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Disgusting Behaviour From UAE  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4515 times:
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If there's any truth to this woman's side of the story, this judgement is beyond cruel.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-raped-Dubai-jailed-16-months.html

A Norwegian woman who claims to have been raped has been sentenced to 16 months in jail for sex outside of marriage. It's not the first time we've heard of this, as mentioned in the article.

Is it really true that a rapist in the UAE can only be found guilty if he either confesses, or the crime is witnessed by four adult males?!  Wow!


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
94 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4477 times:

"Under UAE law, rapists can only be convicted if either the perpetrator confesses or if four adult Muslim males witness the crime."

Wow



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17502 posts, RR: 45
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
"Under UAE law, rapists can only be convicted if either the perpetrator confesses or if four adult Muslim males witness the crime."

Who *wouldn't* want to vacation and move their business there?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4392 times:

No real surprise.
It has happened before, it will happen again

http://freethinker.co.uk/2013/05/13/...an-woman-after-she-was-gang-raped/


//Edit to remove sarcasm.


There is a real problem with the application of sharia law . There is also a real problem with trying to alter Sharia to deal with obvious discrepancies in the Quran's treatment of women

[Edited 2013-07-18 11:36:19]


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4374 times:
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Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
No real surprise.
It has happened before, it will happen again

The real surprise for me here is the claim about how only a confession or four adult male witnesses can lead to conviction. If true then it's not just wrong, it's utterly insane. Can anyone in the know confirm whether that's actually correct?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
only a confession or four adult male witnesses can lead to

It's not the only way. The perpetrator can confess.  



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
The real surprise for me here is the claim about how only a confession or four adult male witnesses can lead to conviction. If true then it's not just wrong, it's utterly insane. Can anyone in the know confirm whether that's actually correct?

For real. I mean think about it, three Muslim males saying a guy raped a girl is not even enough. 1000 non-Muslims could say the same thing and there wouldn't be enough proof. I think sometimes when a guy is accused of rape he's judged unfairly and it becomes a he-said-she-said but we'll believe her anyway, but that's for another thread. This is just absurd.

What do you think they were thinking when they came up with *4* Muslim males? I can see (though I disagree) with the male part or the Muslim part, but 4? WTF



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6205 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4349 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Who *wouldn't* want to vacation and move their business there?

Those that have a lot of money and forget that Dubai is not Las Vegas, plus too much Discovery Channel watching.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
The real surprise for me here is the claim about how only a confession or four adult male witnesses can lead to conviction. If true then it's not just wrong, it's utterly insane. Can anyone in the know confirm whether that's actually correct?

It´s actually correct. And I understand your outrage. But it´s nothing new. That´s the way it´s always been in those parts. Glitzy buildings, expensive hotels, insane indoors ski centers, and an airline that seems to be all mighty and all powerful aside, Dubai is still the UAE.

And as it been said. It has happened before, will happen again.

I wonder how the World Cup in Qatar will turn up with the huge amount of foreigners they are incapable right now of accommodating and with their equally archaic laws.

[Edited 2013-07-18 11:50:52]


MGGS
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6814 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

How cosmopolitan of them.

Yes, such a wonderfully advanced locale.

It's a shame Norway doesn't have an extradition treaty, but if I were a Norwegian official, I'd seriously question the jurisdiction of this.

If I had faith in the UN, I'd expect them to step in, but they won't. What a bassackwards place. Ah, more tolerance and reason from the followers of the most peaceful religion on earth.


User currently offlinePvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1260 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Just saw this in the news, UAE indeed seems to be a real rapists paradise, I wonder if Saudi Arabia and others in the region are just as insane?


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4344 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
For real. I mean think about it, three Muslim males saying a guy raped a girl is not even enough. 1000 non-Muslims could say the same thing and there wouldn't be enough proof. I think sometimes when a guy is accused of rape he's judged unfairly and it becomes a he-said-she-said but we'll believe her anyway, but that's for another thread. This is just absurd.

And another thing - what a great way to get rid of an enemy. Four of you get together and say you saw him rape someone who is also in on it, et voila - off with his head!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 5):

Dude, I wrote that.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4328 times:

One wonders - if four adult muslim men are witnessing a rape, wouldn't they do something to stop it? And if a man can abduct a woman and rape her in solitude, then he can basically any woman that he wants!

Unfortunately, these countries follow the sharia, and the law is in sharia so not much can be done to the rape victim. It is followed by many Islamic countries unfortunately.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5650 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
If there's any truth to this woman's side of the story, this judgement is beyond cruel.

Jailing women for having sex outside of marriage is beyond cruel.

Jailing someone for reporting a rape? I would not hesitate to kill any judge, jury member, or police officer that attempted such a thing. It is simply indefensible, and incompatible with human rights.


And I am in no way blaming the victim, but this is why (in any city) you don't accept drinks from strangers, and why you should do basic research before visiting anywhere.

Quoting slider (Reply 8):

It's a shame Norway doesn't have an extradition treaty, but if I were a Norwegian official, I'd seriously question the jurisdiction of this.

There's no question of jurisdiction. She was in Dubai and under the jurisdiction of their laws.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4295 times:
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Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 12):
And I am in no way blaming the victim, but this is why (in any city) you don't accept drinks from strangers, and why you should do basic research before visiting anywhere.

It's the sort of thing that guarantees no matter how many nice shopping centres they build, or how cheap their flights are, I will never set foot in that country, even in transit. You could be unlucky enough to be served a roll with poppy seeds on your flight and get some jail time that way too.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4289 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
Dude, I wrote that

oops my bad



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4288 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):

If there's any truth to this woman's side of the story, this judgement is beyond cruel.

