremonials, for example flying the Union Jack upside down in Washington during a UK Prime Ministers visit (who isn't a head of state).

Untouchable - no, but touchable only by its own peoples - as in Egypt

The aviation point is (lest we forget) were overflying rights cancelled whilst the plane was enroute?


User currently offlinethaiflyer From Thailand, joined Oct 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7474 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
To keep it aviation here, the Presidential plane has air refuelling capabilities and they have aircraft carriers as well.

Yes the plane has theoretically refueling capabilities.
But this is only done a few times in the beginning for exercise and never (and will be never done) with the president on board.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7346 times:

Now Mr. Morales was paid a courtesy visit by the Austrian president Mr. Fischer, Spain opened its airspace, the flight can refuel at a Canary Island airport and everyone is happy, except Mr, Snowden and may be a few members here.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1103 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7294 times:

Here are some picture's from President Morales' visit today to Vienna. Our President, Dr. Fischer went and met him to try and smooth things over, I guess.

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/au...link=/home/index.do&selChannel=103

(In German)


Theoretically, couldn't the presidental jet count as a "Diplomatic Bag" therefore, non-searchable by agents of another government?


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7264 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 22):
Theoretically, couldn't the presidental jet count as a "Diplomatic Bag" therefore, non-searchable by agents of another government?

Nope, doesn't work like that.


User currently offlinecessnalady From Mexico, joined May 2004, 310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7247 times:

President Morales' plane is reportedly departing VIE now. Where to?

User currently onlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6666 posts, RR: 11
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7920 times:

Quoting cessnalady (Reply 24):

The Canary Islands

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
the flight can refuel at a Canary Island airport




And, to add, the plane has been searched.

Austrian officials said the plane was searched and Mr Snowden, wanted by the US for leaking secrets, was not there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23158242

[Edited 2013-07-03 03:02:20]


wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlinecessnalady From Mexico, joined May 2004, 310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7809 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 16):
Quoting moo (Reply 23):

Absolutely wrong. Law enforcement is just another governmental action, albeit not of the executive branch, and it is subject to limits. One of those limits are foreign territories. A presidential plane is off-limits, just as an embassy or a consulate. Taking action "the world over"is overstepping the limits. And Morales' departure of VIE, without his plane being searched, proves the foregoing, medieval apeshit assertions wrong.
M


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 863 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7975 times:

'FAB1' has departed VIE and is tracking towards Innsbruck on www.flightradar24.com

Just entered Italian airspace south east of Innsbruck.

PA515

[Edited 2013-07-03 03:24:39]

User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7581 times:

France didn't allow a Dassault Falcon over its airspace. Next time they should buy a G650.

User currently offlinethaiflyer From Thailand, joined Oct 2007, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7510 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
Quoting LOWS (Reply 22):
Theoretically, couldn't the presidental jet count as a "Diplomatic Bag" therefore, non-searchable by agents of another government?

Nope, doesn't work like that.

Ok if that is the case lets search Air force one next time for illegal materials. But i think that you have a few problems with trying that.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3854 posts, RR: 5
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7345 times:

Quoting cessnalady (Reply 26):
Absolutely wrong. Law enforcement is just another governmental action, albeit not of the executive branch, and it is subject to limits. One of those limits are foreign territories. A presidential plane is off-limits, just as an embassy or a consulate.

Common misconception, but wrong - embassies, consulates et al are NOT foreign territory, foreign soil or anything of the ilk, they remain the sovereign territory of the host nation, and diplomatic immunity is not a blanket benefit of working in one.

Diplomatic immunity works by the host nation granting those benefits to a set, special list of named individuals and a set, special list of vehicles used for government work from that embassy. It doesn't automatically apply to everything.

A presidential plane is nothing special either, its just another civilian or military plane and can be searched at will by the host nation.

Quoting cessnalady (Reply 26):
Taking action "the world over"is overstepping the limits.

But no one is taking action "the world over" here - regardless of what you would like to believe.

Specific countries denied entry to the aircraft.

And one specific country accepted the aircraft and then searched it.

All of those countries did those actions within their own jurisdictions.

The US is perfectly entitled to ask those countries to do those actions, and those countries are perfectly entitled to say yes or no. That isn't the US taking action "the world over", thats the US using diplomacy to request other countries cooperation.

Quoting cessnalady (Reply 26):
And Morales' departure of VIE, without his plane being searched, proves the foregoing, medieval apeshit assertions wrong.

Except it was searched.

The Bolivian government can bitch and moan all they like, nothing illegal was done here and no jurisdictional boundaries were overstepped - they are calling the refusal of transit permission an "act of aggression", sorry but you have no automatic right to fly over a country in a private aircraft.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7207 times:

some on-line news say that the aircraft was not searched but all passengers and crew had to identify themselves, had their passports checked. May be th airport fire brigade checked with a special camera if the a/c was really empty. Save to assume that they have such a device.


Whatever, moo. . Your detailled contribution is based on the Vienna convention and they should keep the original in Vienna, although it certainly did not know about today'Äs modes of transport.

I can't wait for the retaliation coming from La Paz and the comrades.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7213 times:

Incredible to see European Governments being such puppets, especially after last weekends evidence of how the US Government treats its "friends". Interesting to see what will be the response by Morales and his friends.

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13004 posts, RR: 12
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 7081 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 15):
It is making a complete mockery of freedoms of the air and diplomatic process in direct contravention of quite a few conventions which the US, France, Portugal, Italy, and Spain are signatories to. Snowden was NOT even on the flight. Just because you suspect a fugitive to be on a plane...with no proof...this is not justified.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 7):Bolivia is at a disadvantage, doubt it has many 'Head of States' overflying it, otherwise it could return the compliment. Maybe one day it might get the opportunity
There are always AA flights 980 and 922 MIA-LPB that could be targeted for the sake of reciprocity...

This was a terrible decision by these countries, but they did so either due to pressure by the USA Government or just to get approval of a new trade agreement by the USA government currently in negotiations.
Governments can regulate airspace, but they should not force the landing of an aircraft with a head of state or top minister protected by well established rules and treaties for diplomatic immunity. Even the worst despots we hate here in the USA are allowed to fly into the USA to speak at the UN or meetings with our leaders.
I wonder if Snowden was return to the USA, and how the USA would transport him. Would a DL flight, with a number of air marshals would be used and if so, would some countries deny it overfly rights as the USA is violating all kinds of laws with it's spy program and out of fear that Snowden would be subject to torture or an unfair trial ? What a mess this could turn out to be.


User currently onliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2551 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6876 times:

This whole episode has been a[nother] big embarassment for both the overparanoid US and its EU puppet governments. Amazing how a little guy with a handful of NSA powerpoints can shake up the entire Western world. Snowden has already won.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 28):
France didn't allow a Dassault Falcon over its airspace. Next time they should buy a G650.

  


User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6805 times:

according to CNN, http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/...plane-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


The plane was denied the ability to refuel in Portugal, and then France, Italy, and Spain denied overflight. While the plane was over Austria they were told something to that effect and were offered Vienna if they wanted to land.

some time during this it transpired that the reason for the fiasco was because of a rumor about Snowden and that Portugal, France, Italy and Spain would not allow the over flight until the airplane had been searched - the bolivian government voluntarily allowed the airplane to be searched and the airplane went on its way.



Boiler Up!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8666 posts, RR: 43
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6734 times:

Wouldn't it be funny if, to avoid further embarrassment, a flight that actually does carry Snowden from Moscow to wherever wasn't searched?   


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6659 times:

I was under the impression that such flights have to obtain pre-approval of their flight plan PRIOR to departure (correct me if I'm wrong)

If so the over flying rights were withdrawn in transit by various governments, knowingly

For those siding with the action taken just try to imagine your Head of State being so treated

The point is it opens Pandora's box to such actions by any government anywhere in the world for every Head of State's aircraft to be so treated, I'm pretty sure not even the old USSR took such actions. The precedent is now established and not by some out of the way, back woods rogue state but Spain, France, Italy & ?Austria (or did they just accept them as there was nowhere else to go?)

As a result this type of action will pop up again at some point in the future and that time it might be your Head of State


User currently offlinetxkf2010 From Bermuda, joined Nov 2005, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6656 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12):
The Bolivians don't need to think about anything, America is just chalking up a huge list of countries that will not be favourable to them in the future. From the bugging of EU to this and arming Terrorists in Syria while justifying snooping on its own citizens to stop ironicly "terrorism". The self defeat is flowing out of the white house at the moment.

The USA government needs to worry about the day its own citizens finally stand up against all the bs. I look forward to someone refusing Air Force One permission to enter their airspace and then watch Obama do his hypocritical cry baby routine.

Well said!



...Rastafari Stands Alone...
User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6646 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 30):
Diplomatic immunity works by the host nation granting those benefits to a set, special list of named individuals and a set, special list of vehicles used for government work from that embassy. It doesn't automatically apply to everything.

If that is so why has the UK Government not entered their sovereign soil in London where the Ecuadorian Embassy sits to detain Assange?

Quoting moo (Reply 30):
Except it was searched.

According to the Vice-President of Bolivia, who was just on CNN en Español, the plane was NOT searched. Austrian authorities stood at the door and looked at all the passports of those who disembarked, all which were Bolivian. No Austrian authorities walked inside the plane according to what the Vice-President said.

[Edited 2013-07-03 05:29:59]

User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 18):
Now they have to explain why they behaved so badly to another head of state in order to please the US government. There will be consequences.

No there won't. The EU heads-of-state know full well that they aren't any cleaner than the US government, and it's plausible they now know what the US knows, and right or wrong aren't any more eager for those facts to be spilled than Obama has been.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
I can't wait for the retaliation coming from La Paz and the comrades.

Without being overly crass and insulting, what exactly are the Bolivians going to do? Stop selling us cocaine? Their Venezuelan allies aren't going to stop oil sales because they need the cash from sales to subsidize their people and their buddies in order to prevent a civil uprising. Should Bolivia refuse overflight rights, the same will be extended to them, which I daresay isn't going to hurt American Airlines too much, but will deny Bolivians their only nonstop access to the States.


