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Bin Laden Knew The Gig Was Up  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12961 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Not that it's huge news, but:

Quote:

Osama bin Laden was well aware American forces had come for him the night he heard the commotion outside his Abbottabad compound in Pakistan on May 1, 2011, and the terror leader went for his gun to fight back, according to a new account of the raid given to Pakistani investigators.

"The Shaikh [Bin Laden] said American helicopters had arrived and they [his family] should leave his room immediately. They were unwilling to do so… The Shaikh reached for his weapon," says Pakistan's Abbottabad Commission report, published today by Al Jazeera.

According to Al Jazeera and the Abbottabad Commission report, bin Laden was in bed with his youngest wife, Amal, when the couple first heard what they thought was a storm shortly after midnight. Amal went to turn on the light, but bin Laden yelled "No!" and quickly realized American forces had come to get him. He yelled to his son, Khalid, and later Amal and two of bin Laden's daughters recited verses from the Koran. Khalid would later be killed by the SEALs.

Then bin Laden and his family heard people coming towards them, both from above and below, and Amal saw "an American soldier on the landing outside the bedroom aiming his weapon at the Shaikh," the Commission report says, citing Amal's version of events. Amal rushed the soldier, the soldier yelled, "No! No!" and then shot her in the leg. The next thing Amal knew, bin Laden was on the ground and bleeding from the head.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/osama-bin-lade...83924651--abc-news-topstories.html

Clearly he had time to think about it. Seems he let his daughters get started with the Koran reading whereas he was the one whose time was up.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4061 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

The Pakistanis seem very reverential to that pig, calling him Shaikh at all opportunities and all... not that it is any surprise.


Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13198 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

I have no problem with him getting executed, I just wish they shot him but let him live long enough to throw him out alive and in horrible pain out of helicopter over shark infested waters about 1000 feet up, like those that jumped to their deaths from the WTC towers top floors.

User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2815 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 1):

Is that surprising when the US Govt rains down Hellfire missiles from drones randomly and incessantly? Or do you expect Pakistani villagers to be more emotionally connected to the WTC deceased? Playing...a very truthful...devil's advocate.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 888 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

He'd have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not realize what was going on, so my reaction to this is, "Ya think?"


Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9292 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2800 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Not that it's huge news, but:

Thank you for reminding us of a very good night for the US. He died too easily for me.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 888 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Thank you for reminding us of a very good night for the US. He died too easily for me.

Unfortunately, he had to die that way, I think. I don't think they could've reasonably risked him living any longer. Just get it over with right there.



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9292 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 6):
Unfortunately, he had to die that way, I think. I don't think they could've reasonably risked him living any longer. Just get it over with right there.

I agree, the end result was all that mattered, him being dead like all those he helped kill. Of course he did it from a distance. Now we are criticized for doing the same thing with drones. That is ironic to me. We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10335 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.

I, for one, HOPE we are not truly killing indiscriminately.

And honestly, if that's what we're going to do, we may as well call ourselves terrorists.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9292 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2745 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 8):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.
I, for one, HOPE we are not truly killing indiscriminately.

And honestly, if that's what we're going to do, we may as well call ourselves terrorists.



One way or another we are at war, there are deaths in war, there is collateral damage. The business of war is always indiscriminate. The deaths of three thousand some odd innocent civilians minding their own business in no way compares to a few drone attacks in tribal areas where most of the deaths are people who are usually far from innocent. This does not make us terrorists, this makes us people who are defending their way of life and dealing with the terrorists just as they dealt with us. I call it justice.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12961 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 3):
Is that surprising when the US Govt rains down Hellfire missiles from drones randomly and incessantly? Or do you expect Pakistani villagers to be more emotionally connected to the WTC deceased? Playing...a very truthful...devil's advocate.

Truthful?

First of all you exaggerate one side of the story ("randomly and incessantly") then omit the other half of the story:

Quote:

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — At least 14 people were killed and 28 injured in an attack on a Shiite religious school in northwestern Pakistan on Friday, police officials said, while Taliban militants claimed responsibility for killing a provincial lawmaker and his son in the southern port city of Karachi.

Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/22/world/asia/shiite-school-in-pakistan-attacked.html

Kind of hard to advocate for a bunch of people who shoot school girls, no?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSIA747Megatop From Singapore, joined Apr 2012, 328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2658 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
That is ironic to me. We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.

Not everyone in Pakistan and Afghanistan is a terrorist with reference to use of the words "We adopt THEIR methods of indiscriminate killing"

Furthermore I don't see how lowering yourselves to that level makes the situation better for anyone.



That's Mr. Bovine Joni to you.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):

Yet Americans who have bombarded cities in Iraq, Serbia and those using remote controlled drones that have killed loads of innocent civilians deserve medals, right?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 9):
drone attacks in tribal areas where most of the deaths are people who are usually far from innocent. This does not make us terrorists, this makes us people who are defending their way of life and dealing with the terrorists just as they dealt with us. I call it justice.

Most of the civilians dead there are innocents. It's not like they wanted to have Taliban and United States fighting each other in their country.

You are not defending your way of life in Afghanistan. 9/11 wasn't an attack against American way of life, it was entirely politically motivated, a direct response to United States playing world police in other areas of the world.

Had United States left people in Middle East and elsewhere alone I'm sure there would be no terrorism against United States or western world in general. But apparently political and economical power were more important to your leaders than peace and democracy and this is the result.

I think George W Bush is about equally evil to Osama Bin Laden + he's responsible from deaths of many more people than Osama was. Acts of war in Iraq against civilians are just as bad as 9/11 was. Doesn't matter if they were intended against civilians or not, the end result is the same, innocent people getting killed.

I think US government should finally learn that you can't cure hate against US politics through violence. The only way is to stop playing world police and allow people in other countries to have whatever economic, social and religious views they want instead of forcing them all to adopt US views.

Just go back to something like pre war isolationism and things would be fine.

[Edited 2013-07-09 00:31:28]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 905 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

He's in the UK news today, apparently breaking the traffic laws of Pakistan.

Bin Laden Stopped For Speeding



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2168 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
I have no problem with him getting executed, I just wish they shot him but let him live long enough to throw him out alive and in horrible pain out of helicopter over shark infested waters about 1000 feet up, like those that jumped to their deaths from the WTC towers top floors.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.

Threads like this are always a nice demonstration that humans are not so different after all.   Same mindset at work, here just like in the caves of Afghanistan. In a way, it's strangely comforting.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

"We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say."
Are you sure that you are adopting their methods, rather than they are adopting ours? Blanket bombings in WW2 in places like Hamburg were deliberately adopted because it was believed that it would undermine civilain moral. A situation of total war, yes, but a situation where people who today claim a moral high ground could nevertheless turn a blind eye to the inevitable consequenece tht non-combatants would be killed.

Indeed, the very use of the term "collateral damage" is a reflection of the fact that people who are not engaged in combat in any meaningful fashion will be killed despite being innocent of any crime. Unless children who are victims can be held to be guilty of the acts of adults. But then the very term "colateral damage" is intended to mask the unapalatable fact that real, living people, whose involvement could not be shown by any reasonable measure, were killed. People get killed. Objects get damaged. When George Orwell wrote 1948 (that is not a mistake - the publishers suggested that he change the title) it was precisely this sort of language that he was referring to when he coined the term "newspeak".

But back to Bin Ladin: yes he would have known what was coming and despite the linked article's attempt to portray him as suffereing from paranoia, people were actually after him. They also got him in the end. Killing him did not provide us with an opportunity to determine whether he was suffering from paranoia not did it provise the opportunity to show that he wasn't and that he might have had some rational basis for his actions. Killing him outright certainly saved the trouble and expence of a trial. It also prevented his imprisonment becoming a source of attraction for any actions to secure his release. It also prevented any trial becoming a forum for discussing the pros and cons of either hs views or the oddly styled "war on terror".

