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Race Relations In The U.S. - What's Next?  
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13547 posts, RR: 62
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2540 times:
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As part of a discussion in the George Zimmerman thread, forum member BN747 and I discussed how aspects of the case centered on race. From our discussion:


[Quoting BN747]
Every case that has come before it with opposing blacks and whites .. has been about race - as will ever case after this until America really comes to grips with the issue.

[Quoting EA CO AS]
Let's discuss this; what - in your view - does "coming to grips with the issue" look like? Be specific.

[Quoting BN747]
I'm game if your (sic) sincere and start a separate thread if you're curious as to what that means.



I'd like to get input - not just from BN747, but from all interested members - on the following:

  • What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

  • What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' look like in practice?

  • How will race relations and society in the U.S. differ from what it is today after the aforementioned occur?


  • This is meant to be a serious discussion, so please leave any sarcastic commentary or race-baiting out.


    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
    46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
     
    User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
    Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2528 times:

    Well, like most issues, I see the answer as lying in the middle of the 2 opposing sides. I don't think Zimmerman was out to kill black people, though I'm sure he (like many people) was more suspicious of Martin than he'd be to a white person--not denying prejudice in our society. I think the media is racist, on purpose or on accident is up to debate. We hardly see cases of missing minority women (or men) but the murders/disappearance of a pretty white woman is followed ad nauseum. The talk of riots is annoying. Sure, "black people have rioted in the past," a few times. But it's always "if Obama loses, black people will riot. If Zimmerman walks, black people will riot." Etc

    Frankly, IDK why this case got picked up by the media, nor do I know why most the cases they follow get picked up minus "slow news days." I'm sure there are plenty of similar cases that happen weekly. I care about Martin's death as much as I care about the thousands that die yearly but yet, only a few make it to the national headlines

    Not sure if that answers your question. Some posters are just outspoken, keep that in mind, and I think I'll watch this battle from a distance  



    Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
    User currently onlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9897 posts, RR: 26
    Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2513 times:
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    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

    When anyone and everyone can make racial jokes, intend them only as jokes, and no one gets offended.

    I'm half joking....but half serious as well.



    "Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
    User currently onlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1865 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2504 times:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

    Nothing. It will never happen.

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' look like in practice?

    A utopian society.

    This may sound like I am trying to be funny, but I am dead serious. I have seen it in real life and I know how both sides feel about the issue (I have seen extremes on both sides).

    The sad part is, racism will always be around in the US.

    Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
    When anyone and everyone can make racial jokes, intend them only as jokes, and no one gets offended.

      



    Go coogs! \n//
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2464 times:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    This is meant to be a serious discussion, so please leave any sarcastic commentary or race-baiting out.

    I appreciate that statement most, how well it works - well it won't. I know this place far to well, the super silly just can't resist themselves.

    But I called you on it..and here it is. Race Problems are difficult to explain if you know a lot about and easy if you know less. Knowing a lot means having firm grasp on it's history and it's trajectory leading all the way up to today. From Queen Elizabeth expelling blacks from the country the way the US is shipping out 'brown' illegals.

    But whatever the end game in the race dynamic - the aim is to make it work, because we can go back - give the country to the Native Americans, Blacks to the Caribbean and Africa, Asians to China, Singapore, etc..just not in the cards and everyone knows it even the most extreme racist who visit Stormfront ever hour.

    So the end game is the answer to 'what it will look like' when America comes to grip with the issue...and I believe we're halfway there or more.

    But what must be understood that if the gulf between the two extremes Black and White is bridged, the rest will fall into place.



    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):

    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' look like in practice?

    How will race relations and society in the U.S. differ from what it is today after the aforementioned occur?

    Let begin by saying, I just went back to review a huge race issue posted here 7 years go...

    Titled : Obama Has Lost The Race
    Obama Has Lost The Race (by Cfalk Aug 3 2007 in Non Aviation)

    I wanted to read this just to gauge where the 'state of the board' was 7 seven years ago before the Election of 2008.

    I wanted to see whether or not attitudes changed much in that time span. Some of the posters are no longer active members.

    First off, when discussing race, everyone has ranging practical experience on the subject some more than others and age certainly plays it's part. And we are discussing this from the American platform because it's just easier because the problem is indeed global. Some places will get to where America is today - 50 years from now.

    Race is a real touchy and divisive issue in America, in a forum like this, it falls in the category of 'not speaking of politics and religion' at the dinner table, because most people are 'believe it or not..are non-confrontational, everyday, there's a poster stating off with 'I've been a member for years, but this is my 1st post, so don't flame me.. ' and there are the hit n' run artist like the clowns who leave the most silly, ridiculous or even offensive remarks anonymously on YT. .. just to get in a cheap laugh or a cheap shot.

    The aim of America's Race problem is to eradicated it... that is if you want it gone. EA CO AS wants to know MHO ...So here it goes..

    It's my observation most conservatives HATE discussing or are extremely uncomfortable talking about it. I've found the best test to check where your stand on racism is to measure it along the lines of where you stand on sexism and homophobia.

    Not a person on this planet can argue these facts.

    The Obama Administration has been the most Gay Friendly administration in history - and yet some Gays (somewhere in the USA) will not appreciate that for whatever reason - the guy has got behind their causes like no president before him - is it Race that's stopping them? (No, it's his policies - hey, take your pick..no group can have it all).

    If Hilary Clinton runs and wins in the 2016 Election (or any woman for that matter)... will women vote for her simply because she is a woman? How would that be wrong if they did?

    When the 1st Gay President is elected, and all (or most) gays cast votes for him (or Lesbian Present) her, will they be wrong? If so how?

    When the 1st Asian American or Latino American is elected, with the ethnic backers of each be wrong for supporting them in unanimous fashion?

    Clearly where this questioning is aimed - is at those who've used the line 'Well I'm sure blacks voted for him because he was black.."

    Why are blacks not allowed do what what you would understandably support for female supporter, gay supporters or the others. So if you've used that line...you have race issues against blacks if you do use it as well towards gays, latinos or any other minority group.

    If you cannot apply the same standard that you use to view sexism when viewing gay issues - you have homophobic issues.

    If you cannot apply the same standard that you use to view gay issues when viewing latino issues - you have some prejudices against latinos.

    ..and arabs, Persians, blacks, whatever.

    THAT is a pretty tough bar to live up to and uphold, for younger people it's pretty easy to a point. I'd be lying my ass off if I said I live up to it. Fat people use to annoy the hell out of me, I had to tell myself that 'I don't know the whole story..who knows why they're in the state they are in..I don't' but I could learn if I really cared. Outward Religious people annoy me especially if I see a woman in a burka following a man towing kids - I see it as spreading ignorance - one needs to only look at the most religious states to see what a mess that is and the threat it poses to social advancement - but they have a right to choose that life (yes many times it is forced onto them as kids) - but a different thread. But regardless of may hang ups, I won't spread them senselessly on a forum this.

    But when I'm bored and I see annoying post with racist slants..sometimes I comment...sometimes I do not..depending on my mood and available free time. I've learned you can't change people..only they can. But i have seen some kids grow up here and they are growing up better than when I first came here, When I first joined in 2002, this place was super homophobic and very racist - all most all those guys are history..but they swayed a lot young minds that ventured here. I took a lot of grief for battling the homophobes, and a good deal for pointing out racist conduct. Taking that kind of heat does teach young people not to fear confrontation and you don;t have to 'go along' to get along...I see more guys that ever standing their ground - it didn't use to be that way. That leads to open minds...going along just to get along doesn't.

    Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):

    When anyone and everyone can make racial jokes, intend them only as jokes, and no one gets offended.

    I know you're just kidding here.. but here's a true story on 'offending'.

    This was about 20+ years ago.

    I went to my local restaurant bar for after hour with bud, we started to drink and in no time flat it was girl talk - what we had done the night before - real XXX guy talk, He asked some odd ball question and I answered something completely stupid like " i just smacked her around and got she came around'... it was pure tough guy BS talk, I have never hit a woman in my life! Broke glasses and stuff yea, striking a woman..no one can blame that on me. But that's how guys spoke, those were the days you could smack a woman's ass in a club and the worse that would happen is you'd get smacked or a drink tossed on you o have to deal with her BF. Not a sexual assault charge like today (that's progress!). But I digress.. so right after my comment I feel cold liquid rolling down my skull, a girl two stools over had heard my
    ignorant 'smack 'em around' and dumped her drink on me. My quick witted 'golden gloves' of true knuckle-dragging persuasion took our pitcher of beer and dumped it on her! I was like holy f**k...whoa, whoa..slow down... my friend was the manager and threw them out - (I spent a lot of money there - taking my office staff there for happy hour weekly without fail). But bottomline is...yes, the wrong timing and it can be very offensive to someone.

