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Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial? Part 2  
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4404 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2594 times:
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Here is Part 2 due to length of the first thread, located here: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial? (by AyostoLeon Jun 22 2013 in Non Aviation)


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD.
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKirkseattle From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Saturday morning and we have Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua offering asylum to Edward Snowden. However, he has not travel documents to get there, yet.

The diversion of the President of Bolivia's plane really has pissed them off. Are the ATC tapes available to hear regarding his plane and the diversion to Vienna? As stated in Thread 1, the President of Bolivia really shouldn't have opened his mouth while he was in Moscow. I actually thought that wasn't the smartest move.

Regarding his flight from Hawaii to Hong Kong, I agree that he should have gone through LAX onwards to one of the above countries PRIOR to his leak. It wasn't a smart move, in my opinion.

Also, regarding the leaks, according to Le Monde newspaper in France, they do the same thing. I'm sure we will hear more countries that have their own NSA activities.

Mr. Snowden may be smart due to his skills, but he certainly lacks street smarts.

Cheers,
KirkSeattle


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

The USA government already has issues with Venezuela's governmental leaders and if Snowden were to even try to get there for asylum, we could put the screws to them via their ownership of Citgo, a significant oil company in the USA, including in the ground rights, refineries, licenses their brand to dealers as well as the main supplier to a low-income heating oil program, with a member of The Kennedy family as it's leader. The USA government could also put pressure on any country, as done recently, to ban access to any aircraft he is on from the flyover rights.

Of course, it might be better for Snowden to go to Venezuela, as we and the CIA could get plenty of support by some of the rich and former middle-class citizens of that country that hate the leftist/socialist government to either kill or remove him to the USA by force.

At some point Snowden will do one of 3 things. Find a place of asylum - but that likely would be to someplace the CIA would get him. Kill himself, also setting off the release of more info on the spying program. Turn himself in to the USA government and allow his extradition to the USA, a likely brutal pre-trial detention, with few Constitutional rights, very limited defenses and defense counsel and a largely secret trial in a Federal Court that is among the most conservative districts in the USA and if convicted, a long lonely term in a 'supermax' jail.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1230 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2486 times:

If the CIA does anything to him wherever he gets asylum, it will make the United States look even more like a joke and lose what little credibility it has left after this whole affair.
As I mentioned before, the best thing is to let it go and laugh it off, try to discredit him via the media. Don't give him more credibility with pathetic demands to sovereign nations and denying overflight.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2480 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 3):
it will make the United States look even more like a joke and lose what little credibility it has left after this whole affair.

That wouldn't stop us for a moment from killing anybody we needed to.

Let me share the US foreign policy mind. There are 3 sovereign countries in the world -- NATO (run by Washington), Russia and China. All other regions are -- for military purposes -- considered vacancies. The US military sphere of influence covers the entire globe, outside of Russia and China (and arguably North Korea).


In Russia, China or North Korea, the US must negotiate to get anything.

If Snowden is not in Russia or China, then it is a straightforward manhunt to acquire him.


User currently offlineCPH-r From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6005 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Snippets of Snowden's application for asylum has been revealed, and only adds to the impression of someone who is either paranoid or who is just playing the crowd. Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.

User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting CPH-r (Reply 5):
Snippets of Snowden's application for asylum has been revealed, and only adds to the impression of someone who is either paranoid or who is just playing the crowd. Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.

Which is the paranoid part?


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 6):
Quoting CPH-r (Reply 5):Snippets of Snowden's application for asylum has been revealed, and only adds to the impression of someone who is either paranoid or who is just playing the crowd. Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.
Which is the paranoid part?

Remember it isn't paranoia if they really are after you....


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

Quoting Kirkseattle (Reply 1):
Regarding his flight from Hawaii to Hong Kong, I agree that he should have gone through LAX onwards to one of the above countries PRIOR to his leak. It wasn't a smart move, in my opinion.

