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What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?  
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7384 times:

I followed the trial closely, something I have not done heretofore with any of these nationally captivating trials. Legally speaking, it is what it is. The state failed to prove its case. But one person is dead and another’s life is destroyed. No one has truly won here. This isn’t a legal post—that’s for other threads.

But what now? About society? And us?

I’ve been thinking about this a great deal because I’m really very troubled. I know this is the last forum to even express something like this, but I had to get a few things off my chest. It’s a real shame—although predictable—that this has become some perverse referendum on race relations in America. From the get-go, this entire thing was co-opted for political purposes, from the overzealous Angela Corey, who should be faced with prosecutorial misconduct IMO, to Obama with his inane “if I had a son” comment. The police chief was cashiered because he wouldn’t prosecute, the police didn’t think it was appropriate either. The entire thing was hijacked by the race business, including the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman “white Hispanic” by CNN (whatever the hell that means).

And in reading the torrential downpour of Tweets and comments from celebrities, athletes and pandering leftists, I shudder to think of how dumbed-down we’ve become. It’s actually not even maddening—the ignorance and unjustified anger is just flat-out saddening.

I think Eric Holder belongs in jail for his criminality, but he was correct—indirectly and unintentionally—when he made that famous comment about us being cowards about race. He’s right, but in a way he didn’t intend: we refuse to talk about the raw, honest truth and the state of the black community. We want the pound of flesh from George Zimmerman, but we don’t hold “black leaders” responsible for their racist, inflammatory and inciteful comments (see Al Sharpton and ‘Reverend’ $hakedown Jack$on, most frequently). The media can impugn, indict and ostracize anyone they choose at any time of their choosing, but won’t touch the tough issues associated with race.

Some call this a cold-blooded murder of an innocent black kid and riot in the streets, but yet there is NO mention in the mainstream media about Joshua Chellew. Does he not deserve justice as well? Or Antonio Santiago? His life is as equally valuable as that of Trayvon Martin’s was, is it not? And there’s NO talk in the MSM about black on black violence at all, which is epidemic. Based on Bureau of Justice stats, between 1976-2011, there were 279,384 black murder victims, which means that 262,621 were murdered by other blacks. In some years, it’s as high as 94%. Even though blacks make-up only 12.5-13% of the nation’s population, they account 50% (give or take) of all homicide victims. Where is the focus on this?
At the end of the day, we have a cultural problem with violence that spans race, but the black community has some very notable problems that are not dissimilar from white or Hispanic communities, but are more pronounced. And it starts with the breakdown—or non-existence—of the family unit. Now about 70% of all black births are out of wedlock. And over 50 years of affirmative action and civil rights progress hasn’t ameliorated the anger from many blacks toward whites—if anything, it might have made it worse. Education is a disaster and the predominant contemporary (note the deliberate use of the word CONTEMPORARY—because it wasn’t like this before the emergence of the welfare state) culture says being educated is not cool. The culture of rap music, misogynistic and racist lyrics, gang involvement, and our pop culture sewer just magnify this entire problem.

Our cities are burning before our very eyes. Large cities have high homicide rates and are imploding. It’s not sustainable. It can’t be. The destruction of basic values of education, morality, right and wrong, fatherhood, responsibility, have created dependency and a dependent class, when you discard the benefits of education, crime and misery follow. And here we are.

So what’s next? I sincerely would love to hear proposed solutions and ideas—political, economic, social, etc—as to how we can bridge this and come together.

229 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7343 times:

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
including the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman %u201Cwhite Hispanic%u201D by CNN (whatever the hell that means).

Seems you suggest CNN created white hispanic, do you?

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
but yet there is NO mention in the mainstream media about Joshua Chellew. Does he not deserve justice as well? Or Antonio Santiago?

Why do you suggest these cases are equal to Zimmarman/Martin? I have not seen anyone suggest the perpetrators were justified in what they did and should go free.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
And it starts with the breakdown%u2014or non-existence%u2014of the family unit

Does it? How do you support this?

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
So what%u2019s next? I sincerely would love to hear proposed solutions and ideas%u2014political, economic, social, etc%u2014as to how we can bridge this and come together.

Now this is good. Sadly I do not have the answer. I have a few things I think will help but I am not under the illusion it will fix it.

The first thing is to realize that this is not something that will solved quickly. My guess is that it takes minimum two generations.

Second is to deal with the much higher unemployment there is in the black community. It means that in many cases other people will be treated ways they don't deserve. Sorry, but it is needed to move forward.

Third, and this is extremely difficult, skin color must be as unimportant as hair color. It is OK to use it to describe a person for sake of identification. It is OK to use it in jokes with the understanding it is a joke. We must loose the idea that Asians study hard and can't drive. Same needs to happen with prejudice about nationalities. Something that is rampant here on a.net I don't know how to make this happen but I am convinced education is part of it.

Nothing but a very simplistic start.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7336 times:

You've already made up your mind on so many things and introduced so many side-rants in your OP that I don't think it's even possible from the onset to have a productive discussion.

I really don't want to dignify this thread with a response, but it has to be said there's a major flaw in your reasoning: What does blacks killing blacks have to do with race relations in America? Isn't that an intra-race matter versus an inter-race one? If the number of black people killed by non-black people is as low as 6% in some years, does that even present a race relations issue?



Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Now about 70% of all black births are out of wedlock.

"Out of wedlock" doesn't mean "single-parent household" by the way. You would be better off providing a statistic for the latter, since unwed couple can still raise a child just the same as a couple who are recognized by the state.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman “white Hispanic”

"White hispanic" was a thing long before the Zimmerman trial. It refers to a white person of hispanic heritage. The rapper Pitbull has often discussed in interviews his hispanic roots and upbringing despite him "looking more white" than many caucasians.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Our cities are burning before our very eyes. Large cities have high homicide rates and are imploding. It’s not sustainable. It can’t be. The destruction of basic values of education, morality, right and wrong, fatherhood, responsibility, have created dependency and a dependent class, when you discard the benefits of education, crime and misery follow. And here we are.

Except that crime as a whole is on the decrease in the US.




Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics



Flying refined.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5370 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7298 times:

As I'm about to go on vacation with very limited connectivity, if any, I will leave you with this:

So long as there is profit in racial discord, there will be those who sow racial discord. We all know the names. They crawl out of their gilded halls everytime they think they can make hay out of a situation.

They know what buttons to push. They know, that at a very basic level, they are immune from any real lasting ridicule (and prosecution) because they will just turn their organization on their accusers. They know they have willing accomplices.

They pick at the scab of racism in the United States and do their darndest to keep it bleeding fresh painful blood.

Is there racism in the US? Of course there is, but these race baiters make sure it continues to exist instead of helping to mitigate its effects. They help spawn more racism instead of helping to heal. They do nothing to end racism because it would take away their livilihood and the reason for their 15 minutes.

They disgust me.

It is up to us to ignore those idiots and raise our children correctly. Raise them to understand racisim and reject it. And more importantly, teach them to recognize real racism (not the brand peddled by the race mongers) and challenge it when they see it.

See you all in about 8 days.

Stay low, stay safe.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7271 times:

As a gay man, I often hear a lot of: "Just because I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle doesn't make me a homophobe."

Yes it does. In fact, that's the exact definition of homophobia.

If we are going to address race relations, the first thing that we are going to have to do is accept that racism DOES exist. And we are going to have to accept that many of us are racist, even those of us who wish we weren't. I am a horrible racist, although I accept it about myself and thus try to modulate my behavior with that knowledge in mind. It's my way of ensuring that, although I am not color-blind, and although I have racist tendencies, I can expect it out of myself and thus I can curb any resulting behavior.

I've seen it first-hand. My friend Folahan, who is quite Black (not African-American...he's Nigerian by ethnicity) was driving me somewhere one day. We were pulled over. Now, this is a Stanford-educated man who doesn't wear low-hanging jeans or an oversized baseball cap or a big diamond earring. Why were we pulled over? The officer could not give a single reason why he pulled him over. All he said when he walked up to the door was: "I need you to get out of the vehicle." Then, he looked in and saw me in the passenger seat and said, "Actually, wait a minute." He went back to his cruiser for about ten minutes and then came back. When Folahan asked why he'd been pulled over, the officer said that there had been a mistaken identity. I wrote down his badge number and filed a complaint.

This happens ALL the time. Black people get pulled over for no reason other than being black. And if that happens, then you can imagine what other sorts of racism there is.

So the first step is going to be to get rid of this: "I'm not a racist" denialism.

I am NOT saying that every complaint from the African-American community about racism is valid. But to minimize or deny all such complaints is even more invalid.


User currently offlinen318ea From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7263 times:

Racism DOES exist. Any other 17 year old black person killed in black on black violence wouldn't have made the News. Look up Chicago statistics for verification.

User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3355 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7255 times:

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I’ve been thinking about this a great deal because I’m really very troubled. I know this is the last forum to even express something like this, but I had to get a few things off my chest. It’s a real shame—although predictable—that this has become some perverse referendum on race relations in America.

It comes from a failure to call a spade a spade on this entire issue which is something that was finally being done on CNN last night. The panel on Anderson Cooper called this pretty much perfectly, the criminal justice system is biased against minorities blacks get harsher sentences than hispanics and both get bigger punishments for the exact same crime that a white person does on an aggregate. All DA's across the US that charge minorities with larger penalties than whites need to be called out on it.

Discrimination also is occurring when people who do studies for job applications to determine the hiring practices of a company. An example being candidates with a white sounding name get called for interviews at a much higher margin than those of black or hispanic sounding names given identical qualifications.

And finally it has to be acknowledged that if Zimmerman was black and Martin was white or hispanic then he would have likely been arrested immediately and not after 44 days.

These things (that do happen) need to be acknowledged called out and eventually changed if there is any hope of improving race relations.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
From the get-go, this entire thing was co-opted for political purposes, from the overzealous Angela Corey, who should be faced with prosecutorial misconduct IMO,

Perhaps but I do stand by the fact that she overcharged Zimmerman as there was no evidence that GZ left his car with the intent of shooting and killing TM.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
to Obama with his inane “if I had a son” comment.

Not really a necessary comment for this thread and the only ones outraged by this comment largely are the ones who think that racism in America is a thing of the past. The whole point of Obama saying this is that this could have been any father's child.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
And in reading the torrential downpour of Tweets and comments from celebrities, athletes and pandering leftists, I shudder to think of how dumbed-down we’ve become. It’s actually not even maddening—the ignorance and unjustified anger is just flat-out saddening.

Had GZ been convicted there would be just as many tweets from the other side. Alex Jones would have probably said that GZ was a liberal plan to take our guns.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I think Eric Holder belongs in jail for his criminality, but he was correct—indirectly and unintentionally—when he made that famous comment about us being cowards about race. He’s right, but in a way he didn’t intend: we refuse to talk about the raw, honest truth and the state of the black community.

If you want to have a civil discussion then leave the opinions on people whom you don't like out of it. You would be among the first to bear fangs if someone thinks GWB and Cheney should be locked away for starting a bogus war.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Our cities are burning before our very eyes. Large cities have high homicide rates and are imploding. It’s not sustainable. It can’t be. The destruction of basic values of education, morality, right and wrong, fatherhood, responsibility, have created dependency and a dependent class, when you discard the benefits of education, crime and misery follow. And here we are.

They really aren't, there are violent pockets of any city. Chicago is actually doing fine and is a really nice city, but the south side is a problem for crime which the politicians are doing very little to fix, education dollars are actually being pulled and not given to these areas and that just makes the cycle worse. As we all know money attracts the attention of the politicians attention and these communities don't have a lot and no one is willing to invest in them.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
I've seen it first-hand. My friend Folahan, who is quite Black (not African-American...he's Nigerian by ethnicity) was driving me somewhere one day. We were pulled over. Now, this is a Stanford-educated man who doesn't wear low-hanging jeans or an oversized baseball cap or a big diamond earring. Why were we pulled over? The officer could not give a single reason why he pulled him over.

Reminds me of these clips from the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW9pklBXqk4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQtDXxXyPYQ&list=PL3C1E4EEEB3B5CE5F



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7231 times:

Quoting n318ea (Reply 6):
Any other 17 year old black person killed in black on black violence wouldn't have made the News. Look up Chicago statistics for verification.

Lets not kid ourselves. The circumstances in the Zimmerman case are not typical.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 7):
Perhaps but I do stand by the fact that she overcharged Zimmerman as there was no evidence that GZ left his car with the intent of shooting and killing TM.

I agree he was overcharged and he probably had no intention to shoot until just before he reached for the gun. That said it was his actions that created the situation leading up to the shooting. Anyone calling for personal responsibility should be up over arms that he got out free.


User currently offlinefuturepilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7213 times:

Quoting n318ea (Reply 6):
Racism DOES exist. Any other 17 year old black person killed in black on black violence wouldn't have made the News. Look up Chicago statistics for verification.

Because it's the same circumstances right?  

This is gonna sound cold and callous, but I personally could care less about gang bangers and drug dealers dying in gun violence, as far as i'm concerned they deserve it. But you're confused if you think innocent kids dying in the crossfire don't get national attention...in fact, why don't you follow your own advise and look up the shooting of Hadiya Pendleton in Chicago, which garnered national attention.



"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7206 times:

Obama has set America back decades in terms of 'race relations' by injecting himself prematurely into situations like the Zimmerman self defense shooting case. Perhaps Obama's time as a community organizer/agitator makes it difficult for him to sit on the sidelines while the legal system processes these cases. Either way, I agree that as long as there is money or political gain to be had by race baiting and agitating, America will be the worse for it. I know it's hard to believe for some, but not every interaction, transaction or criminal act involves race.

User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 1):

No you wouldn't. Your tirade belies the fact that you do not want to have anything remotely resembling an honest discussion on race relations in America.

Agreed, given the OP's history, but maybe he's sincere..

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 3):
You've already made up your mind on so many things and introduced so many side-rants in your OP that I don't think it's even possible from the onset to have a productive discussion.

I agree here to the letter.

But for as long as I've seen you ..and you me here, the race thing has been a point of contention - and in all that time, i've never seen you pose a question attempting to address the subject matter in this way..so I'll prove whatever limited input I can before the silly gene kicks in on some who don't know a sincere discussion when they see one.

Airliners.net itself has become more and more diversified in the time I've been here. It used to be heavily white and ultra conservative and extremely homophobic when I joined, many of those pressing that agenda have long parted. A sincere discussion of this nature is long overdue and I commend Slider for opening up about how the issue in the way he did. But he must also share some of the blame for is anxiety, discomfort and confusion. Look at your posts over the years regarding the subject - see if whether or not anything about you has changed. If nothing has, you should have a problem, but something is clearly at work for you express such frustration re:race.

I will used the 'side rant' sticker where appropriate.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I followed the trial closely, something I have not done heretofore with any of these nationally captivating trials.

I followed this, the Simpson Trial and Rod King Police Trial with great tenacity as each had a profound effect on the nation before, during and after. Huge!

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The state failed to prove its case.

From a legal stand point..it did.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
But one person is dead and another’s life is destroyed. No one has truly won here.

Yep totally true in part, because the defendant cleverly 'gamed' the system, he put 'Stand Your Ground' to the test, covered all his tracks (got caught lying) but made sure no one was around to refute his version...the perfect crime.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
It’s a real shame—although predictable—that this has become some perverse referendum on race relations in America.

Again you mean.

The Rodney King/LAPD case, trial did that

Then the OJ Simpson Trial did it again.

Now the George Zimmerman Trial did it a third time.

and count on there being a FOURTH and a fifth and maybe a sixth...

...because Americans don't learn from past mistakes or should I say they learn very slowly. And take everything for granted.

Look at the three trials in a case and effect (on the nation subsequently).

King/LAPD -
Black Motorist beaten brutally by white LAPD Officers (see youtube).
.... confirmed what Black America had said for decades about thuggish Police Brutality towards them - Racial profiling was born out of this trial. The (Warren) Christopher Commision was charged with addressing America's ills re:unjust treatment by the law of Black Americans

result - upon LAPD's acquittal after worldwide viewing of King being beaten senselessly, that verdict said Blacks could be beaten unmercifully by the law with impunity...riots set the nation on fire. The Warren Comm. Report partially implemented by largely discarded. Because as I said..we do not learn from our mistakes very well. It fizzled because authority does not like being told it is wrong.

MEDIA: Nationally, the media showed the King Beating endlessly, but pundits would NOT openly and viciously condemn the unapologetic LAPD as they deserved..the Media was tight lipped. Some exceptions were people like Phil Donohue and Jerry Springer.

----------------

OJ. Simpson Trial:
Black Wealthy Famous Male accused of brutal killing his White ex-wife and her male friend Ron Goldman.

If was the 1st time in American History, that 'Black America' saw someone like them (as far as being black goes only) who had the financial means to go toe-to-toe in the American Justice System Courts..it has never happened before. Many Blacks did not care if he were guilty or not..just that they wanted to a Black person take on the racist American Justice system and win.

Exactly how the most extreme whites feel about Zimmerman today - they don't care he lied, they don't care if he's really guilty..it was a black kid who looked like thug rapper and he needs to be gone...end of story.


Was it wrong for blacks to think/feel that way about Simpson, as in not care if he did it not? Yes and No. Yes because murder is acceptable in a civilized Society. NO because Society had not be civil to them so why should they be civil towards a system that completely disrespects their rights as a people? They had no faith in the system as is and had nothing to lose and everything to gain if the system gave them a win. And nearly all Black Jury found Simpson innocent and in large part to the testimony of Dr. Henry Lee disclosing horrific police work which was an indictment of the LAPD itself.. the worse and sloppiest gather of evidence ever along with suggestion that Det. Mark Furhman hadeven planted evidence - blew the case.

Did the racial make up of an all black jury have any impact on that case? Only a fool would say ' NO'... if that Jury had been All White...would he have been acquitted? Not a chance in hell! He'd would have been found guilty of two murder 1s.

Video of worldwide reactions - esp. the one in the Circuit City store where when the verdict was announce - whites were completely stunned..standing right next to them, Black customers were absolutely estatic! (see youtube -along with white salesman telling Blacks to be quiet).

Media: Nearly All Media had condemn Simpson, few if any gave him the sliver of presumed innocent. ALL of the guys over in the Zimmerman thread saying 'we'd rather see 10 guilty men go free than one innocent one got to jail' CANNOT bring themselves to say that about O.J. Simpson...their attitudes on race - towards Blacks, will not allow it. Simple as that. Even Geraldo Rivera went disgustingly bonkers disclosing his own animus towards blacks after appearing to be someone liberal in his prior views. He tried to tone it down..but the damage to his brand was done.

If you're white person today still getting incensed about the OJ Acquittal in 2013...it's race that's eating at you because I assure you do not know the facts presented in the trial. And even worse than that, it would shock you actually know what was at the very center of this trial that never came out in court - local insider info only.

That's the impact of Race Reality in America.

The Zimmerman Trial.

We know the story..but what white America doesn't see here and did not see in any of the other two examples
or does not care to see is all the race history that led up to these trials - for blacks injustice was expected at every turn..whites had no problems with 'their justice' as it has always worked for them..until O.J. and in their minds, it was that all black jury thing and to this very day..even with Zimmerman and his white jury - neither side trust the other in exclusive extremes. Translation...we've got a long what to go.

MEDIA: For the 1st time in American History, Media incorporated the viewpoint of Blacks in a nationwide case. And did so in a balanced manner (except for Fox News, were Trayvon a choirboy...maybe, just maybe they would have cut him some slack). Maybe just maybe some progress in National coverage of minority concerns - and yes it was brought on by demonstrations and outcries of injustice. At least someone gets that aside from the Egyptians...when something's not right....do something. The system WILL NOT correct itself. Look at how chicken sh!t we all were when the snuck the Patriot Act thru...we should have gone Egypt on Washington..but everyone was scared to death for fear of appearing 'un-American.

Those who draw a blank on race history..will turn and ask 'Why is this a Big Deal'.. your deficit and gaps in historical understanding should explain that.. your world is not the same as people constantly being harassed by the police or unbalanced Justice system when it comes to the administration of justice itself.

White caught with weed...let go
Black caught with wee...go to jail.

White citizens are aware of the law disparity and will intentionally exploit it. Again, Charles Stuart, Susan Smith, now George Zimmerman,.



--------------------

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
From the get-go, this entire thing was co-opted for political purposes, from the overzealous Angela Corey, who should be faced with prosecutorial misconduct IMO, to Obama with his inane “if I had a son” comment.

see above - side rant point.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The police chief was cashiered because he wouldn’t prosecute, the police didn’t think it was appropriate either.

Look at who the police we're talking about, the poor State prosecution was born right there from piss poor police handling from minute one.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The entire thing was hijacked by the race business, including the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman “white Hispanic” by CNN (whatever the hell that means).

A lack of Race Knowledge again, 'White Hispanic has been around for quite sometime and really came alive during the Lyle and Erik Menendez trial.

But many Caucasian looking Hispanics like Zimmerman prefer identifying themselves as just 'white' they see it as advantageous...that is until he got his ass into a sling, it became and advantage to not be see as white but as Hispanic to counter racial profiling. As read aloud in the trial when it was testified to Zimmerman's police application in Virgina...He, Zimmerman 'checked' white. Not White Hispanic nor Hispanic. He can now go back to checking 'white' and he will because he is indeed a liar and fraud.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):

And in reading the torrential downpour of Tweets and comments from celebrities, athletes and pandering leftists

Side Rant point.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I shudder to think of how dumbed-down we’ve become. It’s actually not even maddening—the ignorance and unjustified anger is just flat-out saddening.

Sorta side rant...not sure what to make of that..

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I think Eric Holder belongs in jail for his criminality, but he was correct—indirectly and unintentionally—when he made that famous comment about us being cowards about race. He’s righ

He's meaning in the same way I see it.

When racial elements are present and some 'person' leaps up and says

'It's not about race..."

1 - it's a sure bet that person is the least qualified person even know what is and isn't about race.

2 - it most likely is indeed about race and race had everything to do with it.

..and yes Holder is correct MOST of us are cowards about speaking about race. I'm not, I find the it quite interesting to observe, it's a whole other human interaction .. good and bad on so many levels.

If you're married..and you're not 'Honest'...what eventually happens? It comes crumbling down.
America is built on racial divide, these new generations upon generations do improve a situation that had nothing to do with..until they become taxpaying, child rearing adults..then they become their parents and progress ceases.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
e want the pound of flesh from George Zimmerman, but we don’t hold “black leaders” responsible for their racist, inflammatory and inciteful comments (see Al Sharpton and ‘Reverend’ $hakedown Jack$on, most frequently).

The racist hallmark calling card if their ever was one, followed by, it's Affirmative Action causing the problems and the iron clad denial.."It's not racist, I've got a black friend or my black friend agrees with me.. newsflash, he does..but not when he's with his 'other black friends'...