    But later I learned they were worker and survivor of a Women's Abuse Clinic. And i never forgot that..to this day. That was my wake up call to take a stand when I could against people being picked on - especially those who can't or who are unable to fight back. That's why I could never be a member of a party that can easily 'write people off' like last years losses.

    The N-word .. free speech my carcasss, just like the B-word and the Fag or Homo word...the same standard above applies here.

    When two blacks trade the word, they know there's no sting or animosity hidden or laced into it's usage.

    Same goes for two women they say the B or the C word...but from some strange man? That's asking for trouble.

    Between to gay men, same deal...they can call each other that...you can't. So every word does not belong to you or me. It's the way it is. You wouldn't go to Mexico and just starting firing off spanish swear words..why feel the need to do it here...it's respect there, why not here?

    Racism is a powerful tool, right now it's playing out on youtube with nasty remarks about Asians on any page with Asiana's lost 777 video. Let Aeromexico have an incident and watch the comments flow..and guess where most of it originates - yep, the USA! That's can not be refuted.

    So the battle is a long one but it will be beaten. I'm sure more will come but my brain is fried...It's late, I'm tired and a lot to do tomorrow.



    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
    Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    When the 1st Gay President is elected, and all (or most) gays cast votes for him (or Lesbian Present) her, will they be wrong? If so how?

    Already happened.




    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2061 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' mean to you?

    It means when everything stops being about race.

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    What specifically does 'coming to grips with the issue' look like in practice?

    Vikkyvik has it right, when 'racist' jokes aren't considered racist anymore.

    You also need to see politicians, the media and everyone else stop framing everything in terms of race. When Obama announced his son would look like Trayvon, he single handedly took back so much of the true reconciliation he -and America- had achieved through his election. The fact there is caucuses for every race is frustrating. You are there to represent the people of your district, you are not there representing black people or Latino people. You're disenfranchising the individuals in your district who aren't the same race as you.

    The media should stop talking about courting the 'Latino vote', you never hear them talking about the blue eyed vote, the long haired vote nor the introverted vote. You have rich white people who are saying all blacks vote identically, as do all Latinos. Essentially saying that individuals don't have any agency beyond their race. Someone is black so they must vote Democrat? -I'd send a polite Fuck you to anyone claiming as much.

    You need universities to not look at race on admissions, just as they don't require you to put down blue eyed nor curly haired. This serves to reinforce race differences, if you're not black then you're white, Asian, Latino or Native. The last affirmative action case really shouldn't have gone to the SCOTUS, it was clear the girl's admission was not based on race. Find someone who demonstrably was not admitted because of their race.

    Hate crimes need to be taken off the books. A murder is murder, assault is assault. You're devaluing someone -because of their race- when the punishment their killer gets depends on their race.

    Just a few relatively simple steps that would get America on track to true reconciliation. No government intervention or long wielded social policies to do a poor job of conjuring 'equality' whatever that means.

    Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
    We hardly see cases of missing minority women (or men) but the murders/disappearance of a pretty white woman is followed ad nauseum. The talk of riots is annoying.

    I think you'll find the media doesn't touch minority-on-white murder very much either. So long as it is committed by a white or someone they can pass off as white. This excludes otherwise notable cases, serial/spree killers, celebrities etc.


    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    It's my observation most conservatives HATE discussing or are extremely uncomfortable talking about it. I've found the best test to check where your stand on racism is to measure it along the lines of where you stand on sexism and homophobia.

    Let's discuss it then. I find it funny though that your post centers around your own prejudices and expectations of what other people should do.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    If Hilary Clinton runs and wins in the 2016 Election (or any woman for that matter)... will women vote for her simply because she is a woman? How would that be wrong if they did?

    I would hope not, and yes, it would be wrong. You should not vote like that - it's no different than nepotism, where people get hired because of their family connections instead of their talents.

    If you look at Hillary's platform and proposals, her track history of managing an organization, her track history of working with the opposition and getting things done, and your impressions around her integrity and honesty, and you like what you see (more than in her opponent), then vote for her. Her sex, race, etc should not enter into it.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    When the 1st Gay President is elected, and all (or most) gays cast votes for him (or Lesbian Present) her, will they be wrong? If so how?

    Wrong, for the same reason. What does his/her being gay matter in regards to fiscal policy, terrorism, international affairs etc? Nothing.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    When the 1st Asian American or Latino American is elected, with the ethnic backers of each be wrong for supporting them in unanimous fashion?

    Ditto.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    Clearly where this questioning is aimed - is at those who've used the line 'Well I'm sure blacks voted for him because he was black.."

    Why are blacks not allowed do what what you would understandably support for female supporter, gay supporters or the others. So if you've used that line...you have race issues against blacks if you do use it as well towards gays, latinos or any other minority group.

    And there you go. In your opinion you seem to think that it is perfectly acceptable for all blacks to vote for the black guy (and therefore, it must be acceptable for all whites to vote for the white guy). I disagree.

    The US only started to really come to grips with racism over the past 50 years or so. I think we've come a hell of a long way - probably further than any other country in the world where the population is so diverse. I've heard people from (say, Finland) criticize the US for it's race issues, but they are coming from a homogeneous society where you might see one black guy per month. I think we've done pretty damned good.

    That does not mean racism is eradicated - far from it. I think we are in a delicate situation now where action is still required, but some of the more heavy-handed anti-racism methods used in the 70s (such as affirmative action) may actually be counterproductive as they cause resentment and ironically, more racist feelings. It is a delicate balance to be walked.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6584 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    And we are discussing this from the American platform because it's just easier because the problem is indeed global. Some places will get to where America is today - 50 years from now.

    Some places never were where America was. Slavery was global, but Jim Crow laws weren't. The KKK wasn't either. Doesn't mean there isn't racism elsewhere, but it wasn't institutionalized as recently as the 60's in other western countries.



    New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
    Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2376 times:

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
    it wasn't institutionalized as recently as the 60's in other western countries.

    Tell that to South Africans that lived under Apartheid up until 1994.



    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6584 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

    Not a western country. Race relations there are screwed for centuries to come.


    New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
    Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
    Not a western country.

    It certainly was when they had Apartheid.



    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
    Some places never were where America was. Slavery was global, but Jim Crow laws weren't. The KKK wasn't either. Doesn't mean there isn't racism elsewhere, but it wasn't institutionalized as recently as the 60's in other western countries.

    Most other countries did not have such a mixed population either. It's easy not to be racist when your country is 99% homogeneous and seeing a black man on the streets is the occasional oddity. Look at all the backlash that's happening now in countries that have only recently (past couple of generations) started getting large numbers of immigrants from Africa and Asia. It is human nature to have an "Us and Them" mentality, unfortunately, and it's not that easy to overcome that, unless the minority work hard to assimilate into the host culture so that the natives don't feel like their very culture is threatened.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2327 times:

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    Let's discuss it then.

    .

    Well it'd be honest of you to admit that..

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    Titled : Obama Has Lost The Race
    Obama Has Lost The Race (by Cfalk Aug 3 2007 in Non Aviation)

    If we we're being all honest in our discussion here , your opening line would have been to admit... you were the OP under your old username Cfalk. But since you're not going to... but I even in your advanced years, whether or not you admit it..there is still some change in attitude, I see it in your post here vs then.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    I find it funny though that your post centers around your own prejudices and expectations of what other people should do.

    Which of my prejudices ...those against fat people (which I discussed and over came..sorta I did accuse Zimmmerman of eating too many Cheetos - but I see him as child killer). With women in burkas and other religious wear? Nope.

    My expectations...well true. The problem makers in this particular venue/subject matter are indeed to be 'spot lighted' because they are the one's who keep age old ideas and prejudices alive. Do I expect anything from them? No. Do I wish they'd stop breeding and passing on their ideas? Yes. Can I stop it - no. They'll have to cope as their numbers dwindle and education on racist attitudes expand.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    If Hilary Clinton runs and wins in the 2016 Election (or any woman for that matter)... will women vote for her simply because she is a woman? How would that be wrong if they did?

    I would hope not, and yes, it would be wrong. You should not vote like that

    And then there are somethings you will never get. Like this..

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    And there you go. In your opinion you seem to think that it is perfectly acceptable for all blacks to vote for the black guy (and therefore, it must be acceptable for all whites to vote for the white guy). I disagree.

    For most of America's years 'all whites to vote for the white guy' did just that (in their minds it was 'their country' ..and yet many of them are still here today along with their same out-dated thoughts) and in the minds of many elder non-whites ...that is the way they remember it. So they indeed did cast their 1st vote for Obama because he was not and while they live among many whites who did their vote casting based on 'all white candidates' still live...and here you are calling the others wrong. No they are not wrong. But you're entitled yo viewpoint.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    The US only started to really come to grips with racism over the past 50 years or so. I think we've come a hell of a long way - probably further than any other country in the world where the population is so diverse.