It wasn't, in hindsight. I think I would have made the same mistake: I would have gone to Hong Kong. My reasoning would have been that it's a free and highly livable city, with open borders and the ability to meet with anyone, quickly; and at the same time 'protected' by China as foreign policy is concerned, thus outside the influence of the United States. Wrong thinking, but somewhat understandable.

Quoting CPH-r (Reply 5):
Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.

Indeed - what a ridiculous thought, isn't it? To think one wouldn't be entitled to a fair trial as an enemy of the United States - laughable!



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2748 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 3):
If the CIA does anything to him wherever he gets asylum, it will make the United States look even more like a joke and lose what little credibility it has left after this whole affair.

The US is laughable already over this.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
That wouldn't stop us for a moment from killing anybody we needed to.

You already have one American ex-President who has had to change or cancel his travel plans to prevent being charged with murder at the International Court. Are you aiming to have another ex-President in the same position?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
The US military sphere of influence covers the entire globe, outside of Russia and China (and arguably North Korea).

Now that's laughable. The whole continent of Africa is still basically up for grabs, and the Russians and Chinese are both exercising influence on that continent. Oh, and right on your doorstep.... I wouldn't put Cuba in your sphere of influence either, nor many countries in South America either.


User currently offlineCPH-r From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6005 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 6):
Which is the paranoid part?
Quoting Rara (Reply 8):
Indeed - what a ridiculous thought, isn't it? To think one wouldn't be entitled to a fair trial as an enemy of the United States - laughable!

.. as I said, playing to the crowd

[Edited 2013-07-07 22:21:34]

User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2361 times:

Quoting CPH-r (Reply 10):
.. as I said, playing to the crowd

Which part of Snowden's statement do you disagree with and why?


http://www.salon.com/2011/09/20/padilla_8/singleton/

Quote:
In 2002, the American citizen was arrested at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport, publicly labeled by John Ashcroft as The Dirty Bomber, and then imprisoned for the next three years on U.S. soil as an “enemy combatant” without charges of any kind, and denied all contact with the outside world, including even a lawyer. During his lawless incarceration, he was kept not just in extreme solitary confinement but extreme sensory deprivation as well, and was abused and tortured to the point of severe and probably permanent mental incapacity


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4307 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2318 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
Let me share the US foreign policy mind. There are 3 sovereign countries in the world -- NATO (run by Washington), Russia and China.

Maybe this explains why Iran (and others), so desperately want to get their hands on the bomb, this sort of attitude. It is the USA that makes itself less safe, because it takes short term actions that in the minds of other countries linger for decades, and they eventually want pay back.

Very long term, the mindset you laid out will back fire terribly, and in fact it already has (2001).



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 12):
Maybe this explains why Iran (and others), so desperately want to get their hands on the bomb, this sort of attitude.

I don't see the above post as an "attitude," but instead only a product of analysis.


Quoting photopilot (Reply 9):
The whole continent of Africa is still basically up for grabs, and the Russians and Chinese are both exercising influence on that continent.


On a social level, yes. But what about security? A good example might be Libya. If China got even 2 fighter planes as far as Libya, it would be their first force projection in years. They will have such forces -- but _for the moment_ assisting Libya can only be done by NATO, or maybe Russia on a really good day.

Which isn't to say we are great people, or to make any grand philosophy statements.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5653 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting CPH-r (Reply 5):
Apparently Snowden believes that if extradited to the US, he won't be treated fairly ahead of a trial, the trial itself won't be fair, and he will recieve the death penalty.

He stole classified documents, leaked their contents, and ran to avoid capture.

What does he think is going to be "unfair" about his trial?


I applaud what he did, but I cannot applaud him. He wants to be seen as a hero and a fighter, but he is nothing but a self-obsessed coward. It seems more and more is that his reason for doing this is less about "freedom" and more about his ego.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
I applaud what he did, but I cannot applaud him. He wants to be seen as a hero and a fighter, but he is nothing but a self-obsessed coward. It seems more and more is that his reason for doing this is less about "freedom" and more about his ego.

