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French Propose Regulating Restaurant Factory-Food  
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2377 times:

Now this is an idea I could really get behind. One of my biggest gripes about the trend towards restaurants serving food prepared offsite is that, as the article below states, "everybody ends up eating the same mass-produced food with the same homogenized tastes."

I've long avoided the Olive Gardens and Applebee's of the world because I know going into it that the food is trucked in and reheated to order. I've even stopped going to a place I liked for breakfast nearby when their pancakes started tasting too much like that commercial flavor-enhancer you can even buy in home kitchen-sized bottles now.

So what are the French up to? There's a proposal from their restaurant union to restrict the title "restaurant" to establishments where food is cooked from scratch. A government minister has proposed a logo on menus for dishes which are "home made".

French restaurants acknowledge serving factory-frozen food

Quote:
PARIS — It is the warmest memory of many a vacation in France: the little Paris restaurant where a white-aproned waiter served a dish glorified on the menu as something homey like blanquette de veau grand-mere, topped off with a still-tepid creme brulee that was just the right mix of crackly and creamy.

The trouble with this picture, it turns out, is that in 21st-century France, chances are high that both the stew and the dessert were assembled and cooked on a production line in a distant suburban factory, that they were quick-frozen and trucked to the restaurant, that they were then microwaved for unsuspecting diners who thought they were sampling traditional French cuisine.

In a survey conducted for the National Union of Hotel, Restaurant and Cafe Operators, a third of French restaurants acknowledged serving such factory-frozen products to clients. Restaurant owners estimated that the real number is substantially higher, as many chefs were embarrassed to admit the short cuts that, in effect, hoodwink their customers.

Do you believe you have the right to know what you're buying at a restaurant is prepared onsite vs. what is trucked in and reheated? I sure do.


International Homo of Mystery
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2354 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Do you believe you have the right to know what you're buying at a restaurant is prepared onsite vs. what is trucked in and reheated? I sure do.

Absolutely!



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6733 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Do you believe you have the right to know what you're buying at a restaurant is prepared onsite vs. what is trucked in and reheated? I sure do.

Of course, and because I can't have dairy or wheat, it's useful to be somewhere where that can be catered for. I don't usually eat out that much anyway for this reason.

I was impressed at the Novotel airport hotel in Birmingham (UK) where the restaurant staff were happy to prepare something for my particular requirements.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
There's a proposal from their restaurant union to restrict the title "restaurant" to establishments where food is cooked from scratch.

Ahh, I wondered where it had come from...

When you can't compete on merit, then push for legislation that denigrates the competition.

And what do they propose as "from scratch"? Do you have to prepare each serving of bernaise sauce individually or can you preprepare a vat beforehand? What about a packaged base for a sauce?


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 885 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

This my pet hate in the UK. I love traditional pub food, but as most pubs are part of a chain now, seems that almost everywhere I go its ding food.


To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 3):
When you can't compete on merit, then push for legislation that denigrates the competition.

Reading the article it's a job-related deal for the union, since you don't need a chef to unwrap a frozen tray and zap it in the microwave.

With more interest in the provenance of what people eat, it seems like a natural progression to have more of an interest in how it's prepared as well, as restaurant food factories have proliferated. Even Gordon Ramsay has food shipped in for some of his London restaurants:

Gordon Ramsay restaurants found to be using pre-prepared meals

Quote:
It is not hard to guess what Gordon Ramsay said yesterday when he fell victim to a sting by the Sun newspaper, which caught his London gastro-pubs out using pre-prepared meals including boil-in-a-bag coq au vin at mark-ups of 500%. Whatever he said, it probably had an F in it.

The television chef found himself having to defend the practice by which meals are prepared at a kitchen operated by one of his companies in south London and transported in refrigerated vans to his Foxtrot Oscar restaurant and three pubs he runs in Limehouse, Maida Vale and Chiswick.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
I've long avoided the Olive Gardens and Applebee's of the world because I know going into it that the food is trucked in and reheated to order.

The Olive Gardens and Applebees are not necessarily the targets here. Those restaurants may have standardized menus and prices (which is the attractiveness of such restaurants to consumers - wherever you are you know what you are going to get - but they could be using fresh ingredients.

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Do you believe you have the right to know what you're buying at a restaurant is prepared onsite vs. what is trucked in and reheated? I sure do.

Any Gordon Ramsey fans here? This is his pet peeve as well - private, independent restaurants who buy in frozen food from someplace and call it homemade. Considering that the vast majority of restaurants in France are independent, this is the bigger issue in France.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2260 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
I've long avoided the Olive Gardens and Applebee's of the world because I know going into it that the food is trucked in and reheated to order. I've even stopped going to a place I liked for breakfast nearby when their pancakes started tasting too much like that commercial flavor-enhancer you can even buy in home kitchen-sized bottles now.

Thus demonstrating that the market mechanism needs no molestation by politicians.


User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3762 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2255 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Do you believe you have the right to know what you're buying at a restaurant is prepared onsite vs. what is trucked in and reheated? I sure do.

I do. I'm not saying I will never eat in a restaurant chain that serves pre-prepared food (indeed I have). But if I do eat there, then I want to know that it is the kind of food they serve, if only to know what I pay for. It's a quality vs. price thing, and that would prevent some independent or semi-independent restaurateurs from overcharging for factory made food.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2238 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):

Do you believe you have the right to know what you're buying at a restaurant is prepared onsite vs. what is trucked in and reheated? I sure do.

So do I, I just don't believe legislation is needed when you can simply ask the question yourself of the staff in the restaurant and then make the decision.

This is nothing more than a union grab.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Do you believe you have the right to know what you're buying at a restaurant is prepared onsite vs. what is trucked in and reheated? I sure do.