User currently offlineOwleye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

FAB-001 has just crossed the Portugese coast heading for the Canaries (?) to re-fuel. Route: Vienna, Milan, Marseille, Barcelona, south of Madrid, south of Lisbon, leaving the Continent south of Setubal. Source Flightradar24

Big version: Width: 1226 Height: 748 File size: 451kb


[Edited 2013-07-03 06:05:39]

User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6308 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 40):
Stop selling us cocaine?

What a disgusting and ignorant commentary, you should be banned for this. Shame on your mindset, no wonder you find this incident ok.

[Edited 2013-07-03 05:52:45]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 40):

Without being overly crass and insulting, what exactly are the Bolivians going to do?

The answer is: Nada, except some harsh words which he has uttered already. Was a sarcastic remark from my side. Things like that happen, Couple of years ago our very Mrs Merkel was denied overflying Iran for whatever reason, may be she refused to wear a head scarf while over the holy country.

She just shrugged that off.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineOwleye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5971 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 34):
overparanoid US and its EU puppet governments

Lovin' this comment


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5917 times:

Quoting Bogota (Reply 42):
What a disgusting and ignorant commentary, you should be banned for this. Shame on your mindset, no wonder you find this incident ok.

Ignorant? Bolivia has at one point been the supplier of 1/3 of the world's cocaine and is estimated to be the world's third largest producer. In dollars coca is Bolivia's most important agricultural product, and that money goes to feed people and children who live in areas that at present time don't have a better alternative. Who's the largest consumer of cocaine? That would be the United States. Sorry if the facts are disturbing. If I have to chew on my country's dirty little secrets and short-comings day in and day out by people who gleefully point them out, why shouldn't others?

[Edited 2013-07-03 06:19:15]

User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5704 times:

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 37):
The point is it opens Pandora's box to such actions by any government anywhere in the world for every Head of State's aircraft to be so treated, I'm pretty sure not even the old USSR took such actions. The precedent is now established and not by some out of the way, back woods rogue state but Spain, France, Italy & ?Austria (or did they just accept them as there was nowhere else to go?)

So far the main report I saw was "Spain and France" refusing it transit and it ended up in Austria because they were happy for it to land there. France has been backtracking and changing its mind over the story all morning. Hilarious after they were the big mouths saying they shouldn't tolerate bugging from US to then bow down to them on this. Gutless. This Would have been a perfect chance to tell Obama to eff off and show him the negatives of treating your "allies" in such a way.


User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 45):
Ignorant?

Totally, First for starters your country has zero capability to ban or lets say stop cocaine imports from Bolivia, the whole world knows that. Second we are trying to hold a decent conversation for you to rant a flaming comment that has an obvious tint of insult on the Bolivian people.



[Edited 2013-07-03 06:26:57]

User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5463 times:

Quoting Bogota (Reply 47):
First for starters your country has zero capability to ban or lets say stop cocaine imports from Bolivia, the whole world knows that.

I wasn't aware that was a point of discussion, nor did I imply as such.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 47):
Second we are trying to hold a decent conversation for you to rant a flaming comment that has an obvious tint of insult on the Bolivian people.

Considering the topic at hand was Bolivian retaliation and coca production is the primary revenue source in Bolivia it is perfectly on point. I have nothing against Bolivia.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 45):
In dollars coca is Bolivia's most important agricultural product, and that money goes to feed people and children who live in areas that at present time don't have a better alternative.

You're right. That comment was totally out of line and insulting to Bolivians.   


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5081 times:

The news is reporting this morning that Morales' plane did not have its overflight rights removed by the countries it was claimed had done so yesterday:

Snowden case: France denies blocking Bolivia plane

Quote:
PARIS (AP) — French officials denied Wednesday that France refused to let the Bolivian president's plane cross over its airspace amid suspicions that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was aboard. Spain, too, said the plane was free to cross its territory.

The plane carrying President Evo Morales home from Moscow was rerouted to Austria Tuesday night, in a new twist to the international diplomatic drama over Snowden and the widespread U.S. surveillance that he revealed.

Bolivian officials said that France, Portugal, Spain and Italy blocked the plane from flying over their territories, and angrily demanded explanation.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinekatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 702 posts, RR: 6
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4682 times:

My $0.02. I think France and Portugal overreacted. You don't do something like this to a head of state, unless you have strong suspicion (or evidence) that indeed a crime or other serious infraction has been committed. I think it was disrespectful and plain wrong. But of course, we do not know all the details, and maybe France and Portugal had some information that is not available to us.

Regarding the European governments outrage about US surveillance, it is all posturing for public relation purpose. The reality is that all governments spy on their citizens, and European governments appreciate the fact the Americans are doing part of the dirty job for them.

With all its faults, and as much as I dislike the fact that somebody in NSA is reading my emails, US is still the most transparent country in the world, and the amount of free speech and press independence possible here is something many EU countries can only dream of (and btw I am an EU citizen, currently located in the US, so I have first-hand experience with both).

[Edited 2013-07-03 07:22:56]

User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

Quoting katekebo (Reply 50):
Regarding the European governments outrage about US surveillance, it is all posturing for public relation purpose.

You are exactly right. The outrage is just for domestic public consumption.

Quoting katekebo (Reply 50):
The reality is that all governments spy on their citizens, and European governments appreciate the fact the Americans are doing part of the dirty job for them.

I have a slightly different theory. It appears governments figured out a way around local privacy laws. Who knows they may even have a treaty. It is more likely few countries (US/EU/Russia...) got together to collect data worldwide. No country collects data on their own citizens, others collect and pass it on. Perfectly legal according to local laws, gives plausible deniability, yet every country has the data they need.

4.3 Million (3.3 Million federal employees + 1 Million contractors) has access to same documents Snowden had. Anything with so many people have access is not considered a secret.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2370 posts, RR: 21
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 34):
This whole episode has been a[nother] big embarassment for both the overparanoid US and its EU puppet governments. Amazing how a little guy with a handful of NSA powerpoints can shake up the entire Western world. Snowden has already won.

Well said. Both the US and the EU look like big losers.


User currently offlineb2319 From China, joined Jan 2013, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

Quoting clickhappy (Thread starter):
US is still the most transparent country in the world

Can you please substantiate this, via a reference?

I have visited around 50 countries in the world and would never make such a statement. Of all the countries I have visited, and I include the US, my personal view would be Finland.

Regards

B-2319


User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

A plane carry a head of state is considered extension of that nation and their sovereignty. Any force able searching of that aircraft can be considered as an act of war. Just as if you enter another nations embassy without permission that as well can be considered an act of war. If in fact the Bolivian aircraft was searched it had to be voluntarily.

User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 54):
A plane carry a head of state is considered extension of that nation and their sovereignty. Any force able searching of that aircraft can be considered as an act of war. Just as if you enter another nations embassy without permission that as well can be considered an act of war.

Totally agreed at the very least its a Casus Belli


User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

If there's any lesson to be learned here, it's that heads of state shouldn't make snarky jokes at the expense of other nations while on foreign soil.

User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1284 posts, RR: 3
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2946 times:

Quoting dfambro (Reply 56):
If there's any lesson to be learned here, it's that heads of state shouldn't make snarky jokes at the expense of other nations while on foreign soil.


I see. So you're postulating that a foreign Head of State shoots off a clever remark, perhaps along the lines of 'thought of offering Mr. Snowden a ride on my jet', which automatically qualifies the US to set the international equivalent of the TSA on him? Forcing his transport down on foreign soil, only to be subjected to a humiliating check?

I suppose that's one way of running, or should I have said ruining, international relations. Must say, the timing from DC is absolutely spiffing; I cannot recall seeing a worse performance on the stage of foreign policy this side of Dubya and General washissname showing us doctored footage in the UN when they wanted to have a war with Saddam. Wonderful stuff.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1257 posts, RR: 8
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2914 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
This isn't making a mockery of anything - Snowden is a wanted man with indictments outstanding, that right there is due process as "capturing" is all part of that process. As for diplomatic immunity, no such right automatically exists and those countries can indeed refuse entry or overflight of whomever they wish.

If the police have reasonable suspicion to believe you have a wanted person in your car, you can bet your arse they have the power to stop you on your journey. Same deal here.

This isn't a trip down the L.A. freeway in a Ford Bronco.

A government plane carrying a head of state is no different than a diplomatic mission - this kind of violation of diplomatic status and international law is a very serious matter.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 19):

The aviation point is (lest we forget) were overflying rights cancelled whilst the plane was enroute?

Which puts a head of state at physical risk. I'm certain the people of Poland would opine that such a situation could have very dire consequences.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 25):


Austrian officials said the plane was searched and Mr Snowden, wanted by the US for leaking secrets, was not there.

So not only was diplomatic status and international law violated and a head of state put at physical risk (albeit low risk), he wasn't even on the plane.

A dark precedent set when none needed to be - because the guy they wanted wasn't there anyway.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 45):

Ignorant? Bolivia has at one point been the supplier of 1/3 of the world's cocaine and is estimated to be the world's third largest producer.

Lithium.

It's in your cell phone, it's in your computer, it's probably in dozens of other things you use every day. Bolivia has something like half of the world's reserves of Lithium, maybe more. It is the Saudi Arabia of Lithium, just as it was once the world's largest silver mine.

So before you write off Bolivia as some 1980s-style drug republic, be careful - because we're going to need that Lithium in the future, and they got it. And the mining industry in Bolivia is controlled by the state.

A state in that position - dependent in part on natural resource exports - needs to be very careful with how it manages those exports, lest it end up in a situation like Nauru - once the world's wealthiest nation per capita, now a distant impoverished pacific island thanks to overmining it's Phosphate resources. So it will consider ever diplomatic end about how it relates to other countries and what it's trade policies are.


User currently offlinepliersinsight From United States of America, joined May 2008, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

What does this political debate have to do with civil aviation?

The aircraft involved is not a commercial aircraft.

The occupants are not private citizens.

The flight was not conducted by an airline.

The issue relates entirely to politics and will simply result in a flame war.

Bolivia has claimed the US has hampered their Presidential flights before, claiming they were trying to plant drugs on their plane to weaken credibility. Old news.

This belongs in non-av.


