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Race Relations In The U.S. - What's Next?  
User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13638 posts, RR: 62
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2570 times:
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As part of a discussion in the George Zimmerman thread, forum member BN747 and I discussed how aspects of the case centered on race. From our discussion:


[Quoting BN747]
Every case that has come before it with opposing blacks and whites .. has been about race - as will ever case after this until America really comes to grips with the issue.

[Quoting EA CO AS]
Let's discuss this; what - in your view - does "coming to grips with the issue" look like? Be specific.

[Quoting BN747]
I'm game if your (sic) sincere and start a separate thread if you're curious as to what that means.



I'd like to get input - not just from BN747, but from all interested members - on the following:

  • What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

  • What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' look like in practice?

  • How will race relations and society in the U.S. differ from what it is today after the aforementioned occur?


  • This is meant to be a serious discussion, so please leave any sarcastic commentary or race-baiting out.


    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
    46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
     
    User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
    Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

    Well, like most issues, I see the answer as lying in the middle of the 2 opposing sides. I don't think Zimmerman was out to kill black people, though I'm sure he (like many people) was more suspicious of Martin than he'd be to a white person--not denying prejudice in our society. I think the media is racist, on purpose or on accident is up to debate. We hardly see cases of missing minority women (or men) but the murders/disappearance of a pretty white woman is followed ad nauseum. The talk of riots is annoying. Sure, "black people have rioted in the past," a few times. But it's always "if Obama loses, black people will riot. If Zimmerman walks, black people will riot." Etc

    Frankly, IDK why this case got picked up by the media, nor do I know why most the cases they follow get picked up minus "slow news days." I'm sure there are plenty of similar cases that happen weekly. I care about Martin's death as much as I care about the thousands that die yearly but yet, only a few make it to the national headlines

    Not sure if that answers your question. Some posters are just outspoken, keep that in mind, and I think I'll watch this battle from a distance  



    Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
    User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10096 posts, RR: 26
    Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2543 times:
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    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

    When anyone and everyone can make racial jokes, intend them only as jokes, and no one gets offended.

    I'm half joking....but half serious as well.



    "Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
    User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2185 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2534 times:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

    Nothing. It will never happen.

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' look like in practice?

    A utopian society.

    This may sound like I am trying to be funny, but I am dead serious. I have seen it in real life and I know how both sides feel about the issue (I have seen extremes on both sides).

    The sad part is, racism will always be around in the US.

    Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
    When anyone and everyone can make racial jokes, intend them only as jokes, and no one gets offended.

      



    Go coogs! \n//
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    This is meant to be a serious discussion, so please leave any sarcastic commentary or race-baiting out.

    I appreciate that statement most, how well it works - well it won't. I know this place far to well, the super silly just can't resist themselves.

    But I called you on it..and here it is. Race Problems are difficult to explain if you know a lot about and easy if you know less. Knowing a lot means having firm grasp on it's history and it's trajectory leading all the way up to today. From Queen Elizabeth expelling blacks from the country the way the US is shipping out 'brown' illegals.

    But whatever the end game in the race dynamic - the aim is to make it work, because we can go back - give the country to the Native Americans, Blacks to the Caribbean and Africa, Asians to China, Singapore, etc..just not in the cards and everyone knows it even the most extreme racist who visit Stormfront ever hour.

    So the end game is the answer to 'what it will look like' when America comes to grip with the issue...and I believe we're halfway there or more.

    But what must be understood that if the gulf between the two extremes Black and White is bridged, the rest will fall into place.



    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):

    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' look like in practice?

    How will race relations and society in the U.S. differ from what it is today after the aforementioned occur?

    Let begin by saying, I just went back to review a huge race issue posted here 7 years go...

    Titled : Obama Has Lost The Race
    Obama Has Lost The Race (by Cfalk Aug 3 2007 in Non Aviation)

    I wanted to read this just to gauge where the 'state of the board' was 7 seven years ago before the Election of 2008.

    I wanted to see whether or not attitudes changed much in that time span. Some of the posters are no longer active members.

    First off, when discussing race, everyone has ranging practical experience on the subject some more than others and age certainly plays it's part. And we are discussing this from the American platform because it's just easier because the problem is indeed global. Some places will get to where America is today - 50 years from now.