    Given what came before that 50 years.. that's a big bite, A lot of what was overcome could have been done in half the time but foot-draggers who are with us .. still this day are doing their very best to slow down progress and hang on til their dying breath (targeting politicians here - Paula Deen's saying the N-word IS NOT the problem with warped older minds - it's her nothing before hand to express things like 'I'd like to have a wedding like the old days w black servants dressed in white, etc ...and the story she told on live tv just last year - where she tried to get the audience to be sympathetic for her great grandfather (her words here) "who after the Civil War , lost a son, looked around and saw that all his 'workers' had left. So he could work his acres and acres himself..so he went in the barn and took his life" THAT is the problem! She can tell that story around the dinner table ever night if she wishes... but she cannot be paid by a network or a sponsor that has widespread appeal and expect people not be offended by the ignorance in what she is not getting as she speaks from a mindset like that. In her mind , as she has so freely shared..she sees nothing wrong with it. Many old politicians of the GOP persuasion share her sentiments - most younger Americans take great offense to take great offense to that along with many older Americans who long jettisoned such sympathies. She thought it perfect acceptable to share all this and think nothing of it/ She couldn't even bring her self to recognize the name, worth or importance of 'the workers' as people. That was an still is her problem - a state of mind.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    've heard people from (say, Finland) criticize the US for it's race issues, but they are coming from a homogeneous society where you might see one black guy per month. I think we've done pretty damned good.

    There is room for much improvement. We have that Hawthorne Police situation right now where the cops killed that black guy's dog resulting in open death threats to the HPD. The cops were there for a much larger situation and should have remained focused on their SWAT ops rather than break away and pick out one annoying guy (of a block full all video taping them) and when they did arrest him -- let him secure the animal..it was a rottweiler for crissakes! What did you think it was gonna do? This thing has swell into a huge mess when just a tad bit of common sense would have still resulted with him jail - but minus the national outrage of people seeing that poor dog being shot to death and suffering as he struggled thru pain - that incident just added generational years to on-going black/latino vs cop dynamic. Cops had better realize they need to do their part to reverse this trend and do it fast...death threats to cops is not a good sign of progress, some idiots are now taking shots at officers. You have the great story of a cop who paid for a black kid's snack at McDonalds in San Diego..walked outside and was killed in cold blood - he was a war vet! That's where things are head good cops getting taken out by cop haters or whomever when as the population grows we need more cops and preferably as many good ones as we can get...not idiots could not think to let the man secure his dog - then arrest him. California has to be the biggest animal rights state there is and it's gonna do nothing but grow..so that crap won't fly here...that one or those cops will feel more heat over the animal's death and anything that comes from dealing with it's owner.

    As for Finland...true and they are not alone. But they'll have to go thru some form of social transition as well, maybe not as much due to the climate.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    think we are in a delicate situation now where action is still required, but some of the more heavy-handed anti-racism methods used in the 70s (such as affirmative action) may actually be counterproductive as they cause resentment and ironically, more racist feelings. It is a delicate balance to be walked.

    Mostly true, but it was the anti-racism methods of that 70s that got things where they are today..people didn't just change. Those methods you attack is nothing more than attack on the very methods as means of a political tool to separate and continue dog whistle tactics. Without those measures you're criticizing we wouldn't be were we are today until about 2025 or later. An indepth study of race progress since the beginning will bear that out. The dominant culture has every intent to preserve itself.. the face of that culture itself is changing...so will it's direction.

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):

    Some places never were where America was.

    Exactly, The world is growing, even the most homogeneous societies will become less so. They cannot stop if from happening. So they'll have go thru some phase of what occurred here. Many African states will have go through the Stonewall battle from scratch because of idiot leaders trying use divisiveness and ignorance as a tool.

    BN747



    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8104 posts, RR: 26
    Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

    Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
    Not a western country.

    Sorry, what?? Really? How do you define a western country, out of curiosity?



    If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2294 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):
    If we we're being all honest in our discussion here , your opening line would have been to admit... you were the OP under your old username Cfalk. But since you're not going to... but I even in your advanced years, whether or not you admit it..there is still some change in attitude, I see it in your post here vs then.

    Pretty much everyone here knows my previous ID - I've never hidden it.

    By the way, I note that generally my posts stood up to the test of time. Obviously BO's desire to go into Pakistan was prescient but did not get a lot of airplay.

    Quote:
    In all the countries that his proposals have been tried, the results have nearly always brought high unemployment and/or a long-term stagnant economy. But he doesn't seem to mind that, as long as he gets elected (Most dems are like that these days, it seems).

    Which is what we've had for several years and no improvement is on the horizon - if anything things will get worse as interest rates finally start to rise.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):
    Many old politicians of the GOP persuasion share her sentiments - most younger Americans take great offense to take great offense to that along with many older Americans who long jettisoned such sympathies.

    If you asked her what her parents' political affiliation was when she was a kid and learned all those quaint words and the idea of an "old fashioned southern wedding" etc, I'll bet it started with a D. Just sayin...

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):
    There is room for much improvement.

    No question about that.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):
    Mostly true, but it was the anti-racism methods of that 70s that got things where they are today..people didn't just change. Those methods you attack is nothing more than attack on the very methods as means of a political tool to separate and continue dog whistle tactics.

    What affirmative action did was to force some manner of integration into the more institutionalized closed arenas, and get people to actually work and live next to minorities and by seeing them every day doing their job, that they are just as capable as anyone else. I think that point has been widely made.

    The downside to the practice however (and I have seen this first-hand) is that when a new hire comes aboard and is black, and we know that affirmative action mandates are being adhered to, there is an immediate suspicion among the work force that maybe this newbie is not qualified for the job and was hired to fill a quota. For a while, he is not entrusted with anything important. In the case I saw of this, over a period of a couple of months this new engineer overcame people's doubts by working extra hard. He is now a VP in the company where I work and is generally seen as a fine engineer and manager of his department. But he's told me over beers that he carried some resentment over how he was looked on with suspicion for a while until he could prove that he actually deserved to be there.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently onlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9897 posts, RR: 26
    Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2268 times:
    Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    Same goes for two women they say the B or the C word...but from some strange man? That's asking for trouble.

    I think you actually supported my point. When it's not automatically "asking for trouble" anymore, then we'll have reached a new level of relations.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    I would hope not, and yes, it would be wrong. You should not vote like that - it's no different than nepotism, where people get hired because of their family connections instead of their talents.

    I'm sorry, but there are unique issues that each group of people has to deal with. A woman has to deal with pregnancy and childbirth, for example, and it's understandable that they may want someone in office who has also had to deal with such things.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 7):
    Wrong, for the same reason. What does his/her being gay matter in regards to fiscal policy, terrorism, international affairs etc? Nothing.

    Might matter a whole lot to social issues, though, which are just as valid a reason for voting for a candidate.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15):
    By the way, I note that generally my posts stood up to the test of time.

    Except for the rather important fact that Obama won.  



    "Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2260 times:

    Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
    It means when everything stops being about race.

       Agreed. It is probably because the only two U.S. cities I have lived in white Americans are the minority (Miami, D.C) but I always see this race thing blown way out of proportion. I am sick of it being an issue. People are people that is what matters not what race they are. Yet it is a double standard so often. White man kills a black man, he may have been racist. Black man kills a white man it was just violence. And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..

    Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
    You need universities to not look at race on admissions,

    Bingo. Any special aid to be admitted to college should be based on financial circumstances not race.

    Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):

    Frankly, IDK why this case got picked up by the media

    A white man killed a black teenager and was not immediately arrested for it because the DA was not sure if charges could be sustained. It was only about race to start and many want to keep race in it. I heard the Martin family attorney on CNN last night talk about this trial being about race. It has NOTHING to do with race. That is the last thing we want in the court of law. Great attorney   



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
    Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    Yet it is a double standard so often. White man kills a black man, he may have been racist. Black man kills a white man it was just violence. And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..

      
    Yet Black on Black crime is almost 10 times higher than White on Black crime. It seems as though Black on Black crime is ok and get's a free pass. Also Hispanic on Black & vs-versa is a growing problem as well.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    Bingo. Any special aid to be admitted to college should be based on financial circumstances not race.

    With the growing number of goofy liberal arts courses and majors being offered at Universities today, I don't even think it even matters anymore. College degrees have become so devalued yet the cost to go will keep you in debt most of your adult life.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 12):
    Most other countries did not have such a mixed population either. It's easy not to be racist when your country is 99% homogeneous and seeing a black man on the streets is the occasional oddity. Look at all the backlash that's happening now in countries that have only recently (past couple of generations) started getting large numbers of immigrants from Africa and Asia.

    Very true and that is the case in a lot of eastern European countries such as Russia and the Ukraine. Skinhead, neo-Nazi attacks on foreigners are common and often times go unpunished.



    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    I heard the Martin family attorney on CNN last night talk about this trial being about race. It has NOTHING to do with race. That is the last thing we want in the court of law. Great attorney

    To her credit, as I recall, Martin's mother said the exact opposite recently, and that she deplored this story being made into a race issue.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
    Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

    Serious discussion about improving race relations is useless so long as the economic inequality in our society continues to grow by leaps and bounds.


