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Zimmerman NOT Guilty  
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6587 times:

Verdict is in...Let the riots begin


NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
332 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7481 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6556 times:

That's what I was saying   

Glad Im in Japan right now. I have to seriously comb through Japanese history to find out the last time someone rioted in this country...over anything that wasn't Narita Airport   



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4588 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6539 times:

They should have waited till Sunday Night to report the verdict....
Hopefully everyone remains civil.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6522 times:

No real surprise given the lack of real evidence.

User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Thread starter):
Let the riots begin

Why riot when you can light up my Facebook feed with your opinion? In the past twenty minutes I've counted over thirty posts regarding the verdict.


User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Thread starter):
..Let the riots begin

I really hope not.... surely we are more civilized than that? Hopefully...


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7149 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6416 times:

Really was 50/50 about the outcome. But I believe the lack of real evidence the only correct verdict would be not guilty. The system is made that we would rather have 10 guilty men out free than one innocent man in jail. There is no way anyone not emotionally charged could find him guilty. No way. The Justice system worked today.

Hopefully there will be safe, non-violent protest. Any violence will just make it worse.

Wonder what Zimmermnans plans are. I would head to Canada tomorrow morning if I am him.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13092 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6405 times:

As I discussed here and elsewhere about this case, no one 'wins' in this case. A young, unarmed, black male is dead. Zimmerman will be a marked man for the rest of his life.

Zimmerman could still face, as with OJ Simpson, a civil liability lawsuit although I suspect Zimmerman has few assets worth getting, if he had any after his legal defense costs, if a money judgment against him to make it worthwhile to go for but for principle.

Like many, I hope there are no violent reactions from those supporting Martin. That would be the absolute worst with more killed and worse racist attitudes toward black males. I also hope those that supported Zimmerman don't take his acquittal as an endorsement of weak gun laws and of the 'stand your ground' laws in public streets.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7481 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6383 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 6):
Why riot when you can light up my Facebook feed with your opinion? In the past twenty minutes I've counted over thirty posts regarding the verdict.

That's what just happened. I made a post threatening to unfriend anyone who states something overly political....or politically stupid...about this whole thing. I have my own opinion, I made that opinion once, in one short sentence, not in a confronting manner...and left it at that.

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
Wonder what Zimmermnans plans are. I would head to Canada tomorrow morning if I am him.

Eh I'd tell him to come here. Since he's not guilty, he won't have this on his record, and Japanese people have a rather infamous reputation for not caring much.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6362 times:

To be honest being this was a Florida jury I am sure they are well aware of the Casey Anthony verdict where the jurors had issues after the trial when they found her non guilty. I figured this was in the states favor they appointed a special prosecutor due to the fallout. I really thought he would get at the very least manslaughter.


NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25193 posts, RR: 48
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6353 times:

     

There was no case here.

It was simply a politically inspired prosecution.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 818 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6340 times:

Facebook and Twitter are rather amusing right now.


Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6331 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):

There was no case here.

It was simply a politically inspired prosecution.

Wrong, there was a good case to be had against Zimmerman, Prosecutors screwed the pooch on this one.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8839 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6296 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 14):
Wrong, there was a good case to be had against Zimmerman, Prosecutors screwed the pooch on this one.

They did as good as they could. There was simply no evidence to work with - which vindicates the original police recommendation not to prosecute. "GZ claims self defence. We find no significant evidence to suggest otherwise."



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2722 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6286 times:

A politically manipulated case that luckily for GZ had 6 citizens ,that could see through the bullcrap. Listening to the news and the idiots on them still try to push the race issue. What a joke


OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineATCtower From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 542 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6275 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 14):
Wrong, there was a good case to be had against Zimmerman, Prosecutors screwed the pooch on this one.

Wrong (in part), there was no case against Zimmerman, guilty or not. The evidence was weak at best, the star witness for the prosecution was a flaming imbecile, and the prosecution tried making it a race issue, not a 'kill an unarmed person' issue. Right though the prosecution sure screwed a number of things up.

Unfortunately I am expecting to wake in the morning to news that riots did occur and while I find amusement in that, it only perpetuates the stereotypes that make us feel they will to begin with...

My $.03



By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6275 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15):
They did as good as they could. There was simply no evidence to work with - which vindicates the original police recommendation not to prosecute. "GZ claims self defence. We find no significant evidence to suggest otherwise."

I agree, still doesn't change the fact that GZ put himself in the situation that night that ended so badly. I'm a gun owner, i'm pro gun and I still think how he put himself in that situation was wrong just saying...



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6253 times:

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 17):
Unfortunately I am expecting to wake in the morning to news that riots did occur and while I find amusement in that, it only perpetuates the stereotypes that make us feel they will to begin with...

Oh please what riots? This isn't the 90s so can we please stop with this biased way of thinking? Who is exactly is gonna riot?



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7149 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6209 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 14):
Wrong, there was a good case to be had against Zimmerman, Prosecutors screwed the pooch on this one.

Actually the prosecutors did a pretty good job. There was no case. Correct verdict was reached.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 18):
I agree, still doesn't change the fact that GZ put himself in the situation that night that ended so badly. I'm a gun owner, i'm pro gun and I still think how he put himself in that situation was wrong just saying...

You just said there was a good case against Zimmerman but than say you agree that there was no evidence. I agree he put himself in a stupid situation. Doesn't mean he should go to jail for 10-30 years.

The system worked.

Facebook is interesting. Besides for one black classmate of mine my law school classmates have remained silent which is probably the right thing to do. The rest of them are going nuts. Which is somewhat expected from people who don't know the system that well.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8227 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6190 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
I believe the lack of real evidence the only correct verdict would be not guilty

Then why did it take a jury 16 hours of discussion/debates? They could have gone home last night after 20 or 30 minutes if things were so clear.

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
There is no way anyone not emotionally charged could find him guilty.

I'm not emotionally charged about the guy. I believe it is rational to consider him a wanna be cop who couldn't make the grade.

I believe he should have stayed in the car/truck, whatever. Especially as he know the cops were coming.

I believe that his cowboy attitude, puffed up by his gun, led him to follow/stalk a barely 17 year old kid and I believe race had something to do with that.

We know he shot & killed the kid. That makes him a killer, especially to African Americans who have been the subject to abuse and racism. "Not Guilty" means two things: First, he gets to walk out of the courtroom. Second, he gets his gun back with all unspent bullets.

As to his safety, simply no telling. There will be people out there who would have no hesitation getting into it with Zimmerman so that guy needs to stay in hiding from the public. Maybe some work-at-home job with the family kicking in money to keep him sheltered & fed.

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
I would head to Canada tomorrow morning if I am him.

I doubt that they would want either him or his gun.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
Like many, I hope there are no violent reactions from those supporting Martin.

I don't believe that there will be violent reactions - for the most part. Local ministers have been working hard to keep things calm.

There will be so reactions - just like in the OJ case.

And, let's face it, Zimmerman is going to move somewhere that is relatively free of African Americans. Dishwasher, working from home, whatever. He needs to be out of sight and not recognized for the rest of his life.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
There was no case here.

There was a dead kid who confronted the man stalking/following him and ended up being shot.

Martin is dead and that will never change.

Zimmerman is a killer and that will never change.

And the jury did not deliver a verdict in a short enough time to establish that there was no case.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 17):
the prosecution tried making it a race issue, not a 'kill an unarmed person' issue.

It was both a race issue and a "kill an unarmed kid" issue. Do you really believe that Zmmerman would have followed/stalked Martin if he had been white & wearing a Polo shirt & loafers?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7481 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6180 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 19):
Oh please what riots? This isn't the 90s so can we please stop with this biased way of thinking? Who is exactly is gonna riot?

Maybe this is 12 or so years ago, but one guy makes a threatening gesture at a cincinnati cop, who can't tell if he's reaching for a gun or whatever, who opens fire, and the entire city descends to hell for 15 days or so. (April riots in cincinnati, 2001)

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 17):
Wrong (in part), there was no case against Zimmerman, guilty or not. The evidence was weak at best, the star witness for the prosecution was a flaming imbecile, and the prosecution tried making it a race issue, not a 'kill an unarmed person' issue. Right though the prosecution sure screwed a number of things up.

This. Remember, he wasn't even arrested for 44 days!!!! And that was after so many people were crying and screaming.

This is what pisses me off about the south- people immediately think, since they were the propagators of Jim Crow, they're still racist states. Same happens with Texas and Arizona all the time.

Zimmerman, while having a "white-ish" name, isn't even white!!
I hear about mexicans shooting blacks all the time in Arizona, and vice versa. I've also heard of a Latino guy somewhere who shot a black guy who broke into his house. The Black guy died, and the Latino was not prosecuted.

I mean this was absolute grounds for media, the left-wing twitterverse, and the NAACP for them to unleash their absolute fury.

There's an extended version of my argument and I will no longer comment on my position.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 13):
Facebook and Twitter are rather amusing right now.

Here in Japan, this isn't even trending. Not one Japanese friend posted about this.

Here is what's trending here:



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently onlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 818 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
Here in Japan, this isn't even trending. Not one Japanese friend posted about this.

Here is what's trending here:

Well, it is kind of an American story....

And photos like that one are why I love Japan. lol I saw a hilarious Japanese Domino's commercial earlier today featuring Hatsune Miku. So full of win.



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 20):
Actually the prosecutors did a pretty good job. There was no case. Correct verdict was reached.

Oh you mean Queen Kong aka Martin's GF (or whatever she was) who didn't seem like she had one intelligent thought in her mind...ya THAT was a real winner  

Sarcasm aside, I must say that the defense mopped the floor with the prosecution, not because there was no case, but because of how it was argued. Now i'm not a lawyer or anything, I just feel like the prosecution shot themselves in the foot way too many times.

Quoting flymia (Reply 20):
You just said there was a good case against Zimmerman but than say you agree that there was no evidence. I agree he put himself in a stupid situation. Doesn't mean he should go to jail for 10-30 years.

I agree on the fact that there was a lack of evidence, but I still think there was a case there, even for manslaughter



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6150 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15):
There was simply no evidence to work with - which vindicates the original police recommendation not to prosecute. "GZ claims self defence. We find no significant evidence to suggest otherwise."

And the unfortunate part about that is that the truth is never really known - we never got to hear Martin's side of the story.

Anyway, hopefully this case will persuade some people not to go looking for trouble, trying to play hero/vigilante.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineATCtower From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 542 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6136 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 19):
Oh please what riots? This isn't the 90s so can we please stop with this biased way of thinking? Who is exactly is gonna riot?

Yeah, since the 1990s are so long ago and the first person on MSNBC commenting on this was his royal idiocy al sharpton (refuse to capitalize his name, sorry) who has a history of promoting blacks to find race issues with EVERYTHING down to the two cent higher price in minority areas of Detroit on produce at a locally run grocery store (look it up, he sued). I normally would think the same, no riots, no way. Except I lived in South Florida and it is a completely different world down there. I fully expect the implications of the verdict to make the news on a large scale.

Quoting flymia (Reply 20):
The system worked.

Right or wrong, that really is the way it needs to be viewed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
It was both a race issue and a "kill an unarmed kid" issue. Do you really believe that Zmmerman would have followed/stalked Martin if he had been white & wearing a Polo shirt & loafers?

I think Zimmerman may be so zealous that he would have. Either way, since we will never know, it is a moot point and in your argument you are inherently perpetuating the issue of it being a race related issue. I know there are some 'good ole boys' who cant let the klan die, and some extremists on all sides, but furthering any issue on race bases sets race relations back. I do realize not everyone can see things the way I do but every time something like this hits the news and DF sharpton gets time on tv, it does not help close the racial divide.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
I agree on the fact that there was a lack of evidence, but I still think there was a case there, even for manslaughter

Saying yourself that you arent a lawyer, you greatly need to explain this. A lack of evidence is a lack of evidence. The burden of proof is the same for murder as manslaughter. If the circumstances warrant a different conviction that is one thing but to say 'lack of evidence, no murder' then say 'lack of evidence, manslaughter' is absurd. It needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt no matter the charge, trespassing or aggravated murder.



By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6274 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
I believe he should have stayed in the car/truck, whatever. Especially as he know the cops were coming.

I believe that his cowboy attitude, puffed up by his gun, led him to follow/stalk a barely 17 year old kid and I believe race had something to do with that.

He may have acted stupidly, but what he did was not against the law. Also, "you believing something" isn't proving anything. That's what it boiled down to, at best, most people were only "pretty sure" he was guilty but our justice system demands more than that

And all this rubbish on riots... come on, don't buy into the media hype. The media already inserted their dirty, truly racist hands into the matter, I highly doubt we'll see anything crazy happening



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 818 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6265 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
And the unfortunate part about that is that the truth is never really known - we never got to hear Martin's side of the story.

Can't that be said of almost every homicide prosecution?



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4995 posts, RR: 19
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6309 times:

To tell you the truth, I am just very glad this is over!


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25193 posts, RR: 48
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6294 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 15):
which vindicates the original police recommendation not to prosecute. "GZ claims self defence. We find no significant evidence to suggest otherwise."

  

Everything was fine until politicos got involved and wanted to make this some sort of civil rights case.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
That makes him a killer, especially to African Americans who have been the subject to abuse and racism.

You sound like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who managed to start a media circus trying to make this a race thing.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
It was both a race issue and a "kill an unarmed kid" issue. Do you really believe that Zmmerman would have followed/stalked Martin if he had been white & wearing a Polo shirt & loafers?

How about entering the gated community via the front door, not hoping a fence.

There had been multiple recent issues in the community with people gaining access including damaging property which was the whole reason for neighborhood watch being out there to start with.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7149 posts, RR: 9
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6298 times:

1. I hate Pierce Morgan trying to search for that race quote from Zimmerman's brother. He in my mind is such an unprofessional idiot. Zimmerman's brother is doing a fantastic job. I wish Morgan was off the air already. Surprised Zimmerman's brother hasn't walked away from the desk. Its disgusting.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
Then why did it take a jury 16 hours of discussion/debates? They could have gone home last night after 20 or 30 minutes if things were so clear.

Because the jury did a good job. And again I think the prosecution did a decent job with the case they had.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
I'm not emotionally charged about the guy. I believe it is rational to consider him a wanna be cop who couldn't make the grade.

I believe he should have stayed in the car/truck, whatever. Especially as he know the cops were coming.

I believe that his cowboy attitude, puffed up by his gun, led him to follow/stalk a barely 17 year old kid and I believe race had something to do with that.

Not against he law.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
There will be people out there who would have no hesitation getting into it with Zimmerman so that guy needs to stay in hiding from the public. Maybe some work-at-home job with the family kicking in money to keep him sheltered & fed.

Agreed. I would hire an immigration attorney and start looking for a country who would take him. I think he has an asylum case. If someone was as hated as George Zimmerman is in another country. His face and name on national TV the U.S. would give that person asylum.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
Now i'm not a lawyer or anything, I just feel like the prosecution shot themselves in the foot way too many times.