We don't know that. At this point, all we're doing is second-guessing his motives.

It may have happened like you said. On the other hand - leaving your country, your family, your friends forever? As a 30 year old? Looking ahead to living your whole life in an obscure country, 99% of it all but forgotten by the outside world? Either he is extremely stupid, or becoming a hero wasn't his primary motive.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 15):
We don't know that. At this point, all we're doing is second-guessing his motives.


When you say "at this point" you suggest we will have at some point hard facts to judge this.

Attacking the motives of the messenger has been Propaganda 101 used against every dissident ever in human history. It is used precisely because it can never be disproved unless we develop mind-reading.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6236 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2221 times:
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Venezuela has now officially offered Asylum to Snowden and Snowden has formally petioned it. The question now is how he will get there to CCS. Any commercial flight will obviously be intercepted by US fighter planes or fighter planes from their European serfs.

Here are my scenarios:

1.) Will Putin give him safe conduct out of Russia?

2.) Will he hand him over to the US? After the shameful affair of last week with Morales it´s being said that Putin is seriously considering now that handing Snowden over to the US will be seen as taking and obeying an order.

3.) Will he they allow him to go from the airport to the Venezuelan embassy in Moscow? Putin and Venezuela are allies after all.

4.) At this point Snowden will have to travel to CCS on a Venezuelan government plane with Maduro on it. Let´s see if they are forced to land somewhere. It would be very interesting if that happens.

5.) He´ll be takling a Russian transport to CCS. Samequestion. Will the US force that plane to land somewhere?

Such a sad case of bullish actions backfiring. Now, half of Southamerica (methaphorically speaking) offered asylum to the guy, not to screw the US, but because what happened with Morales. Venezuela is not Bolivia so things are now much more complicated. One for the history books of diplomatic incompetence.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):

I doubt the US would send aircraft to intercept them... way too high profile and provocative. The grounding of the Bolivian president's plane was a blunder, but I think it was not meant to be as high profile as it became.

Surely the Russians would be able to find a route to CCS? If not west, maybe east. I still find it hard to believe that all the countries of Europe are helpless vassals of the US. Could it be in those countries' interests to have Snowden in custody? I know the US has a lot of influence, but come on. France has said no to us before and I doubt that they'd ruin their reputation intentionally just to please the US with nothing for them to gain



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6236 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2207 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I know the US has a lot of influence, but come on. France has said no to us before and I doubt that they'd ruin their reputation intentionally just to please the US with nothing for them to gain

Remember the big difference now are the negotiations for the North Atlantic Free Commerce treaty, or whatever way you wish to call it. Snowden is a hot potato for any Western country, except the lunatics from Latin America.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
Snowden is a hot potato for any Western country, except the lunatics from Latin America.

I'd argue hot potato would be harboring him... but even then, look at Assange, even though I wouldn't really call that harboring. But intercepting aircraft and grounding any plane they expect him to be on, just because the US says so? I mean I could be wrong, but I don't think it's 100% US pressure.

The whole situation is shady... some of the rhetoric you hear makes him sound like not a big deal at all but some of the actions speak to the contrary. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it smells pretty fishy. I'm sure we may come to know more of the truth. I know he had access to files only in the US, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the info he has contains some dirt on other countries. Maybe other countries do not want their own programs to be uncovered, so making an example out of Snowden will discourage others from revealing their programs? Who knows. I just don't think it's simply the US bullying



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6236 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2201 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Maybe other countries do not want their own programs to be uncovered, so making an example out of Snowden will discourage others from revealing their programs?

That´s exactly it. The US primarily but probably others with similar programs, want to make an example of him.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1230 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2195 times:

Heck. Send Prime Minister Medvdev on a friendly visit to somewhere in South America on one of the State IL-96's.
Sure Russian taxpayers won't mind, good P.R. (quite a few people I know are pissed that President Putin attached conditions to Snowden's asylum request), and our geeky Prime Minister can have a 14 hour conversation about tetchy stuff with the worlds most wanted geek.
It's a win-win for nearly every part involved...



