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Police Shoot Dog - Justified Or Not?  
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13547 posts, RR: 62
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2794 times:
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Apparently this occurred last week; a man was placed under arrest by police in Hawthorne, CA. During his arrest his pet Rottweiler jumped out of the car and attacked one of the officers, who responded by opening fire.

See the video (WARNING - graphic and disturbing) for yourself and you decide; justified, or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9fCK6Y0bu4

My take? It sounds like the arrest may not have been justified, however once he was under arrest and that dog attacked the officer, there was no other option but to put the dog down with force, especially since the officer tried twice to get control of the dog's leash and it lunged at him.



(side note - read the closed captioning; how the hell did that person get their job?)


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

I saw this a few days back and my initial reaction was that the officer was a complete and utter tool - of course watching a video is not being there. On top of that it was horrible seeing the dog get shot and the owner's reaction.

[Edited 2013-07-09 01:48:18]

User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2651 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

I didn't watch the video and expect I shan't, but quick question: Don't stun guns work on dogs?


Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5134 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

Quoting Airstud (Reply 2):
Don't stun guns work on dogs?

I would have thought the dosage in a stun gun would be set to incapacitate a human. Such a dose would probably be fatal to a dog.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2651 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2753 times:

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 3):
I would have thought the dosage in a stun gun would be set to incapacitate a human. Such a dose would probably be fatal to a dog.

I thought about that too, but my thinking is still, better to use the stun gun and risk killing the dog, than to use bullets and do it definitely.



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlinegreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2707 times:

Both probes from a taser have to make contact. As they leave the taser they start to spread out. in a "v" therefore most likely a dog coming at you will produce two small of a target for both probes to make contact with. One misses and the taser is completely ineffective. So no a taser is not an option.

Plus this is happening really fast and it is really easy to critique a video when you are not standing in front of the dog.

Plus remember this dog sees its owner being attacked and is not running up to them to lick them. He is a Rotti and is in attack mode.

So you taser and miss and the dog chomps onto you. What do you do now? His partners cannot now shoot the dog for risk of hitting the officer. The officer is now fighting off the dog and he cannot get his gun out.

I have a doberman and if anyone attacks me it will give up its life to try and save me i suspect,

I the same situation I would also shoot the dog,

This is the owners fault for putting the dog in this situation.

gs

[Edited 2013-07-09 05:04:31]


Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2678 times:

Let me preface this by saying I have had at least one dog, sometimes multiple dogs, in my home for the last 20 years. I have had Dobermans, Labradors and mutts. They have all been members of my family and I have treated them as such.

But, if one of my dogs attacked a police officer, I expect that police officer to put the dog down...it would save me the trouble.

I have had exposure to Rotts. They are loyal to a fault. They are strong, agile and can be vicious when they are in danger or their family is in danger. A dog can not distinguish between a police officer doing his job and an asshole.

Quoting greasespot (Reply 5):
This is the owners fault for putting the dog in this situation.

  

[Edited 2013-07-09 06:45:17]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 705 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2667 times:

Unfortunately there are a lot of stories of dogs attacking people. I remember about a month ago a story of some woman jogging in the woods and being attacked by dogs,

and did you all see this recent story of a woman news reporter being attacked by a womans two dogs? Never mind the reporter confronting the woman in the first place, that is not the issue here (same as with the Hawthorne arrest), the issue is with using a dog as an attack weapon. I understand the dog owner went to jail over this.
since she was a reporter and had a crew, it was caught on tape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9adcLjqjlY

It's funny, after hearing of a few of these stories, I was walking at night from the gym down a downtown street, and here in Honolulu, downtown, there is a store that was once Macy's and is now unused (soon to be a Walmart but that s not the story lol), but there was this homeless-ish man sleeping in the door/entry way which was semi lit from above. Okay, so I am walking home from the gym, it's about 10:30 pm and I see hiim and his dog slee;ping next to him. I get close, about 15 feet away as Im on the sidewalk and he/the dog is in the doorway to old Macys, and I sort of say "hello doggie" as I am p;assing and the dog starts snarling and barking very aggressively, the guy is asleep, but then the dog starts running towards me and I get worried, but realize, oh, the leash will stop him. Thing is, there is no leash, then I get worried and that dog is seeminly in attack mode. I yell out to the guy "Hey, get your dog away" or soemthing to that effect and he wakes up and yells for the dog who comes running back. I am a bit shaken and am seriously at the point where I want to call someone and get this dog off the street, but I don't. I jus want out of that situation.