Surprising but i agree with you 100%.

Quoting slider (Reply 8):
What a bassackwards place. Ah, more tolerance and reason from the followers of the most peaceful religion on earth.

Here you go with your usual comments you do not give up. it's becoming so boring.
This is there law, has nothing to do with religion.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 12):
I would not hesitate to kill any judge, jury member, or police officer that attempted such a thing. It is simply indefensible, and incompatible with human rights.

Agree again, but please don't do it in the UAE prisons there are not fun and if you commit murder you might loose your head.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 11):
Unfortunately, these countries follow the sharia, and the law is in sharia so not much can be done to the rape victim. It is followed by many Islamic countries unfortunately.

True in part but i could not find anything in Islam where you can base such a law concerning rape.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4268 times:
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Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 16):
Surprising but i agree with you 100%.

Doesn't surprise me at all.  



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4268 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 16):
This is there law, has nothing to do with religion.

So Sharia is based on what?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 16):
True in part but i could not find anything in Islam where you can base such a law concerning rape.

Apparently a bunch of Sharia judges have found it .

Bunch of examples out there . People are sentenced to death for adultery when the accuse rape and can't prove it. In the minds of the sharia, the women had sexual intercourse and cannot prove rape, so they must be guilty of a crime, and remember, the husband can't commit rape in Sharia.


http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_article.php?main_id=6157



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

As much as I sympathize with her plight she partially brought that upon herself... the prison sentence part.
It must have been a horrible experience to be raped but she should have known she is in a country where her standing as a female is by default and by definition unequal to that of males. Just because there are Starbucks and Gucci in Dubai does not mean the laws are any less draconian.
She should have consulted her situation with the consulate/embassy before being silly and running to the first police station, because everyone since the Ancient Rome era knows that Ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

Quoting slider (Reply 8):
If I had faith in the UN, I'd expect them to step in, but they won't.

"We will be very angry with you and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are..." http://youtu.be/UIPSvIz9NDs UN is good only for organizing yet another Durban Conference bitchfest.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 11):
It is followed by many Islamic countries unfortunately.

If only islamic... Wasn't there a judge in Germany not too long ago who took multiculturalism to another, even more bizarre level, who argued her(!!!) ruling in a civil case based on some twisted sharia principle because because parties involved were muslim?


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4203 times:
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Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
she partially brought that upon herself...

NO. If she got raped then absolutely NONE of this situation is her fault.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
She should have consulted her situation with the consulate/embassy before being silly and running to the first police station, because everyone since the Ancient Rome era knows that Ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

Right, because when you've been the victim of a rape in a foreign land you're thinking just soooo perfectly.   



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4187 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 22):
NO. If she got raped then absolutely NONE of this situation is her fault.

I am sure a good Sharia judge and Cleric would argue that she should have not been out unaccompanied by a male relative, and thus she is even more deserving of punishment



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6205 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3914 times:
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Quoting slider (Reply 13):
This story outrages me. It should outrage EVERYONE.

You are right in being outraged. But I think that more outrageous is the publicity a place like this receives. With all the glitz and glamour, people forget that breaking certain "laws" or being involved in traumatic and tragic circumstances have much much dire consequences than in other places.

When I used to work with people with substance abuse problems I inevitably ended up once in a while with traces of said substances in my clothes, my hair, my shoes even my body.

At least twice a year I had to travel to conferences around the world. Once they sent me a a ticket for someplace but on the return I had to transit through Dubai. I said NO WAY, I´m not spending a good chunk of my life in a UAE jail because someone at the airport found a seed of pot stuck in the bottom of my shoe. They refused to change it, I did not go.

All these things need to get out. People need to stop patronizing and spending their money in these countries where they will send a rape victim to jail while at the same time let a drug addicted, child molester live there for years no problem.

I can do without the indoors ski track, or flying C on Emirates.



MGGS
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3899 times:
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Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
Once they sent me a a ticket for someplace but on the return I had to transit through Dubai. I said NO WAY, I´m not spending a good chunk of my life in a UAE jail because someone at the airport found a seed of pot stuck in the bottom of my shoe. They refused to change it, I did not go.

Good choice mate. I wouldn't go there for love nor money. If they don't like the look of your face on arrival they could 'decide' to 'find' probably any drug you can think of.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
NO. If she got raped then absolutely NONE of this situation is her fault.

There is a difference between blaming someone and thinking they should have been more cautious. I think the whole "don't blame the victim" thing is a disservice. When girls go running at night and get raped, it's totally 0% their fault and they should be able to run at night. But it does no good to not warn against that. Same here, women should be able to go to the UAE and not get raped, but it a problem and we should warn females to be extra careful in the UAE even though they are not in the wrong

It's frustrating because we can't even have an honest debate or be able to warn girls. Whenever the rape subject comes up, I don't even bother offering advice like watch where you're drinks are, bring a friend, etc because people that do say that often get yelled at for "blaming the victim"

Again, I'm not even saying a tiny fraction of it was her fault



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3865 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
There is a difference between blaming someone and thinking they should have been more cautious

There is - and that is the crucial point. There's no excuse for rape, but clearly taking precautions to avoid it as with any crime is desirable where practical. I just don't think that words like 'liable' or 'blame' apply in a crime like that though.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
It's frustrating because we can't even have an honest debate or be able to warn girls. Whenever the rape subject comes up, I don't even bother offering advice like watch where you're drinks are, bring a friend, etc because people that do say that often get yelled at for "blaming the victim"

We absolutely can and indeed should have that debate, but please remember that the original comment from one poster that set me off on this particular tangent was "....she partially brought that upon herself". There is a big difference between educating about dangers and reducing risk, and suggesting some kind of fault on her part. Rest assured I would never be critical of raising awareness of risks and so on.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
Again, I'm not even saying a tiny fraction of it was her fault

I do get your point, and I'm grateful for your clarification.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
With all the glitz and glamour, people forget that breaking certain "laws" or being involved in traumatic and tragic circumstances have much much dire consequences than in other places.