User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2716 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 48):
Considering the topic at hand was Bolivian retaliation and coca production is the primary revenue source in Bolivia it is perfectly on point. I have nothing against Bolivia.

Actually not, Bolivia´s main source of revenue is Natural Gas, which they hold the second largest reserves in South America. That together with largest reserves of Lithium in the World has made them in the last few years very interesting for energy companies around the world. So no, not good for US and European energetic interests.

Your rant trying to discredit Bolivia as an irrelevant nation, just because it is a devoloping one says all anybody needs to know about your cultural awareness.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 57):
I cannot recall seeing a worse performance on the stage of foreign policy this side of Dubya and General washissname showing us doctored footage in the UN when they wanted to have a war with Saddam. Wonderful stuff.

IF the story is true. As I posted above, France has denied withdrawing overflight rights for the Bolivian president's plane.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Quoting katekebo (Reply 50):
With all its faults, and as much as I dislike the fact that somebody in NSA is reading my emails, US is still the most transparent country in the world, and the amount of free speech and press independence possible here is something many EU countries can only dream of (and btw I am an EU citizen, currently located in the US, so I have first-hand experience with both).

The most laughable crap I have ever read in my life. Transparent in what way? Secret Prisons? Secret snooping? Secret Surveillance? Secret UAV wars from Africa to Pakistan? Silencing the press which seems to be Obamas new fetish? You have no clue what you are talking about.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1284 posts, RR: 3
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 61):
IF the story is true. As I posted above, France has denied withdrawing overflight rights for the Bolivian president's plane.

Which bit are you unclear on mate? Someone prompted a bit of airspace to be closed, wherever it was and however big it was, and suggest landing an aircraft carrying the Bolivian Head of Stae in Vienna. Sure as sh1t wasn't the skipper on the Falcon doing that. And we all know who's hunting Snowden like he's some kind of Hannibal Lector on the run, and that those hunters can pull a mighty big diplomatic punch if they need to. We just never knew they could swing so wild, so wrongly, and with such bad timing.

Whether or not the cheese eating surrender monkey's are attempting a public 180 doesn't really matter.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 63):
Which bit are you unclear on mate?

Just pointing out that the countries accused of closing their airspace yesterday are denying it today. It's called "keeping an open mind". Let's see what the whole story is before rating the foreign policy performance of the accused parties.

Which bit are you unclear about, mate?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 950 posts, RR: 3
Reply 65, posted (1 year 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2551 times:

Why did they not go to Switzerland which is not in the EU and is historically neutral? Unfortunately there is a valid warrant for his arrest so it can't just be ignored otherwise you might as well ignore all the warrants issued. I doubt the Swiss would have cowed to demands to search the plane.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 66, posted (1 year 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2550 times:

Me wonders how the Swiss managed to keep their butt out of this. I think at a time the Falcon was closer to ZRH than VIE. May be ATC pretended they went to the loo, had that before a while ago.

In any case, sometimes there is a benefit closing down airports at night.  

Now, meanwhile Morales pretends he has been kidnapped in Europe. Holy crap, that will make him a saint with the illiteral masses. Of course he will not tell that the Austrian President made his Honeurs and that they treated him with all the courtesy that country can extend.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 67, posted (1 year 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2528 times:

First, let me say that I have had great doubts over this story from the start, and have not seen any proof of it so far, certainly no admission by anyone in France.

I just read the latest AP news, now the foreign ministry is officially denying the story. Meanwhile there is a demonstration in front of the embassy in Bolivia.

Second, the idea behind the denial would not be to prevent a potential "criminal/spy/whatever" from flying freely over your country, but rather, prevent him from landing on your soil, because then he becomes your problem. Of course once the plane is over your country, it can declare an emergency and the deed is done.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6094 posts, RR: 31
Reply 68, posted (1 year 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2503 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 65):
Why did they not go to Switzerland which is not in the EU and is historically neutral?

Interesting question. I had not thought of that. Maybe nowadays that Swiss neutrality is just good marketing.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 65):
Unfortunately there is a valid warrant for his arrest so it can't just be ignored otherwise you might as well ignore all the warrants issued.

Is it an international warrant? Has Interpol received such? I´m asking because I really don´t know.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 66):
Holy crap, that will make him a saint with the illiteral masses.

Pray tell, which "illiteral" masses?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 66):
Of course he will not tell that the Austrian President made his Honeurs and that they treated him with all the courtesy that country can extend.

What courtesy? Austrian authorities boarded the plane and ID´d everybody. Mozart himself could have made his "honeurs", it does not change the fact the authorities boarded the plane.



MGGS
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 69, posted (1 year 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 68):
Interesting question. I had not thought of that. Maybe nowadays that Swiss neutrality is just good marketing.

The Swiss invited Polanski to a film festival then grabbed him as soon as he got there. Only to decide in the end that they would not extradite him !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1284 posts, RR: 3
Reply 70, posted (1 year 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2411 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 64):
Just pointing out that the countries accused of closing their airspace yesterday are denying it today. It's called "keeping an open mind". Let's see what the whole story is before rating the foreign policy performance of the accused parties.

Which bit are you unclear about, mate?

In the greater scheme of things, whether or not one country or the other closed its airspace or not is largely irrelevant. Something, or rather someone, made the Bolivian President make an unscheduled stop for an inspection. We all know who that someone was. As for the French, well, they love playing both sides of the street. Funny thing is they haven't worked out it's also a great way of getting hit by traffic coming both ways.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting Bogota (Reply 60):
Actually not, Bolivia´s main source of revenue is Natural Gas

I was clearly speaking in terms of agriculture. But since you brought it up...

Quoting Bogota (Reply 60):
which they hold the second largest reserves in South America. That together with largest reserves of Lithium in the World has made them in the last few years very interesting for energy companies around the world.

1 World 208,400,000,000,000
2 Russia 47,570,000,000,000
3 Iran 33,070,000,000,000
4 Qatar 25,200,000,000,000
5 Turkmenistan 24,300,000,000,000
6 Saudi Arabia 8,028,000,000,000
7 United States 7,716,000,000,000
8 United Arab Emirates 6,089,000,000,000
9 Venezuela 5,524,000,000,000
10 Nigeria 5,110,000,000,000
.
.
.
18 European Union 2,008,000,000,000
19 Norway 2,007,000,000,000
.
.
.
42 Bolivia 281,500,000,000.

All values in cubic meters.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 60):
So no, not good for US and European energetic interests.

I'll let the above numbers speak for themselves.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 60):
Your rant trying to discredit Bolivia as an irrelevant nation, just because it is a devoloping one says all anybody needs to know about your cultural awareness.

It's not a rant. It's pragmatism, and reality. Bolivia simply does not have any means to punch above their weight. They can complain about just about anything they want to, and if nobody wants to listen to them, then they don't have to. That doesn't make it right but welcome to the real world--it's a cruel place. As for your comments about my cultural awareness, if you would care to pursue that line of conversation privately I'll be happy to detail how I've lived in more places among different cultures than you have fingers.

[Edited 2013-07-03 13:23:10]

User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 68):
Pray tell, which "illiteral" masses?

It's not a big secret Morales won his seat on a populist platform. I believe the Perons called such masses "descamisados."

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 66):
Now, meanwhile Morales pretends he has been kidnapped in Europe.

He doesn't miss a chance to poke "the imperialists" in the eye. Sometimes he's right. Most of the time he's grandstanding.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 65):
Why did they not go to Switzerland which is not in the EU and is historically neutral?

Snowden is clearly a fool, and probably a bit of a megalomaniac. I don't really have a problem with him whistle blowing--he stated what anyone with a brain already deduced--but he is an idiot to have done so and then identified himself. Why would they want to deal with that and potentially have it backfire in their faces? And that's a legitimate question for just about anybody offering asylum. Who would want to put up with that other than to just be able to say "We stood up to big bad America." Putin clearly doesn't care enough about him to help other than not go out of his way to apprehend him, because he doesn't stand to benefit anything from it. It's a PR nightmare oddly enough of equal proportions to the one the United States finds itself in with regards to the revelations.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6094 posts, RR: 31
Reply 73, posted (1 year 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2334 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting luckyone (Reply 71):
Bolivia simply does not have any means to punch above their weight.

Bolivia on its own, maybe not. But right now, the whole of SouthAmerica, including Brazil are either pretty pissed or pretty surprised in realizing that the great big bully has not changed a bit since the days of the cold war. Add to that the fact that China is increasingly becoming an ever more important player in the region, then what you are saying is not really "pragmatical" but

Quoting Bogota (Reply 60):
says all anybody needs to know about your cultural awareness.
Quoting luckyone (Reply 72):
It's not a big secret Morales won his seat on a populist platform. I believe the Perons called such masses "descamisados."

I still don´t get, except for a prety Eurocentric view, how they are "illiteral masses"

Quoting luckyone (Reply 72):
He doesn't miss a chance to poke "the imperialists" in the eye. Sometimes he's right. Most of the time he's grandstanding.

Well, in this huge mess, he´s right.



MGGS
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 73):
Bolivia on its own, maybe not. But right now, the whole of SouthAmerica, including Brazil are either pretty pissed or pretty surprised in realizing that the great big bully has not changed a bit since the days of the cold war.

Are they really surprised or are they just taking the opportunity to get their two bits in? You had me until the following:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 73):
Add to that the fact that China is increasingly becoming an ever more important player in the region, then what you are saying is not really "pragmatical" but

The players might have changed a bit but the game has not. Said countries should be just as wary of getting into bed with the Chinese as they claim to be with the United States. China makes absolutely no bones about the fact that it's only interested in what's good for China, so go right ahead and jump into bed with the Chinese. Ask a few African nations how that's going because there is no such thing as a free lunch and the Chinese will call in their favors just like anybody else. We are no longer in an ideological war whereby it's Communism vs Capitalism (all a sham, because neither country was purely capitalist, or communist), but the top two or three economic powers--especially ones separated by culture and language--are always going to butt heads. Always. Be it China and the US, or Australia and Finland.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 73):
Quoting Bogota (Reply 60):
says all anybody needs to know about your cultural awareness.
Quoting luckyone (Reply 72):
It's not a big secret Morales won his seat on a populist platform. I believe the Perons called such masses "descamisados."

