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Bin Laden Knew The Gig Was Up  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12287 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2728 times:

Not that it's huge news, but:

Quote:

Osama bin Laden was well aware American forces had come for him the night he heard the commotion outside his Abbottabad compound in Pakistan on May 1, 2011, and the terror leader went for his gun to fight back, according to a new account of the raid given to Pakistani investigators.

"The Shaikh [Bin Laden] said American helicopters had arrived and they [his family] should leave his room immediately. They were unwilling to do so… The Shaikh reached for his weapon," says Pakistan's Abbottabad Commission report, published today by Al Jazeera.

According to Al Jazeera and the Abbottabad Commission report, bin Laden was in bed with his youngest wife, Amal, when the couple first heard what they thought was a storm shortly after midnight. Amal went to turn on the light, but bin Laden yelled "No!" and quickly realized American forces had come to get him. He yelled to his son, Khalid, and later Amal and two of bin Laden's daughters recited verses from the Koran. Khalid would later be killed by the SEALs.

Then bin Laden and his family heard people coming towards them, both from above and below, and Amal saw "an American soldier on the landing outside the bedroom aiming his weapon at the Shaikh," the Commission report says, citing Amal's version of events. Amal rushed the soldier, the soldier yelled, "No! No!" and then shot her in the leg. The next thing Amal knew, bin Laden was on the ground and bleeding from the head.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/osama-bin-lade...83924651--abc-news-topstories.html

Clearly he had time to think about it. Seems he let his daughters get started with the Koran reading whereas he was the one whose time was up.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3911 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

The Pakistanis seem very reverential to that pig, calling him Shaikh at all opportunities and all... not that it is any surprise.


Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13012 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

I have no problem with him getting executed, I just wish they shot him but let him live long enough to throw him out alive and in horrible pain out of helicopter over shark infested waters about 1000 feet up, like those that jumped to their deaths from the WTC towers top floors.

User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2324 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 1):

Is that surprising when the US Govt rains down Hellfire missiles from drones randomly and incessantly? Or do you expect Pakistani villagers to be more emotionally connected to the WTC deceased? Playing...a very truthful...devil's advocate.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2688 times:

He'd have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not realize what was going on, so my reaction to this is, "Ya think?"


Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2675 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Not that it's huge news, but:

Thank you for reminding us of a very good night for the US. He died too easily for me.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Thank you for reminding us of a very good night for the US. He died too easily for me.

Unfortunately, he had to die that way, I think. I don't think they could've reasonably risked him living any longer. Just get it over with right there.



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2660 times:

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 6):
Unfortunately, he had to die that way, I think. I don't think they could've reasonably risked him living any longer. Just get it over with right there.

I agree, the end result was all that mattered, him being dead like all those he helped kill. Of course he did it from a distance. Now we are criticized for doing the same thing with drones. That is ironic to me. We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9710 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2632 times:
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Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.

I, for one, HOPE we are not truly killing indiscriminately.

And honestly, if that's what we're going to do, we may as well call ourselves terrorists.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2620 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 8):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.
I, for one, HOPE we are not truly killing indiscriminately.

And honestly, if that's what we're going to do, we may as well call ourselves terrorists.



One way or another we are at war, there are deaths in war, there is collateral damage. The business of war is always indiscriminate. The deaths of three thousand some odd innocent civilians minding their own business in no way compares to a few drone attacks in tribal areas where most of the deaths are people who are usually far from innocent. This does not make us terrorists, this makes us people who are defending their way of life and dealing with the terrorists just as they dealt with us. I call it justice.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12287 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2618 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 3):
Is that surprising when the US Govt rains down Hellfire missiles from drones randomly and incessantly? Or do you expect Pakistani villagers to be more emotionally connected to the WTC deceased? Playing...a very truthful...devil's advocate.

Truthful?

First of all you exaggerate one side of the story ("randomly and incessantly") then omit the other half of the story:

Quote:

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — At least 14 people were killed and 28 injured in an attack on a Shiite religious school in northwestern Pakistan on Friday, police officials said, while Taliban militants claimed responsibility for killing a provincial lawmaker and his son in the southern port city of Karachi.

Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/22/world/asia/shiite-school-in-pakistan-attacked.html

Kind of hard to advocate for a bunch of people who shoot school girls, no?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineSIA747Megatop From Singapore, joined Apr 2012, 272 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
That is ironic to me. We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.

