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Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial? Part 2  
User currently onlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4435 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2662 times:
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Here is Part 2 due to length of the first thread, located here: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial? (by AyostoLeon Jun 22 2013 in Non Aviation)

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKirkseattle From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

Saturday morning and we have Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua offering asylum to Edward Snowden. However, he has not travel documents to get there, yet.

The diversion of the President of Bolivia's plane really has pissed them off. Are the ATC tapes available to hear regarding his plane and the diversion to Vienna? As stated in Thread 1, the President of Bolivia really shouldn't have opened his mouth while he was in Moscow. I actually thought that wasn't the smartest move.

Regarding his flight from Hawaii to Hong Kong, I agree that he should have gone through LAX onwards to one of the above countries PRIOR to his leak. It wasn't a smart move, in my opinion.

Also, regarding the leaks, according to Le Monde newspaper in France, they do the same thing. I'm sure we will hear more countries that have their own NSA activities.

Mr. Snowden may be smart due to his skills, but he certainly lacks street smarts.

Cheers,
KirkSeattle


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13202 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2598 times:

The USA government already has issues with Venezuela's governmental leaders and if Snowden were to even try to get there for asylum, we could put the screws to them via their ownership of Citgo, a significant oil company in the USA, including in the ground rights, refineries, licenses their brand to dealers as well as the main supplier to a low-income heating oil program, with a member of The Kennedy family as it's leader. The USA government could also put pressure on any country, as done recently, to ban access to any aircraft he is on from the flyover rights.

Of course, it might be better for Snowden to go to Venezuela, as we and the CIA could get plenty of support by some of the rich and former middle-class citizens of that country that hate the leftist/socialist government to either kill or remove him to the USA by force.

At some point Snowden will do one of 3 things. Find a place of asylum - but that likely would be to someplace the CIA would get him. Kill himself, also setting off the release of more info on the spying program. Turn himself in to the USA government and allow his extradition to the USA, a likely brutal pre-trial detention, with few Constitutional rights, very limited defenses and defense counsel and a largely secret trial in a Federal Court that is among the most conservative districts in the USA and if convicted, a long lonely term in a 'supermax' jail.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1256 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

If the CIA does anything to him wherever he gets asylum, it will make the United States look even more like a joke and lose what little credibility it has left after this whole affair.
As I mentioned before, the best thing is to let it go and laugh it off, try to discredit him via the media. Don't give him more credibility with pathetic demands to sovereign nations and denying overflight.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8773 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 3):
it will make the United States look even more like a joke and lose what little credibility it has left after this whole affair.

That wouldn't stop us for a moment from killing anybody we needed to.

Let me share the US foreign policy mind. There are 3 sovereign countries in the world -- NATO (run by Washington), Russia and China. All other regions are -- for military purposes -- considered vacancies. The US military sphere of influence covers the entire globe, outside of Russia and China (and arguably North Korea).


In Russia, China or North Korea, the US must negotiate to get anything.

If Snowden is not in Russia or China, then it is a straightforward manhunt to acquire him.


User currently offlineCPH-r From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Snippets of Snowden's application for asylum has been revealed, and only adds to the impression of someone who is either paranoid or who is just playing the crowd. Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.

User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2503 times:

Quoting CPH-r (Reply 5):
Snippets of Snowden's application for asylum has been revealed, and only adds to the impression of someone who is either paranoid or who is just playing the crowd. Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.

Which is the paranoid part?


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13202 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 6):
Quoting CPH-r (Reply 5):Snippets of Snowden's application for asylum has been revealed, and only adds to the impression of someone who is either paranoid or who is just playing the crowd. Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.
Which is the paranoid part?

Remember it isn't paranoia if they really are after you....


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2486 times:

Quoting Kirkseattle (Reply 1):
Regarding his flight from Hawaii to Hong Kong, I agree that he should have gone through LAX onwards to one of the above countries PRIOR to his leak. It wasn't a smart move, in my opinion.

It wasn't, in hindsight. I think I would have made the same mistake: I would have gone to Hong Kong. My reasoning would have been that it's a free and highly livable city, with open borders and the ability to meet with anyone, quickly; and at the same time 'protected' by China as foreign policy is concerned, thus outside the influence of the United States. Wrong thinking, but somewhat understandable.

Quoting CPH-r (Reply 5):
Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.