My parents used to be in the restaurant business. My mothers restaurants where at factories and typically they would have one kitchen server multiple restaurants on that factory and occasionally next door. Would that be considered a restaurant now?

I also think it is very difficult to draw the line of what constitutes cooked at site. Is it OK if you boil ready made pasta or do you need to make it fresh? What if you buy mayo, mustard, ketchup, chocolate, etc? Can you buy curry or do you need to blend it yourself?

Then comes the issue of reheated. I expect many of you will have problems accepting it but it comes down to the process used. They looked at it very closely at my mothers restaurants at one time. Part of the process was to have chefs blind test and they could not tell when you use the right process.

In the end they didn't implement it because they decided local service was important but it had nothing to do with food quality.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 6):
Any Gordon Ramsey fans here?

Read above.  
Quoting francoflier (Reply 8):
It's a quality vs. price thing, and that would prevent some independent or semi-independent restaurateurs from overcharging for factory made food.

Indeed. Why pay the same price for what is ding food in one establishment, but costlier made from scratch at another?

Quoting moo (Reply 9):
you can simply ask the question yourself of the staff in the restaurant and then make the decision.

Remember the Kitchen Nightmares segment where the Amy of Amy's Baking Company lied to Gordon Ramsay about whether her desserts were made on site or brought in?

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
I also think it is very difficult to draw the line of what constitutes cooked at site. Is it OK if you boil ready made pasta or do you need to make it fresh? What if you buy mayo, mustard, ketchup, chocolate, etc?

It's not difficult at all. A dish labeled 'fresh pasta' would be freshly made at the restaurant pasta. Mayo, ketchup, etc. are ingredients, not finished dishes.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2202 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Remember the Kitchen Nightmares segment where the Amy of Amy's Baking Company lied to Gordon Ramsay about whether her desserts were made on site or brought in?

Which is out and out fraud, already illegal. You don't need new legislation to solve that issue, just apply existing law.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 12):
You don't need new legislation to solve that issue, just apply existing law.

I and others would prefer the restaurant be up front and list on the menu what is made in-house and what is brought in, rather than have to have the server stand there going over every option on the menu. But I also understand the viewpoint of people who view anything from a union or the government as inherently bad.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
I and others would prefer the restaurant be up front and list on the menu what is made in-house and what is brought in, rather than have to have the server stand there going over every option on the menu.

If that's the case then restaurants will do that voluntarily on their menu.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
It's not difficult at all. A dish labeled 'fresh pasta' would be freshly made at the restaurant pasta. Mayo, ketchup, etc. are ingredients, not finished dishes.

So as long as you don't use fresh on the menu you can just heat it up?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Mayo, ketchup, etc. are ingredients, not finished dishes.

I have never seen a restaurant type of reheat where you don't plate after heating it up so everything reheated is just ingredients in the finished product. what if they reheat the meat and vegetable but make the sauce from scratch?


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
I and others would prefer the restaurant be up front and list on the menu what is made in-house and what is brought in, rather than have to have the server stand there going over every option on the menu.

There's a whole load of things that could similarly be required to be disclosed - are they using organic or not, GMO or not, fair trade or standard market, responsibly farmed produce, local produce etc etc etc.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
But I also understand the viewpoint of people who view anything from a union or the government as inherently bad.

Now that's putting words in my mouth just to cheapen my opinion to others, and I don't appreciate that.

I don't see everything government or union is bad, but my view is that there is something inherently wrong in a union suggesting legislation because they are finding it hard to compete in the market.

Why can't those restaurants wanting to trade on the basis of onsite produced food play on that in their advertising? Why can't they make it a plus point for their customers?

You don't need legislation for this, that's just using the law as a bullying tactic.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
I have never seen a restaurant type of reheat where you don't plate after heating it up so everything reheated is just ingredients in the finished product. what if they reheat the meat and vegetable but make the sauce from scratch?

There's way way overthinking and then there's not. The proposal is to identify dishes which are made outside in a factory, frozen, and warmed up by a non-chef, against those which aren't. Simple.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 16):
Now that's putting words in my mouth just to cheapen my opinion to others, and I don't appreciate that.

One also has to take responsibility for the impression they give out. If you don't want people to feel that you view everything originating from a union as inherently bad, then you could also answer with posts which don't center around phrases such as:

Quoting moo (Reply 3):
Ahh, I wondered where it had come from
Quoting moo (Reply 9):
This is nothing more than a union grab.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
The proposal is to identify dishes which are made outside in a factory, frozen, and warmed up by a non-chef, against those which aren't. Simple.

What does it matter if it is a chef or whatever you want to call it reheating it? I think you don't realize how much stuff is bought even in the best restaurants. More importantly you're missing that reheating has made leaps and bounds progress over what people typically think of reheating. You use tightly controlled steam owens, certainly not microwaves. In many ways the reheated food is better than the locally made as it is much more consistent. Not to mention all those things happening in kitchens that you don't want to know about and are so much more common in small kitchens.

I appreciate the idea behind this but reality is that it isn't a usable measurement. Let customers decide based on if they like the food or not.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
One also has to take responsibility for the impression they give out. If you don't want people to feel that you view everything originating from a union as inherently bad, then you could also answer with posts which don't center around phrases such as:

That doesn't entitle you to put words in my mouth or extend my comments beyond that which I have already put them - this is a union grab, whether you like unions or not, it's them using legislation to protect their position and members at the detriment of non-members. How can you not call that a union grab?

Why aren't the unions putting their members dues to work by running advertising campaigns to highlight the issue and raise public awareness? Why aren't the unions suggest that their members push their onsite produced meals as a quality point above local competitors which ship the meals in?