His death will certainly have provided joy to some and for thsoe personally affected that is understandable . Revenge often tastes sweet. Yet revenge and justice are not always the same. While some people will have felt satisfaction at a person who was a risk being removed, others might have liked him to faced a trial and to have spent a time in prison to reflect on how little he accomplished. Some may have been satisfied with the thought that at least he stood trial and was held accountable without our sinking to the same level of killing simply because we can.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12961 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
Are you sure that you are adopting their methods, rather than they are adopting ours?

It really depends on where you define the starting line to figure out who went first.

The key thing in this case is OBL decided that the US stationing troops in Saudi Arabia was enough of an insult for him to justify hurling planes into buildings.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
But back to Bin Ladin: yes he would have known what was coming and despite the linked article's attempt to portray him as suffereing from paranoia, people were actually after him.

I'm sure he knew people were after him. To me it's interesting he didn't have any more of a "Plan B" other than listening to his daughters recite Koran verses whilst he reached for a gun. He knew the gig was up.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
Killing him did not provide us with an opportunity to determine whether he was suffering from paranoia not did it provise the opportunity to show that he wasn't and that he might have had some rational basis for his actions.

I'm OK with that.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
His death will certainly have provided joy to some and for thsoe personally affected that is understandable . Revenge often tastes sweet. Yet revenge and justice are not always the same.

I'm OK with that.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9292 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2173 times:

Quoting SIA747Megatop (Reply 11):
Furthermore I don't see how lowering yourselves to that level makes the situation better for anyone.

I do not believe in turning the other cheek. Sorry about that.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
Threads like this are always a nice demonstration that humans are not so different after all. Same mindset at work, here just like in the caves of Afghanistan. In a way, it's strangely comforting.

I agree, there is some comfort for us all in knowing that they who you try to kill, will kill you also. It keeps us in check to some degree. Tit for Tat.

[Edited 2013-07-10 20:07:16]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9292 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2153 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
Just go back to something like pre war isolationism and things would be fine.

You must be kidding, ask the British, the French and the world what that got them. Adolf loved that idea.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3013 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
Just go back to something like pre war isolationism and things would be fine.

Are you kidding?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinePvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2095 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
You must be kidding, ask the British, the French and the world what that got them. Adolf loved that idea.

Well if United States hadn't intervened in the WW1 there's a chance Germans would have been on the winning side. If that had happened there would have never been extreme economic problems in Germany caused by oversized war reparations, thus Nazis and Hitler would have never gained popularity and everything would have been fine.

Anyway Hitler as an example is getting quite old already, sure it was necessary to put him down but in our current modern world there's no need for a world police, especially not for one that doesn't treat all dictators equally but instead is an ally with some.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2495 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2039 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Truthful?

First of all you exaggerate one side of the story ("randomly and incessantly") then omit the other half of the story:

Quote:

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — At least 14 people were killed and 28 injured in an attack on a Shiite religious school in northwestern Pakistan on Friday, police officials said, while Taliban militants claimed responsibility for killing a provincial lawmaker and his son in the southern port city of Karachi.

Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/22/world/asia/shiite-school-in-pakistan-attacked.html

Kind of hard to advocate for a bunch of people who shoot school girls, no?

I don't advocate for them Revelation. But yes, and especially considering my studies of world events and psychology, I understand how America creates new haters and terrorists using drones. It can seem back asswards, but it is a very significant theory for those in policy to consider.

If you have someone raining hell on your neighborhood and locale, you might just grow to hate them. That's pretty obvious actually.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2029 times:

"If you have someone raining hell on your neighborhood and locale, you might just grow to hate them"

the Golden Girls, Mom used "picture this. Sicily, 1933"

Picture this: Germany 1945. US troops enter a village in what later became the Russische Besatzungszone. A young woman stands watching. A soldier throws her a bar of chocolate, something the young woman had not seen in a long time and would normally have liked to eat. She stamps it underfoot into the mud. The US soldier is dismayed and does not understand it.