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The media can impugn, indict and ostracize anyone they choose at any time of their choosing, but won’t touch the tough issues associated with race.

explain... black don't control the media until they hit the streets.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):

Some call this a cold-blooded murder of an innocent black kid and riot in the streets, but yet there is NO mention in the mainstream media about Joshua Chellew
Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Does he not deserve justice as well? Or Antonio Santiago?

Yes they do, both heart-retching stories but you are trying to equate this will centuries of racial carnage and deaths...when you've had 100 years (and that's on the short side of things)... you may then say 'everything's equal'..we are not there yet.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
I've seen it first-hand. My friend Folahan, who is quite Black (not African-American...he's Nigerian by ethnicity) was driving me somewhere one day. We were pulled over. Now, this is a Stanford-educated man who doesn't wear low-hanging jeans or an oversized baseball cap or a big diamond earring. Why were we pulled over? The officer could not give a single reason why he pulled him over. All he said when he walked up to the door was: "I need you to get out of the vehicle." Then, he looked in and saw me in the passenger seat and said, "Actually, wait a minute." He went back to his cruiser for about ten minutes and then came back. When Folahan asked why he'd been pulled over, the officer said that there had been a mistaken identity. I wrote down his badge number and filed a complaint.

A one time observation that is the everyday occurrence of a black male constant harassment..unending. And when starts as a child. why should they want accept a society who vanguard of law treats them with such constant indignities?

A gay male can some what relate, but only on a limited bases, he doesn't look at his skin and see a reminder of why he's harassed.

But everyone who doubts how bad it is...needs a few hundred of these experiences to get it sink in.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
the first thing that we are going to have to do is accept that racism DOES exist. And we are going to have to accept that many of us are racist, even those of us who wish we weren't. I am a horrible racist, although I accept it about myself and thus try to modulate my behavior with that knowledge in mind.

That's an RU list endorsement right there and the honest truth... few here will ever own up to that. Kudos!

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7157 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
A gay male can some what relate, but only on a limited bases, he doesn't look at his skin and see a reminder of why he's harassed.

It's a fair point. But no different than antisemitism in that respect. All discrimination has its particular differences. Being an invisible minority has its pluses...and its minuses.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
But everyone who doubts how bad it is...needs a few hundred of these experiences to get it sink in.

Bingo. The racist does not define racism. The object of the racism knows it when he sees it.

Are there falls calls? Sure. But that does not mean that there is no racism.


User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 807 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7154 times:

Easy. Stop making the gross assumption that because two people of different races are involved in a conflict that it is automatically racially motivated. There's a lot wrong with the whole Zimmerman/ Martin incident. There is a lot more wrong with the people external to the event and their motivations and what it has caused.

User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7145 times:

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 10):
Obama has set America back decades in terms of 'race relations' by injecting himself prematurely into situations like the Zimmerman self defense shooting case. Perhaps Obama's time as a community organizer/agitator makes it difficult for him to sit on the sidelines while the legal system processes these cases. Either way, I agree that as long as there is money or political gain to be had by race baiting and agitating, America will be the worse for it. I know it's hard to believe for some, but not every interaction, transaction or criminal act involves race.

  

Yep funny thing is the media is feeding the frenzy that now young black youth will have to be in fear of the white man after the Zimmerman verdict when the fact remains that 94% of young black males who will be killed by violence will be at the hands of other young black males but no one wants to go there. The Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons make their living off keeping the race baiting going.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7130 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 14):
Yep funny thing is the media is feeding the frenzy that now young black youth will have to be in fear of the white man after the Zimmerman verdict when the fact remains that 94% of young black males who will be killed by violence will be at the hands of other young black males but no one wants to go there.

Then why was Zimmerman so worried about a black guy looking around "suspiciously"? Two thirds of all burglaries are made by whites.


User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2300 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7130 times:

It took me more than an hour to figure out an answer to this, and this is what I have to say IMHO....

If you look up the term "Race" it defies as a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by anatomical, cultural, ethnic, genetic, geographical,etc. However this term is a victim of a double standard that is all too alive in America. People use this to their benefit when something does not work in their favor, and others use it as a "slang term" to make their music videos and tv shows more appealing.. Many people forget that we all look the same on the inside.

There are also some people who tend to forget that "Racism" isn't just a black and white issue, I myself am Caucasian and because I don't tan very well, I've been called "Albino, Q-Tip,etc" by a white, black and even Spanish people, at the end of the day not only does it hurt, but it ruins a persons self-esteem, however its only talked about when there is a reason to exploit it. The only way things get better is when people show some respect towards one another, and unfortunately that only tends to last for a short period of time after a massive tragedy ( i.e 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston, etc ).

My mother taught me something when I was younger, and that's to TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WANT TO BE TREATED, and each day I do just that, and I found out 9 times out of 10 if you are kind and respectful towards one another, they will treat you with respect in the end.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3005 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 10):
Obama has set America back decades in terms of 'race relations' by injecting himself prematurely into situations like the Zimmerman self defense shooting case.

I don't see how we're set back decades in terms of race relations. We often say "You never understand a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes", so why do we criticize others when they do so? Speaking as if Trayvon was his son is something any parent would do, especially a parent whose child can be bullied or profiled just for who he/she is.

Obama's most recent remark urging restraint is something I would expect from a politician. He did not take any side, but of course, be that as it may, some people will criticize him whether he speaks or remains silent.

Like Doc said, racism exists in the US and to think otherwise is simply fooling yourself.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7088 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 13):
Easy. Stop making the gross assumption that because two people of different races are involved in a conflict that it is automatically racially motivated.

Not only that, but we can't assume that racism is a one way street. IMO, there is just as much (and please pardon me for these terms) black-on-white, black-on-brown, brown-on-black, and brown-on-white racism... and then there's Asians and Middle Easterners thrown in there too.

Not only that, but new terms have come into play. MLK's dream was that people would be judged by "the content of their character". Well, now we call that anti-cultural or xenophobic.

There are three groups that perpetrate such ideas: the actual racists/xenophobes, those who will use any excuse not to take responsibility for themselves, and those who profit from it all.


To tie it into the Trayvon Martin case, it is pretty sad (and very telling) that mass media and others are calling Zimmerman a racist for no other reason than Martin was black, and gloss over that Martin allegedly called Zimmerman a "cracker".



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7070 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Then why was Zimmerman so worried about a black guy looking around "suspiciously"? Two thirds of all burglaries are made by whites.

Maybe not in his neighborhood. I know in mine it is overwhelmingly blacks comitting those crimes. I never used to think anything about it until I was held up at gunpoint by 4 young black males right in front of my own house. So do I profile now? You bet your ass I do. Now I wouldn't go as far as Zimmerman did. But if I see anyone acting suspicious and they do not nessessarily have to be black either I am just more aware of my surroundings now. Bottom line as a percentage blacks disproportionatley commit crimes more than any other race. Sorry if it offends but it is what it is. Until black parents start taking responsiblity for raising their kids instead of just letting them run the streets to join gangs and become hood rats they are going to continue to be profiled.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9807 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7054 times:
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I don't have any magical solutions to the "race issue" in the US. And I'll freely admit that I harbor some racist thoughts and tendencies. I grew up in an area that's 95% white, and while I wouldn't call it a racist area, you tend to gravitate toward that which you know. It's actually quite funny to me, because I'm not even white!

When I moved to LA, it was quite a culture shock. Took me many years to adjust. I now live in a more mixed area than I used to, and I really like it. I still gravitate toward the nicer areas - and yes, those areas tend to be majority-white - but I'm light-years ahead of where I was 10 years ago. And really, there's nothing wrong with gravitating toward nicer areas.

I don't even particularly like hanging out with other Indian-Americans that much, and I've never dated Indian-American girls. There's nothing wrong with Indian-Americans, but it's never been my scene. I've never had the need or desire to specifically hang out with my ethnic group.

Regarding Zimmerman, it seems to me that the jury found the correct verdict. I don't pretend to know any more about the circumstances of the killing than anyone else does, but I'd wager quite a bit that there certainly was reasonable doubt.

For reference, I'm guessing the OJ jurors also found the correct verdict, though I was younger and not paying as much attention then. It was very easy to say "OMG, how could they do that???" But given the police, um, errors, they probably just couldn't convict. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.

Back to Zimmerman - people seem to be outraged that no one is being held accountable for TM's death. I don't understand that outrage. Holding someone - anyone - accountable should never enter the discussion. The justice system is there to determine whether a particular person - in this case Zimmerman - is accountable, not to see if we can fit accountability to Zimmerman by any means necessary. I hear people saying some variant of "it's sad that no one is being held responsible" with reference to the verdict. Come on now - that's just a terrible argument to use in order to say that one particular person should have been convicted. It's an emotional, revenge-based argument.

Others say that Zimmerman escalated the confrontation. Perhaps he did, and perhaps he should have been charged with a crime for it (I don't know Florida law). But obviously not 2nd-degree murder or manslaughter. Unfortunately, that's what they tried him for, and they lost (justifiably, I think).

Anyway. You're probably never going to be able to stop people from judging each other without really knowing each other. I judge all the time, based on all sorts of different criteria. What you can stop, or at least reduce, is people acting on those judgments. My initial judgments have quite often been wrong, and I'm usually very happy about that.

I hope this makes some semblance of sense, because I'm way too tired to read it over.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7046 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 19):
Maybe not in his neighborhood.

You're missing the point. He was using statistics to justify profiling. By that ,poor, standard you should look for white people in relation to burglaries.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
people seem to be outraged that no one is being held accountable for TM's death. I don't understand that outrage.

Before you I have not seen any of this. IMO it is what Dear Coquette in her typical to the point described as:

"Any system that would allow George Zimmerman to legally carry a concealed weapon, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious, legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities, and then legally use deadly force in the resulting altercation — I mean, come on — any system that would legally allow all of that is fucking broken."


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7032 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 19):
Bottom line as a percentage blacks disproportionatley commit crimes more than any other race. Sorry if it offends but it is what it is.

Careful.

Black people are arrested and convicted disproportionately more than any other race. No doubt do to racial biases like this:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 19):
Until black parents start taking responsiblity for raising their kids instead of just letting them run the streets to join gangs and become hood rats they are going to continue to be profiled.

Right... because White parents and Hispanic parents never do anything wrong, and Black parents can never do anything right.

Need I remind you that one of the most violent gangs, MS13, are Salvadorian? Los Zetas are Mexican, there's the Aryan Brotherhood... need I go on?

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
"Any system that would allow George Zimmerman to legally carry a concealed weapon, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious, legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities, and then legally use deadly force in the resulting altercation — I mean, come on — any system that would legally allow all of that is fucking broken."

Cool story. Too bad that's not what happened. Good use of hyperbole and twisting of the facts, with a nice touch of anti-gun rehtoric and extreme socialism.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
Too bad that's not what happened.

What is factually incorrect? It was Zimmerman who kept following Martin thus causing the confrontation. And how in the world is the above socialist? Already down to the stereotyping...


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7013 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
What is factually incorrect?

"Legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities".

911 dispatchers are not "authorities", in the sense they can not give orders. Also, after he had been told that it wasn't a good idea to follow, he stopped following.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
It was Zimmerman who kept following Martin thus causing the confrontation.

Yep, you keep saying this. Just like if the rape victim hadn't flashed her boobs, she never would have caused the rapist to take notice.

Just because you "cause" something doesn't mean your legally responsible.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
And how in the world is the above socialist?

I actually should have used the term "statist". The individual has no rights or interest in keeping the peace or protecting their community or themselves. Let the state worry about everything.

What's funny about her "broken system" comment, is that if "the authorities" were as good and wise as she wants them to be, there would be no need for anyone to follow anyone, because the previous burglaries would have already been solved and/or prevented.

Just because a system isn't perfect doesn't make it broken.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5491 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
It was Zimmerman who kept following Martin thus causing the confrontation.

As I understood the testimony, this is not correct; was this not a key issue in the defense case?



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7067 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
911 dispatchers are not "authorities", in the sense they can not give orders. Also, after he had been told that it wasn't a good idea to follow, he stopped following.

No-one said they gave orders. They instructed him not to follow. Look at the reenactment and it is clear he didn't stop.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Yep, you keep saying this.

It is Zimmerman who said he kept following. Even though he made up the amazing story about continuing following only because he was in the area. Again. Watch the reenactment.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Just because you "cause" something doesn't mean your legally responsible.

Right, gun owners should not be responsible for what their actions cause, just everyone else.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Just because a system isn't perfect doesn't make it broken.

WOW!!! That is the most circular justification I have seen in ages. She is saying that Zimmerman is responsible for the actions he set roling. That no working system can absolve such stupid behaviour against other people without consequences.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7057 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 25):
As I understood the testimony, this is not correct; was this not a key issue in the defense case?

It was Zimmerman who decided he didn't like the looks of Martin. It was Zimmerman who followed Martin, picking up the trail three different times. I do not think that justifies attacking someone, if that is what Martin did, but it sure means Zimmerman caused it to happen and thus is responsible to anyone who believe that actions cause reactions.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11534 posts, RR: 15
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7076 times:

I really don't think there is anything we can do until people quit the whole "us vs. them" mentality. The whole notion that if one or a few do it, the whole block does it. I am trying to make comparisons but it all comes out sounding incredibly racist. My point is: don't assume anything about anyone.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7057 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Anyone calling for personal responsibility should be up over arms that he got out free.

I'm gonna disagree with you here. I think too many people are judging GZ by what they think the law should be. I've said more than once there needs to be some serious gun reform (I think my ideas are pretty reasonable, but that's for another thread) and self defense laws need to be redefined a bit. But what I or you think the law should be is irrelevant... he needs to be judged according to the law at the time.


There are serious racial issues in America we need to deal with. I think too many people focus on the extreme 10%s (the people that think everything and anything is somehow racist / the people that think no form of racism exists at all.) What kills me is if you are a minority born in a bad part of town, it's almost impossible for you to amount to anything. Someone will always be able to point to an event or two that they "shouldn't have done, serves you right" but the reality is, every single person has done something wrong or made mistakes... in white suburbia, that lack of judgement may not end your life, throw you behind bars, etc.

It is quite easy to 'buckle down' and set things straight for a few months or even a couple years but pretty much impossible for a whole lifetime. What people need to accept is if YOU were born as a minority in the inner city, you'd most likely make the same mistakes people around you make and not amount to as much. The work ethic and good judgement that you think might prevent that from happening would not be there... socialization dictates more than you know about yourself



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7039 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
I think too many people are judging GZ by what they think the law should be.

I consider this a confirmation that the laws need to be clearer.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
anything is somehow racist

Have I suggested it was racist? I have consistently said his fault was to follow Martin and repeatedly pick up the trail when Martin tried to get way. To me it is provoking and probably stalking. The question about stalking, as I see it, is if willful relates to the the intent of the person following or the impression portrayed to the person being followed.

Why did Zimmerman not walk away when confronted by Martin? My first comment about this case was asking why Martin should have walked away but not Zimmerman? The more I've learned the more relevant this question has become and I really can't see how Zimmerman can be considered without guilt and thus the laws need to be corrected so that it is clear it isn't acceptable to provoke in this manner.

Florida's self defence law mentions provoking as reason to lose the right to self defense. Apparently it needs to better describe what provoke means.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
What people need to accept is if YOU were born as a minority in the inner city, you'd most likely make the same mistakes people around you make and not amount to as much.

What people need to understand, but never accept, is that a) doing the same mistakes will have different effect based on where you live. b) Will have different effect based on if you look white or black in the same neighborhood. (usually but not always to the benefit of the white)

But I don't think racism is a major issue in this case. While I do think Martin being black did raise suspicion with Zimmerman I think it was related to that many of the previous burglaries had been by blacks. I think a bigger part was how he was dressed and how he walked in the rain.

In my opinion the jury reached wrong conclusion, in no small part because the prosecution did a poor job, and this should be corrected by making the laws clearer.


User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7041 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
Need I remind you that one of the most violent gangs, MS13, are Salvadorian? Los Zetas are Mexican, there's the Aryan Brotherhood... need I go on?

Yep thats why in LA or the desert SW they are profiled as well.. Hey stereotypes sometimes fit when detectives are looking for a serial killer they usually are never looking for a black or hispanic it is always usually a white male. Profiling sucks but it is used like it or not even with whites depending on the crime. In my "hood" blacks are the usual suspects in most crimes in others cities it may be mexican or whatever. I am just saying in most inner cities gangs are either black or latino haven't really ever seen white gangs. I know it may happen but I know several black women who have multiple kids with multiple fathers does it happen with whites sure but not near to the extent it does with blacks. I just think this is a root cause of crime with our youth because they have no direction and are left to find it on the streets. Hispanics have multiple kids but usually with the same father and sometimes it has the same results too. I don't care what anyone says yes you can raise a child right in a single parent household but we know this is not happening here. People who cannot support one child do not need to have any more regardless of race I don't care what anyone says. Having a child is not a right. If you cannot support that child and that child is going to run the streets he/she is everyones problem in the future and thats the reason we have the hood rats. I am not saying Travon Martin did anything wrong but he was a problem child too and was suspect. Now Zimmerman should have watched but stayed back and not provoked a situation thats where he went wrong. I think the Florida jury just went with what they had at the time. But in another case where the black women who shot over her abusive husbands head got 20 years was bullshit too. I am for fair justice but that was far from fair I would go to bat for that women this is where blacks actually have a case on my opinion. I know justice is skewed against them. I don't know what the answer is.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7040 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
I consider this a confirmation that the laws need to be clearer.

I completely agree. I think the current law is inadequate and it ties in with my whole entire gun control ideas

And sorry cmf! The first paragraph was addressed towards you and the rest was just talking about the topic at hand. I'm not saying you're racist  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7035 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
I completely agree. I think the current law is inadequate and it ties in with my whole entire gun control ideas

And just what is that? ... This is my problem with liberals Chicago has strict gun control and has more gun violence than almost anywhere in the country. Criminals will get guns no doubt about it. All gun laws do is take it away from law abiding citizens. As far as stand your ground? I don't know enough about it..But in my state of Mississippi if you are even stealing something out of my garage I can shoot to kill. Is it right? I don't know but I am glad I have the option to protect my house and property without repercussions. Not like the liberal states where I am at the mercy of criminals who have a gun.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7002 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Black (not African-American...he's Nigerian by ethnicity)



But then why is our president who is 1/2 white and 1/2 kenyan called a African-American? To play the race game that is why causing more harm to race realtions. If they had been honest from the beginning and called him the first bi-racial President it would have done much more for race relations.

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Quoting n318ea (Reply 6):
Any other 17 year old black person killed in black on black violence wouldn't have made the News. Look up Chicago statistics for verification.

Lets not kid ourselves. The circumstances in the Zimmerman case are not typical



Yes they are. Self Defense happens everyday.

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
I agree he was overcharged and he probably had no intention to shoot until just before he reached for the gun. That said it was his actions that created the situation leading up to the shooting.
Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Anyone calling for personal responsibility should be up over arms that he got out free.



If yo want to continue with these arguemnets maybe you should continue to follow the trail that led to this incident. Like Trayvon should of been in school that day instead of being suspended from school. Maybe the personal responsibility of trayvon who should not of been a dope smoking, bus driver punching punk who also was cuaght woth stolen jewelery. Where was his parents and their responsibility?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 9):
This is gonna sound cold and callous, but I personally could care less about gang bangers and drug dealers dying in gun violence, as far as i'm concerned they deserve it



So you think Trayvon deserved it?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The state failed to prove its case.

From a legal stand point..it did.



From every standpoint they did.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Yep totally true in part, because the defendant cleverly 'gamed' the system, he put 'Stand Your Ground' to the test, covered all his tracks (got caught lying) but made sure no one was around to refute his version...the perfect crime



Not the way six jurors saw it.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
But many Caucasian looking Hispanics like Zimmerman prefer identifying themselves as just 'white' they see it as advantageous...



Just like our bi-racial President checks the African American box because he saw it as advantageous.LOL

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 14):
Yep funny thing is the media is feeding the frenzy that now young black youth will have to be in fear of the white man after the Zimmerman verdict when the fact remains that 94% of young black males who will be killed by violence will be at the hands of other young black males but no one wants to go there. The Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons make their living off keeping the race baiting going



Bingo. And many go sunsoved or never have the killer arrested due to lack of evidence.

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Then why was Zimmerman so worried about a black guy looking around "suspiciously"? Two thirds of all burglaries are made by whites.



But in his neighborhood most are black. the police had even warned about gangs using hoodies in his area doing the robberies.

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
Quoting stratosphere (Reply 19):
Maybe not in his neighborhood.

You're missing the point. He was using statistics to justify profiling. By that ,poor, standard you should look for white people in relation to burglaries



They had been using the statistics for his neighborhood. Blacks with hoodies doing the robberies.

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious,



Six jurors did not agree with you.

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
"Any system that would allow George Zimmerman to legally carry a concealed weapon, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious, legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities, and then legally use deadly force in the resulting altercation — I mean, come on — any system that would legally allow all of that is fucking broken."



personal opinion. Not those of the Jurors.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
It was Zimmerman who kept following Martin thus causing the confrontation
Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
They instructed him not to follow. Look at the reenactment and it is clear he didn't stop.



you keep on continuing with these lies like a broken record.

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
t, gun owners should not be responsible for what their actions cause, just everyone else



Not when it is self defense.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 807 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6967 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
As a gay man, I often hear a lot of: "Just because I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle doesn't make me a homophobe."

Yes it does. In fact, that's the exact definition of homophobia.

If we are going to address race relations, the first thing that we are going to have to do is accept that racism DOES exist. And we are going to have to accept that many of us are racist, even those of us who wish we weren't. I am a horrible racist, although I accept it about myself and thus try to modulate my behavior with that knowledge in mind. It's my way of ensuring that, although I am not color-blind, and although I have racist tendencies, I can expect it out of myself and thus I can curb any resulting behavior.

I'll try to remember this the next time people in here trash religion.

Racism, homophobia, religious bigotry. It's all the same.

[Edited 2013-07-16 06:45:33]

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6951 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Yes they are. Self Defense happens everyday.

Not with the person claiming self defense initiating it by following and picking up the trail twice.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
If yo want to continue with these arguemnets maybe you should continue to follow the trail that led to this incident. Like Trayvon should of been in school that day instead of being suspended from school. Maybe the personal responsibility of trayvon who should not of been a dope smoking, bus driver punching punk who also was cuaght woth stolen jewelery. Where was his parents and their responsibility?

None of that is relevant as it doesn't change that Martin had every right to be and do what he did when Zimmerman decided to follow him.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
But in his neighborhood most are black. the police had even warned about gangs using hoodies in his area doing the robberies.

Doesn't change that Martin had every right to walk where he walked and wear what he did without being harrased by anybody.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Six jurors did not agree with you.

Don't they? You actually claim that they said it is legal to harass someone you think look suspicious... Instead of saying there wasn't enough evidence to hold him responsible to the degree required by the law for the crimes they were tasked to have an opinion on? Reality is that they did not provide any judgement on that part because they were not asked to do that. A mistake by the prosecution'.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Not those of the Jurors.