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6236 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2188 times:
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Quoting tu204 (Reply 22):
Heck. Send Prime Minister Medvdev on a friendly visit to somewhere in South America on one of the State IL-96's.

That never occurred to me, but it´s actually a great idea. That´s probably how they are going to do it, if Putin decides to let him go.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2169 times:

Quoting Wsp (Reply 16):
When you say "at this point" you suggest we will have at some point hard facts to judge this.

Not hard facts, but I guess he'll.... write a book or something. Or we'll read interviews with him. Right now he's incommunicado somewhere in Moscow, and we don't really know a lot about him other than the Guardian interview in Hong Kong.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
I know he had access to files only in the US, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the info he has contains some dirt on other countries. Maybe other countries do not want their own programs to be uncovered, so making an example out of Snowden will discourage others from revealing their programs? Who knows. I just don't think it's simply the US bullying

I agree, and I'm pretty sure that's how the U.S. managed to convince France et.al. to stop the Bolivian government plane. France must have known that this could turn out to be a PR disaster. There must have been something in for them other than just U.S. government pressure.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinethesultanofwing From El Salvador, joined Dec 2012, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

A "Flight of Freedom" diversion?


http://nl.flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150



I feel like the A318 at times: I am probably worth more parted out than as a whole.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20671 posts, RR: 62
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2102 times:

Quoting thesultanofwing (Reply 25):
A "Flight of Freedom" diversion?

Not necessarily, a track flown recently:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...0/history/20130608/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...0/history/20130620/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA

SU SVO-HAV Rerouted Avoiding US Airspace; Snowden? (by CX920 Jul 11 2013 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6597 posts, RR: 6
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2130 times:
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I would have to agree with Bill Maher on this one...


Bill Maher ‏@billmaher 9 Jul

Whatever country #Snowden chooses to live in, shouldn't they have a better police state/human rts record than us? Or,u know,what was the pt?


I guess Venezuela is a bastion of freedom...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 27):

I would have to agree with Bill Maher on this one...


Bill Maher ‏@billmaher 9 Jul

Whatever country #Snowden chooses to live in, shouldn't they have a better police state/human rts record than us? Or,u know,what was the pt?

Huh? The "point" of this wasn't his relocation to a country with a better human rights record. That would have just required a plane ticket to, I don't know, Norway or something. The point, if there was one, was exposing the questionable activities of secret services. I don't see how his future choice of residence relates to that, particularly since there isn't much choice to start with.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinethesultanofwing From El Salvador, joined Dec 2012, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1993 times:

CNN now reporting Snowden called for a meeting with Russian "activists" (of some kind) at the airport itself.
Hope for him they will chip in for some gas money!

Interesting days ahead.....



I feel like the A318 at times: I am probably worth more parted out than as a whole.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

There is no doubt that the Obama administration is going to do what it has to, even in violation of treaties and use of the CIA and the military, to get Snowden back to the USA to face a sure conviction and the rest of his life in a jail with terrorists. Snowden's exposure and confirming of the extreme degree of spying of Americans and others is a huge embarrassment and for Obama and almost all politicians, they all need to look tough to those that the media have pumped up Snowden as being a traitor and no one wants to be on the 'wrong' side of that. Our political leaders want to make a very public and severe example of Snowden to punish him for his actions, disclosing the truth of our extensive spying system, to discourage other 'whistleblowers' down the line.

It might be better to let Snowden travel to some other country for asylum, stop giving him attention and get our security policies to conform to reason not to continue to invade the human rights of the world.

[Edited 2013-07-12 04:12:44]

User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20671 posts, RR: 62
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1906 times:

Let's see if Putin will say Da or Nyet.