They made some mistakes but it was not an easy case.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
I agree on the fact that there was a lack of evidence, but I still think there was a case there, even for manslaughter

Murder 2 was always off the table IMO.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
I must say that the defense mopped the floor with the prosecution

Agreed. Great lawyers.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
He may have acted stupidly, but what he did was not against the law.

Exactly. People need to understand this. So many of the bad facts for Zimmerman had nothing to do with breaking any laws.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1917 posts, RR: 21
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6201 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):
Zimmerman could still face, as with OJ Simpson, a civil liability lawsuit although I suspect Zimmerman has few assets worth getting

I wonder though if he would sue some of the media outlets like MSNBC for libel in editing the 911 call, or the other (can't remember which one) who released his social security number etc.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 18):
I'm a gun owner, i'm pro gun and I still think how he put himself in that situation was wrong just saying...

Sure, but in the eyes of the justice system that's irrelevant, simply following him wasn't illegal, ill-advised perhaps, but you can't put someone away for it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
Then why did it take a jury 16 hours of discussion/debates?

Considering the judge let the prosecution slip in a manslaughter charge at the last minute and the shear length of trial and testimony/evidence to consider, 16 hours isn't really that long.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
I believe it is rational to consider him a wanna be cop who couldn't make the grade.

You have every right to your opinion and your personal judgement of him, but with regard to the law, it was equally rational to consider that he was attacked and defended himself based on the evidence (or lack thereof apparently), and that's all that matters.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 21):
Do you really believe that Zmmerman would have followed/stalked Martin if he had been white & wearing a Polo shirt & loafers?

So black people can't/don't wear polo shirts and loafers? Honestly if the guy had been white and wearing baggy clothes and a hoody it would have probably looked equally suspicious. In the end though neither of us are mind readers and don't know how he thinks or what he believes. From the get-go however, the media and all the usual NAACP ambulance chasers have been on this case like white on rice, blowing it up and sensationalizing it in an irresponsible way.

Quoting flymia (Reply 31):
I hate Pierce Morgan trying to search for that race quote from Zimmerman's brother.

I'm totally with you there. Hey Britain, can you please please please take this guy back?

[Edited 2013-07-13 21:27:48]

User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8839 posts, RR: 24
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6187 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 18):
I agree, still doesn't change the fact that GZ put himself in the situation that night that ended so badly. I'm a gun owner, i'm pro gun and I still think how he put himself in that situation was wrong just saying...

No argument there. As I said in the other thread:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 217):
This was no victory on either side. The whole thing was a tragedy. Zimmerman, in his arrogance, got himself into a situation that he was ill-prepared-for. Martin, in his arrogance, decided to double back and see who was behind him, and having seen that it wasn't a cop, decided to "fix his wagon". Two idiots met in the dark that night. There is nothing to celebrate.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11596 posts, RR: 15
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6168 times:

That's too bad. A man with anger issues who brings a gun to a fist fight murders a pot head with tagging issues and the pot head is tried and convicted and the angry man with a gun is the victim.

Welcome to the South!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6116 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
That's too bad. A man with anger issues who brings a gun to a fist fight murders a pot head with tagging issues and the pot head is tried and convicted and the angry man with a gun is the victim.

Welcome to the South!

Um, this is the Zimmerman case, not some strange right wing horrorland case you've dreamed up yet again



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19600 posts, RR: 58
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6046 times:

I've always said that it is better for a guilty man to walk than for an innocent man to hang. I'm not happy about this "stand-your-ground" law and I'm not happy that this guy (who clearly has a violent history) is out on the streets again, but I'd rather the system err in that direction.

Let us not forget, BTW, that throwing him in jail, putting him in the electric chair, or slowly slicing his genitals off with a rusty knife aren't going to bring Trayvon back to life.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6002 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
I'm not happy about this "stand-your-ground" law

I'm glad to hear that someone who is against this law has the tone you do. NOW is the time to discuss whether we need to keep SYG, modify it, or trash it. Too many people thought the law was rubbish and in turn, thought Zimmerman was guilty. I think (and keep in mind, I wasn't in the courtroom) that Zimmerman acted stupidly but according to the law on the books, he did not do anything illegal.

You can't simply say the law is stupid, it should be X or Y, Zimmerman would have definitely broken it then, therefore he is guilty

As someone who is pro-self defense, I do have a problem with this law. I can see cases where, due to how people think and perceive things, both think they are "standing their ground" and someone in turn is gonna wind up being dead. I also think that it is wrong, in many cases, to be totally in the right but stand your ground when you can easily and safely retreat without putting yourself in a situation where you have to shoot someone. If you can't retreat, by all means, protect yourself, but if you can retreat, don't just stay there because you legally have the right to kill somebody. That's wrong in my book



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5249 posts, RR: 25
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5918 times:

You have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and prosecutors failed to do that. I'm really unhappy about the verdict, but the case was difficult because the only real witness is dead.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
There was no case here.

It was simply a politically inspired prosecution.

  Yes it's all politically motivated. Of course.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 14):
A politically manipulated case that luckily for GZ had 6 citizens ,that could see through the bullcrap. Listening to the news and the idiots on them still try to push the race issue. What a joke

If Trayvon Martin was white, he wouldn't have ever been shot by Zimmerman. If George Zimmerman was black, he would arrested on the spot rather than being given the benefit of the doubt. Let's dispense with the crap that race is not an element in this case. Racism is alive and well in America. You want to pretend otherwise, fine, but in doing so you're being intentionally disingenuous.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
I'm not emotionally charged about the guy. I believe it is rational to consider him a wanna be cop who couldn't make the grade.

Indeed. I worked in law enforcement for several years, and I came across many guys similar to Zimmerman. They were all the same, fancying themselves as sorts of vigilantes out to save the world, and often ignoring the advice of law enforcement.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
I believe he should have stayed in the car/truck, whatever. Especially as he know the cops were coming.

Agreed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
I believe that his cowboy attitude, puffed up by his gun, led him to follow/stalk a barely 17 year old kid and I believe race had something to do with that.

I agree with you as well. If Martin was white, he would not have been followed. That's just reality.

Quoting Mir (Reply 23):
Anyway, hopefully this case will persuade some people not to go looking for trouble, trying to play hero/vigilante.

Hopefully.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
Everything was fine until politicos got involved and wanted to make this some sort of civil rights case.

We can ignore the fact that racism is alive and well in America, or we can all try and work together to confront our demons, ask ourselves the tough questions, and move toward a better society.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
You sound like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who managed to start a media circus trying to make this a race thing.

Race is an element in this case. Arguing otherwise is simple intellectual dishonesty.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
How about entering the gated community via the front door, not hoping a fence.

There had been multiple recent issues in the community with people gaining access including damaging property which was the whole reason for neighborhood watch being out there to start with.


Hopping a fence shouldn't be grounds for murdering someone. People damaging property is obviously illegally, but Zimmerman should have allowed cops to deal with it rather than trying to take the law into his own hands. He was on the phone with police, he should have followed the advice of dispatch and allowed officers to handle the situation. He didn't and now we have one dead teenager, and a man who is now a murder and marked for life. Neither side won here.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7481 posts, RR: 18
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5916 times:

Has any rioting occurred?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
Race is an element in this case. Arguing otherwise is simple intellectual dishonesty.

The only race evidence I saw during this whole time was the testimony by that one friend who was on the phone with Trayvon, where she claimed Trayvon was being followed by a "cracka"



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5602 posts, RR: 6
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 14):
Listening to the news and the idiots on them still try to push the race issue.

  

I heard one of the CNN idiots actually say that her "Spidey Sense" was telling her whatever she was saying.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
(who clearly has a violent history)

He does?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
because the only real witness is dead.

So Zimmerman isn't a witness? Why does Trayvon's word become the word of God? Was he not a part of the fight?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
Let's dispense with the crap that race is not an element in this case.

Race was an element, but not by Zimmerman.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
You want to pretend otherwise, fine, but in doing so you're being intentionally disingenuous.

You're the only one pretending. There is zero evidence to suggest that Zimmerman targeted Trayvon because of his skin color.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9337 posts, RR: 29
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5901 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
The system is made that we would rather have 10 guilty men out free than one innocent man in jail.

Tell that to Debra Milke in AZ and Jens Soering in VA, they'll be pleased to hear that they have a chance to be free very soon.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 2103 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5883 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 37):
Has any rioting occurred?

Why yes! In (surprise surprise) Oakland.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...ash-windows-in-Oakland-4664343.php

Quote:
Across the bay in Oakland, however, about 125 protesters gathered at Frank Ogawa Plaza outside City Hall before marching through downtown, starting small fires and smashing windows at the Wells Fargo Bank at 12th Street and Broadway and at several businesses, including the Dogwood Bar.


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5883 times:

my question is this, and i dont mean any offence, but what makes Trayvon so special? I know its really tragic and sad that a child and a son is dead..but so many kids and black men and women..not to mention people in general, die every day in this country. What makes him stand out from those people? Where is the media coverage for them?

User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 779 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5851 times:

Justice was done tonight and I'm glad these six women jurors realized that George Zimmerman was defending himself against a vicious attack by a troubled teen. If only there were a way for Zimmerman to recover damages from that over zealous prosecutor Angela Corey. This was a case of classical self defense and has nothing to do with 'Stand your Ground'.

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1917 posts, RR: 21
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5842 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
Yes it's all politically motivated. Of course.

...because it was? The police reached the same conclusion as the courts until Al Sharpton and President Obama got involved.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):

If Trayvon Martin was white, he wouldn't have ever been shot by Zimmerman.

Oh? Can you read minds?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
If George Zimmerman was black, he would arrested on the spot rather than being given the benefit of the doubt.

Really? So blacks never go uncharged for shootings?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
Let's dispense with the crap that race is not an element in this case.

The only patent "crap" in this case is the idea that race was an element. From the get-go, once Al Sharpton and President Obama gave the case national attention, the media and NAACP ambulance chasers like Al Sharpton have relentlessly worked to inject racism into the case.

First it was reported that Zimmerman, a white guy, shot an unarmed black teenager...oops, then it was discovered he wasn't white and was in fact half Hispanic, so then the media starts calling him a "White Hispanic" (newly minted racial term now apparently, invented by our great institution of journalistic integrity). Next we get CNN going crazy, stating Zimmerman called Martin a "coon"...but oops again, it was later discovered he was actually saying "cold". After that awesome piece of journalism, we get ABC repeatedly playing an edited version of the 911 call with the overt attempt at making it sound like Zimmerman offered up the information that Martin was black without provocation, despite the fact that he was really responding to the specific question from the 911 operator. Even after that editing fiasco which forced ABC's hand to fire some staffers, the New York Times followed by doing the same thing in print. It was also reported countless times that Martin was shot while walking through a "mostly white, gated community", implying it was some upscale white suburb despite the fact that the development is decidedly lower-middle class and racially mixed.

At practically every turn in this case, the barrage of racism that the media and others kept trying to inject, weave and outright fabricate at times was always belied by the facts and reality of the situation.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
If Martin was white, he would not have been followed. That's just reality.

And it's also reality that there have been a number of cases of whites (never mind the fact that Zimmerman isn't white) shooting other whites under similar "stand your ground" laws, your conjecture does not stand up to reality.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
Race is an element in this case.

If you really believe so, present a logical argument as to why, mind reading does not count as reasoning.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
Hopping a fence shouldn't be grounds for murdering someone.

That was never the argument.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 36):
Neither side won here.

On this we do agree.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2536 posts, RR: 22
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5680 times:
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Quoting ltbewr (Reply 7):
no one 'wins' in this case.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
There was no case here.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
It was simply a politically inspired prosecution.
Quoting dreadnought (Reply 13):
There was simply no evidence to work with
Quoting windy95 (Reply 14):
A politically manipulated case

If this were not politically motivated then why did the mainstream media constantly show the public an old photo of Trayvon as a cute little 12 year old with a hoodie on? When I finally saw a photo of the "full sized" "grown-up" version of Trayvon then I could see how Trayvon might have flipped Zimmerman to the ground and pummeled him. This was what the jury was shown.

Whatever-----Trayvon did not deserve to die and Zimmerman will now have to live with it. Two souls have died.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2742 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5613 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44):
If this were not politically motivated then why did the mainstream media constantly show the public an old photo of Trayvon as a cute little 12 year old with a hoodie on?

I never understood this either, but to me, the intentions were clear. And clearly, this guy wasn't the angel the media tried to portray him as. Here are some gems from Martin's Twitter account.


RT @ReesyyLaTootieB: Hahaha Hoe u got USED fa yo loose ass p*ssy.! Tighten up.! #Literally

RT @fukunurhoexxx: #youthetype of b*tch that give up your p*ssy for free and think its cool #p*ssyaintfree #fb

RT @TheSoleManSB: We in need of some trees … Wea tha weed man

RT @MisunderstoodC_: Get high to balance out the lows

RT @___xMaxDee: I got game for you young hoes, don’t grow to be a dumm hoe

RT @Bombshelll_: “@La_VidaBella: I’ll beat the pu**sy up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up”

RT @iTeachSEXOLOGY: d*ck slipping out when you got her in doggy? Either u trying to long stroke wit a short d*ck or she need to arch tha …

RT @Mitchell_Garcia: I’ll slap a girl if she said suck my toes wtf, she must be giving some great dome
for some sh*t like that òÕ òÕ òÕ

RT @ThatBitchJenny_: A f*ck n*gga is FOREVER a f*ck n*gga! Fu*ck ‘em!

RT @iAmCartoonFYF: 6 Pound 7 Pound 8 Pound #KUSH

RT @GrandadJFreeman: You know you high AF when you stop at a stop sign and wait for it to turn green

U WANNA SEE SUM CASH? WELL LEMME SEE SUM ASS

RT @KissMeEndlessly: puss ass crackas .

RT @TheyHATEShAHeED: Its crazy how i was jus pissed off,snappin…then i smoked..now im happy  ha

RT @stillblazingtho: If you don’t like #weed. #YoureNotMyType

RT @SheIs_UNdefined: & When Im On That SMOKE, Im Going Super-HAM!

Its a new year lets make some changes…… f*ck dat wea da weedman at??

RT @KimmyBtchhh: Some of y’all need a Blunt!

RT @stillblazingtho: R E T W E E T If you smoke #weed.

RT @PrettyMeStarr: White People’(s) Call Police , Black People’(s) Call There Cousin



And no, this doesn't make him a horrible thug, but my point is that it definitely paints a less angelic picture.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44):
Whatever-----Trayvon did not deserve to die and Zimmerman will now have to live with it. Two souls have died.

As I said as well...there was a sense of racial profiling in this case. I don't think if TM was white he would have been followed, that's what I think



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5552 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 45):
And clearly, this guy wasn't the angel the media tried to portray him as. Here are some gems from Martin's Twitter account.

Absolutely irrelevant. The type of person he is makes him no more or less deserving of getting shot.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2390 posts, RR: 13
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5539 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
The system is made that we would rather have 10 guilty men out free than one innocent man in jail.

This is true, and the system also has to stay that way.    