When did the jury make you their spokesperson? All you state is nothing but your personal opinion.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 33):
you keep on continuing with these lies like a broken record.

Did Zimmerman follow Martin, yes or no?
Had Zimmerman been told he shouldn't follow people during the neighborhood training traing and then got reminded about it during the call to the police and did Zimmerman still follow in the direction he had seen Martin go, yes or no?

The answers are in the re-enactment and I am sure you will not be able to support and no on either of those questions and thus can't claim I lied. But what do facts matter to a made up mind? Surprise me and and make a supported claim.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Not when it is self defense.

And whenever a gun owner shoot someone it is self defense no matter what happened before... Sorry, but even the extremely pro Florida self defense laws recognise that provoking removes your right to self defense and only give it back under specific circumstances.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Agreed, given the OP's history, but maybe he's sincere..

I am quite sincere here.

But why don't you post some of that history. If you're calling me out, go find some of those posts...if you're going to accuse me of racism, you better back it up.

Would be nice if you could contribute to a legitimately thought provoking thread without engaging in ad hominem attacks.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6935 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
Quoting cmf (Reply 2):
Seems you suggest CNN created white hispanic, do you?

I believe they were the first to profile (yes, that's the term, right?) Zimmerman in that way. If I'm incorrect, please confirm where it was first uttered in relation to this case.



Correct they based this case on race and when they found out that Zimmerman was 100% caucasian then they had to spin with the white hispanic. This is part of the continueing trend on why we continue to have bad race relations.

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
But sadly, much of the blame by so-called "community activists" (Quanell X in Houston comes immediately to mind) is put upon the white community.



As long as whites are continued to be portrayed as the only group of people that have racists tendencies in them then we will continue to have problems.

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
So I think the black on black violence has a LOT to do with race relations. Because the blame game is a cottage industry. And the internal problems of black communities are NOT internal...the impact spills over into many other facets of our lives. I mean, just in the 513 days between Martin being killed and the trial verdict, 11,106 blacks have been killed by other blacks. We should be focused on ALL of those, not merely one, no matter the circumstances of it.



Bingo...

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
You're right on target here. But what can we do about it? The media gives Sharpton (he of Tawana Brawley, Hymietown, etc, etc fame...) an open forum, a platform to spew his vitriol, to create divide



He IS a racists. Yet they continue to portray white conservatives as the only people on this planet as being racists when nothing can be farther from the truth. And their continueing insistance on this line is what makes the lines harden more and more.

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
OK, go pull those posts. I challenge you. You're very thinly implying I'm racist. So either back it up or I'll take it to the mods (after all, that's your M.O., is it not?) Back it up or back off. Now, I've said and will CONTINUE to say plenty about islam, but that has nothing to do with race and has everything to do with a totalitarian system with which I vehemently disagree. But where are you going with this?



Another great point that has been perpetuated over the years. If you try to talk about problems in the black community you must be racist. Vote against a bi-racial man and you must be racist. Vote for a black conservative well he must be an Uncle Tom... the left has made race a cottage industry and it is getting very old and tiring and is making things worse and not better. Which i think is what they want becasue it makes it easier for them to control people.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6928 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
This happens ALL the time. Black people get pulled over for no reason other than being black. And if that happens, then you can imagine what other sorts of racism there is.

Here's a great video about just how bad racial profiling is: http://www.upworthy.com/know-anyone-...-and-tell-me-when-your-jaw-drops-2

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 7):
the criminal justice system is biased against minorities blacks get harsher sentences than hispanics and both get bigger punishments for the exact same crime that a white person does on an aggregate. All DA's across the US that charge minorities with larger penalties than whites need to be called out on it.

   Do DAs see the race of a suspect when deciding what to prosecute them with? I can't see any reason why they should. Just look at the evidence and charge the suspect with what seems appropriate - seems simple enough.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 33):
This is my problem with liberals Chicago has strict gun control and has more gun violence than almost anywhere in the country.

Because neighboring states are more than happy to act as suppliers for Chicago.

The whole Zimmerman/Martin case is a fantastic example of why it might be a good idea not to have such high gun ownership. If Zimmerman didn't have a gun, he might have not been tempted to try and pursue Martin in the first place, and the confrontation never happens and an innocent kid would be alive. Jordan Davis would be alive today if Michael Dunn didn't have a gun with which to shoot him after he thought he saw Davis with a gun. There are certain places where there are just too many people in close proximity to each other and too many opportunities for misunderstandings to have widespread gun ownership and still keep innocent people from losing their lives. I realize that not every place is like that, which is why places should be able to set their own laws. But there have to be other mechanisms to ensure that people buying guns in those states actually live in those states and aren't engaging in trafficking.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 33):
As far as stand your ground? I don't know enough about it..But in my state of Mississippi if you are even stealing something out of my garage I can shoot to kill. Is it right?

No. No it isn't.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6927 times:

Part of race that has not been covered in this case by the mainstream media is the problems in the Miami Dade School system. The Police in the school system fall under a different program and the Chief is hired and fired by the Dept of ED.

Quote:
It was only when the M-DSPD Internal Affairs investigation kicked in, and six officers gave sworn affidavits, the manipulative scheme to improve criminal statistics within the School System were identified openly.

School Superintendent Alberto Carvalho gave his hire, Police Chief Hurley, instructions to reduce the criminal behavior of young black males. The chosen strategy between them, to insure optical success, was to stop using the Criminal Justice System to punish black student behavior. Instead they instructed the School Resource Officers to use school discipline in place of criminal justice.

Another approach was the use of The Baker Act, to quantify behaviors under health HIPPA law secrecy by assigning the students with psychological problems. This allowed them to again use school discipline and work around criminal reports.

Without the reports, the statistics would improve immensely; And improve they did.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...ecap-six-officer-sworn-affidavits/

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...dia-school-police-prosecutors.html

It is policies and programs like this that add to the continueing problems with race relations. The M-DSPD Chief has since resigned after this investigation was completed. Where was the race baiters and hustlers in the media on this story?



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6931 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
and an innocent kid would be alive

He was not an "innocent" Kid. And this continues to part of the big lie. If he had been busted for the theft of the jewelery in his posession then he would never of been in Sanford. Had he not been expelled from school then he would not of been in Sanford. Had he not been high maybe he would not of been so paranoid and needed the munchies from the 7-11. But no you go right to if Zimmerman did not have a gun. This is all part of the race problem when people see them trying to paint Trayvon as a cute little kid and Zimmerman as the racist, when the racists in this case are the ones controlling the narrative in the media.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 42):
He was not an "innocent" Kid. And this continues to part of the big lie. If he had been busted for the theft of the jewelery in his posession then he would never of been in Sanford. Had he not been expelled from school then he would not of been in Sanford. Had he not been high maybe he would not of been so paranoid and needed the munchies from the 7-11. But no you go right to if Zimmerman did not have a gun. This is all part of the race problem when people see them trying to paint Trayvon as a cute little kid and Zimmerman as the racist, when the racists in this case are the ones controlling the narrative in the media

Why do you keep bringing this up. It is a perfect example of bias and profiling in this case. What happened in Miami does not have a bearing on why Zimmerman shot him. What happened between Zimmerman and Martin is known only to Zimmerman and Martin can't tell his side. The bias you are dragging into this case is a preconceived notion of innocence or guilt. Which isn't applicable to the issue that occurred.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6884 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
Had he not been high maybe he would not of been so paranoid and needed the munchies from the 7-11.

You've never smoked weed before, have you?



Flying refined.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3355 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6851 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
But no you go right to if Zimmerman did not have a gun.

If GZ didn't have a gun he probably wouldn't have left his car.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
This is all part of the race problem when people see them trying to paint Trayvon as a cute little kid and Zimmerman as the racist, when the racists in this case are the ones controlling the narrative in the media.

Did GZ he not profile in this case??

I'm not saying that TM was an angel but it is expected than many teens get into some trouble with the hope they get it out of their systems, learn their lessons and go on to be productive adults.

Many white 17 year old get into the same trouble as TM allegedly did, do you honestly paint them the exact same way??

I will tell you that the greater US society fails brilliantly at this and constantly paints white indiscretions as "Boys will be Boys" where as black citizens doing the exact same thing are labelled as pariahs who will never be productive.

It is obvious that you do not like Barack Obama but you have to admit had he had an affair like Reagan or McCain he wouldn't have gotten past Iowa in the primaries. Had he had a DUI like GWB then he wouldn't have had a political career.

My hypothesis for this is that it is constant fear and guilt passed down through generations for how white ancestors treated black people for centuries.

To quote Yoda: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate.. to suffering.


Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
Had he not been high maybe he would not of been so paranoid and needed the munchies from the 7-11.

He was watching the freaking NBA all star game on a Sunday night and had a sweet tooth, also it was 7:15pm and not midnight. To profile a little bit here that is what I would expect from a 17 year old black teenager.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
You've never smoked weed before, have you?

He probably hasn't but could use some.

Just some facts about weed, it isn't linked to an increase in aggressive behavior and the presence of THC in TM's blood (if there was any) doesn't mean he was high as a kite on the night of his death as THC takes months to get out of the body.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6851 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 41):
It is a perfect example of bias and profiling in this case.

But the jury didn't know that.

We out here in the cheap seats put together a profile perhaps, but all of that information--including Martin's text messages--were ruled inadmissible.

Let me ask you though, based on this info--not his skin color--but purely based on his actions and such, why is profiling a bad thing? We have a guy who was not a little angel. GZ didn't know that either, but his decision to watch where TM was going ended up being pretty prescient on balance of KNOWN information: break-in history in neighborhood, suspicious behavior, etc.

But that's separate from the race issue, which is the main thrust of my point.

How do you empower an entire group of people who have been conditioned over decades to be angry victims to break free from that?


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6843 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Agreed, given the OP's history, but maybe he's sincere..

I am quite sincere here.

But why don't you post some of that history. If you're calling me out, go find some of those posts...if you're going to accuse me of racism, you better back it up.

This thread..


Blacks Being Pimped By The DNC (by Wilax Aug 9 2004 in Non Aviation)

and this one


African American Chat (Multiple Issues) (by TedTAce Sep 17 2005 in Non Aviation)

and this


Mexico Can Bite One... (by Slider Jan 10 2006 in Non Aviation)

and here


Reparations For Slavery? (by AerospaceFan Jan 16 2006 in Non Aviation)

again


Hate Crime Legislation...what's The Point? (by MaverickM11 Sep 17 2004 in Non Aviation)

...there is more, honestly, to hear you say you are 'troubled by all Race Relations'..given your past views.. I saw it coming and the thread above and many more indicate it. To anyone with a conscience that is. Some people are unaffected and fiercely defensive til the very end in their staunch views on these matters..they end up in the most pain when realized they've unfair, unjust and wrong in their 'adopted' views. Nothing is more torturous in advanced age than 'regrets.. they become nightmares.

but I gotta run and will post more if you like.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
why is profiling a bad thing? We have a guy who was not a little angel. GZ didn't know that either,

I never said profiling was a bad thing.
GZ wasn't an angel either. He had charges raised and dropped as well. Profiling isn't a bad thing ,but it is something that has to be securely held in check, because it causes preconceived notions that may or may not be in play.

Percentages and odds may be in favor of a profile, but they don't guarantee an outcome. I can tell you that you have a 50% chance of heads when you flip a coin, but I can't tell you with certainty what the outcome of the next flip will be. Previous history has no bearing on the next flip. Just as preconceived notions based on profile will not dictate the outcome of your next encounter.

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
How do you empower an entire group of people who have been conditioned over decades to be angry victims to break free from that?

I don't know, you are the Fox news fan right?  


Seriously though, I don't think it is a fact of being an angry victim, I think certain groups see the media treatment of folks they align or a case that goes against their guy instincts, and they get angry.

It could be a many different walks of life. Not just Race. I think things are getting better. However a good deal of the population over 50 has lived in a world where Racism was much more pronounced. The echos are getting dimmer of it, but there are enough parents and grandparents that lived it, that there are still repercussions from it.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinen318ea From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6797 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 8):

This is gonna sound cold and callous, but I personally could care less about gang bangers and drug dealers dying in gun violence, as far as i'm concerned they deserve it. But you're confused if you think innocent kids dying in the crossfire don't get national attention...in fact, why don't you follow your own advise and look up the shooting of Hadiya Pendleton in Chicago, which garnered national attention.

If anyone is confused by their :facts," it's you. The Jesse Jackson's an Al Sharpton's, NAACP are not in Chicago because they can't make any money. President Zero's hometown in a perfect example of how you can get re-elected as a Democrat spending millions of dollars fighting poverty and accomplishing nothing to fix the problem.
Bush probably did it!  Smile

[Edited 2013-07-16 11:49:49]

User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6777 times:

Quoting n318ea (Reply 48):
If anyone is confused by their :facts," it's you. The Jesse Jackson's an Al Sharpton's, NAACP are not in Chicago because they can't make any money. President Zero's hometown

..and there is the perfect concrete mindset that keeps the worse kind of racism firmly entrenched in American Society.. one can only imagine if someone speaks this way on the internet do they also continue in public areas and just who listens to this..

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinen318ea From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6762 times:

(CNSNews.com) – In the 20-day period of the George Zimmerman trial, four minors – three teens and a five-year-old boy - were gunned down in Chicago, according to Homicide Watch Chicago, a Chicago Sun-Times publication, which details every murder that takes place in the city.

Sorry, I was looking for my sheet and hood. Zero National outrage reference the above.

[Edited 2013-07-16 12:27:31]

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6755 times:

Quoting n318ea (Reply 50):

Did you forget to add your personal comment?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8944 posts, RR: 40
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6745 times:

Well, minorities are disadvantaged in a democracy because they simply don't have enough votes. In practical terms, their issues won't bubble up to the top until they become really bad, if they bubble up to the top at all.

In this regard, all I can say is that blacks should be careful when they support a greater role of the federal government in society's affairs. That will only dilute their voices by making them an even smaller minority in the long run.

Yes, just as it happened with Jim Crow laws, you can use other state's with more enlightened voters as allies to bring down laws in states with less enlightened voters, so there is some merit to the strategy. But remember that northern states abolished slavery and jim crow laws before the federal government. Reaching majority power status in a state is easier than in the entire country, as is evident throughout U.S. history, it just happens in some places before it happens in others.

Look at the issue of federal versus state drug laws. There are a few states that are moving in a new direction when it comes to drug laws, but thanks to the federalization of this issue, the path has been complicated and no doubt has caused and/or will cause delays in the makeover of how drugs are dealt with. And until there are enough allies in other states, nothing short of a miraculous Supreme Court decision is probably going to reverse this. And that's if the Congress doesn't pass a law after such a decision negating the decision.

What was once used as a short cut to get the entire country under one standard is turning into something that causes delays.

[Edited 2013-07-16 12:36:16]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6713 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 45):
but I gotta run and will post more if you like.

LOL! You’re reaching.

“Kudos Wilax....I respect you a great deal for having the courage to admit your beliefs...but to the poverty pimps of the left, esp the "Reverend" Je$$e Jack$son, you're an uncle tom, a sellout, an oreo. It's sadly ironic (and yet quite transparent) that the so-called black leadership, the Cong Black Caucus, etc, all claim to advocate the advancement of blacks all while subverting them. Hmmm....

Wilax, the courage of your convictions should see you through, as I'm sure it already has.

Bill Cosby was right on the money when he had his tirade last month. The black community needs to have REAL leadership, and self-responsibility needs to come to the forefront instead of the cult of victimization.

The politics of race is an interesting and heated one. I have black conservative friends as well who denounce the corrupt disgusting rap culture. And yes, some that were from the hood. Their opinions are pretty interesting.

But you seldom ehar their voices in the debate, because they're drowned out by the other (and incorrect) points of view.

Wilax- don't know if you've read much by these guys, but there are some great black conservative commentators/writers that I can heartily recommend: Thomas Sowell, Alan Keyes, Walter Williams, Mychael Massie, Larry Elder, and Clarence Thomas as well.”

Yes, that’s a terribly inflammatory racist post! Haha!!

And another one…

“Ted- No disrespect, but you just framed the argument incorrectly.

We've poured trillions into the war on poverty, and have engaged in behavior that has ENABLED dependency and entitlements to continue.

Tough love is what we need. But few want to talk about that, and when a guy like Bill Cosby does preach personal responsibility, he's summarily ignored while Farrakhan gets a mic shoved under his piehole to yammer on UNCHECKED about how whity blew up the levee...

That's a big part of the problem.

Thomas Sowell's new book goes into a lot of this black culture, which is a big factor in how this pathology is carried from one generation to the next.”

Yeah, talking about empowerment is terribly racist....yawn.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 46):
I don't know, you are the Fox news fan right?

Don't watch it, or really any broadcast news except for live election coverages and some special events and breaking stuff (plane crashes, etc). Nope.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 46):
It could be a many different walks of life. Not just Race. I think things are getting better. However a good deal of the population over 50 has lived in a world where Racism was much more pronounced. The echos are getting dimmer of it, but there are enough parents and grandparents that lived it, that there are still repercussions from it.

This is a great observation...thanks cas. I would certainly like to think it's getting better. I've seen it improve just in my generation. Heck, in the airline business (and so many global businesses) we work with an amazingly diverse bunch of fine people. And I see it with my kids too--where they grow up in a very mixed neighborhood, schools that are every culture and race, etc. You framed it well--the echos are fading, but there are times like this when that scab is ripped off and it just doesn't seem like there's been any progress. Frustrating. On so many levels.

I remember my grandparents talking about segregated bathrooms, etc. It just seems surreal--like a different dimension, compared to today. And coming from a strong military family, I think my roots were more progressive in terms of integration because they saw in the military a meritocracy.

But so much work to be done.


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1938 posts, RR: 32
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6687 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 20):
"Any system that would allow George Zimmerman to legally carry a concealed weapon, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious, legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities, and then legally use deadly force in the resulting altercation — I mean, come on — any system that would legally allow all of that is fucking broken."

About sums it up. I think the jury came to the verdict they had to, but that doesn't mean that something isn't very broken.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 30):
But in another case where the black women who shot over her abusive husbands head got 20 years was bullshit too. I am for fair justice but that was far from fair I would go to bat for that women this is where blacks actually have a case on my opinion. I know justice is skewed against them. I don't know what the answer is.


It's hard to see these two cases at the same time and not see how biased the system is. It really drives the point home. One group of people almost always gets the benefit of the doubt, another almost always does not.

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
How do you empower an entire group of people who have been conditioned over decades to be angry victims to break free from that?

It would be extremely conceptually helpful for people making arguments along your lines to turn this question around on its head. Watch for example the link that Mir posted and then ask this:

How do you empower an entire group of people who have been conditioned over decades (centuries) to exploit and defend their white privilege (even unknowingly) to break free from that?

Perhaps everyone has work to do, but the second half of the equation is equally or more important.

___________________________

I also reject the cynicism expressed by many here about "race-baiting" activists. There are some such people, but it is overplayed. To assume that all or most people who devote their lives to racial activism on behalf of minorities are doing it for personal gain and want injustice to continue is patently ridiculous.
___________________________

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 28):
What kills me is if you are a minority born in a bad part of town, it's almost impossible for you to amount to anything. Someone will always be able to point to an event or two that they "shouldn't have done, serves you right" but the reality is, every single person has done something wrong or made mistakes... in white suburbia, that lack of judgement may not end your life, throw you behind bars, etc.

It is quite easy to 'buckle down' and set things straight for a few months or even a couple years but pretty much impossible for a whole lifetime. What people need to accept is if YOU were born as a minority in the inner city, you'd most likely make the same mistakes people around you make and not amount to as much. The work ethic and good judgement that you think might prevent that from happening would not be there... socialization dictates more than you know about yourself

By the way, great points and relevant to many other threads, including especially the discussion in that abortion thread that turned to taxes and fair opportunities.

[Edited 2013-07-16 14:03:38]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6661 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 52):
Wilax- don't know if you've read much by these guys, but there are some great black conservative commentators/writers that I can heartily recommend: Thomas Sowell, Alan Keyes, Walter Williams, Mychael Massie, Larry Elder, and Clarence Thomas as well.”

That right there is Paula Deen's problem..not saying the 'n-word' .. but a state of mind.

You and her (and those that think like you) have this list of 'good blacks'.. the subservient ones, the one's constantly sing the tunes of self-condemnation and praise of the White Status quo. The forever embracing of the Uncle Tom mentality and appointing yourself as knowing what's good for Blacks in America when in truth .. you know nothing about them - other than the negative reported stats you've come to memorize. Paula longs for the days good ol' subservient blacks.. your comments places you right on her heels.

The worse type of arrogance is where you think you know what is best for eople when you know nothing about those people. Worse part is...you don't even see the flaw in it.

Quoting slider (Reply 52):
Thomas Sowell's new book goes into a lot of this black culture, which is a big factor in how this pathology is carried from one generation to the next.”

Yeah, talking about empowerment is terribly racist....yawn.

After that post 9 years ago, as sincere as this thread started, like a magnet you gravitated back to those old deranged thoughts..and still believe them to be correct - that will not get you remotely close to the answers you seek. ..not in this life.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1773 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6654 times:

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The entire thing was hijacked by the race business, including the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman “white Hispanic” by CNN (whatever the hell that means).

"White Hispanic" does have meaning. 'Hispanic' is not a 'race', but an ethnicity: language, religion, cultural practices. Think of Sammy Sosa, Edward James Olmos and Cameron Diaz. All of them 'Hispanic' but belonging to different 'races'. And I use the term 'race' reluctantly for it has no strict taxonomic meaning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6620 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
And just what is that?

Not a gun control thread so I won't go into too much detail, but I think there are a lot of good measures that could be put in place that are not unreasonable and don't infringe on any rights. The only inconvenience would come in the form of things gun owners should be doing already... requiring safety classes, better background checks, a real system of tracking who has what gun/registration (though that would have to be implemented carefully,) proper storage, etc

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
This is my problem with liberals Chicago has strict gun control and has more gun violence than almost anywhere in the country.

Sigh... do you think this issue is as simple as a simple correlation between guns and crime? That would be absurdly simple to test and there wouldn't even be a debate. What about the tough control in Europe with lower crimes? What about the amount of guns in Afganistan and their higher crime? What about Switzerland and their guns and their low crime? The reason why these examples don't correlate is because there are dozens of factors that go into it.

But surely, you know that... why continue to use that argument?

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
Criminals will get guns no doubt about it.

Agreed, but you're incorrectly assuming completely black and white scenarios. It isn't perfectly safe and proficient great American citizen vs criminal mastermind moral-less Joe Thug. You can cut down on accidents with good training. Cut down on kid deaths and gun theft with safes. Shady people that aren't quite criminals may use a gun if they have the gun and may not bother if they have to do the simplest of safety classes (which good gun owners would do anyway.) Etc etc, not the thread for it really, but these simplistic and misleading arguments do nothing for us gun owners. We're just pissing off America and soon their votes will turn into action. I'd rather be proactive (as we should be anyway) and let less idiots run around with guns so we all don't suffer

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
All gun laws do is take it away from law abiding citizens.