Like I said before, the place is a wolf in sheep's clothing, and it doesn't surprise me that many people will go there believing the place to be totally fine.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3979 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 24):

I get what you are saying, sorry, a nerve of mine was hit  

When I read that same comment I perceived it differently so I think it all depends on one's perspective.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

Dubai is a perfect microcosm of the idiom 'lipstick on a pig'.

Too bad (not really) this didn't happen to an American. I know what i'd do if I were in power. Hey Emirates? You like landing here?

[Edited 2013-07-18 19:46:44]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3981 times:

This is not only outrageous but also disgusting. To convict a person who reports an offence without any attempt to verify facts would be problematic enough without the onerous burden of proof. It makes it almost impossible to convict any rapist.

That said, before everyone rushes off to boycott Dubai, forget not that in the West the idea that if a woman is raped that "she asked for it" still is widespread among the less enlightened. The courts require more than proof that sex took place and an allegation. While rare, there have been convictions for making false allegations of rape in the UK.
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/new...woman_jailed_for_false_rape_claim/
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/104..._behind_bars_for_false_rape_claim/

What makes the reported cases in Dubai so much worse is that the law is stacked against the woman to begin with. Although there is a presumption of innocence of the alleged rapist, as there is in the West, it is horrific that there is assumption that the complainant is guilty of something simply because she had sex outside marriage or was unaccompanied by a male relation.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 27):
The courts require more than proof that sex took place and an allegation.

Well isn't it "innocent until proven guilty?" I guess that would make it harder to prove rapes but at the same time, our justice system requires it...

[Edited 2013-07-18 21:30:40]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 24):
but please remember that the original comment from one poster that set me off on this particular tangent was "....she partially brought that upon herself". There is a big difference between educating about dangers and reducing risk, and suggesting some kind of fault on her part.

I don't see why you get so emotional about what I wrote earlier. There is big difference between emotionally jumping to conclusions and reading properly what you are responding to. All I said was that getting raped was of course none of her fault. However, she did not end up in jail because she was raped but because she reported the case to police in a country where the laws are so bizarre that

a) her mere status as woman is a disatvantage,
b) rape will be perceived as illegal extramarital sex instead and even criminal charges against HER brought based upon that,
c) burden of proof for this specific case is so stacked up against her that it defies any conventional logic and notion of justice

Therefore I see nothing outlandish about my claim that the latter part certainly was her fault (for the sake of political correctness and you not jumping all over me again I emphasize "fault to a degree"). She certainly was in control of that situation and should have sought outside advice before proceeding further.
It adds insult to injury and is against every principle of justice people are usually brought up with... to be victim of a crime and would not be able to have the authorities deal with because it means ending up behind bars yourself. However, if it meant 16 months of UAE jail I would probably choose to swallow tears and grind my teeth instead.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6205 posts, RR: 30
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3923 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 28):

Well isn't it "guilty until proven innocent?"

I suppose that is the basis of the common law system but it does not hold on the Napoleonic code based systems, which is what applies in most of the planet.

However, the point is moot since whatever system they have in the UAE "Sharia law" I suppose is plain barbarism and does not justify it being called a justice system.



MGGS
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

@ DeltaMD90 - Well isn't it "guilty until proven innocent?"

Not as far as the alleged victim of rape is concerned. The alleged rapist - the accused - is entitled to the assumption of innocence. It is up to the prosecution to prove that rape took place and that the accused is guilty as charged. This places a great burden on a victim of crime and is one reason why sometimes it is impossible to convict as all the jury has to go on, apart from any forensic evidence or witnesses, is one person's word against another's. This may make it feel as if the alleged victim is on trial but at least it lacks the inherent presumptions underlying the reported case in Dubai.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 31):

My bad, I wrote it backwards. I meant "innocent until proven guilty"

I was wondering where AyostoLeon was going with what he was saying, it sounded like he was implying that only someone's word should be enough to accuse someone of a crime



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

@ DeltaMD90
Far from it , although there has been plenty of debate in the legal fraternity and among feminists who have suggested that the burden of proof should be shifted. The arguments have ranged from the extreme personal nature of the offence differentiates it from crimes like fraud or theft, the trial forces a person who may have been raped to relive the events and strengthens the trauma, to the sometimes impossibility to convict in the absence of witnesses.

My initial point was that in the West generally the experience of women who have been raped is not one of complete sympathy. They are subjected to invasive medical examinations and intense questioning in which their backgrounds, past history and relationships are examined, both by the police investigating and by solicitors and baristers before and during any trial.

Sometimes a victim can suffer other penalties. While not being a punishment for rape, a school girl was expelled from school after she was raped. She was on a school trip and went out at night during which time she was raped. When she reported the rape the French school expelled her for "breaking the curfew", a matter they seemingly regard as more serious than her well-being. Perhaps the school sees her as being promiscuous and bringing the school into disrepute. Who knows, but it doesn't suggest compassion.
http://m.thelocal.fr//20130716/schoo...ls-rape-victim-for-breaking-curfew

[Edited 2013-07-18 22:06:34]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3875 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 33):

Ah I see. I'm not sure I'd want to shift the burden of proof although I think we may go about the recovery process a bit better. Often it is very mechanical without any compassion or sympathy



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 15):
Here you go with your usual comments you do not give up. it's becoming so boring.
This is there law, has nothing to do with religion.