Why do the unions want a law to be passed?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
What does it matter if it is a chef or whatever you want to call it reheating it?

It isn't so much whether it's a chef doing the reheating or not, the issue is whether people want to pay 'from scratch' pricing for meals which are largely prepared offsite, then either frozen or chilled, and held for reheating on order. Obviously, it's much cheaper to have someone without culinary training to reheat, than a chef to prepare food to order from perishable ingredients.

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
More importantly you're missing that reheating has made leaps and bounds progress over what people typically think of reheating. You use tightly controlled steam owens, certainly not microwaves.

I'm not a restaurant professional, I used the wording which the Washington Post used in the article I linked.

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
In many ways the reheated food is better than the locally made as it is much more consistent.

I thought about this aspect while reading the article. As I indicated in my opening post, one of the things which makes going out to restaurants less appealing to me is to have the same cookie-cutter style food available from one place to the next. The lower and mid-range of restaurant choices are becoming more and more dominated by these 'consistent food' establishments. How long has Sizzler offered Malibu Chicken? 25 years?

I seek out independent establishments as much as possible, but even then, walking into somewhere new, how is a diner to know what is trucked in and what isn't?

Quoting moo (Reply 20):
That doesn't entitle you to put words in my mouth

Everyone has the entitlement to comment on the impression left by those who post. No one forced you to write what you wrote. Take responsibility for how you framed your views instead of trying to run away from them. If your words were misunderstood, that gives you the opportunity to express them differently.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2097 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
Everyone has the entitlement to comment on the impression left by those who post

You are entitled to comment, you are not entitled to put words in my mouth. If you can't tell the difference, then perhaps you should refrain altogether.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
Take responsibility for how you framed your views instead of trying to run away from them. If your words were misunderstood, that gives you the opportunity to express them differently.

I take full responsibility for what I post - I've not edited or removed my post, and I've kept my username against it.

What I don't take responsibility for is other people paraphrasing me or extending my comments beyond that which I have explicitly said in my own posts.

Yu weren't misunderstanding my words, you were deliberately using them to attack my position without answering my actual comments. That's called an ad hominem.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
I seek out independent establishments as much as possible, but even then, walking into somewhere new, how is a diner to know what is trucked in and what isn't?

You *ask*, or is that so hard these days? "Does this contain garlic? Is it prepared from scratch on these premises? Does it contain locally sourced produce?"


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2088 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 22):
Yu weren't misunderstanding my words, you were deliberately using them to attack my position without answering my actual comments. That's called an ad hominem.


Not everything in life is all about you. What you're missing is that you weren't the only one who was tilting their comments in a way which came across as anti-union/anti-government, which is very common on this board. You've re-expressed your views so that they're more clear. Great, move on.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2083 times:

If a restaurant has to prepare everything from "scratch" it has at least one Michelin star or the ambition to get one. Prices for a menue start at 100€ with open end and there are a small number even in a country like Fraqnce.

Even high price restaurants without that ambition cannot afford to do everythoing from scratch. The magic word is "convenience" and that starts from basic sauces to peeled and pre cooked potatoes and many more things. At today#s wages most restaurants cannot afford to do such things on the premises.

The real mix does it and a look at the prices will tell the educated guest what he can expect.

Not to call places like "Applebee's" or McDonalds a restaurant is perfectly OK. That goes for chain "restaurants" like Maredo as wlel, they are better McDonalds.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2104 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):
Not everything in life is all about you. What you're missing is that you weren't the only one who was tilting their comments in a way which came across as anti-union/anti-government, which is very common on this board. You've re-expressed your views so that they're more clear. Great, move on.

Forgive me for thinking that by quoting you and only me you intended the reply to be for me...  


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2078 times:

Ah, unions. . . when it becomes obvious they are uncompetitive and their existence threatened, they seek the law to attack the competition! Cowards.


"In response, the government minister responsible for artisanship, commerce and tourism, Sylvia Pinel, introduced an amendment to a consumer protection law that would allow restaurants that prepare their food on the premises to affix a logo to their menus saying “house-made.”"

Really? Those places that cook in-house can do this without a government agency creating a stupid logo.


"The logo, which is yet to be designed, will allow restaurants to “better inform consumers and promote quality in the restaurant business,” Pinel said in a statement."

How on earth does cooking food in house necessarily mean it is of better quality? Food or business? Surely this bureaucrat doesn't equate better quality to "sucking up to the cook's union", or does she??



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

From some time I've been avoiding restaurants with a 15 pages menu, there is no way in hell, even with 5 chefs, that they can cook all those things on order. There are two opposite trends in France, more and more fast food joints, and small restaurants, where nothing is made there and indeed there is no chef at the helm, and more "mom and pop" and upscale restaurants that take great care to pick ingredients and cook, if they can't get this fish or that piece of meat that day, then they don't offer it, simple as that.

So whoever is behind the legislation, it has support from the public, information is always privileged by the people, usually it's the industries that want to hide what they do (like not telling from where they get the meat used in frozen dishes).

Quoting moo (Reply 3):
Ahh, I wondered where it had come from...

When you can't compete on merit, then push for legislation that denigrates the competition.

And what do they propose as "from scratch"? Do you have to prepare each serving of bernaise sauce individually or can you preprepare a vat beforehand? What about a packaged base for a sauce?

From scratch just means it has to be cooked from raw ingredients in the kitchen of the restaurant, you can use the sauce you made the day before, it's not a problem. This is competing on merit like you want, those who buy everything at metro will surely compete on price.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2076 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
From some time I've been avoiding restaurants with a 15 pages menu,

That depends, again, you have to look at the place. If it is a joint that heats up frozen food, do not go there.