The laws I have in mind don't. And if taking a simple gun safety class ever so often or refusing to buy a gun safe prevents someone from getting a gun they probably aren't competent enough to have a gun anyway

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
As far as stand your ground? I don't know enough about it..But in my state of Mississippi if you are even stealing something out of my garage I can shoot to kill. Is it right? I don't know but I am glad I have the option to protect my house and property without repercussions. Not like the liberal states where I am at the mercy of criminals who have a gun.

There are different scenarios and trust me, I'm actually on the conservative side of this issue, but I don't think you should be able to blast away at shadowy figures in your house, I don't believe in stand your ground (you should retreat IF possible even if it makes you a "pussy,") and I don't think property is worth more than human life, even thug criminal life. If you or others are in real, grave danger and the ONLY option is to shoot, by all means, do it. And I don't buy into the "shoot in the arm" crap either... that is more unsafe than people know and extremely unrealistic. If you are to the level of shooting, you should be at the level where if you kill someone, you're justified.

Sometimes, sadly, I think more people have the macho cowboy attitude than my attitude, which I find completely reasonable, and it almost seems like the gun grabbers have a point. The worst enemy of gun owners, IMO, are gun owners. We absolutely need to be responsible and we should be the ones putting forth legislation to keep ourselves safe and honest and not have everyone else live in fear of some of our fellow gun owners' irresponsibility



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 57, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6615 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 34):

Racism, homophobia, religious bigotry. It's all the same.

No, it really isn't. Unless you believe you can choose your race or sexual orientation... oh, wait... you can't.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 58, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6618 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 57):
No, it really isn't. Unless you believe you can choose your race or sexual orientation... oh, wait... you can't.

Technically, you really can't. You can choose how you act upon your beliefs, but you can't change them just like that. If I held a gun up to an atheist's head and told them they had to believe in God or I'd kill them, do you think they could just choose to believe? Conversely, if I held a gun up to a devout Christian's head and told them to not believe in God, they could say they didn't all day but do you think they could just amend their beliefs just like that?

Plus, what does it matter if it's a choice or not? That doesn't mean you should treat anyone unfairly. And I'm not talking about banning criticism of religions... that doesn't qualify as disrespect or bigotry (assuming you remain respectful, don't discriminate, etc)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 59, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6584 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 58):
If I held a gun up to an atheist's head and told them they had to believe in God or I'd kill them, do you think they could just choose to believe? Conversely, if I held a gun up to a devout Christian's head and told them to not believe in God, they could say they didn't all day but do you think they could just amend their beliefs just like that?

Neither could change them on a dime, but they could eventually change them if they wanted to. That can't be said for race or sexual orientation.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 60, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6575 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 59):
Neither could change them on a dime, but they could eventually change them if they wanted to.

I don't know, if you're an atheist and don't buy into religion I don't see how you can eventually believe. Not really my point though, I don't think it matters whether it's a choice or not, people can be discriminatory against religions even if religious preference is deemed as a choice. Now, some people will define discrimination as something absurd (like saying being for gay marriage is discriminating against religion) but I'm not talking about that. The context of the conversation leads you to what I'm trying to say



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 61, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6529 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 46):
This thread..


Blacks Being Pimped By The DNC (by Wilax Aug 9 2004 in Non Aviation)




This thread actually shows your racism with your first post

Quote:
Hate Crime legislation on the surface basically is used to serve notice to those of the mentality that by 'killing, brutalizing an asian, black or gay' is no longer exceptable behavior



You forgot to add white....And imply that it is whites who commit "hate" crimes.

And honestly after going through these threads above you are grasping at straws with this line of attack on Slider.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 44):
If GZ didn't have a gun he probably wouldn't have left his car.



And you know that by? And if Trayvon did not smoke weed and get busted at school he would not of been in Sanford.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 44):
Did GZ he not profile in this case??



Yes because the local police had said that the robberies in the neighborhood had been committed by gangbangers with hoodies. Profiling does not make a person a racist. Seeing someone on a rainy night with a hood pulled over and walking through the homes would not register as suspicious to you living in a neighborhood that had a large number of burgarlies?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 44):
Many white 17 year old get into the same trouble as TM allegedly did, do you honestly paint them the exact same way??



Yes. Why do people want to interject race into everything?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 41):
Why do you keep bringing this up. It is a perfect example of bias and profiling in this case. What happened in Miami does not have a bearing on why Zimmerman shot him. What happened between Zimmerman and Martin is known only to Zimmerman and Martin can't tell his side. The bias you are dragging into this case is a preconceived notion of innocence or guilt. Which isn't applicable to the issue that occurred.



It is not bias or profiling. I am just tired of the media and people on forums who keep showing the 12 or 13 year old little Trayvon and painting him as some good little kid. He was neither a kid nor good.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 54):
You and her (and those that think like you) have this list of 'good blacks'.. the subservient ones, the one's constantly sing the tunes of self-condemnation and praise of the White Status quo. The forever embracing of the Uncle Tom mentality and appointing yourself as knowing what's good for Blacks in America when in truth


I really have to laugh when you try to paint others as racist. When it is obvious from your posts over the years that is is you who has the issues.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6517 times:
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Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
Yes. Why do people want to interject race into everything?

Because it's the best and easiest excuse for everything. The race card can trump all. The constant introduction of race into every single blasted issue actually severely detracts from proper action being able to be taken against real racism and its causes. Racism should be addressed robustly, but not by pretending it's a part of every single thing that ever involves people of different races. It doesn't heighten awareness of the real issues, it makes people weary of the same old crap and excuses.

Windy, I thought I'd probably never see the day, but I agree with absolutely all of that post.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 807 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6479 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 57):
No, it really isn't. Unless you believe you can choose your race or sexual orientation... oh, wait... you can't.


The issue isn't what you are or what you believe. The issue is that you are discriminated against for what your are or what you believe. So yes, it is all the same.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6468 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
It is not bias or profiling. I am just tired of the media and people on forums who keep showing the 12 or 13 year old little Trayvon and painting him as some good little kid. He was neither a kid nor good.

It is Bias and Profiling 100%. You are using expected behavior based on your current knowledge of what Martin was , to justify Zimmerman's actions against someone he didn't know at all.

He was no Angel, but neither was Zimmerman. I served as the Jury Foreman in a Felony Assault case, and the one thing we all came away with is that their were multiple instances where either party could have backed down, and they didn't.

What I do not like about the Zimmerman case is that Zimmerman decided to solve his problems with a gun, and probably felt emboldened to escalate a situation that could have been easily defused. Now the situation could have gone down as Zimmerman told it, but I highly doubt it. Some elements of the truth were probably there, but my experienced in an assault case and in general life shows that each side eggs on a situation past where most reasonable people stand down.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 65, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6464 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 53):
How do you empower an entire group of people who have been conditioned over decades (centuries) to exploit and defend their white privilege (even unknowingly) to break free from that?

Perhaps everyone has work to do, but the second half of the equation is equally or more important.

OK, that's an interesting spin on that. I've been thinking about it. I can understand that reversal of perspective there.

However, here's my take on that: today's generation has grown up without that so-called 'white privilege' by and large. In fact, any of these Gen X'ers or Millenials or whatever the hell they're called today have grown up in an age of affirmative action, quotas, a colorblind society that's been integrated for some time. It is those people who really are over the race thing because they don't see that as a big deal, they marry interracially, and don't bat an eye over this stuff.

I guess it's that side of the argument for which I'm optimistic...and I've seen it with my kids too. It's encouraging really. Because much of prior generations wasn't racist per se as much as they were just ignorant. Whites hung out with whites, blacks with blacks and seldom the twain ever met. That entire paradigm is totally different now. But I think that also requires a great deal of responsibility by BOTH groups. And it's that lack of said responsibility by too many pot-stirring agitators that troubles me and sabotages race relations and the improvements we've had.

And, to digress a bit from that, it's the RESPONSIBILITY that is crucial. And there's a certain double standard there. Obviously, the Paula Deen kerfluffle is a good example. But these protests and assaults in the wake of the Zimmerman trial are another. In Houston yesterday, when Quanell X blocked a freeway, a woman was trying to get her child to the hospital because she had an allergic reaction to something. When she confronted the protesters to move so she could get to the TX Medical Center, they attacked her. No one held responsible. No one arrested. So where's the responsibility there? How does that help their cause?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 61):
You forgot to add white....And imply that it is whites who commit "hate" crimes.

And honestly after going through these threads above you are grasping at straws with this line of attack on Slider.

Thanks man. I'm just ignoring him now. I guess talking factually about Islam gets one banned for some time, but calling someone a racist overtly is just fine by the moderators. He's a piece of work.


User currently offlinethesultanofwing From El Salvador, joined Dec 2012, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 8):
This is gonna sound cold and callous, but I personally could care less about gang bangers and drug dealers dying in gun violence

No, it sounds rather warm and caring.......or did you perhaps want to say "could NOT care less"?
The two phrases mean the opposite.....



I feel like the A318 at times: I am probably worth more parted out than as a whole.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6439 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 65):
That entire paradigm is totally different now. But I think that also requires a great deal of responsibility by BOTH groups.
Quoting slider (Reply 65):
And it's that lack of said responsibility by too many pot-stirring agitators that troubles me and sabotages race relations and the improvements
Quoting slider (Reply 65):

And, to digress a bit from that, it's the RESPONSIBILITY that is crucial.

I could not agree more..and where has your RESPONSIBILITY been over all the years of your quips and quotes regarding this very issue? Playing it safe and paralleling the likes of the Limbaugh/Hannity crowd backed up by Paula Deen like thought processes... really walking out on the edge there, taking chances - just great!

The only risk encountered? ...was from people like me who would call you on it. Other than that - it was say what you felt and be responsible for nothing.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6430 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 64):
It is Bias and Profiling 100%. You are using expected behavior based on your current knowledge of what Martin was , to justify Zimmerman's actions against someone he didn't know at all.

No, you are spinning my words the wrong way. Zimmermans actions and what I think of Trayvon now are two seperate things that you keep trying to join together. The FBI and pretty much everyone who has come in contact with GZ have said he is not racist or that nothing showed that race played a part in this unfortunate circumstance. There is nothing wrong with profiling based on what had been happening to protect your community. I have never used Trayvons past to justify what happened or what GZ did. I just keep fighting back against this whole charade that the press has been doing when they continue to say Trayvon was a good little kid and that GZ was a cop wannabe racist. Trayvon was not a good and he was not a kid. I never thought that either of their pasts should be brought into court. That it should of been judged on what happened when they came in contact. Period..was it justified self defense or was it murder. They have done everything to hide Trayvons past and have snowballed a lot of people who have not looked into it but who have just seen the shaped news on CNN at the airport.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6413 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
He was not an "innocent" Kid.

Yes he was. He had done nothing wrong that night until Zimmerman decided that he looked suspicious and decided to be the hero. Zimmerman had no idea what his past was, and so it's completely irrelevant.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6394 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 69):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
He was not an "innocent" Kid.

Yes he was. He had done nothing wrong that night until Zimmerman decided that he looked suspicious and decided to be the hero. Zimmerman had no idea what his past was, and so it's completely irrelevant

But it relavant to Trayvons actions that night. Drugs, theft and punching a school bus driver all are relavant to what he was doing and did that night. How exactly did GZ decide to become a hero. Calling 911 and telling them where he would meet the police who had been dispatched does not sound like he was playing hero.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6381 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):
He probably hasn't but could use some.

I consider his lack of reply to be in the affirmative.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSoJo From UK - England, joined Nov 2012, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6377 times:
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I thought this thread was about race relations in America? What exactly is race relations? Does that mean one of your parents was of different colour than your other parent? Which way do you want to look at race relations? There is no black and white here. It's about colour. In the heat of the moment, at times like this, many people can become "Colour Blind"


RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6355 times:

Quoting SoJo (Reply 72):
It's about colour. In the heat of the moment, at times like this, many people can become "Colour Blind"

What exactly does that mean?

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineSoJo From UK - England, joined Nov 2012, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6339 times:
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Quoting BN747 (Reply 73):
What exactly does that mean?

Exactly what it says. Black , white, any other colour you care to think about. Chuck 'em in a blender and you get?
What colour? Tell me what you think would be the result?



RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 75, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6321 times:

Quoting SoJo (Reply 74):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 73):
What exactly does that mean?

Exactly what it says. Black , white, any other colour you care to think about. Chuck 'em in a blender and you get?
What colour? Tell me what you think would be the result?

The only person to every chunk someone up into a blender was Jeffery Dahmer.. your hypothesis has no real world applications, I've no idea have you're going on about..

..have you read the title of this thread? Race in America .. tons of history on the matter even as it plays out today. Sounds like know little if anything about it.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 76, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6295 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 70):
But it relavant to Trayvons actions that night. Drugs, theft and punching a school bus driver all are relavant to what he was doing and did that night. How exactly did GZ decide to become a hero. Calling 911 and telling them where he would meet the police who had been dispatched does not sound like he was playing hero.

I'd be careful there... you're turning your speculation into fact. Do you have proof of theft? Drugs (especially pot) can be completely benign (usually is,) and what about punching a school bus driver? It sounds vaguely familiar, but I have a feeling that if it actually made a difference we'd hear about it more

Quoting SoJo (Reply 74):
Exactly what it says. Black , white, any other colour you care to think about. Chuck 'em in a blender and you get?
What colour? Tell me what you think would be the result?

    Say what??



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 77, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6254 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 70):
But it relavant to Trayvons actions that night. Drugs, theft and punching a school bus driver all are relavant to what he was doing and did that night.

They're relevant to going to a convenience store and getting some iced tea and skittles? Let's not pretend that's even remotely true.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 70):
How exactly did GZ decide to become a hero. Calling 911 and telling them where he would meet the police who had been dispatched does not sound like he was playing hero.

He tried to follow him and find out what was going on rather than just reporting it and letting the police do their thing.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5491 posts, RR: 28
Reply 78, posted (1 year 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6193 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 76):

I'd be careful there... you're turning your speculation into fact. Do you have proof of theft? Drugs (especially pot) can be completely benign (usually is,) and what about punching a school bus driver? It sounds vaguely familiar, but I have a feeling that if it actually made a difference we'd hear about it more

In any event, young Mr. Martin's behavior in other circumstances, while perhaps interesting to look at for an overall picture of the person, was not relevant to the issues for which Mr. Zimmerman was being tried; hence, this other behavior was (properly) excluded from the evidence provided to the jury. I rather suspect that there are few of us in the general population whose every word and deed could withstand dissection without suffering significant reputational hits.

Assuming (solely for the purpose of discussion) that Trayvon Martin was a troublemaking delinquent, bent on mayhem and destruction, that still does not mean he deserved to die.

Concurrently, assuming (again, solely and exclusively for the sake of discussion) that George Zimmerman was a virulent racist, that does not mean that he committed murder.

By all reports, the judge ran a clean courtroom, excluding evidence which would have been more prejudicial than probative, and aggressively working to ensure that a fair and proper trial was conducted. A jury comprised entirely of apparently -- focused and committed jurors heard an exhaustive array of evidence, presented properly by skilled prosecutors, and defense counsel, and at the conclusion of the entire process, determined that the state had failed to prove a case for either manslaughter, or murder, against the defendant.

This case is not a referendum on race, or at a valuation of the character of the decedent or the accused. Those who contend otherwise, do so either out of ignorance, or animus.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 79, posted (1 year 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Guys, for real, no rehash of the trial or criminal details...we have plenty of other threads for that.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 72):
What exactly is race relations?

Heck, that's a good question. I suppose it's tough to even frame the argument well. Is favorable race relations defined by the lack of hostility? How do you measure what's in a man's heart?


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 80, posted (1 year 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6159 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 80):
Now that you've trashed this kid..

He trashed himself. And he was not a kid..

Quoting BN747 (Reply 80):
What say you on your hero's Child Molesting Past? Please endorse at your leisure. Do you need pictures because her words aren't good enough?

We had already seen this. The mainstream media did everything they could to bring out his past while posting the same pic of the good little 12 year old Trayvon. And he is not my hero. Just that he is not guilty.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 79):
This case is not a referendum on race,

But it was made that anyways by the race hustlers on the left.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 79):
or at a valuation of the character of the decedent or the accused

But they did their best to make GZ out to be a crazy racist and convict him in the court of public opinion



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 81, posted (1 year 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6155 times:

Quoting AM744 (Reply 55):
"White Hispanic" does have meaning. 'Hispanic' is not a 'race', but an ethnicity: language, religion, cultural practices. Think of Sammy Sosa, Edward James Olmos and Cameron Diaz. All of them 'Hispanic' but belonging to different 'races'. And I use the term 'race' reluctantly for it has no strict taxonomic meaning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

Unfortunately "race" and "ethnicity" in the US are political terms for political purposes...case in point this Zimmerman/Martin clash reflexively being addressed as a "white vs. black" issue by the government and media.

But interestingly the last time I filled out the census the US Gov't was particularly concerned about what type of Hispanic I might be but couldn't care less whether my family came here from Norway or Greece. Apparently that's all just "White". Now all of a sudden because Trayvon Martin is dead, Zimmerman and I are blood brothers? Sorry. If the Gov't and media want to pander to "Hispanic" as a political race/ethnic category and generally dice up the people into categories to meet their political objectives, they can't just lump them in under "White" when it makes a better story.

I don't much like looking at people in terms of racial/ethnic groups, but if that's how the game is played just leave us Irish guys the hell out of this one.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 82, posted (1 year 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6144 times:

Well said by Edmund Wright...

Quote:
Think of racial tensions as a wound on the nation, and the race agitation industry, the institution that gave us Obama, Sharpton, Jackson and Holder, is in the business of specifically pouring salt into the wound, and generally making sure it festers and never heals. Their efforts are then multiplied by butt-insky white liberals, who project their internal guilt by constantly picking at the scab as well. This scar heals just fine when ignored over time and people just go about their lives, but that dynamic is sort of inconvenient when your cash flow model or your political turn out model is dependent on a continuing flow of blood.

This is known by those who benefit, and there is not a single politician or professional race hustler who's life will be improved by acknowledging progress in this area. Without the grievance industry, figures like Sheila Jackson Lee, Emanuel Cleaver and John Lewis would be largely irrelevant government employees, representing safe liberal districts in Congress, and heard of by almost no one but their constituents. Human nature is a powerful force, and people tend to gravitate towards positions that enrich them. Beyond any doubt, it enriches and empowers certain elements to pretend that we are all Mississippi in 1950 now, so those elements exist in a bizarre media/political/community organizing sphere where is it still Mississippi in 1950.

The New York Times, the NBC family of networks, many black churches, Hollywood and Big Education, all are ironically part of the progressive universe and yet are stuck in this racial time warp. And this was unavoidable once Obama was elected. Obama in power was always destined to appoint grievance pimps like Van Jones and Eric Holder to positions of authority. That's who he is, and they are merely extensions of him. The grievance pimps live for only one thing: to finally get even with all the creepy ass crackas. And no, with due respect to Miss Jeantel and Rush Limbaugh, I'm not talking about gay cops, and neither are Obama and Holder. This is about reparations and getting even. So obsessed are they with this mission that an Hispanic Democrat who tutors black kids and votes for Obama will do for a cracka in a pinch. It goes way beyond that now, though.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/...s_the_new_nigga.html#ixzz2ZPSYQsGp


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 83, posted (1 year 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 80):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 80):
Now that you've trashed this kid..

He trashed himself. And he was not a kid..

You have kids, and your age..a 17yo is a kid.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 80):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 80):
What say you on your hero's Child Molesting Past? Please endorse at your leisure. Do you need pictures because her words aren't good enough?

We had already seen this. The mainstream media did everything they could to bring out his past while posting the same pic of the good little 12 year old Trayvon. And he is not my hero. Just that he is not guilty.

You're on about Martin so hard and backing the Child Molester so blindly .. you are indeed the sterling example of the power of racism at it's worse. Martin never you, never did anything to you and yet you are foaming at the mouth-mad at this kid because of young photos posted by the media. You have no idea what photos your kids or grand kids are posting on the internet or texting right this minute - but would have a cardiac if you did.

And yet, Zimmerman has assaulted a cop, a domestic abuse charge and a 13 year long Child Molestation charge by a relative aimed at him..and none of that bothers you. It's the black kid that has acting completely rabid.

Get help...stat!



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 84, posted (1 year 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 80):
He trashed himself.

Yes, because teenagers never do anything stupid, and any little thing they do should follow them for the rest of their lives.  

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (1 year 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
If he had been busted for the theft of the jewelery in his posession then he would never of been in Sanford. Had he not been expelled from school then he would not of been in Sanford.

His father lived there. That's not a good reason to be in Sanford?

Quoting slider (Reply 65):
In fact, any of these Gen X'ers or Millenials or whatever the hell they're called today have grown up in an age of affirmative action, quotas, a colorblind society that's been integrated for some time.

Many people, fortunately, are colorblind. Unfortunately, we don't have a colorblind society quite yet.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 68):
Trayvon was not a good and he was not a kid.

So you believe he was a bad person, period, end of story?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 68):
I never thought that either of their pasts should be brought into court. That it should of been judged on what happened when they came in contact. Period

Then why bring it up?

Quoting Mir (Reply 77):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 70):
But it relavant to Trayvons actions that night. Drugs, theft and punching a school bus driver all are relavant to what he was doing and did that night.

They're relevant to going to a convenience store and getting some iced tea and skittles? Let's not pretend that's even remotely true.

Exactly.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 80):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 80):
Now that you've trashed this kid..

He trashed himself. And he was not a kid..

He was not an adult. What would you call him?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 80):
a crazy racist

Is there any other kind?



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 86, posted (1 year 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6057 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 82):
Beyond any doubt, it enriches and empowers certain elements to pretend that we are all Mississippi in 1950 now, so those elements exist in a bizarre media/political/community organizing sphere where is it still Mississippi in 1950.
Quoting slider (Reply 82):
The New York Times, the NBC family of networks, many black churches, Hollywood and Big Education, all are ironically part of the progressive universe and yet are stuck in this racial time warp.
Quoting slider (Reply 82):
Well said by Edmund Wright...

And you and Edmund Wright are among the many who wants to escape the price of centuries Racism Inflicted Damage.

The strategy: Blame the very people who've been victims an make the the enemy for vocalizing being the victims of such.

You are thoroughly convinced like other staunch conservatives that racism has no price it must pay and if anyone who has been the victim has no right to speak of it, attack it or address it... is in fact someone who is exploiting it.

That's is the strategy of the ultimate cheat. Should the American Indian one day grab the national microphone and demand a full redressing of past wrongs, the minds like your will surely attack them in the same manner - they are race-baiters, hustlers and complainers. Your strategy is simple..run from all blame, erase the past and attack anyone who dares to bring it up.

You want know what troubles you... it is buying into errant racist viciousness built on the absconding of Responsibility and Reshaping Lies into a False Truth...at an extra-ordinary extreme. But as I said, it'll take you two life times to figure it out.