Yes it does. It even specifies the religion of the witnesses.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 15):
True in part but i could not find anything in Islam where you can base such a law concerning rape.

They sure did, didn't they?

Look, you can be reasonable about Islam but right now you're totally missing it. Whether this is what Islam preaches is irrelevant. The fact is that this is the sort of behavior that Islam is used to justify, whether it actually justifies it or not. You seem disgusted by this. What are YOU going to do to stop it?


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3884 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
What are YOU going to do to stop it?

This is in the UAE nothing to do with me really, but i can only express myself here. Unfortunately.
Also as you said i am trying to defend Islam as a religion, but not some so called judges came up with few hundred years ago. As i said there is nothing in the Koran or Hadith that support such rules.

[Edited 2013-07-18 23:02:02]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4000 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3794 times:
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Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 33):
there has been plenty of debate in the legal fraternity and among feminists who have suggested that the burden of proof should be shifted.

There are plenty of critics who argue that the standard of proof has been effectively reversed in colleges and universities because they are under so much pressure from the federal government to tackle any report seriously, at the risk of losing their eligibility for financial aid.
In addition, the government has told colleges and universities that cross-examination of the victims should be discouraged and that the lowest standard of proof, "more likely than not", needed to be applied, as opposed to "beyond a reasonable doubt," the criminal court standard.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 33):
While not being a punishment for rape, a school girl was expelled from school after she was raped.

I think there is a bit of nuance missing from your narrative. The girl wasn't expelled because she reported being raped, in fact the school notified police as soon as she told them (two days later). She was expelled for breaking curfew, as was one of her fellow curfew-breaking classmates who did not report being raped.

On the one hand, the school couldn't reasonably be expected to punish one girl differently than the other for the same offense, especially in "égalité" France. On the other, expulsion for breaking curfew does seem harsh, it is almost as if the school is punishing them for putting themselves in a dangerous situation.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 20 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
Unfortunately.
Also as you said i am trying to defend Islam as a religion, but not some so called judges came up with few hundred years ago. As i said there is nothing in the Koran or Hadith that support such rules.

They claim there is. So who is the authority? You or them?

Fundamental problem with religion. The only "authority" seems stubbornly quiet.


User currently offlinesolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 20 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

She was an infidel christian that didn´t wear the coalsack and was tipsy after she and her girlfriends (with a male escort, wich is law in UAE) visited a restaurang and he dragged her in the hotelroom and raped her..
Read this in vg.no

//Mike  



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 3478 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
So who is the authority?

Doc if you want to believe those people go ahead, but i am sure that there is no such laws in the Koran or hadith.
Those laws are more tribal laws dating hundred of years back even before Islam ( where they used to bury new born girls so they do not bring shame to there families) and usually applied by a tribe old person with minimal knowledge. You can stick anything on Sharia depending how some people understand it wrong or right.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
The only "authority" seems stubbornly quiet

In that are in the world the unwritten laws is you never contradict the elderly and whatever law existed since ever is very difficult to challenge.
The new generation i notice are starting to revolt against such customs, with the introduction of the net etc... they are much more open minded.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
Doc if you want to believe those people go ahead, but i am sure that there is no such laws in the Koran or hadith.

Not on my read, either (I've read Q'uran, not Hadith).

But what you are saying is precisely the underpinning of why separation of church and state is so important. These political leaders have declared themselves to be the authorities on God's law. What they interpret as God's law is inviolable and incontrovertable. So there is no room for public input.

Until the Middle East learns that religion and public policy must stay separate, these tragic abuses of rights will continue.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 8 hours ago) and read 3282 times:
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On a better news 3 British subjects caught with drugs on them (last July) and sentenced to 4 years in prison were released today by a special pardon due to the holy month of Ramadan.


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 4 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 18):
As much as I sympathize with her plight she partially brought that upon herself... the prison sentence part.
It must have been a horrible experience to be raped but she should have known she is in a country where her standing as a female is by default and by definition unequal to that of males. Just because there are Starbucks and Gucci in Dubai does not mean the laws are any less draconian.
She should have consulted her situation with the consulate/embassy before being silly and running to the first police station, because everyone since the Ancient Rome era knows that Ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

  

Lesson to learn here for others who plan to go to countries where laws like this exist. You cant change them laws so better to stay out from there. It's like having sex with prostitute without condom,you can get std or not,it's a gamble.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 4 hours ago) and read 3193 times:
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Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 42):
On a better news 3 British subjects caught with drugs on them (last July) and sentenced to 4 years in prison were released today by a special pardon due to the holy month of Ramadan.

That's better news, you can carry, likely use, possibly traffic and get pardoned.. yet you can be attacked and raped by a throwback to the stone age and YOU are the guilty party??

It is high time the Middle East dragged itself out of the dark ages and joined the world.
Hiding behind.. it isn't written in the Quran is BS, the misogynist lackeys who administer the laws claim it is so stop trying to say it is not a problem with Islam.

As I have no intention of being party to such backward society I have advised Qantas that I will not be travelling to Europe with them..will have no effect and they won't care but I wonder how many such messages will make them care!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

This is a horrible thing for a young woman to be experiencing, absolutely, but it could have easily been avoided. She wasn't in any way responsible for the actions of the man who raped her, but she was responsible for assuming that she could safely do things the same way she does at home without any consequences.