...but, if had Zimmermann acted responsibly, neither he nor Martin would be dead now. He should have been convicted of criminal negligence at least. But because pulling a firearm during a crime results in a 10-year sentence in Florida, the jury didn't want to convict him. At last IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-20-Life


David

[Edited 2013-07-14 07:13:38]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5533 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 4):
Why riot when you can light up my Facebook feed with your opinion? In the past twenty minutes I've counted over thirty posts regarding the verdict.

Only the news type organzations on my FB have been talking. My FB friends (the ones that post political stuff) have been quiet.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 12):
Wrong, there was a good case to be had against Zimmerman, Prosecutors screwed the pooch on this one.

I think a case could have been made for man-slaughter. In fact, had the prosecution set out to make a case for man-slaughter instead of 2nd murder, they may have gotten it.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 16):
I agree, still doesn't change the fact that GZ put himself in the situation that night that ended so badly. I'm a gun owner, i'm pro gun and I still think how he put himself in that situation was wrong just saying...

Agreed. My biggest sticking point is that he got out of the car after calling the police. The call to the police indicated that he felt that Martin was some kind of a threat. Yet, he got out of his car. Granted, he did nothing illegal in getting out of his car, but he escalated the situation.

Here, the law says that "stand your ground" does not apply

"... when the defendant is wanton or reckless in bringing about a situation requiring the conduct described in subsection (1), the justification afforded by this section is unavailable in a prosecution for any offense for which wantonness or recklessness, as the case may be, suffices to establish culpability.

I haven't been able to find the actual text of the FL laws in question.

So, while I'm ok with the verdict, I can certainly see where the prosecution should have gone for man-slaughter right from the out-set. (assuming FL law reads like KY law).

Disclaimer: I have not seen one little bit of this trial nor have I read the other thread concerning the trial.

I believe "stand your ground" laws are necessary and right...but, I also believe that anyone taking defense under those laws need to be on solid footing.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13092 posts, RR: 12
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

George Zimmerman was on trial here, not Trayvon Martin. The discussions in the media of Martin's life other than the moment that Zimmerman chose to follow him are not and should not be considered by the court.

Like some have discussed the Stand Your Ground law does need to be amended to more narrowly define the level of use of force vs that of the person you are confronting.

On Friday night, I saw the movie 'Glory Road', the story of the famous 1960'sTexas Western College (now UTEP)basketball team that won the NCAA Championship with 5 black starters, a time barely after the end of the legal racial segregation in the south. In the film, the black players (and to some extent the white players and the coaches) were subject to brutal racist attacks. The players wanted to 'smash some cracker heads' in reaction to the violence upon them depicted in the movie, but cooler heads prevailed. Martin's grave mistake may have been that he reacted to 'a cracker' harassing him, something I suspect he as a young black male faced too many times so in his youth and experience, so decided to retaliate for that treatment one too many times. In his case, it led to a confrontation leading to his death.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19600 posts, RR: 58
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5462 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
He does?

Yes he does. More than one arrest, IIRC, for domestic violence.

Don't worry. Mr. Zimmerman is now a marked man.

He is "free," but he will live out his remaining days in hiding...or he will be dead. His smile at his "not guilty" verdict seemed so broad... apparently he didn't stop to think that he is now recognized. He can't just pop out to the store ever again. Someone is going to get into an argument with him and then they are going to "stand their ground."


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20561 posts, RR: 62
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5424 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
He is "free," but he will live out his remaining days in hiding...or he will be dead.

Quick, without using Google, who tortured and killed Matthew Shepard?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 818 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 47):
Absolutely irrelevant. The type of person he is makes him no more or less deserving of getting shot.

Irrelevant to the case, yes.

Extremely relevant outside the court of law, however.



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19600 posts, RR: 58
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 52):
Quick, without using Google, who tortured and killed Matthew Shepard?

I forget their names, but I know they are both in prison for life.

If they'd got off scott-free, then they'd be marked men.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7149 posts, RR: 9
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5333 times:

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 41):

The media made it different. Most young black males who are killed in violence are killed by other young black males. This was different. Trayvon was not armed, Zimmerman was first reported to be a white American and the DA did not immediately want to arrest Zimmerman. Which IMO was the right call. Once this got to the national media it became a problem about race and justice.

I find it ironic that the state of Florida when through hoops to try to convict Zimmerman. They did more than usual and black communities are claiming injustice and a racist system. Even those the governent did everything in its power to put Zimmerman away.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 48):
but, if had Zimmermann acted responsibly, neither he nor Martin would be dead now. He should have been convicted of criminal negligence at least. But because pulling a firearm during a crime results in a 10-year sentence in Florida, the jury didn't want to convict him. At last IMHO

Jury has no idea what sentencing guidelines would look like or be. So that should not be the reason and they are instructed that they don't take sentencing in consideration at all.

Everyone here realizes that there was NO Stand Your Ground hearing. that the words of Stand Your Ground was not in the jury instructions and never mentioned in court right besides for trying to attack zimmermans credibilty. This was a self defense case which would have happened in all 50 states. Common law stuff. Stand Your Ground gives people immunity. He never got that. This was NOT a Stand Your Ground case everyone.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13092 posts, RR: 12
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 54):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 52):Quick, without using Google, who tortured and killed Matthew Shepard?
I forget their names, but I know they are both in prison for life.

If they'd got off scott-free, then they'd be marked men.

The mother of one of Shepard's attackers was an alcoholic who died of exposure on a mid-winters night was let out of a car on a distant country road, with only a light jacket.
Shepard's death became another tragedy that led to bringing out to the public the anti-gay hate out there but also led a dialog to improve the lives of GLTB's.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20561 posts, RR: 62
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5316 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 54):
I forget their names

Precisely. I only remember one was named Henderson because a friend was living in Henderson, NV at the time, and one had a name of Irish origin, but beyond Mc, I've not a clue without looking it up. And these were names in the regular and gay media constantly for a long time.

I give it a maximum of ten years and it'll be "Zimmer-who?". "Oh yeah, that guy in Florida or something."

His name will forever live on in internet searches when people look for his history for a job interview or housing application, but beyond that, he'll live a fairly normal life after a while, and won't be recognized on the street as his features change with weight fluctuations and age.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5301 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 48):
He should have been convicted of criminal negligence at least.

But he was not charged with that crime.

The prosecution charged him with second degree murder - because they though they could prove that case (and maybe some political pressure behind that level of charge).

At the last minute the prosecution added manslaughter as a possible charge - probably because they were trying to get something out of a case they knew they were losing.

This is the United States. It was founded by people with a long experience of governments that took away people's freedom without due process, trials - even sometimes executing people for the crime of being different.

They built in very strong protections for those accused of crimes into our Constitution and early laws.

The prosecution has to make a charge and take it to trial. They pick their best chance of a conviction.

And if they cannot prove their case beyond a resonable double - the defendant is found not guilty.

You really don't want to live in a country where the justice system doesn't work like that.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2972 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5300 times:

Hopefully cable news channels will start covering things that actually matter now that this damn trial is over...


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5285 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 55):
Stand Your Ground gives people immunity. He never got that. This was NOT a Stand Your Ground case everyone.

Disagree. Stand Your Ground laws provide an affirmative defense in the case of self defense.

Just recall, that initially, Zimmermann was not to be charged, but political pressure was brought (locally and nationally) and, here we are.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8839 posts, RR: 24
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5287 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 50):
George Zimmerman was on trial here, not Trayvon Martin.
OK, let's look at that angle.

A lot of people have their panties in a wad about Zimmerman getting out of his car. I.e. "getting involved", and while not an action that led directly to Martin's death, it instigated a sequence of events.

From we know for a fact that Zimmerman lost contact with Martin for a few minutes, around the time that Zimmerman was asked (not ordered) not to continue following. The Jury, with all the evidence before them, apparently believed that Zimmerman broke off his search and after looking for a street address, headed back to his car to wait for the cops to show up.

How about Martin's choices? After losing his tail, he could have simply gone home, which was just a short distance away. instead he decided to seek out and confront whoever had been following him.

So yes, Zimmerman started the whole thing, but backed off. Martin chose to re-engage rather than walk away.

Ask yourself - why would somebody who is armed and knows that police are minutes away chose to get into a fistfight with someone? You lose the upper hand. The guy might have a knife or a gun as well. Any half-way rational person would chose to keep his distance.

So, some of you will say (without any evidence - just fueled by prejudice and hatred) that Zimmerman was not that rational, and that he attacked Martin physically in spite of having a gun available. Now that's just stupid.

Like I've said before, both men made poor choices that night that brought them face to face with each other, but at least Zimmerman apparently chose to try to back off. Martin did not.

If Zimmerman had died and Martin survived, I think he would have been convicted because he had the chance to back off, and did not, and chose to attack.

A little more news...

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/san.../-/12ro846z/-/index.html?showAds=0

Sanford police surround community where George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin

The NAACP tweeted after the verdict, saying, "Zimmerman acquitted on all charges. We will update you as we work to pursue civil rights charges against Zimmerman through the DOJ."

So it's not over for Zimmerman yet. I have little doubt that Holder and Obama will support filing federal charges, after they helped ferment this whole issue into a racial issue. The blood,if it flows, will be on Obama's and Holder's hands as they helped politicize the whole damn thing, actually sending folks down from Washington to encourage and to organize demonstrations, and encouraging the media. This was the president who promised to end reference to race in the USA. He has done nothing but the contrary.

[Edited 2013-07-14 09:27:27]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5243 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 61):
So, some of you will say (without any evidence - just fueled by prejudice and hatred) that Zimmerman was not that rational, and that he attacked Martin physically in spite of having a gun available. Now that's just stupid.

One of the more important questions here is, how does a man with a "resisting arrest" charge and a restraining order in his background, get a CCW permit? I know here in CT, you have so much as a loitering charge and your record and it's next to impossible to get one...i'm Florida doesn't think that way

As I said before, if GZ didn't have a gun, he would NOT have pursued TM. Florida needs to look at their CCW permit bylaws



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19600 posts, RR: 58
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5229 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 57):
I give it a maximum of ten years and it'll be "Zimmer-who?". "Oh yeah, that guy in Florida or something."

I very much doubt it.

#1) There are a lot more black people in this country than there are gay people.
#2) The idea of profiling by appearance doesn't really apply to gays; we're as obvious as we want to be.
#3) Mr. Shepard's killers didn't get off.
#4) Racism is a lot less acceptable than homophobia, and that was certainly even more true in 1998 when racism was as unacceptable as it was now, but homophobia was literally institutionalized.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 62):
One of the more important questions here is, how does a man with a "resisting arrest" charge and a restraining order in his background, get a CCW permit?

And that is a very good question and relates to the "sensible restrictions" issue that got shot down in D.C.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8839 posts, RR: 24
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 62):
As I said before, if GZ didn't have a gun, he would NOT have pursued TM.

And if his mama hadn't gotten pregnant, he would never have been born, and thus would have never pursued Martin.

Pointless point, and pure supposition. How do you know he would not have followed unarmed, if his intention was simply to observe and report.

[Edited 2013-07-14 09:53:36]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19600 posts, RR: 58
Reply 65, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
Pointless point, and pure supposition. How do you know he would not have followed unarmed, if his intention was simply to observe and report.

Because men like him who beat women (for example) will not enter into a confrontation unless they have the monopoly on power.

This is common criminal psychology, not exactly rocket science. Mr. Zimmerman was not interested in a fair fight.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
This is common criminal psychology, not exactly rocket science. Mr. Zimmerman was not interested in a fair fight.

Again, unless you were there (which you weren't), you have no idea what was going through his or Trayvons mind. You have allowed your emotions to take hold instead of looking at the facts.

[Edited 2013-07-14 10:18:21]

User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20561 posts, RR: 62
Reply 67, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5182 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 63):
I very much doubt it.

Well, we'll see in another 10 years. I just IM'd the name "Yates" to 3 people and asked what the name was famous for without looking it up. One associated it with murder, but wasn't quite sure about the whole story.

Yet the name Andrea Yates had wall-to-wall coverage for the horrifying act of drowning her 5 children just as recently as 2001, and went through two lengthy trials, before being declared not guilty by reason of insanity.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8839 posts, RR: 24
Reply 68, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5173 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
Because men like him who beat women (for example) will not enter into a confrontation unless they have the monopoly on power.

Where did you hear that he beat anyone? I've been looking into his 2005 altercation with his ex-GF, and it looks like a relationship gone wrong - both parties got awarded restraining orders. How do you know she didn't hit him first? How do you know anyone got hit at all? I can't find any article giving any details.

Sounds like your own prejudices showing through.

Correction: A little more digging, and I found this:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/..._1_petitions-documents-injunctions

Looks like they were both a bit feisty. But it hardly looks like Zimmerman was a habitual woman-beater who like the girl cowering in a corner. She seemed to give as good as she got. I still think you are jumping to conclusions.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
This is common criminal psychology, not exactly rocket science. Mr. Zimmerman was not interested in a fair fight.

Read this background - Since you like to play amateur shrink, it gives you an idea of what was going on in the neighborhood at the time.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ng-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5160 times:

Some thoughts from reading through the thread:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 16):
I'm a gun owner, i'm pro gun and I still think how he put himself in that situation was wrong just saying...

That bothered me from the word go. Zimmerman brought a lot of this trouble on himself.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
Remember, he wasn't even arrested for 44 days!!!!

Somewhat but not completely inexcusable. In the end there was a dead unarmed kid and there had to be a trial.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25):
most people were only "pretty sure" he was guilty

That was my opinion but I didn't follow it closely enough to be certain. I thought Murder Two was a political over reach.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
Considering the judge let the prosecution slip in a manslaughter charge at the last minute

That was how it should have been charged from the beginning. Still that's how the legal system works. They could have slipped in assault and battery too.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 27):
To tell you the truth, I am just very glad this is over!

Amen!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
I'm not happy about this "stand-your-ground" law

Zimmerman may have claimed that to avoid arrest but it was not his defense at trial so this case does nothing pro or con there.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
the media starts calling him a "White Hispanic"

I never knew that's what I was until now. Who knew?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 52):
Quick, without using Google, who tortured and killed Matthew Shepard?

I have no idea but how would we have felt if Matthew had shot them instead?


User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
Pointless point, and pure supposition. How do you know he would not have followed unarmed, if his intention was simply to observe and report.

Are you serious? My statement lies in the fact that TM is now dead, after a man who was losing a fist fight decided to use deadly force. He would not haven't followed him, would not have gotten out of the car and certainly would not have had the opportunity to shoot TM, had there not been a gun present. But i guess that's his fault though for not knowing how to fight fair



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 71, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5149 times:

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 69):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
Remember, he wasn't even arrested for 44 days!!!!

Somewhat but not completely inexcusable. In the end there was a dead unarmed kid and there had to be a trial.

If evidence of a crime is not immediately obvious - a delay in the arrest until a grand jury indictment is completely normal and understandable.

Here in the DFW area - on the night of June 15 - four people were killed in a stupid traffic crash.

A young lady had stopped with car trouble (age 24). A man (age 41) stopped to help. A mother and her daughter (ages 42 and 21) who live near came out to help.

