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Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.  
User currently offlineCO764 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 165 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Around 2 hours ago (17:15 Paris time) one of the many "Intercités" trains connecting Paris with the city of Limoges in central France with 350-400 people on board derailed at high speed in the busy commuter station of Brétigny sur Orge, some 20 minutes south of Paris. The train was scheduled to leave the Gare d'Austerlitz in Paris at 16h53. The French television station BFM TV is reporting at least 6 dead with 12 serious injuries of which 9 are critical. It seems that some of the deaths were electrocutions. The Gare d'Austerlitz is now closed for traffic until further notice.

It is reported that the train was composed of 6 cars, of which several are overturned. Please see first article for photos.

Detailed article in French :

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/201...ictimes-selon-la-prefecture_917901

ABC article :

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...enger-train-derails-paris-19650755

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:32:09]

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:39:10]

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:43:42]

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:51:44]

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:53:35]


http://flightdiary.net/CO764. Next Flights: ORY - PSA, CTA - CDG.
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Boy, this has not been a good for transportation and its related mishaps from the OZ incident to the crash in Alaska to the train explosion in Quebec, and now for the Commuter crash in France.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Really shocking accident, I wonder what caused it.

I often took those orange trains when I was a kid, before the line I took became high speed (TGV Atlantique).

High speed in the context of this accident should be about 130Km/h.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 2058 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1892 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
I wonder what caused it.

Still too early to know but the AVUC (association of railways user) has apparently unearthed a statement from the SNCF's CEO dating from 2011 in which he qualified that railway line as sick.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
High speed in the context of this accident should be about 130Km/h.

From what I've read, it might have been 150 km/h.



I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20355 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1877 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
High speed in the context of this accident should be about 130Km/h.

Good, because I can't imagine that this would have ended nearly as well at 300+ km/h.

On a passenger-mile basis (and certainly on a passenger-hour basis), rail travel is one of the only modes of transport that has a similar (or even superior) safety record to aviation. An event like this is shocking.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1839 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Good, because I can't imagine that this would have ended nearly as well at 300+ km/h.

Actually, the TGV has a very good safety record when it comes to derailing. Even when it does, the shared bogie design allows it to stay upright and fairly stable throughout.

These classic, non-EMU trains with a loco and individual cars are not as safe when they get off the track, especially at high speed.

This is tragic though. It might not be related, but I hope it sheds light on the state of disrepair France's rail network has fallen into. Especially the non-high speed network.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 2058 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1818 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 5):
I hope it sheds light on the state of disrepair France's rail network has fallen into.

In 2005 the Swiss Federal Institute for Technology published an audit about the state of the French national rail network and from what I've read or heard here and there over the years, it seemed the investments have since grown. Isn't it the case ?



I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlineCO764 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1816 times:

The first article posted (French) is being updated extremely frequently. The train was apparently at a speed of 137 km/h and the limit was 150. The derailment apparently took place at a track switch 200m before the station. Apparently there had been construction on a track switch at the station several weeks before the incident but it did not concern the track on which the train derailed. As of 22h30 Paris time, 6 people are confirmed dead, 9 are seriously injured, and 22 have minor injuries.

I have to admit that it feels slightly odd having gotten off an Intercités train in Normandy arriving from Paris around 10 minutes before the accident occurred.



http://flightdiary.net/CO764. Next Flights: ORY - PSA, CTA - CDG.
User currently offlineskiaplg From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2012, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1796 times:

Shocking accident for the French rail network, but as other members have mentioned, the state of the secondary rail lines in France is pretty bad. Some of the rail material is pushing on 40 years in service, and I've never known anything except the Corail trains. Fortunately, there's supposed to be investment to modernize the train lines, as well as the SNCF apparently taking the Corail trains out of service by 2020.

User currently offlineDNDTUF From France, joined Feb 2012, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 5):
It might not be related, but I hope it sheds light on the state of disrepair France's rail network has fallen into. Especially the non-high speed network.

Not knowing or wanting to speculate about the cause of the accident, I think this is one of the major issues with the SNCF. A lot of investment is put into the LGV lines, and the regional lines, the TER, are funded in part by the regions, but the Intercités lines are quite old and ignored. The SNCF has tried to update this service with the rebranding of Corail into Intercités but some of the rolling stock is very old - especially the old carriages with green sofa style seating etc. Last year I took the train from Toulouse to Tours with a stop in Limoges and the train then continued on to Paris Austerlitz ( so I'm thinking it must be the same line) and there was a delay of 2 hours because the train had technical faults.

My thoughts go out to everyone affected by this accident especially during this holiday weekend.