    Race is a real touchy and divisive issue in America, in a forum like this, it falls in the category of 'not speaking of politics and religion' at the dinner table, because most people are 'believe it or not..are non-confrontational, everyday, there's a poster stating off with 'I've been a member for years, but this is my 1st post, so don't flame me.. ' and there are the hit n' run artist like the clowns who leave the most silly, ridiculous or even offensive remarks anonymously on YT. .. just to get in a cheap laugh or a cheap shot.

    The aim of America's Race problem is to eradicated it... that is if you want it gone. EA CO AS wants to know MHO ...So here it goes..

    It's my observation most conservatives HATE discussing or are extremely uncomfortable talking about it. I've found the best test to check where your stand on racism is to measure it along the lines of where you stand on sexism and homophobia.

    Not a person on this planet can argue these facts.

    The Obama Administration has been the most Gay Friendly administration in history - and yet some Gays (somewhere in the USA) will not appreciate that for whatever reason - the guy has got behind their causes like no president before him - is it Race that's stopping them? (No, it's his policies - hey, take your pick..no group can have it all).

    If Hilary Clinton runs and wins in the 2016 Election (or any woman for that matter)... will women vote for her simply because she is a woman? How would that be wrong if they did?

    When the 1st Gay President is elected, and all (or most) gays cast votes for him (or Lesbian Present) her, will they be wrong? If so how?

    When the 1st Asian American or Latino American is elected, with the ethnic backers of each be wrong for supporting them in unanimous fashion?

    Clearly where this questioning is aimed - is at those who've used the line 'Well I'm sure blacks voted for him because he was black.."

    Why are blacks not allowed do what what you would understandably support for female supporter, gay supporters or the others. So if you've used that line...you have race issues against blacks if you do use it as well towards gays, latinos or any other minority group.

    If you cannot apply the same standard that you use to view sexism when viewing gay issues - you have homophobic issues.

    If you cannot apply the same standard that you use to view gay issues when viewing latino issues - you have some prejudices against latinos.

    ..and arabs, Persians, blacks, whatever.

    THAT is a pretty tough bar to live up to and uphold, for younger people it's pretty easy to a point. I'd be lying my ass off if I said I live up to it. Fat people use to annoy the hell out of me, I had to tell myself that 'I don't know the whole story..who knows why they're in the state they are in..I don't' but I could learn if I really cared. Outward Religious people annoy me especially if I see a woman in a burka following a man towing kids - I see it as spreading ignorance - one needs to only look at the most religious states to see what a mess that is and the threat it poses to social advancement - but they have a right to choose that life (yes many times it is forced onto them as kids) - but a different thread. But regardless of may hang ups, I won't spread them senselessly on a forum this.

    But when I'm bored and I see annoying post with racist slants..sometimes I comment...sometimes I do not..depending on my mood and available free time. I've learned you can't change people..only they can. But i have seen some kids grow up here and they are growing up better than when I first came here, When I first joined in 2002, this place was super homophobic and very racist - all most all those guys are history..but they swayed a lot young minds that ventured here. I took a lot of grief for battling the homophobes, and a good deal for pointing out racist conduct. Taking that kind of heat does teach young people not to fear confrontation and you don;t have to 'go along' to get along...I see more guys that ever standing their ground - it didn't use to be that way. That leads to open minds...going along just to get along doesn't.

    Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):

    When anyone and everyone can make racial jokes, intend them only as jokes, and no one gets offended.

    I know you're just kidding here.. but here's a true story on 'offending'.

    This was about 20+ years ago.

    I went to my local restaurant bar for after hour with bud, we started to drink and in no time flat it was girl talk - what we had done the night before - real XXX guy talk, He asked some odd ball question and I answered something completely stupid like " i just smacked her around and got she came around'... it was pure tough guy BS talk, I have never hit a woman in my life! Broke glasses and stuff yea, striking a woman..no one can blame that on me. But that's how guys spoke, those were the days you could smack a woman's ass in a club and the worse that would happen is you'd get smacked or a drink tossed on you o have to deal with her BF. Not a sexual assault charge like today (that's progress!). But I digress.. so right after my comment I feel cold liquid rolling down my skull, a girl two stools over had heard my
    ignorant 'smack 'em around' and dumped her drink on me. My quick witted 'golden gloves' of true knuckle-dragging persuasion took our pitcher of beer and dumped it on her! I was like holy f**k...whoa, whoa..slow down... my friend was the manager and threw them out - (I spent a lot of money there - taking my office staff there for happy hour weekly without fail). But bottomline is...yes, the wrong timing and it can be very offensive to someone.