If it is aq Chinese or other Asian restaurant that is family owned and prepares fresh food (which is rare in Europe even with Chinese, the fresh stuff they eat themselves) it is OK.

Whatever, no restaurant can, at todaqy's cost, avoid convenience items and that does not have to be bad.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2079 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
So whoever is behind the legislation, it has support from the public, information is always privileged by the people, usually it's the industries that want to hide what they do (like not telling from where they get the meat used in frozen dishes).

The public (i.e., the majority) has decided they don't want to pay exorbitant prices just to have food prepared on-site. This is just another useless attempt by the French government to try to prevent a change in culture.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
From scratch just means it has to be cooked from raw ingredients in the kitchen of the restaurant, you can use the sauce you made the day before, it's not a problem.

Define a raw ingredient. Must olive oil be made from olives in-house? What about the farmer who owns a restaurant in his property, and grows food in his own farm? Perhaps trade for other products with his neighbor? Does he have a right to complain about all the city restaurants and how unfair they are?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
This is competing on merit like you want, those who buy everything at metro will surely compete on price.

False. This is trying to compete by slandering the competition. You completely misunderstand what is meant by merit. There are plenty of upscale restaurants who do not compete on price who also cook things off site.

[Edited 2013-07-10 10:40:26]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Well if you believe people don't care about such logos (the point of the law being that it will be backed by inspections) then there is not need to worry or get upset about it.

France has the most McDonald's in the world after the US, and we certainly know they don't cook anything.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
I seek out independent establishments as much as possible, but even then, walking into somewhere new, how is a diner to know what is trucked in and what isn't?

If you like the food, what does it matter if it was trucked in or not?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
From scratch just means it has to be cooked from raw ingredients in the kitchen of the restaurant, you can use the sauce you made the day before, it's not a problem. This is competing on merit like you want, those who buy everything at metro will surely compete on price.

What does from scratch mean to you and why does it matter so much? I am not aware of any restaurant doing everything from scratch.

To me what matters is how it tastes. I also want that it should not taste the same as every other restaurant but at the same time I want it to taste the same as last time I ate something at that restaurant. This is why I don't like the frozen food that restaurants buy at the local wholesaler and while there are many, far too many, of these it isn't the only way reheating is done.

When done right it is the restaurants own recipes that are used. The food is then prepared to that specification and sent out for reheating and plating. You will not be able to tell the difference between what was reheated and what was cooked locally. Unless something is bad because then it is safe to assume it was done locally. If you need to serve a lot of guests, say 500 or more, in a very short time this is almost just about the only way to do it with great quality.

I don't see why this should exclude those places from calling themselves restaurants. I accept that this isn't what people think of when they hear reheated food but it is a very common form of restaurant reheated food. I also have problems if you can't call it a restaurant just because there is a central kitchen servicing multiple dining rooms and some of them may be in the next building or things like that. Advertise that you have a local kitchen or better open up so guests can see into the kitchen if you think that is an advantage but don't try to change the language.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
If you like the food, what does it matter if it was trucked in or not?

Walking into somewhere new, how is one to know whether they're going to like the food? I like the idea of knowing what there is on the menu that's trucked in from a remote kitchen.

Some things are fairly easy to spot. A coffee shop with a $12.95 prime rib special "any way you'd like it except rare" is probably going to be reheating prime rib slices which arrived in the kitchen individually vacuum sealed in plastic. The local Mexican place with an open kitchen is likely to be making things from scratch. The cheddar biscuits at Red Lobster are probably trucked in, thawed and baked (still pretty good, but not as good as scratch biscuits I make at home).

There's a lot of food out there which may be prepped somewhere else and held for a long time in one preserved state or another. It may have started out fresh ...



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
Walking into somewhere new, how is one to know whether they're going to like the food? I like the idea of knowing what there is on the menu that's trucked in from a remote kitchen.

How do you know you will like the food just because it is prepared there? Again, you treat all forms of food not prepared next to the dining room the same when reality is there are big differences between them. Just as there are often big differences between food prepared by difference chefs using the same kitchen, and often supposed to make it the same.


User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
France has the most McDonald's in the world after the US

Mon dieu!      

I think it's a great idea, confining the word "restaurant" to places that actually cook the food from scratch, though it might be hard to implement.

What I can see coming out of this is restaurants who prepare and cook their own dishes forming an alliance of some sort and displaying a sticker in the window, much like the Slow Food movement.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
If a restaurant has to prepare everything from "scratch" it has at least one Michelin star or the ambition to get one. Prices for a menue start at 100€ with open end and there are a small number even in a country like Fraqnce.

Even high price restaurants without that ambition cannot afford to do everythoing from scratch. The magic word is "convenience" and that starts from basic sauces to peeled and pre cooked potatoes and many more things. At today#s wages most restaurants cannot afford to do such things on the premises.

The real mix does it and a look at the prices will tell the educated guest what he can expect.

Not to call places like "Applebee's" or McDonalds a restaurant is perfectly OK. That goes for chain "restaurants" like Maredo as wlel, they are better McDonalds.

As a university student I used to work from time to time in a restaurant kitchen (as a dishwasher). There the cook would come in the late morning and e.g. prepare big pots of sauces (sometimes the day before), and him and his assistant would peel potatoes, clean the veg for the salads etc., but the actual meal was then made on order, using those on site prepared components (else the guests would have to wait for hours for their meals).
The cook refused to use powdered sause bases etc., but made them every day from fresh ingridients. This wasn´t a top class restaurant, but just the restaurant of a big amateur football club in Berlin and the prices were very civilised.
It was just that the guy was proud of his craftsmanship and did his work as good as possible. The result was that the restaurant was always packed.

