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Now, France's Data Horde Is Revealed  
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20784 posts, RR: 62
Posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1992 times:

Looks like the US and UK aren't alone, France's external spy agency collects domestic French meta data, plus activity between France and other countries.

French agency spies on phone calls, email, web use, paper says

Quote:
(Reuters) - France's external intelligence agency spies on the French public's phone calls, emails and social media activity in France and abroad, the daily Le Monde said on Thursday.

It said the DGSE intercepted signals from computers and telephones in France, and between France and other countries, although not the content of phone calls, to create a map of "who is talking to whom". It said the activity was illegal.

"All of our communications are spied on," wrote Le Monde, which based its report on unnamed intelligence sources as well as remarks made publicly by intelligence officials.

"Emails, text messages, telephone records, access to Facebook and Twitter are then stored for years," it said.

Bienvenue au club!


International Homo of Mystery
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1983 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Oh so you mean the US isn't the only one doing this? Shocker. This doesn't make either program right. Governments are overstepping their boundaries. I'm all for protecting citizens, but at what cost?
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12855 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1975 times:

What does French law say about this?

In the US our Constitution's 4th Amendment says:

Quote:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Seems pretty clear to me that such wiretaps are "unreasonable searches" and retaining the data is an "unreasonable seizure". Perhaps French law is similar?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3006 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):

Seems pretty clear to me that such wiretaps are "unreasonable searches" and retaining the data is an "unreasonable seizure". Perhaps French law is similar?

The metadata is legal under section 215 of the PATRIOT Act. Even before the Act was passed, though, there was a pen-trap exception which, with simple court approval that needed not reasonable doubt, allowed the who-you-called data to be collected; similar to the metadata collected by PRISM, legal under section 216 of the PATRIOT Act.

On another level, the second you send off something like an email you're handing it to a company's servers--and they can turn the information over to the government.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6844 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1898 times:

Well it's not really the same thing. The international outrage over Prism is not that US citizens are spied on, that's not our concern. It's that WE are spied on. This French system is domestic.

I'm sure if it detects a potential danger abroad it will be directed over frontiers too (mostly by real people, not a machine), but it's not the systematic spying on allies.

By reading the article it seems it's an open secret that even officials of the secret services have talked about.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4314 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

The three so-called "most western of western democracies", at the forefront of the 21st century Stasi-state.

I think it's fair to say these three countries are no longer actual rule-of-law democracies. The government and the banks do as they please with the helpless population.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12855 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1886 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 3):
The metadata is legal under section 215 of the PATRIOT Act.

S'pose it is, till hopefully some day it gets brought before a reasonably sympathetic Supreme Court.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
Well it's not really the same thing. The international outrage over Prism is not that US citizens are spied on, that's not our concern. It's that WE are spied on. This French system is domestic.

What part don't you people understand that PRISM is not spying on US citizens. Am I missing something?


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1796 times:

"Horde" of data? Let the pillaging begin!

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20784 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1788 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Let the pillaging begin!

Finally, someone got the play on words. Well done, you!   



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5712 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 3):
The metadata is legal under section 215 of the PATRIOT Act.
Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 3):
legal under section 216 of the PATRIOT Act.

Just because a law purports something to be "legal" doesn't make it so. The PATRIOT Act is not a Constitutional amendment, and should be held to the same scrutiny as every other law with regards to the Constitution.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3006 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1724 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 7):
What part don't you people understand that PRISM is not spying on US citizens. Am I missing something?

Yes it is. PRISM spies on, well, everyone--including US Citizens. That's what a big part of the hullabaloo is about; some say that, under Fourth Amendment rights, we shouldn't be spied on like this.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

Just because a law purports something to be "legal" doesn't make it so. The PATRIOT Act is not a Constitutional amendment, and should be held to the same scrutiny as every other law with regards to the Constitution.

Of course. It has been challenged several times and has always been found to be fine--no court has ever ruled against it.

The digital privacy debate is certainly one to be had, and it can easily go both ways.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9671 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

PRISM collects data randomly. Yesterday we learned that the US scan each and every letter that is routed to and from the US and stores the senders and consignees name. Regardless if US citizens, green card holders or foreigners., Can be done easily since the high speed sorting machines collect that data anyhow.