Snowden asks for temporary asylum in Russia

Quote:
MOSCOW — Edward Snowden, the alleged National Security Agency leaker, said Friday at a meeting with human rights groups at a Moscow airport that he is seeking temporary political asylum in Russia as a means for seeking permament status in a Latin American country.

Snowden spoke to reporters while meeting with representatives of eight human rights groups, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

According to Tatyana Lokshina of Human Rights Watch, Snowden seeks to stay in Russia as he "can't fly to Latin America yet," RT.com reports.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1883 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
Our political leaders want to make a very public and severe example of Snowden to punish him for his actions, disclosing the truth of our extensive spying system, to discourage other 'whistleblowers' down the line.

I think Snowden has substantially changed the balance of power on this. He has not done a perfect job. But things are definitely afoot. Our government employee "leaders," who advocate power for their own special interest group, are more and more clearly outside the law. They are being marginalized as their legal standing crumbles.

The end game will depend on the US Supreme Court.


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1720 posts, RR: 10
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
... to get Snowden back to the USA to face a sure conviction and the rest of his life in a jail with terrorists.

Barring additional charges, the three felonies on the current indictment have a sentence of 10 years for each count. Under Federal sentencing guidelines those would likely be concurrent, so a total of 10 years.

If he were to release additional classified material obviously that would change. At this point he is NOT looking at "the rest of his life in jail"



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1869 times:

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 33):
Barring additional charges, the three felonies on the current indictment have a sentence of 10 years for each count. Under Federal sentencing guidelines those would likely be concurrent, so a total of 10 years.

I could be reading this wrong, but wouldn't that make a max of 30 years?



Cha brro
User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Let's see if Putin will say Da or Nyet.

Snowden asks for temporary asylum in Russia

Quote:
MOSCOW — Edward Snowden, the alleged National Security Agency leaker, said Friday at a meeting with human rights groups at a Moscow airport that he is seeking temporary political asylum in Russia as a means for seeking permament status in a Latin American country.

Snowden spoke to reporters while meeting with representatives of eight human rights groups, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

According to Tatyana Lokshina of Human Rights Watch, Snowden seeks to stay in Russia as he "can't fly to Latin America yet," RT.com reports.

I find it ridiculous that these organizations are giving Snowden the time of day. Whether someone supports his decision to leak classified information or not, he willing broke federal laws and should not receive any type of assistance whatsoever. If you are man enough to break federal laws, you should be man enough to receive the punishment. What a coward...



Cha brro
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6597 posts, RR: 6
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1848 times:
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Quoting Rara (Reply 28):
don't see how his future choice of residence relates to that, particularly since there isn't much choice to start with.

He has a choice. Come to the US and face the music.

Regardless if you think that he is a hero or not - he is coward. A coward who is willing to submit to government which are worse than the one he just made a big stink against.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1720 posts, RR: 10
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1835 times:

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 34):
I could be reading this wrong, but wouldn't that make a max of 30 years?

As I said above, It is my understanding these sentences, if convicted, would be concurrent, not consecutive. It would be 10 years.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
It might be better to let Snowden travel to some other country for asylum, stop giving him attention and get our security policies to conform to reason not to continue to invade the human rights of the world.

Spying on other countries has nothing to do with violating human rights, every country does it and has been doing it forever, the only problem is these leaks keep coming from the US. Furthermore, Snowden didn't leak anything that the average knowledgeable US citizen didn't know about, unless they were just downright clueless and ignorant.

We all know the us spies on average Americans through unauthorized phone taps etc, has been that way since 9/11 and probably further back. I'm not ok with this, but i'm even more concerned about countries all over the world viewing our dirty laundry activities in their backyard. It doesn't benefit us in any way, shape or form.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 36):
Regardless if you think that he is a hero or not - he is coward. A coward who is willing to submit to government which are worse than the one he just made a big stink against.

Exactly, anyone care to view the wonderful human rights record of Venezuela in the last 10 years?