The article also mentions charges for drinking alcohol. If she was at a bar, drinking and socialising with random people then she was asking for trouble. If she was drunk then she was begging for it.

People need to understand before they go somewhere like the UAE that it is different to home. Educate yourself, take the necessary precautions and you won't run into any problems. The same can be said of several African and Asian countries where things are done very differently to the western world.

I have been to Dubai several times and would have no qualms with returning again in future.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

@ stealthz "It is high time the Middle East dragged itself out of the dark ages and joined the world."

Which world would that be? The one that approves of extra-judicial killings? The one that allows arbitrary arrest and imprisonment without knowing what you are charged with or on what evidence? The one that outsources torture to some of those same Middle East countries so that they can claim that their own hands are clean? The one that lies about "children overboard", using xenophobia to win an election?

While the presumption that a woman is inferior and is a sinner if she goes out with a male who is not a relative or has sex outside of marriage (including being raped) is abhorrent to most, we should not run away with the notion of automatic superiority of any country. All have their faults, the greatest of which may be pretending to respect human rights but ignoring them when it is expedient.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 3161 times:
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Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 46):
The one that lies about "children overboard", using xenophobia to win an election?

Take your thread hijacking to a new thread and I will be happy to debate what should be done about Illegal immigrants posing as refugees!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 3140 times:
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Quoting qf002 (Reply 45):
but she was responsible for assuming that she could safely do things the same way she does at home without any consequences

Those that are saying the women are at fault for reporting the crime are in many ways just as backward and living in a different world as the Dubai courts and rapists.

Earlier this year an Australian woman was raped by 3 colleagues at the hotel she worked at, went to hospital for help and was promptly turned over to the police and was jailed.

Get off your high horses and fix this crap!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months ago) and read 3063 times:
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Quoting stealthz (Reply 48):
Those that are saying the women are at fault for reporting the crime are in many ways just as backward and living in a different world as the Dubai courts and rapists.

I think that's probably a bit harsh, as there is a big different between saying it's her fault and saying she might have prevented it, but I do think that when you get down to the nub of it there's just never an excuse for rape.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
Same here, women should be able to go to the UAE and not get raped, but it a problem and we should warn females to be extra careful in the UAE even though they are not in the wrong

LOL! U know that's sometimes harder than it is. The glitz of Dubai is an attraction for women here seeking a better career... Before we were married, i simply told my wife, "go and work there and the marriage is off...", for the simple reason of my concerns on legal process/burden of being raped etc. (gave her the same deal on Saudi Arabia too).

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
Whenever the rape subject comes up, I don't even bother offering advice like watch where you're drinks are, bring a friend, etc because people that do say that often get yelled at for "blaming the victim"

I know that feeling...  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
Yes it does. It even specifies the religion of the witnesses.

Our Sharia Law does not have those provisions (even the ones that do not get accepted into law)... it does vary from country to country, culture to culture. Sharia law, as SOBH151 says, is "whatever someone can come up with". The Sharia Law that applies where I am is restricted to family law, and even there, the Sharia statutes are often debated and contested by "I know better than anyone" elders... and a single Sharia statute, has been contested "in the name Sharia" more than once and with different arguments... each claiming they're the most correct. (Luckily our secular courts and Islamic family courts don't buy these arguments).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
What are YOU going to do to stop it?

Now that's the same question as, "if you're an American and don't agree to the death penalty, what are you going to do to stop it?"
It's a silly question/argument...

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
Those laws are more tribal laws dating hundred of years back even before Islam ( where they used to bury new born girls so they do not bring shame to there families) and usually applied by a tribe old person with minimal knowledge. You can stick anything on Sharia depending how some people understand it wrong or right.

LOL... too damn true. So many "old tribal laws" are now claimed to be backed by Sharia Law... but are un-Islamic.
The sad thing is, these "old tribal laws of other lands that have been claimed to be backed by Sharia Law" in certain countries, are being exported in the attempt of bringing other countries to follow suit. Sad...  
Quoting stealthz (Reply 44):
it isn't written in the Quran is BS, the misogynist lackeys who administer the laws claim it is so stop trying to say it is not a problem with Islam.

It's not a problem with Islam... it's a problem with how some people (including those with authority), abuse Islam and authority.



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 50):
Now that's the same question as, "if you're an American and don't agree to the death penalty, what are you going to do to stop it?"
It's a silly question/argument...

I'm an American who doesn't believe in a lot of my country's actions. I vote accordingly.

I'm also actively considering a different country.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3006 times:
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Quoting stealthz (Reply 44):
it isn't written in the Quran is BS, the misogynist lackeys who administer the laws claim it is so stop trying to say it is not a problem with Islam.

I said it is not, Mandala499 said the same, but you say it does, prove it.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 50):
LOL... too damn true. So many "old tribal laws" are now claimed to be backed by Sharia Law... but are un-Islamic.
The sad thing is, these "old tribal laws of other lands that have been claimed to be backed by Sharia Law" in certain countries, are being exported in the attempt of bringing other countries to follow suit. Sad...  

  

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
I'm also actively considering a different country.

You do have that luxury to do that, age wise, at 63 i don't.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 50):

It's not a problem with Islam... it's a problem with how some people (including those with authority), abuse Islam and authority.

Correct 100%



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6205 posts, RR: 30
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2927 times:
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She´s been sentenced to 16 months in jail for having extramarital sex, false testimony and alcohol consumption.
Previously an Australian woman got 11 months for same, after denouncing a rape, and an English woman got a year for same.

By the way, the rapist got 13 months.

And people still go. Amazing.