Next thing the man is slapping up the dog and I have a bit of smile on me. I will admit, had that dog gotten any closer to me I would not have hesitated to bash its head in with my gym bag filled with heavy crap. I love dogs too. This was not a poodle, or terrier but a sort of dog that I would associate with being rottweilerish or pit bull-ish, hence my alarm.
This incident made me begin to consider some sort of pepper spray or mace for these situations. I never did get that far, but I still am considering something for future purposes.

Anyway, tbats my story. I symphathize wiith the police and anybody who has to deal with an out of control dog. I actually blame the owners and people handliing these pets and training them poorly. That is an issue, but the animal sadly, will pay the consequences for his owners errant ways.

[Edited 2013-07-09 07:01:08]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

Quoting greasespot (Reply 5):
This is the owners fault for putting the dog in this situation.

What exactly should he have done differently?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4383 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2603 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

I don't see what the huge uproar over this video is. The owner appears to be walking around several police cruisers, with his music playing loudly in his vehicle with his windows down. Then when he won't leave, the police finally come over to him after he puts the dog in the car, with the windows still down. The owner should have never been screwing around that place to begin with. When the dog jumped out and appears to try to attack, the police officer shoots it in self-defense. I'm not sure what they arrested him for, but the loud music and interference with official acts is probably a good start. I doubt many other police officers would have reacted much different. I do computer repair service house calls and have had two different dogs run up on me, and the thought of a large aggressive dog regardless of the breed biting your hand and also possibly transmitting rabies is nothing something I would want to deal with. People need to be responsible with their pets and responsible for themselves in general.


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3619 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

Quoting Airstud (Reply 2):
Don't stun guns work on dogs?

I have seen it work on dogs before and it does not kill them. The only issue is how they react after the shock. Most of the videos I've seen of dogs getting tazed they run away but some dogs might become even angrier.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

It is sad but putting down threatening dogs is nothing new. There is a lot of coulda-woulda-shoulda involved, but we all know hindsight is 20/20. The SOP is the same for people--if an officer thinks his/her life is in danger and a human is coming at the officer threateningly, the result would be the same. I'm surprised the officer didn't shoot earlier to be honest.

Still is sad though   I don't think it was directly the owners fault, nor do I see the police using excessive force. It's just a sad situation.

Also, every police jurisdiction is different. The SOP might not allow for the officers to use tasers on dogs, it might be as black and white as "shoot a threatening animal"

I hope that before the outrage comes pouring out people at least learn the facts before rushing to flawed, emotional judgement



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2586 times:
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I agree with the male commentator. The guy was clearly trying to annoy the cops and, more importantly, distract them from the armed stand-off that was taking place. That is obstruction, and he shouldn't have done it. As for the rest, they were right to shoot the rottweiler trying to attack them - I sure as hell would if I had the gun and it was coming for me.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):

I hope that before the outrage comes pouring out people at least learn the facts before rushing to flawed, emotional judgement

Not a chance.

"Committing no crime", yeah, like playing music that loud is totally legal... especially when you're doing it in front of cops that are looking for armed suspects.

When a dog attacks a cop (or anyone, for that matter), they're just supposed to sit there and take it?


Oh well, even the mother of some (now dead) punk who tried to shoot a cop claims her son was innocent... even though it was all caught on film.

You're just not going to reason with some people.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

If the dog next door doesn't stop barking real soon, he may be tasting one of my bullets. It's so wrong that people let their dogs bark and bark and bark with disregard of those around them.


Christopher W Slovacek
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2502 times:

This was a disgusting incident. There was no need to shoot the dog.

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 14):
If the dog next door doesn't stop barking real soon, he may be tasting one of my bullets.

I hope you go to prison if you actually do that.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 14):
If the dog next door doesn't stop barking real soon, he may be tasting one of my bullets. It's so wrong that people let their dogs bark and bark and bark with disregard of those around them.

I guarantee you that if you shoot a dog who is doing nothing more than barking, you will end up in jail.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
This was a disgusting incident. There was no need to shoot the dog.

How so? What do you think was going on, and what would have been your course of action?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
This was a disgusting incident. There was no need to shoot the dog.