But I understand why you buy into it..after all there Japanese who deny the Rape Nanking, those of swarthy persuasions who are diehard Neo Nazis.. so given so many weak human minds.. it's easy to see the possibility of people who want others gone at any cost.

BN747

[Edited 2013-07-18 13:15:38]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5491 posts, RR: 28
Reply 87, posted (1 year 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6047 times:

Quoting cws818 (Reply 85):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 80):
a crazy racist

Is there any other kind?

Oh my, yes; many use racial animus in a carefully-calculated scheme to wield power or influence policy. One need only look at the means and methods used by such as David Duke or Al Sharpton; their methods may be egregiously offensive, disrespectful, steeped in racial animus, but they are hardly "crazy." "Coldly calculating" might be a better description.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 88, posted (1 year 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6045 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 87):

Oh my, yes; many use racial animus in a carefully-calculated scheme to wield power or influence policy. One need only look at the means and methods used by such as David Duke or Al Sharpton;

Again, the tactic of False Equivalency or your failure to really look at each with equal scrutiny.

David Duke - Mission: Maintain and expand the notion of White Supremacy. To establish as fact that Whites aren't to be blamed for past transgressions and it is the minorities fault.

Al Sharpton - Mission: To achieve a full Redress and Accounting of America's Racial Injustices and let none go unnoticed.


If you believe Racism is real, then you can not stop and leave it a that. As in ' I saw a cop treat a guy wrong.'

You must take the next step and recognize how it has been woven into being institutionalized..it's here where most people not affected negatively by racism stop and no further.

The final step of Addressing it at every turn is what those who take action against it do. It is here where conservatives get pissed, they don't like you if you talk about it. They don't like it (or you) for pointing it out or talking about it.

Count on them saying 'I'm tired of hearing about it'...

..and do you know why that is? It's because you're in full denial of it within yourself and you are worried about your own self preservation and status quo.

If speaking about or hearing anyone speak of racism bothers you...it is indeed you with the racism issue. plain and simple.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5491 posts, RR: 28
Reply 89, posted (1 year 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6024 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
Al Sharpton - Mission: To achieve a full Redress and Accounting of America's Racial Injustices and let none go unnoticed.

Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. There are many who are deeply skeptical of Mr. Sharpton's motives. Having observed his behavior at length, I find it very difficult to equate Mr. Sharpton with the many committed, visionary and genuinely-concerned soldiers in the war on racism.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
If you believe Racism is real, then you can not stop and leave it a that. As in ' I saw a cop treat a guy wrong.'

You must take the next step and recognize how it has been woven into being institutionalized..it's here where most people not affected negatively by racism stop and no further.

Agreed, without reservation. Drilling through many layers of historical and cultural practices, changing hearts and minds, is never trivial.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
The final step of Addressing it at every turn is what those who take action against it do. It is here where conservatives get pissed, they don't like you if you talk about it.

Not a given at all; I guess a lot depends upon whom you choose to paint with a brush "conservative"; there is no room in legitimate conservative doctrine for racism, because racist practices inevitably reduce the ability of all people affected to achieve in accordance with their greatest potential, a fundamental failure which harms each and all of us, in tangible and intangible ways.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):


If speaking about or hearing anyone speak of racism bothers you...it is indeed you with the racism issue. plain and simple.

If your intent here is to state that "one" who is disturbed by open, honest and frank sessions of racism is a person who has a racism issue, then I would have to agree with you with vigor. If, by using the word "you," your intent was to address me (as in, the guy behind the keyboard), I would take great offense and ask that you reconsider your choice of words. I trust such is not the case.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 90, posted (1 year 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6007 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 89):
If, by using the word "you," your intent was to address me (as in, the guy behind the keyboard), I would take great offense and ask that you reconsider your choice of words. I trust such is not the case.

That is not the case I am speaking directly to those who get completely twisted in knots when the conversation comes up...they know who they are.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 89):
There are many who are deeply skeptical of Mr. Sharpton's motives.

Aside from the atypical white racists followed by Coulter/O'Reilly/Limbaugh/Beck and their followers...who?

Quoting sccutler (Reply 89):
Having observed his behavior at length, I find it very difficult to equate Mr. Sharpton with the many committed, visionary and genuinely-concerned soldiers in the war on racism.

Twanna Brawley incident and what else have you observed?

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 91, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5944 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 83):
You have kids, and your age..a 17yo is a kid.

At 17 I had been working a full time job for two years already through high school and then joined the military and had finished boot camp and tech school before I turned 18. I was a young man making a living. Not a Kid...smoking dope, getting in fights and being caught with stolen jewelery. That is not what a "normal" teen does.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 83):
You're on about Martin so hard and backing the Child Molester so blindly

Have never "backed" Zimmerman. I believe he was not guilty of the charges against him and I believe he has been given the shaft by the media and leaders of the Democratic party. The media bias in this case has been beyond reprehensible and it is that portion that has continued to disgust me.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
Al Sharpton - Mission: To achieve a full Redress and Accounting of America's Racial Injustices and let none go unnoticed.

How much is Al worth? All he is worried about is keeping his face on the TV screen and making a buck for himself.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 85):
His father lived there. That's not a good reason to be in Sanford?

Being suspended from school was not a good reason to be staying at his dads in Sanford. Had he been in school he would still be alive today.

Quoting Mir (Reply 84):
Yes, because teenagers never do anything stupid, and any little thing they do should follow them for the rest of their lives

No, just that the media should not have continued with the good little boy in the 12 year old Hollister shirt pic. They should of painted both people involved in this incident evenly and equally.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 83):
And yet, Zimmerman has assaulted a cop, a domestic abuse charge and a 13 year long Child Molestation charge by a relative aimed at him..and none of that bothers you. It's the black kid that has acting completely rabid.

Get help...stat!

One again we know everything in the world about GZ already because the media has been up his ass with a microscope in order to continue with their race narraitive. Had they done the equal amount of work on TM then I would not be on this angle. And the media bias and the race angle taken on this from the very beginning has a lot to say about race and race relations in this country. Why do you continue to interject race into this? What color the person was has nothing to do with it.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 92, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5914 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
If you believe Racism is real, then you can not stop and leave it a that. As in ' I saw a cop treat a guy wrong.'

You must take the next step and recognize how it has been woven into being institutionalized..it's here where most people not affected negatively by racism stop and no further.

The final step of Addressing it at every turn is what those who take action against it do. It is here where conservatives get pissed, they don't like you if you talk about it. They don't like it (or you) for pointing it out or talking about it.

Count on them saying 'I'm tired of hearing about it'...

..and do you know why that is? It's because you're in full denial of it within yourself and you are worried about your own self preservation and status quo.

If speaking about or hearing anyone speak of racism bothers you...it is indeed you with the racism issue. plain and simple.

What people are tired of is the fact that an honest discussion of this issue cannot take place while one of the parties is assumed (solely due to their skin color, mind you) to bear a moral obligation to the other based on guilt, and who cannot address the portion of this problem that any particular individual or the 'African American community' as a whole owns without being labeled for it.

That is why in 2013 otherwise tolerant and supportive people of non-color like myself might feel that they've heard about enough on the topic of racism in the United States, especially from people like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.


User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8471 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5870 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
At 17 I had been working a full time job for two years already through high school and then joined the military and had finished boot camp and tech school before I turned 18. I was a young man making a living. Not a Kid...smoking dope, getting in fights and being caught with stolen jewelery. That is not what a "normal" teen does.

He was not a top kid but he should have not been dead by Zimmerman or any other neighborhood patrol people. Where is his life value? He should have called the police not chase him down.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
shaft by the media

And FOX News was bias free right, supporting Zimmerman.

We have a long ways to go to to repair racism and I know what side most of the racism is coming from.



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 94, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5835 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
Have never "backed" Zimmerman. I believe he was not guilty of the charges against him and I believe he has been given the shaft by the media and leaders of the Democratic party. The media bias in this case has been beyond reprehensible and it is that portion that has continued to disgust me.

I agree with the not guilty aspect (even though I disagree with GZ's actions, I just don't see them technically illegal) and yes the media bias is disgusting. It is sad to see people not acknowledge the bias but instead say "well FOX news was biased too" as if one wrong makes another wrong right.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
Not a Kid...smoking dope, getting in fights and being caught with stolen jewelery. That is not what a "normal" teen does.

Being a kid today is different than what it used to be. It seems like it takes longer to mature and to become self dependent, they've done studies on it. It took me all the way to 19 to be mostly independent and 22 to be completely dependent, and compared to a lot of my peers, that was somewhat fast. Call it right or wrong (my generation being a bit slower to assume full responsibility) that's just society today.

A kid smoking dope is not abnormal or bad. A kid getting in fights and stealing jewelry throws up some flags but overall, I don't think TM was a very bad kid/adult/whatever term you wanna use. His actions, immaturity, and shortfalls seem slightly below average but I don't think he's an egregious thug. I think it was right for the right/FOX to call out the bias against Zimmerman but then they dirtied their hands and did the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a right

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 93):
And FOX News was bias free right, supporting Zimmerman.

So? Was the bias against GZ right or wrong? Answer that, not with a "well FOX did this or that" answer. I don't know why people get mad at injustices against their side but totally ignore/write off injustices their side does



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 95, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5822 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):

At 17 I had been working a full time job for two years already through high school and then joined the military and had finished boot camp and tech school before I turned 18.

Oh, wait... mr. ideal kid, it ain't about you. And most kids these days aren't you..not even close. So extract measuring yourself up against anyone..especially a dead kid.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
Not a Kid...smoking dope, getting in fights and being caught with stolen jewelery. That is not what a "normal" teen does.

That's why you don't understand kids as it is.. they're always getting in to trouble, geek kids of course are the except..most of America's kids AREN'T geek kids, they're the typical bored easily manipulated types. He was quite normal and incredibly mild compared to me when I was his age.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 83):
You're on about Martin so hard and backing the Child Molester so blindly

Have never "backed" Zimmerman. I believe he was not guilty of the charges against him and I believe he has been given the shaft by the media and leaders of the Democratic party. The media bias in this case has been beyond reprehensible and it is that portion that has continued to disgust me.

And that's exactly what you're doing.

Did the Media scorch and destroy Charles Ramsey when he rescued Amanda Berry in Cleveland?

NO.


Why not?

Because he did something good, he showed what a member of worth his salt in a civilized society is supposed to do.

If all those on lookers instead of looking, had gone out and said 'Hey, what's going on out here?' you're hero who you are fighting for would have put away that gun in a heart beat!

Ramsey did good. Zimmerman did what no MAN should ever do..allow himself to get into an entanglement with a kid. and killed him.

A 6'3 kid is still a kid, I've seen plenty of loud mouth sh!t talking high school kids I'd like to crack up side the skull..but then I remember, I did that too. As a ground mature adult, you step back and let them be kids. Even if they're not the kind you like.

And you attacking this kid with viciousness that you have.. you should be ashamed of yourself.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
Al Sharpton - Mission: To achieve a full Redress and Accounting of America's Racial Injustices and let none go unnoticed.

How much is Al worth? All he is worried about is keeping his face on the TV screen and making a buck for himself.

And I'll wager you ANYTHING he partakes in more benevolence with his windfalls than Coulter, Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, Ingraham and Palin combined.

But let his black skin stand in the way of you seeing that.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
Quoting cws818 (Reply 85):
His father lived there. That's not a good reason to be in Sanford?

Being suspended from school was not a good reason to be staying at his dads in Sanford. Had he been in school he would still be alive today.

Had Zimmerman been a semi-responsible adult, he'd be alive today. Are your kids perfect? NO! So get off the throne.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 91):
Had they done the equal amount of work on TM then I would not be on this angle.

Go ahead, name other cases where you attacked the dead victim with such vile disgust as you're going here... you really have lost your way.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 92):

What people are tired of is the fact that an honest discussion of this issue cannot take place while one of the parties is assumed (solely due to their skin color, mind you) to bear a moral obligation to the other based on guilt, and who cannot address the portion of this problem that any particular individual or the 'African American community' as a whole owns without being labeled for it.

You can if you think about it. The Guilt you speak of is handled very well by those able to see it for is. Who handles it worse? The liars and deniers who just can't seem to face facts because too busy avoiding and unable to face historic truths.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 92):
That is why in 2013 otherwise tolerant and supportive people of non-color like myself might feel that they've heard about enough on the topic of racism in the United States, especially from people like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.

Black History and the Black Experience is a moon and Jackson/Sharpton is a pebble in size in all there is to learn..and a mind is too small to grasp that concept in understanding .. it's mind that cannot be help and one that just rather take the lazy way in the first place. .. which is where most conservatives thrive, I've yet to me one - here or anywhere knows anything substantial about the race that cannot stand. Oh, they're great at quoting crime stats (but ask them to quote their own crime stats..they can't). That's your impediment to learning anything..it's all on you. No one else. You choose to stop at Jackson/Sharpton... you were never in it in the 1st place because if you were..you'd know better - and a helluva lot more.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8471 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5817 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 94):
So? Was the bias against GZ right or wrong? Answer that, not with a "well FOX did this or that" answer. I don't know why people get mad at injustices against their side but totally ignore/write off injustices their side does

Speaking from the perspective that Zimmerman was given the shaft from the media meaning from his perspective of the MSM, the FOX News people where siding with Zimmerman and bias against Martin, c'mon you know that. Was the bias against GZ right, you answer that?



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 97, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5813 times:

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 96):
Speaking from the perspective that Zimmerman was given the shaft from the media meaning from his perspective of the MSM, the FOX News people where siding with Zimmerman and bias against Martin, c'mon you know that. Was the bias against GZ right, you answer that?

I don't understand what you are saying. But no, the bias against GZ was bad and the bias against TM was bad. It's also bad that some of the same people that get mad when anti-GZ comments come up (like crimes he did in the past) partake in mentioning all the stuff TM did



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 98, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):
But then why is our president who is 1/2 white and 1/2 kenyan called a African-American?

Genetically, African-Americans are a mix of people extracted from the western and central coast of Africa and brought here as slaves. That is a different ethnicity than a Yoruba (I think he's Yoruba) from Nigeria. Most of the Nigerians I know in the US (and that's -oddly- a decently large number) don't consider themselves African-American, they consider themselves Nigerian or of Nigerian descent. Which brings me to a point:

I think that white people are going to have to stand up and really look for the "hidden racism." People will walk right past a beating, so I think that some admission that we are guilty and that we need to really fight it is going to help. We're also going to have to invest in the ghettos, improving schools and healthcare and providing family planning services.

But there are some things the African-American community can do, too. One reason why people associate the African-American community (and hence race) with crime is because the community so often glorifies gang and ghetto culture. There are African-Americans who have suffered much less discrimination and enjoyed a lot of success. Bill Cosby, Condoleeza Rice, Eric Holder, Jocelyn Elders, Barack Obama, Colin Powell. They dress well, speak in a standard American accent, and carry themselves proudly. But it seems to me that a lot of the African-American community is more interested in emulating Jay-Z, Snoop Dogg, and sports stars. They wear absurd clothing (I'm sorry, but the belt is meant to go somewhere between the hips and the waist), speak in slang so thick as to be unintelligible to native English speakers, and swagger rather than walking. Maybe if the African-American community altered its culture to emulate the first group, the discrimination would get better. I'm sorry, but ghetto/gang culture is not about skin color.

Just my very candid take on this.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 99, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5807 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 98):
speak in a standard American accent

I used to think it was just broken English they spoke, but I was surprised to find out that it's a very distinct dialect with actual rules (in other words, it's not that they just fail at speaking English in random different ways, they speak a different dialect.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAVE

Now I'm not going as far as to say that Americans should be fluent in both English and AAVE, but we should at least recognize this problem. Black kids may grow up learning AAVE in that critical phase of language learning and be at a disadvantage their entire school career (and even beyond) not because they are lazy and don't take school seriously but because of the same reason most ESOL kids have difficulty in English (no I'm not saying black people know English as a second language, I'm just trying to draw a connection between learning something as a kid and something else in school.)

I don't know what the solution should be, but it's something that most people don't recognize. I know you were going in a different direction with that, talking about how rappers may be bad role models, which I agree with, but your post reminded me of AAVE

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 98):
We're also going to have to invest in the ghettos, improving schools and healthcare and providing family planning services.

I like this idea a lot. It annoys me greatly when I hear about white injustices and all and that I should own up to it... I agree there has been a great deal of it and minorities are at a disadvantage, but it goes too far sometimes. A lot more younger people are growing up without racism or with very little (a stereotype here or there) and while we acknowledge the past, that wasn't us. We'd love to move forward but sometimes it feels like we're being dragged back to the past (before we were even born.)

IDK, that is just my point of view, don't take it as me denying history or underplaying racism or whatever. It feels like I've been dropped into a fight I didn't start and when I try to move forward, you have the angry old timers trying to make me feel guilty and say how wrong and hiddenly racist I am. Of course, I can't deny that there are plenty of angry old timers that are indeed racist...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 100, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5791 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 95):
You can if you think about it. The Guilt you speak of is handled very well by those able to see it for is. Who handles it worse? The liars and deniers who just can't seem to face facts because too busy avoiding and unable to face historic truths.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 95):
Black History and the Black Experience is a moon and Jackson/Sharpton is a pebble in size in all there is to learn..and a mind is too small to grasp that concept in understanding .. it's mind that cannot be help and one that just rather take the lazy way in the first place. .. which is where most conservatives thrive, I've yet to me one - here or anywhere knows anything substantial about the race that cannot stand. Oh, they're great at quoting crime stats (but ask them to quote their own crime stats..they can't). That's your impediment to learning anything..it's all on you. No one else. You choose to stop at Jackson/Sharpton... you were never in it in the 1st place because if you were..you'd know better - and a helluva lot more.


Sorry man but I'm not going to take a college course in why the black community can't get their act together. Jackson and Sharpton are the ones who are poking me in the eye on television so I mentioned them here.

The rest of your sermon is a perfect example of why normal people have grown weary toward this obsession with "the Black Experience". You continue to assign blame for and assume obligations based on things that we did not do.

Until you accept that fact you will never be able to get with the program. Your call, I win either way.

[Edited 2013-07-19 21:16:21]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 101, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5767 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 99):
I used to think it was just broken English they spoke, but I was surprised to find out that it's a very distinct dialect with actual rules (in other words, it's not that they just fail at speaking English in random different ways, they speak a different dialect.)

Yes. It is a patois of sorts.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 102, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5722 times:

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 93):
He was not a top kid but he should have not been dead by Zimmerman or any other neighborhood patrol people.

No he did not deserve to die but he was on top of Zimmerman and we all know the result's.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 93):
Where is his life value?

Once again you are assuming that TM was innocent in all of this. If GZ story is true then he caused his own demise.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 93):
He should have called the police not chase him down.

You are correct TM should of called the police instead of going back abd chasing GZ down. But I do not think that was the way he rolled.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 103, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5684 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 102):
ou are correct TM should of called the police instead of going back abd chasing GZ down. But I do not think that was the way he rolled.

You don't know Martin went back and chased down Zimmerman. Listen to the reenactment, which obviously paint Zimmerman in the best possible light, and it is clear that Martin asked Zimmerman what his problem is. To that Zimmerman said he played coy and reached for his phone. Of course this can look very similar to reaching for a weapon.

Based on this, remember this is Zimmerman's version, why didn't Zimmerman identify himself as neighborhood watch? Based on how you have said Martin should have reacted Zimmerman certainly should have done this instead of a threatening move.

But you guys like to only look at it from the vigilantes point of view, with the extra advantage of hindsight. Damn facts when they don't fit you and accept everything when they do.

Undisputable facts of the case is that Zimmerman instigated everything by following Martin. I agree with the jury that the evidence wasn't enough to convict him of the charges they were presented but, as they have indicated, he is the one who caused it and if they had lesser charges to consider they would have convicted him. So much for your constant claim that it is legal to follow someone. But such is the mind of the blind gun owner. Everything he or one of his peers is always right. Because if it wasn't they just may have to start acting responsibly.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 104, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5686 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 98):
But there are some things the African-American community can do, too. One reason why people associate the African-American community (and hence race) with crime is because the community so often glorifies gang and ghetto culture. There are African-Americans who have suffered much less discrimination and enjoyed a lot of success. Bill Cosby, Condoleeza Rice, Eric Holder, Jocelyn Elders, Barack Obama, Colin Powell. They dress well, speak in a standard American accent, and carry themselves proudly. But it seems to me that a lot of the African-American community is more interested in emulating Jay-Z, Snoop Dogg, and sports stars. They wear absurd clothing (I'm sorry, but the belt is meant to go somewhere between the hips and the waist), speak in slang so thick as to be unintelligible to native English speakers, and swagger rather than walking. Maybe if the African-American community altered its culture to emulate the first group, the discrimination would get better. I'm sorry, but ghetto/gang culture is not about skin color.

Wow..I'm stunned at how DeltaMD90 has a better grasp of this particular area than you do. And I'm even more stunned that this is the best way for you to express this path of improvement.

I'm stunned because as a gay man, you've exhibited some deeper average understanding of the minorities may experience by your own witnessed incidents. Combined with your own gay/straight experiences and observations I would think you know better to say what is written above.

It is usually the most polite racist/conservatives that say ' There are some good ones, the ones who speak right' or as George Zimmerman's cousin who accuses him of raping her for 13 years also went on record of saying 'George's parents taught him that only the Blacks who act white are acceptable'... you basically just said the exact same thing. "He's one of the good ones.." have you have heard that before and are you aware of how offensive that is? I honestly don't think that you. And for your own sake do not ever say that around someone black or any minority because they will take offense - they may not say anything, they may even say or agree with you - but it is a comment that will stew and fester as to make them see that you discounting their relatives and friends you do not know..it plants the seed of a degree of contempt that will only grown when any reminders pop up.

After the Blacks agree to speak white, dress white and become Clarence Thomas clones, is the next step to get the Latinos to stop saying 'ese, guey, vato and carnal' and speak more white , get them to stop getting tatts all over their bodies and ditch all gang related perceptions to also 'be more white' and not spanglish, And then Asians...

Perhaps Gays need to act more like straight people, I lot straight people hate flamboyant flashy flaming gays and want them to be more 'normal'. How boring would that be.. it is the flamboyant flaming gays that make the Super Bowl halftime shows spectacular, the makes the best movie and set designs soar, they make and put the best face imaginable on things that reflect life at it's best. Why ask them to be something other than they are 'just to make normal people feel more accepting?

Blacks have an their antics have made popular music what it is today from the days of Chuck Berry to Marvin Gaye to the Jackson Five to the top artist of the day where you like them or not. They've made sports, the NFL and NBA the stunning performances they are today because of where the come from, where they come from and what they are is what gives that extra flair that separates everything from normal boring stale standard of the Lawrence Welk America.

Watch Malcolm X.. there's s seen where one character says 'No matter how you do your hair, how you dress or how you speak like them..they still look at you and see that you're black and they will never let you for get it,

Racism is far too toxic to believe some outer coating changes will make it disappear.