With Patriot act US citizens and the rest of the world that deals with the US one way or the other surrender a part of their civil liberties. US citizens have to live with that, others can avoid the US oif they feel like, the crucial part is,, it is none of the US business who I call from my German phone to another German phone or anywhere else in the world except North America.

US laws do not apply outside the USA except when US citizens are involved. Period.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3814 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1629 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Perhaps French law is similar?

I believe so.

It has always been an open secret that the secret services spy on phone calls and internet communications. I believe the outrage is mostly contained due to the limited nature of it and the relative assurance that it is somewhat targeted at suspicious activities and individuals. There is an occasional outbreak of it when a media-spying scandal comes to light, especially when it is commandeered by ruling politicians...  

That said, the scale of it on this side of the pond is nowhere near the sweeping, global, unlimited data filtering leviathan the NSA is unleashing upon us.
The amount of paranoia over here is much less significant, though I'm sure many in the ministry of defense and interior would gladly ramp the eavesdropping up if they had any money for it.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14129 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Article 10 of the German constitution bans spying inside Germany without a warrant, but I´m quite sure that the BND has a similar programme running. It seems that all western governments are happily assisting each other to allow their intelligence services break their respective laws. E.g. the NSA can´t spy on American citizens, so the British do it instead (using American technology) and then tell their American counterparts what they found. This way the laws a formaly obeyed with. The Americans inturn tell the British services about their findings on British citizens.
I wouldn´t be surprised if the French and German intelligence services have similar agreements with the other NATO countries.

Jan


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12855 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 13):
That said, the scale of it on this side of the pond is nowhere near the sweeping, global, unlimited data filtering leviathan the NSA is unleashing upon us.

Interesting that you feel confident making such an assertion.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 13):
The amount of paranoia over here is much less significant, though I'm sure many in the ministry of defense and interior would gladly ramp the eavesdropping up if they had any money for it.

Indeed. A quick google says that NSA's budget is around $10b/year but that's just an estimate.

The article goes on to say:

Quote:

The NSA is one of at least 15 intelligence agencies, and combined the total U.S. intelligence budget in 2012 was $75 billion, said Steve Aftergood, director of the government secrecy program at the Federation of American Scientists, a nonpartisan think tank that analyzes national and international security issues.

Ref: http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/07/news...y/nsa-surveillance-cost/index.html



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineCPH-r From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6030 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
Article 10 of the German constitution bans spying inside Germany without a warrant, but I´m quite sure that the BND has a similar programme running.

Bingo. http://www.h-online.com/security/new...ets-for-surveillance-1909989.html

[Edited 2013-07-05 04:54:54]

User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3814 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
Interesting that you feel confident making such an assertion.

I am, simply because, as you pointed out yourself, they have nowhere near the means to do so.
I am sure a few of them would gladly do it if they could. Severe budget cuts are our friends, sometimes... 



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
The three so-called "most western of western democracies", at the forefront of the 21st century Stasi-state.

When they murder 30,000 of their own citizens, many never found, many more tortured, then you'll have bragging rights.
Until then, try a little perspective.


User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12801 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1425 times:
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Quoting Derico (Reply 5):

Yes, we'd all be much better off in some South American tin-pot dictatorship. Oh wait...



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1414 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):

Let us not forget that a certain British Prime Minister once hailed a South American gentleman as a champion of the free world.That particular gentleman was later granted immunity from prosecution by the law lords, if I am not mistaken.
More recently, it was shown that tthe UK was happy to accommodate Gaddafi by returning someone, knowing full well that he would be tortured.

If the average UK citizen is not currently in fear of being arbitrarily arrested it is because poltical conditions are more stable, not because the powers that be are morally superior. In any and every country, where agencies are able to operate in secret they will do whatever they can get away with. So it comes as no surprise that various bodies in European countries can and do spy on their citizens as a matter of routine. Sadly too many are happy to allow a free hand under the mistaken notion that somehow their freedoms are enhanced by a lack of oversight and transparency, all in the name of security.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1381 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 20):
Let us not forget that a certain British Prime Minister once hailed a South American gentleman as a champion of the free world.That particular gentleman was later granted immunity from prosecution by the law lords, if I am not mistaken.
More recently, it was shown that tthe UK was happy to accommodate Gaddafi by returning someone, knowing full well that he would be tortured.