Jan


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
How do you know you will like the food just because it is prepared there?

I would like the choice:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
There's a lot of food out there which may be prepped somewhere else and held for a long time in one preserved state or another. It may have started out fresh ...

Just like I only buy Oregon dairy products ( http://whereismymilkfrom.com/ ), or how I make many of the other food choices I do. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
There the cook would come in the late morning and e.g. prepare big pots of sauces (sometimes the day before)
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
The cook refused to use powdered sause bases etc., but made them every day from fresh ingridients.

Powdered sauces shouldn't ever be used at a restaurant. But as you said sauces are often made hours or even the day before. What does it matter if that happens at the dining room location or some other place?


User currently onlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1572 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
I've long avoided the Olive Garden

Good for you. I was invited for dinner there few years ago, their "Italian" food looked and tasted nothing like what I had in Rome few months prior.



Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Do you believe you have the right to know what you're buying at a restaurant is prepared onsite vs. what is trucked in and reheated? I sure do.

Of course I do, if they're gonna serve me a microwave meal, I might as well grab one from the supermarket, much cheaper and more convenient.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

I'm not sure why you're all focusing on sauces, sure they will probably be considered in the label but really the outrage isn't about the sauce, rather about whole plates coming off a plastic bag or can. The other day there was a reportage about pizzerias, some went as far as buying precooked and "tomated" base.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1929 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 37):
What does it matter if that happens at the dining room location or some other place?

Among other reasons:

1) The restauranteur has control over the quality of the ingredients and how they're prepared, rather than just ticking "marinara sauce" off on an order form for the same sauce that every other restaurant serviced by the food factory receives;

2) The restaurant only prepares what they think they need, rather than what quantity of food the factory wants to sell them in minimum order sizes;

3) It gives the restaurant the choice of having preservatives in the food or not;

4) It keeps culinary crafts alive.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1887 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
France has the most McDonald's in the world after the US, and we certainly know they don't cook anything.

Actually it's Japan. But France isn't far behind.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1830 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 40):
Among other reasons:

1) The restauranteur has control over the quality of the ingredients and how they're prepared, rather than just ticking "marinara sauce" off on an order form for the same sauce that every other restaurant serviced by the food factory receives;

2) The restaurant only prepares what they think they need, rather than what quantity of food the factory wants to sell them in minimum order sizes;

3) It gives the restaurant the choice of having preservatives in the food or not;

4) It keeps culinary crafts alive.

With this it is obvious you don't know the processes available to restaurant. What you describe is the lowest form of pre-made food. It isn't the only process available. When you have restaurants that serve large quantities of food, many do, you use your own processes and ingredients are coming from the same sources you would use if the went out to kitchens next to the dining rooms. This isn't stuff that you keep weeks or months. Typically it is one day, maximum three.

Again, I think it is very dangerous to define a restaurant as requiring a kitchen together with the dining room. It doesn't account for the situations I described above. It would not cover many hotels serving multiple dining rooms out of central kitchen and so on. The quality of a restaurant isn't defined by the distance between the kitchen and the dining room. It is defined by the recipes, ingredients used and the processes used.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 42):
With this it is obvious you don't know the processes available to restaurant.

Thank you, Mr. Obvious!  
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
I'm not a restaurant professional

I've never claimed to be anything other than a restaurant patron.

Quoting cmf (Reply 42):
The quality of a restaurant isn't defined by the distance between the kitchen and the dining room. It is defined by the recipes, ingredients used and the processes used.

Oh, look here:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 40):
1) The restauranteur has control over the quality of the ingredients and how they're prepared, rather than just ticking "marinara sauce" off on an order form for the same sauce that every other restaurant serviced by the food factory receives

This is getting easier though, to answer your posts it's not taking much more than simply copy/pasting what I've already stated earlier.   



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1820 times:

I do think some advertising regulation as to the place of preparation of food in a restaurant should be included or allow those that prepare meals identify them as prepared on the premises.

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1818 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 43):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 40):
1) The restauranteur has control over the quality of the ingredients and how they're prepared, rather than just ticking "marinara sauce" off on an order form for the same sauce that every other restaurant serviced by the food factory receives

This is getting easier though, to answer your posts it's not taking much more than simply copy/pasting what I've already stated earlier.

  

How is it you still fail to understand that it is the restaurants who decide on recipes and ingredients? They use the exact same ingredients they would use in a kitchen next to the dining room.

It isn't checking a box for a generic marinara sauce. It is sending your chefs to make sure it is your version of marinara sauce. Then, as was the case with my mothers restaurants it would go out to the 30 or so dining rooms they had. Or it would make it much easier and and handle events where you have large groups of people eating in very short time.

Get out of your box.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1808 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 45):
It isn't checking a box for a generic marinara sauce. It is sending your chefs to make sure it is your version of marinara sauce.

I really encourage you to read the linked article. The picture you paint is much different than what is described there.

Even common sense would tell one that unless you're running a chain, or at least several locations, the food factory isn't going to be custom-making everyday items for you. Go back to the example we saw with Amy's Baking Co. and her desserts. Do you really think that they had their outside source custom-prepare what they ordered, or did they say "send me one of those, two of those, one of that"?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 46):
Even common sense would tell one that unless you're running a chain, or at least several locations, the food factory isn't going to be custom-making everyday items for you. Go back to the example we saw with Amy's Baking Co. and her desserts. Do you really think that they had their outside source custom-prepare what they ordered, or did they say "send me one of those, two of those, one of that"?

How about using some of that common sense. I've already provided you an example of where a it makes sense even when you have a single location. One of my mothers restaurants averaged 5,000 meals per day. It isn't uncommon.