I still don´t get, except for a prety Eurocentric view, how they are "illiteral masses"

Given that "illiteral" means "not literal" I don't know either. However, the poster was probably intending to say illiterate, which is an open-ended statement. Bolivia's adult literacy rate is estimated to be between 86-90%.

[Edited 2013-07-03 13:49:14]

User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 73):
Bolivia on its own, maybe not. But right now, the whole of SouthAmerica, including Brazil are either pretty pissed or pretty surprised in realizing that the great big bully has not changed a bit since the days of the cold war. Add to that the fact that China is increasingly becoming an ever more important player in the region, then what you are saying is not really "pragmatical" but

It seems the person you are debating with has absolutely no idea about politics. Countries have allies, Other countries watching on will also be wary of the USA actions. Its a build up. He can claim Bolivia is small fry but when they continue their little crusade against countries it will build up 1 by 1 until nobody trusts them and when they need some help nobody answers. As I have mentioned before the population of America will be the enlightened ones, Day by day it seems the White house is on a cruise to the land of self defeat. Snoop on its own citizens, Bug its press, Bug its military allies, Crack down on protestors.. supply weapons to terrorists.. Ridiculous cretins.

Of course history is littered with countries and empires who thought they were to strong or important to ever fall. Some people never learn.


User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 76, posted (1 year 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 71):
I'll let the above numbers speak for themselves.

I had no idea Russia was so big in Lithium, or perhaps your are so infuriated by someone correcting you that you posted Natural Gas figures because you were unable to understand my post. So yes, try again, read slowly and if you understand what I was talking about then stop ranting and refresh your cultural awareness.

I do not really care if you lived in 1 or 20 countries, it is what you show you learned there. Your commentary is far from a person that understands other cultures and respects them.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 75):
Countries have allies, Other countries watching on will also be wary of the USA actions.

If you think for even a minute that other countries, including allies aren't quietly and earnestly assessing what's going on with regards to their own intelligence-gathering than you're more naive than you state that I am. Every nation has one. From the CIA to the Chinese to MI6.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1139 posts, RR: 17
Reply 78, posted (1 year 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

In my honest opinion:

The whole matter of how the U.S. and some western European countries have handled this whole affair is a joke.
From my point of view and that of many I know, it looks like a P.R. disaster where these countries have lost a whole lot of credibility and look like a laughing stock right now.

Obama's comments towards this case (denouncing him as some 29 year old hacker) are one of the only reasonable ones coming from the U.S. Everything else just looks ridiculous. Prohibiting the overflight of a head of state on a suspicion just takes the cake. By the way I am not pointing any fingers at the U.S. on this particular matter. But if the French, Spanish or whatever governments wanted to come out looking like a bunch of clowns - congratulations! In my eyes you are.

The way this entire matter was handled is worse than any damage "Some 29 year old hacker" could have ever hoped to accomplish. All the U.S. had to do at the start is quietly put him on a wanted list and then laugh the matter off because: face it - there is NOTHING that can be done to get him back in the meantime. Instead they go about looking helpless and resorting to some ridiculous attempts to threaten countries where he applied for asylum. And then comes this last idiotic move to stop an overflight. Amazing. Not only make a laughing stock out of yourselves, but piss off a bunch of people in the process.

I do hope that this is just a misunderstanding and that the aircraft was not prohibited from anyone's airspace and that nobody searched the aircraft in Vienna. If not, lets just say this is becoming one ongoing comedy where the actors just keep digging themselves a deeper hole and throwing more people in for the rest of the world to laugh at.

P.S. If this did happen as the Bolivians are saying I want to ask a question to all those who see nothing wrong with this Morales situation - Do those countries in question also ban CIA flights from their airspace? Because if not...we have a bit of an issue, don't we?



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting Bogota (Reply 76):
I had no idea Russia was so big in Lithium, or perhaps your are so infuriated by someone correcting you that you posted Natural Gas figures because you were unable to understand my post. So yes, try again, read slowly and if you understand what I was talking about then stop ranting and refresh your cultural awareness.

You brought up natural gas, Bolivia's reserves, and subsequent energy needs and the US and EU not looking good in comparison. Read for yourself what you wrote. And since you obviously followed the fact that I was posting natural gas reserves in response to your mentioning of them I apparently read your post quite well, thanks.
I was quite clearly speaking about agriculture in an earlier post and you changed the subject to natural gas because apparently the issue of coca/cocaine touched a nerve (your posted flag and username might indicate why), so I felt it necessary to post the relevant information regarding natural gas. You don't like the facts, and thus have decided to attack me personally, without even knowing my name. My cultural awareness is just fine thank you, and I even defended the Bolivian people in my post. Perhaps you should be the one reading a little more slowly.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2263 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 78):
Do those countries in question also ban CIA flights from their airspace? Because if not...we have a bit of an issue, don't we?

They would be perfectly within their right to be. It is their airspace after all.


User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2266 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 74):
Said countries should be just as wary of getting into bed with the Chinese as they claim to be with the United States

Absolutely right, that is why multilateral relations are so important.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 74):
the Chinese will call in their favors just like anybody else.

And most of the world has seen favors claimed at very high prices, especially from the Anglo and European nations. Nice to have other business partners.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 74):
China makes absolutely no bones about the fact that it's only interested in what's good for China,

Nice to see there are countries that speak straight forward and honestly and do not hide behind the human rights, free trade, anti-corruption fake fronts when they only use this as a political arm to provide advantage in economic interests.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 74):
Bolivia's adult literacy rate is estimated to be between 86-90%.

So according to you between 10 and 14% of the Bolivian population elected Morales as a President.

I am not a fan of Morales by any means, but this type of bullying definitely is out of any decent standards, by and diplomatic interactions and definitely does not do any good for the respect of international relations in the procurement of a peaceful world.

Sad to see the so called "democratic" world that so much respects the rule of law totally disregard so much the international order. Hopefully this will not back fire one day, when the same situation is the other way around because most of the nations will definitely not back those who have continuously showed the lack of respect to the rest of the world. As the world becomes more and more multilateral in terms of forces this type of situations will definitely become less and less tolerated.


User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (1 year 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2225 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 79):
Read for yourself what you wrote.

You read it again, I am sure you are able to understand.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 79):
You brought up natural gas, Bolivia's reserves

Second in South America if you read knowledgably. And Lithium reserves which you conveniently ignored. So read again and try thinking before you answer. Breathe again and try and discuss decently.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 79):
the issue of coca/cocaine touched a nerve

Actually not the coca subject, it was your condescending comment trying to imply that Bolivia has nothing going for it except coca production.

Which by the way you ignorantly said:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 48):
Considering the topic at hand was Bolivian retaliation and coca production is the primary revenue source in Bolivia it is perfectly on point. I have nothing against Bolivia.
Quoting luckyone (Reply 79):
(your posted flag and username might indicate why),

I perfectly understand from your posts and comments that you might have this type of bias towards my flag or user-name, it does not surprise me. I could easily say the same about you and your flag, but my life has brought me very close to many, many fantastic, intelligent, knowledgeable and cultured US citizens that honor your great country, so no I will stay away from the type of remark that generalizes a nation through one stereotype.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 1 week ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting Bogota (Reply 82):
Second in South America if you read knowledgably.

Indeed I did. I can read perfectly well. I think the person aggravated and needing to slow down is you. You are putting words in my mouth.
If you read knowledgeably that's 42nd in the world. And 27 times less than the United States (which has the 7th most, higher than ANY South American). Still less than Europe, which doesn't measure well with your below statement.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 60):
So no, not good for US and European energetic interests.
Quoting Bogota (Reply 82):
And Lithium reserves which you conveniently ignored.

Because your statement was correct regarding lithium. You brought up natural gas made a statement regarding natural gas that deserved a little extra attention. Why would I argue a point that is indeed, correct? And I'll add this to the conversation: http://www.businessinsider.com/new-w...t-could-meet-all-us-demand-2013-4.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 81):
So according to you between 10 and 14% of the Bolivian population elected Morales as a President.

I don't recall saying so...

Quoting luckyone (Reply 74):
However, the poster was probably intending to say illiterate, which is an open-ended statement. Bolivia's adult literacy rate is estimated to be between 86-90%.

What I did say was this...

Quoting luckyone (Reply 72):

It's not a big secret Morales won his seat on a populist platform. I believe the Perons called such masses "descamisados."


Please tell me how you inferred "illiterate" from "populist," and I'll gladly make sure I change my language.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 82):
I perfectly understand from your posts and comments that you might have this type of bias towards my flag or user-name, it does not surprise me.

Moreso the fact that Colombia has a violent association with cocaine. And I've dated more than one Colombian who was quite embarrassed about it. Much like I am embarrassed by slavery and the KKK.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 81):
I am not a fan of Morales by any means, but this type of bullying definitely is out of any decent standards, by and diplomatic interactions and definitely does not do any good for the respect of international relations in the procurement of a peaceful world.

On that we agree. I didn't say it was right. I simply stated that was the way the world works.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 84, posted (1 year 1 week ago) and read 2174 times:

So it seems that indeed France is playing both sides (or it was just a screwup) :

BBC :

Quote:
Speaking in Berlin, French President Francois Hollande said he granted permission as soon as he knew it was Mr Morales' plane.

The French foreign ministry issued a statement on the incident.

Ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot said: "The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales' plane to fly over [French] territory."

WaPo :

Quote:
French narrative: They had permission, but maybe not at first

The European countries accused by Morales of diverting his flight and doing the United States’ bidding have not been particularly talkative. France has issued the most information but it has also been difficult to parse.

French government spokeswoman Najat Vallaud-Belkacem said, “France ended up authorizing the flight over its airspace by Mr. Morales’ plane.” But, according to the Associated Press, she would not say whether France had initially refused.

“There was contradictory information about the identity of the passengers aboard one or two aircraft, because there was also a doubt about the number of planes that wanted to fly over France,” French President Francois Hollande said in Germany, apparently allowing the possibility that the flight had been denied permission. “As soon as I knew that it was the plane of Bolivia’s president, I immediately gave my authorization for the overflight.”