    Live life to the fullest.
    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2217 times:

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 19):
    To her credit, as I recall, Martin's mother said the exact opposite recently, and that she deplored this story being made into a race issue.

    Good for her. That is good to hear. It is about a teenage who was killed. Whether or not it was justified is the only issue in this case.



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    but I always see this race thing blown way out of proportion. I am sick of it being an issue. People are people that is what matters not what race they are.

    Well that may be your simplistic view finishing up with wishful thinking that you always here children express.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    . And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..

    That's because you're poorly informed about the definition of racism versus prejudice and making the common error of just picking the term you think is applicable as opposed to the appropriate one.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
    You need universities to not look at race on admissions,

    Bingo. Any special aid to be admitted to college should be based on financial circumstances not race.

    Sure, special consideration of education for those with wealth .. too back for those without it. That makes sense in the ultimate greedy world.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
    A white man killed a black teenager and was not immediately arrested for it because the DA was not sure if charges could be sustained. It was only about race to start and many want to keep race in it. I heard the Martin family attorney on CNN last night talk about this trial being about race. It has NOTHING to do with race. That is the last thing we want in the court of law. Great attorney

    It really isn't about race to someone who lacks proper historical context that has led up to the moment. From your past photo (and I could be wrong) you appear to be of a latino/hispanic ethnicity - take that history in America, exchange it to read for years after slavery, latinos were hunted and lynched for whatever reason was deemed necessary across the country..many times with law enforcement assisting in the lynching which morphed into white police shootings of latinos with little to no justification and always a guaranteed acquittal of white juries - then recall all the false blame on random blacks -which works perfectly as a convenient excuse vis a vis Charles Stewart killing his wife using that excuse triggering the Boston Police to sweep black neighborhoods and arrested 100s of innocent black males, then Susan Smith pushing her car with her kids inside into a lake and blaming 'a black guy' resulting a similar round up in South Carolina and many many more before that.

    Name one case where a white male was accused of something and black police stormed a white community rounding up and harassing white males to get a suspect that does not exist. People like you don't want to fully apply the historical standard to themselves also find themselves not liking it when it's done to them..then you suddenly have an appreciation of 'historical context'. Educate yourself before it's too late because on your current trajectory with such a patchwork belief that you know what's going on...will indeed return to haunt you.

    Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
    Yet Black on Black crime is almost 10 times higher than White on Black crime. It seems as though Black on Black crime is ok and get's a free pass. Also Hispanic on Black & vs-versa is a growing problem as well.

    The dominant white culture makes the decision here to let them sort it out, because their intervention beyond the pale could trigger an explosive incident by accident. You don't see the police stopping Vietnamese on vietnamese crimes of Cambodian gangs crime waves on their people any more than you see the cops intervening in Russian mobster activity..it's a cultural problem that does need to be addressed, but few if any police departments are equipped to handle it. I personally am not distraught about black on black crime any more than I am on white on white crime...because crime exist in each corner. The gun deaths of black on black crime are largely gang-related crimes.. it's not angry 9-5 black citizen killing next door 9-5 neighbor. latino gangs are killing each other just like other gangs - the effort to end that must come from within - it is just too much to ask or expect anyone else to step in and solve it.

    Quoting avek00 (Reply 20):
    Serious discussion about improving race relations is useless so long as the economic inequality in our society continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

    Sad....but the honest truth. As people get more and more desperate..any tool will do.

    BN747



    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13547 posts, RR: 62
    Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2167 times:
    Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):. And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..
    That's because you're poorly informed about the definition of racism versus prejudice and making the common error of just picking the term you think is applicable as opposed to the appropriate one.

      

    Holier-than-thou "I'm smarter than you are" comments like this are unnecessary. You turn people off with that and solve nothing.

    Start being a bit more humble and not acting like all others are intellectually inferior to you and you're more likely to have others take your views seriously.

    [Edited 2013-07-09 13:25:36]


    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
    User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8104 posts, RR: 26
    Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

    Quoting avek00 (Reply 20):
    Serious discussion about improving race relations is useless so long as the economic inequality in our society continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

    This is the logical and pragmatic view too many people are afraid to acknowledge.



    If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
    User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1211 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2122 times:

    This is a genuine question, but one that people typically ignore or pretend they did not see:

    I think the classical definition of 'race' is one of the three major races, namely: Caucasian, Oriental, and Black.

    Hispanics are a subset of one of those races. You can be a "White" Hispanic, a "Black" Hispanic, or (quite rarely) an "Oriental" Hispanic.

    So... when it comes to shipping illegals out of the U.S., as one posted alluded to that being racism, I don't think that is racism. If anything, it is xenophobia.

    People always give me a weird look when I say that - but going by the definitions I was taught, I'm correct. All in all, more nitpicking than anything else.



    The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
    User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2061 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2095 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Sure, special consideration of education for those with wealth .. too back for those without it. That makes sense in the ultimate greedy world.

    Don't know how you missed it but most ordinary people would be able to tell he's saying give advantage to those with financial disadvantage. Not based on race. A poor white male gets advantages that a rich black female doesn't get. Perfectly reasonable. Malia Obama doesn't need help getting into college while Cletus who grew up in a trailer park does.


    Wealth matters so much more than gender, sexuality, country of origin or race in practically everything; focusing discrimination on those factors while completely ignoring the effects of wealth blinds us all to the realities and gives economic inequality a pass because 'its the other things that matter'.


    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2073 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Well that may be your simplistic view finishing up with wishful thinking that you always here children express.

    It may be simplistic but its what I believe. Again I have only lived in cities and in times where racism is not a big issue and whites are the minorities.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    That's because you're poorly informed about the definition of racism versus prejudice and making the common error of just picking the term you think is applicable as opposed to the appropriate one.

    Ok so Hispanics can be prejudice to whites and blacks can be racist to whites? Is that point you are making? Either way I think many will agree that when it comes to the media it seems that only Whites can be the ones acting racist or being prejudice to others.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    It really isn't about race to someone who lacks proper historical context that has led up to the moment. From your past photo (and I could be wrong) you appear to be of a latino/hispanic ethnicity - take that history in America,
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    People like you don't want to fully apply the historical standard to themselves also find themselves not liking it when it's done to them..then you suddenly have an appreciation of 'historical context'. Educate yourself before it's too late because on your current trajectory with such a patchwork belief that you know what's going on...will indeed return to haunt you.

    You are correct about the background, at least half right. But Haunt me? What?
    I understand different races and ethnicities have had problems in the past. My grandparents on one side of the family are concentration camp survivors. I am not going to hold anything against Germans or Germany now. The past is the past. I am living in the present and future. This nation has come a long way from where it was just 30-50 years ago and of course it has more to go. I think the less we make it an actual issue and the more we just see each other as people the better it is. There will always be racist people. There is nothing anyone can do that about.

    Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
    Holier-than-thou "I'm smarter than you are" comments like this are unnecessary. You turn people off with that and solve nothing.

    Start being a bit more humble and not acting like all others are intellectually inferior to you and you're more likely to have others take your views seriously.

    Agreed. It's classless and very off putting and does not take people far. Have met so many people like that in Law School and lets just say they are not the ones doing the best whether socially, academically, networking or all three.

    Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 25):
    So... when it comes to shipping illegals out of the U.S., as one posted alluded to that being racism, I don't think that is racism

    Certainly not racism.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Sure, special consideration of education for those with wealth .. too back for those without it. That makes sense in the ultimate greedy world.

    What? You are going down to that level. People with money have an ADVANTAGE. They can afford SAT tutors, they can go to better private schools. People with economic problems deserve help getting into school. Only you would say that I meant for rich people to get help.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    From Queen Elizabeth expelling blacks from the country the way the US is shipping out 'brown' illegals.

    Wow. You know nothing about Immigration Enforcement in the U.S. if this is what you believe. Nothing.



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
    Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Well that may be your simplistic view finishing up with wishful thinking that you always here children express.

    It may be simplistic but its what I believe. Again I have only lived in cities and in times where racism is not a big issue and whites are the minorities.

    I'm with you, I was very fortunate to grow up in a place where racism was extremely rare. Yes, I'm a white and the majority was white, but I have posed the question to some of my minority friends who lived where I was from and they agreed racism was rare. Going back to what another poster said, most the "racism" I heard was in good jest... light hearted humor and no one thought anything of it.

    Even playing basketball with a black family (where I was the only white) they poked fun at my lack of basketball skills and basically, I fit the white stereotype quite well. Thought nothing of it.

    So do not worry, flymia, you are not childish or whatever   Some posters just need to realize that their experiences are not all inclusive, even if they've been on Earth longer, lived more/different places than you, or have talked to different people.



    Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
    Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2051 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    The gun deaths of black on black crime are largely gang-related crimes..

    Oh really?
    Explain the death of Derrion Albert who was an honor student that was beaten to death with splintered railroad ties. Explain the death of Ernest Hart who was stabbed to death in his own house at a family dinner party. Not sure why you're singling guns out and gang members.
    None of these were gang related and were from working 9-5 families.



    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
    Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2045 times:

    Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
    Oh really?
    Explain the death of Derrion Albert who was an honor student that was beaten to death with splintered railroad ties. Explain the death of Ernest Hart who was stabbed to death in his own house at a family dinner party. Not sure why you're singling guns out and gang members.
    None of these were gang related and were from working 9-5 families.

    To be fair, he did say "largely," and I think there is a lot of data to back up what he said though he probably should show some data if his point is refuted. And yeah, I did just defend BN747's point, what is this world coming to?  



    Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
    User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39820 posts, RR: 74
    Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2039 times:

    Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 30):
    To be fair, he did say "largely," and I think there is a lot of data to back up what he said though he probably should show some data if his point is refuted.

    Would be interesting to see. I know the number of deaths from knives, hammers and very high as well.



    Bring back the Concorde
    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

    Quoting Superfly (Reply 31):
    Would be interesting to see. I know the number of deaths from knives, hammers and very high as well.

    I am sure a decent portion of black on black crime is gang related but it would surprise me if it is over 50%. Anyway here is an interesting chart from the FBI: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...les/expanded-homicide-data-table-6

    So Black people murder white people more often than White people murder Black people even though Whites commit more murders. Also many of the whites in this context would also be Hispanics. But when doing it by percentage of murders the black on white is 14% of white murders while white on black crime is 7% of black murders.

    It is obvious. Black communities have a serious violent crime problem. Why? Education, Economic problems and so many black children grow up without father role models. These are the major issues which need to be tackled. Improve education, that improves economic problems which would then improve the lack of father role models in young black men's lives.

    [Edited 2013-07-10 07:05:32]


    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):

    Holier-than-thou "I'm smarter than you are" comments like this are unnecessary. You turn people off with that and solve nothing.

    Start being a bit more humble and not acting like all others are intellectually inferior to you and you're more likely to have others take your views seriously.

    How on earth are you going to lecture me about 'holier than thou' and condescending tons when all one needs to do is look at almost every post from you towards me? Rarely is it respectful. And if you want to keep score, take note of how many you initiated.

    And just who is it that YOU think I'm trying to get .. to take me seriously? The conservative neo-con members? They don't even want to hear this stuff and aren't comfortable discussing it in depth..because they have no depth on the subject.

    "I'm smarter than you are" .."intellectually inferior to you" ... the only thing you left out is the 'you think you're better than me don't you' line from every bar fight tv/movie.

    This subject is something I know a lot about, I've read books on the subject (White Law, Black Resistance - is strongly recommended), I've seen everything from Birth of a Nation to Malcolm X (every race related film) , I visit Stormfront and other racist sites, I've my own experiences, I make it an actual habit to observe how others are treated by others on a consistent basis.. it's just basis human interaction on multiple levels. Race behavior observation is no more abnormal than observing how women behave, how uber macho NFL, NBA men behave, effeminate men (who may or may not be gay) behave, how lesbians behave, how good cops behave versus bad cops behave. If you're a airport spotters..you mentally design a means to quickly size up whether the approaching security guy or cop is friendly in his attitude or overtly aggressive. You react in kind based on the information processed from previous encounters that over time get sharper and sharper..not with increasing inaccuracies.

    For example, just looking at the Zimmerman Trial right now, the Prosecution's John Guy, the 'Tom Cruise like clone' do you notice his mannerisms? His confidence comes from his looks, so much so he flaunts standard courtroom protocols..he approaches the witness without asking the judge and does it boldly and with conviction. The others always..with out except ask the Judge's permission to approach the witness. He acts the way he does based on how people respond to him and has mastered it (probably at a very young age). In Hollywood and given what I do, his characteristics are 100% anticipated because the Biz is built on 'trading on looks' and it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure people out by simply observing them and those interacting with them and come to a reason conclusion on what the outcome will be or what they were thinking.

    I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm sure you're smarter at it than I am...and I would not take the least bit offense at you being smarter at the subject over me..and here you are spinning out because I can discuss this subject from virtually ever angle. Be nicer? Give nice..and you get nice. Give 'matter-of-uninformed ignorance'... you'll get the cold hard facts. You act like you know me personally to attempt to control my demeanor..you do not and it is not your place no more than it is mine to control yours (which I never have)...where does this come from?

    Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 24):
    Serious discussion about improving race relations is useless so long as the economic inequality in our society continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

    This is the logical and pragmatic view too many people are afraid to acknowledge.

      

    Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 25):

    So... when it comes to shipping illegals out of the U.S., as one posted alluded to that being racism, I don't think that is racism. If anything, it is xenophobia.

    Were that true, we'd be rounding up illegal Irish, Australians, Kiwis, etc... we are not doing that.

    Quoting QFA380 (Reply 26):
    Don't know how you missed it but most ordinary people would be able to tell he's saying give advantage to those with financial disadvantage.

    I did not get that... if so I agree. But the extreme claim that Malia Obama could qualify for academic financial aid because here skin color qualifies...and using that as the basis to negate 'raced-based considerations' is erroneous because, the social handicaps where people discrimination if given the chance is still quite prevalent in certain areas of the country. Example, many whites in the Los Angeles area will rent and apartment in Beverly Hills, list that as their address in order to enroll their kids at Beverly Hills High and the other schools...seems like nothing, but it is a huge boost on your resume let alone the connections (potential life-long) you'd make..it's competition. Blacks, Latinos can;t do that with the same ease because 1- they are rarely given the apartment in the 1st place (lawsuits and claims back it up), secondly the schools have been known to physically go check on the actual resident occupancy - I saw this thru a latino friend who tried it and I know of three white families who are pulling it off. It's not my place to condemn any of the individuals (except the school admin) because as I expand from the school board beyond to city agencies up to the federal level...people are gaming the system in such overwhelming numbers...it's like going out to the beach and trying to stop a 7 foot wave from curling...you can't.

    My point is, white privilege and white male is still a huge advantage in a vast number of circles, so allowing for black, latino and female candidates extra-consideration in such a valid position to achieve a better balance in society and is the best shot at achieving as close to financial equality than any plan anyone has ever put forth.

    Women won't turn down being considered in an 'exception' capacity to gain traction in a school or job, why should any minority. The typical GOP/conservative response is 'it should be based solely on merit'... when has anything about advancement been about merit. Many of you have either helped a friend, family member, girlfriend, wife, etc get a position (many have admitted) and many of you have been the benefactor of it...that's called nepotism. It's a fact of life.

    When I first arrived in this town, I HATED how Hollywood played favorites, giving roles jobs to people they knew and not to the struggling actor/actress, Cinematographer/DP, grip, casting or make up artist to the same people every single time. I was naive. When it is your 1, 2 or 5 million (or larger) bucks invested in this film.. you want to KNOW the reliability percentages of performance of every single person involved - especially in business (like Music Biz) awash in coke-heads, drug addicts, sex fiends and people who live on the edge. Now I'm not knocking any of those extra-curricula activities because some of each work right beside many you... you just aren't aware of it. But if it's my personal investment - I'm going with 'who I know' and can rely on, there's much too little wiggle room for 'do overs'.

    On the other hand, when the SCOTUS knocked out Title Four of the Voting Rights Act..what did the Republicans in control do? They immediately - that very day - went to work in enacting 'items' they see as giving them an advantage to secure certain election outcomes or at least better their chances at creating some permanence. And none of that will assist minority voters it is designed to whittle down their participation in effect nullifying them. North Carolina, got rid of Motor voter, Sunday voting, Early voting and more is sure to come.

    Virginia Gov. McDonnell, brazenly taking gifts left and right.

    When left to their own devices people WILL NOT do the right thing. That's why laws are instilled to balance out the greed and natural selfishness where money and power are involved.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Well that may be your simplistic view finishing up with wishful thinking that you always here children express.

    It may be simplistic but its what I believe. Again I have only lived in cities and in times where racism is not a big issue and whites are the minorities.

    And Paula Deen believes she has the right to 'believe there's nothing wrong in having an all black waiting staff at all weddings for perfection because it reminds her of the best of times...my point there is, yes, you are indeed in entitled to your beliefs. But if you put them out there - they are subject to scrutiny, criticism (and do I endure that here..but I soldier on and back it up). But also your beliefs in this case is based on limited experience in some areas.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    That's because you're poorly informed about the definition of racism versus prejudice and making the common error of just picking the term you think is applicable as opposed to the appropriate one.

    Ok so Hispanics can be prejudice to whites and blacks can be racist to whites? Is that point you are making?

    No.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    ither way I think many will agree that when it comes to the media it seems that only Whites can be the ones acting racist or being prejudice to others.