Three days previously, the young woman's boy friend was killed in an air raid carried out by the Americans. It matters little to her that Germany had started the war. All that she knew is that the Americans had killed the person that she loved. Many years later that young woman was ashamed of her actions and realised that the young GI was not responsible and his action was a gesture of friendliness and joy that the war was effectively over.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3013 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting Pvjin (Reply 20):
Well if United States hadn't intervened in the WW1 there's a chance Germans would have been on the winning side.

And the German Empire would have consolidated the entirety of Europe?

Are you really advocating that?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinePvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1990 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 23):
And the German Empire would have consolidated the entirety of Europe?

Are you really advocating that?

Why would have they done that? In WW1 Germany wasn't ruled by maniac who wanted to conquer whole Europe, no. Germany didn't start the war and wasn't any more responsible of it than for example France or The UK were, all the sides were quite equally responsible for that whole stupid war.

Had Germany won in WW1 I believe the outcome wouldn't have been much different other than German economy not getting ruined and thus Nazis not rising into power. France, UK and others would have remained independent, they would have just paid some war compensations to Germany and its allies.

[Edited 2013-07-11 09:48:03]


"A rational army would run away"
25 Revelation : There's no doubt that drone strikes create hatred, but there's no doubt shooting school girls and blowing up female college students (or simply closi
26 AyostoLeon : "It's all a lot more complicated than single sentences can explain." Perhaps it is simply that we feel our values are correct and their's are not. If
27 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : And who is to say that wouldn't have ruined France or the UK's economy? Everyone had a difficult time in the 1920s-1930s, if the Allied countries wer
28 Pvjin : Yeah I remember that too from my history lessons, of course WW2 really wasn't fault of the US just because they helped in the fight against Germany d
29 rwy04lga : Let's not forget that the US was fighting a war on two fronts (basically, the only one doing so). Japan had their own ambitions in Asia and saw the US
30 Post contains links Revelation : Thanks for the thoughtful comments. It is hard indeed for me to understand a society/culture/religion that would deny education to someone just becau
31 Post contains images jetblueguy22 : Some of the conclusions you come to when it comes to America blows my mind. Everything is America's fault. What's to say the pride of winning WWI did
32 Revelation : I'm not. He chose to communicate only through couriers who were loyal to him after the US sent missiles to the location of a nearby satellite phone i
33 Braniff747SP : Had the Germans won the war, they'd have stayed with their uncontrollable canon of a Kaiser. I'm not so sure things would have been much better, but
34 rwy04lga : You do realize that blacks have, in the past, enslaved other blacks. It might be hard to believe, but slavery still exists in Africa. During the slav
35 Revelation : Right, and indeed whites have enslaved other whites. Those who've read the Bible realize that Moses and the Israelites were enslaved by the Pharaoh.
36 WSTAKL : Osama was a trophy kill for the Sates. KSM and others were the real brains behind 9/11......yet he is alive and well designing vacuum cleaners with th
37 ltbewr : I saw a good article I believe on Yahoo, that described the weird and near jail like life OBL had for years leading up to his assassination. The compo
38 L410Turbolet : Let me give you a historical perspective because you were probably still in a kindergarten when Serbs indiscriminatelly shelled Dubrovnik, Mostar and
39 Rara : Most Africans wouldn't claim that the Enlightenment and universal human rights have originated on the African continent.
40 Pvjin : Yeah yeah blame the Serbs for everything, so typical. I don't believe in the story of evil Serbs oppressing their peaceful innocent neighbours, there
41 rwy04lga : It has to be spelled out for you??? OUR CULTURE isn't the only one that enslaved blacks. BLACK CULTURE ALSO enslaved blacks!! Almost every culture th
42 Revelation : Clear, but wrong-headed, if one is trying to excuse our behavior because other cultures did similar things. That's the old "But mommy, Jimmy's doing
43 rwy04lga : You singled out 'our culture', differentiating 'our culture' from other cultures. I merely pointed out that most cultures also enslaved others. So, it
44 jetblueguy22 : The thread has gone off topic and will be archived to future posts. Regards, Pat
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