    But later I learned they were worker and survivor of a Women's Abuse Clinic. And i never forgot that..to this day. That was my wake up call to take a stand when I could against people being picked on - especially those who can't or who are unable to fight back. That's why I could never be a member of a party that can easily 'write people off' like last years losses.

    The N-word .. free speech my carcasss, just like the B-word and the Fag or Homo word...the same standard above applies here.

    When two blacks trade the word, they know there's no sting or animosity hidden or laced into it's usage.

    Same goes for two women they say the B or the C word...but from some strange man? That's asking for trouble.

    Between to gay men, same deal...they can call each other that...you can't. So every word does not belong to you or me. It's the way it is. You wouldn't go to Mexico and just starting firing off spanish swear words..why feel the need to do it here...it's respect there, why not here?

    Racism is a powerful tool, right now it's playing out on youtube with nasty remarks about Asians on any page with Asiana's lost 777 video. Let Aeromexico have an incident and watch the comments flow..and guess where most of it originates - yep, the USA! That's can not be refuted.

    So the battle is a long one but it will be beaten. I'm sure more will come but my brain is fried...It's late, I'm tired and a lot to do tomorrow.



    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39905 posts, RR: 75
    Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2477 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    When the 1st Gay President is elected, and all (or most) gays cast votes for him (or Lesbian Present) her, will they be wrong? If so how?

    Already happened.




    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2474 times:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

    It means when everything stops being about race.

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' look like in practice?

    Vikkyvik has it right, when 'racist' jokes aren't considered racist anymore.

    You also need to see politicians, the media and everyone else stop framing everything in terms of race. When Obama announced his son would look like Trayvon, he single handedly took back so much of the true reconciliation he -and America- had achieved through his election. The fact there is caucuses for every race is frustrating. You are there to represent the people of your district, you are not there representing black people or Latino people. You're disenfranchising the individuals in your district who aren't the same race as you.

    The media should stop talking about courting the 'Latino vote', you never hear them talking about the blue eyed vote, the long haired vote nor the introverted vote. You have rich white people who are saying all blacks vote identically, as do all Latinos. Essentially saying that individuals don't have any agency beyond their race. Someone is black so they must vote Democrat? -I'd send a polite Fuck you to anyone claiming as much.

    You need universities to not look at race on admissions, just as they don't require you to put down blue eyed nor curly haired. This serves to reinforce race differences, if you're not black then you're white, Asian, Latino or Native. The last affirmative action case really shouldn't have gone to the SCOTUS, it was clear the girl's admission was not based on race. Find someone who demonstrably was not admitted because of their race.

    Hate crimes need to be taken off the books. A murder is murder, assault is assault. You're devaluing someone -because of their race- when the punishment their killer gets depends on their race.

    Just a few relatively simple steps that would get America on track to true reconciliation. No government intervention or long wielded social policies to do a poor job of conjuring 'equality' whatever that means.

    Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
    We hardly see cases of missing minority women (or men) but the murders/disappearance of a pretty white woman is followed ad nauseum. The talk of riots is annoying.

    I think you'll find the media doesn't touch minority-on-white murder very much either. So long as it is committed by a white or someone they can pass off as white. This excludes otherwise notable cases, serial/spree killers, celebrities etc.


    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    It's my observation most conservatives HATE discussing or are extremely uncomfortable talking about it. I've found the best test to check where your stand on racism is to measure it along the lines of where you stand on sexism and homophobia.

    Let's discuss it then. I find it funny though that your post centers around your own prejudices and expectations of what other people should do.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    If Hilary Clinton runs and wins in the 2016 Election (or any woman for that matter)... will women vote for her simply because she is a woman? How would that be wrong if they did?

    I would hope not, and yes, it would be wrong. You should not vote like that - it's no different than nepotism, where people get hired because of their family connections instead of their talents.

    If you look at Hillary's platform and proposals, her track history of managing an organization, her track history of working with the opposition and getting things done, and your impressions around her integrity and honesty, and you like what you see (more than in her opponent), then vote for her. Her sex, race, etc should not enter into it.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    When the 1st Gay President is elected, and all (or most) gays cast votes for him (or Lesbian Present) her, will they be wrong? If so how?