    You need to first distinguish the difference between 'racism' and prejudice'.. you randomly just sling terms without understanding the meanings. It's like a news reporter calling 'the ramp'.. the runway.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    It really isn't about race to someone who lacks proper historical context that has led up to the moment. From your past photo (and I could be wrong) you appear to be of a latino/hispanic ethnicity - take that history in America,
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    People like you don't want to fully apply the historical standard to themselves also find themselves not liking it when it's done to them..then you suddenly have an appreciation of 'historical context'. Educate yourself before it's too late because on your current trajectory with such a patchwork belief that you know what's going on...will indeed return to haunt you.

    You are correct about the background, at least half right. But Haunt me? What?

    What that means is .. as America (to the peril of the Sean Hannity's and Rush Limbaughs of the world) .. is that America is becoming less white and getting browner by the day. Regardless of where you are now, most of your life lies ahead of you..meaning it's gonna be very different 20 years from now. and if your understanding of 'the race/prejudice paradigm' does not expand.. you're gonna come up short at the most inopportune time if you are career/business/goal oriented. The inability to read correctly what's happening around you is what will haunt you because you very may blow a costly situation simply due to the fact of poor or no understanding. That's how. It seems this advancing society is getting sharper and sharper at reading or scaling people beyond superficial observations - what they say and how they say it...it betrays your thoughts without you even being aware of it.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    I understand different races and ethnicities have had problems in the past. My grandparents on one side of the family are concentration camp survivors. I am not going to hold anything against Germans or Germany now. The past is the past. I am living in the present and future. This nation has come a long way from where it was just 30-50 years ago and of course it has more to go. I think the less we make it an actual issue and the more we just see each other as people the better it is. There will always be racist people. There is nothing anyone can do that about.
    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 25):
    So... when it comes to shipping illegals out of the U.S., as one posted alluded to that being racism, I don't think that is racism

    Certainly not racism.

    See what I mean..quick to assuage your feelings versus deeper evaluation or consideration.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Sure, special consideration of education for those with wealth .. too back for those without it. That makes sense in the ultimate greedy world.

    What? You are going down to that level. People with money have an ADVANTAGE. They can afford SAT tutors, they can go to better private schools. People with economic problems deserve help getting into school. Only you would say that I meant for rich people to get help.

    Yes, I misunderstood your meaning..explained above.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    From Queen Elizabeth expelling blacks from the country the way the US is shipping out 'brown' illegals.

    Wow. You know nothing about Immigration Enforcement in the U.S. if this is what you believe. Nothing.

    I know what exactly what Immigration Enforcement is, a very good Persian friend of mine is one of the best Immigration attorneys in LA. What is it exactly you think I don't get?

    Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    The gun deaths of black on black crime are largely gang-related crimes..

    Oh really?

    Just have a look at this provide by..

    Quoting flymia (Reply 32):

    I am sure a decent portion of black on black crime is gang related but it would surprise me if it is over 50%. Anyway here is an interesting chart from the FBI: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...ble-6
    Quoting flymia (Reply 32):
    So Black people murder white people more often than White people murder Black people even though Whites commit more murders

    And you'd be surprised at how the simple math does say 'Whites commit more murders'.. and black are the one's to fear and that's why most of the jails are with them. You hear it all the time regardless of the fact that most are incarcerated on ridiculous minor drug possession charges.

    If the news chanted 'Whites commit more murders' every hour on the hour as they have about 'black crime'..the perception of people would be greatly effected.

    And if the constantly chanted that 'White Wall Streeters' are solely responsible for always destroying the nations economy..would they be wrong? But that's where the power resides so no such chants will ever surface..although everyone knows it. Wall Streets misbehaving is what makes this...

    Quoting flymia (Reply 32):
    So Black people murder white people more often than White people murder Black people even though Whites commit more murders. Also many of the whites in this context would also be Hispanics. But when doing it by percentage of murders the black on white is 14% of white murders while white on black crime is 7% of black murders.
    Quoting avek00 (Reply 20):
    improving race relations is useless so long as the economic inequality in our society continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

    ..it guarantees that finality.

    Crime and everything else falls prey to their activities at the most basic and fundamental level of society.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 32):
    But when doing it by percentage of murders the black on white is 14% of white murders while white on black crime is 7% of black murders.

    Would you be more comfortable if it were 'the black on white is 7% of white murders while white on black crime is 14% of black murders? Look at the actual numbers (from your graph).. 448 whites killed by black assailants and 193 blacks killed by whites.

    Now remember, white-hispanics & non-white hispanics are included in the white figures, so both equations are nowhere near accurate.

    But the numbers are so miniscule on the scale of "Across North America, close to 4000 perfectly healthy people annually die from choking on food. In fact, food-choking kills more people than firearms or airplane accidents"

    http://www.stabroeknews.com/2010/opi...iliar-with-the-heimlich-manoeuvre/

    But to hear the Rush/Hannity Panic crew tell it blacks are running rampant killing whites - clearly, intentionally whipping up false fears. And millions believe them.

    I heard many you (including YOU) scream out ;why is it always when a black guy is killed by a white guy..there's a national trial. But when a white guy is killed by a black guy there is ZERO exposure!

    Well if that's true we should have 448 trials going on live tv per annum.

    What you choose ask yourself is what is the context? Ziimmerman's case..very obvious! You what appears to be a seemingly innocent kid gunned down by a neighborhood watch guy. A history of black innocents gunned down by the color of authority dates back to the 1st militia in America.

    How long is the trail of story Black Law men killing innocent white kids, men and women - look that stat up and tell us.

    The former has so much history behind it that just like your crime stat chart.. if a certain stat is repeated enough.. it becomes fact and people believe it all to be true.

    It is exactly why Charles Smith and Susan Smith did what they did..blame it on a black guy..because in many white minds 'black guy is automatically bad and guilty' .. and the law played into each charge as if that were true. When the white guy can be believed as 'bad and guilty' as the black guy in those particular minds...equality in what each race thinks about the other has reached balance.

    But personally, I think the other will most likely happen, the diminishing of 'the ever black is bad and guilty' belief is falling to the wayside. But still decades away.

    BN747

    [Edited 2013-07-10 11:37:45]


    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1910 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 33):
    I know what exactly what Immigration Enforcement is, a very good Persian friend of mine is one of the best Immigration attorneys in LA. What is it exactly you think I don't get?

    Care to elaborate on how our immigration system is racist? I jut don't see how it is racist. I spent a year of law school working at DHS I.C.E. trial attorneys. Handling my own deportation cases and my girlfriend is currently an Immigration Attorney. I fail to see how race is involved in the immigration system. Break the law, here in the U.S. illegally, you go into immigration proceedings.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 32):
    You hear it all the time regardless of the fact that most are incarcerated on ridiculous minor drug possession charges.

    Agreed.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 33):

    I heard many you (including YOU) scream out ;why is it always when a black guy is killed by a white guy..there's a national trial. But when a white guy is killed by a black guy there is ZERO exposure!

    Well if that's true we should have 448 trials going on live tv per annum

    You mixed up the numbers. It would be 193 with what you are saying That is besides the point let me clarify what I mean by that. I don't mean every time a white person murders a black man it is on the news. Just like every time a black man kills a white man it is not on tv.

    There are three main reasons Zimmerman case is a national story.
    Least important is the stand your ground law is fairly controversial
    Then there is the issue of Zimmerman not being arrested right away because the police and DA were not sure charges could be sustained. It is a complicated case no matter who's side you believe. But the biggest issue which made this case national news is the racial element and I don't think many dispute this. If Zimmerman were Black this would not have been such a big story. Why? Because if Zimmerman were black or if Trayvon was White you would not have seen Jesse Jackson talking about this, you would not have seen protest or Lebron James putting out a tweet. President Obama would have never have even been aware of this case. And IMO the case would have been handled properly and the DA might not have tried to over charge Zimmerman. That is the point I am making. The news needs to put on TV what sells, what is controversial. Race is controversial. Clearly.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 33):

    What that means is .. as America (to the peril of the Sean Hannity's and Rush Limbaughs of the world) .. is that America is becoming less white and getting browner by the day. Regardless of where you are now, most of your life lies ahead of you..meaning it's gonna be very different 20 years from now. and if your understanding of 'the race/prejudice paradigm' does not expand.. you're gonna come up short at the most inopportune time if you are career/business/goal oriented.

    Clearly America is become more diverse. But how does never having to personally deal with racism making me inexperienced in the matter make me more likely to miss out on "career/business/goal oriented" goals?

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 33):
    It is exactly why Charles Smith and Susan Smith did what they did..blame it on a black guy..because in many white minds 'black guy is automatically bad and guilty'

    And that is not the right way to think but there will always be people out there who believe this. The world can never be perfect.