Not everyone in Pakistan and Afghanistan is a terrorist with reference to use of the words "We adopt THEIR methods of indiscriminate killing"

Furthermore I don't see how lowering yourselves to that level makes the situation better for anyone.



Would you like fries with that? I didn't think so.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1163 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):

Yet Americans who have bombarded cities in Iraq, Serbia and those using remote controlled drones that have killed loads of innocent civilians deserve medals, right?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 9):
drone attacks in tribal areas where most of the deaths are people who are usually far from innocent. This does not make us terrorists, this makes us people who are defending their way of life and dealing with the terrorists just as they dealt with us. I call it justice.

Most of the civilians dead there are innocents. It's not like they wanted to have Taliban and United States fighting each other in their country.

You are not defending your way of life in Afghanistan. 9/11 wasn't an attack against American way of life, it was entirely politically motivated, a direct response to United States playing world police in other areas of the world.

Had United States left people in Middle East and elsewhere alone I'm sure there would be no terrorism against United States or western world in general. But apparently political and economical power were more important to your leaders than peace and democracy and this is the result.

I think George W Bush is about equally evil to Osama Bin Laden + he's responsible from deaths of many more people than Osama was. Acts of war in Iraq against civilians are just as bad as 9/11 was. Doesn't matter if they were intended against civilians or not, the end result is the same, innocent people getting killed.

I think US government should finally learn that you can't cure hate against US politics through violence. The only way is to stop playing world police and allow people in other countries to have whatever economic, social and religious views they want instead of forcing them all to adopt US views.

Just go back to something like pre war isolationism and things would be fine.

[Edited 2013-07-09 00:31:28]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 869 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2427 times:

He's in the UK news today, apparently breaking the traffic laws of Pakistan.

Bin Laden Stopped For Speeding



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2048 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
I have no problem with him getting executed, I just wish they shot him but let him live long enough to throw him out alive and in horrible pain out of helicopter over shark infested waters about 1000 feet up, like those that jumped to their deaths from the WTC towers top floors.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say.

Threads like this are always a nice demonstration that humans are not so different after all.   Same mindset at work, here just like in the caves of Afghanistan. In a way, it's strangely comforting.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

"We adopt their methods of indiscriminate killing, and they scream about it. Too damn bad I say."
Are you sure that you are adopting their methods, rather than they are adopting ours? Blanket bombings in WW2 in places like Hamburg were deliberately adopted because it was believed that it would undermine civilain moral. A situation of total war, yes, but a situation where people who today claim a moral high ground could nevertheless turn a blind eye to the inevitable consequenece tht non-combatants would be killed.

Indeed, the very use of the term "collateral damage" is a reflection of the fact that people who are not engaged in combat in any meaningful fashion will be killed despite being innocent of any crime. Unless children who are victims can be held to be guilty of the acts of adults. But then the very term "colateral damage" is intended to mask the unapalatable fact that real, living people, whose involvement could not be shown by any reasonable measure, were killed. People get killed. Objects get damaged. When George Orwell wrote 1948 (that is not a mistake - the publishers suggested that he change the title) it was precisely this sort of language that he was referring to when he coined the term "newspeak".

But back to Bin Ladin: yes he would have known what was coming and despite the linked article's attempt to portray him as suffereing from paranoia, people were actually after him. They also got him in the end. Killing him did not provide us with an opportunity to determine whether he was suffering from paranoia not did it provise the opportunity to show that he wasn't and that he might have had some rational basis for his actions. Killing him outright certainly saved the trouble and expence of a trial. It also prevented his imprisonment becoming a source of attraction for any actions to secure his release. It also prevented any trial becoming a forum for discussing the pros and cons of either hs views or the oddly styled "war on terror".

His death will certainly have provided joy to some and for thsoe personally affected that is understandable . Revenge often tastes sweet. Yet revenge and justice are not always the same. While some people will have felt satisfaction at a person who was a risk being removed, others might have liked him to faced a trial and to have spent a time in prison to reflect on how little he accomplished. Some may have been satisfied with the thought that at least he stood trial and was held accountable without our sinking to the same level of killing simply because we can.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12287 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
Are you sure that you are adopting their methods, rather than they are adopting ours?

It really depends on where you define the starting line to figure out who went first.

The key thing in this case is OBL decided that the US stationing troops in Saudi Arabia was enough of an insult for him to justify hurling planes into buildings.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
But back to Bin Ladin: yes he would have known what was coming and despite the linked article's attempt to portray him as suffereing from paranoia, people were actually after him.