MGGS
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 53):
She´s been sentenced to 16 months in jail for having extramarital sex, false testimony and alcohol consumption.
Previously an Australian woman got 11 months for same, after denouncing a rape, and an English woman got a year for same.

By the way, the rapist got 13 months.

And people still go. Amazing.

Your point ?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2838 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 50):
Our Sharia Law does not have those provisions (even the ones that do not get accepted into law)... it does vary from country to country, culture to culture. Sharia law, as SOBH151 says, is "whatever someone can come up with".

You cannot tell me that Sharia law has nothing to do with Islam. It simply is not true. It may not have anything to do with what YOU personally think Islam is, but it is related to one thing and one thing only: Islam.

This is no different than Christians saying that folks like WBC aren't Christians. Who has the authority to say who is and who isn't a Christian? Or a Muslim?


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2832 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
You cannot tell me that Sharia law has nothing to do with Islam.

Wrong, Sharia laws are what some people few hundred years ago thought they inspired it from Islam mixed with the tribe laws that existed at the time.Some of the Sharia goes perfectly with Islam others don't.
As a Muslim i go back to the Koran and as i said before and i challenge people to prove me wrong is that concerning the case we are discussing, there is nothing in the Koran that shows that such punishment is the norm or called for.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2831 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
Wrong,

So you are telling me that Sharia and Islam have no connection. Whatsoever. It's just pure statistical coincidence that it only is seen in Muslim countries and nowhere else.

That statement is either a lie or a delusion. I'm still trying to figure out which.

sharia. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sharia (accessed: July 20, 2013).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

Sharia is defined as "the moral code and religious law of Islam."

If you want to use your own personal definitions of Islam and Sharia, that's fine. You can also call a tiger a "rose," but that doesn't change anything. A tiger is still a tiger and Sharia is still Islamic law and not any other religion's law.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2827 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 57):
Sharia is defined as "the moral code and religious law of Islam.

According to whom ???? Who sat there and wrote those laws? Again find me in Islam where it says that a woman who is raped should be jailed.   



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6205 posts, RR: 30
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2815 times:
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Quoting Mortyman (Reply 54):
Your point ?

If you read the thread from the beginning, you may get if. If you´ve already done so, I can´t help you.



MGGS
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

@DocLightning. Of course Sharia is linked to Islam, but that is different to claiming that decisions made by judges are the same as Sharia or consistent with it. Take the oft repeated but unsourced claim that to prove rape there is a requirement that there be four adult male muslim sitnesses. Nowhere is this stated in the Qur'an and I have not seen any reference to it in Hadith.

In fact the number four for witnesses for sexual matters only occurs in connection with an accusation levied against a woman of adultery. The same passage provides that a man who falsely accuses the woman should receive 80 lashes and his future testimony be disgarded as unreliable.

Cetainly the prophet did not view that a victim of rape should be punished. Cited by Abu Dawud, when a woman reported that she had been raped and the rapist apprehended, when he confessed the prophet said to the woman, fear not, Allah has forgiven you while he ordered the man to be put to death by stoning.

Are judgements made today necessarily consistent with the views of the prophet and indeed need they be? Like other systems of law Sharia has evolved over time and this means that you will see different outcomes arising from different events over time and place. It is not as rigid as is often imagined.

A separate issue: a common theme of many of the claims reported in the media is that people are held for lenghty periods, allegedly tortured and made to sign confessions in Arabic. While UAE legislation governing criminal procedure specifies that the language used is Arabic, the same legislation also states that a person is entitled to legal advice and if they can't afford it there should be a Court appointed and paid advisor. Further, the same law states that where an accused is a foreigner who does not understand Arabic an interpreter must be provided. While there are differences between the diverse Emirates, the federal law prevails to the extent of any inconsistency. If the reported claims are true, then it is a concern that investigating officials and prosecuters are failing to abide by the law.

[Edited 2013-07-20 17:22:27]

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2782 times:
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Quoting Mortyman (Reply 54):
Your point ?

Quite obviously, his point was that it's amazing anyone still goes there given the fact that this bullshit keeps happening.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 58):
According to whom ????

Dictionary.com, Webster, Random House, etc.

That is the very definition of Sharia.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 58):
Again find me in Islam where it says that a woman who is raped should be jailed.

It says so in the Islam as proclaimed by the Powers That Be in the UAE, who have every bit as much right to call themselves Muslim as you do. I've read Q'uranic justifications in both directions by supposed "muslim scholars." You should see how Christians argue about the Bible saying all sorts of things. Like alcohol is illegal, or being gay is fine...or being gay is wrong. The same can be done with the Q'uran.

See, a religion is what its followers say it is. You call yourself a Muslim, but you don't do everything in the Q'uran, do you? You, like they, pick and choose. And if a set of followers in power want to use that religion to prosecute women who were raped, then that is what the religion is. And you can't do anything about it.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2748 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 62):
It says so in the Islam as proclaimed by the Powers That Be in the UAE

With all due respect to them they are neither the Koran nor the prophet, this is just there interpretation based on very old laws some of them date before Islam and even Christianity.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 62):
I've read Q'uranic justifications in both directions by supposed "muslim scholars.

You mean you read the different scholars interpretation of the Koran, the Koran does not justify himself it explains.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 62):
You call yourself a Muslim, but you don't do everything in the Q'uran, do you?

Islam is based on 5 pillars
Beleiving in one God at that Mohammed is his prophet
Fasting Ramadan
Praying your 5 daily prayers
Hajj if you can
And Zakkat.