    Wrong, for the same reason. What does his/her being gay matter in regards to fiscal policy, terrorism, international affairs etc? Nothing.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    When the 1st Asian American or Latino American is elected, with the ethnic backers of each be wrong for supporting them in unanimous fashion?

    Ditto.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    Clearly where this questioning is aimed - is at those who've used the line 'Well I'm sure blacks voted for him because he was black.."

    Why are blacks not allowed do what what you would understandably support for female supporter, gay supporters or the others. So if you've used that line...you have race issues against blacks if you do use it as well towards gays, latinos or any other minority group.

    And there you go. In your opinion you seem to think that it is perfectly acceptable for all blacks to vote for the black guy (and therefore, it must be acceptable for all whites to vote for the white guy). I disagree.

    The US only started to really come to grips with racism over the past 50 years or so. I think we've come a hell of a long way - probably further than any other country in the world where the population is so diverse. I've heard people from (say, Finland) criticize the US for it's race issues, but they are coming from a homogeneous society where you might see one black guy per month. I think we've done pretty damned good.

    That does not mean racism is eradicated - far from it. I think we are in a delicate situation now where action is still required, but some of the more heavy-handed anti-racism methods used in the 70s (such as affirmative action) may actually be counterproductive as they cause resentment and ironically, more racist feelings. It is a delicate balance to be walked.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
    Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    And we are discussing this from the American platform because it's just easier because the problem is indeed global. Some places will get to where America is today - 50 years from now.

    Some places never were where America was. Slavery was global, but Jim Crow laws weren't. The KKK wasn't either. Doesn't mean there isn't racism elsewhere, but it wasn't institutionalized as recently as the 60's in other western countries.



    New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39905 posts, RR: 75
    Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2406 times:

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
    it wasn't institutionalized as recently as the 60's in other western countries.

    Tell that to South Africans that lived under Apartheid up until 1994.



    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
    Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

    Not a western country. Race relations there are screwed for centuries to come.


    New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39905 posts, RR: 75
    Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2372 times:

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
    Not a western country.

    It certainly was when they had Apartheid.



    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2361 times:

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
    Some places never were where America was. Slavery was global, but Jim Crow laws weren't. The KKK wasn't either. Doesn't mean there isn't racism elsewhere, but it wasn't institutionalized as recently as the 60's in other western countries.

    Most other countries did not have such a mixed population either. It's easy not to be racist when your country is 99% homogeneous and seeing a black man on the streets is the occasional oddity. Look at all the backlash that's happening now in countries that have only recently (past couple of generations) started getting large numbers of immigrants from Africa and Asia. It is human nature to have an "Us and Them" mentality, unfortunately, and it's not that easy to overcome that, unless the minority work hard to assimilate into the host culture so that the natives don't feel like their very culture is threatened.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2357 times:

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    Let's discuss it then.

    .

    Well it'd be honest of you to admit that..

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    Titled : Obama Has Lost The Race
    Obama Has Lost The Race (by Cfalk Aug 3 2007 in Non Aviation)

    If we we're being all honest in our discussion here , your opening line would have been to admit... you were the OP under your old username Cfalk. But since you're not going to... but I even in your advanced years, whether or not you admit it..there is still some change in attitude, I see it in your post here vs then.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    I find it funny though that your post centers around your own prejudices and expectations of what other people should do.

    Which of my prejudices ...those against fat people (which I discussed and over came..sorta I did accuse Zimmmerman of eating too many Cheetos - but I see him as child killer). With women in burkas and other religious wear? Nope.

    My expectations...well true. The problem makers in this particular venue/subject matter are indeed to be 'spot lighted' because they are the one's who keep age old ideas and prejudices alive. Do I expect anything from them? No. Do I wish they'd stop breeding and passing on their ideas? Yes. Can I stop it - no. They'll have to cope as their numbers dwindle and education on racist attitudes expand.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    If Hilary Clinton runs and wins in the 2016 Election (or any woman for that matter)... will women vote for her simply because she is a woman? How would that be wrong if they did?

    I would hope not, and yes, it would be wrong. You should not vote like that

    And then there are somethings you will never get. Like this..