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2184 posts, RR: 5
Reply 85, posted (1 year 1 week ago) and read 2172 times:

Snowden is one of the worst traitors to his own country in decades, US or otherwise. The man has violated every oath he's ever taken in his work for the government and violated I'm sure what must be at least a hundred pages of air tight employment contracts. He just said "fuck it" one day and started publishing secret documents he swore never to reveal, and he did so while fleeing the very country he was working for, and published the details in the foreign press. You don't like your job? You can't sleep at night because your principles are hurting? The go sell real estate.

A liberal as I am, I can't think of many people that deserve an Israeli-style hit job more than this asshole. I don't like my government sometimes but I still love my country, and I still know what it means to be true to your word. Someone doesn't like that we're going after this guy? Who gives a shit? Get this asshole back home, alive or in a body bag. And if he makes somewhere alive then we should be turning the screws as tight as they'll go.

Would you defend an asshole like this if he was from your country?


User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 84):
rench President Francois Hollande said in Germany, apparently allowing the possibility that the flight had been denied permission. “As soon as I knew that it was the plane of Bolivia’s president, I immediately gave my authorization for the overflight.”

Apparently the French President is personally watching over French airspace. Just when you think this story can't get any sillier...

Quoting wingman (Reply 85):
Would you defend an asshole like this if he was from your country?

Indeed, von Stauffenberg should be prosecuted for manslaughter. It is the law!


User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2087 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 83):
And I've dated more than one Colombian who was quite embarrassed about it.
I feel pity for those you dated, I on the other hand am very proud of my country and the many brave men who have shed lots of blood trying to keep drugs of the noses of many in your country.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 83):
Moreso the fact that Colombia has a violent association with cocaine.

We have had our share of violence due to the fight against cocaine yet our hard work has turned this country around into one of the most succesful nations in the developing world.

But this is just like your country still to today, it suffers a terrible association of violence due to the same problem. The biggest difference is between the double standard of criminalizing the pushers while feeling pity for the users.

But anyhow, this thread is about Bolivia the US and its puppets in Europe, not about Colombia and your stereotypes about my country. I understand it is easier, taking into account your ignorance about this subject, to debate by trying to undermine my credibility and by attacking my background and my nation instead of debating in a civilized manner your ideas about the central subject.

What can I say, maybe you should work hard to put into practice your "fantastic" idea about banning Bolivia´s export of cocaine into the US, I am pretty sure many people including me would be very happy about it. If your plan works maybe try and penalize Colombia and Peru also by banning our cocaine in the US also. I will build you a statue and forget the stupidity read in this thread.

Now back to Bolivia, Morales has landed safely in Latin American soil, he is now in Brasil. For the time being plenty of political ammunition is being loaded at the OAS and the UN. Very probably not much attention will the press in Europe or the US (no surprise there) pay about the subject, but sadly this occassion gives the Latin American extreme left political space for gaining more an more followers.

I understand that Latin America for many old timers in the US or Europe is just the back yard of the USA, but 600 million inhabitants and a economy of over 5 trillion in size is far from small for others like the Chinese . And each and every action like that of today sends the wrong message for the US and European interests. I believe in free trade, the rule of law, the respect of others and especially in democracy which begins by understanding that others think different than I due we still live respectfully side by side.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4291 posts, RR: 12
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2029 times:

All I can say is that there is true outrage in Latin America about this, towards both Europe and North America.

Interesting how such an unexpected thing could lead to such long-lasting repercutions.

I think the EU and the USA can forget about a free-trade agreement for starters now, and probably many cooperation agreements will be rescinded.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6094 posts, RR: 31
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2023 times:
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Quoting Derico (Reply 88):
true outrage in Latin America about this, towards both Europe and North America.

And that´s an understatement. Even Mexico who is an unconditional ally of the EU has condemned the actions and there is talk of calling back their ambassador, both to the EU and to the specific countries where the landing or overflying permits were denied.

UNASUR is meeting and I think the OAS is too.



MGGS
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4291 posts, RR: 12
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

It is trully a conflagration of mines the Europeans and North Americans have stepped on:

1. Taking this action against a head of state (which obviously touches a very particular nerve in the leaders)
2. Taking this action against the region's poorest and generally most dismissed country (Bolivia)
3. Taking this action against the first 100% indigenous president

Plop.

Meanwhile, the EU and the USA have given Argentina the gift of the year. Now CFK has true and genuine ammo to stoke the fire and say "I told you so about these 21st century colonialists... That's why we fight the USA's presence in Latin America at every turn and refuse to be friendly to them, that's why we harp on and on and on about the Falklands, that's why we blocked ALCA in 2005 in Bush's face, and now we are single-hand ruining the EU-Mercosur free trade pact, that's why we resciend all our treaties with them and take their companies away and refuse to pay the debts to the Italian/German grannies... you can never trust those incorrigible gringos".

Kirchner has already called all Europeans and North Americans "crazy". This is just the start as obviously she wants to end cooperation with European and North American governments, except for the most essential, or those that will bring her hard currency.

Eventually the rest of Latin America will cool down a bit and I'm sure both them and EU/US will try some reconciliation, Argentina's government will most certainly not however.

[Edited 2013-07-03 20:51:58]


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1960 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 73):
I still don´t get, except for a prety Eurocentric view, how they are "illiteral masses"

well, I put "illiteral" into quotation marks which, as I have learned many decades ago, have a purpose. Mr. Morales depends on the masses who may be able to write and read, but do not have access to modern communiation such as the net, or international publications from whoich they could gain a second or third opinion.

I would not call them "descaminados" but they are manipulable by people like Morales, who can be called a demagogue but certainly not a democrat.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 86):
Indeed, von Stauffenberg should be prosecuted for manslaughter. It is the law!

Comparing Snowden with von Stauffenberg is a disgrace and gives the impression that you do not even know the basic law of our country. I suggest you start with article 20.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 91):
Comparing Snowden with von Stauffenberg is a disgrace and gives the impression that you do not even know the basic law of our country. I suggest you start with article 20.


Let's not waste comment space with fake outrage and boring patronizing. Von Stauffenberg broke the law. This is supposedly all that matters according to what wingman wrote.


User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1930 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 73):
still don´t get, except for a prety Eurocentric view, how they are "illiteral masses"

In defense of PanHAM: he has in the past said the same stuff about politicians and voters in Berlin, so I doubt it is Eurocentrism.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 94, posted (1 year 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1930 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 92):
Let's not waste comment space with fake outrage and boring patronizing. Von Stauffenberg broke the law. This is supposedly all that matters according to what wingman wrote.

There is always a law which is above "laws" in a dictatorship. The basic human rights. Tyrannicide is legal under the conditions von Stauffenberg tried that.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6094 posts, RR: 31
Reply 95, posted (1 year 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1926 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 91):
do not have access to modern communiation such as the net, or international publications from whoich they could gain a second or third opinion.

And you know that how exactly? Have you ever been to Bolivia? Because I have. I lived there for a year and they are more connected than the tribal village idea you insist of portraying them into.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 92):
Let's not waste comment space with fake outrage and boring patronizing.

Don´t sweat it. He´s been like that since this thread started.



MGGS
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 94):
There is always a law which is above "laws" in a dictatorship. The basic human rights. Tyrannicide is legal under the conditions von Stauffenberg tried that.

Under which specific legal framework was tyrannicide legal in Germany on June 20th 1944?

Most people understand that there is a distinction between what is moral and what is legal. wingman was making a legal argument about what for those disagreeing with his stance is a moral question. There is no way this can be resolved unless he broadens the scope of his argument to cover the moral question.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 96):
Under which specific legal framework was tyrannicide legal in Germany on June 20th 1944?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 94):
There is always a law which is above "laws" in a dictatorship. The basic human rights.

OK, you hi-jacked the thread but that cannot go uncommented. The whole Nazi regime was illegal starting from the dy they took over power and tailored the laws to their needs.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 98, posted (1 year 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1907 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 93):
In defense of PanHAM: he has in the past said the same stuff about politicians and voters in Berlin, so I doubt it is Eurocentrism.

be more specific please, EAST Berlin that was and the subject was the campaign about closure of THF.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (1 year 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 90):
Meanwhile, the EU and the USA have given Argentina the gift of the year. Now CFK has true and genuine ammo to stoke the fire and say "I told you so about these 21st century colonialists... That's why we fight the USA's presence in Latin America at every turn and refuse to be friendly to them, that's why we harp on and on and on about the Falklands, that's why we blocked ALCA in 2005 in Bush's face, and now we are single-hand ruining the EU-Mercosur free trade pact, that's why we resciend all our treaties with them and take their companies away and refuse to pay the debts to the Italian/German grannies... you can never trust those incorrigible gringos".

Chill a bit mate, Not every European Country took part in this joke of an episode. Can we judge the whole of South America over the action of one or two countries? I would agree there should be outrage and condemnation of those who took part in this. The French Government deserve special mockery, Their false outrage over the bugging last week and how they wont stand for it yet bowing at the first chance they get to stick it to Obama. Not only that, They cant even man up and admit they refused permission. Gutless & Cowardly. Spain has even more to lose by pissing off South American nations, Considering its Financial position I am surprised they have behaved so stupidly.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 100, posted (1 year 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 86):
Apparently the French President is personally watching over French airspace. Just when you think this story can't get any sillier...

Well if the initial decision to rescind overflying permission (a fact nobody has admitted, only hinted at) came from a random person in a ministry the president doesn't even know, then it's not the same thing as if the president had given orders to not allow the flight.

The situation we're talking about is unprecedented (as far as I know) so there weren't any protocols in place to deal with it. Someone took a decision quickly (from Austria French airspace is not far) then it got up the chain and when it reached the president he revoked the decision.

Sure it looks bad and I'm confident president Hollande will end up apologizing for the screwup, but that doesn't mean the intention to cause this was there. Morales is not a big fish but his ideas (Chavez ideas really) have significant support here, the parties on the left of the socialists are having a field day with this story.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5649 posts, RR: 20
Reply 101, posted (1 year 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1841 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 90):
Taking this action against the first 100% indigenous president

How does it make his official status any different? It probably has some meaning in South America perhaps due to your own skeletons in the closet... I don't know, but for the rest of the world he is probably no better or worse than his fellow LatAm socialist clowns like Castro or Chavez.