I don't have to beleive in scholars or what they say, God gave me brains to know what is right and what is wrong, also how i treat other people and the usual not steal etc...Otherwise i will be joining those idiots who follow those criminals calling for jihad right and left.
One last thing, i do not accept anybody judging me on my beliefs this is a matter between God and myself, Doc this has nothing to do with this discussion so please don't take it personal.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 62):
And if a set of followers in power want to use that religion to prosecute women who were raped

But are they really doing the proper thing, not in my opinion.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 62):
And you can't do anything about it.

At least i am discussing it here, you see none of us can do anything to that poor woman except express our feelings.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5600 posts, RR: 8
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 60):
Cetainly the prophet did not view that a victim of rape should be punished. Cited by Abu Dawud, when a woman reported that she had been raped and the rapist apprehended, when he confessed the prophet said to the woman, fear not, Allah has forgiven you while he ordered the man to be put to death by stoning.

To me though, the problem with this is that there was a need for the man to confess first. Whether anyone, any man, confesses, if she was raped, if she states shes was even without any confirmation from a male, then she should be "forgiven" (and if she is lying then she will be judged by God regardless of what people think).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 65, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2716 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 62):

You are mistaken. UAE law does not, I repeat not stipulate that a person who is raped must be punished. UAE federal law under the Penal Code, Article 354 states that a man who rapes a woman or who with coercion commits sodomy with a male shall be sentenced to death. Nowhere does the Penal Code specify a punishment for the victim of rape. You can check out the relevent law at the UAE Ministry of Justice eLegislation portal. Whether or not one agrees or disagrees with draconian, by Western standards, punishments is another matter but the facts about the law are available online for all to read.

In Dubai, and in other Emirates, it is an offence to have sex outside of marriage whether you are a man or a woman. For that the law does impose punishments, but it does recognise coercion as a defence. The problem with the reported cases is that rape was not proven and that alleged victims signed documents that they claim to have not understood. In reporting of allegations of rape in the UAE Western media appears to take the view that if a woman claims to have been raped she must be telling the truth. Yet when it comes to rape in western countries we see an insistance that the accused has the right to the presumption of innocence.

One thing that is missing in all the reporting is any quotes from the transcipts of court documents. We see the oft repeated claim about needing four witnesses to prove rape, yet no documentation of the case is presented. This is odd when one considers that judges are required to write their reasons for forming a particular judgment, just as they are in the West. While I do not suggest that any of the claims made in the press are false, and if true the events are outrageous and disgusting, I do wonder why so many are ready to accept them as true when they would doubt reports in the same press if covering local events.

[Edited 2013-07-20 23:00:01]

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5650 posts, RR: 6
Reply 66, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 63):
this is just there interpretation

Which is the whole issue with using religious texts written over hundreds (if not thousands) of years, based on oral traditions that go back even further, as the end-all be-all of law.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 65):
In reporting of allegations of rape in the UAE Western media appears to take the view that if a woman claims to have been raped she must be telling the truth. Yet when it comes to rape in western countries we see an insistance that the accused has the right to the presumption of innocence.

Western media does not extend a "presumption of innocence" against the alleged rapist... look at the Strauss-Kahn affair, or the Duke Lacrosse scandal, or even some of the replies in the Zimmerman thread about a cousin who alleges he molested her for 10 years.

The legal system, however, does extend that presumption, and it is something we should be proud of.

What we don't do, or endorse, is the imprisonment of women for reporting a rape, unless the report is clearly false... which means there has to be some sort of positive evidence that the rape never took place.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 67, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

@ Maverick "The legal system, however, does extend that presumption, and it is something we should be proud of.

"What we don't do, or endorse, is the imprisonment of women for reporting a rape, unless the report is clearly false."

I view that I fully share. I am not wishing to endorse Sharia or its application. I have in another thread stated that I believe in a separation of state and religion with religious beliefs being a matter between man and his God, whichever faith he might follow.

But it does appear that many people have a false idea about how Sharia applies in particular countries. We have seen in this thread claims made that are clearly not in accordance with the published laws of the UAE. The law in the UAE is complex because it is made up of different traditions, with each Emirate having its own local laws, federal laws and the increasing need to modernise the laws in the face of changed conditions.

And this is the other aspect of Sharia: it has evolved over time. Although initially based on the Qur'an as the primary source and drawing on Sunnah and Hadith as secondary sources, historically there have been several schools of law. Case law has been recorded, codified and been considered when making decisions in a way similar (but not identical) to the way Common Law was built up and applied in countries like the UK. Today in the UAE there is the combination of that "Common Law" and of Statute Laws where increasingly "Common Law" is confined to the area of morality and Statute Law increasingly cover areas such as property rights, labour relations, company law, criminal law and procedure...

But I had better end before this becomes a book  


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

The woman has now been Summoned to the state Prosecutor tomorrow. We'll will have to se how that turns out ...

User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 69, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2469 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 60):
Cetainly the prophet did not view that a victim of rape should be punished. Cited by Abu Dawud, when a woman reported that she had been raped and the rapist apprehended, when he confessed the prophet said to the woman, fear not, Allah has forgiven you while he ordered the man to be put to death by stoning.

The same is cited by Tirmidhi.

There's another case in Islamic jurisprudence, where Umar the Caliph had his son accused of raping a woman, and she brought the infant as a result of the rape, to the mosque and publicly spoke on what happened. Umar asked his son, who confessed, and his son was punished there and then, and no punishment was given to the woman.