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    And there you go. In your opinion you seem to think that it is perfectly acceptable for all blacks to vote for the black guy (and therefore, it must be acceptable for all whites to vote for the white guy). I disagree.

    For most of America's years 'all whites to vote for the white guy' did just that (in their minds it was 'their country' ..and yet many of them are still here today along with their same out-dated thoughts) and in the minds of many elder non-whites ...that is the way they remember it. So they indeed did cast their 1st vote for Obama because he was not and while they live among many whites who did their vote casting based on 'all white candidates' still live...and here you are calling the others wrong. No they are not wrong. But you're entitled yo viewpoint.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    The US only started to really come to grips with racism over the past 50 years or so. I think we've come a hell of a long way - probably further than any other country in the world where the population is so diverse.

    Given what came before that 50 years.. that's a big bite, A lot of what was overcome could have been done in half the time but foot-draggers who are with us .. still this day are doing their very best to slow down progress and hang on til their dying breath (targeting politicians here - Paula Deen's saying the N-word IS NOT the problem with warped older minds - it's her nothing before hand to express things like 'I'd like to have a wedding like the old days w black servants dressed in white, etc ...and the story she told on live tv just last year - where she tried to get the audience to be sympathetic for her great grandfather (her words here) "who after the Civil War , lost a son, looked around and saw that all his 'workers' had left. So he could work his acres and acres himself..so he went in the barn and took his life" THAT is the problem! She can tell that story around the dinner table ever night if she wishes... but she cannot be paid by a network or a sponsor that has widespread appeal and expect people not be offended by the ignorance in what she is not getting as she speaks from a mindset like that. In her mind , as she has so freely shared..she sees nothing wrong with it. Many old politicians of the GOP persuasion share her sentiments - most younger Americans take great offense to take great offense to that along with many older Americans who long jettisoned such sympathies. She thought it perfect acceptable to share all this and think nothing of it/ She couldn't even bring her self to recognize the name, worth or importance of 'the workers' as people. That was an still is her problem - a state of mind.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    've heard people from (say, Finland) criticize the US for it's race issues, but they are coming from a homogeneous society where you might see one black guy per month. I think we've done pretty damned good.

    There is room for much improvement. We have that Hawthorne Police situation right now where the cops killed that black guy's dog resulting in open death threats to the HPD. The cops were there for a much larger situation and should have remained focused on their SWAT ops rather than break away and pick out one annoying guy (of a block full all video taping them) and when they did arrest him -- let him secure the animal..it was a rottweiler for crissakes! What did you think it was gonna do? This thing has swell into a huge mess when just a tad bit of common sense would have still resulted with him jail - but minus the national outrage of people seeing that poor dog being shot to death and suffering as he struggled thru pain - that incident just added generational years to on-going black/latino vs cop dynamic. Cops had better realize they need to do their part to reverse this trend and do it fast...death threats to cops is not a good sign of progress, some idiots are now taking shots at officers. You have the great story of a cop who paid for a black kid's snack at McDonalds in San Diego..walked outside and was killed in cold blood - he was a war vet! That's where things are head good cops getting taken out by cop haters or whomever when as the population grows we need more cops and preferably as many good ones as we can get...not idiots could not think to let the man secure his dog - then arrest him. California has to be the biggest animal rights state there is and it's gonna do nothing but grow..so that crap won't fly here...that one or those cops will feel more heat over the animal's death and anything that comes from dealing with it's owner.

    As for Finland...true and they are not alone. But they'll have to go thru some form of social transition as well, maybe not as much due to the climate.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    think we are in a delicate situation now where action is still required, but some of the more heavy-handed anti-racism methods used in the 70s (such as affirmative action) may actually be counterproductive as they cause resentment and ironically, more racist feelings. It is a delicate balance to be walked.

    Mostly true, but it was the anti-racism methods of that 70s that got things where they are today..people didn't just change. Those methods you attack is nothing more than attack on the very methods as means of a political tool to separate and continue dog whistle tactics. Without those measures you're criticizing we wouldn't be were we are today until about 2025 or later. An indepth study of race progress since the beginning will bear that out. The dominant culture has every intent to preserve itself.. the face of that culture itself is changing...so will it's direction.

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):

    Some places never were where America was.