Quoting wingman (Reply 85):
Would you defend an asshole like this if he was from your country?

Absolutely not. I have zero sympathy for him. At the same time, has anyone calling the shots right now bothered to do some basic cost/benefit assessment of such heavy-handed approach? Is the collateral damage of pursuing him lliterally at any cost really worth it? What sort of classified data he may have stolen? Launch codes for the ICBMs? Obama's Kenyan birth certificate? Most likely none of the above. The way I see it, Obama and his administration's way of handling the case is far bigger enemy of the US right now than some rank-in-file analyst with whatever sensitive info he may have. It almost begs the question of: Who the hell Obama works for?

Quoting wingman (Reply 85):
Snowden is one of the worst traitors to his own country in decades, US or otherwise.

Hermann Simm or Rainer Rupp have been far worse.

Quoting Derico (Reply 90):
that's why we harp on and on and on about the Falklands

I am nearly certain Argentina would harp about Falklands no matter what.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 102, posted (1 year 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

From an article in today's print edition of FAZ, the pilots requested to land in VIE due to a problem with some instruments.

VIE gave them landing permission. So much for the kidnapping. The "kidnapped" Morales thanked Austria for the good treatment, whoich is the least he could have done.

Might well be that he was playing a joke and intentially provoked the situation. Many people in he world now know Evo Morales who would not have had a clue before.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6094 posts, RR: 31
Reply 103, posted (1 year 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1716 times:
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Quoting Giancavia (Reply 99):
Chill a bit mate, Not every European Country took part in this joke of an episode. Can we judge the whole of South America over the action of one or two countries?

I think, Giancavia, is not him that is outraged. His point is that that is the way Cristina is going to use this for her agenda.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 101):
. I don't know, but for the rest of the world he is probably no better or worse than his fellow LatAm socialist clowns like Castro or Chavez.

The big difference is that Morales was democratically elected and every time with huge popularity margins.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 102):
From an article in today's print edition of FAZ, the pilots requested to land in VIE due to a problem with some instruments.

VIE gave them landing permission. So much for the kidnapping. The "kidnapped" Morales thanked Austria for the good treatment, whoich is the least he could have done.

Might well be that he was playing a joke and intentially provoked the situation. Many people in he world now know Evo Morales who would not have had a clue before.

I don´t know what agenda you have here in discrediting Morales and trying to make this incident his fault. All along th thread you´ve engaged in thatm behavior.

What you are leaving out from or what FAZ is not saying is that the instrument that was not working was the fuel indicator and while they knew they had enough fuel to make it further into Europe before their Atlantic crossing, they could not because of the refusal of Italy, France, Portugal and Spain to land or overfly them.

He was detained for 13 hours in VIE, and the Spanish ambassador to Austria told him that if he wanted to leave he was going to have to let the Austrian authorities get into his plane and check it. Did you know that? Well, he refused, as well he should and there you have your stalemate.

If you still think he was playing a joke (it´s beyond me how a normal person would think that about a head of state) they´re not children you know and you go on and say he provoked the situation. How exactly? Did he tell anybody he was carrying Snowden? The only provocation I see is taking the normal route home from Europe. OR do you have any other idea?

Many people in the world now know which European countries' governments are really lapdogs of we know who.

And by the way, does FAZ also mention that by the time Morales landed in Bolivia an official extradition request for Snowden by the US goverment had been delivered to La Paz?

[Edited 2013-07-04 08:22:49]


MGGS
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 104, posted (1 year 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 103):
He was detained for 13 hours in VIE,

I could not give a damn about Morales and his other socialist buddies, we had 40 years of socialism in a part of Germany and we are still paying the bill. BTW, those who ruled Germany in the 12 years between 1933 and 45 called themselves socialist as well. At the end of the day, regardless which cpolor, they leave ruins.

The "speak" is always the same; poor socilista are always gthe victims, hence they are "detained", when they have to wait for formalities, crew rest rules, a mechanic to fix the fuel gauge.

And the capitalist devil has

Quoting AR385 (Reply 103):
lapdogs of we know who

. Sure, of course. What else. Even a black US President would smell like the devil, right?



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6094 posts, RR: 31
Reply 105, posted (1 year 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1688 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 104):
I could not give a damn about Morales and his other socialist buddies,

Ah. So, that is why you have adopted your current position. Should have said it earlier, saved us a lot of time. Anyway, whether you:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 104):
could not give a damn about Morales and his other socialist buddies,

Does not matter. He is a democratically elected head of state and he should be accorded the protocol and respect such people are. If you don´t like it, go protest in Brussels, much good that it would do.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 104):
. Sure, of course. What else. Even a black US President would smell like the devil, right?

I have no idea what you mean by that. I hope you are not accussing me of racism.



MGGS
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 106, posted (1 year 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1677 times:

This thread was a real amusement last couple of days. It is really funny to see a big number of people here talking about the "retaliation" from Bolivia and its communist/socialist friends like Cuba, Venezuela or even Argentina or Ecuador. I have the Bolivian TV available in my cable, and yesterday I laughed almost all day with the rhetoric of the people reading the news, talking about " Morales the Hero", " the revolution against the empire ", and phrases like " there will be serious consequences and retaliation"....
The truth is, guys, there is not a chance of such a retaliation. See, if you exclude Brazil, the State of California ALONE is a bigger power than ALL those countries combined, in every relevant aspect you can compare. Retaliation from Bolivia, even if they are supported by the club of the big losers listed above, is more or less like a butterfly taking retaliation against an A380. It is just ridiculous.

People, face the reality and move on. Forget about that ideal world where a tiny irrelevant country has the same rights of those who rule the economy, the military force and the strings of diplomacy, no to mention technology. The real world is a cruel place, yes, but expecting that Bolivia, or Burundi, or Tajikistan, would have the same treatment from the big powers of the world when a crisis arise, is just naive. The best we ( the small countries of the world ) can do is protect our interests with good diplomacy and AVOID the unnecessary exposure to ugly situations like this. How can we avoid the unnecessary exposure ?? Well, as a quick example, you can avoid statements like the ones Morales expressed in Moscow, all this incident would never existed if Mr. Morales shut his big mouth up re Snowden and his asylum requests.
He deserved all this, maybe next time he will think twice before saying something so stupid.

And please save all the "you are Pro USA" posts.... today was US, tomorrow could be Russia, or China, or the UK. There are a few big guys and a lot of small guys in the class room. Don't like the bullying ? Choose your words, choose your battles, or face the consequences.That is the real world.


Have a nice day !!

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

This thread has degenerated into a slanging match, miles off point

The banning of the aircraft (with a pre filed flight plan) of a Head of State is an Act of War, at the very least it gives Bolivia a Casus Belli. As long as the Head of State was on board, it doesn't matter who else was on board and why

Why is it going to the UN?

The European leaders involved (& THEY know who THEY are) are just ducking & weaving to try to get themselves out of the hole they have dug themselves

We all know Bolivia is not going to declare war on whatever EU States are involved in Bolivia's opinion

It may however chose and fully within its rights (together with whatever allies it can raise) take whatever retaliatory action they see fit & the UN can only try & smooth things out

The UN will try to calm matters, in the full knowledge that a precedent has been set & this will now recur at some point
in the future using the actions of ?France, ?Spain, ?Portugal, ?Italy, ?Austria as a precedent.

That is the serious point out of this action, not so much what might happen now (though interesting) but what will happen in the future by a precedent set by the (supposedly) old, civilised nations.

In short its indefensible


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (1 year 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 90):
Now CFK has true and genuine ammo to stoke the fire and say "I told you so about these 21st century colonialists...

That's all good and well, with one small exception: Cristina is going to royally shaft the Argentine people a lot faster and with far longer lasting effects than any 21st Century Imperialist. Let her have her say.


User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 100):
Well if the initial decision to rescind overflying permission (a fact nobody has admitted, only hinted at) came from a random person in a ministry the president doesn't even know, then it's not the same thing as if the president had given orders to not allow the flight.

The situation we're talking about is unprecedented (as far as I know) so there weren't any protocols in place to deal with it. Someone took a decision quickly (from Austria French airspace is not far) then it got up the chain and when it reached the president he revoked the decision.

Sure it looks bad and I'm confident president Hollande will end up apologizing for the screwup, but that doesn't mean the intention to cause this was there.

What is more likely: that in four countries some low level bureaucrats ad-hoc improvised a policy against a presidential flight based on a rumor or that there was a prior decision to inspect flights that may carry Snowden?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 100):
Morales is not a big fish but his ideas (Chavez ideas really) have significant support here, the parties on the left of the socialists are having a field day with this story.

If your government insults a friendly nation for no other reason than to do Washington a favor then I think it is natural to criticize them. Regardless of whether you agree with the politics of the majority of that friendly nation.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4291 posts, RR: 12
Reply 110, posted (1 year 6 days ago) and read 1554 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 101):
How does it make his official status any different? It probably has some meaning in South America perhaps due to your own skeletons in the closet... I don't know, but for the rest of the world he is probably no better or worse than his fellow LatAm socialist clowns like Castro or Chavez.

Right, so how about having Obama go through some special "wait" at a restaurant in Berlin, Rome, or Paris, how would that look? If you don't understand perception trumps reality, then you really have no clue. I think it speaks volume about how little Europe or North America cares about the indian racism that it is dismissed as you just have. I bet you would not do the same if a black South African president or Obama had been the subject of such treatment.

And you are obviously clouding your political ideology with a very serious thing like racism.

We have no skeletons in our closet that you don't have, Europe is equally responsible solely for the indian plight. That means you my friend.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 99):
Chill a bit mate, Not every European Country took part in this joke of an episode. Can we judge the whole of South America over the action of one or two countries?

But that how is to be judged. And yes Europe and North America judge the whole Latin America as one unit, so it's only fair they do the same.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 101):
I am nearly certain Argentina would harp about Falklands no matter what.

That was not my point, my point is now she has some "justification" for it. And playing to the anti-European and anti-North American feelings in Argentina which are at an all-time high.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 106):
he best we ( the small countries of the world ) can do is protect our interests with good diplomacy and AVOID

What you just said makes as much sense as topping a creme brulée with tabasco sauce.