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 960 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

    I think it, hopefully, will go the way sexism will go...we are the sum of our conditioning. As for the racist jokes part...when nobody gets the joke??? I think a "bias" will always be there, as it is with anything..I like green more than red....guess we will have to wait a few generations to really see, but, it HAS gotten better.


    Carpe Pices
    User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13547 posts, RR: 62
    Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1884 times:
    Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 33):
    Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
    Holier-than-thou "I'm smarter than you are" comments like this are unnecessary. You turn people off with that and solve nothing.

    Start being a bit more humble and not acting like all others are intellectually inferior to you and you're more likely to have others take your views seriously.
    How on earth are you going to lecture me about 'holier than thou' and condescending tons when all one needs to do is look at almost every post from you towards me?

    Y'know, this whole thread was started based on a fresh start and open-minded discussion. As I said at the outset:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):
    This is meant to be a serious discussion, so please leave any sarcastic commentary or race-baiting out.

    You even went as far as to applaud that, albeit having reservations about how effective it would be:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 4):
    Quoting EA CO AS (Thread starter):This is meant to be a serious discussion, so please leave any sarcastic commentary or race-baiting out.

    I appreciate that statement most, how well it works - well it won't. I know this place far to well, the super silly just can't resist themselves.

    Little did I know that you yourself would be the one who couldn't resist being sarcastic or just plain silly.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 33):
    And just who is it that YOU think I'm trying to get .. to take me seriously? The conservative neo-con members? They don't even want to hear this stuff and aren't comfortable discussing it in depth..because they have no depth on the subject.

    So in other words, you're here to lecture, not inform. Got it. I was actually looking forward to a substantive, specific discussion from your perspective on what you believe would improve race relations in this nation. I'll just be ignoring you from now on since you clearly have no interest in persuading people to understand your perspective; you're just here to tell everyone how much more experience you have, how we couldn't possibly fathom what you're talking about, and implying that we're all somehow inferior to you as a result.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 33):
    I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm sure you're smarter at it than I am...and I would not take the least bit offense at you being smarter at the subject over me..and here you are spinning out because I can discuss this subject from virtually ever angle

    There are a number of subjects I have expertise on, however when explaining things to those who lack my level of expertise I make a point of doing so without making the person I'm speaking with feel like they're inferior for not knowing what I know, and I certainly never go out of my way to insult them in the process.

    And yes, your reply to flymia below WAS insulting. As you appeared to intend for it to be.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Quoting flymia (Reply 17):. And I never understood the thing with the media and the perception across the country I get that its only White vs. Minorities. Like Hispanics can't be racist to Whites or Blacks racist to Hispanics etc..
    That's because you're poorly informed about the definition of racism versus prejudice and making the common error of just picking the term you think is applicable as opposed to the appropriate one.

    Mods, feel free to lock this thread. BN747 couldn't help himself and turned it into something It wasn't supposed to be.



    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

    Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36):
    I was actually looking forward to a substantive, specific discussion from your perspective on what you believe would improve race relations in this nation.

    No you weren't .. look at your sole input since opening the thread... coming right me for being a bit gruff with flymia. That's it! You haven't discussed a single thing.

    Flymia is a grown man, he can handle himself, he sure has in any post I've read of his. Just like you have never resisted the chance attempt to berate me because you think I should not have a stinging tone on anything. Do you do that to everyone or just me..because I'm beginning to sense something out of whack here.

    If you're going discuss in a thread you started...then participate, don't just sit on the fence and wait for a opportunity to attack me because you don't approve of my tone. That's pretty weak.

    BN747



    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8824 posts, RR: 24
    Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 37):
    Flymia is a grown man, he can handle himself, he sure has in any post I've read of his. Just like you have never resisted the chance attempt to berate me because you think I should not have a stinging tone on anything. Do you do that to everyone or just me..because I'm beginning to sense something out of whack here.

    He could handle it if he cared to, but probably doesn't. Same with me and with several other people on this board I have corresponded with - It is useless to argue with you. You are so so sure of your position, and dripping with contempt against anyone who disagrees with you. So, we don't bother trying.



    Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 38):
    You are so so sure of your position, and dripping with contempt against anyone who disagrees with you.

    There are plenty of people out there like that. It is off putting much of the time. Like you said just ignore those opinions and move on.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 38):
    He could handle it if he cared to, but probably doesn't.

    Sometimes its worth it sometimes its not. There are certain parts of this discussion which just wont be worth it. When people have opposite opinions so be it. Then it just becomes a back and forth argument of the same lines over and over again. No use in that. No learning in that.

    Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36):

    And yes, your reply to flymia below WAS insulting. As you appeared to intend for it to be.

    Agreed it was. Does BN747 know more on the subject than me. It seems like he does. Thankfully it is an issue I have little personal experience with. Very few of the people I know that are my age have personal experience with it. This is a good thing and shows the progress. Does living in Miami and D.C. help, yes. But like I stated earlier the way he handled it was not the best of ways. However as BN747 also stated I can handle it. Been there done that...
    I appreciate it though.

    BN747: I get your points. Do I agree with much of it. Not really. And we can agree on disagreeing.
    But I am interested in knowing why you see Immigration Enforcement as racist and this being something I have more experience in than almost anyone else.



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1861 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 39):
    . Thankfully it is an issue I have little personal experience with.

    That's not something to wear as and of honor.. I grew up abroad, never living anywhere for more than two years but a year on average anywhere, What all that movement does is expose a young mind to perspectives far far beyond what my cousins would ever get living in the same city their entire lives. Be it LA or NY, people who've never really lived abroad or travelled abroad can be very nice people..but also very 'closed minded' sorta speak on global perspectives..like it not, the planet has gone global.. these borders and boundaries... they're days are numbered, the evolution of corporations dictate it and prove it - they run the politicians who run the world.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 39):
    BN747: I get your points. Do I agree with much of it. Not really. And we can agree on disagreeing.
    But I am interested in knowing why you see Immigration Enforcement as racist and this being something I have more experience in than almost anyone else.

    Because the whole immigration 'get 'em out' mentality was born out of the Sep. 11th event. I saw up close what that did to ethnic arabs here in LA or anyone looking like them. My Atty bud swamped me with stories of peoples; lives thrown into complete upheaval for offenses as simple a sparking tickets (being deported that is). A personal story told her before of a 'brown skin' friend selected on train..and selected for deportation - but my atty friend short circuited that (after 5 years) - your stance and those like you is - they're here illegally throw them out.

    Have you any idea how many 'wealthy people' buy their way into legal status after being here illegally?

    After the Arab sweep, the conservative factions turned on the illegal browns from the South (of the border) and whipped up a fever (they're taking everything from us).

    Have any idea how many Canadians live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Brits live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Frenchmen live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Germans live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Irish live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Italians live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Russians live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Armenians live here illegally?

    Here in California aside from the obvious (latinos), we're swamped with illegal Aussies and Kiwis.. but as you know, they and the list above.. have nothing to worry about, they won't be selected on a train or on a police stop (if they've driver's silence) simply because of the color of their skin. All of the above - because of the color of their skins will not endure the fear that the browns are doing. If Canada during slavery was let's say 90% Black today...go ahead and kid yourself and say that would not be talking 'building a wall on the northern boarder too'...you're delusional if think we would not.

    The current immigration policies are indeed slanted toward aggressive informant towards Latinos. ...and therefore racist in it's actions and pursues.

    If I saw the ALL of above groups being rounded up, pulled over for suspicion of illegal entry by Sheriff Joe.. than I'd have to back off. But no one can claim 'it's all equal'. It is not.

    I'm actually shocked you aren't aware of this or in denial it is not happening.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 38):
    Same with me and with several other people on this board I have corresponded with - It is useless to argue with you.

    That's nice..you have your own little clique of like-minded thinkers to trade notes with about members (or in this case member) you dislike.. kinda like high school, well didn't bother me then and I've certainly outgrown cliquish behavior long ago. But to honest, I'm delighted I'm spoken about (although negatively) off screen now... Iif only it amounted to anything. That whole other website is loaded with the super extreme haters..some in your circle I'm sure are members there. The floor here is discussing or asking questions about race.. something you like to show some knowledge of..


    BN747

    [Edited 2013-07-10 15:56:58]


    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1813 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    That's not something to wear as and of honor..

    Where did I say it is a badge of honor? I think most people would say that it is a good thing that they have had not had to deal with much racism or prejudice in their life, no?

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    . Be it LA or NY, people who've never really lived abroad or travelled abroad can be very nice people..but also very 'closed minded' sorta speak on global perspectives..like it not, the planet has gone global

    Ok so now are you calling me closed minded? Saying that its bad that I only have lived in two of the most international and diverse and opened minded cities in North America? And then are you assuming I don't travel much? I mean where does this stuff come from. I have been to 6 continents, lived in Barcelona Spain for five months. Studied freaking international affairs and geography. You just assume I am "'closed minded' sorta speak on global perspectives" ? That is what I am getting from your comments.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    your stance and those like you is - they're here illegally throw them out.