A pickup truck came roaring down the two lane road and plowed into the people helping. All four of those were killed.

There were eight people in the pickup truck under age 20. None with seat belts. Three were in the bed of the truck - which is illegal in Texas.

The driver of the pickup truck is a 16 year old. Who was driving on a restricted license which allows him to carry only one other person under age 21 who is not a relative. None of the passengers were his relatives.

He has one prior driving offense of speed, and one offense of possession of alcohol as a minor.

Blood test came back and his BAC was 0.24 - three times the 0.08 limit for drivers over age 21.

The investigation showed he was traveling near 70 mph in a 45 zone.

He has NOT been arrested or charged.

Why not you might say?

Because I guarantee you that the police and prosecutor are working to make sure they have an ironclad case against him, and despite his age - enough evidence to try him as an adult and lock him away for a very long time.

Sometimes the process takes time.

That is what the prosecutors tried to do in the Zimmerman case and the reason for the delay in the arrest.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8839 posts, RR: 24
Reply 72, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5102 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 70):
He would not haven't followed him, would not have gotten out of the car and certainly would not have had the opportunity to shoot TM, had there not been a gun present.

Complete and utter speculation and worth as much as a full spittoon.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 73, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5099 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 70):
He would not haven't followed him, would not have gotten out of the car

You absolutely know that? Is your middle name Kreskin?

Did the prosecution ask that question? Had I been the prosecutor, I would have.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 70):
But i guess that's his fault though for not knowing how to fight fair

Fighting fair is a concept that should be foreign to everyone. In a fight, you use every advantage you have, and exploit your opponents' perceived disadvantages.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44):
If this were not politically motivated then why did the mainstream media constantly show the public an old photo of Trayvon as a cute little 12 year old with a hoodie on?

And they so conveniently chose to ignore photographs of him displaying weaponry, lewd gestures, possible drug use, and other pictures that show him as many things other than a sweet and innocent boy in a hoodie.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 59):
Hopefully cable news channels will start covering things that actually matter now that this damn trial is over...

Not likely. We live in a society that made writing The Hunger Games easy. People, especially stupid ones, eat this stuff up because they have nothing better to do.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 63):
#2) The idea of profiling by appearance doesn't really apply to gays; we're as obvious as we want to be.

An awesomely profound statement, which once I thought about it for a minute might explain why "tolerance" towards same-sex marriage is moving much quicker in this country than racial equality. The good little WASPs very quickly found out that this particular aspect of society was just as much their children as any other group's.

As for the people who have mentioned that Zimmerman should have waited until the police came, excluding the obvious result of the altercation, I only ask what you would do in a situation whereby your home has been repeatedly vandalized by punks who get a kick out of being a punk? More often than not they get off with just a slap on the wrist, if they're even identified at all.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19600 posts, RR: 58
Reply 75, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5083 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 68):
Read this background - Since you like to play amateur shrink, it gives you an idea of what was going on in the neighborhood at the time.

What was going on in the neighborhood has nothing to do with Mr. Zimmerman's history of a DUI, domestic violence, and resisting arrest. There is also an allegation by a younger cousin of his that he repeatedly molested her from the time she was six (and he eight) until he was 16. He was never convicted of any of these things. Such is the way of the American Justice system.

One or two accusations may be nothing. When they keep popping up, a pattern emerges. This is a man who enjoys using physical superiority on others. We call them "bullies" in my work (I'll point out that I am no amateur) and we take them very seriously.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 76, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5079 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 74):
, I only ask what you would do in a situation whereby your home has been repeatedly vandalized by punks who get a kick out of being a punk? More often than not they get off with just a slap on the wrist, if they're even identified at all.

That argues more for the 'vigilante' or 'wanna-be cop' tag that folks have been hanging on Zimmerman since the beginning.

To answer your question...you call the police and wait. There was no immediate threat.

Like I said, I'm troubled by the fact that he left the car after calling the police. He placed himself (unknowingly?) into a position of danger. It places a small nugget of doubt in my mind.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20561 posts, RR: 62
Reply 77, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 74):
An awesomely profound statement, which once I thought about it for a minute might explain why "tolerance" towards same-sex marriage is moving much quicker in this country than racial equality.

Women can almost immediately out a gay man. We don't talk to their breasts. That's been going on for eternity.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 76):
To answer your question...you call the police and wait. There was no immediate threat.

Until the police come, and the offender is gone, and you still have damage to your home that keeps happening.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5602 posts, RR: 6
Reply 79, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
Yes he does. More than one arrest, IIRC, for domestic violence.

False.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 62):

One of the more important questions here is, how does a man with a "resisting arrest" charge and a restraining order in his background, get a CCW permit?

The criminal charges were dropped, and the restraining order went both ways.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
Because men like him who beat women

Any evidence to back that up?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 80, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5039 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 78):
Until the police come, and the offender is gone, and you still have damage to your home that keeps happening.

Then you go to your home and wait there. Regardless of what's happening, you don't get to make your own justice.

I'm not saying Zimmerman did that here, but he made a bad decision, compounded by a mistake by Martin, that cost one person his life...and may well have ruined another.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19600 posts, RR: 58
Reply 81, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 79):
Any evidence to back that up?

Not enough to convict, but I am not a court. But two different women alleging abuse at different times is enough for me.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 79):
False.

I stand corrected. There is one prior arrest on three charges. They were dropped.

Know what? I've never been arrested even once.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 76):
Like I said, I'm troubled by the fact that he left the car after calling the police. He placed himself (unknowingly?) into a position of danger. It places a small nugget of doubt in my mind.

I very much disagree. He knowingly placed himself in danger. If he thought that Trayvon was suspicious enough to call the police, then by definition he knew he might be endangering himself if he followed. He did so. Why? Because he had a gun and so figured that he could win any fight that way... which was the unsurprising result.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 78):
Until the police come, and the offender is gone, and you still have damage to your home that keeps happening.

Was he at his home? No. If Trayvon had been shot while trespassing, I'd be a lot less disappointed in this verdict.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8839 posts, RR: 24
Reply 82, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5027 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 75):
There is also an allegation by a younger cousin of his that he repeatedly molested her from the time she was six (and he eight) until he was 16. He was never convicted of any of these things. Such is the way of the American Justice system.

When I was a kid we called that "playing doctor". C'mon, Doc, 8-years old? Most guys that age still think girls have cooties.

And if you are that interested in exploring Zimmerman's past, how about going into Martin's past? Wanna drag that up? He was hardly an angel.

But, appropriately, these were irrelevant to the trial.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5602 posts, RR: 6
Reply 83, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5012 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 82):

And if you are that interested in exploring Zimmerman's past, how about going into Martin's past? Wanna drag that up? He was hardly an angel.

This.

If you want to pull up Zimmerman's past to convict him, you do the same to Martin. If you want to criticize Zimmerman's actions, you do the same to Martin.

If you feel Zimmerman was guilty of even manslaughter for his actions, then you must also convict Martin. The way things happened, either both are guilty of a crime, or both are innocent.

All these people calling for Zimmerman's head have either one of two opinions: that Martin was completely innocent (which is false), or that Zimmerman should have taken his beating (which is just dumb).



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 73):
Fighting fair is a concept that should be foreign to everyone. In a fight, you use every advantage you have, and exploit your opponents' perceived disadvantages.

Well...hells bells, I lost a few fights when I was a kid. Maybe since I have a firearm now I should go looking for the guys I lost to and provoke another fight, this way if i'm losing I can use deadly force after all I am using an advantage  
Quoting luckyone (Reply 78):
Until the police come, and the offender is gone, and you still have damage to your home that keeps happening.

So that's a reason to kill an unarmed person? Civilians are NOT supposed to take the law into their own hand PERIOD! I don't care what the circumstances are. Self defense is another issue, but ask any LEO and they will tell you this.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4995 posts, RR: 19
Reply 85, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):
Maybe since I have a firearm now I should go looking for the guys I lost to and provoke another fight, this way if i'm losing I can use deadly force after all I am using an advantage

Better watch it, there ARE people out there who think exactly like this. I know you are just using this as an example in an argument but still.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4989 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):
So that's a reason to kill an unarmed person?

All I said was to address getting out of the car in the chance of better-identifying the person. I said nothing about him shooting the guy. And I went so far as to EXCLUDE the outcome. Good god why don't people read.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 80):
Then you go to your home and wait there. Regardless of what's happening, you don't get to make your own justice.

I'm sorry, but it's that type of attitude that lets people get run over. You don't have to create your own justice, but you don't have to let somebody stick it to you.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 87, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4990 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):
Well...hells bells, I lost a few fights when I was a kid. Maybe since I have a firearm now I should go looking for the guys I lost to and provoke another fight, this way if i'm losing I can use deadly force after all I am using an advantage

I certainly hope that's tongue in cheek.

Maybe you lost some of those fights because you didn't kick your opponents in the balls when you had a chance...you know, to be fair.   

I carry a gun just about everywhere I go. I don't pick fights. I don't get into arguments and my wife says I've become a more courteous driver. I most certainly wouldn't have gotten out of my car if I had been in Mr. Zimmerman's position.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5602 posts, RR: 6
Reply 88, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4984 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):

So that's a reason to kill an unarmed person?

No. A good reason to kill an "unarmed" person is that their otherwise illegal actions would likely result in someone getting seriously hurt or killed.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):
Civilians are NOT supposed to take the law into their own hand PERIOD!

We're not talking about "taking the law" into our own hands, we're talking about the right to protect yourself and your property. Zimmerman was protecting property when he was calling the police, and he was defending himself when he was attacked.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):
but ask any LEO and they will tell you this.

When a LEO has the power to override 250 years of Constitutional law, I'll listen to them.

There's LEOs out there that claim it's illegal to record them. Doesn't mean that it is, or that they can be allowed to do anything about it.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4950 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 86):
All I said was to address getting out of the car in the chance of better-identifying the person.

Still not his place, sorry but you're not gonna find a good reason for him to have been following Martin, simple as that

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 87):
I carry a gun just about everywhere I go. I don't pick fights. I don't get into arguments and my wife says I've become a more courteous driver. I most certainly wouldn't have gotten out of my car if I had been in Mr. Zimmerman's position.

Same here, so why did he?

I've actually been in a situation where a guy was dealing with his drunk girlfriend and her friends. Me and a friend of mine were just leaving the restaurant parking lot when the guy and his girl began to fight. Could I have gotten involved? Of course, but instead I called the cops and I waited from a safe distance and you know what, they got there pretty damn fast too. It is not your place to take the law into your hands, that's how people get hurt.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 88):
We're not talking about "taking the law" into our own hands, we're talking about the right to protect yourself and your property. Zimmerman was protecting property when he was calling the police, and he was defending himself when he was attacked.

Protecting property from what? The black teenager in a hoody with a can of ice tea and skittles in his pocket? Come on now. There was no evidence then, there's still no evidence now that proves Trayvon Martin went out that night to steal anything or burglarize anyone. Furthermore he wasn't even protecting his own property so what are you talking about?



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 90, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4917 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 89):
Same here, so why did he?


Because he erred in judgement?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 89):
Still not his place, sorry but you're not gonna find a good reason for him to have been following Martin, simple as that


Actually, there are good reasons for Zimmerman to follow Martin and good reasons for him not to have followed Martin. That's the nature of decision making. It's my opinion that Zimmerman erred in judgement...and that error, compounded by errors on Martin's part cost Martin his life.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 89):
Furthermore he wasn't even protecting his own property so what are you talking about?


Actually, Maverick623 wrote that Zimmerman was

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 88):
protecting property when he was calling the police


not protecting his property. If he were protecting his property, there probably wouldn't have even been a trial.

[Edited 2013-07-14 13:32:41]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 91, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4867 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 89):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 90):

I agree, more or less, with what you both are saying, but what would your verdict be? (I know neither of us were in the courtroom so I know there will be a large margin of error in any opinions we have.)

I think Zimmerman was poking his head where he shouldn't have been, race actually may have been a factor (as in Zimmerman may have subconsciously been more suspicious of a black teen) but there still existed enough doubt for a not guilty verdict.

In fact, had Martin bashed in Zimmerman's head hard enough to kill him, I think there would also have been a not guilty verdict... I'd see enough doubt on that end as well.

Moving forward to prevent this incident from happening again will be hard. I think both men were confrontational... that is very hard to legislate, it's more of a cultural thing



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5602 posts, RR: 6
Reply 92, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4867 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 89):
Still not his place, sorry but you're not gonna find a good reason for him to have been following Martin, simple as that
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 89):
I've actually been in a situation where a guy was dealing with his drunk girlfriend and her friends. Me and a friend of mine were just leaving the restaurant parking lot when the guy and his girl began to fight. Could I have gotten involved? Of course, but instead I called the cops and I waited from a safe distance and you know what, they got there pretty damn fast too. It is not your place to take the law into your hands, that's how people get hurt.

You can argue that what Zimmerman did was a bad idea, and you may not even be wrong.

What you can't argue is that what he did was in any way illegal, or made him criminally responsible for Martin being shot. I would consider it a stretch to even consider him civilly liable, but unfortunately that standard of proof is far lower.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 93, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4859 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 63):
#1) There are a lot more black people in this country than there are gay people.

I've heard 12% of the population are black and 10% are gay. Not quite a LOT more.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 87):
Maybe you lost some of those fights because you didn't kick your opponents in the balls when you had a chance...you know, to be fair.

Maybe some of his opponents weren't born with balls.     



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4861 times:

,

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 81):
Why? Because he had a gun and so figured that he could win any fight that way... which was the unsurprising result.

Really. So what you're implying is that, like you, George Zimmerman can read minds and has X-ray vision to notice that Trayvon Martin was unarmed. I'm just glad that all you emotional people with your prejudged biases were not on this jury because that would have been the biggest travesty of all. Thank God there were six level headed women on this jury who were presented the facts and made their decision to acquit based solely on these facts and not "what ifs". If you all want to ponder on something and come up with your what ifs, then ask yourself this, George Zimmerman had called the police on numerous occasions in the past regarding suspicious looking people and was probably armed at the time also. What was so different this time versus any of the other times? Do you really think that Trayvon Martin would have assaulted George Zimmerman if he knew he was armed. Do you really believe that GZ knew whether TM was armed or not. Is keeping an eye on someone you deem suspicious and have called the police on a crime. Is getting out of your car a crime. Is describing a person to the dispatcher by the color of their skin and what they are wearing considered racist or profiling.For that matter is profiling by an individual about another a crime. Is having a CCW a crime. George Zimmerman is only guilty of poor judgment and nothing more. Trayvon Martin is guilty of poor judgment and nothing more. It's sad that a young man had to die over suspicions they held about each other, George thinking Trayvon was up to no good and calling the police,and Trayvon believing George was a "crazy white cracker" and assaulting him. Had GZ just approached TM and asked him if he lived in the community or TM just stopped GZ and asked why he was being followed, the outcome probably would have been entirely different. All the speculations and so called mind reading that some of you are doing may bring you comfort in your prejudices and biases about this case, but there is only one truth now, one man is dead and the other mans life is ruined and all of your speculations, suspicions and lynch mob mentality isn't going to change that. If there needs to be changes to the stand your ground law ,then let the citizens of the State of Florida decide. He was acquitted by a jury of his peers. like it or not.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 95, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4849 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 91):
I agree, more or less, with what you both are saying, but what would your verdict be?