In the recent Lincoln film, one line that states it (racism) best is between two politicos are discussing who to target for a vote change - one name comes up and one guy states " Oh no, not him ever, he hates niggers, he hates God even more for making niggers..." imagine that kind of hate on a people mired in the most unfortunate of circumstances. That's kind of mind that led to the killing and euthanasia of the deformed during the height of the pre-Hitler Eugenics craze.


Blacks at the turn of 1900 despised prominent black Booker T. Washington for the very notion that you suggest 'act like them'.. it certainly will not be well received 113 years later because when it was actually tried... Rosewood is what happened.

If you haven't noticed, advancing America is way ahead of you on that point, they are absorbing gay culture, they are and haven been absorbing black culture as well as many things Latin.

What you've said here is no different than white males in the work place demanding women 'act more like them' ..then when the women do (cut throat business tactics, etc) the men really turn on them and hate them even more. Men have no right to define and demand the change and conduct of women - even in a world they created.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 98):
I think that white people are going to have to stand up and really look for the "hidden racism."

MLK coined this 50 years ago, he termed it unconscionable racism, society signaled it to you via commercials and day-to-day innocuous visuals that subliminally attached themselves to one's psyche, the additional input from racist family members, peers, associates etc..solidifies this thought process. And it has affected most of us.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 99):

Now I'm not going as far as to say that Americans should be fluent in both English and AAVE,

Good on you.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 99):
but we should at least recognize this problem. Black kids may grow up learning AAVE in that critical phase of language learning and be at a disadvantage their entire school career (and even beyond) not because they are lazy and don't take school seriously

Well said.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 99):
(no I'm not saying black people know English as a second language, I'm just trying to draw a connection between learning something as a kid and something else in school.)

Which many do but unfortunately it's not for everyone, because some or many people will not allow you that chance no matter how you speak of present yourself - look at the viciousness shown 19yo Rachel Jeantel, just on her appearance the worst among (and believe me this type of person has been on the receiving end of nastiness from a very young age) us just will not leave some people in peace.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 99):

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 98):
We're also going to have to invest in the ghettos, improving schools and healthcare and providing family planning services.

I like this idea a lot. It annoys me greatly when I hear about white injustices and all and that I should own up to it... I agree there has been a great deal of it and minorities are at a disadvantage, but it goes too far sometimes. A lot more younger people are growing up without racism or with very little (a stereotype here or there) and while we acknowledge the past, that wasn't us. We'd love to move forward but sometimes it feels like we're being dragged back to the past (before we were even born.)

Al thought investment is needed, education access is foremost - this what Affirmative Action is all about. But not in inner city black communities, also in white trailer parks and hillbilly territory, these places are prime pickings for people to exploit into crime and used like pawns. But in Black Community, they have to set the terms and how it is to be executed - it is being done in many places... it just hasn't expanded to all areas, it's a lot like trying to tackle an ocean wave. And yes there is profit on misery.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 100):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 95):
You can if you think about it. The Guilt you speak of is handled very well by those able to see it for is. Who handles it worse? The liars and deniers who just can't seem to face facts because too busy avoiding and unable to face historic truths.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 95):
Black History and the Black Experience is a moon and Jackson/Sharpton is a pebble in size in all there is to learn..and a mind is too small to grasp that concept in understanding .. it's mind that cannot be help and one that just rather take the lazy way in the first place. .. which is where most conservatives thrive, I've yet to me one - here or anywhere knows anything substantial about the race that cannot stand. Oh, they're great at quoting crime stats (but ask them to quote their own crime stats..they can't). That's your impediment to learning anything..it's all on you. No one else. You choose to stop at Jackson/Sharpton... you were never in it in the 1st place because if you were..you'd know better - and a helluva lot more.


Sorry man but I'm not going to take a college course in why the black community can't get their act together.

And I can't offer an answer to someone too far over the racist cliff to grasp a simple point. If remaining intellectually lazy as it appears..that's on you. I've yet to mean anyone who needs college to use their brain.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 100):
Jackson and Sharpton are the ones who are poking me in the eye on television so I mentioned them here.

Yeah, whatever..it's just the easy racist reach..you're only fooling you here.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 100):
The rest of your sermon is a perfect example of why normal people have grown weary toward this obsession with "the Black Experience"

Sorry, but what you're putting on display.. must mean 'normal racists'..because no normal people are that far gone from what I'm seeing from you.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 100):
You continue to assign blame for and assume obligations based on things that we did not do.

Until you accept that fact you will never be able to get with the program. Your call, I win either way.

Me personally? I'm way ahead of program you can imagine. What you think you've won or are winning...whatever it is, it can't be much worth a can of spoiled beans.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 102):
If GZ story is true then he caused his own demise.

He's confirmed liar. Name one confirmed liar (not a politician) that you believe anything that comes from their mouths.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 102):
TM should of called the police instead of going back abd chasing GZ down. But I do not think that was the way he rolled.

And again, you choose to believe the liar..so that's that.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3355 posts, RR: 9
Reply 105, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5680 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
As far as stand your ground? I don't know enough about it..But in my state of Mississippi if you are even stealing something out of my garage I can shoot to kill. Is it right?

What your are describing is the "Castle Doctrine" which allows you to shoot to kill when your home is being invaded and you have no duty to retreat. Most people understand this premise and are fine with it although if you ever had to kill someone you probably still would have to answer some questions and your house would be treated as a crime scene.

Stand your ground expands on this to say that you have no duty to retreat in a public place.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
And just what is that? ... This is my problem with liberals Chicago has strict gun control and has more gun violence than almost anywhere in the country. Criminals will get guns no doubt about it. All gun laws do is take it away from law abiding citizens.

Yes they can, but gun legislation is not stopping you from getting a gun it is doing everything possible to make sure they don't get in the wrong hands. What the goal is from background checks and closing the gun show loophole is ensuring that sellers private or a dealer do their due diligence on the buyer. This could be done without a registry as well many different ways, look at how the Swiss do it and copy them.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 53):
Quoting stratosphere (Reply 30):
But in another case where the black women who shot over her abusive husbands head got 20 years was bullshit too. I am for fair justice but that was far from fair I would go to bat for that women this is where blacks actually have a case on my opinion. I know justice is skewed against them. I don't know what the answer is.

It's hard to see these two cases at the same time and not see how biased the system is. It really drives the point home. One group of people almost always gets the benefit of the doubt, another almost always does not.

Agreed, and I think she is going to get pardoned or the case will be appealed and result in an acquittal.

Quoting slider (Reply 52):
Farrakhan gets a mic shoved under his piehole to yammer on UNCHECKED about how whity blew up the levee...

Alex Jones gets on the radio and tells his listeners that Aurora and Sandy Hook were government conspiracies to take our guns. There are crazies of all skin colours, I hope you can be consistent on identifying them.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 95):
A 6'3 kid is still a kid, I've seen plenty of loud mouth sh!t talking high school kids I'd like to crack up side the skull..but then I remember, I did that too. As a ground mature adult, you step back and let them be kids. Even if they're not the kind you like.

I'm sure that some of those teenagers you want to crack on the side of the skull could kick your @$$ if they wanted to.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 102):
Once again you are assuming that TM was innocent in all of this. If GZ story is true then he caused his own demise.

Perhaps but it sets a precedent now for blacks (especially males) and I understand their anger.

If GZ's claim of TM walking to slowly made him suspicious I'm pretty certain him running would have arose suspicion as well, probably more so. So what does a black parent tell their children on how to conduct themselves to avoid being hassled?

Futhermore (and this just doesn't apply to blacks) in 22 states someone could pick a fight with you (reasons irrelevant) and if you fight back, get the upper hand on the person who started the fight they can shoot you and perhaps even escape a trial.

Anyone please correct me if the above statement is legally not correct but assuming it is stand your ground is open for a lot of abuse.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 106, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5640 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 105):
Quoting slider (Reply 52):
Farrakhan gets a mic shoved under his piehole to yammer on UNCHECKED about how whity blew up the levee...

Alex Jones gets on the radio and tells his listeners that Aurora and Sandy Hook were government conspiracies to take our guns. There are crazies of all skin colours, I hope you can be consistent on identifying them.

These guys don't see that, the only see one side causing problems.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 105):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 95):
A 6'3 kid is still a kid, I've seen plenty of loud mouth sh!t talking high school kids I'd like to crack up side the skull..but then I remember, I did that too. As a ground mature adult, you step back and let them be kids. Even if they're not the kind you like.

I'm sure that some of those teenagers you want to crack on the side of the skull could kick your @$$ if they wanted to.

...and you'd lose your cash faster than a losing lottery ticket. Particularly not knowing a thing about my fighting skills or that my physique is better than many men half my age.

You make it seems I'm attacking young guys in general .. when I'm speaking about gangs or clusters of false tough guys shouting obscenities to impress nearby girls or the girls with them. I know what that's all about. It's false bravado..that disappears as their numbers dwindle or someone bigger get's near them. When I was 'one of those kids - I reacted the same way...you tone it down because you didn't want that bigger older guy to think you were talking smack to/about him..he'd certainly embarrass you in front of your girlfriend or pals. Now when I walk by such a bunch.. I get 'hey man, wassup'.. - to be clear the only thing that ticks me off about their loud false bravado .. is when they do it in the presence of older people or women who do scare pretty easy. ..and that's exactly who they try to impress or intimidate.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
.But in my state of Mississippi

Boy, I missed that..now that explains a lot. No racial solutions of any kind coming out of that state...never has. Parchman anyone?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 105):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 102):
Once again you are assuming that TM was innocent in all of this. If GZ story is true then he caused his own demise.

Perhaps but it sets a precedent now for blacks (especially males) and I understand their anger.

Bill Maher essentially said the same thing last night..."how do they put up with it? I'd be one of the bad black guys if were me.."

...given all the marches today (and this week) ..it just means the next 'Zimmerman situation or White Cop kills unarmed Black male.... we may not be so lucky.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offline3DoorsDown From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5635 times:

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The entire thing was hijacked by the race business, including the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman “white Hispanic” by CNN (whatever the hell that means).

For our president CNN should start using "white black" or "European-American African-American" for the PC freaks. Since CNN would say it I am sure no one would find it offensive in the least.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 108, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5622 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Wow..I'm stunned at how DeltaMD90 has a better grasp of this particular area than you do. And I'm even more stunned that this is the best way for you to express this path of improvement.

No, I work in underserved communities. I have ever since I finished medical school. I see way too many low-riding pants, I see too many kids glorifying rap stars and sports stars and not role models that went to college, got jobs, and lived the American dream.

I see it every day.

It's not just African Americans by any means. But here's a secret: Eminem's been messed up by the cops, too.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
After the Blacks agree to speak white, dress white

How, enlightening. Here I thought race was just a skin color. I didn't think that it affected one's speech or dress. But what if you say is true, that these chosen behaviors are somehow inherently racial, then by all means, we need to discriminate by race. After all, we can't expect those Black people to go to college, speak clearly, and dress well, can we? Those are "white" behaviors. You just said so. So we'd better pass laws to protect them from themselves.

I submit that I am much less racist than you are. There is no "Black" accent. There is a ghetto accent. There is no "Black" dress. There is ghetto/gang dress. And I find it distressing that you have the two confused.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Perhaps Gays need to act more like straight people, I lot straight people hate flamboyant flashy flaming gays and want them to be more 'normal'

Oddly, when we started doing that, and asking to be permitted to do that, we suddenly won public opinion and homophobia became unpopular. Dancing naked in the streets didn't change minds and hearts. Emphasizing that we wanted to make the same commitments that straight people do is what brought that change.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 109, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5580 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
And I can't offer an answer to someone too far over the racist cliff to grasp a simple point. If remaining intellectually lazy as it appears..that's on you. I've yet to mean anyone who needs college to use their brain.

Ah, yes the labeling that I predicted would occur when I attempted to turn the conversation back to individuals taking ownership of their problems.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Sorry, but what you're putting on display.. must mean 'normal racists'..because no normal people are that far gone from what I'm seeing from you

I think you are too accustomed to others giving up after a couple of attempts to have a 2-way discussion with you, which is impossible because you are too busy talking to yourself to hear anyone else. I am also about to give up, which should not be construed as agreement or defeat although that is how you will probably perceive it.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
After the Blacks agree to speak white, dress white and become Clarence Thomas clones, is the next step to get the Latinos to stop saying 'ese, guey, vato and carnal' and speak more white , get them to stop getting tatts all over their bodies and ditch all gang related perceptions to also 'be more white' and not spanglish, And then Asians...

Perhaps Gays need to act more like straight people, I lot straight people hate flamboyant flashy flaming gays and want them to be more 'normal'. How boring would that be.. it is the flamboyant flaming gays that make the Super Bowl halftime shows spectacular, the makes the best movie and set designs soar, they make and put the best face imaginable on things that reflect life at it's best. Why ask them to be something other than they are 'just to make normal people feel more accepting?

Here's the point of this that you're missing.

Across the animal kingdom, any individual who wants to be a winner (for lack of a more precise word) - within the 'pack', in mating, at work, in sports etc. - emulates the look and behavior of other winners. For right or wrong the mainstream culture (that you call 'white') is by definition that of the winners and anyone who wants his/her slice of the pie would be well advised to pay attention and emulate it. Make your bones, pay your dues and then you can show your 'individuality'. This is the game that white people play (we don't necessarily like it either), I'm not sure why you think some people should be immune to how this works. So yes, if dressing presentably (pull those pants up), speaking so that someone can tell what the hell you are saying, doing what your boss tells you to do are "being white" then so be it. But that's life.

The problem that blacks and hispanics have that gays don't is that the 'cultural' features that they display mirror dysfunctional and/or criminal behavior in their communities that rightly concerns others. Whether they are actually dysfunctional / criminal individuals or not. Flamboyant gays might upset the fundies but don't make people wonder whether or not they are going to get mugged.

And in terms of rhetoric, if I were you I'd steer clear of race/gender comparisons given the marvelous record that the black community has regarding how men treat women.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 108):
How, enlightening. Here I thought race was just a skin color. I didn't think that it affected one's speech or dress. But what if you say is true, that these chosen behaviors are somehow inherently racial, then by all means, we need to discriminate by race. After all, we can't expect those Black people to go to college, speak clearly, and dress well, can we? Those are "white" behaviors. You just said so. So we'd better pass laws to protect them from themselves.

I submit that I am much less racist than you are. There is no "Black" accent. There is a ghetto accent. There is no "Black" dress. There is ghetto/gang dress. And I find it distressing that you have the two confused.

You've hit the nail on the head, Doc. It's not about color, it's about culture. And we've got to get to a place where we can point out where some aspect of a culture is broken (ie self defeating) so that it can improve. Unfortunately we can't do that in 2013 without charges of ignorance and racism.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 106):
...given all the marches today (and this week) ..it just means the next 'Zimmerman situation or White Cop kills unarmed Black male.... we may not be so lucky.

Is that a threat? Good luck taking on the other 85% of the US population, most of whom have been politely keeping their mouths shut and going to work while you bang your trash can lids in the street. I wouldn't count on that status quo if it gets violent.

But I suppose people will just be content with burning down their own neighborhoods like they did last time.

*************************
Frankly, I have nothing against black people...I just want to be left alone. What I don't like is you, or more accurately the politics that you represent, that are ultimately destructive to those you claim to be fighting for. You've got far more confidence that is warranted in your own understanding of the situation. Your script is so well developed but none of it includes the individuals who have the most to gain taking ownership of the aspects of this issue that they can control. Instead you choose to focus on blaming the past and by extension me (shifting the focus from past to present or back again to suit your argument) and I reject that. Those of us who value and have personally implemented the concept of individual responsibility see your diatribe for what it is and respond negatively.

Trayvon Martin's death really is sad, but George Zimmerman is not "yet another example" of how the prevailing US culture or people who are lighter skinned than you are the reason for all of your problems. George Z was an asshole, may have been a racist profiler, and this incident raises fair questions about guns - but it absolutely took two to tango that night, something that no one is talking about at the "Justice for Trayvon" rallies. If the entering argument is that it is OK for black kids to physically assault someone who is hassling them (especially if they are white) because of the injustices of history or current inequalities of the system, then the black community has got a lot more pain coming. That is what is really sad.

So I'll let you have whatever last word you want, I've said enough on this topic.

[Edited 2013-07-21 06:55:35]

User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 110, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5531 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 108):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Wow..I'm stunned at how DeltaMD90 has a better grasp of this particular area than you do. And I'm even more stunned that this is the best way for you to express this path of improvement.

No, I work in underserved communities. I have ever since I finished medical school. I see way too many low-riding pants, I see too many kids glorifying rap stars and sports stars and not role models that went to college, got jobs, and lived the American dream.

Dude, wake up.. the American Dream is dead. Just ask any group of pilots who've lost lifelong pensions thru no fault of their own. The societal end game or goal that most strive for is no longer clear as it once was and young people see that much clearer than you do.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 108):

I see it every day.

It's not just African Americans by any means. But here's a secret: Eminem's been messed up by the cops, too.



I'm not sure what it is you think you see... but Eminem getting messed up? - what exactly does that even up?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 108):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
After the Blacks agree to speak white, dress white

How, enlightening. Here I thought race was just a skin color. I didn't think that it affected one's speech or dress. But what if you say is true, that these chosen behaviors are somehow inherently racial, then by all means, we need to discriminate by race. After all, we can't expect those Black people to go to college, speak clearly, and dress well, can we? Those are "white" behaviors. You just said so. So we'd better pass laws to protect them from themselves.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 108):

I submit that I am much less racist than you are. There is no "Black" accent. There is a ghetto accent. There is no "Black" dress. There is ghetto/gang dress. And I find it distressing that you have the two confused

I submit that your ride-along experience with your swarthy friend taught you nothing but a superficial lesson, you're clearly in need of 'wash n repeat' until you do. I submit that one experience or observation isn't going to cut it and your limited perspective on the issue which has you judging people on speaking, dress issues lands you squarely next Rush Limbaugh when it comes to race. Look at the two if you.. you with all the associations vs him with zero..and yet the both of you to clueless to catch on it is a nothing but a phase that as these people grow older they grow out of it.

When MLK said that even well meaning liberal whites were unconscienable racist..you are that sterling example and completely unaware of it. If you're going to level the charge at me.. substantiate the charge.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 108):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Perhaps Gays need to act more like straight people, I lot straight people hate flamboyant flashy flaming gays and want them to be more 'normal'

Oddly, when we started doing that, and asking to be permitted to do that, we suddenly won public opinion and homophobia became unpopular. Dancing naked in the streets didn't change minds and hearts. Emphasizing that we wanted to make the same commitments that straight people do is what brought that change.

I'm certain that your bruised ego has you thinking that you speak for all but historical fact points out that you speak for only yourself, I know very militant gays here who'd rotisserie you for suggesting that that's what they did and that dreamland accounting is what got things where they are today. And from the outside looking in...it is the 'militant in your face' gays (Stonewall to ACT UP) that made America take notice that these people are not going anywhere and that their problems were real and they were present now and had always been in ALL families. They had always been different and their unique difference is what made them outcast and socially unacceptable. It took their brave actions to make 'Modern Family's' "we're just like you" possible... not the other way around. And it was the other side that came to a realization that - that difference had to be acknowledged and recognized as being just as normal as 'the normal' was... it wasn't the selling of 'we're trying to be just like like you' that's the most sell out self-defeating losing tactic in any confrontation. Standing back and looking it from afar .. the 'normal people (status quo)' are the ones doing all the adjusting and getting used to 'it' (whatever it is). And it is they who needed the adjustments because they had some very bad and poor misjudgements of their fellow human beings and family members!

That pattern is nothing more than a repeat of militant Blacks of 60's that powered the Civil Rights movement from a passive approach to an aggressive seize your right to represent yourself in the arena of political power leaving behind slower lunch counter movement.

Nice try and in a dream world it worked the way you wish..but in reality it certainly did not.. it was hard fought battle.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
And I can't offer an answer to someone too far over the racist cliff to grasp a simple point. If remaining intellectually lazy as it appears..that's on you. I've yet to mean anyone who needs college to use their brain.

Ah, yes the labeling that I predicted would occur when I attempted to turn the conversation back to individuals taking ownership of their problems.

If you play the role...then so be it, Mr. It's all Jesse & Al.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Sorry, but what you're putting on display.. must mean 'normal racists'..because no normal people are that far gone from what I'm seeing from you

I think you are too accustomed to others giving up after a couple of attempts to have a 2-way discussion with you, which is impossible because you are too busy talking to yourself to hear anyone else. I am also about to give up, which should not be construed as agreement or defeat although that is how you will probably perceive it.

score shmore... a two-way only occurs when the other party has input instead of tossing out meaningless pongs as you've been doing and by entertaining that .. it prompted you to step up your game and show yourself as you did here.

..and it was worth it.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Here's the point of this that you're missing.

Across the animal kingdom, any individual who wants to be a winner (for lack of a more precise word) - within the 'pack', in mating, at work, in sports etc. - emulates the look and behavior of other winners. For right or wrong the mainstream culture (that you call 'white') is by definition that of the winners and anyone who wants his/her slice of the pie would be well advised to pay attention and emulate it. Make your bones, pay your dues and then you can show your 'individuality'.

The Animal Kingdom guidebook may have worked well for the Neanderthals, but certainly doesn't fly well today...Wall Street maybe. But in mainstream society, society itself has long ago come to realize that brute force unchecked would the place looking like a bull in a China Glass shop. Society implemented rules and regulations that take in account meathead tactics that bulldoze the smarter and less brawny types also co-exisiting in 'the animal kingdom'... it is precisely the difference in how our world functions versus what's on the National Geographic Channel. We now make accommodations fro pregnant leave, sick leave for surgery or other personal issues...the Animal Kingdom has no such allowances.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
This is the game that white people play (we don't necessarily like it either).

Where on Earth do you live and in what Century?

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
. So yes, if dressing presentably (pull those pants up), speaking so that someone can tell what the hell you are saying, doing what your boss tells you to do are "being white" then so be it. But that's life.

I don't think a guy with his pants hanging across his ass and swaggering as he struts in and speaking street slang is going to be all that distraught he didn't get the job...I doubt if he'll actually show up and apply. Do you see that often in your animal kingdom office?

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
The problem that blacks and hispanics have that gays don't is that the 'cultural' features that they display mirror dysfunctional and/or criminal behavior in their communities that rightly concerns others.

Oh know, but when the gay guy shows up in bright red, blues or pink tops .. which rule in the Animal Kingdom cultural guide says ridicule him and beat him up for looking different? Kinda the same BS isn't it? Stop scaring yourself with racist imagery that only exist in your mind.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Whether they are actually dysfunctional / criminal individuals or not. Flamboyant gays might upset the fundies but don't make people wonder whether or not they are going to get mugged.