As to small restaurants and desserts. One place I visit frequently used to have a person deliver the most amazing chocolate cake I've ever had twice a week to them. Why is that cake less valid than if the same person came twice a week and made it in their kitchen? She had 8 restaurants she provided with that cake. She did it like that because she didn't want to give away the recipe. Sadly she died in a car accident 3 years ago and with that the amazing cake.

The problem with the proposal, and your objections, is that you try to equate quality with having a kitchen connected with the dining room. Yet again, reality is that that isn't defining quality. It isn't even defining uniqueness of food.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
She had 8 restaurants she provided with that cake.

As the article points out, and has been discussed here by others, bringing food in can result in the same homogenized food in place after place. If I really liked chocolate cake, and looked forward to having a piece after dinner when I went out, seeing the same chocolate cake on the menu in restaurant after restaurant would be rather boring.

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
Yet again, reality is that that isn't defining quality.

The reality is, as I've said before, when you pull in food from the outside, it may have started out with fresh ingredients, but it's still preserved in some manner. That does affect quality.

What you may be doing is confusing the small operation your parents ran, supplying their own different kitchens from a central kitchen, where they apparently had some control over the age of the product, its ingredients and preparation, to what is offered by the food service industry.

Going back to the Amy's example again, they had frozen ravioli. Amy and Samy claimed they were good frozen ravioli, but frozen food isn't what people want to pay high prices for when they go out. We not only saw that in the response Gordon received in Amy's dining room when he asked the patrons if they wanted frozen ravioli, to some of the responses here in this thread, such as:

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 38):
if they're gonna serve me a microwave meal, I might as well grab one from the supermarket, much cheaper and more convenient.

One doesn't need to be a restaurant professional to understand the reach of the food service industry today. Outlets like Restaurant Depot are in 27 states now with the cash-n-carry food service supplier concept, which offer more than just industrial-sized jars of mayo. There isn't even one place in town I've found which makes its own potato salad to go along with sandwiches any longer. It's all the same Reser's garbage that sits in its carton until someone scoops some out.

I was reading on another forum not long ago that not even United Airlines makes its own cinnamon rolls any longer, something they used to tout in TV commercials. When you fly United, you get Pepperidge Farm cinnamon rolls. Good as they may be, it's the same cinnamon roll that you get where ever anyone else uses Campbell's for food service baked goods. Pepperidge Farms Distinctive Cinnamon Rolls

What people are asking for, and I can't believe you aren't seeing that in the replies to this thread which are saying "yeah, I want to know what's trucked in" is that we want to know where our food is coming from and what we're paying for when we sit down and look over the menu at a restaurant. There are those of us who want the honesty of knowing that our pizza is made on the premises, and not from a disk of pre-sauced dough.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
As the article points out, and has been discussed here by others, bringing food in can result in the same homogenized food in place after place. If I really liked chocolate cake, and looked forward to having a piece after dinner when I went out, seeing the same chocolate cake on the menu in restaurant after restaurant would be rather boring.

Again, what does it matter if she makes them at her place and deliver them or she goes to to their place and make them there? What is the difference?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
The reality is, as I've said before, when you pull in food from the outside, it may have started out with fresh ingredients, but it's still preserved in some manner. That does affect quality.

You build your argument on may and then apply it as you prefer. Food made in a kitchen next to the dining room may also use preserves. Again, it isn't a guarantee that your concerns are covered.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
What you may be doing is confusing the small operation your parents ran
May again. No I'm not confusing anything. I'm stating that the definition you try to apply is too rigid and doesn't accomplish what you want it to do. What you're doing is looking at one specific type of operation and ignore everything else that would be included in that definition even though it doesn't have the problems you try to address. It is similar to how Internet cafes here in Florida had to close because of bad legislation.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
Going back to the Amy's example again, they had frozen ravioli. Amy and Samy claimed they were good frozen ravioli, but frozen food isn't what people want to pay high prices for when they go out. We not only saw that in the response Gordon received in Amy's dining room when he asked the patrons if they wanted frozen ravioli, to some of the responses here in this thread, such as:

She had a local kitchen. Per the definition you defend she would be able to continue selling the frozen ravioli and call it a restaurant. You failed to solve the problem.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
One doesn't need to be a restaurant professional to understand the reach of the food service industry today. Outlets like Restaurant Depot are in 27 states now with the cash-n-carry food service supplier concept, which offer more than just industrial-sized jars of mayo. There isn't even one place in town I've found which makes its own potato salad to go along with sandwiches any longer. It's all the same Reser's garbage that sits in its carton until someone scoops some out.

So how does allowing only places with a kitchen next to the dining room solve this?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
I was reading on another forum not long ago that not even United Airlines makes its own cinnamon rolls any longer, something they used to tout in TV commercials. When you fly United, you get Pepperidge Farm cinnamon rolls. Good as they may be, it's the same cinnamon roll that you get where ever anyone else uses Campbell's for food service baked goods. Pepperidge Farms Distinctive Cinnamon Rolls

I am not aware that United Airlines label themselves as restaurant. How does requiring a kitchen next to the dining room change any of this?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
What people are asking for, and I can't believe you aren't seeing that in the replies to this thread which are saying "yeah, I want to know what's trucked in" is that we want to know where our food is coming from and what we're paying for when we sit down and look over the menu at a restaurant. There are those of us who want the honesty of knowing that our pizza is made on the premises, and not from a disk of pre-sauced dough.

I can't believe you think requiring a kitchen next to the dining room will solve your problems. You're creating new problems, you don't solve any.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 49):
Again, what does it matter if she makes them at her place and deliver them or she goes to to their place and make them there? What is the difference?