Like I said, based on what I've heard in the media...man slaughter. But, I haven't seen one second of the trial...except for a couple of snippets of the prosecutions closing argument.

Had I been in the courtroom or watched the footage, I may have easily been swayed to "not guilty".

Based on what I've heard, I can't make the leap to murder 2.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 96, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4848 times:

Looks like Zimmerman is moving to sue NBC for the edited 911 call. Truth be told, I didn't really follow this case too much, but seeing the 911 call (before an after the edit) I'm shocked. I can't believe how disgustingly deceitful NBC acted and I hope they lose a big sum of money.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...yer-to-move-asap-against-nbc-news/

Here is the 911 call before and after the edit. I know many people don't trust FOX but I'd find it hard for people to disagree with FOX on this point at least, check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivAqfrx1CHY

Unbelievable



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflyingclrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4812 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
Zimmerman, while having a "white-ish" name, isn't even white!!
I hear about mexicans shooting blacks all the time in Arizona, and vice versa. I've also heard of a Latino guy somewhere who shot a black guy who broke into his house. The Black guy died, and the Latino was not prosecuted.

If someone breaks into your home, you're justified to use lethal force in many states including Texas and Arizona.


User currently offlineflyingclrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 58):
The prosecution charged him with second degree murder - because they though they could prove that case (and maybe some political pressure behind that level of charge).

He was charged with second degree murder, because that was the highest charge the prosecutor could file without going in front of a grand jury. I think a grand jury would have refused to indict Zimmerman.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1917 posts, RR: 21
Reply 99, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 69):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
Considering the judge let the prosecution slip in a manslaughter charge at the last minute

That was how it should have been charged from the beginning. Still that's how the legal system works. They could have slipped in assault and battery too.


Not expressing an opinion about it either way, but having an additional charge thrown in at the last minute definitely increased their workload.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 69):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
the media starts calling him a "White Hispanic"

I never knew that's what I was until now. Who knew?


Go figure. You're a minority when they want you to be, and and a non-minority when they want you to be.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
I can't believe how disgustingly deceitful NBC acted and I hope they lose a big sum of money.

That was one of the aspects that really angered me about this whole affair, it's difficult for me to remember a time when the media were so blatant and overt in their attempts at constantly trying to fit a racial narrative over the case. Race is a serious and sensitive issue in this country and it was wholly irresponsible of them to continually try and put a racist spin on it despite the facts. Equally shocking though is that even after NBC was chastised for this editing, the NY Times also went ahead with some clever editing in print with the following description of the 911 call:

Quote:
“Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood,” Mr. Zimmerman said to start the conversation with the dispatcher. “And there’s a real suspicious guy.”

This guy seemed to be up to no good; like he was on drugs or something; in a gray hoodie. Asked to describe him further, he said, “He looks black.”


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 100, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4721 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
the NY Times also went ahead with some clever editing in print with the following description of the 911 call:

Wow. Just a question, the President's remark about Trayvon looking a son he never had or whatever, is it Kosher to comment on an on going trial like that?

I think CNN will get sued for putting Zimmerman's SSN on the air. I doubt it was intentional, but it's the same careless, wreckless reporting our media is so good at doing, and I hope they pay for it



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 101, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4691 times:

KTVU in Oakland has just released the names of the jurors:

Mary Whitepower

Cindy Crossinyard

Amy Killdarky

Jessica Klan



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 102, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4667 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 100):
is it Kosher to comment on an on going trial like that?

It might possibly have been used as part of an appeal focused on not being able to get a fair jury. That would be a stretch and likely wouldn't work.

President Nixon was criticized for saying Charles Manson was "guilty, directly or indirectly, of eight murders without reason' at a law enforcement conference in Denver in 1970. He was supposed to use the word alleged in front of the word guilty.

He quickly issued a statement "The last thing I would do is prejudice the legal rights of any person, in any circumstances. To set the record straight, I do not know and did not intend to speculate as to whether the Tate defendants are guilty, in fact or not."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...J&sjid=MrYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=842,1500207

Manson stood up in court the next day and showed the jury a newspaper with the headline "MANSON GUILTY, NIXON DECLARES"

The trial was interrupted for a defense motion demanding a mis-trial. All the jurors were questioned about what they thought of the headline, and how they felt about it.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7149 posts, RR: 9
Reply 103, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 60):
Disagree. Stand Your Ground laws provide an affirmative defense in the case of self defense.

An affirmative defense they never used. So how was this a SYG case?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 60):
Just recall, that initially, Zimmermann was not to be charged, but political pressure was brought (locally and nationally) and, here we are.

As was the correct decision. The evidence was not there. And to think that someone can be charged by a prosecutor because of political pressure is disgusting and very very scary.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 61):
So it's not over for Zimmerman yet. I have little doubt that Holder and Obama will support filing federal charges, after they helped ferment this whole issue into a racial issue.

I don't see them getting into this. They have no case and it would just look bad.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 70):
Are you serious? My statement lies in the fact that TM is now dead, after a man who was losing a fist fight decided to use deadly force. He would not haven't followed him, would not have gotten out of the car and certainly would not have had the opportunity to shoot TM, had there not been a gun present. But i guess that's his fault though for not knowing how to fight fair
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):
Maybe since I have a firearm now I should go looking for the guys I lost to and provoke another fight, this way if i'm losing I can use deadly force after all I am using an advantage

No. You would be charged with Murder. And not even Murder 2 you would get Murder 1. You provoked the fight and you are planning it. So that example is pretty far off.
I don't think many think Zimmerman went to track down Trayvon and kill him. Many think he profiled him but there is nothing there to say he wanted to kill him when he saw him. We have zero idea who started the fight but the little evidence we have leans towards Martin starting the physical altercation. That is why Zimmerman is free.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):
So that's a reason to kill an unarmed person? Civilians are NOT supposed to take the law into their own hand PERIOD! I don't care what the circumstances are. Self defense is another issue, but ask any LEO and they will tell you this.
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 89):
Still not his place, sorry but you're not gonna find a good reason for him to have been following Martin, simple as that

That is all fine and dandy but it has nothing to do with the law. He broke no laws.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
I can't believe how disgustingly deceitful NBC acted and I hope they lose a big sum of money.

Agreed. He probably has a good civil case against many media organizations.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 104, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4621 times:

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 98):
because that was the highest charge the prosecutor could file without going in front of a grand jury. I think a grand jury would have refused to indict Zimmerman.

If the grand jury refused to indict - do what prosecutors from New York to Texas to California do - present the case to a different grand jury.

The one time I was on a grand jury in Dallas County for three months - the prosecutors presented us with two cases that I and several other members recognized has older - and no charges filed in the past. We ask the prosecutors about both.

For one - they said the other grand jury was 'faulty' in their decision. We no-billed that case.

The other - they said there was additional evidence. That one did get an indictment.

A grand jury isn't like a trial jury. The prosecutors can go back again and again until they get an indictment, or give up.

[Edited 2013-07-14 17:26:34]

User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 105, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 104):
If the grand jury refused to indict - do what prosecutors from New York to Texas to California do - present the case to a different grand jury.

Or you can indict the person who really violated some ones civil rights

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/201...cutor-indicted-for-falsifying.html

Angela Corey, Florida%u2019s state attorney and the special prosecutor tasked with making a case against George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin shooting has just been indicted by a grand jury for falsifying the arrest warrant and the complaint that led to Zimmerman being charged with the second-degree murder:

The indictment of Corey, which was handed down last week (see www.citizensgrandjury.com), charges Corey with intentionally withholding photographic evidence of the injuries to George Zimmerman%u2019shead in the warrant she allegedly rushed to issue under oath, in an effort to boost her reelection prospects. At the outset of this case, black activists such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who whipped up wrath against Zimmerman, demanded that he be charged with murder, after local police had thus far declined to arrest him pending investigation%u2026Continue reading at joshuapundit.blogspot.com

[Edited 2013-07-14 17:46:08]

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 106, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 61):
How about Martin's choices? After losing his tail, he could have simply gone home, which was just a short distance away. instead he decided to seek out and confront whoever had been following him.

Speculation on your part. We don't know Martin confronted Zimmerman. All we have is the word from the person who want it to be like that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 61):
How about Martin's choices? After losing his tail, he could have simply gone home, which was just a short distance away. instead he decided to seek out and confront whoever had been following him.

So yes, Zimmerman started the whole thing, but backed off. Martin chose to re-engage rather than walk away.

The same speculation from you again.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
Pointless point, and pure supposition. How do you know he would not have followed unarmed, if his intention was simply to observe and report.

Why are not other people allowed to speculate?

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 94):
George Zimmerman is only guilty of poor judgment and nothing more.

No, he is without a doubt responsible for initiating this string of events. The rest is speculation.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 94):
Trayvon Martin is guilty of poor judgment and nothing more.

Speculation. We don't know what Martin did or didn't do.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 94):
ll the speculations and so called mind reading that some of you are doing may bring you comfort in your prejudices and biases about this case

Hmm, you speculate and then you claim it is bad when other people do it...

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 94):
but there is only one truth now, one man is dead and the other mans life is ruined and all of your speculations, suspicions and lynch mob mentality isn't going to change that.

You miss that a lot of the people who constantly complain about there not being enough personal responsibility is now saying that the person who undoubtedly set this chain in motion is now said to not be responsible. One must ask why.

Quoting flymia (Reply 103):
You provoked the fight and you are planning it.

Zimmerman certainly provoked it.

Quoting flymia (Reply 103):
the little evidence we have leans towards Martin starting the physical altercation.

What evidence is that?

Quoting flymia (Reply 103):
That is why Zimmerman is free.

No, lack of evidence is why he is free.

Quoting flymia (Reply 103):
He broke no laws.

We don't know that. We know the jury didn't find it likely enough.


User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 84):

So that's a reason to kill an unarmed person? Civilians are NOT supposed to take the law into their own hand PERIOD! I don't care what the circumstances are. Self defense is another issue, but ask any LEO and they will tell you this.

So if a guy comes up, punches you in the face, gets on top of you and starts swinging you're just lay there and wait for the cops?

You're not going to be long for this planet.

[Edited 2013-07-14 18:32:59]

User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2972 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4536 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 74):
Not likely. We live in a society that made writing The Hunger Games easy. People, especially stupid ones, eat this stuff up because they have nothing better to do.

I know. I'm just hoping that the next stupidity everyone cares about will be somewhat more palatable that this.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6617 posts, RR: 9
Reply 109, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

I'll have only one comment, only in the US !

And not just the verdict, but also the show trial, the stand your ground law, the people going about with guns legally, the whole situation !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2536 posts, RR: 22
Reply 110, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4517 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
Mr. Zimmerman is now a marked man

No more so than O.J. was and nobody ever bothered to go after him. That POS is just languishing in jail for being a dumb-ass in general.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 61):
So it's not over for Zimmerman yet. I have little doubt that Holder and Obama will support filing federal charges, after they helped ferment this whole issue into a racial issue. The blood,if it flows, will be on Obama's and Holder's hands as they helped politicize the whole damn thing, actually sending folks down from Washington to encourage and to organize demonstrations, and encouraging the media. This was the president who promised to end reference to race in the USA. He has done nothing but the contrary.

Yes. Sad but true.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 111, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4478 times:

No speculations on my part

Quoting cmf (Reply 106):
No, he is without a doubt responsible for initiating this string of events.

Never said he didn't, which is why I said guilty of poor judgment on his part. Everything else was speculation, which is why he was acquitted

Quoting cmf (Reply 106):
Speculation. We don't know what Martin did or didn't do.

What is known is that Trayvon did assault GZ at some point, nobody disputes that. Again, guilty of poor judgment.


User currently offlineATCtower From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 542 posts, RR: 3
Reply 112, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4457 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 109):
I'll have only one comment, only in the US !

Only in the US? Lets see:

-July 1989 - FRANCE - A French farmer shot and killed 14 people including members of his family in the village of Luxiol, near the Swiss border. He was wounded and captured by police.

-September 1995 - FRANCE - A 16-year-old youth ran amok with a rifle in the town of Cuers, killing 16 people and then himself after an argument with his parents.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...be-article-1.1220608#ixzz2Z4xMdpfB

-Tours, France, Oct. 29, 2001: Four people were killed and ten wounded when a French railway worker started shooting at a busy intersection.

-Nanterre, France, March 27, 2002: A man killed eight city-council members after a council meeting.

-Lyon, France, March 19, 2009: Ten people injured when a man opened fire on a nursery school.

Yeah, that gun control in France is certainly keeping people safe!

How many of these shootings in ANY country occur where the offender should expect his victims to be armed? You didnt see the Ft Hood shooter break into the armory and start blasting away, it was a place on base where guns are prohibited!

This is not a gun problem or a nationality problem so to suggest that 'only in the US' only stands to make you look as ignorant and arrogant as 'the French'.

Until people are held accountable for their actions (which doesnt happen anymore), bad things will continue to happen.



By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 113, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4426 times:

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 112):

Sigh, I'm pro gun and even I think your post is completely dishonest. We have boatloads more gun violence, it doesn't even compare. No one is claiming we can reduce gun violence to 0, but that doesn't mean that we can work on fixing our state of affairs



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

So I am watching the news about this and I noticed that all the guests that are against this verdict are talking about how Trayvon was just going home with ice tea and skittles and he was a innocent victim. None of them mentioned that at one point in all this Trayvon was assaulting Zimmerman.


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8227 posts, RR: 8
Reply 115, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4408 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25):
Also, "you believing something" isn't proving anything. That's what it boiled down to, at best, most people were only "pretty sure" he was guilty but our justice system demands more than that

When a jury takes 16 hours there will be discussions & debates on the issues. Without any possible testimony from Mr. Martin the jury is left to "believe" this went one way or another. There was no "proof" that the killing went as Zimmerman said it did. Or one of the versions that he came up with. There were arguments by attorneys on both sides and the jury took 16 hours to figure out which one to believe.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
You sound like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who managed to start a media circus trying to make this a race thing.

I take this case down to several points. First, a white guy wearing the polo shirt & loafers would not have had Zimmerman go after him.

Second, Zimmerman didn't need to follow/stalk Martin - he had called 911 and could, SHOULD have left the situation t the police. I doubt if Martin would have been charged for possession of Skittles.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 28):
How about entering the gated community via the front door, not hoping a fence.

Short cut? He was returning from buying a drink & Skittles and probably took a short cut he has taken many times before.

So a simple question - have you ever taken a "legal short cut"?

Did he have a legal right to be in the community? Did he take a "short cut" after getting a drink & some Skittles? I guess a kid taking a short cut falls under the "it's OK to shoot" approach Zimmerman took.

Quoting flymia (Reply 29):
Because the jury did a good job

I believe that they did with the Judge's Instructions as well as the testimony available.