There's fear again...because of the way a guy dresses. How many cases of gay guys gettin' beaten because 'I thought he was hittin' on me?' And how many ill-dressed Black/Latino guys have robbed you? Let me guess... ZERO. Wait let me guess, they knew you had a hidden gun. Please dude,...stop letting clothes scare you...grow up.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
And in terms of rhetoric, if I were you I'd steer clear of race/gender comparisons given the marvelous record that the black community has regarding how men treat women.

Perhaps you should place the stereotypes (again) on pause and look at the long storied history white male abuse on women or listen to your heroed Republicans across the country as you type and read. Texas Legislature anyone? h, you're going on about a physical row, as if black are the only ones who beat their women, then I suggest you visit a womens shelter and observe. Black also have a better record of sending their family members out 'to even the score' that crap you're buying as truth is about as incomplete as your education on all things non-white - non-existent. Reaching for the single mother stat? Have you looked at the white single mothers stats? And don't think for a second just because it's not reported..it doesn't exist - there are so many single white mothers with kids here in Southern Calif. it's not funny, and I'm sure every state o the South has us beat.

I gotta say this..you're good at them stereotypes.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):

You've hit the nail on the head, Doc. It's not about color, it's about culture. And we've got to get to a place where we can point out where some aspect of a culture is broken (ie self defeating) so that it can improve. Unfortunately we can't do that in 2013 without charges of ignorance and racism.

Another ridiculous and spurious claim... when was the last time you looked at someone and saw their culture. You just confessed to looking at someone's dress and being worried to death of being mugged. White kids dress like the black kids you despise..they scare you too? Is that white culture boring from black culture.

We do see skin color just as we see someone disabled in a wheelchair, only the delusional try and tell themselves they do not. Most Americans could not identify or distinguish a one culture from another if their lives depended on it and so they rely on the visual default - what they see - color and what their parents taught them on how to deal with that person that's different. Stop with the weak senseless excuses.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 106):
...given all the marches today (and this week) ..it just means the next 'Zimmerman situation or White Cop kills unarmed Black male.... we may not be so lucky.

Is that a threat?

Scared Again? Open your eyes and look at the news! Is that all your brain can see is just people holding up signs and walking. Can't see the forest for the trees???

A threat? How can I threaten an entire nation? What kind of brain conceives such a question or muse? A Threat? The signs are all over the place if you can get past being scared of clothes and images and cultures you think are assailing your way of life.

Since it isn't obvious and child-think is at play here (is that a threat?..jeez) the signs clearly point to mounting frustration and that has reached boiling point.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Good luck taking on the other 85% of the US population,

In your silly game of numbers and some Stormfront like attack mode... the white population is in the 60 percentile and shrinking. Attitudes like yours aim right at a race war as the numbers dwindle or worse, when there is minority dominance..will they give you what you been giving - ignorance. I certainly hope not. But I would I have problem with stamping a big giant 'R' on the foreheads of the Coulters/OReillys/Limbaughs/Becks of the world and let the reap their just rewards.. not at all.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
most of whom have been politely keeping their mouths shut and going to work while you bang your trash can lids in the street. I wouldn't count on that status quo if it gets violent.

But I suppose people will just be content with burning down their own neighborhoods like they did last time.



I bet you really believe all that too. Good luck pal.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Frankly, I have nothing against black people..

Your posts suggest otherwise and lot more.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
.I just want to be left alone.

It sounds like you're at war with yourself. Are Al and Jesse appearing in your dreams shoving pamphlets down your throat to erase your well stated beliefs of long standing racial stereotypes? I doubt it. Do they even speak to you at all? Probably out of being polite in passing on the street is as far as it gets and going on and selling stereotypes.

The only person that needs to leave you alone is YOU. Your war is playing out entirely in that Animal Kingdom mind you so elaborately laid out.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
What I don't like is you, or more accurately the politics that you represent, that are ultimately destructive to those you claim to be fighting for.

That's just your best stereotype-driven guess and it's so far gone you can't see any other possibilities.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
our script is so well developed but none of it includes the individuals who have the most to gain taking ownership of the aspects of this issue that they can control.

Of course it does if you could surgically have the stereotypes removed. But that's impossible with a mind showcased here.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Instead you choose to focus on blaming the past and by extension me (shifting the focus from past to present or back again to suit your argument) and I reject that.

The past is inextricably linked to what is occurring now as well as the future. It is how history is made. Too many people like you and Joe Walsh are doing your best to erase it from people's memories. Tell the Jews they should forget the past and see what that gets you. It is indeed the best strategy of a conniving scoundrel, throw them of track and we can escape our responsibilities.

Every decent person has a responsibility and a role in bettering society if society is to succeed...regardless of the past. But if past situations of the negative kind continue unaltered then a heavier hammer is needed to forge change.
Humans are great creatures of learning from their mistakes..they are much more prone to repeating them - over and over again. Old mindsets that are rooted in stillborn thinking ensure that...and you my man are leading the pack.

You don't even want change because you don't even know what is needed, you only know what is necessary to keep you comfortable and to bring others around to seeing things your way..the old way. And you haven't even noticed that - that way itself, has already begun to morph into something entirely different. So bitching and gripping about who's rocking the boat is the only strategy - oh and long with 'shut up about the past'... the aggrieved party has a right to bitch and complain...the other can make a play for it, but it makes no sense.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 109):
Those of us who value and have personally implemented the concept of individual responsibility see your diatribe for what it is and respond negatively.

A Republican Red Herring...one needs only to look at Red State financial dependency to see that those who keep idiots like Rick Scott, Rick Perry, Bachmann, Palin and the other knuckledraggers around to see there really is no such valid thing as individual responsibility the way conservatives toss it about. It's solely a FEAR based definition.

BN747

[Edited 2013-07-21 12:24:03]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 111, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5506 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
heroed Republicans

Point of order, I am not a fan of the Republican Party, not from the South, and have never lived in a cave. You're making the same leaps that you accuse me of.

You still have not responded to this statement that I made:

"Trayvon Martin's death really is sad, but George Zimmerman is not "yet another example" of how the prevailing US culture or people who are lighter skinned than you are the reason for all of your problems. George Z was an asshole, may have been a racist profiler, and this incident raises fair questions about guns - but it absolutely took two to tango that night, something that no one is talking about at the "Justice for Trayvon" rallies. If the entering argument is that it is OK for black kids to physically assault someone who is hassling them (especially if they are white) because of the injustices of history or current inequalities of the system, then the black community has got a lot more pain coming. That is what is really sad."

This is the crux of the issue. It's easier to paint me into a corner as some old grumpy fearful racist white guy than to face the very real probability that the black community has latched onto this case as some sort of racial injustice because they have been carefully manipulated to that end. And to me it sounds like a broken record.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
The past is inextricably linked to what is occurring now as well as the future. It is how history is made. Too many people like you and Joe Walsh are doing your best to erase it from people's memories. Tell the Jews they should forget the past and see what that gets you. It is indeed the best strategy of a conniving scoundrel, throw them of track and we can escape our responsibilities.

While I do believe the obligations of citizenship to be substantial, I have no more responsibility to you than I do to any other American citizen. Regardless of what sad stories you play over and over again in your mind, you are NOT special.

And I would gladly tell a Jew to pound sand if he/she were trying to blame their problems in 2013 on what happened back in the Holocaust. But the thing is, they wouldn't!

Since you mention them, contrast the Jews' response to outright GENOCIDE and discrimination on a global scale for thousands of years to your favorite charity's response to enslavement in the United States. It's embarrassing how much better they have done. It's all in their attitude, which is rooted in their culture. Which probably explains much of the black anti-Semitism we see from the likes of Farakan...the Jews undercut the central doctrine of self pity and blame that powers much of African American politics, to their detriment.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
Attitudes like yours aim right at a race war as the numbers dwindle or worse, when there is minority dominance..will they give you what you been giving - ignorance.

Hell, I sure hope that when I get old I get back what I have been giving! Working hard full time, staying married to my wife, raising my kid to be kind and responsible and paying my taxes (goodness knows how much of which go to support the people who I've supposedly been oppressing). Hell, I even recycle when I'm not expressly required to.

You need to face the fact that I and people like me of all colors are the guys 'keeping the lights on' around here. We're not the sheeple on the TV crying about 'poor Trayvon'.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
You don't even want change because you don't even know what is needed, you only know what is necessary to keep you comfortable and to bring others around to seeing things your way..the old way.

Which way is that exactly...of not acting like a douche and dragging down everyone around me? Guilty as charged.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
the aggrieved party has a right to bitch and complain...

Absolutely, BUT NOT TO ME BECAUSE I WARRANT NO GRIEVANCE anywhere other than in your Malcolm X Version 2 skull. I've never done anything but my duty to my fellow man and I don't want to hear it from you any more. Build a bridge and get over it.

[Edited 2013-07-21 15:59:28]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 112, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5502 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
I submit that your ride-along experience with your swarthy friend taught you nothing but a superficial lesson, you're clearly in need of 'wash n repeat' until you do.

I'm sorry, but you are still claiming that behavior is racial. The Nazis claimed that. I don't.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
Another ridiculous and spurious claim... when was the last time you looked at someone and saw their culture.

Every. Single. Day. Your culture is visible in your dress and your general presentation. Culture is learned.

When a culture is based on opposing education and glorifying crime, there is something wrong with that culture. No different than when a culture is based on subjugating women and killing infidels.

Seriously, It's not that I need to "learn." By your logic, if behaviors and culture are racial, then we might as well genocide all Middle-Easterners because they're terrorists. We might as well re-enslave the Blacks because without proper supervision, they'll make a mess of themselves and everything else. We should train Mexicans to be nursemaids and nannys.

Repugnant.

http://actingwhite.blogspot.com/2006...injustice-bill-cosby-wont-see.html

Read this. I take Mr. Collier's view. Mostly.

What you are saying is that this is a one-sided issue and it's all Whitey's fault. Well, you know what? It's a two-way street.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
I'm certain that your bruised ego has you thinking that you speak for all but historical fact points out that you speak for only yourself, I know very militant gays here who'd rotisserie you for suggesting that that's what they did and that dreamland accounting is what got things where they are today.

And I disagree with them very strongly. If we make a public show of acting like a bunch of perverts, we will be treated that way.

If we present ourself as tax-paying American men and women who are entitled to equal rights, then we get them. That has drawn ire among the more militant ones but then again, I have little use for militants. They seem to confuse sex for sexual orientation. The former should be a private matter. The latter need not.

Just as you confuse race for behavior. They are not the same.


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1938 posts, RR: 32
Reply 113, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5494 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 65):
However, here's my take on that: today's generation has grown up without that so-called 'white privilege' by and large. In fact, any of these Gen X'ers or Millenials or whatever the hell they're called today have grown up in an age of affirmative action, quotas, a colorblind society that's been integrated for some time. It is those people who really are over the race thing because they don't see that as a big deal, they marry interracially, and don't bat an eye over this stuff.

These younger whites may not be racist personally, but they certainly still enjoy "white privilege" every day of their lives.

I think that bike video posted above is a perfect example of white privilege. I could post ten more experiments and studies that have similar results, but I don't have time. The one video there is enough to get the idea--to see that even where the individuals involved in many cases act without conscious racism, all the cards are stacked for whites and against blacks.

The point is not to ask young whites to apologize for crimes of their ancestors, but to be aware of how much the cards are still stacked for them, socially and institutionally. It goes a long way toward understanding many responses by minorities to a case such as the Zimmerman trial, and to enter into a constructive dialogue instead of calling Al Sharpton a bunch of names.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently onlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7993 posts, RR: 5
Reply 114, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5470 times:

I think in the end, African-Americans are let down by the actions of their political leaders.

And we have a very clear example of this: the financial bankruptcy of Detroit, MI. After the 1967 race riots, anyone of means left Detroit post haste, and the late former Mayor Coleman Young did everything to encourage that emigration to go even faster. Today, except for a few parts of town such as Greektown and the area around the Renaissance Center, Detroit has fallen in crumbling ruins that defies description. This tragedy unfortunately reinforces the stereotype--rightfully or not!--of African-Americans as incompetent political leaders.

The African-American community needs to really consider whether they need better spokespersons for their own people in business and politics, in my humble opinion. And look at their own lifestyles to find out why they're so intensely disliked in certain parts of the country.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 115, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5464 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 113):
The point is not to ask young whites to apologize for crimes of their ancestors, but to be aware of how much the cards are still stacked for them, socially and institutionally. It goes a long way toward understanding many responses by minorities to a case such as the Zimmerman trial, and to enter into a constructive dialogue ins
tead of calling Al Sharpton a bunch of names.

Very true. I think that an admission that "white privilege" exists is important. However, have you noticed that there are other races that get the pass from law enforcement and the like?


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 116, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 113):
These younger whites may not be racist personally, but they certainly still enjoy "white privilege" every day of their lives.

I think that bike video posted above is a perfect example of white privilege. I could post ten more experiments and studies that have similar results, but I don't have time. The one video there is enough to get the idea--to see that even where the individuals involved in many cases act without conscious racism, all the cards are stacked for whites and against blacks.

Agreed, the empirical data is undeniable.

But by the same token anyone with their eyes open can see blacks stacking a lot of the cards against other blacks by the nonsense that they say and do. Hence the

Quoting n229nw (Reply 113):
calling Al Sharpton a bunch of names.

As for this...

Quoting n229nw (Reply 113):
The point is not to ask young whites to apologize for crimes of their ancestors, but to be aware of how much the cards are still stacked for them, socially and institutionally. It goes a long way toward understanding many responses by minorities to a case such as the Zimmerman trial, and to enter into a constructive dialogue

Fair enough. The minute that a single African American in this country goes on TV and admits that Trayvon Martin's violent response to being at worst verbally harassed by George Zimmerman was understandable but probably inappropriate, I'd say we have the beginnings of a dialog. What we have now is Trayvon Martin being elevated to Jesus 2013 and rally point for racial discontent.

Hell, what if Zimmerman was right and Martin really was looking to break into somebody's car? How does that change the way we look at this case? What lessons should African American parents be taking from this incident in order to protect their own kids? These are tough questions but given Martin's history with the truancy, graffiti and jewelry theft they are fair. Why are no African Americans publicly asking them?

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 114):
The African-American community needs to really consider whether they need better spokespersons for their own people in business and politics, in my humble opinion. And look at their own lifestyles to find out why they're so intensely disliked in certain parts of the country.

True...understanding only goes so far. People need to see better performance in the real world where it matters if they are to conclude that the stereotypes they have formed about other people are unwarranted. Even if they are unfair in most cases, these stereotypes took a long time to earn and will require a concerted effort to 'live down'.

If any of our African American members have concrete behaviors that I as a white man can exhibit in my daily routine to counter stereotypes that blacks might have about me I'm happy to consider them.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 117, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5453 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
heroed Republicans

Point of order, I am not a fan of the Republican Party, not from the South

Reading what you've written...one would be hard pressed to guess other wise - seriously!
That's not even a centimeter left of center and seriously hard Right diatribe you spilled here.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):

You still have not responded to this statement that I made:

"Trayvon Martin's death really is sad, but George Zimmerman is not "yet another example" of how the prevailing US culture or people who are lighter skinned than you are the reason for all of your problems. George Z was an asshole, may have been a racist profiler, and this incident raises fair questions about guns - but it absolutely took two to tango that night, something that no one is talking about at the "Justice for Trayvon" rallies

What do you expect me or anyone to say? Seriously...what?

Both were wrong? That would mean pretending to FULLY know the story from the dead kid's perspective PLUS that as told by the proven Liar.

How can that be done? It can't.

The Liar is the only with a tale to tell..and he's told several different versions with his pack of lies.

So if you're expecting a 'both sides are guilty' credit as most irrational and false thinking has yielded..you won't get it here.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
This is the crux of the issue. It's easier to paint me into a corner as some old grumpy fearful racist white guy

Your own words painted that picture..I could create a tv character just from your post and guess who he'd look like? The bigoted character Archie Bunker who was that way by design... you on the other hand volunteered your perspective.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
than to face the very real probability that the black community has latched onto this case as some sort of racial injustice because they have been carefully manipulated to that end. And to me it sounds like a broken record.

Yes of course that's exactly what they did, a history littered with unbroken strings of racial injustice just DOES NOT exist...it's false history in your mind. Next up...the Holocaust wasn't real...I've seen that trick - didn't work before, won't work now.

Pretending legitimate history has no bearing and plays no role in to days world why your views are so condemned by growing numbers and dying with those who tried to sustain them. It's all be about the suppression of a dark truths.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
I have no more responsibility to you than I do to any other American citizen.

Thank goodness you're not needed.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
Regardless of what sad stories you play over and over again in your mind, you are NOT special.

I'm not? Aww shucks...I thought there for a minute I was like earth, that special planet out of trillions on trillions that stood apart - back to the drawing board I guess.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
And I would gladly tell a Jew to pound sand if he/she were trying to blame their problems in 2013 on what happened back in the Holocaust. But the thing is, they wouldn't!

They certainly would if you tried to pull that 'forget the past, it has no meaning crap' on them. The state of Israel is a constant reminder of 'never forget'. Pay attention.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
You need to face the fact that I and people like me of all colors are the guys 'keeping the lights on' around here. We're not the sheeple on the TV crying about 'poor Trayvon'.

Ooohh so it's you that's special. You know what all those people out in the streets are doing, they're all unemployed free loaders killing time huh? You my friends are completely unhinged if believe one shallow word of that. And correction...people like you only come in one color - self-centered and closed minded.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):

Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
You don't even want change because you don't even know what is needed, you only know what is necessary to keep you comfortable and to bring others around to seeing things your way..the old way.

Which way is that exactly...of not acting like a douche and dragging down everyone around me?

..well I was gonna say 'beyond single dimensional thinking'... but whatever,

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
Absolutely, BUT NOT TO ME BECAUSE I WARRANT NO GRIEVANCE anywhere other than in your Malcolm X Version 2 skull. I've never done anything but my duty to my fellow man

wait... but...

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
I have no more responsibility to you than I do to any other American citizen.

Wait, I'm confused, which is duty and which is responsibility and what is it exactly?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
uoting BN747 (Reply 110):
I submit that your ride-along experience with your swarthy friend taught you nothing but a superficial lesson, you're clearly in need of 'wash n repeat' until you do.

I'm sorry, but you are still claiming that behavior is racial. The Nazis claimed that.

What on earth are you yammering about... you yourself said the cop was racist... now the Nazis were right? What?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
Another ridiculous and spurious claim... when was the last time you looked at someone and saw their culture.

Every. Single. Day. Your culture is visible in your dress and your general presentation. Culture is learned.

Cultured is learned .. but your presentation/dress nonsense is just that...I must look like 5 different cultures in 1 week....how's that possible or accurate. If you walk into a black nightclub in Atlanta, people are going notice your dress right off the bat..they're going to notice your skin color first and make a spot judgement..stop being ridiculous.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
Seriously, It's not that I need to "learn."

Oh yes you do...a lot to learn.

I'd be seriously embarrassed coming from a discriminated-against demographic and yet so clueless as to trumped by 'right of center' member here who has nowhere near the life experiences among the diverse as you do...it's down right shameful and pathetic...but then again, so are Log Cabin Republicans - if Uncle Tom had a gay version, they are it. And such a fly-by-night understanding the American Race paradigm as poorly as you have is exactly what I'd expect from one of them..word-for-word.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
if behaviors and culture are racial, then we might as well genocide all Middle-Easterners because they're terrorists.

You are hysterically confusing stereotypes with truthful racial and cultural identiies..but I'm no longer shocked what comes from you.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
We might as well re-enslave the Blacks because without proper supervision, they'll make a mess of themselves and everything else. We should train Mexicans to be nursemaids and nannys.

No clue what any of that means..but again, you cannot make sense of your erratic and irrational lack of deeper insight given 'the unfortunates' you work with - how do you expect me to? You are however filling your needs of benevolence, altruism and spirit of community in that respect and it is highly commendable... but clearly it makes to no kind of expert whatsoever understanding deeper causes of what they face (or experience) after they leave you. They are just numbers like the feedings of a soup line.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
http://actingwhite.blogspot.com/2006...injustice-bill-cosby-wont-see.html

Read this. I take Mr. Collier's view. Mostly.

No thanks, because you can just barely handle racism understanding on the most elementary levels let alone trying to discuss the 'acting white' theme that has been a phenomena if of it's self since the inception of slavery and it was called 'passing'... you ran across something knowing absolutely zero of the inherent history context and ran with it. That's not the way to learn anything..but it is an easy way to 'cut and paste' and adopt someone else's words because it fits your limited understanding and narrative.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 110):
I'm certain that your bruised ego has you thinking that you speak for all but historical fact points out that you speak for only yourself, I know very militant gays here who'd rotisserie you for suggesting that that's what they did and that dreamland accounting is what got things where they are today.

And I disagree with them very strongly. If we make a public show of acting like a bunch of perverts, we will be treated that way.

Even more ignorance and no lessons learned from history.

Perverts is a termed used by those most uncomfortable with sexuality in general. The Third Installment of the PBS documentary Prohibition was aptly entitled: A Nation of Hypocrites.

And that's what America is when it comes to Sex as well. Here is where the Europeans clean our clocks..they don't get all bent out of shape over nudity and sex in general. That old church 'act of the devil' or that woman had it coming because of the way she dressed nonsense dates back the very first words scripted by the decrepit senile old men who wrote what we know as the bible..and here you are still trying to give it validity.


The Europeans healthier attitudes in this regard is why a great many of them can see things much more on an even keel and sensible plain. We Americans to too entangled with silly, such as pull your skirt below the knew and 'act like this or that in public. You've become your grandfather is just a few short years,

Women are still establishing themselves and expressing and discovering their sexuality after centuries of it being refined and defined for them.

So are you going take it step further and say "she was dressed like a slut so she deserved to be treated like that - groped or raped"?

Being Gay is much more than running around naked on a float, but it is a flaunting of expression that only a prude or a sexually repressed/insecure individual would have a problem with.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
If we present ourself as tax-paying American men and women who are entitled to equal rights, then we get them

That has fell flat on it's face for many 'Black tax-paying American men and women'.. but yeah, sure whatever dude.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
I have little use for militants. They seem to confuse sex for sexual orientation. The former should be a private matter. The latter need not.

Those militants made your life that much more open as a gay person and easier whether you choose to except it or not. Their taking a stand made it happen..passive clamoring emulation for acceptance.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):

Just as you confuse race for behavior. They are not the same.

Your standing on race is about as sound as your ability to understand the history and whole of sexuality outside your own bedroom - zilch. And please keep it there because we've tried the Puritanical route and it indeed proved us a Nation of Hypocrites.


BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 118, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
No clue what any of that means..but again, you cannot make sense of your erratic and irrational lack of deeper insight given 'the unfortunates' you work with - how do you expect me to?

You're putting words in my mouth. I never called them that.

I don't think you're even reading my posts. I'm done arguing with you.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 119, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Reading what you've written...one would be hard pressed to guess other wise - seriously!
That's not even a centimeter left of center and seriously hard Right diatribe you spilled here.

Sounds like you're saying all right wingers are racist...