I'm sure he knew people were after him. To me it's interesting he didn't have any more of a "Plan B" other than listening to his daughters recite Koran verses whilst he reached for a gun. He knew the gig was up.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
Killing him did not provide us with an opportunity to determine whether he was suffering from paranoia not did it provise the opportunity to show that he wasn't and that he might have had some rational basis for his actions.

I'm OK with that.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
His death will certainly have provided joy to some and for thsoe personally affected that is understandable . Revenge often tastes sweet. Yet revenge and justice are not always the same.

I'm OK with that.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2048 times:

Quoting SIA747Megatop (Reply 11):
Furthermore I don't see how lowering yourselves to that level makes the situation better for anyone.

I do not believe in turning the other cheek. Sorry about that.

Quoting Rara (Reply 14):
Threads like this are always a nice demonstration that humans are not so different after all. Same mindset at work, here just like in the caves of Afghanistan. In a way, it's strangely comforting.

I agree, there is some comfort for us all in knowing that they who you try to kill, will kill you also. It keeps us in check to some degree. Tit for Tat.

[Edited 2013-07-10 20:07:16]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 days ago) and read 2028 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
Just go back to something like pre war isolationism and things would be fine.

You must be kidding, ask the British, the French and the world what that got them. Adolf loved that idea.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2958 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 days ago) and read 2013 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
Just go back to something like pre war isolationism and things would be fine.

Are you kidding?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinePvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1163 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1970 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
You must be kidding, ask the British, the French and the world what that got them. Adolf loved that idea.

Well if United States hadn't intervened in the WW1 there's a chance Germans would have been on the winning side. If that had happened there would have never been extreme economic problems in Germany caused by oversized war reparations, thus Nazis and Hitler would have never gained popularity and everything would have been fine.

Anyway Hitler as an example is getting quite old already, sure it was necessary to put him down but in our current modern world there's no need for a world police, especially not for one that doesn't treat all dictators equally but instead is an ally with some.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2324 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1914 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Truthful?

First of all you exaggerate one side of the story ("randomly and incessantly") then omit the other half of the story:

Quote:

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — At least 14 people were killed and 28 injured in an attack on a Shiite religious school in northwestern Pakistan on Friday, police officials said, while Taliban militants claimed responsibility for killing a provincial lawmaker and his son in the southern port city of Karachi.

Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/22/world/asia/shiite-school-in-pakistan-attacked.html

Kind of hard to advocate for a bunch of people who shoot school girls, no?

I don't advocate for them Revelation. But yes, and especially considering my studies of world events and psychology, I understand how America creates new haters and terrorists using drones. It can seem back asswards, but it is a very significant theory for those in policy to consider.

If you have someone raining hell on your neighborhood and locale, you might just grow to hate them. That's pretty obvious actually.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1904 times:

"If you have someone raining hell on your neighborhood and locale, you might just grow to hate them"

the Golden Girls, Mom used "picture this. Sicily, 1933"

Picture this: Germany 1945. US troops enter a village in what later became the Russische Besatzungszone. A young woman stands watching. A soldier throws her a bar of chocolate, something the young woman had not seen in a long time and would normally have liked to eat. She stamps it underfoot into the mud. The US soldier is dismayed and does not understand it.

Three days previously, the young woman's boy friend was killed in an air raid carried out by the Americans. It matters little to her that Germany had started the war. All that she knew is that the Americans had killed the person that she loved. Many years later that young woman was ashamed of her actions and realised that the young GI was not responsible and his action was a gesture of friendliness and joy that the war was effectively over.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2958 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1893 times:

Quoting Pvjin (Reply 20):
Well if United States hadn't intervened in the WW1 there's a chance Germans would have been on the winning side.

And the German Empire would have consolidated the entirety of Europe?

Are you really advocating that?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinePvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1163 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 23):
And the German Empire would have consolidated the entirety of Europe?

Are you really advocating that?

Why would have they done that? In WW1 Germany wasn't ruled by maniac who wanted to conquer whole Europe, no. Germany didn't start the war and wasn't any more responsible of it than for example France or The UK were, all the sides were quite equally responsible for that whole stupid war.

Had Germany won in WW1 I believe the outcome wouldn't have been much different other than German economy not getting ruined and thus Nazis not rising into power. France, UK and others would have remained independent, they would have just paid some war compensations to Germany and its allies.