If as you say the big blocks like the EU, NAFTA, etc will use their clout to screw you (which indeed is the case), then there is no diplomacy in the world that can help you. In other words, Chile has just wasted 40 years of its time playing nice and using "diplomacy". They will screw you and your country over in a heartbeat if it suits them.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 111, posted (1 year 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1545 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 110):
In other words, Chile has just wasted 40 years of its time playing nice and using "diplomacy".

Really ?? Is Chile the one wasting a long period of good prices of its main product ?

http://www.emol.com/noticias/economi...o-de-paises-de-ingresos-altos.html

The only two countries capable of the "economic miracle" of being ruined while their main product is at an all time high prices are Venezuela and Argentina. And a big part of the disgrace floating over this two countries is precisely the absolute lack of a defined and serious foreign affairs policy. Timmerman is a clown, CFK looks for a fight with a half of the world and Chavez and Maduro did the same every time was possible. The Result ? No body really respect or cares about those countries. Bolivia is part of the same club, crying all the time about the Pacific Ocean they lost 140 years ago.
Oh and BTW, no matter how many Lithium or Natural Gas or Oil they have, no one in its right mind will invest a penny in a country that has the bad habit of stealing the assets of the companies who invest in the country. It's like the YPF case, according to CFK and its clowns there are a lot of companies who want ot invest in YPF. Every week there is a new one...... and never materializes..... I wonder why....

Being a serious country and respecting the rules of the game is the way to go. In any case, Chile has been "blessed" with a couple of neighbours that make very clear the contrast between a serious country and a rogue state, and the investors around the world are aware of that.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4291 posts, RR: 12
Reply 112, posted (1 year 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1535 times:

You completely equivocated Gonzalo. You did not answer the question... how is Chile any better off than the rogue states against the might of the EU and the other trading blocks?

I guess the answer is it is not.

And Argentina does not need a serious foreign policy since one of the advantages of being distanced from the world economy and politics (you have many times listed the disadvantages), is that CFK can yap around with little or no consequences.

What can they do? Ban Argentina from the capital markets? Rescind our free-trade agreements with the EU or USA?  

And honestly, most Argentines are not concerned about respect or caring from the north. That sort of childish desire for acceptance is thankfully no longer part of our culture, when we wanted to be accepted by Europe, or liked by the USA. Who cares, the world goes on.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9095 posts, RR: 29
Reply 113, posted (1 year 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

The evening news showed an amusing clip of Mr. Morales' arrival back home., having "just escaped from death in Austria".

Now, this is what I meant with "illiterate" masses. People do not get a second opinion escept the one authorized by the government, For outsiders it is, like Gonzalo said, funny. For those having to live in a country, where a "democartic elected" government owns the "Reichspropagandaminsterium" it is not.

BTW , elections are not proof that the elected government is legitimate. respecting and guaranteeing the division of powers and guaranteeing the rights of minorities, just to mention 2 , are crucial. And a personality cult may be funny, but makes one shiver on second thought.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 113):
People do not get a second opinion escept the one authorized by the government,

I am sure this is just an oversight, but you forgot to include a source for this claim.


http://en.rsf.org/report-bolivia,168.html
"Here, as elsewhere, the new regulatory framework has aroused the hostility of a press that is mostly commercial and privately-owned and close to opposition groups."


User currently offlinenotdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 929 posts, RR: 1
Reply 115, posted (1 year 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1420 times:

I'm sure Evo's only thoughts throughout this whole episode were, "What would my big big daddy Hugo Chavez do in this situation? I can no longer do a shout out or dial a friend since he's no longer here." Evo is in uncharted territories as now he is off the puppet strings and having to think for himself. In his life there is no longer a marionette boss that has been the control of him as before. Next time if Evo wants to travel across the Atlantic perhaps he should plan LPB-HAV-DAM-CAI-THR-FNJ-HAV-CCS-LPB. He can make friendstops all along his route all the while visiting like minded dictators/characters..

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2048 posts, RR: 2
Reply 116, posted (1 year 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1376 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 110):
But that how is to be judged. And yes Europe and North America judge the whole Latin America as one unit, so it's only fair they do the same.

Nah they don't. Where would you get that idea from? The U.S. have always pursued a divide-and-rule strategy in Latin America, keeping some countries as buddies and some as rogue states. Europe, on the other hand, is still well aware of the specific colonial histories and wouldn't, for instance, perceive Brazil and Argentina as "one unit".

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 102):

From an article in today's print edition of FAZ, the pilots requested to land in VIE due to a problem with some instruments.

LOL, you're seriously suggesting that the whole scandal didn't actually happen, aren't you? That's called wishful thinking. France has apologized to Bolivia, making it pretty clear that the Bolivian version is by and large accurate. Face it, we've seen an embarrassing mixture of diplomatic blunders, preposterous intelligence by the U.S. services (how could they be so wrong about Snowden on board?), bowing to U.S. pressure and not even having the backbone to admit to it.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (1 year 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1343 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 113):
For those having to live in a country, where a "democartic elected" government owns the "Reichspropagandaminsterium" it is not.

Interestingly I am not seeing the press in those countries even questioning what has happened and making an issue about it. It seems that press is very comfortable with the European "version" of event, regardless if that version has changed several times in the last few days.

The issue here is not if we like or not Mr. Morales, the issue is how undiplomatic and against international law this incident was, yet somehow I tend to see many "illiterate" masses defending the situation just because the secret interests of the US and European governments are at stake.

Sad to see a double standard so openly defended by so many in Europe and the US. I may dislike Morales but the disregard for international rights and relations are a very worrying issue that sets a perfect example for leaders like Morales to do what ever they feel like it in the future with no international consequences being feared.

When the world looses respect for each other, I worry. Sad to see the Europeans following the US government in this particular way of acting.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 118, posted (1 year 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1272 times:

Quoting Bogota (Reply 117):

that sets a perfect example for leaders like Morales to do what ever they feel like it in the future with no international consequences being feared.

That ship is already in the middle of the ocean sir. Morales, Chávez, Correa and CFK, in very recent times took all kind of actions in the past against diplomatic reprensentatives, companies and institutions, and sistematically ignore the rules of the diplomacy, acting like real mobsters. YPF in Argentina, DEA in Bolivia, a bunch of companies in Venezuela, all examples of the way this people usually like to solve the diferences. This time he got a small dose of its own medicine... Finally!!



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6094 posts, RR: 31
Reply 119, posted (1 year 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1169 times:
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Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 106):
It is really funny to see a big number of people here talking about the "retaliation" from Bolivia and its communist/socialist friends like Cuba, Venezuela or even Argentina or Ecuador.

What is it that you find funny? Are you so superficial that you think what has riled up those nations is "funny"? Do you not realize the precedent this has set? How many years has international treaties, diplomacy and good will been set back? I would hate to know what are the things you do not find funny.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 106):
I have the Bolivian TV available in my cable, and yesterday I laughed almost all day with the rhetoric of the people reading the news, talking about " Morales the Hero", " the revolution against the empire ", and phrases like " there will be serious consequences and retaliation"....

You don´t see it, do you? It´s not that it was Morales or Chavez (yes, I know he is dead) or Piñera or whoemever. It´s the flagrant violation of international law, diplomacy and conventions that four gutless nations decided to undertake upon receiving orders by the US. Serfs of the lord, all of them, if I´ve ever seen one.

And before you keep laughing at the Bolivians, remember that Chile is not only Las Condes. It has huge regions as primitive and with people that would act exactly in the same way the Bolivians you are so heartlessly mocikng are acting.

I won´t insult you by saying it provoked laughter from me, but I have TV Chile and boy, you see things there that really ought to be in NatGeo. For exmplae, the hysterics when Felipe Camiroaga was killed in the what was it?...oh right, the CHILEAN AIR FORCE C-212 crash brought upon by the sheer incompetence of the pilots baffling given it had the wonderful, marvelous and 1st. world training of THE CHILEAN AIR FORCE. So quit saying you find laughter in the displays of anger by the Bolivians by what happened to their President. It´s offensive and insulting, and frankly I know you can do better.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 106):
The truth is, guys, there is not a chance of such a retaliation. See, if you exclude Brazil, the State of California ALONE is a bigger power than ALL those countries combined, in every relevant aspect you can compare. Retaliation from Bolivia, even if they are supported by the club of the big losers listed above, is more or less like a butterfly taking retaliation against an A380. It is just ridiculous.

So what? Mexico City is the Fourth Latin American economy. Yes, It´s Brazil, Mexico, Argentina (soon to be displaced by Colombia) and Mexico City. At least it´s in my country, not in another. What´s it to you the size of California?

And still, you do not get it. It does not matter wether it happened to Bolivia or Chile (after all, in the grand scheme of things Chile is as irrelevant) What heppened was a huge and terrible violation of international law and protocols and sets a precedent that should never have been set. It also places those European paragons of peace and human rights like Spain, Portugal, Italy and France in a very difficult position in many different aspects and for a huge variety of policies they may wish to establish. They can never again say their credibility is uncontestable and can never again dare try and give lessons on civiliy to others. They are lackeys of a higher power. Let´s see how this works for them when they decide to intervene in Syria or Africa. They´ve lost all credibility to do so.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 106):
a tiny irrelevant country has the same rights of those who rule the economy, the military force and the strings of diplomacy, no to mention technology. The real world is a cruel place, yes, but expecting that Bolivia, or Burundi, or Tajikistan, would have the same treatment from the big powers of the world when a crisis arise, is just naive.

Bolivia, Burundi, Tajikistan, and even Nauru have the same rights of the US, France and whichever country you want. Saying otherwise means you are dangerously sliding into a Fascist worldview. Where the most powerful has the right to take over and abuse the weaker. Is that what you are proposing? Do you realize what you are saying?


Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 106):
Well as a quick example, you can avoid statements like the ones Morales expressed in Moscow, all this incident would never existed if Mr. Morales shut his big mouth up re Snowden and his asylum requests.
He deserved all this, maybe next time he will think twice before saying something so stupid.