What I'd like to see is a jury news conference. Lawyers on both sides of the aisle like to talk to juries to see what impacted the verdicts. I believe a lot of people would be interested in the same information and it might hep to cool some anger in the country.

Quoting flymia (Reply 29):
Not against he law.

Which law? Civil Rights Violations is still a potential, and then there is the potential for a civil trial'

Quoting flymia (Reply 29):
Agreed. I would hire an immigration attorney and start looking for a country who would take him.

Really? First, what responsible country would take that guy & his gun. Maybe some third rate countries - like the ones who would take Snowden.

Second, where is he going to get the money to pay the immigration lawyers? He has his legal lawyers to pay and they will be first in line for the money. Then, of course, a civil trial like the OJ civil trial can take care of all money Zimmerman can get from books.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
So black people can't/don't wear polo shirts and loafers?

You missed a simple point: would Zimmerman have followed/stalked a white guy wearing the poll shirt & loafers. that addresses two simple profiling factors for Zimmerman to "go into action"

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 61):
but at least Zimmerman apparently chose to try to back off.

Getting out of his car is trying to back off?

And we only have the killer's word that he was trying to back off.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 61):
The blood,if it flows, will be on Obama's and Holder's hands as they helped politicize the whole damn thing

The blood has already been flowing - it was Martin's blood.

That was on Obama or Holden's hands - it was on Zimmerman's hands.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 61):
This was the president who promised to end reference to race in the USA.

Which he has done a reasonable job of achieving. The fact that Obama was re-elected demonstrates that as much as you hate to see it.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 62):
One of the more important questions here is, how does a man with a "resisting arrest" charge and a restraining order in his background, get a CCW permit?

He lives in Florida who has a right wing nut for a Governor. Not too impressed with all the cowboys and their guns, but the NRA funds guys like him. Makes it a dangerous place to live, as Martin discovered.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
Looks like Zimmerman is moving to sue NBC for the edited 911 call.

That keeps him in the public light - no way can he simply "disappear". Not a wise move for the killer who really needs a low profile.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
I can't believe how disgustingly deceitful NBC acted and I hope they lose a big sum of money.

He's going to need that money if Martin's family wins. Evidence rules are different in civil courts - for both NBC & Zimmerman. Evidence brought into ccivil court might even be transferred to CIvil Rights charges.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 116, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 112):
Yeah, that gun control in France is certainly keeping people safe!

You just cited 42 deaths in the last 24 years. We see that many in the US in a week. Even after adjusting for the difference in population, you have to admit that the French are a whole lot safer from gun violence than we are.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):

1. 16 hours for a not guilty in a high profile case and you take that to mean something?

2. There is no evidence to indicate this was racially motivated. Only the media, the usual suspects, and a narcissist President caused race to be an issue in this case.

The rest of your argument imploded thereafter.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1917 posts, RR: 21
Reply 118, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4370 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
There was no "proof" that the killing went as Zimmerman said it did.

Of course there was no "proof", but the little evidence that did exist corroborated Zimmerman's testimony (i.e. his injuries and the eye witness who saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman).

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
would Zimmerman have followed/stalked a white guy wearing the poll shirt & loafers. that addresses two simple profiling factors for Zimmerman to "go into action"

Says you, but unless you can read minds, you have no basis to make such a claim. Additionally, the point of my original comment is that I find it curious that you seem to feel you can't make your argument simply by saying, "if Trayvon had been white...", but instead have to apparently qualify it by saying, "if he was white AND wearing a polo shirt and loafers". A white guy wearing baggy clothes and a hoody would very easily have looked just as suspicious as a black guy wearing such clothes. But then that would make your racial profiling insinuation seem less plausible.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):

He lives in Florida who has a right wing nut for a Governor. Not too impressed with all the cowboys and their guns, but the NRA funds guys like him. Makes it a dangerous place to live, as Martin discovered.

Yeah, and Chicago, which is practically run carte blanche by the left, is such a paragon of public safety  



[Edited 2013-07-14 21:25:38]

[Edited 2013-07-14 22:11:17]

User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 119, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4364 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
He's going to need that money if Martin's family wins. Evidence rules are different in civil courts - for both NBC & Zimmerman

Sorry to burst your bubble Ken but I guess you missed this part, Mark O'Mara, George Zimmerman's defense attorney, said that they will 'seek and we will get' immunity from civil suits if any are 'spawned from this fiasco.'

And the DOJ should bring a violation of civil rights case, against Angela Corey, for violating the civil rights of George Zimmerman for her own personal gain.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 120, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
When a jury takes 16 hours there will be discussions & debates on the issues. Without any possible testimony from Mr. Martin the jury is left to "believe" this went one way or another. There was no "proof" that the killing went as Zimmerman said it did. Or one of the versions that he came up with. There were arguments by attorneys on both sides and the jury took 16 hours to figure out which one to believe.

I'd hope they'd deliberate for a while! This isn't a situation that should be taken likely! Even if I was deadset I would still talk it out quite a bit. This whole trial rested on 6 women, they could potentially send an innocent man to jail or release a killer. 16 hours ain't that bad

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
Looks like Zimmerman is moving to sue NBC for the edited 911 call.

That keeps him in the public light - no way can he simply "disappear". Not a wise move for the killer who really needs a low profile.

Wow. Come on Ken, are you saying it was good for NBC to intentionally make Zimmerman look like a racist just so some random case can stay in the public's attention (it really is a random case, but that is besides the point) ? Excuse me if I prefer periodic updates vs flat out deception... shame on you

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
I can't believe how disgustingly deceitful NBC acted and I hope they lose a big sum of money.

He's going to need that money if Martin's family wins. Evidence rules are different in civil courts - for both NBC & Zimmerman. Evidence brought into ccivil court might even be transferred to CIvil Rights charges.

Yup. Doesn't change that Zimmerman was wronged. Even if we could read his mind and find out that he is indeed a racist and went out of his way to kill Martin, NBC is still wrong. It's inexcusable even if it was unintentional, which I highly doubt

I don't feel like I need to lecture you on what is right and wrong. I don't know how you can defend a wrong action even if you think the victim was indeed a murderer or racist. Our country is supposed to be above that, let's not add to our problems



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5602 posts, RR: 6
Reply 121, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
First, a white guy wearing the polo shirt & loafers would not have had Zimmerman go after him.

You keep saying this. Do you have anything to back that up, other than "it's obvious"?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 122, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4324 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 121):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
First, a white guy wearing the polo shirt & loafers would not have had Zimmerman go after him.

You keep saying this. Do you have anything to back that up, other than "it's obvious"?

You know, I never gave Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, just assume that he might have treated Martin differently because he was black. But in the 911 call (the unedited one, mind you) the operator asks the ethnicity of Martin and Zimmerman isn't even 100% sure, he says "he looks black" as if he isn't certain. So over zealous? Yeah, probably. Made poor decisions? Yeah, IMO. Overtly racist? Who knows, he very well might not have been.

Sadly, I don't think many people are going to change their opinions. Wish more people were open minded, when you see posters suggesting that it's ok for a news organization to maliciously edit 911 transcripts to make a suspect look racist you know some people either lack a lot of judgement or are just being closed minded :/



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11596 posts, RR: 15
Reply 123, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4314 times:

Did Zimmerman's anger issues ever come up in trial? I know Martin was on trial because he was a pot smoking tagger. I just wonder what was in Zimmerman's system that night and if his charges for resisting and assault and restraining order against his ex-girlfriend were ever introduced.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 124, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 123):
Did Zimmerman's anger issues ever come up in trial?

Irrelevant

Quoting seb146 (Reply 123):
I know Martin was on trial because he was a pot smoking tagger.

No, you obviously listen to the media too much. Got proof this came up in the trial (the trial is what mattered?)

Quoting seb146 (Reply 123):
I just wonder what was in Zimmerman's system that night and if his charges for resisting and assault and restraining order against his ex-girlfriend were ever introduced.

If that would have helped the case, don't you think the prosecution would have used it? You know, assuming that someone's violence in the past proves anything now


I don't know how you can complain about media bias and not mention what they did to Zimmerman. All the crap about showing Martin as a cutsie kid or him as a "thug" was BS, just like the blatant editing of the 911 tapes was BS. Also, the way they described Zimmerman's race was laughable.

You've seemed to have left out the other side, sir. In addition, you are confusing the media's terrible reporting and the trial itself. I don't know what you're trying to prove. If you're saying some of the reporting that made Martin look like a thug was bias at least say it in a less round about way. For the rest of your post, I'd read up on our legal system. Someone's past actions can come up under some circumstances, but if that is what you build your prosecution off of, you're gonna lose because past actions don't prove present guilt



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21516 posts, RR: 60
Reply 125, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

The attempt to railroad Zimmerman began when the media published a picture of a smiling skinny 12 year old when at the time of Martin's death, he was anything but. All accounts are that he was large, getting into trouble and had a chip on his shoulder. Not a thug, not a hardened criminal, but a pot smoking, tagging punk like so many other teens from split families. Of course, the family released the rigged photo, but it wasn't a file photo and the news sources had a responsibility to ask for a CURRENT photo.

I mean, if we are going to release childhood pictures of everyone, why not Zimmerman when he was 9? Or Hitler when he was 5 for that matter. Charles Manson at 8. Everybody looks like an innocent victim when young.

Even during today's protests, we see posters of the young Martin, not the clearly near adult, very capable real Martin. This goes along with the initial press agenda of convicting Zimmerman in the public eye.

The facts were that while Zimmerman was following Martin from a distance, at some point, Martin turned around and confronted Zimmerman, and became the aggressor. Once that happens, victimhood is lost. Martin was a typical excitable teen (of any race) who had the added problem of defining anyone who looks white as a "cracker" (his words). Ultimately, the night ended with Martin on top of a "cracker" and punching him rather than confronting him verbally, or possibly, I don't know, just talking to the dude.

The prosecution didn't have a case for manslaughter or 2nd degree murder. He did not intend to kill Martin, nor did he accidentally shoot him. There was no evidence that he had intent to kill but he did admit that he shot Martin in self-defense (not with any intent other than to stop the beating), but those were the charges brought. There were other charges that could have been levied instead related to his conduct before the death, but it would have seemed to those who wanted a certain outcome to be a whitewash.

But now they can't bring any more state charges. So Zimmerman gets off. Unless the Feds charge him with bogus double jeopardy civil rights charges, in which case they will lose AGAIN and absolutely cause riots.

So the question will be: does the Obama administration WANT riots? Because they will get them if they pursue federal charges and lose like they should, but can avoid them if they simply let the case peter out and the civil trial to unfold. And from what I can tell, Zimmerman is civilly responsible for wrongful death because it was his fault the event even took place and it was not clear if his only choice was to shoot Martin, even if it wasn't criminal.

BTW:
Any young male knows that once you start fighting with some stranger, you can end up injured or dead as a result. Whether it's at the moment from losing the fight (or getting stabbed or shot while "winning"), or later when some "friends" come looking for you. Any teen knows this. I knew this as a white kid in suburbia. I was followed and threatened a few times, and even in NYC, when two friends got into a fight (escalated from a snowball fight) with another random kid and the kid lost, walked off and said he's coming back with "friends." Martin had to know this too. So his choice to fight was a really, really bad one. In our case, we ran as fast as we could. Martin could have done the same. Or just continue to his Dad's house.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6617 posts, RR: 9
Reply 126, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 112):
How many of these shootings in ANY country occur where the offender should expect his victims to be armed?

That has never stopped a crazy person to do what they do. Sometimes even with police around, who end up injuring bystanders by firing ! Not having guns and ammo available easily, on the other hand... And here even when self defense is pretty obvious, the shooter can expect a thorough grilling by police, and if too much force was used (like a guy who used his hunting shotgun against unarmed young girls robbing his house) they'll see the inside of a jail cell.

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 114):
So I am watching the news about this and I noticed that all the guests that are against this verdict are talking about how Trayvon was just going home with ice tea and skittles and he was a innocent victim. None of them mentioned that at one point in all this Trayvon was assaulting Zimmerman.

Well, some people here are so short fused on their keyboard, I really wonder what they would do if a guy started following them at night.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 127, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4223 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 105):
Or you can indict the person who really violated some ones civil rights

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/201...cutor-indicted-for-falsifying.html

Angela Corey, Florida%u2019s state attorney and the special prosecutor tasked with making a case against George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin shooting has just been indicted by a grand jury for falsifying the arrest warrant and the complaint that led to Zimmerman being charged with the second-degree murder:

The indictment of Corey, which was handed down last week (see www.citizensgrandjury.com), charges Corey with intentionally withholding photographic evidence of the injuries to George Zimmerman%u2019shead in the warrant she allegedly rushed to issue under oath, in an effort to boost her reelection prospects.

For what it's worth, this is a "private" sovcit type grand jury, who likes to hand down presentments against people they don't like. It speaks volume that previous "grand juries" have involved accusing George W. Bush of orchestrating 9/11, as well as declaring that President Obama an usurper. They're usually wafted away by the actual legal system.


User currently offlineJRenavitz From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4184 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 100):
Wow. Just a question, the President's remark about Trayvon looking a son he never had or whatever, is it Kosher to comment on an on going trial like that?



Just as inappropriate as when then President Nixon declared Charles Manson guilty in the middle of his trial nearly resulting in a mis-trial. President's should at times know when to keep their mouths shut, and have some discrtion considering their position and influence.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 129, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4143 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 111):
What is known is that Trayvon did assault GZ at some point, nobody disputes that. Again, guilty of poor judgment.

No that is not known. We know that at some point Martin was on top and Zimmerman was injured. We don't know what lead up to that happening. Apart from that it was Zimmerman who followed Martin first by car and then on foot.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Short cut? He was returning from buying a drink & Skittles and probably took a short cut he has taken many times before.

A shortcut used by many others at that.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 125):
The facts were that while Zimmerman was following Martin from a distance, at some point, Martin turned around and confronted Zimmerman, and became the aggressor.

Speculation. For all we know Martin may have been hiding at some place and Zimmerman found him.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 125):
So his choice to fight was a really, really bad one.

Agan, speculation. You don't know Martin choose to fight. We do know Martin tried to get away from Zimmerman and was relentlessly followed.

Most importantly we know that it is only because Zimmerman decided to follow Martin any of this happened and Zimmerman was the only person bringing a weapon to a place no weapon should have been. I don't understand why gun owners so often get exemption from personal responsibility. Simple fact is that Zimmerman created a situation that got out of his control. Other people are required to face up to it but gun owners are given passes, why?


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7149 posts, RR: 9
Reply 130, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 123):
I know Martin was on trial because he was a pot smoking tagger.

Here you go with your nonsense again. You do know that this was never once stated in trial. Martin's past, his problems in school, with drugs, wanting to buy a gun, getting suspended from school for a think the 3rd time was never once mentioned in trial. The judge even allowed the defense to tell the jury that Martin had THC in his system. But guess what the defense never once said anything about it. So please enough with this nonsense.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 123):
I just wonder what was in Zimmerman's system that night and if his charges for resisting and assault and restraining order against his ex-girlfriend were ever introduced.