    Exactly, The world is growing, even the most homogeneous societies will become less so. They cannot stop if from happening. So they'll have go thru some phase of what occurred here. Many African states will have go through the Stonewall battle from scratch because of idiot leaders trying use divisiveness and ignorance as a tool.

    BN747



    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8181 posts, RR: 26
    Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
    Not a western country.

    Sorry, what?? Really? How do you define a western country, out of curiosity?



    If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2324 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):
    If we we're being all honest in our discussion here , your opening line would have been to admit... you were the OP under your old username Cfalk. But since you're not going to... but I even in your advanced years, whether or not you admit it..there is still some change in attitude, I see it in your post here vs then.

    Pretty much everyone here knows my previous ID - I've never hidden it.

    By the way, I note that generally my posts stood up to the test of time. Obviously BO's desire to go into Pakistan was prescient but did not get a lot of airplay.

    Quote:
    In all the countries that his proposals have been tried, the results have nearly always brought high unemployment and/or a long-term stagnant economy. But he doesn't seem to mind that, as long as he gets elected (Most dems are like that these days, it seems).

    Which is what we've had for several years and no improvement is on the horizon - if anything things will get worse as interest rates finally start to rise.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):
    Many old politicians of the GOP persuasion share her sentiments - most younger Americans take great offense to take great offense to that along with many older Americans who long jettisoned such sympathies.

    If you asked her what her parents' political affiliation was when she was a kid and learned all those quaint words and the idea of an "old fashioned southern wedding" etc, I'll bet it started with a D. Just sayin...

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):
    There is room for much improvement.

    No question about that.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):
    Mostly true, but it was the anti-racism methods of that 70s that got things where they are today..people didn't just change. Those methods you attack is nothing more than attack on the very methods as means of a political tool to separate and continue dog whistle tactics.

    What affirmative action did was to force some manner of integration into the more institutionalized closed arenas, and get people to actually work and live next to minorities and by seeing them every day doing their job, that they are just as capable as anyone else. I think that point has been widely made.

    The downside to the practice however (and I have seen this first-hand) is that when a new hire comes aboard and is black, and we know that affirmative action mandates are being adhered to, there is an immediate suspicion among the work force that maybe this newbie is not qualified for the job and was hired to fill a quota. For a while, he is not entrusted with anything important. In the case I saw of this, over a period of a couple of months this new engineer overcame people's doubts by working extra hard. He is now a VP in the company where I work and is generally seen as a fine engineer and manager of his department. But he's told me over beers that he carried some resentment over how he was looked on with suspicion for a while until he could prove that he actually deserved to be there.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10096 posts, RR: 26
    Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2298 times:
    Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    Same goes for two women they say the B or the C word...but from some strange man? That's asking for trouble.

    I think you actually supported my point. When it's not automatically "asking for trouble" anymore, then we'll have reached a new level of relations.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    I would hope not, and yes, it would be wrong. You should not vote like that - it's no different than nepotism, where people get hired because of their family connections instead of their talents.

    I'm sorry, but there are unique issues that each group of people has to deal with. A woman has to deal with pregnancy and childbirth, for example, and it's understandable that they may want someone in office who has also had to deal with such things.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    Wrong, for the same reason. What does his/her being gay matter in regards to fiscal policy, terrorism, international affairs etc? Nothing.

    Might matter a whole lot to social issues, though, which are just as valid a reason for voting for a candidate.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15):
    By the way, I note that generally my posts stood up to the test of time.

    Except for the rather important fact that Obama won.  



    "Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
    User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

    Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
    It means when everything stops being about race.

       Agreed. It is probably because the only two U.S. cities I have lived in white Americans are the minority (Miami, D.C) but I always see this race thing blown way out of proportion. I am sick of it being an issue. People are people that is what matters not what race they are. Yet it is a double standard so often. White man kills a black man, he may have been racist. Black man kills a white man it was just violence. And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..

    Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
    You need universities to not look at race on admissions,

    Bingo. Any special aid to be admitted to college should be based on financial circumstances not race.

    Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):

    Frankly, IDK why this case got picked up by the media

    A white man killed a black teenager and was not immediately arrested for it because the DA was not sure if charges could be sustained. It was only about race to start and many want to keep race in it. I heard the Martin family attorney on CNN last night talk about this trial being about race. It has NOTHING to do with race. That is the last thing we want in the court of law. Great attorney   



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39905 posts, RR: 75
    Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    Yet it is a double standard so often. White man kills a black man, he may have been racist. Black man kills a white man it was just violence. And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..