For the fourth(?) time now in this thread ... homogenization of the food that you receive in restaurant after restaurant. You could, if you want, also correlate it to what the capability of the kitchen and its staff is, but I'm not familiar with the size of the restaurants you're referring to.

Honestly, if you would simply read and remember what's been posted in this thread, most of your questions would vanish.

Quoting cmf (Reply 49):
Food made in a kitchen next to the dining room may also use preserves. Again, it isn't a guarantee that your concerns are covered.

No one has claimed that. Again, reading and remembering what's been posted in this thread would answer most of your questions and concerns.

Quoting cmf (Reply 49):
She had a local kitchen. Per the definition you defend she would be able to continue selling the frozen ravioli and call it a restaurant.

Amy wasn't making all of her food from scratch. Again, comprehending the material at hand would aid in your understanding.

Quoting cmf (Reply 49):
I am not aware that United Airlines label themselves as restaurant. How does requiring a kitchen next to the dining room change any of this?

There was no argument made that United Airlines calls themselves a restaurant. It was an example of how food service has standardized and homogenized the food we receive when eating out. Again, reading and comprehending what's been posted in this thread would aid in your understanding.

Quoting cmf (Reply 49):
I can't believe you think requiring a kitchen next to the dining room will solve your problems. You're creating new problems, you don't solve any.

We're talking about honesty in labeling, when it really comes down to it. Which items on the menu are made in-house. Again, reading and comprehending what's been posted in this thread would aid in your understanding.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1695 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 50):
We're talking about honesty in labeling, when it really comes down to it.

No, you're not, you're talking about mandating information. Withholding information is not dishonest. Presenting false information is. If a restaurant microwaves food there's nothing dishonest about that.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21627 posts, RR: 55
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
It's not difficult at all. A dish labeled 'fresh pasta' would be freshly made at the restaurant pasta.

So do they have to actually make the pasta themselves? What about the sauce? What if they use store-bought pasta but make their own sauce - do they get to call the dish "fresh" (which is something I've never heard in relation to pasta)?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 48):
Going back to the Amy's example again, they had frozen ravioli. Amy and Samy claimed they were good frozen ravioli, but frozen food isn't what people want to pay high prices for when they go out.

That place wasn't a high-price restaurant. If I'm going out to a place like that, I'm looking for something that tastes good above all else. Sure, if they're using frozen ravioli I could go get the same stuff and make it myself, but if I'm not as good as preparing it as they are, or if they're using a homemade sauce that I couldn't make as well myself, then they're still adding quite a bit of value to the experience.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

For I don't know what time you display your lack of knowledge. There is no difference between the cake

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 50):
Honestly, if you would simply read and remember what's been posted in this thread, most of your questions would vanish.

You really should take that advice instead of dishing it out. You show an amazing lack of knowledge about the restaurant business and keep insisting on a solution that doesn't address the problem you describe.

Simple applying your criteria of prepared on site or not is a complete failure in achieving what you hope to achieve. For all practical purposes there isn't a single restaurant preparing everything on site. Not even 3 star Michelin restaurants. So then you need to define what on site means. Problem with that is that on site is frequently worse than trucked in.

Hope you now understand that your criteria is flawed

Addition.
The only criteria that works is voting with your feet. If you don't like the food don't go there. If you like the food go there and don't care about how much they do at what location.

[Edited 2013-07-11 09:32:48]

[Edited 2013-07-11 09:33:17]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1660 times:

I honestly don't mean to be rude, but sometimes I wonder if I'm speaking the same English language as some posters.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 52):
A dish labeled 'fresh pasta' would be freshly made at the restaurant pasta.
Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
So do they have to actually make the pasta themselves?

What does that say in perfect English? "Freshly made at the restaurant" does mean they would actually be making the pasta themselves. Yes. I don't see how it could be interpreted in any other way.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 53):
You show an amazing lack of knowledge about the restaurant business and keep insisting on a solution that doesn't address the problem you describe.

Is the dish prepared in-house or not. Simple. You don't see any value in that. Great, we get that. It doesn't mean that others wouldn't get some value from that knowledge, as we've seen from the majority of the replies here.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1647 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 55):
Is the dish prepared in-house or not. Simple.

Again, where do you draw the line for in-house? What if they use ready made pasta? What happens if they buy sausage instead of stuffing it themselves? Do they need to butcher the meat? What happens if they get peeled vegetables delivered to them in the morning instead of having the cleaning crew peel once they have cleaned kitchen, dining room and toilets, as so many places do it? And yet again, the question you constantly fail to address. How does peeling the veggies at the supplier and then transporting them make them worse than peeling them yourself? It is done in the same timespan. The only difference is in what state you transport them but it is how you store them during that time that is important. Not if they are moving or not.

That a lot of people make poor judgements because they don't understand the process isn't a reason we should promote that poor judging method.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 57, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 56):
What happens if they get peeled vegetables delivered to them in the morning instead of having the cleaning crew peel once they have cleaned kitchen, dining room and toilets, as so many places do it? And yet again, the question you constantly fail to address.

Eh?    Prior to this post, you didn't use the word "peel" in a single post, so it would have been difficult to "address the question". I'm quickly getting the impression that you simply want to be argumentative, rather than recognizing that public opinion is leaning more and more towards understanding the provenance of their food, and how the restaurant business will come to terms with that.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21627 posts, RR: 55
Reply 58, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 54):
What does that say in perfect English? "Freshly made at the restaurant" does mean they would actually be making the pasta themselves. Yes. I don't see how it could be interpreted in any other way.

Well, you said that ingredients don't count, and I'd consider the actual pasta to be an ingredient in the total dish (the others being the sauces, whatever toppings go on it, etc.).