So you are advocating censorship now? It wouldn´t surprise, you know, living in a country ruled under a brutal dictatorship for 17 years that you think that way. But no, Gonzalo, the work does not work like Chile under Pinochet. Heads of state elected by their home majorities can travel to world events and say what they wish. And they should never, ever, be detained, or punished for saying whatever they said in whichever conference they attended. Otherwise, we are back in the 17th century. Do you see now what I mean?

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 106):
Don't like the bullying ? Choose your words, choose your battles, or face the consequences.That is the real world.

So you are saying the nations of this planet have to align themselves to a certain idea of government? to a certin block of nations? If they don´t, are you saying their heads of state deserve to be mistreated? Only someone who grew up in Chile or in Uruguay during the 70s and 80s would think that way. Why am I not surprised.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 107):
The banning of the aircraft (with a pre filed flight plan) of a Head of State is an Act of War, at the very least it gives Bolivia a Casus Belli. As long as the Head of State was on board, it doesn't matter who else was on board and why

l      

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 107):
The European leaders involved (& THEY know who THEY are) are just ducking & weaving to try to get themselves out of the hole they have dug themselves

Amazing. How they preach, DARE preach to the world the same values that they so soon jettison out the door when the shit hit the fans and their overlord gives them a phone call.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 108):
Cristina is going to royally shaft the Argentine people a lot faster and with far longer lasting effects than any 21st Century Imperialist. Let her have her say.

She´s only got two more years of screwing up the Argentines and after October of these year her power is going to be pretty diminished.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 109):
What is more likely: that in four countries some low level bureaucrats ad-hoc improvised a policy against a presidential flight based on a rumor or that there was a prior decision to inspect flights that may carry Snowden?

No. I agree with you. It was a shameful decision taken at the highest level.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 109):
If your government insults a friendly nation for no other reason than to do Washington a favor then I think it is natural to criticize them. Regardless of whether you agree with the politics of the majority of that friendly nation.

I wonder about that too. I guess thinking about the other possibilities is just too emotionally hard.

Quoting Derico (Reply 110):
What you just said makes as much sense as topping a creme brulée with tabasco sauce.

Exactly. As most of his rants of anything Latin American that is not Chile, so why do you bother?

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 111):
The only two countries capable of the "economic miracle" of being ruined while their main product is at an all time high prices are Venezuela and Argentina.

And where in this thread was it said that the issue was about those two countries? It´s about Bolivia. You idea is interesting, though. Why don´t you start a thread about it?

Quoting Derico (Reply 112):
You completely equivocated Gonzalo. You did not answer the question... how is Chile any better off than the rogue states against the might of the EU and the other trading blocks?

It is not. That is why he won´t answer. Neither Chile, nor Uruguay are. Both are as irrelevant an puny in the world stage as the countries Gonzalo so loves to mock.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 113):
Now, this is what I meant with "illiterate" masses.

You should stop using that term. It has already been pointed out to you why. It´s false, for one. And derogatory, second.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 114):
I am sure this is just an oversight, but you forgot to include a source for this claim.


http://en.rsf.org/report-bolivia,168.html
"Here, as elsewhere, the new regulatory framework has aroused the hostility of a press that is mostly commercial and privately-owned and close to opposition groups."

     

Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 115):
Next time if Evo wants to travel across the Atlantic perhaps he should plan LPB-HAV-DAM-CAI-THR-FNJ-HAV-CCS-LPB. He can make friendstops all along his route all the while visiting like minded dictators/characters..

Why? His country has not been sanctioned by the UN, the US and the EU. That is why, precisely, we are in this mess. Or can you come up with a reason why he should?

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 118):
Chávez, Correa and CFK, in very recent times took all kind of actions in the past against diplomatic reprensentatives, companies and institutions, and sistematically ignore the rules of the diplomacy, acting like real mobsters. YPF in Argentina, DEA in Bolivia, a bunch of companies in Venezuela, all examples of the way this people usually like to solve the diferences. This time he got a small dose of its own medicine... Finally!!

So what? It is within these countries´ prerrogatives to do what they did. Why don´t you mention that those companies that were re.nationalized never complied with the terms of contract they signed to get their concessions? Why don´t you say they were taking advantage of their monopolistic positions and crewing up the end consumers?



MGGS
User currently offlinesierra3tango From United Arab Emirates, joined Mar 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (1 year 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1096 times:

If I were Morales I'd do the following

1) Take it to the UN (already done)
2) Eject the US and relevant EU Ambassadors (in his opinion) having previously withdawn his own Ambassadors
3) Contact the Chinese / Korean / Russian and a few other Embassies with a view to obtaining the best price for Bolivia's Lithium in whatever method he so chooses, as a result of
4) Slapping a 100% / 200% / 300% duty on EU / US exports of the stuff & sit back awaiting a row of Head of State inbound jets (which he could refuse landing rights to!, if he so choose)


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 121, posted (1 year 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1082 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
What is it that you find funny?

Don't you get it ? The butterfly taking retaliation against an A380 wasn't clear enough ?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
Do you not realize the precedent this has set?

So let's see, when Argentina defaults 200 billions to the world, steals YPF, spits in the face of ALL the sentences of CIADI, that's not a "precedent". I guess the only valid precedents in your logic are those affecting "the good boys" of the Internacional Socialista.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
It´s the flagrant violation of international law, diplomacy and conventions that four gutless nations decided to undertake upon receiving orders by the US. Serfs of the lord, all of them, if I´ve ever seen one.

Are you living in a fairy tale ?? I got news for you, the real world is divided in blocks, and each block has its own predominant power. Some countries ( like Chile if you want ), are happy with the slap in the back from the US, the EU, the IMF, World Bank and OCDE, and others, like Venezuela, Argentina and Bolivia, are happy with the slap in the back form the Castro Brothers, Ahmadinejad, and every single clown who says " I hate the empire" around the world. The reality could be harsh, cruel, but is REAL. Peter Pan and Tinker Bell doesn't play any relevant role in this world, and if you are expecting that France, Italy, Spain and Portugal will choose the happiness of Evo over their relations with the NATO's biggest power, you are really, really living in a fairy tale. Send my Best Regards to Peter Pan and Tinker Bell ( last time I knew about them was in a book when I was 6 y.o. ).



Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
And before you keep laughing at the Bolivians, remember that Chile is not only Las Condes. It has huge regions as primitive and with people that would act exactly in the same way the Bolivians you are so heartlessly mocikng are acting.

I live 1000 miles away from Las Condes. A boring place anyway. In fact where I live, there are many quechuas and aymaras, some of them close friends of mine. The difference between them and their Bolivian "brothers", is they don't have the brain washed by all the socialist " anti empire - McDonalds go Home" stupidity that is clearly visible at the other side of the border. They are common people, working for a living, not expecting all the solutions to their problems from the government. In other words, Pragmatic, Smart people. One of them, Hugo P. has built a small empire of trucks and bulldozers in 10 years only. In the same time, most of the Bolivians only talk about the pride of having a "brother" as President, and are living in the same misery year after year....the REAL world.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
Bolivia, Burundi, Tajikistan, and even Nauru have the same rights of the US, France and whichever country you want. Saying otherwise means you are dangerously sliding into a Fascist worldview. Where the most powerful has the right to take over and abuse the weaker. Is that what you are proposing? Do you realize what you are saying?

Dude, again, I'm not proposing anything, I'm just pointing out how the REAL world is !!!!. Do you know why the ( Argentinian ) Fragata Libertad didn't make its tour this year ? Or why CFK only moves the 757 Tango 01 within the Arg borders or into a very selected group of countries (like Venezuela/Ecuador) ? Because they know, in the fairy tale world, both assets are not subject of seizure, BUT in the REAL world, there is a chance of another episode of seizure like the one in Ghana last year.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
So you are advocating censorship now?

Funny way to distort the reality. There is a difference between being censored by an external power and the capacity of not saying stupid things in the worst possible place at the worst possible moment. That is something that every President or relevant authority around the world should know....even a poorly-educated person like Morales should know that.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
It is not. That is why he won´t answer.

Chile is reducing poverty year after year, decade after decade. We have freedom. Real freedom. Countries like Cuba and Venezuela are creating poors year after year, decade after decade, under dictators with a mask of democrats, and with the people fighting in the lines outside the supermarket for a soap. If I have to choose between this two ways of living, obviously Chile is the better choice. I don't see the mystery, but I guess some people, who is ( sadly ) living in the cloud of farts created by the state owned propaganda, doesn't think that way.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
You should stop using that term. It has already been pointed out to you why. It´s false, for one. And derogatory, second.

Again you are trying to distort the reality. The fact that a BIG portion of the population in countries like Bolivia or Venezuela has a very low educational level could be sad, but is REAL. That's why they are capable of committing the same mistakes again and again and again. They are living under a failed utopia and wasting their natural resources in a very pathetic way, that's the hard proof of how bad is their educational level.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 119):
Why don´t you mention that those companies that were re.nationalized never complied with the terms of contract they signed to get their concessions?

According to whom ? And even IF that was the case, there are international laws and treaties that should be respected. You can nationalize or re-nationalize a company, yes. But there are certain steps and codes when you do that. Neither Bolivia or Argentina ever honored that international laws and treaties, they acted by force, in the case of YPF, kicking the REPSOL employees out of their offices rudely, without explanations and like real mobsters. So, tell me please, the sacred international laws of diplomacy and mutual respect were not adequate that time ? Why ? I guess you can't provide an answer...


Regards.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4291 posts, RR: 12
Reply 122, posted (1 year 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1049 times:

Gonzalo, ok, Argentina violates treaties left and right: wrong.

But, you justify the biggest players in the world violating treaties AND/OR not treating the "Tajikistans" of the world with respect, because of the "real world" reality that their power lets them get away with it? Notice there is a difference.

I never see you criticizing the North Americans or Europeans or Chinese over their abuses, which everyone knows they have done in the past. What you said was:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 106):
People, face the reality and move on. Forget about that ideal world where a tiny irrelevant country has the same rights of those who rule the economy, the military force and the strings of diplomacy, no to mention technology. The real world is a cruel place

The USA violates the territorial integrity of countries left and right with their drones... your assessment is that it is OK because they can get away with it?



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
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