Indeed - what a ridiculous thought, isn't it? To think one wouldn't be entitled to a fair trial as an enemy of the United States - laughable!



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently onlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2826 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2478 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 3):
If the CIA does anything to him wherever he gets asylum, it will make the United States look even more like a joke and lose what little credibility it has left after this whole affair.

The US is laughable already over this.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
That wouldn't stop us for a moment from killing anybody we needed to.

You already have one American ex-President who has had to change or cancel his travel plans to prevent being charged with murder at the International Court. Are you aiming to have another ex-President in the same position?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
The US military sphere of influence covers the entire globe, outside of Russia and China (and arguably North Korea).

Now that's laughable. The whole continent of Africa is still basically up for grabs, and the Russians and Chinese are both exercising influence on that continent. Oh, and right on your doorstep.... I wouldn't put Cuba in your sphere of influence either, nor many countries in South America either.


User currently offlineCPH-r From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6055 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 6):
Which is the paranoid part?
Quoting Rara (Reply 8):
Indeed - what a ridiculous thought, isn't it? To think one wouldn't be entitled to a fair trial as an enemy of the United States - laughable!

.. as I said, playing to the crowd

[Edited 2013-07-07 22:21:34]

User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2429 times:

Quoting CPH-r (Reply 10):
.. as I said, playing to the crowd

Which part of Snowden's statement do you disagree with and why?


http://www.salon.com/2011/09/20/padilla_8/singleton/

Quote:
In 2002, the American citizen was arrested at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport, publicly labeled by John Ashcroft as The Dirty Bomber, and then imprisoned for the next three years on U.S. soil as an “enemy combatant” without charges of any kind, and denied all contact with the outside world, including even a lawyer. During his lawless incarceration, he was kept not just in extreme solitary confinement but extreme sensory deprivation as well, and was abused and tortured to the point of severe and probably permanent mental incapacity


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
Let me share the US foreign policy mind. There are 3 sovereign countries in the world -- NATO (run by Washington), Russia and China.

Maybe this explains why Iran (and others), so desperately want to get their hands on the bomb, this sort of attitude. It is the USA that makes itself less safe, because it takes short term actions that in the minds of other countries linger for decades, and they eventually want pay back.

Very long term, the mindset you laid out will back fire terribly, and in fact it already has (2001).



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8773 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 12):
Maybe this explains why Iran (and others), so desperately want to get their hands on the bomb, this sort of attitude.

I don't see the above post as an "attitude," but instead only a product of analysis.


Quoting photopilot (Reply 9):
The whole continent of Africa is still basically up for grabs, and the Russians and Chinese are both exercising influence on that continent.


On a social level, yes. But what about security? A good example might be Libya. If China got even 2 fighter planes as far as Libya, it would be their first force projection in years. They will have such forces -- but _for the moment_ assisting Libya can only be done by NATO, or maybe Russia on a really good day.

Which isn't to say we are great people, or to make any grand philosophy statements.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5740 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

Quoting CPH-r (Reply 5):
Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.

He stole classified documents, leaked their contents, and ran to avoid capture.

What does he think is going to be "unfair" about his trial?


I applaud what he did, but I cannot applaud him. He wants to be seen as a hero and a fighter, but he is nothing but a self-obsessed coward. It seems more and more is that his reason for doing this is less about "freedom" and more about his ego.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
I applaud what he did, but I cannot applaud him. He wants to be seen as a hero and a fighter, but he is nothing but a self-obsessed coward. It seems more and more is that his reason for doing this is less about "freedom" and more about his ego.

We don't know that. At this point, all we're doing is second-guessing his motives.

It may have happened like you said. On the other hand - leaving your country, your family, your friends forever? As a 30 year old? Looking ahead to living your whole life in an obscure country, 99% of it all but forgotten by the outside world? Either he is extremely stupid, or becoming a hero wasn't his primary motive.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 15):
We don't know that. At this point, all we're doing is second-guessing his motives.


When you say "at this point" you suggest we will have at some point hard facts to judge this.

Attacking the motives of the messenger has been Propaganda 101 used against every dissident ever in human history. It is used precisely because it can never be disproved unless we develop mind-reading.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6613 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2289 times:
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Venezuela has now officially offered Asylum to Snowden and Snowden has formally petioned it. The question now is how he will get there to CCS. Any commercial flight will obviously be intercepted by US fighter planes or fighter planes from their European serfs.