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4251 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
I applaud what he did, but I cannot applaud him. He wants to be seen as a hero and a fighter, but he is nothing but a self-obsessed coward. It seems more and more is that his reason for doing this is less about "freedom" and more about his ego.

I don't blame him. The US may think it is humane in the way they treat their inmates in jail, but as was indicated in an earlier post, the US has a very poor record when it comes to the way it treats its inmates. The will keep you in jail without a trial, and can do it definitely (see Guantanamo Bay) and they are some of the most inhumane places on earth. He would and should face the death penalty for his treasonous actions that could jeopardize the security of the US. If he were to come to Canada, he could not be extradited to the US because Canada would not extradite any person who may be put to death.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1666 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 38):
Spying on other countries has nothing to do with violating human rights, every country does it and has been doing it forever

Everybody might be doing it, but nowhere near the extent the US does, except maybe Israel. I mean, the NSA making Verizon purchase ISP's in foreign contries to gain access to their internal networks or to sabotage the Fiber cables plan between BRICS?.

Wars have been started for less than that.

One thing is for sure, this will start a push to move traffic and networks away from the american soil, and that can only be a good thing as it shifts power away from the US.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 39):
If he were to come to Canada, he could not be extradited to the US because Canada would not extradite any person who may be put to death.


Plz! If he had gone to Canada, we would mumble we don't plan to execute him, please give him to us & he would have been back here in a flash. He would have been delighted to stay in Canada -- beats Russia.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 36):
Regardless if you think that he is a hero or not - he is coward. A coward who is willing to submit to government which are worse than the one he just made a big stink against.

Over the years I've learned that the meaning of the word "coward" has changed in recent times. It used to mean "one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity", according to the dictionary. Today it means something like "one who did something which I quite disapprove of, but which also may be considered rather courageous, which feels totally wrong, so I'm gonna call him a coward just to make sure". I mean, people routinely referred to the 9/11 terrorists as "cowards". Really? Ending your life by flying a sodding plane into a skyscraper? Inhumane, insane, heinous, yes, but coward? Quite the opposite really.

So whatever you think of Edward Snowden (I certainly don't think he's a hero), if he was a coward, he'd still be living his life in Hawaii, like I'm sure many of his less-daring colleagues still are.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6597 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1755 times:
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Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
Today it means something like "one who did something which I quite disapprove of, but which also may be considered rather courageous, which feels totally wrong, so I'm gonna call him a coward just to make sure".

No. I meant "coward" in the old-fashioned sense of the word.

Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
I mean, people routinely referred to the 9/11 terrorists as "cowards".

Well - i haven't.

Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
if he was a coward, he'd still be living his life in Hawaii, like I'm sure many of his less-daring colleagues still are.

So let me turn this around - explain to me why do you consider Snowden a courageous human being - as he looks for a place to hide.

[Edited 2013-07-12 14:37:48]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 40):
Everybody might be doing it, but nowhere near the extent the US does, except maybe Israel. I mean, the NSA making Verizon purchase ISP's in foreign contries to gain access to their internal networks or to sabotage the Fiber cables plan between BRICS?.

Just protecting our national interests friend, no matter how massive it is. It's called spying for a reason. Also there's no way for you to claim that the US spies on the rest of the world more than any other country does, at this point it's baseless

Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
So whatever you think of Edward Snowden (I certainly don't think he's a hero), if he was a coward, he'd still be living his life in Hawaii, like I'm sure many of his less-daring colleagues still are.

So I guess all the other people in every other country in the world who is responsible for hiding the dirty laundry of the country are also considered cowards?



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1722 times:

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 37):
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 34):
I could be reading this wrong, but wouldn't that make a max of 30 years?

As I said above, It is my understanding these sentences, if convicted, would be concurrent, not consecutive. It would be 10 years.

Roger that. My reading comprehension tends to suffer towards the end of the workday on Fridays.

I would at least have a shed of respect for the guy if we came back to the States to face the music. Anybody can throw a grenade in a room and run away...