      
    Yet Black on Black crime is almost 10 times higher than White on Black crime. It seems as though Black on Black crime is ok and get's a free pass. Also Hispanic on Black & vs-versa is a growing problem as well.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    Bingo. Any special aid to be admitted to college should be based on financial circumstances not race.

    With the growing number of goofy liberal arts courses and majors being offered at Universities today, I don't even think it even matters anymore. College degrees have become so devalued yet the cost to go will keep you in debt most of your adult life.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 12):
    Most other countries did not have such a mixed population either. It's easy not to be racist when your country is 99% homogeneous and seeing a black man on the streets is the occasional oddity. Look at all the backlash that's happening now in countries that have only recently (past couple of generations) started getting large numbers of immigrants from Africa and Asia.

    Very true and that is the case in a lot of eastern European countries such as Russia and the Ukraine. Skinhead, neo-Nazi attacks on foreigners are common and often times go unpunished.



    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2258 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    I heard the Martin family attorney on CNN last night talk about this trial being about race. It has NOTHING to do with race. That is the last thing we want in the court of law. Great attorney

    To her credit, as I recall, Martin's mother said the exact opposite recently, and that she deplored this story being made into a race issue.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
    Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

    Serious discussion about improving race relations is useless so long as the economic inequality in our society continues to grow by leaps and bounds.


    Live life to the fullest.
    User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 19):
    To her credit, as I recall, Martin's mother said the exact opposite recently, and that she deplored this story being made into a race issue.

    Good for her. That is good to hear. It is about a teenage who was killed. Whether or not it was justified is the only issue in this case.



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5618 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    but I always see this race thing blown way out of proportion. I am sick of it being an issue. People are people that is what matters not what race they are.

    Well that may be your simplistic view finishing up with wishful thinking that you always here children express.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    . And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..

    That's because you're poorly informed about the definition of racism versus prejudice and making the common error of just picking the term you think is applicable as opposed to the appropriate one.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
    You need universities to not look at race on admissions,

    Bingo. Any special aid to be admitted to college should be based on financial circumstances not race.

    Sure, special consideration of education for those with wealth .. too back for those without it. That makes sense in the ultimate greedy world.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    A white man killed a black teenager and was not immediately arrested for it because the DA was not sure if charges could be sustained. It was only about race to start and many want to keep race in it. I heard the Martin family attorney on CNN last night talk about this trial being about race. It has NOTHING to do with race. That is the last thing we want in the court of law. Great attorney

    It really isn't about race to someone who lacks proper historical context that has led up to the moment. From your past photo (and I could be wrong) you appear to be of a latino/hispanic ethnicity - take that history in America, exchange it to read for years after slavery, latinos were hunted and lynched for whatever reason was deemed necessary across the country..many times with law enforcement assisting in the lynching which morphed into white police shootings of latinos with little to no justification and always a guaranteed acquittal of white juries - then recall all the false blame on random blacks -which works perfectly as a convenient excuse vis a vis Charles Stewart killing his wife using that excuse triggering the Boston Police to sweep black neighborhoods and arrested 100s of innocent black males, then Susan Smith pushing her car with her kids inside into a lake and blaming 'a black guy' resulting a similar round up in South Carolina and many many more before that.

    Name one case where a white male was accused of something and black police stormed a white community rounding up and harassing white males to get a suspect that does not exist. People like you don't want to fully apply the historical standard to themselves also find themselves not liking it when it's done to them..then you suddenly have an appreciation of 'historical context'. Educate yourself before it's too late because on your current trajectory with such a patchwork belief that you know what's going on...will indeed return to haunt you.

    Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
    Yet Black on Black crime is almost 10 times higher than White on Black crime. It seems as though Black on Black crime is ok and get's a free pass. Also Hispanic on Black & vs-versa is a growing problem as well.

    The dominant white culture makes the decision here to let them sort it out, because their intervention beyond the pale could trigger an explosive incident by accident. You don't see the police stopping Vietnamese on vietnamese crimes of Cambodian gangs crime waves on their people any more than you see the cops intervening in Russian mobster activity..it's a cultural problem that does need to be addressed, but few if any police departments are equipped to handle it. I personally am not distraught about black on black crime any more than I am on white on white crime...because crime exist in each corner. The gun deaths of black on black crime are largely gang-related crimes.. it's not angry 9-5 black citizen killing next door 9-5 neighbor. latino gangs are killing each other just like other gangs - the effort to end that must come from within - it is just too much to ask or expect anyone else to step in and solve it.