And many in the UK were repulsed by that. Me included. As to the Law Lords, they did not reflect even the will of the government of the day.
However correct their interpretation of that aspect of the law was.

The only reason that gentleman was welcomed by some here was the patronage of a demented old bat who'd once been PM herself.
This even embarrassed many in her own party.

As for Qaddafi, in 2004 he agreed to stop his WMD programs, stop all funding of terrorism (which had affected the UK), stop his death squads hunting down opponents abroad - again including in the UK.
He did it out of fear and the effects of his countries then almost total isolation with it's crippling economic effects.

So deals were done, some rather unpalatable ones for many.
That sadly is realpolitik. That was at the time endorsed by the US and most EU nations.
Then he blew it by hugely overreacting to demos, threatening as well to resume some of his prior misdeeds.
Look what happened to him.
A bayonet up his back passage in a dirty street.


User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1117 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1353 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
I think it's fair to say these three countries are no longer actual rule-of-law democracies.

It is fair to say.

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
When they murder 30,000 of their own citizens, many never found, many more tortured, then you'll have bragging rights.
Until then, try a little perspective.

Yeah the perspective of "everything is so hunky-dory in the US/UK". War of aggression at least in Iraq ("the linchpin of all the other crimes" as per the Nuremberg tribunal). Renditions for torture. Illimited bailouts for failed and misbehaving banks by ways of money printing. Total Surveillance State without democratic debate about it.

May I suggest, you, Sir, try a little perspective? And may I suggest too that you tune down the condescension and chauvinistic defense of YOUR government? One is supposed to grow up to a level of maturity where they can see faults in their parents (10yo?) and then their rulers (15yo?). Jingoistic reflexive defense does not make for good debate.

As for French Surveillance. the overall budget of French intelligence is 600 million euros. The NSA alone is more than 10 times that.

All governments need to be tamed down with this. And the US government all the more so as they say in the leaked documents that the US has to capitalize on its "home player advantage", being the center of most internet giants or buying out the few which were not (skype for instance).

[Edited 2013-07-06 07:47:40]

User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1342 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 5):
The three so-called "most western of western democracies", at the forefront of the 21st century Stasi-state.

I think it's fair to say these three countries are no longer actual rule-of-law democracies. The government and the banks do as they please with the helpless population.

Why are you so insecure about your nationality?

Nobody chooses their nationality and has effectively no say in how it's run - Making national one-upmanship a particularly pointless sport.

[Edited 2013-07-06 07:59:25]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1299 times:

Quoting A380900 (Reply 22):
May I suggest, you, Sir, try a little perspective? And may I suggest too that you tune down the condescension and chauvinistic defense of YOUR government? One is supposed to grow up to a level of maturity where they can see faults in their parents (10yo?) and then their rulers (15yo?). Jingoistic reflexive defense does not make for good debate.

If you had read any previous post by me on UK politics you'd know I'm no fan of the current UK government, you'd also know that I was against the 2003 Iraq war.
Perspective indeed, was Iraq driven by dishonest interpretation of intel? Yes.
But as an illegal 'war of aggression' it was about as illegal as the 1999 intervention in Kosovo.

So call me a 10 year old, I'm not the one quoting from the cliched knee jerk slogans.

I'm also not in favour of torture, for a start it doesn't work so well.
For another, it's immoral. For me it's like the death penalty, it's the same as abusing or killing prisoners of war. They are captured, threat over.

The real perspective is needed in terms of how intel and the laws like guide the state institutions, trying to keep up with the massive advances in communications technology and scope of the last 15 years.
From dial up Internet to today.
The other side of this is fear.
Fear of democratically elected governments losing power if they are perceived by their people to have fallen down on the part of their job that involves protecting their country from threats like terrorism.

We live in risk averse societies, many of those who might agree with this general point also are the ones, who like it or not, might be a silent majority who don't give a crap about how much snooping is done by governments as long as they think it's keeping threats at bay.
That's a simplistic view, somewhat depressing even, but likely more popular than all these activists, from a very narrow self selecting group, are prepared to concede.

Terrorists have used the net and other modern communications to plan and execute attacks.
The intel agencies have to respond to the changes in communications, the only debate should be to what extent.