Cha brro
User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1720 posts, RR: 10
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1639 times:

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 45):
I would at least have a shed of respect for the guy if we came back to the States to face the music. Anybody can throw a grenade in a room and run away...

I agree, and I think it would also be much more effective in terms of getting his message across if he were to come back to the US and take advantage of his due process rights. He could testify and make other statements. The media would love it. It would be 24/7 "The Snowden Trial" live on national television. As it is now he just looks like a crook and a liar running from the law.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1594 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 43):
So let me turn this around - explain to me why do you consider Snowden a courageous human being - as he looks for a place to hide.

I'm not saying he's courageous. He may be incredibly stupid, for instance. Or deluded. Or he had personal issues which made it easy for him to run away.

Yet by all we know, he left a secure job and a sheltered life and departed into an unknown and hazardous future, possibly on the run forever, very likely never able to return to his home country. That's pretty daring. I, for one, wouldn't have had the guts to do it.

And about your suggestion that he should voluntarily pass himself over to the U.S. jurisdiction - that would just be daft, wouldn't it. We all know what would happen - he'd be made an example and locked away for decades. No-one in their right mind would do that.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 44):
So I guess all the other people in every other country in the world who is responsible for hiding the dirty laundry of the country are also considered cowards?

Depends. If they believe in what they're doing, then they're just fine, I guess. But if there's someone who is absolutely convinced that what he's doing goes against everything he believes, that he's contributing to injustice, and that he is doing his country a disservice by doing so, but he is simply too scared to do something about it, then yes, I'd consider him a coward.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):
Depends. If they believe in what they're doing, then they're just fine, I guess. But if there's someone who is absolutely convinced that what he's doing goes against everything he believes, that he's contributing to injustice, and that he is doing his country a disservice by doing so, but he is simply too scared to do something about it, then yes, I'd consider him a coward.

Well then he should have found a different line of work...who knows how many lives he's put in danger because of his actions. If he really felt that what he was doing went against his "Beliefs" he wouldn't have ran and sold half of it to Wiki-leaks and the other half to the Chinese and the Russians. He's sitting pretty right now just waiting for a place to settle with the money he got from his traitorous actions. If he truly believed in what he was doing he would have gone through the proper channels!



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1516 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 48):
Well then he should have found a different line of work...who knows how many lives he's put in danger because of his actions.

Yeah... how about none? This argument is getting really old. The cables released by Wikileaks two years ago could have really put informants' lives in danger, and we didn't get ONE confirmed report about somebody actually getting hurt from it. As to the fact that the NSA monitors every e-mail sent between Europe and the U.S.... how would someone actually die because we know that now?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 48):
He's sitting pretty right now just waiting for a place to settle with the money he got from his traitorous actions.



Yap, I'm sure he's really enjoying his life right now. Suppose I had the necessary power to offer the following deal: futurepilot16, I ask from you to depart your home country (which you love) forever. You will be an outcast henceforth. A good portion of you fellow countrymen will hate you from now on. You have to spend the rest of your life in some questionable second- or third-world country, and you'll be quickly forgotten and live in obscurity, far away from your family and friends, many of whom will denounce you. How much money would I have to offer you for you to say yes? How much money do you think Snowden has received so far?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 48):
If he truly believed in what he was doing he would have gone through the proper channels!

Elaborate..



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1488 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 49):
Yeah... how about none? This argument is getting really old. The cables released by Wikileaks two years ago could have really put informants' lives in danger, and we didn't get ONE confirmed report about somebody actually getting hurt from it.

To be fair, I agree it's a flawed argument to say people died, but I also disagree that we can just hear of "no reports of death" and be ok with that. One, it is probably pretty difficult to confirm wikileaks was the reason for a death, two, even if much of the data was leaked, a lot of the operations are still classified and I doubt the US military would release the death of undercover agents/local informers even if they were "outed." But three, and the most important IMO, the point that makes everything else irrelevant is even if nobody suffered a scratch from the release, Assange should have not released the names of people that could have gotten hurt. The damage to the US would still be done and the information would still be out even if a couple names were omitted.