The charges were dropped. The restraining order was mutual. Both are irrelevant would not be allowed into evidence.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8839 posts, RR: 24
Reply 131, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 130):
Here you go with your nonsense again. You do know that this was never once stated in trial.

Shhhh, he's on a roll...



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 132, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 129):
No that is not known. We know that at some point Martin was on top and Zimmerman was injured. We don't know what lead up to that happening

What's that got to do with it. He was still assaulting GZ regardless of what may or may not have happened prior to it. Or maybe you believe in the middle of all of this GZ told TM to hold on a minute while he laid down and slammed his own head against the concrete and broke his own nose so he would have a reason to shoot Trayvon. Again Guilty of poor judgment

Quoting cmf (Reply 129):
Apart from that it was Zimmerman who followed Martin first by car and then on foot.

Not a crime to follow someone with a car that you deem suspicious while talking to the police giving them information that THEY asked GZ to provide. And by saying he followed Trayvon on foot is speculation on your part, it was never proven either way. If you believe George Zimmerman's account(which the jury did) he had lost sight of Trayvon before he exited his car to look for an address to provide to the police.

I wonder if you have as much interest in the other 262,000 blacks that were murdered in the country from 1976 to 2011 at the hands of other blacks. Or did you fall under the same spell that others have when your Federal Government perpetrated this fiasco to appease the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. What makes Trayvon Martins life any more important than the other 262,000 in your mind? Or how about the other 35,000 Blacks that died during the same period at the hands of other races. Did you cry out then?

[Edited 2013-07-15 07:32:26]

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 133, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 132):
He was still assaulting GZ regardless of what may or may not have happened prior to it.

He may have been defending himself. You don't know.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 132):
Not a crime to follow someone with a car that you deem suspicious while talking to the police giving them information that THEY asked GZ to provide.

As the judge said, show where it says it is legal.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 132):
And by saying he followed Trayvon on foot is speculation on your part, it was never proven either way.

If you have been driving behind someone and then decide to go in the same direction as that person you are following even if you pretend that you are just looking for flowers.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 132):
If you believe George Zimmerman's account(which the jury did)

Where have they said that? All they said is that there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. That doesn't mean they believed his story. It is amazing how people who object to some versions as speculation insist on thinking their speculation is truth.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 132):
he had lost sight of Trayvon before he exited his car to look for an address to provide to the police.

Per Zimmerman's reenactment he was outside the car before he started looking address.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 132):
I wonder if you have as much interest in the other 262,000 blacks that were murdered in the country from 1976 to 2011 at the hands of other blacks. Or did you fall under the same spell that others have when your Federal Government perpetrated this fiasco to appease the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. What makes Trayvon Martins life any more important than the other 262,000 in your mind? Or how about the other 35,000 Blacks that died during the same period at the hands of other races. Did you cry out then?

Shame on you for making this suggestion. One must ask why you resort to this type of argument.


User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14011 posts, RR: 62
Reply 134, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3982 times:

I think the biggest problem is that there exist selfappointed, armed neighbourhood "sheriffs" with a Wild west attitude and not police training at all, who seem to think that they have the authorities of a sworn LEO.
If somebody in civilian clothes would follow me at night, I would also become suspicious, and depending on the situation, would either run or challenge the person following me. It seems that both went for a macho "who blinks first" game.

A uniformed cop, clearly recogniseable as a LEO, would have been much better in solving this situation than some civilian wannabe cop.

Years ago a friend, while driving in Berlin, noticed some guys in civilian clothes, who wanted to stop him. He, thinking that it would be a possible robbing attempt, continued, but was a few blocks further on stopped by a police car. IIRC he missed a stop sign and the two guys who tried to stop him were plainclothes cops. After he continued, they radioed for assistance by their uniformed branch,who arrested him for failing to stop for police. IIRC he was later aquitted in court because he could not identify those plainclothes cops as police officers (in Germany they have a small keyring token with their state police shield and their number, which can´t be seen from a moving car), and it being late at night in deserted, not so nice neighbourhood, he could rightly suspect that it was an attempt to rob him. He stopped though for the uniformed police officers in their clearly identifcable police car.

Also a cousin of my former wife, a black West African, often had problems in the UK, where he often went to visit his relatives. He was a successful middleaged MD with his own clinic in DUS, employing several German nurses. He liked to dress in suits and to drive one of the more expensive Mercs. But he told me that in Britain he was regularly stopped by police, who didn´t believe that a black man could afford to drive such an expensive car.

As for Zimmermann, the proper way to act would have been to watch Martin from a distance, and to let the police handle the matter.

Jan


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 135, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 133):
He may have been defending himself. You don't know.

Neither do you

Quoting cmf (Reply 133):
As the judge said, show where it says it is legal.

Show me were it's not. The burden of proof is on you

Quoting cmf (Reply 133):
If you have been driving behind someone and then decide to go in the same direction as that person you are following even if you pretend that you are just looking for flowers.

You don't know that. He had lost sight of him and wouldn't have known what direction he went



Quoting cmf (Reply 133):
Per Zimmerman's reenactment he was outside the car before he started looking address.

Wrong again. He didn't know what the name of the street he was on and got out to see if he could find a street name

Quoting cmf (Reply 133):

Shame on you for making this suggestion. One must ask why you resort to this type of argument.

No shame at all. If you can't see the lynch mob mentality in this whole case that's your problem, not mine. Why is it that the Feds chose to stick their nose into this local case and not the other 35,000 in the last 35 years, or cases like these that happen each and every day. Why is it that, had the Feds kept their noses out of this, that there would never have been a story to follow or a trial to be had. This whole thing would have been lost on the back page of the local news never to be heard about. You seem so concerned about Trayvon's civil rights and no concern about Georges civil rights which have been trampled on. The only shame is on you for buying into it and not allowing the verdict by a jury of his peers be the final word. Or are you of the mindset that further tax payer money is to be wasted on more trials that will have the same outcome because there was no case to begin with. Be it right or wrong, it wasn't up to you or me to judge the final outcome. And just to be clear here, I too could give a rats ass about the other 297000 deaths as do most other people in this country. With the mindset that we have that" if It's not me or mine I could care less" ,it's clear to see we have all become hardened to murder in this country. Trayvon Martins death is no more or less important than the other 297000 blacks that have died in the last 35 years although our Government you like you to believe otherwise


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 136, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 133):
Quoting dtw9 (Reply 132):
I wonder if you have as much interest in the other 262,000 blacks that were murdered in the country from 1976 to 2011 at the hands of other blacks. Or did you fall under the same spell that others have when your Federal Government perpetrated this fiasco to appease the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. What makes Trayvon Martins life any more important than the other 262,000 in your mind? Or how about the other 35,000 Blacks that died during the same period at the hands of other races. Did you cry out then?

Shame on you for making this suggestion. One must ask why you resort to this type of argument.

This is the typical 'canned response' of racist minds that 'really could careless about the 262K blacks murdered..but it is thrown out there in a feeble attempt to say 'it's all the same..what's the difference?' It is a convenient lazy thinker reply to say anything of black interest and concern .. MUST BE tied to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Two names that tells you all you need know about anyone with deep seated racial hangups and serious 'black issues' .. if you look at everyone who has made this charge here on this site or any website you can find the result will be this, they are usually extreme conservatives (no exceptions) or someone too young to know any better and happens to parrot the opinion of an elder. No exceptions. Just search Sharpton/Jackson and look at who invokes it in this manner it s always the same people and types...proof certain types cannot change, they'll take that to their graves with them and their off spring to carry it forward. That is the extent of their knowledge and concern of anything Black America.. oh and toss in an occasional MLK reference appear 'unbiased'..instead of books and sincere research..talk radio and other conservative media insures this ignorance lives on..just tune in. I do, just to check the source.

Quoting cmf (Reply 133):
Where have they said that? All they said is that there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. That doesn't mean they believed his story.

And that's crux of it all.

Just like Casey Anthony most in the society knew she was a liar and it raised the public's ire.

Here, we've been given proof that George Zimmerman was a first class verified Liar (thanks Sean Hannity) and his straight up lie to Court trying to mask his finances. Along with his lies in his own recounts.

So, the question is... those of you willing to overlook and pretend Zimmerman is not a first rate liar..why do you find yourselves cheering him on? It's pretty clear to me why'd you easily discard such a person and be happy a sociopath is free.

If O. J, Simpson had video proving him a rabid liar as Zimmerman is, would you be as willing to overlook his irrefutable lies for sake of his presumption of innocence? (of course you wouldn't)


Here is what is asked of the Black Community in just the past 30 days.

1 -Accept the the judgement of 5 White Southern women ([plus 1 Latina) over the questionable killing of a black kid.

2 - Sentencing of a battered Black Woman 20 years for firing a warning shot at her legally restrained ex-

3 - SCOTUS wiping out of Section 4 of the Voting Rights Acts - and the Republicans immediately went to work doing what previous law had prevented.

...in just 30 days, these three LAW related items just spawned a new generation of radical angry young blacks it has confirmed what their parents suspected about the South and maybe the young ones did not want to believe..now they have proof.

For the 'The blacks are gonna riot' crowd (you have indeed posted that here)
Don't buy the white dominated White Dominated Florida Jury theory? Then ask yourself this, if the Jury were 5 blacks & 1 Latina - how much faith would you place in that jury for Zimmerman's chances? Race plays a part and you types are the reason why// you fail to distinguish the difference of perception.

You quote this 'black on black' crime stat and leave at that.

Blacks are no more concerned about black on black crime than you are 'white on white' crime or Asian on Asian crime.

Blacks are concerned with Unarmed Black Deaths under Authority (I thought he had a gun .. it looked like he had one)
That is the mounting figure that has a long long history of wrong doing where society fails to correct itself. It has a trickle down effect - which says to Blacks - when law or legal standing is presences..your value is diminished from the start - this Zimmerman's "he looks suspicious', thus Charles Stuart's "a black guy did it", thus Susan Smith's "a black guy did it" .... when such pattern continues to hold true, you are left with no choice but to reject the veracity of the system or at least distrust it.

If every 3 or 4 months, a Black cop shot an unarmed White teen for say the last 60 years...it would not be tolerated..it would be serious Headline news and certain repercussions! Not a single person can doubt that... but that very reverse IS INDEED the Black Reality. When there is the very rare BUT real 'a White cop shot an unarmed White teen ' .. there is Noise.. but not as much because the occurrence does not match the reality of former (unarmed black killed by White Authority).

The White Jury 'non guilty' verdict is not the issue on prosecutorial merit...BUT is very much so on the fact that Zimmerman has been outed as a confirmed Liar and nothing he says can be trusted .. and the millions celebrating him...looks like they are saying 'truth is of no concern and justice stands no chance' where black life is concerned on the receiving end of authority.' Defend the liar at all cost because of who he was up against.

That perception if not understood will be costly sooner than later. The damage if not addressed will smolder.

To the Black Community is very much BIG News when the perception is 'they are being short-sheeted by Authority (not arresting Zimmerman earlier) when history itself is littered with a short-changing of justice for centuries'.. have that historical experience then argue against it. History's streak has to make a clear break of change for that perception to also change...this just set it back in a big way. Wonder why some black people appear so angry.. this just added to the numbers. Older blacks not so much, this just pushed a good number of younger ones to one side..not a good side.

BN747

[Edited 2013-07-15 09:50:40]

[Edited 2013-07-15 10:13:55]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11596 posts, RR: 15
Reply 137, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 131):
Shhhh, he's on a roll...

So, the jury members never knew about any of that before the trial? The jury members never heard MSM telling everyone how awful Martin was?

Also, Zimmerman is known to have anger issues. It is known. It is documented. I don't see why that should be defended.

Besides, what drugs and/or alcohol was in Zimmermans system the night he murdered Martin?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 138, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3937 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 135):
Neither do you

Difference is that I'm not stating he assaulted Zimmerman nor the other way around. All I'm stating is that Zimmerman followed Martin, as we know from Zimmerman's description of events and have no reason to doubt.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 135):
Show me were it's not. The burden of proof is on you

You made the first claim thus the burden is on you.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 135):
You don't know that. He had lost sight of him and wouldn't have known what direction he went

Don't be silly. Zimmerman clearly stated Martin went in between the houses where he later went in. It is all very clear, in Zimmerman's own words, in the reenactment. Listen from about 3:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4

He also comes back to it a bit later when he says he looked down the path he saw Martin go down where he claim he said that he could not see him, and that the torch he brought (for what reason if he wanted to cross to get a house number) didn't work.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 135):
He didn't know what the name of the street he was on and got out to see if he could find a street name

You're right, he did state he got out of the car to get the address. I got this wrong. But interestingly at around 6:30 he says he was asked about if he was following Martin and then he makes this amazing statement "yes, because you know I was in the area." Then instead of going back to his car he continues to walk around the area and then backtracks to where he says everything took place.

Edit:
I listened to the "911 call" and the request for address is far after he got out of the car and was told following is a bad idea.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 135):
You seem so concerned about Trayvon's civil rights and no concern about Georges civil rights which have been trampled on.

NO! I'm concerned because a guy with a gun behaved like an idiot and created a situation where someone who was just trying to walk home got killed. Zimmerman cased the events but is not held responsible despite being told first at the neighborhood watch training and then on the call not to follow.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 135):
Trayvon Martins death is no more or less important than the other 297000 blacks that have died in the last 35 years although our Government you like you to believe otherwise

I don't know details about many of those murders but I have learned a lot of details in this case and a significant difference from most murders is that in this case the start of the incident was all caused by the guy shooting (edit to clarify) and then claim self defense.. It was because Zimmerman's actions the ball escalated.

I'm also convinced that Zimmerman being armed was a significant factor in him daring to follow Martin so without the Zimmermans gun there wouldn't have been anyone shot and probably no confrontation.

[Edited 2013-07-15 10:17:10]

[Edited 2013-07-15 11:02:19]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 139, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 134):
If somebody in civilian clothes would follow me at night, I would also become suspicious, and depending on the situation, would either run or challenge the person following me. It seems that both went for a macho "who blinks first" game.

Exactly, that's what it looks like to me. From what I know of the case, I agree with the verdict due to lack of evidence, but steps should be taken to fix the flaws in our system

Quoting BN747 (Reply 136):
Don't buy the white dominated White Dominated Florida Jury theory? Then ask yourself this, if the Jury were 5 blacks & 1 Latina - how much faith would you place in that jury for Zimmerman's chances?

Why the big stink about it after the verdict was read? Maybe there were grumblings, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for a minute here, but I haven't heard anything about the black-less jury until the prosecution didn't get the ruling they wanted.

And it's not like the State of FL randomly throws a jury in, both parties have input in the matter. And so what if there was 5 blacks and that one latina? She could have just as easily said not guilty and we'd be in the same place. Do you doubt the judgement of the 5 women, just because they're white? Weak argument, next

Quoting BN747 (Reply 136):
BUT is very much so on the fact that Zimmerman has been outed as a confirmed Liar and nothing he says can be trusted

Mm hmm, yet he was found not guilty. Lying in a trial may ruin credibility but it's still up to the prosecution to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Next

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
So, the jury members never knew about any of that before the trial? The jury members never heard MSM telling everyone how awful Martin was?