    Quoting avek00 (Reply 20):
    Serious discussion about improving race relations is useless so long as the economic inequality in our society continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

    Sad....but the honest truth. As people get more and more desperate..any tool will do.

    BN747



    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13638 posts, RR: 62
    Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2197 times:
    Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):. And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..
    That's because you're poorly informed about the definition of racism versus prejudice and making the common error of just picking the term you think is applicable as opposed to the appropriate one.

      

    Holier-than-thou "I'm smarter than you are" comments like this are unnecessary. You turn people off with that and solve nothing.

    Start being a bit more humble and not acting like all others are intellectually inferior to you and you're more likely to have others take your views seriously.

    [Edited 2013-07-09 13:25:36]


    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
    User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8181 posts, RR: 26
    Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

    Quoting avek00 (Reply 20):
    Serious discussion about improving race relations is useless so long as the economic inequality in our society continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

    This is the logical and pragmatic view too many people are afraid to acknowledge.



    If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
    25 ALTF4 : This is a genuine question, but one that people typically ignore or pretend they did not see: I think the classical definition of 'race' is one of the
    26 QFA380 : Don't know how you missed it but most ordinary people would be able to tell he's saying give advantage to those with financial disadvantage. Not base
    27 flymia : It may be simplistic but its what I believe. Again I have only lived in cities and in times where racism is not a big issue and whites are the minori
    28 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : I'm with you, I was very fortunate to grow up in a place where racism was extremely rare. Yes, I'm a white and the majority was white, but I have pos
    29 Superfly : Oh really? Explain the death of Derrion Albert who was an honor student that was beaten to death with splintered railroad ties. Explain the death of
    30 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : To be fair, he did say "largely," and I think there is a lot of data to back up what he said though he probably should show some data if his point is
    31 Superfly : Would be interesting to see. I know the number of deaths from knives, hammers and very high as well.
    32 Post contains links flymia : I am sure a decent portion of black on black crime is gang related but it would surprise me if it is over 50%. Anyway here is an interesting chart fr
    33 Post contains links and images BN747 : How on earth are you going to lecture me about 'holier than thou' and condescending tons when all one needs to do is look at almost every post from y
    34 flymia : Care to elaborate on how our immigration system is racist? I jut don't see how it is racist. I spent a year of law school working at DHS I.C.E. trial
    35 bhill : I think it, hopefully, will go the way sexism will go...we are the sum of our conditioning. As for the racist jokes part...when nobody gets the joke??
    36 EA CO AS : Y'know, this whole thread was started based on a fresh start and open-minded discussion. As I said at the outset: You even went as far as to applaud
    37 BN747 : No you weren't .. look at your sole input since opening the thread... coming right me for being a bit gruff with flymia. That's it! You haven't discu
    38 dreadnought : He could handle it if he cared to, but probably doesn't. Same with me and with several other people on this board I have corresponded with - It is us
    39 flymia : There are plenty of people out there like that. It is off putting much of the time. Like you said just ignore those opinions and move on. Sometimes i
    40 BN747 : That's not something to wear as and of honor.. I grew up abroad, never living anywhere for more than two years but a year on average anywhere, What a
    41 flymia : Where did I say it is a badge of honor? I think most people would say that it is a good thing that they have had not had to deal with much racism or
    42 BN747 : I mistook your meaning as in saying ' I've happy you haven't had much racial interaction/exposure and/or history of experience in 'exposure to unjust
    43 Post contains images flymia : That is not what I am pointing to. You did give me your reasons you believe the system is racist. You then said That is not my stance. I did not say
    44 BN747 : From your perspective that's not the problem, but it was made the problem and a divisive lightning rod in a slew of political ads that turned from 't
    45 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : lol yup What cities have you lived in? They sound similar to mine where race wasn't an issue and everyone got along really well (I had friends of eve
    46 flymia : Miami and Washington D.C. Also spent 5 months in Barcelona Spain. Now I went to school in D.C. so much of the time I was in a college environment whi
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