User currently offlineCO764 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

This is all still chatter but the minister of transport said on BFM TV that human error was not a factor. Apparently, one of the hypotheses seems that there might have been some "tampering" with the track switch.


http://flightdiary.net/CO764. Next Flights: ORY - PSA, CTA - CDG.
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 2058 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

A faulty part of a switch could be at the root of the accident.


I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1581 times:

Yep a piece of steel stitching two rails together could have separated and blocked the switch from being in the right position.

I wonder if modern/future switches could have a system of captors to check everything is correctly positioned.

There was a time when they were manned, ditto grade crossings barriers (one of my grandfathers had that job for a time).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1563 times:

Some pictures of the accident, published in Le Figaro:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2013/07/12/PHOec683be6-eb1d-11e2-9a13-88419670fc00-805x453.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2013/07/12/PHO85aeb5ea-eb1a-11e2-9a13-88419670fc00-805x453.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2013/07/12/PHO22b1264a-eb3c-11e2-9a13-88419670fc00-805x453.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2013/07/12/PHO23a86ae0-eb3c-11e2-9a13-88419670fc00-805x453.jpg

Quoting francoflier (Reply 5):
It might not be related, but I hope it sheds light on the state of disrepair France's rail network has fallen into. Especially the non-high speed network.

Indeed, it's been years we're hearing that the "secondary" rail network (i.e. not the high-speed lines) was neglected and its state was worrying. The fact that the switch may be part of the derailment tends to be a proof of it. SNCF and RFF need to act urgently.

Condolences to the families.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1468 times:

6 deads is the final number. 16 people are still in the hospital.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...lan-de-six-morts-est-definitif.php (in French)



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineCO764 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

I would edit the title to change '6+' to just 6 but I've already edited the first post 5 times...


http://flightdiary.net/CO764. Next Flights: ORY - PSA, CTA - CDG.
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 2058 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1384 times:

Pictures of the piece that caused the accident:

http://twitter.com/SNCF_infopresse/status/356426064484003840/photo/1

http://twitter.com/SNCF_infopresse/status/356426148940505088/photo/1



I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20355 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1383 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 13):
Indeed, it's been years we're hearing that the "secondary" rail network (i.e. not the high-speed lines) was neglected and its state was worrying. The fact that the switch may be part of the derailment tends to be a proof of it. SNCF and RFF need to act urgently.

The difference between your country and ours is that there will be outcry and something will be done. In the USA, nothing would be done except to fix that one part of the track.


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 2058 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1373 times:

Apparently it happened on a double-switch just like on the kinked picture. You can see where the faulty piece was originally.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../3d/Paris_Est%2C_aiguillage_02.jpg



I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1340 times:

A terrible tragedy. May God bless the people who died and their families.

I have been on many trains in France, most of the time between France and Spain or París and Bruselas, without incident or ever feeling like there was any reason to doubt the infrastructure.

-a



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1326 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Good, because I can't imagine that this would have ended nearly as well at 300 km/h.

Already happened in Germany. Over 100 dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
The difference between your country and ours is that there will be outcry and something will be done. In the USA, nothing would be done except to fix that one part of the track.

The difference is that US rail networks are mainly used to haul cargo, and very, very few passengers compared to European networks.

The entire US rail network serves fewer passenger/miles than Switzerland. which has, what, 5% of the US population?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_usage_statistics_by_country

With that usage, it makes no sense to spend a lot of money on track maintenance.

By the way, did anyone see this? Sickening.

http://www.europe1.fr/Faits-divers/B...sur-le-lieu-de-l-accident-1582707/

Roughly translated: dozens of "Youths" were already at the scene of the accident when the first emergency services arrived. People at first thought the "youths" were trying to help the wounded, but it became apparent that actually they were looting the dead and wounded, taking cell phones, wallets, handbags etc. They and other "youths" threw rocks at emergency services to keep them back until the police moved in more forcefully, according to several witnesses interviewed at the scene.

French Authorities have issued some weak denials about this happening, but at the same time have announced a number of related arrests.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1320 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
The difference is that US rail networks are mainly used to haul cargo, and very, very few passengers compared to European networks.

Well we just saw in Québec that cargo trains can cause death and destruction, unfortunately.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
there will be outcry and something will be done

Yes, you can count on it. But I find it annoying and somewhat sad that we always have to wait for a tragedy before taking measures. And I'm not just talking about France.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
By the way, did anyone see this? Sickening.

I hope they find them and hang them by their balls.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 665 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1288 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 22):
I hope they find them and hang them by their balls.

Same here, it's time the authorities organised a free for all. For one day everyone can knee cap those bastards.

It just goes to show that these kids really don't have any notion of what it is to be a human being in a society, or even, of what empathy is.



Cheers
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