Flying refined.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 120, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5426 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
What you are saying is that this is a one-sided issue and it's all Whitey's fault. Well, you know what? It's a two-way street.

No it isn't..it would be were it an even playing field from day-one, you'd have a leg to stand on.. it wasn't and it isn't.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 118):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
No clue what any of that means..but again, you cannot make sense of your erratic and irrational lack of deeper insight given 'the unfortunates' you work with - how do you expect me to?

You're putting words in my mouth. I never called them that.

I don't think you're even reading my posts. I'm done arguing with you.

well you certainly didn't praise them as much as you were praising yourself.. but probably for the better. You're just one election away from joining the Palinites. Life does indeed throw some curve balls.. gotta say I expected way much more substance from you than this stuff any Arkansas hick could have cranked out.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 119):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Reading what you've written...one would be hard pressed to guess other wise - seriously!
That's not even a centimeter left of center and seriously hard Right diatribe you spilled here.

Sounds like you're saying all right wingers are racist...

All self avowed racists are indeed right wingers. Go to Stormfront or any racist website and poll their political affiliations..few if any leftist to be found.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 116):
The minute that a single African American in this country goes on TV and admits that Trayvon Martin's violent response to being at worst verbally harassed by George Zimmerman was understandable but probably inappropriate, I'd say we have the beginnings of a dialog.

Which is a false outright premise.

Because no one can admit to something they don't know. And taking the word of a Liar just doesn't cut it.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 114):
And we have a very clear example of this: the financial bankruptcy of Detroit, MI. After the 1967 race riots, anyone of means left Detroit post haste, and the late former Mayor Coleman Young did everything to encourage that emigration to go even faster. Today, except for a few parts of town such as Greektown and the area around the Renaissance Center, Detroit has fallen in crumbling ruins that defies description. This tragedy unfortunately reinforces the stereotype--rightfully or not!--of African-Americans as incompetent political leaders.

Very stereotypical and clearly from poorly informed mindset,


African Americans are incompetent leaders?


When New York City came within a hair of bankruptcy under John Lindsey (all him too 1966-1973)

would that have made all whites incompetent political leaders? Does George Bush make all whites incompetent political leaders.

here are the other list of bankrupt US Cities: LED by Whites.
City of Detroit
-- City of San Bernardino, Calif.
-- Town of Mammoth Lakes, Calf. (Dismissed)
-- City of Stockton, Calif.
-- Jefferson County, Ala.
-- City of Harrisburg, Pa. (Dismissed)
-- City of Central Falls, R.I.
-- Boise County, Idaho (Dismissed)

...so I guess whites are really incompetent political leaders by your means of measure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first_African-American_mayors

1966

First African-American mayor of a U.S. city: Robert C. Henry, Springfield, Ohio (appointed by city commission)

1967

First African American elected mayor of a large U.S. city: Carl Stokes (Cleveland, Ohio)
First African American elected mayor of Gary, Indiana: Richard G. Hatcher
First African American appointed mayor of Washington, D.C.: Walter Washington (see also: 1975)

1968

First African American elected Mayor of Montclair, New Jersey: Matthew G. Carter[4]
First African American mayor of a Kentucky city: Luska Twyman, Glasgow, Kentucky
First African American elected mayor of a predominantly white southern city: Howard Nathaniel Lee, Chapel Hill, North Carolina[5]

1969

First African American elected mayor of a Mississippi city: Charles Evers, Fayette, Mississippi[6]

1970s

1970

First African American elected mayor of Newark, New Jersey: Kenneth A. Gibson
First African American elected mayor of Dayton, Ohio: James H. McGee
First African American appointed mayor of Wichita, Kansas: A. Price Woodard[7]
First African-American elected mayor of Salina, Kansas: Robert C. Caldwell[8]

1971

First African American appointed mayor of Grand Rapids, Michigan: Lyman Parks (see also: 1973)

1972

First African-American mayor of Tallahassee, Florida: James R. Ford

First African-American mayor of Cincinnati, Ohio: Ted Berry

1973

First African American elected mayor of Detroit, Michigan: Coleman Young
First African American elected mayor of Raleigh, North Carolina: Clarence Lightner
First African American elected mayor of a major Southern city: Maynard Jackson, Atlanta, Georgia[9]
First African American elected mayor of a major Western city: Tom Bradley, Los Angeles, California
First African American woman mayor of a major satellite city: Doris A. Davis, Compton, California
First African American elected mayor of Grand Rapids, Michigan: Lyman Parks (see also: 1971)

1975

First African American elected mayor, and first elected mayor, of Washington, D.C.: Walter Washington (see also: 1967)

1977

First African American mayor of Richmond, Virginia: Henry L. Marsh[10] (Note: elected from within nine City Council members; changed to general election in 2003)

1978

First African American elected mayor of Oakland, California: Lionel Wilson
First African American elected mayor of New Orleans: Ernest Nathan Morial

1979

First African American elected mayor of Birmingham, Alabama: Richard Arrington, Jr.

1980s

1981

First African American elected Mayor of Camden, New Jersey: Randy Primas[11]
First African American elected mayor of Spokane, Washington: James Everett Chase

1982

First African American appointed mayor of Memphis, Tennessee: J.O. Patterson, Jr.

1983

First African American elected Mayor of Chicago: Harold Washington
First African American elected mayor of Charlotte, North Carolina: Harvey Gantt

1984

First African American elected Mayor of Atlantic City, New Jersey: James L. Usry
First African American elected Mayor of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Wilson Goode
First African American elected mayor of Portsmouth, Virginia: James W. Holley, III

1987

First African American appointed mayor of Baltimore, Maryland: Clarence H. Burns

1988

First African American elected mayor of Baltimore, Maryland: Kurt Schmoke
First African American elected mayor of Hempstead, New York: James A. Garner

1989

First African American elected mayor of New York, New York: David Dinkins
First African American elected mayor of New Haven, Connecticut: John C. Daniels
First African American elected mayor of Richmond, California: George Livingston[12]
First African American elected mayor of Rockford, Illinois: Charles Box
First African American elected mayor of Seattle, Washington: Norm Rice

1990s

1990

First African American elected Mayor of Trenton, New Jersey: Douglas Palmer
First African American elected mayor of New Bern, North Carolina: Leander R. "Lee" Morgan [13]

1991

First African American elected mayor of Memphis, Tennessee: W. W. Herenton
First African American elected mayor of Denver, Colorado: Wellington Webb
First African American elected mayor of Kansas City, Missouri: Emanuel Cleaver
First African American woman elected mayor of Washington, D.C.: Sharon Pratt Kelly

1993

First African American elected mayor of St. Louis, Missouri: Freeman Bosley, Jr.
First African American elected mayor of Rochester, New York: William A. Johnson, Jr.

1994

First African American and first woman elected mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota: Sharon Sayles Belton

1995

First African American elected mayor of Dallas, Texas: Ron Kirk
First African American elected mayor of Jeanerette, Louisiana:James "T.K." Alexander Sr.(mayor)

1996

First African American elected mayor of San Francisco, California: Willie Brown

1997

First African American elected mayor of Jackson, Mississippi: Harvey Johnson, Jr.
First African American elected mayor of Houston, Texas: Lee P. Brown

2000s

2000

First African American elected mayor of Columbus, Ohio: Michael B. Coleman

2001

First African-American elected Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi: Johnny L. Dupree[14]
First African-American woman mayor of major Southern city, and first woman to be elected mayor of Atlanta, Georgia: Shirley Franklin[15]
First African American and first woman elected mayor of Southfield, Michigan: Brenda L. Lawrence
First African American elected Mayor of Heidelberg, Mississippi: Juan Barnett

2002

First African-American woman elected mayor of Dayton, Ohio: Rhine McLin
First African-American elected mayor of Toledo, Ohio: Jack Ford

2003

First African-American elected mayor of Palm Springs, California: Ron Oden
First African American elected by citizens as mayor of Tallahassee, Florida: John Marks
First African-American elected mayor, and first elected mayor, of San Ramon, California: H. Abram Wilson

2004

First African American elected mayor of Baton Rouge, Louisiana: Kip Holden
First African American mayor of Milwaukee, Wisconsin: Marvin Pratt
First African American elected mayor of Pine Bluff, Arkansas: Carl A. Redus, Jr.[16]

2005

First African American elected mayor of Buffalo, New York: Byron Brown
First African American elected mayor of Mobile, Alabama: Sam Jones
First African American elected mayor of Asheville, North Carolina: Terry Bellamy
First African American elected mayor of Cincinnati, Ohio: Mark Mallory
First African American elected mayor of Youngstown, Ohio: Jay Williams

2006

First African American elected mayor of Shreveport, Louisiana: Cedric Glover
First African American elected mayor of Anderson, South Carolina: Terence Roberts

2007

First African American woman and first woman elected mayor of Baltimore, Maryland: Sheila Dixon
First African American elected mayor of Greensboro, North Carolina: Yvonne Johnson
First African American elected mayor of Wichita, Kansas: Carl Brewer
First African American elected mayor of South Harrison Township, New Jersey: Charles Tyson[17]

2008

First African American elected mayor of Blue Springs, Missouri: Carson Ross
First African American elected mayor of Lancaster, Texas: Marcus Knight
First African American elected mayor of Mansfield, Ohio: Donald Culliver
First African American elected mayor of Sacramento, California: Kevin Johnson
First African American mayor of Festus, Missouri: Earl Cook[18]

2009

First African American elected mayor of Philadelphia, Mississippi: James Young
First African American elected mayor of Freeport, New York: Andrew Hardwick[19]
First African American and first woman elected mayor of Saratoga Springs, Utah, and first African-American woman elected mayor in Utah: Mia Love[20]

2010s

2010

First African-American and first African-American woman elected mayor of Fontana, California: Acquanetta Warren [21]

2011

First African American elected mayor of Jacksonville, Florida: Alvin Brown[22]

2012

First African-American Mayor of Ithaca, New York: Svante Myrick
First African-American Mayor of Antioch, California: Wade Harper[23]

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 114):

The African-American community needs to really consider whether they need better spokespersons for their own people in business and politics, in my humble opinion

Detroit does South and you single-handedly decide that Blacks are incompetent.

I'd be really embarrassed if I were your age and made such absurd comment in public with out checking any facts and going solely based on my own prejudices.

Educate yourself friend or more embarrassing moments are sure to arrive...but it must be of comfort when one of our eager readers all to happily signs off and agrees with your woeful display of ignorance of the US political scene from a race perspective...but he merely gave in to his own wanton impulses.


BN747

[Edited 2013-07-21 19:36:05]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 121, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5422 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
What do you expect me or anyone to say? Seriously...what?

That regardless of the situation, responding to verbal harassment with violence is not the way for young men to solve their problems. Especially young men who are trying to overcome 'unjust' stereotypes regarding their behavior.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Yes of course that's exactly what they did, a history littered with unbroken strings of racial injustice just DOES NOT exist...it's false history in your mind. Next up...the Holocaust wasn't real...I've seen that trick - didn't work before, won't work now.

Pretending legitimate history has no bearing and plays no role in to days world why your views are so condemned by growing numbers and dying with those who tried to sustain them. It's all be about the suppression of a dark truths.

I never said that it wasn't legitimate or that it doesn't have a bearing on today. I'm simply saying that it neither relieves you of the burden of responsibility for your own actions nor transfers it to me or anyone else. And that your best bet is to get to work on fixing your broken society instead of standing on the street corner with signs aimed at us.

If a white man came off the boat from some other country tomorrow you would expect him to assume some measure of guilt about what was done to the African Americans simply because of the "white privilege" that he is about to enjoy. Which is pure insanity and does nothing but extend the period for which you give yourselves a pass instead of cleaning out your own nest.

And begs the question how much better off the average African American is in 2013 than the average inhabitant of the countries that they would have been born in otherwise. Maybe you ought to stop bitching long enough to recognize the lemonade that you should be making out of the lemons you have found here. Or do you want us to squeeze them for you?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
They certainly would if you tried to pull that 'forget the past, it has no meaning crap' on them. The state of Israel is a constant reminder of 'never forget'. Pay attention.

Which I would never do, you conveniently change the context of what I said to suit your purposes. Good job sidestepping the rest of what I said regarding the excellence that the Jews have pursued in response to discrimination and abuse.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Wait, I'm confused, which is duty and which is responsibility and what is it exactly?

The words are interchangeable, my point was that we all have duties and responsibilities to each other as citizens...but I don't owe you anything extra no matter how special you think you are for being black.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 118):
You're putting words in my mouth. I never called them that.

I don't think you're even reading my posts. I'm done arguing with you.

Good call Doc...if he'd actually consider the points you've made the conversation would already be over. But BN747 is enjoying the attention, much like those waving the useless "justice for Trayvon" signs this weekend.

Enjoy your life BN747, if that is possible with the weight of the world you are carrying.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 122, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5410 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 120):
All self avowed racists are indeed right wingers.

To borrow one of your lines from Reply 110..."If you're going to level the charge at me.. substantiate the charge."

Quoting BN747 (Reply 120):
Educate yourself friend or more embarrassing moments are sure to arrive
Quoting BN747 (Reply 120):
gotta say I expected way much more substance from you than this stuff any Arkansas hick could have cranked out
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
The bigoted character Archie Bunker who was that way by design... you on the other hand volunteered your perspective
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
people like you only come in one color - self-centered and closed minded.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
Seriously, It's not that I need to "learn."

Oh yes you do...a lot to learn.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
You are hysterically confusing stereotypes with truthful racial and cultural identiies..but I'm no longer shocked what comes from you.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
No clue what any of that means..but again, you cannot make sense of your erratic and irrational lack of deeper insight
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
it is an easy way to 'cut and paste' and adopt someone else's words because it fits your limited understanding and narrative.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Your standing on race is about as sound as your ability to understand the history and whole of sexuality outside your own bedroom - zilch.

Honest question: Are you capable of civil debate without hurling personal attacks those who disagree with you? I mean that sincerely, because the above sampling is from only two of your posts.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 123, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5410 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 122):

Honest question: Are you capable of civil debate without hurling personal attacks those who disagree with you? I mean that sincerely, because the above sampling is from only two of your posts.

Honest question... answer this honestly, these below are just from one of single post... did you miss them our were just hunting out my replies? Do you think you are being equal and fair in your criticisms of me?

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
I don't owe you anything extra no matter how special you think you are for being black.
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
Maybe you ought to stop bitching long enough to recognize
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
Which is pure insanity and does nothing but extend the period for which you give yourselves a pass
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
And that your best bet is to get to work on fixing your broken society instead of standing on the street corner with signs aimed at us.

We choose to see what we want .. don't we?

--- back to the discussion.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
What do you expect me or anyone to say? Seriously...what?

That regardless of the situation, responding to verbal harassment with violence is not the way for young men to solve their problems. Especially young men who are trying to overcome 'unjust' stereotypes regarding their behavior.

You don't get it do you? No one knows for sure what occurred no matter how much Liar Zimmerman had convinced you.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
Yes of course that's exactly what they did, a history littered with unbroken strings of racial injustice just DOES NOT exist...it's false history in your mind. Next up...the Holocaust wasn't real...I've seen that trick - didn't work before, won't work now.

Pretending legitimate history has no bearing and plays no role in to days world why your views are so condemned by growing numbers and dying with those who tried to sustain them. It's all be about the suppression of a dark truths.

I never said that it wasn't legitimate or that it doesn't have a bearing on today. I'm simply saying that it neither relieves you of the burden of responsibility for your own actions nor transfers it to me or anyone else.

No one is saying anyone is resolved of responsibility of any kind..that's just another one of ghost in your head creeping you out.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):

If a white man came off the boat from some other country tomorrow you would expect him to assume some measure of guilt about what was done to the African Americans simply because of the "white privilege" that he is about to enjoy. Which is pure insanity and does nothing but extend the period for which you give yourselves a pass instead of cleaning out your own nest.

No what it does is simply give his 'white privilege' to enjoy...what's insane is you believing it has some residual effect on me personally.

Clear out what nest? What are you talking about? What can anyone's 'nest' do up against decades of institutionalized racism..have you a clue about what you're trying to discuss? Institutionalized racism only goes when minds like yours are put out to pasture and retired.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
And begs the question how much better off the average African American is in 2013 than the average inhabitant of the countries that they would have been born in otherwise. Maybe you ought to stop bitching long enough to recognize the lemonade that you should be making out of the lemons you have found here. Or do you want us to squeeze them for you?

What website are you pulling down all this ignorance? If African Americans were never brought here, America wouldn't look like it does today... and you'd be speaking German in some small hamlet or village still pissed about one of the world wars or wherever your ancestors hail from. America would be Spanish or Mexican as far as that silly analogy goes. Slavery built the foundation of this country..so it is you who should be wondering what you would be doing if they were here.

Have all the lemons you can get your hands on... I graduated from such simplicities long ago. If I come across any, I'll be glad to toss 'em your way.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 117):
They certainly would if you tried to pull that 'forget the past, it has no meaning crap' on them. The state of Israel is a constant reminder of 'never forget'. Pay attention.

Which I would never do,

Except you did do it..

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
And I would gladly tell a Jew to pound sand if he/she were trying to blame their problems in 2013 on what happened back in the Holocaust.
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):
.but I don't owe you anything extra no matter how special you think you are for being black.

You aren't in possession of a single thing I could possibly want - where the hell is that coming from? If you're not living in the better part of Southern Calif. you really have nothing anyone would want. So you put a lid on the 'anyone wants your stuff - whatever that is'.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 111):
And I would gladly tell a Jew to pound sand if he/she were trying to blame their problems in 2013 on what happened back in the Holocaust. But the thing is, they wouldn't!

Since you mention them, contrast the Jews' response to outright GENOCIDE and discrimination on a global scale for thousands of years to your favorite charity's response to enslavement in the United States. It's embarrassing how much better they have done. It's all in their attitude, which is rooted in their culture. Which probably explains much of the black anti-Semitism we see from the likes of Farakan...the Jews undercut the central doctrine of self pity and blame that powers much of African American politics, to their detriment.

Get a kid to assist you with some serious civics lesson because you're falling all over the place.

If the 1st black Republic .. Haiti was given auspices shown Israel, billions in Aid and worldwide goodwill from the start as Israel had gotten it would be an incredible place. And Israel was treated like Haiti was.. Israel would not exist today at all. Since you're short on cerebral gymnastics and long of racists beliefs I'll let you go one believing that people just create out of thin air and that outside forces have no dictating forces in shaping outcomes. Do you even know how Israel became a state? Or was this just too juicy of a race story to slam blacks that you could not bother get some facts .. you just had to get it out there. Do you treat all details as flimsy as you are here when making decisions

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 121):

Enjoy your life BN747, if that is possible with the weight of the world you are carrying

I do every day...the only weight I see is that maze that has you spun in the Fixed News talking points web. You appear to have no educated understanding of how anything ever occurred historically speaking...you just reach for conclusions as a child does for cereal boxes on a shelf and try to push it by as if that's all to it - done at the snap of a finger. Nothing works like that....scary stuff for a full grown adult.

[Edited 2013-07-21 20:44:36]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 124, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 123):
Honest question... answer this honestly, these below are just from one of single post... did you miss them our were just hunting out my replies?

You're deflecting. Of course SmittyOne shouldn't have made those personal attacks (whether in retaliation to your initial insults or not), but that doesn't justify your personal attacks against several undeserving members throughout the entire thread. I've seen members given temporary bans for similar behaviour in less contentious threads, so perhaps use this opportunity to bring some civility to your arguments.

When I was young, my mother often said "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

But moving on...

You didn't address my other point:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 122):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 120):
All self avowed racists are indeed right wingers.

To borrow one of your lines from Reply 110..."If you're going to level the charge at me.. substantiate the charge."

If you can please substantiate the charge that right wingers are racist, it would be much appreciated. Doing so without any personal attacks levied against me or other members would be an added benefit.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 125, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 124):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 123):

.

I sent you a pm answering the above as it does not pertain to the thread subject.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 124):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 122):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 120):
All self avowed racists are indeed right wingers.

To borrow one of your lines from Reply 110..."If you're going to level the charge at me.. substantiate the charge."

If you can please substantiate the charge that right wingers are racist, it would be much appreciated. Doing so without any personal attacks levied against me or other members would be an added benefit.

You have no history of attacking me so I see no reason to be anything but civil towards you.

But I also see you're young which means you may be lacking on America race history.. are you?

Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice
http://www.livescience.com/18132-int...ce-social-conservatism-racism.html

Study by a Canadian based org.

There are many articles on this google it and check it out.

But for people who lived it or saw rightwing activism up close ..
they saw it's very roots from the John Birch Society, familiar with it?
Historical Rightwing Leaders who sent signals down the ranks..

the John Lynch Letter
Strom Thurmond
Jesse Helms
George Wallace
Orval Faubus
David Duke

.. I can go on and on, if any of this is unfamiliar to you or how Rightwingers have fought against equality and minority rights is news to you, I can not answer your question in the correct manor because you have no foundation to begin with. The people I'm talking with have much more life experience/encounters and recognize some of this... I DON'T know exactly how much you know..but I'd start seeking out some history if I were you and really wanted to know more.

I guess me personally, I learned about all the above and much more as it occurred or visited the history and have tracked it's pathway leading to what it is today. And the conclusion is unmistakable. Everything has roots and rightwing politics is no exception.

BN747

[Edited 2013-07-21 21:56:20]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 126, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5378 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 125):
I sent you a pm answering the above as it does not pertain to the thread subject.

Received and replied.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 125):
You have no history of attacking me so I see no reason to be anything but civil towards you.

Much appreciated.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 125):
But I also see you're young which means you may be lacking on America race history.. are you?

I like to think I'm more well-read on American history in general than the typical non-American twenty-something. I've learned quite a bit from this forum alone during my time as a member.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 125):
Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice
http://www.livescience.com/18132-int...ce-social-conservatism-racism.html

Study by a Canadian based org.

There are many articles on this google it and check it out.

I'm familiar with that study actually. I believe it's been posted here before in other past related threads.

The link between prejudice and low IQ is a no-brainer (pun entirely intended    ), but there is one very important line to consider in the linked article: "Low-intelligence adults tend to gravitate toward socially conservative ideologies". That finding (with my added emphasis) provides an indirect link between racism and aligning oneself to the right wing. The progression we see is:

Low IQ --> Socially conservative values (predisposed to prejudice) --> Right wing

and not:

Low IQ --> Ring wing --> Socially conservative values (predisposed to prejudice)

That is to say that all socially conservative individuals may align themselves with a right wing political ideology, but not all those aligned with a right wing political ideology are socially conservative...myself being a perfect example of that. Maybe it's an American phenomenon that that happens, I can't say for sure, but personal experience dictates otherwise.

With that established, there may be a statistically significant correlation between persons harbouring prejudice and identifying as right wingers, but it's far from being an absolute. Therefore, the premise that "seriously hard Right diatribe" assumes racism is defeated.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 125):
they saw it's very roots from the John Birch Society, familiar with it?

I know what the JBS is, but I don't know enough of its history to comment on it.



Flying refined.