There are precedents to shooting dogs, officers have been attacked before. And trust me, I LOVE dogs. Are you mad at the officer or the SOP? I do not know this departments SOP but I'd bet $20 the officer did not do wrong according to the SOP



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineHorizonGirl From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 807 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

I love dogs, I think this was a horrible, awful incident, and it should not have happened. However, I believe in this circumstance, the officer had no choice but to shoot the dog. What bothers me the most is, in the videos I've seen, it seems as though the dog is not killed immediately and is suffering after being shot. The officer should have shot the dog at least once more to end his pain. As far as I see it, acting out of self defense it understandable, but causing undue suffering is not.


Devon



Flying high on the Wings of the Great Northwest!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Quoting HorizonGirl (Reply 18):
The officer should have shot the dog at least once more to end his pain

In the department I worked with, mercy shots were not instantaneous... a single shot in the heart. Perhaps that is why he didn't just shoot the dog in the head in the end. Cops are trained to shoot center mass, and maybe the cop did shoot the dog in the heart.

Also, consider that cops don't really want to shoot unless they have to, especially with people all around. Shooting the dog to incapacitate it was needed, despite the people around (in the officer's eyes) but a mercy shot with all those people around may have been too risky

Cops are more regulated in what they can/can't do than most people realize. They often get in crappy situations that are lose-lose, like this one. Every department is different with it's rules, so it's hard for me or anyone to say what the cop could have or should have done



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2471 times:

It almost look like the dog wasn't about to jump and maybe the officer was a little too quick to shoot. That being said I may have done the same thing in his shoes.

What everyone in their cop-hating angle doesn't acknowledge is the owner being an idiot. He DROVE over to the scene of police activity and kept distracting the police (you can hear him saying stuff and videotaping with his phone). He really had no reason to even go there and put his dog in that situation.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Quoting HorizonGirl (Reply 18):
What bothers me the most is, in the videos I've seen, it seems as though the dog is not killed immediately and is suffering after being shot. The officer should have shot the dog at least once more to end his pain.

Unfortunately, then you would get the already rabid anti-cop gang screaming "OMG he executed that poor puppy!   "



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12241 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2456 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

We had a similar incident where I work just a few weeks ago. The dog attacked an officer and was shot. It was taken to an emergency vet, but died later from the injuries. Completely justified.

For those wondering if a Taser (what some call a stun gun) works...watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Itfr_V424



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5383 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
This was a disgusting incident. There was no need to shoot the dog.

And how exactly would a police officer(s) deal with a dog that is tipping the scales somewhere north of 100 lbs? A dog that thinks its owner is being attacked? A dog that has been bred for protection and if not properly trained, a dangerous, unpredictable animal? And, if properly trained in protection, a potential deadly weapon?

Have you ever tangled with a large dog? Really tangled with an angered dog defending its own? I've seen the results of what happens when you do that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
Perhaps that is why he didn't just shoot the dog in the head in the end. Cops are trained to shoot center mass, and maybe the cop did shoot the dog in the heart.

I don't know of anyone that trains on a dog silhouette. Training for most 'beat' officers is center mass shooting at a target that is 'standing' up. I've seen some officers at my local range fire from a crouch or prone position, but they are always firing up at the target. The physics changes when you are aiming down at your target. Throw into the mix a moving target, and the situation changes.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
I don't know of anyone that trains on a dog silhouette. Training for most 'beat' officers is center mass shooting at a target that is 'standing' up. I've seen some officers at my local range fire from a crouch or prone position, but they are always firing up at the target. The physics changes when you are aiming down at your target. Throw into the mix a moving target, and the situation changes.