Here are my scenarios:

1.) Will Putin give him safe conduct out of Russia?

2.) Will he hand him over to the US? After the shameful affair of last week with Morales it´s being said that Putin is seriously considering now that handing Snowden over to the US will be seen as taking and obeying an order.

3.) Will he they allow him to go from the airport to the Venezuelan embassy in Moscow? Putin and Venezuela are allies after all.

4.) At this point Snowden will have to travel to CCS on a Venezuelan government plane with Maduro on it. Let´s see if they are forced to land somewhere. It would be very interesting if that happens.

5.) He´ll be takling a Russian transport to CCS. Samequestion. Will the US force that plane to land somewhere?

Such a sad case of bullish actions backfiring. Now, half of Southamerica (methaphorically speaking) offered asylum to the guy, not to screw the US, but because what happened with Morales. Venezuela is not Bolivia so things are now much more complicated. One for the history books of diplomatic incompetence.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2278 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):

I doubt the US would send aircraft to intercept them... way too high profile and provocative. The grounding of the Bolivian president's plane was a blunder, but I think it was not meant to be as high profile as it became.

Surely the Russians would be able to find a route to CCS? If not west, maybe east. I still find it hard to believe that all the countries of Europe are helpless vassals of the US. Could it be in those countries' interests to have Snowden in custody? I know the US has a lot of influence, but come on. France has said no to us before and I doubt that they'd ruin their reputation intentionally just to please the US with nothing for them to gain



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6613 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2275 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I know the US has a lot of influence, but come on. France has said no to us before and I doubt that they'd ruin their reputation intentionally just to please the US with nothing for them to gain

Remember the big difference now are the negotiations for the North Atlantic Free Commerce treaty, or whatever way you wish to call it. Snowden is a hot potato for any Western country, except the lunatics from Latin America.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2273 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
Snowden is a hot potato for any Western country, except the lunatics from Latin America.

I'd argue hot potato would be harboring him... but even then, look at Assange, even though I wouldn't really call that harboring. But intercepting aircraft and grounding any plane they expect him to be on, just because the US says so? I mean I could be wrong, but I don't think it's 100% US pressure.

The whole situation is shady... some of the rhetoric you hear makes him sound like not a big deal at all but some of the actions speak to the contrary. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it smells pretty fishy. I'm sure we may come to know more of the truth. I know he had access to files only in the US, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the info he has contains some dirt on other countries. Maybe other countries do not want their own programs to be uncovered, so making an example out of Snowden will discourage others from revealing their programs? Who knows. I just don't think it's simply the US bullying



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6613 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2269 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Maybe other countries do not want their own programs to be uncovered, so making an example out of Snowden will discourage others from revealing their programs?

That´s exactly it. The US primarily but probably others with similar programs, want to make an example of him.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1256 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Heck. Send Prime Minister Medvdev on a friendly visit to somewhere in South America on one of the State IL-96's.
Sure Russian taxpayers won't mind, good P.R. (quite a few people I know are pissed that President Putin attached conditions to Snowden's asylum request), and our geeky Prime Minister can have a 14 hour conversation about tetchy stuff with the worlds most wanted geek.
It's a win-win for nearly every part involved...



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6613 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2256 times:
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Quoting tu204 (Reply 22):
Heck. Send Prime Minister Medvdev on a friendly visit to somewhere in South America on one of the State IL-96's.

That never occurred to me, but it´s actually a great idea. That´s probably how they are going to do it, if Putin decides to let him go.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 16):
When you say "at this point" you suggest we will have at some point hard facts to judge this.

Not hard facts, but I guess he'll.... write a book or something. Or we'll read interviews with him. Right now he's incommunicado somewhere in Moscow, and we don't really know a lot about him other than the Guardian interview in Hong Kong.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
I know he had access to files only in the US, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the info he has contains some dirt on other countries. Maybe other countries do not want their own programs to be uncovered, so making an example out of Snowden will discourage others from revealing their programs? Who knows. I just don't think it's simply the US bullying