Are you serious? Have you even seen what they were doing against Zimmerman? Or do you just ignore what you don't wanna hear? I honestly think you do. I'm not gonna go all scientific and find out what proportion was anti-GZ and what was anti-TM, but trust me, there was plenty of garbage against GZ. I can post it for you if you'd like, you apparently didn't see it the first few times.

And no, none of it was right, I'm not defending anti-TM crap just because there was anti-GZ crap. I'm just saying, if anything, I think GZ was made out just as badly, if not worse. I mean seriously, a 17 year old smoking pot? That's hardly a rare, deviant action

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
Also, Zimmerman is known to have anger issues. It is known. It is documented. I don't see why that should be defended.

It isn't defended, it just isn't talked about by anyone that has a shred of an idea how the legal system works. Go to law school, or crap, read a wikipedia article or two on our court system and I think you'll find out why people dismiss the anger issue argument (just as most people dismiss the anti-TM ad hominem attacks)

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
Besides, what drugs and/or alcohol was in Zimmermans system the night he murdered Martin?

Do you think there is a reason that the prosecution, you know, people who's job it is to do this, never brought this up? Did you even read the part where it was written that the defense didn't bring up TM's drug use? Stop watching FOX news, it's filling your head with misinformation



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 140, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3821 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for a minute here, but I haven't heard anything about the black-less jury until the prosecution didn't get the ruling they wanted.

You didn't hear it..but was spoken about a sincere concern (to blacks) immediately upon seating of the jury..and of course you're going to hear of it.. you believe it be a non-factor even in the face of a storied history of it being a factor.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
And so what if there was 5 blacks and that one latina? She could have just as easily said not guilty and we'd be in the same place.

That again (as said above) would have gone a great distance in mitigating the swells of anger now.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
Do you doubt the judgement of the 5 women, just because they're white? Weak argument, next

Weak to you..not weak to those who've seen decades of all white juries in the South denying justice and equal consideration to blacks...fact. It's the South.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):

Quoting BN747 (Reply 136):
BUT is very much so on the fact that Zimmerman has been outed as a confirmed Liar and nothing he says can be trusted

Mm hmm, yet he was found not guilty. Lying in a trial may ruin credibility but it's still up to the prosecution to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Next

Two different subjects accepted as one in the minds of most non-complex Americans.

The Prosecution thought just like you.. no blacks on the jury.. no problem. Justice is truth (which it isn't)

O'Mara was smarter than them and KNEW blacks on this jury was absolutely unacceptable and went the distance in striking them from consideration.

Lying in a trial MAY ruin your credibility...hmmmm is that sliding rule standard you employ on a whim? Look at easily you dismissed getting caught in lies...as if it were nothing. Others see that as '..wow he blatantly lied and prople expect us to trust this system??? Speaks volumes about those discounting it so easily. Next...

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
Besides, what drugs and/or alcohol was in Zimmermans system the night he murdered Martin?

Do you think there is a reason that the prosecution, you know, people who's job it is to do this, never brought this up?

This is one of the concerns gravely expressed by the public uproar after Zimmerman was questioned - why toxicology report on him? No forensics to rule out or cross check his claims. Leaving the kid's body there..not even bother to use his phone to contact his parents..he might as well been a homeless dude the way he was treated.

Back to the inept Prosecution which I lambasted in the other thread, the closing by De La Rionda was a sterling example of why being ignorant the 'state of race' in America resulted in his anemic close - he could properly relate to the Martin Family's situation perspective, nor defend the excoriating attacks on his star witness - Rachel Jeantel, 19yo who simply on appearance was terrified to be broadcast to the world - but did it anyway. IMHO, His ego should have given way to Richard Mantei to close because he easily had what it takes to argue facts over him or John Guy. But again, a southern all white jury...I seriously doubt F. Lee Bailey could stand a chance against that.



BN747

[Edited 2013-07-15 12:20:06]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 141, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 140):
You didn't hear it..but was spoken about a sincere concern (to blacks) immediately upon seating of the jury..and of course you're going to hear of it.. you believe it be a non-factor even in the face of a storied history of it being a factor.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 140):
That again (as said above) would have gone a great distance in mitigating the swells of anger now.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 140):
Weak to you..not weak to those who've seen decades of all white juries in the South denying justice and equal consideration to blacks...fact. It's the South.

And how is that Zimmerman's fault? A bigger stink about it should have been made rather than a few quiet voices in the background

Now, if you want to start a separate thread on the injustices against blacks in the US and especially our court system, go ahead. I don't have to tell you that it's a HUGE disparity, even bigger than most people think. Growing up as a minority presents a whole slew of challenges that most white Americans can not comprehend and the deck is stacked against minorities from the get go.

But that has no bearing on why I think Zimmerman is not guilty. I've seen too many people that think Zimmerman should have been guilty because if Zimmerman was black, he'd be guilty. Erm, that is not a good reason for a guilty verdict, and the correct course of action isn't to even the playing field by making Zimmerman guilty but to work on reducing the automatic assumption that a black male is guilty.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 140):
Lying in a trial MAY ruin your credibility...hmmmm is that sliding rule standard you employ on a whim? Look at easily you dismissed getting caught in lies...as if it were nothing. Others see that as '..wow he blatantly lied and prople expect us to trust this system??? Speaks volumes about those discounting it so easily. Next...

Poor wording on my part. It definitely ruins your credibility, but it doesn't always lose your case. GZ had a lot of leeway, I think he could have lied a lot more and got off. (I haven't looked at how he lied, but I'll cautiously believe you now and look that up later.) The prosecution still has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, and if the facts aren't there to support their case, GZ can collapse in a web of lies and still probably get a not guilty. It's one of those "we know he did it but we lack the solid evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt."

Read what I'm saying, I'm not a "champion of GZ." I wasn't there and I'm not on the jury, so I can say I "think" this or that happened without repercussions: I think he stuck his nose in where it didn't belong and had he not been so gung ho, Martin would still be alive. I believe that regardless of whether TM was a "thug" or a smiling 17 year old. I'm sure TM may share some guilt... have no proof, like I said, but I *think* that both of their macho attitudes lead to a confrontation.

That all being said, I'm not sure if GZ actually broke the law and I'm pretty sure there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. A black version of GZ might have been deemed guilty, which is an injustice that needs to be fixed, but not by going against the legal system and declaring GZ guilty with a reasonable doubt that exists



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7149 posts, RR: 9
Reply 142, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 133):
He may have been defending himself. You don't know.
Quoting dtw9 (Reply 135):
Neither do you

That is the point. We don't know. If we don't know you can't convict.

Quoting cmf (Reply 133):
As the judge said, show where it says it is legal.

Florida law does not say I can go on Airliners.net. But it is not illegal. Florida Law does not say I can eat an apple while jogging down the beach and trying to juggle avocados but that is certainly legal.
The point of the judge's argument in that if they want to tell them it is not illegal the defense can go ahead and tell them that.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
So, the jury members never knew about any of that before the trial? The jury members never heard MSM telling everyone how awful Martin was?

Nope. At least they should not have. If they did they should not have been on that jury. If they did and lied then they are susceptible to charges of perjury. They also should have known very little about Zimmerman.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
Also, Zimmerman is known to have anger issues. It is known. It is documented. I don't see why that should be defended.

Has nothing to do with the case in the court.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 136):
Don't buy the white dominated White Dominated Florida Jury theory? Then ask yourself this, if the Jury were 5 blacks & 1 Latina - how much faith would you place in that jury for Zimmerman's chances?

The State was part of Jury selection. They had no problem with it. There was obviously a compromise. I am sure the defense was not a fan of an all female, 5 out of 6 mother jury. At the same time the defense probably did not want any blacks on the jury. It was very likely a compromise. State gets mothers, defense does not have a black person on the jury. This is how it works. Jury selection is a long, strategic, detailed process. The judge makes the finals decisions anyway.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 143, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3790 times:

m

Quoting BN747 (Reply 136):
This is the typical 'canned response' of racist minds that 'really could careless about the 262K blacks murdered..but it is thrown out there in a feeble attempt to say 'it's all the same..what's the difference?' It is a convenient lazy thinker reply to say anything of black interest and concern .. MUST BE tied to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Two names that tells you all you need know about anyone with deep seated racial hangups and serious 'black issues' .. if you look at everyone who has made this charge here on this site or any website you can find the result will be this, they are usually extreme conservatives (no exceptions) or someone too young to know any better and happens to parrot the opinion of an elder. No exceptions. Just search Sharpton/Jackson and look at who invokes it in this manner it s always the same people and types...proof certain types cannot change, they'll take that to their graves with them and their off spring to carry it forward. That is the extent of their knowledge and concern of anything Black America.. oh and toss in an occasional MLK reference appear 'unbiased'..instead of books and sincere research..talk radio and other conservative media insures this ignorance lives on..just tune in. I do, just to check the source.


Now that I'm done choking on my lunch from laughter lets get to your points. First off, you know nothing about me to make such a generalized assumption, talk about profiling. I am no more a Ultra Conservative as I am an Ultra Liberal. I happen to be an Independent who votes for the best candidate regardless of their political affiliation. I deal with the Black community on a daily basis and have the same good and bad interactions as I do with any race. I have black and white interracial marriages in my immediate family and am treated by and treat these family members the same as all the rest, their family and I'm proud of all of them. My judgment of people is based on their character, not the color of their skin, their sexual preference or religious affiliation. So I guess if that's a racist in your mind, then I guess I am. Now lets get to your pals Jesse and Al. No. I don't agree with their tactics. I don't agree with anyone who goes out of their way to keep fear and distrust alive between the races for their own personal, political and monetary gain anymore than I agree with the people who create fear and distrust between the Jews and the Muslims or the Catholics and the Protestants in the Middle East and Belfast. There have been many great Black Americans throughout history who have contributed not only to the fight for racial equality but also to the political and economic fabric of our country. When it comes to Al and Jesse , lets just say their legends in their own minds and leave it at that. When it comes to caring about the deaths of 297000 blacks over a thirty year period, your right I don't care, any more than I care about the 1 million people of other races who have been murdered in the same time frame. Is it because I don't value human life, no, It's because I've grown hardened to the fact( as have many Americans) that murder is a way of life in this country.(when"s the last time or ever, that you have seen millions of people take to the streets to demand a stop to the killing of nearly 50000 Americans each and every year) So again, If in your mind that makes me a racist, then so be it. Now lets get back to this case. I really didn't care which way the verdict would go long before the trial even started. But after studying the lack of evidence that was to be presented, the outright attempt by the media to sway public opinion, the DOJ and the President getting involved with sending monies to organize protests and making statements that if "He had a son he would look just like Trayvon", the AG falsifying and hiding documents under oath to get the second degree warrant, I began to smell a lynching of GZ. That bottom line in all of this is , no one will ever know the whole truth as to what happened that night, not you , me , or the other 9 Billion people on this planet. But if it makes some of you people feel good to keep speculating about "what ifs" and "lets find a way to prosecute him again he can't get away with it". or my favorite "if he shows his face he's a dead man" then you go ahead if that's what gives comfort to your hearts and souls, Me, I'm done


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 144, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 142):
That is the point. We don't know. If we don't know you can't convict.

Correct. Nr does it mean the accused was innocent.

Quoting flymia (Reply 142):
Florida law does not say I can go on Airliners.net. But it is not illegal. Florida Law does not say I can eat an apple while jogging down the beach and trying to juggle avocados but that is certainly legal.
The point of the judge's argument in that if they want to tell them it is not illegal the defense can go ahead and tell them that.

Go back to the circumstances. It isn't as simple as that following someone is legal.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 143):
First off, you know nothing about me to make such a generalized assumption, talk about profiling.

Yet that is what you did about me.... You clearly display double standards, one for you one for others, why the different rules?

Also, can you please address issues you left open. Preferably using the enter key to create reasonable chunks of text.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7149 posts, RR: 9
Reply 145, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3746 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 144):
Correct. Nr does it mean the accused was innocent.

Agreed. He is not guilty. There is a reason why verdict forms are Guilty or Not Guilty. And not Guilty or Innocent. Either way in the eye of the law he did nothing wrong.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 146, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3678 times:

To everyone who thought it was a clear cut case. The first juror to speak publicly said it was 3 for not guilty and 1 for second degree murder and 2 manslaughter when they started deliberating.

[Edited 2013-07-15 17:39:47]

User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 779 posts, RR: 1
Reply 147, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

The jurors thought that at first glance. They eventually came around once they understood the evidence and discussed it. All 6 agreed Zimmerman was not guilty in the end.

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 148, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3657 times:

From your previous post.

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 42):
This was a case of classical self defense and has nothing to do with 'Stand your Ground'.

She said it was about stand your ground. Why she thought he wasn't guilty.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8227 posts, RR: 8
Reply 149, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3657 times:

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 114):
None of them mentioned that at one point in all this Trayvon was assaulting Zimmerman.

That's the killer's story - or I guess a blending of all the various stories he told.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 117):
16 hours for a not guilty in a high profile case and you take that to mean something?

I take it to mean that the jury had a lot to discuss before letting the killer off.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 118):
it curious that you seem to feel you can't make your argument simply by saying, "if Trayvon had been white...", but instead have to apparently qualify it by saying, "if he was white AND wearing a polo shirt and loafers"

I'm sorry to have confused you - I should have kept it simpler and said a White Yuppie.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 119):
Mark O'Mara, George Zimmerman's defense attorney, said that they will 'seek and we will get' immunity from civil suits if any are 'spawned from this fiasco.'

Just like in the OJ killings?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
are you saying

I'm saying that a suit against NBC (or any other media) will keep the killer in the public eye when it would seem that having him "disappear" would be in the best interests of his safety. I really don't think the killer wants the public to know were he is - even if he does have a gun.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
shame on you

Shame on me?

Why? For believing the killer is safer if most people don't know where he is? Your preference is another shooting?

As for the NBC story, I didn't see it, nor do I really care that much about it. If the killer gets some money then that can help fund a loss in an OJ type civil suit.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
Doesn't change that Zimmerman was wronged.

Just like it doesn't change the fact that Martin is dead - killed by Zimmerman.

Of the two I believe the killer got off a hell of a lot easier than the victim.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
even if you think the victim was indeed a murderer or racist.

Let's see: the victim was a barely 17 year old kid coming back home with a drink & Skittles. He was shot to death and you believe his killer is the victim?

Zimmerman is a killer. Simple fact - he became one when he pulled the trigger.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 139):
but steps should be taken to fix the flaws in our system
Quoting BN747 (Reply 140):
Weak to you..not weak to those who've seen decades of all white juries in the South denying justice and equal consideration to blacks...fact. It's the South.

Why do you think that the police showed so little concern for the dead kid and his family. And why do you think that a the police chief had to leave his job over the racism.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 140):
This is one of the concerns gravely expressed by the public uproar after Zimmerman was questioned