Intel agencies in all nations have always had data.
Today's communications means that now, it's like data in every other walk of life, there is exponentially more of than there would have been just a few years ago.

While it's true that all too often the terrorist threat has been likened to former super power enemies, Nazi Germany, the USSR, which is absurd.
But it's not absurd that Al Queda have been driven in their planning by two obessions. One is attacking air transport, the other is getting some kind of WMD capability.
Something that Bin Laden spent much of his time in the late 1990's obessing about.

In this respect, Putin's rather unfriendly, authoritarian government has been of help. At least all those old nuke and chem/bio sites are better protected than they were in the 1990's.
The fact that Chechen terrorists would love to stick Moscow with a WMD no doubt was a motivating factor here too.

It's less likely, though not impossible, that Islamists could get a WMD than before.
Some of this has been helped by 'snooping' by governments.
Still, the fear is still there.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4314 posts, RR: 11
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
When they murder 30,000 of their own citizens, many never found, many more tortured, then you'll have bragging rights.
Until then, try a little perspective.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 19):
Yes, we'd all be much better off in some South American tin-pot dictatorship. Oh wait...

It's my opinion. But in the entire history of England, I'm sure far far more than 30,000 have been tortured, murdered, and never found. Why stop the skeleton count at 1976? So I guess I do have bragging rights. Either we stick to the now (which I was sticking to, it was YOU bringing up a dictatorship 40 years in the past), or we can go back all the way through history... you can't have it both ways. And if we do that, no European nation comes out particularly clean, and Argentina looks like a saint in immaculate history.

That's my issue with you guys from the other side of the pond. You like taking credit for the Magna Carta but say the Slave trade was not your doing. Just saying.

Right now, the current UK is a country that George Orwell would have well used for one of his most famous works.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1698 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
It's that WE are spied on. This French system is domestic.

If any Global traffic goes through French networks, it makes no difference. It will get intercepted anyway, so yeah, turns out France isn't any different from the US.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1259 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 24):

It is true that some terrorist events have involved airlines but I don't go so far as to suggest that al Qaeda is obsessed with attacking aircraft per se. First, there is no unified al Qaeda but more a loose network of various players who may or may not share the same goals, although they my equally profess some version of Islam as an ideological underpinning.

Second, groups claimed to be linked to al Qaeda have been just as ready to target busses, trains or crowded markets. The concentration of security screening at airports is largely, but not solely, due to the ease with which it can be conducted. Strip searching passengers waiting to board a bus in Edgware Road but be a bit more difficult.

That aside, targetting aircraft was less of an obsession than a strategy. It followed from a change in direction of terrorism form targeting local despots in the Middle East, "the near enemy", to targeting those seen as the principal backers - the US. Early attacks saw boats attacking naval vessels or car bombs at US embassies. These were soon seen as ineffectual and taking "Jihad" global meant taking it into the heart of "the far enemy." For a time the easiest way of doing that was seen as being attacks on aircraft.

On a more general note, terrorism is a real threat but it is not one that justifies a free hand to agencies to operate without oversight.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1220 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 27):
It is true that some terrorist events have involved airlines but I don't go so far as to suggest that al Qaeda is obsessed with attacking aircraft per se. First, there is no unified al Qaeda but more a loose network of various players who may or may not share the same goals, although they my equally profess some version of Islam as an ideological underpinning.

True, but they keep coming back to airliners. After all, that was their biggest ever hit. Nearly 3000 dead in 2001. Then the attempts with the shoe bomber, the attempt to smuggle devices on to 7 airliners out of LHR in 2006 (something they also tried out of Manila 10 years before), then 'spongebob flamepants' in 2009.

I would have agreed that AQ is more loose than in 2001, however the amount of material seized from Bin Laden's compound seemed to show that was still a more central command and control than many had thought.
The real driver in fragmenting them has been another Western policy that is controversial, the Drone strikes.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

I had/have a theory that the reactions to the US spying news have been less aggressive than some people thought they'd be is because most of the other countries are very guilty themselves. They have to fake outrage but other than that, they let the status quo continue because they benefit as well.

Not condoning anything, but I think there is a lot more sneaky stuff going on than we think (more than the obvious stuff that everyone knows happens already)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
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