My point is they aren't shooting at the dog's head for a quick death or at its legs to immobilize it. They're just shooting at the dog, towards the center more or less (and I didn't mention movement calculations or the angle up or down, I meant the officer aims wherever to get the bullet into the dog even if straight down the sights is not exactly center mass)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
25 fr8mech : I was just making a general observation and used your post to bridge into it. Anyone who suggests that the officer should have gone for a 'kill shot'
26 Mir : Videotaping with a phone isn't illegal, and there's no reason for it to be considered distracting to the police unless the guy is actively disrupting
27 vikkyvik : As much as it pains me to say it, I agree. There might have been ways to avoid this, prior to what we see in the video, but based solely on the video
28 DeltaMD90 : While I agree and would fight any attempt to disallow filming, it does often annoy me when people film and then nitpick everything the cop does. Most
29 idealstandard : I think the Police Officer needs as few distractions as possible whilst dealing with an arrest situation, as such if a dog (which can be vicious and d
30 fr8mech : I wish people would stop drawing a moral equivalency between a human being and an animal.
31 2H4 : Indeed. A couple of months ago, I saved my neighbor's dog from another neighbor's dog. The attacking dog had the victim dog by the throat, and I had
32 vikkyvik : For many people, dogs are part of their family. Wish all you want, but people don't have to share your view. Just like how some people would do absol
33 DFWHeavy : Absolutely not Vikkivyk. People and animals are two different things. I'm rational.. I can separate between humans and animals and understand they hav
34 fr8mech : As I've stated earlier, I've had dogs for over 20 years. They have been members of my family. I cried (along with my family) each time one had to be
35 vikkyvik : OK. I didn't actually say anything about you at all - I don't know you, and don't know your relationships with people or pets. I don't typically comp
36 Mir : Interefere with your privacy? Is it staring at you through the window or something? -Mir
37 Maverick623 : Did you not hear the blaring music in the video? So the proper thing to do is to... shoot it?
38 Post contains images RussianJet : Pestering them over and over with idiotic 'complaints' after being asked several times to stop it and move away, while playing stupidly loud music is
39 Mir : Did they ever ask him to turn it down? When did he pester them with idiotic complaints? He was walking around near his car and filming from there, th
40 stratosphere : He may have been in this case but there is certainly evidence of cops being overzealous and killing dogs and people too. Anyone remember a case in Ea
41 Maverick623 : I wasn't aware it was a legal (or even moral) requirement for police to "ask" someone to stop breaking the law before they arrest someone for breakin
42 2H4 : What I have a problem with is the uneducated second-guessing and armchair quarterbacking that goes on toward law enforcement. Why is it that whenever
43 Mir : Playing music is illegal now? -Mir
44 fr8mech : Interfering with police .[Edited 2013-07-12 04:26:07]
45 Mir : And until the police tell you you're interfering, how do you really know you're interfering? -Mir
46 RussianJet : He was reported to be repeatedly hassling them about why there were 'no black cops' there. He was told to go away - perfectly fair in the circumstanc
47 Mir : Reported by who? I never say them tell him to go away. The first time I saw them approach him was to arrest him. If they had told him to go away or t
48 2H4 : Wait, so you're saying that because you personally didn't happen to see (or hear) them tell him to go away on this particular video clip, it definite
49 RussianJet : By the commentators discussing the original video for one, specifically stating that he kept badgering them about why there were no black cops, and b
50 Maverick623 : Indeed, playing music at that kind of volume is a civil infraction in almost every municipality in the US... although not something you'd get arreste
51 DeltaMD90 : Are you intimately familiar with this case or are you just "going by the video?" You know better than that Mir! I'm not absolving the cops of guilt,
52 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://news.providencejournal.com/br...-news/2013/07/dog-attackready.html This an example of a dangerous dog who was shot and deserved to be shot. One
53 RussianJet : It's kind of a given that we don't know literally ALL of the facts. Clearly there wouldn't be much of a discussion without a healthy dose of assumpti
54 Post contains images windy95 : Funny that there is quite a few people on this thread that have no problem aborting a 20 week old child in the womb but get all upset when a cop put's
55 DeltaMD90 : There is a difference between speculation and passing things off as facts. Look at the posts in question, a lot of it is not speculation, he was sayi
56 Post contains links Mir : There are other videos out there that show the whole thing - the one in the OP is ridiculously short, and how one could draw anything from it I have
57 Post contains links Maverick623 : http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=256_1373408203 They did tell him to back off, and he mouthed off back to them. Recording police officers is not against
58 RussianJet : So what makes you so sure they didn't? There we go. Absolutely right. In the middle of an armed stand-off, however, I'd probably set the bar fairly l
59 Mir : I can't hear exactly what they said in the video, but I will accept that they did say something to him. But it doesn't sound like they told him he co
60 RussianJet : If you start beating someone the Police won't come over and suggest you stop because you could end up being arrested. There's an armed siege which wa
61 Mir : Because beating someone is clearly a crime. Videotaping is not, nor is talking to the police, nor is playing music. It only becomes a crime if the po
62 Maverick623 : Funny, I don't see the producers or participants of UFC being arrested. He was not arrested because he was recording the scene, nor was he arrested f
63 fr8mech : You know, back when I was a fire officer, I had a young man detained by the police because he would not leave the area around a fire hydrant that was
64 RussianJet : I would suggest that IF he was indeed repeatedly pestering the Police while they were engaged in that situation, and AFTER being told not to, that to
65 2H4 : What responsibility does an owner of a potentially violent dog have in terms of securing it? Any? So you admit you can't hear exactly what is said in
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