[Edited 2013-07-11 09:48:03]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12287 posts, RR: 25
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 21):
If you have someone raining hell on your neighborhood and locale, you might just grow to hate them.

There's no doubt that drone strikes create hatred, but there's no doubt shooting school girls and blowing up female college students (or simply closing schools for females) does as well.

There's no doubt that drone strikes create hatred, but they also have had a serious impact on Al-Quida and its offshoots.

It's all a lot more complicated than single sentences can explain.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

"It's all a lot more complicated than single sentences can explain."
Perhaps it is simply that we feel our values are correct and their's are not.
If we were at least consistent, it would not be so difficult. Sadly, history tends to suggest that our values are sometimes based more on expedience than on principles.
We talk of freedom of choice whole denying it to others.We talk of free elections while signalling we will not accept the results if they don't match our expectations or interests.
It might be perceived that there is a lot of talk but little attachment to what is said. Undestandibly this might create problems in some circles. In the civilised world we know that whatever politicians might say is not what they mean. Everything needs to be taken in context. That might not be so readily acceptable elsewhere if it can potentially be seen to make a fool of someone else.
All of which makes concerns about killing children at schools a bit suspect. It wasn't all that long ago that the west was happy to support the Taliban when it came to undermining Russia. School children, even girls, were of no concern then. In the world of real politik I suspect that the game players care just as much now as they did then.

[Edited 2013-07-11 10:42:38]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1883 times:

Quoting Pvjin (Reply 24):
they would have just paid some war compensations to Germany and its allies.

And who is to say that wouldn't have ruined France or the UK's economy? Everyone had a difficult time in the 1920s-1930s, if the Allied countries were treated as unfairly as Germany did (which could have definitely happened) you might have seen a French or British Hitler for all we know. And to blame the US for WWII? Come on, I know you are critical of much that we do, but not everything is our fault  

Maybe they don't teach it in Finland, but look what President Woodrow Wilson was advocating after WWI. More specifically, look at how he wanted to treat Germany. If we had our way, we may have prevented WWII



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1163 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1876 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
Maybe they don't teach it in Finland, but look what President Woodrow Wilson was advocating after WWI. More specifically, look at how he wanted to treat Germany. If we had our way, we may have prevented WWII

Yeah I remember that too from my history lessons, of course WW2 really wasn't fault of the US just because they helped in the fight against Germany during WW1 but rather fault of those European leaders who ruined German economy with huge sanctions, allowing Nazis to rise into power. Just pointing out that Hitler as an example for need of US intervention in other countries isn't that good one.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

Let's not forget that the US was fighting a war on two fronts (basically, the only one doing so). Japan had their own ambitions in Asia and saw the US as an obstacle to those plans. America was attacked because they were the only country able to defend and fight back against the expansionist plans of Japan. Only the US could free the peoples of the countries overrun by the Japanese. Were the US to cave after Pearl Harbor, imagine how different would Asia look today! It was the US and, to a lesser extent, the UK and Australia that pushed the militarists back to Japan. Thousands of Americans died freeing peoples of other lands. Few countries have returned the favor to the US. The notable exception being France...merci! It's almost laughable that when a country is attacked or when a disaster hits them...who do they call? Of course the US! And do they appreciate it? NO!! Look how Libya repaid our efforts....disgusting!

Another thread asked what would you do if you were a dictator....I would stop ALL foreign aid...and stop ALL immigration. Would that be feasible? Probably not...but who cares..I'm the dictator!



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12287 posts, RR: 25
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 26):
Perhaps it is simply that we feel our values are correct and their's are not.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

It is hard indeed for me to understand a society/culture/religion that would deny education to someone just because they are female, just as it was hard to understand why our culture enslaved black people.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 26):
It wasn't all that long ago that the west was happy to support the Taliban when it came to undermining Russia. School children, even girls, were of no concern then.

Well, in certain societies the girls would not be in the schools to begin with... Again, it's not that simple...

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 29):
Another thread asked what would you do if you were a dictator....I would stop ALL foreign aid...and stop ALL immigration. Would that be feasible? Probably not...but who cares..I'm the dictator!

So you'd deny the US of the 1940s the presence of Einstein, Slizard, Fermi, Bethe, Wigner, Gamow, Bloch, Weisskopf, Segre, Kistiakowsky, Von Neumann, Teller... ???

Of course chances are pretty good your sad *** wouldn't be in the US either if ALL immigration was blocked.