The release was sloppy and reckless IMO. I'm not saying people died, but again, I don't think it matters if 0 people or 1000 people died, some of those tiny details should not have been released. That is where Assange loses a lot of support

[Edited 2013-07-13 12:55:34]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1479 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):
And about your suggestion that he should voluntarily pass himself over to the U.S. jurisdiction - that would just be daft, wouldn't it. We all know what would happen - he'd be made an example and locked away for decades. No-one in their right mind would do that.

Cowards! Face our cyborg drones and satellite based laser heat weapons! You call yourself men? Stand and be vaporized. We are the "real" men - here in our air conditioned, gaming-style DARPA control center... er, yeah. Mom, pass the chee-tos. Mom!!! Stop criticizing me. Bwaaaa

Anyway, that is our typical "Cowards" speech. If our enemies were brave, they would start an economy large enough to design space-based nuclear weapons. But they are cowards, so we kill them.

[Edited 2013-07-13 13:14:59]

User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1666 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1446 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 44):

Just protecting our national interests friend, no matter how massive it is.

Then don't bitch and moan when said effort blows up in your face or end ups with half the world hating your guts. It is this kind of thing that won't make "defending" your interests any easier, nor it will earn you any good will with anyone.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 44):
Also there's no way for you to claim that the US spies on the rest of the world more than any other country does, at this point it's baseless

Yeah, sorry buddy, but I don't see any foreign agency hacking or tapping into Pentagon or Congress comunications, meetings and the like without the US finding out.

Then there is the little issue of pretty much all comunications having to pass through a node in the US or at least belonging to a US ISP.

Hopefully the Russians have been able to get enough info out of Snowden to make the DOD and NSA's life misserable for a while.


User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2673 posts, RR: 3
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1440 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 52):
Yeah, sorry buddy, but I don't see any foreign agency hacking or tapping into Pentagon or Congress comunications, meetings and the like without the US finding out.

What point does that prove? Are you letting us know that if foreign agencies are or were hacking into the Pentagon or Congress's comunications, you, Acheron, would be explicitly notified?



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1439 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 52):
Yeah, sorry buddy, but I don't see any foreign agency hacking or tapping into Pentagon or Congress comunications, meetings and the like without the US finding out.

Then there is the little issue of pretty much all comunications having to pass through a node in the US or at least belonging to a US ISP.

I'm no communications and cyber security expert, but it's absurdly more complicated than that. I do not buy that statement



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14030 posts, RR: 62
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

Actually, from what I´ve heard so far, did Snowden and the publishers he contacted so far make sure that no technical or operational details would get published. Snowden and the Guardian newspaper explained their self-censorship that they wouldn´t want to endanger any persons and also didn´t want to deliver blueprints in how to set up the perfect surveillance to dictatorial states, which don´t have the resources like the US to develop such systems themselves.
In this aspect Snowdenappears to be very unlike Assange, who stated that anybodycooperating with the US could only blame himself if he would get hurt or killed.

Jan


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1343 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 50):
The release was sloppy and reckless IMO. I'm not saying people died, but again, I don't think it matters if 0 people or 1000 people died, some of those tiny details should not have been released. That is where Assange loses a lot of support

Absolutely, that was a major blunder. I don't remember how it happened exactly - I think Assange gave the passphrase to the encrypted files to David Leigh, and he in turn published it in his book - but it was reckless and should have never happened. It was proof that these "whistle-blowers" are just as irresponsible in handling sensitive data as governments are.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 57, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1251 times:

I think the real moral of the story is people need to take a trip to Ecuador before releasing a bunch of classified documents. Even though I disagree with both Assange and Snowden, I can accept that they are probably both pretty intelligent. But really, what were they thinking? That the masses of people would celebrate their name and every country would grant them safe passage?


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
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