    Do you not read what I say? I said they go into Immigration Proceedings. Where did I say kick them out? I have personally made the decision to not prosecute certain immigration cases even though the law fully told us we could make our case to have them deported. We put them in proceedings and let the law be the law. We have laws for a reason no?
    FYI: I am for immigration reform. Again you just making assumptions out of no where.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    Have any idea how many Canadians live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Brits live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Frenchmen live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Germans live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Irish live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Italians live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Russians live here illegally?
    Have any idea how many Armenians live here illegally?

    Put all those people together and you still don't get close to the amount of Hispanics here illegally. Look up the DACA stats and tell me that we have a serious problem with those groups you listed above. None of those nationalities even show up. Really, using DACA as a basis Mexicans far out number any other group. Makes perfect sense that they do. They do border us. But trust me the numbers for those groups are not high. They are here. But they are not high.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    If I saw the ALL of above groups being rounded up, pulled over for suspicion of illegal entry by Sheriff Joe.. than I'd have to back off. But no one can claim 'it's all equal'. It is not.

    The vast majority. And I mean vast majority of immigrants who are deported are criminals. Again you have stories I have real cases. I can't count on one hand the amount of people I have seen in immigration court who at some point or another were not in trouble with law enforcement who are actually deported.
    At my girlfriend's firm 90% of her clients are not criminals. And guess what? I will say 70%-80% of them are granted legal status in this Country.
    Anyway this is for another thread when reform gets nearer which I hope it does.

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 38):
    He could handle it if he cared to, but probably doesn't.

    Should have just taken your advice.



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1792 times:

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 38):
    Same with me and with several other people on this board I have corresponded with - It is useless to argue with you.
    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    That's not something to wear as and of honor..

    Where did I say it is a badge of honor? I think most people would say that it is a good thing that they have had not had to deal with much racism or prejudice in their life, no?

    I mistook your meaning as in saying ' I've happy you haven't had much racial interaction/exposure and/or history of experience in 'exposure to unjust acts'. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    . Be it LA or NY, people who've never really lived abroad or travelled abroad can be very nice people..but also very 'closed minded' sorta speak on global perspectives..like it not, the planet has gone global

    Ok so now are you calling me closed minded?

    Not at all, I was basically talking about the majority of Americans who have never used or requested a passport. Where am I talking about you?

    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    your stance and those like you is - they're here illegally throw them out.

    Do you not read what I say? ?

    Do YOU listen to what you say..isn't this you asking me...

    Quoting flymia (Reply 39):
    But I am interested in knowing why you see Immigration Enforcement as racist

    That is you correct?

    I just laid out a very good case as to Enforcement why is indeed racist.

    One need only to look at what's been going on with laws in Mississippi and Arizona.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):

    Put all those people together and you still don't get close to the amount of Hispanics here illegally.

    And that's the problem correct? They're not Australians, not Brits, they're Hispanics and they're taken over!!! Nevermind the others..just stop those damn Hispanics!!! Somebody Do Something!

    ..if only the Native American had Immigration Enforcement...

    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
    Again you just making assumptions out of no where.

    Where?

    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
    Again you have stories I have real cases.

    You have stories that resulted into cases, I have stories of real cases...what's the difference? I'd have cases too if I were and Immigration Lawyer. And all cases in Florida don't match all cases being prosecuted in California..it's just not that uniformed.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
    I can't count on one hand the amount of people I have seen in immigration court who at some point or another were not in trouble with law enforcement who are actually deported.

    I could give you my Imm. Atty friends number so that you can question the cases of absurdity on his desk.. but that's be a waste of his valuable time to settle and 'internet dispute'...

    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
    And guess what? I will say 70%-80% of them are granted legal status in this Country.

    That's great, but I'm certain that IS NOT the case across the board (all 50 states).

    Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 38):
    He could handle it if he cared to, but probably doesn't.

    Should have just taken your advice.

    Yep, listen to the guy that came in here screaming ...

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
    Obama Has Lost The Race (by Cfalk Aug 3 2007 in Non Aviation)

    ...yep, has his pulse on 'what's really going on' in the world.

    BN747

    [Edited 2013-07-10 19:26:47]

    [Edited 2013-07-10 19:29:16]


    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1782 times:

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):

    Do YOU listen to what you say..isn't this you asking me...
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):
    That is you correct?

    I just laid out a very good case as to Enforcement why is indeed racist.

    One need only to look at what's been going on with laws in Mississippi and Arizona.

    That is not what I am pointing to. You did give me your reasons you believe the system is racist. You then said

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
    your stance and those like you is - they're here illegally throw them out.

    That is not my stance. I did not say throw them out. I said they deserve their day in court.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):
    And that's the problem correct? They're not Australians, not Brits, they're Hispanics and they're taken over!!! Nevermind the others..just stop those damn Hispanics!!! Somebody Do Something!

    That is not the problem because they are Hispanic. By simple math the vast majority of illegals and residents who are deported will be Hispanics. Simple math. It isn't a race thing.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):
    You have stories that resulted into cases, I have stories of real cases...what's the difference?

    The difference is I have been personally involved in the system.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):
    I could give you my Imm. Atty friends number so that you can question the cases of absurdity on his desk.. but that's be a waste of his valuable time to settle and 'internet dispute'...

    There is something we can agree on.   

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):
    That's great, but I'm certain that IS NOT the case across the board (all 50 states).

    You are right it is not. For example you don't want to get caught at ATL. Judges there are fairly conservative. Getting caught though at the big ICE locations where the majority of the cases are is a good thing for the immigrant. SF, LA, NYC, Miami.
    Anyway I am sure we can discuss immigration at another time. Thank you for elaborating on why you think it is racist . As a very important issue in my life, and something I know a lot about I was curious.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):
    Not at all, I was basically talking about the majority of Americans who have never used or requested a passport. Where am I talking about you?

    Same paragraph, I discussed about "only" living in two cities. Thought you were interpreting me. Anyway I can agree with you about the average American claim. As someone who studied Geography I am embarrassed at the lack of global knowledge many Americans have. Something else we can agree on.

    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):
    Sorry for the misinterpretation.

      



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
    User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
    Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1782 times:

    Quoting flymia (Reply 43):
    Quoting BN747 (Reply 42):
    And that's the problem correct? They're not Australians, not Brits, they're Hispanics and they're taken over!!! Nevermind the others..just stop those damn Hispanics!!! Somebody Do Something!

    That is not the problem because they are Hispanic. By simple math the vast majority of illegals and residents who are deported will be Hispanics. Simple math. It isn't a race thing.

    From your perspective that's not the problem, but it was made the problem and a divisive lightning rod in a slew of political ads that turned from 'the Arab' problem to the 'Hispanic Problem followed by certain states directly targeting brown skin people. It's become so pervasive, in any conversation where the term Immigration comes up - nearly any person in earshot is going to think 'Hispanic'..not jewish, not white, not black...but Hispanic.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 43):
    Thank you for elaborating on why you think it is racist . As a very important issue in my life, and something I know a lot about I was curious.

    You're welcome.

    Quoting flymia (Reply 43):
    As someone who studied Geography I am embarrassed at the lack of global knowledge many Americans have. Something else we can agree on.

    By the time I entered High School I could free hand 'draw' every continent fill in the border boundaries and name every national capital (and all 50 states in the USA), really loved geography..even now when flying I like to look out the window and guess on my own (without aids) exactly where we were at any given moment. Love of geography will do that to you.

    I enjoyed the exchange..

    BN747



    "Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
    User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
    Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1764 times:

    Quoting dreadnought (Reply 38):
    He could handle it if he cared to, but probably doesn't. Same with me and with several other people on this board I have corresponded with - It is useless to argue with you. You are so so sure of your position, and dripping with contempt against anyone who disagrees with you. So, we don't bother trying.

    lol yup   

    Quoting flymia (Reply 43):
    I discussed about "only" living in two cities.

    What cities have you lived in? They sound similar to mine where race wasn't an issue and everyone got along really well (I had friends of every color and cliques existed but they weren't strong/binding and there was a lot of intermingling of groups)



    Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
    User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
    Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

    Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
    What cities have you lived in?

    Miami and Washington D.C. Also spent 5 months in Barcelona Spain.
    Now I went to school in D.C. so much of the time I was in a college environment which IMO is one of the most open and diverse environments you can be in. At least when you go to a major university or one in a large metro area. In Miami I have friends and had friends in high school from all over the world. I am fairly confident with the exception of Suriname and some of the smaller Island in the Caribbean I personally knew someone from every other South or North American country. Italians, Japanese, Russians, British, Spanish, French, Thai, Filipino, Black, White, Hispanic etc.. You name it. That was high school.

    Obviously though, both cities have their problems especially with the black communities which stem from prior racial issue earlier last century and now poor economic situations.



    "It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
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