Ref: http://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartan...ry-immigrants-and-the-atomic-bomb/



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2741 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1819 times:
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Quoting Pvjin (Reply 20):
Well if United States hadn't intervened in the WW1 there's a chance Germans would have been on the winning side. If that had happened there would have never been extreme economic problems in Germany caused by oversized war reparations, thus Nazis and Hitler would have never gained popularity and everything would have been fine.

Anyway Hitler as an example is getting quite old already, sure it was necessary to put him down but in our current modern world there's no need for a world police, especially not for one that doesn't treat all dictators equally but instead is an ally with some.

Some of the conclusions you come to when it comes to America blows my mind. Everything is America's fault. What's to say the pride of winning WWI didn't balloon into a WWII? There is no way you could know that the Nazi's didn't come to power. Plans change.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
And who is to say that wouldn't have ruined France or the UK's economy?

  

I don't think it's a surprise that Bin Laden knew the end was near. There is no way you can avoid capture/death after doing what he did for much longer than he did. It amazes me to this day that he was able to evade capture for so many years. Maybe he had strong support from the Pakistani government, I don't know. He knew the US was going to get him anyway they could. I know he didn't fight knowing he would survive. I think everybody knows they weren't putting him on that chopper without being zipped up in a body bag. I wish more about the mission was known. It would for sure make for an interesting read.
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12287 posts, RR: 25
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1774 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 31):
It amazes me to this day that he was able to evade capture for so many years.

I'm not.

He chose to communicate only through couriers who were loyal to him after the US sent missiles to the location of a nearby satellite phone in 1998.

Once that happens, he's just one of seven billion people crawling the face of the Earth.

Some of us who lived through Vietnam remember the irony of "bombing them to the Stone Age", given that "they" were pretty much still living in the Stone Age.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 31):
Maybe he had strong support from the Pakistani government

If he had "strong support" there would have been a few well camouflaged AA batteries armed 24/7 nearby.

It is/was a military town so it certainly would not have been out of place.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2958 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1774 times:

Quoting Pvjin (Reply 24):
In WW1 Germany wasn't ruled by maniac who wanted to conquer whole Europe, no. Germany didn't start the war and wasn't any more responsible of it than for example France or The UK were, all the sides were quite equally responsible for that whole stupid war.

Had the Germans won the war, they'd have stayed with their uncontrollable canon of a Kaiser.

I'm not so sure things would have been much better, but WWII would have likely been avoided, true, but Europe would be far worse off.

I'm as critical of the United States as the next guy, but some of your conclusions are really quite absurd.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
just as it was hard to understand why our culture enslaved black people.

You do realize that blacks have, in the past, enslaved other blacks. It might be hard to believe, but slavery still exists in Africa. During the slave trade, conquering tribes sold other blacks (mostly men) to whites in order to make taking over a territory that much easier. That information is mostly ignored by the 'enlightened masses' who only want to dwell on one side of the story.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12287 posts, RR: 25
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1756 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 34):
You do realize that blacks have, in the past, enslaved other blacks.

Right, and indeed whites have enslaved other whites. Those who've read the Bible realize that Moses and the Israelites were enslaved by the Pharaoh.

Your point is?

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 34):
That information is mostly ignored by the 'enlightened masses' who only want to dwell on one side of the story.

It doesn't take much enlightenment to realize slavery is wrong, regardless of how you obtain the slaves.

Still not sure what your point is...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineWSTAKL From New Zealand, joined Jun 2011, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Osama was a trophy kill for the Sates. KSM and others were the real brains behind 9/11......yet he is alive and well designing vacuum cleaners with the blessing of the CIA.

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13012 posts, RR: 12
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

I saw a good article I believe on Yahoo, that described the weird and near jail like life OBL had for years leading up to his assassination. The compound he lived in and the people he lived with was pretty much like perverse a cult compound, the children limited to what they could see on TV, if at all, homeschooled and other weird behaviors. OBL's key bodyguard had a wife he was married to when she was 14 years old and eventually realized that Uncle Osama was a leading power as to the 9/11 attacks and her husband help direct it. There is no doubt that parts of the Pakistani government covered for OBL, they knew he was there and should have gone after him but for political reasons they couldn't. I have no problem with his assassination, it is too bad it couldn't have happened sooner, but he ended up for years leading a lonely and sad life.