By your standards, very few restaurants would actually be serving homemade pasta.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 59, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1638 times:

AeroWesty is not the one proposing this, we're talking about a cabinet member here.

As for fresh pasta, it's pasta that isn't dried and hard.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 60, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 57):
Eh?    Prior to this post, you didn't use the word "peel" in a single post, so it would have been difficult to "address the question". I'm quickly getting the impression that you simply want to be argumentative, rather than recognizing that public opinion is leaning more and more towards understanding the provenance of their food, and how the restaurant business will come to terms with that.

Oh God, you show your lack of reading comprehension again. Then introduce argumentative. Before you accuse others you should look at yourself.

When will you address where you draw the line in the sand for what qualifies as in-house?

When will you address why it matters what location something is done when the net process is identical?

Will you keep on dancing and be condescending or will you accept it is respect for the process of creating food that matters, not the location where the food is made?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 61, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1625 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 58):
Well, you said that ingredients don't count,

Quote me correctly:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Mayo, ketchup, etc. are ingredients, not finished dishes.

Then you went on to question whether "freshly made" defined in the same sentence as "made at the restaurant" meant did "they have to actually make the pasta themselves" because now pasta could be an ingredient, when it was obvious I wasn't referring to packaged, dried pasta as such an ingredient. It really boggles the mind if we're even in the same universe, let alone speaking the same language.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 60):
Will you keep on dancing and be condescending or will you accept it is respect for the process of creating food that matters, not the location where the food is made?

I've indulged you in answering question after question. Now that we've established that people are interested in the provenance of their food, how will the restaurant industry adapt?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 63, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

A good Italian restaurant that is owned by an Italian does prepares the pasta in house.

It's not rocket science, we have a pasta machine for the Kitcheaid. Regardless if it is Ravioli style or any form of pasta, it is relatively quickly made.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 64, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 62):
I've indulged you in answering question after question. Now that we've established that people are interested in the provenance of their food, how will the restaurant industry adapt?

You have still not answered the questions. Where is the line in the sand for what is required to be in-house? Why does location matter instead of process?

Why is it so difficult for you to answer those questions?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 65, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 64):
Why is it so difficult for you to answer those questions?

I've indulged you in answering question after question. Now that we've established that people are interested in the provenance of their food, how will the restaurant industry adapt?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 65):
I've indulged you in answering question after question. Now that we've established that people are interested in the provenance of their food, how will the restaurant industry adapt?

No you haven't. All you do is dance around to avoid answer two very straightforward questions that has been explained to you in multiple ways.

Where is the line in the sand for what is required to be in-house?

Why does location matter instead of process?

Provide answers to this long outstanding questions and I'll be happy to answer the questions you have introduced afterward.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 66):
Provide answers to this long outstanding questions and I'll be happy to answer the questions you have introduced afterward.

If you want to eliminate yourself from the conversation, that's entirely up to you. Since some of the same questions have been asked 3 or 4 different ways, and answered, we're now moving on to see how the restaurant industry will or should respond to their customer's increased interest in the provenance of their food, if that's of any interest to folks.

Join in or not, or simply let the thread die here. My initial question has been well answered.   



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 67):
Join in or not, or simply let the thread die here. My initial question has been well answered.   

Still afraid of answering to straightforward questions.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3585 posts, RR: 3
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1544 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 2):

I was impressed at the Novotel airport hotel in Birmingham (UK) where the restaurant staff were happy to prepare something for my particular requirements.

I'm surprised, I would have guessed that a Novotel would be well down the microwave and boil in bag route

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):

Gordon Ramsay restaurants found to be using pre-prepared meals

Quote:It is not hard to guess what Gordon Ramsay said yesterday when he fell victim to a sting by the Sun newspaper, which caught his London gastro-pubs out using pre-prepared meals including boil-in-a-bag coq au vin at mark-ups of 500%. Whatever he said, it probably had an F in it.

The television chef found himself having to defend the practice by which meals are prepared at a kitchen operated by one of his companies in south London and transported in refrigerated vans to his Foxtrot Oscar restaurant and three pubs he runs in Limehouse, Maida Vale and Chiswick.

I recall that the justification was that the pub kitchens weren't large enough to do the food prep on site. All the food was prepared in a company owned facility and delivered fresh each day.

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
(which is something I've never heard in relation to pasta)?

I'm surprised, our UK supermarkets ate full of fresh pasta these days, its the non dried stuff.

To me the distinction should be that there is creative input to the meals provided by a competent trained chef and no meal should ever have been frozen or preserved in its entirety. Additionally the specification of the meals should be unique to that establishment.

Far too many alleged restaurants now buy their meals directly from a catalogue one example is 3663 food service, mass produced muck delivered straight to your door, their driver will even carry it into the kitchen and put it in the freezer for you.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1537 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
Well if you believe people don't care about such logos (the point of the law being that it will be backed by inspections) then there is not need to worry or get upset about it.

You can have an industry association (or even a labor union-backed association!) perform inspections.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 44):
I do think some advertising regulation as to the place of preparation of food in a restaurant should be included

IMO, absolutely not. The menu is not the place for this type of information. Enough with crowding every last corner of menus with BS regulatory information.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 44):
allow those that prepare meals identify them as prepared on the premises.

There are no laws prohibiting such a thing as far as I know.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinelapper From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 1565 posts, RR: 7
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1463 times:

I once knew someone who worked at a Little Chef, those in the UK will know what I mean, roadside diner/cafe next to a busy A road, commonly known as Little Thief.

She told me that there were instances where they couldn't sell an omelette because they had run out and the staff either didn't have the skill or it was forbidden to make one from scratch...


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