I agree, and I'm pretty sure that's how the U.S. managed to convince France et.al. to stop the Bolivian government plane. France must have known that this could turn out to be a PR disaster. There must have been something in for them other than just U.S. government pressure.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
25 Post contains links thesultanofwing : A "Flight of Freedom" diversion? http://nl.flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150
26 Post contains links AeroWesty : Not necessarily, a track flown recently: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...0/history/20130608/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA http://flightaware.com/live/flight
27 mt99 : I would have to agree with Bill Maher on this one... Bill Maher ‏@billmaher 9 Jul Whatever country #Snowden chooses to live in, shouldn't they have
28 Rara : Huh? The "point" of this wasn't his relocation to a country with a better human rights record. That would have just required a plane ticket to, I don
29 thesultanofwing : CNN now reporting Snowden called for a meeting with Russian "activists" (of some kind) at the airport itself. Hope for him they will chip in for some
30 ltbewr : There is no doubt that the Obama administration is going to do what it has to, even in violation of treaties and use of the CIA and the military, to g
31 Post contains links AeroWesty : Let's see if Putin will say Da or Nyet. Snowden asks for temporary asylum in Russia
32 Flighty : I think Snowden has substantially changed the balance of power on this. He has not done a perfect job. But things are definitely afoot. Our governmen
33 11Bravo : Barring additional charges, the three felonies on the current indictment have a sentence of 10 years for each count. Under Federal sentencing guideli
34 Gatorman96 : I could be reading this wrong, but wouldn't that make a max of 30 years?
35 Gatorman96 : I find it ridiculous that these organizations are giving Snowden the time of day. Whether someone supports his decision to leak classified informatio
36 mt99 : He has a choice. Come to the US and face the music. Regardless if you think that he is a hero or not - he is coward. A coward who is willing to submi
37 11Bravo : As I said above, It is my understanding these sentences, if convicted, would be concurrent, not consecutive. It would be 10 years.
38 futurepilot16 : Spying on other countries has nothing to do with violating human rights, every country does it and has been doing it forever, the only problem is the
39 brilondon : I don't blame him. The US may think it is humane in the way they treat their inmates in jail, but as was indicated in an earlier post, the US has a v
40 Acheron : Everybody might be doing it, but nowhere near the extent the US does, except maybe Israel. I mean, the NSA making Verizon purchase ISP's in foreign c
41 Flighty : Plz! If he had gone to Canada, we would mumble we don't plan to execute him, please give him to us & he would have been back here in a flash. He
42 Rara : Over the years I've learned that the meaning of the word "coward" has changed in recent times. It used to mean "one who shows disgraceful fear or tim
43 mt99 : No. I meant "coward" in the old-fashioned sense of the word. Well - i haven't. So let me turn this around - explain to me why do you consider Snowden
44 futurepilot16 : Just protecting our national interests friend, no matter how massive it is. It's called spying for a reason. Also there's no way for you to claim tha
45 Gatorman96 : Roger that. My reading comprehension tends to suffer towards the end of the workday on Fridays. I would at least have a shed of respect for the guy i
46 11Bravo : I agree, and I think it would also be much more effective in terms of getting his message across if he were to come back to the US and take advantage
47 Rara : I'm not saying he's courageous. He may be incredibly stupid, for instance. Or deluded. Or he had personal issues which made it easy for him to run aw
48 futurepilot16 : Well then he should have found a different line of work...who knows how many lives he's put in danger because of his actions. If he really felt that
49 Rara : Yeah... how about none? This argument is getting really old. The cables released by Wikileaks two years ago could have really put informants' lives i
50 DeltaMD90 : To be fair, I agree it's a flawed argument to say people died, but I also disagree that we can just hear of "no reports of death" and be ok with that
51 Flighty : Cowards! Face our cyborg drones and satellite based laser heat weapons! You call yourself men? Stand and be vaporized. We are the "real" men - here i
52 Acheron : Then don't bitch and moan when said effort blows up in your face or end ups with half the world hating your guts. It is this kind of thing that won't
53 Airstud : What point does that prove? Are you letting us know that if foreign agencies are or were hacking into the Pentagon or Congress's comunications, you,
54 DeltaMD90 : I'm no communications and cyber security expert, but it's absurdly more complicated than that. I do not buy that statement
55 MD11Engineer : Actually, from what I´ve heard so far, did Snowden and the publishers he contacted so far make sure that no technical or operational details would ge
56 Rara : Absolutely, that was a major blunder. I don't remember how it happened exactly - I think Assange gave the passphrase to the encrypted files to David
57 DeltaMD90 : I think the real moral of the story is people need to take a trip to Ecuador before releasing a bunch of classified documents. Even though I disagree
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