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5651 posts, RR: 20
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
Yet Americans who have bombarded cities in Iraq, Serbia

Let me give you a historical perspective because you were probably still in a kindergarten when Serbs indiscriminatelly shelled Dubrovnik, Mostar and other cities and sieged Sarajevo for 4 years.
The only problem with slap on Milosevic's wrist was that came in 1999 was that it came 8 years too late. 8 years of pussified Europe incapable to project any serious military force themsleves, at best collectivelly standing on the sidelines in those pathetic blue UN helmets watching Serbs launch one civil war after another against their former Yugoslav neighbors, with Russia and China and sometimes France providing cover in then UNSC, and everyone complaining "how come this is happening in the middle of Europe again?" .

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
9/11 wasn't an attack against American way of life

It was an attack against euroamerican, judeochristian civilization as such. Civilization which all those Noam Chomskys, Oliver Stones and George Galloways of this world, together with poorly educated leftist teenagers who parrot their rants, hate so much.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 15):
They also got him in the end. Killing him did not provide us with an opportunity to determine whether he was suffering from paranoia not did it provise the opportunity to show that he wasn't and that he might have had some rational basis for his actions.

Oh, I am sure there would be plenty trying to rationalize his actions. See above.

Quoting Pvjin (Reply 20):
Well if United States hadn't intervened in the WW1 there's a chance Germans would have been on the winning side. If that had happened there would have never been extreme economic problems in Germany caused by oversized war reparations

I love your baseless rants. Are they result of just poor education or is there more to the story? The UK and especially France still had the option not to push for crippling war reparations so hard at Versailles. That's where you should point your fingers.

Quoting Pvjin (Reply 24):
In WW1 Germany wasn't ruled by maniac who wanted to conquer whole Europe, no.

Just as the horrors of communism were not fault of solely Stalin, nazism was no one-man show either.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2048 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 34):
You do realize that blacks have, in the past, enslaved other blacks. It might be hard to believe, but slavery still exists in Africa. During the slave trade, conquering tribes sold other blacks (mostly men) to whites in order to make taking over a territory that much easier. That information is mostly ignored by the 'enlightened masses' who only want to dwell on one side of the story.

Most Africans wouldn't claim that the Enlightenment and universal human rights have originated on the African continent.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinePvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1163 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
Let me give you a historical perspective because you were probably still in a kindergarten when Serbs indiscriminatelly shelled Dubrovnik, Mostar and other cities and sieged Sarajevo for 4 years.

Yeah yeah blame the Serbs for everything, so typical. I don't believe in the story of evil Serbs oppressing their peaceful innocent neighbours, there's more to that conflict.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
It was an attack against euroamerican, judeochristian civilization as such. Civilization which all those Noam Chomskys, Oliver Stones and George Galloways of this world, together with poorly educated leftist teenagers who parrot their rants, hate so much

Nope, it was an attack against United States, not an attack against whole western civilization. They did not attack New York because of their hate towards western ideas of democracy and freedom or because of trashy American television shows. No, they attacked United States because of its actions in Middle East which they opposed.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
love your baseless rants. Are they result of just poor education or is there more to the story? The UK and especially France still had the option not to push for crippling war reparations so hard at Versailles. That's where you should point your fingers.

I know that already thanks to the superior Finnish education I've received, I already said the real ones to blame for WW2 are the ones who ruined German economy with huge war reparations, not the United States which in fact indeed was against those over sized reparations.

Still it doesn't change the fact that if United States hadn't intervened in WW1 Germany could have won the war and Nazis or other extremists would have never gotten into power. I'm just pointing out a fact, not blaming the US for WW2.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
Your point is?

It has to be spelled out for you??? OUR CULTURE isn't the only one that enslaved blacks. BLACK CULTURE ALSO enslaved blacks!! Almost every culture that has ever existed has enslaved others. Is that CLEAR ENOUGH???



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12287 posts, RR: 25
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1574 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 41):
Is that CLEAR ENOUGH???

Clear, but wrong-headed, if one is trying to excuse our behavior because other cultures did similar things.

That's the old "But mommy, Jimmy's doing it too" defense.

Put another way, there are other cultures are cannibals, so it's ok for us to be cannibals too?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

You singled out 'our culture', differentiating 'our culture' from other cultures. I merely pointed out that most cultures also enslaved others. So, it's discrimination for you to point the finger at only 'our culture' like we're the only ones enslaving others. Don't judge only 'our culture'....judge every culture.


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2741 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1546 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

The thread has gone off topic and will be archived to future posts.

Regards,
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
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