Sorry, the argument that it is Islamic for this Norwegian woman to be imprisoned after being raped because she reported the case, and therefore had to be punished for having sex outside marriage, is totally silly.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 65):
You are mistaken. UAE law does not, I repeat not stipulate that a person who is raped must be punished. UAE federal law under the Penal Code, Article 354 states that a man who rapes a woman or who with coercion commits sodomy with a male shall be sentenced to death. Nowhere does the Penal Code specify a punishment for the victim of rape. You can check out the relevent law at the UAE Ministry of Justice eLegislation portal. Whether or not one agrees or disagrees with draconian, by Western standards, punishments is another matter but the facts about the law are available online for all to read.

Now if the police who threw her into prison was not a local, but is/are "imported" (like in some other gulf countries whose police is largely made of foreigners), then the question becomes, is the guy who threw her into prison come from another country whose "Islamic Law" includes "punish the woman for whatever you can think of"... (and yes, that kind of thinking and using religion as justification, does exist in some countries   )... if yes... I guess this is another case of law enforcement abuse by foreigners against foreigners... for which this ain't the first and won't be the last time...

And Doc, sorry, under Islamic law, rape does not count as consensual adultery (zina). I am sure UAE law also stipulate that it does not amount to consensual adultery too... and as far as I know, UAE penal codes/statutes are Sharia based and Sharia compliant.

Now if the woman is telling the truth and the police slammed her into prison for consensual adultery, then we're not looking at a Sharia law slamming the woman into prison, but we're looking at police abuse/ignorance/whatever...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 62):
And if a set of followers in power want to use that religion to prosecute women who were raped, then that is what the religion is. And you can't do anything about it.

So, if you're a Christian... abort the rape child, or not abort the rape child?

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 67):
But it does appear that many people have a false idea about how Sharia applies in particular countries.

Yes, and unfortunately, they see any Islamic country as the same... "it's Muslim, therefore it has Sharia"... heck, Sharia can and do differ from country to country... And then they blame us for the acts of those who profess the same religion as us and prefer to live in the stone age, export those ideas, and coerce others who don't agree with them? Blame us for it? Geez... It's like us blaming the Christian world for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church... or even worse... blaming the rest of the Christian world for the actions of several Christian hate groups in my part of the world... heck, they probably never heard of these groups... yeah, let's blame them, coz they blame us for blablabla...

Not serious... but you get how silly it becomes...   

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 63):
One last thing, i do not accept anybody judging me on my beliefs this is a matter between God and myself, Doc this has nothing to do with this discussion so please don't take it personal.

Right on!



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 70, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2459 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
"Under UAE law, rapists can only be convicted if either the perpetrator confesses or if four adult Muslim males witness the crime."

That is absolutely disgusting.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5650 posts, RR: 6
Reply 71, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2442 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 60):
when he confessed
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 69):
Umar asked his son, who confessed

Perhaps we can have examples, even in the absence of a confession (or even a conviction), where the woman who claimed to have been raped was not punished?

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 69):

And Doc, sorry, under Islamic law, rape does not count as consensual adultery (zina). I am sure UAE law also stipulate that it does not amount to consensual adultery too... and as far as I know, UAE penal codes/statutes are Sharia based and Sharia compliant.

Not if she was arrested and charged.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 69):
then we're not looking at a Sharia law slamming the woman into prison

Yes, we are. Sharia law, by SOBHI51's admission, is very much subject to the whims of whatever ruler is presiding, whether that be the individual judge or up to an Emir.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 72, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2410 times:
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Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 71):
Sharia law, by SOBHI51's admission, is very much subject to the whims of whatever ruler is presiding, whether that be the individual judge or up to an Emir.

That is not what i said, please read back.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 73, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2370 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 65):
In Dubai, and in other Emirates, it is an offence to have sex outside of marriage whether you are a man or a woman. For that the law does impose punishments, but it does recognise coercion as a defence. The problem with the reported cases is that rape was not proven and that alleged victims signed documents that they claim to have not understood.

The idea that a woman reporting rape is guilty of sex outside of marriage until proven innocent is repugnant. And that seems to be the legal presumption in Dubai, whether it is written policy or not. Yet at the same time, prostitution seems to be all but openly tolerated.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 67):
We have seen in this thread claims made that are clearly not in accordance with the published laws of the UAE.

The behavior is what counts, not the published law.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 74, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 70):

The statement has been demonstrated to be false. It is not the law that there be four adult muslim males to prove rape. See the earlier response regarding the actual laws of the UAE which can be accessed through the eLegislation portal of the Ministry of Justice.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 73):

The law is important and that is what has been criticised so far, not simply one instance of alleged rape. Outrage has been expressed at the law, without understanding what the law actually is. The behaviour as reported in the media, if true, is disgusting. Yet do we criticise all of US law if a policeman in Chicago beats up at person just because he can? It would seem that there may be instances of injustice in the administration - ie procedure - not necessarily in the law itself. Such instances of the abuse of the law should be addressed and rectified, without question.

How common are such instances? Do such things occur on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? How many visitors does Dubai and the rest of the UAE receive each year? How many are victims of crime and are jailed for it? The overwhelming majority of visiters and foreign residents do not end up in jail for something they haven't done. One instance is too many but such instances , if media reports are to be believed, are extremely rare. This does not lessen the horror of such things happening but it hardly warrants a call to boycott the UAE anymore than people wrongly ending up on death row in the US does. And no one can say that that hasn't happened. Should we therefore conclude that the whole of US law stinks? Far from it.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 75, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 74):
Yet do we criticise all of US law if a policeman in Chicago beats up at person just because he can?

I am not criticizing all of UAE law. I am criticizing religious law as applied to basic justice. Especially Sharia as defined by the UAE.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 76, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2296 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 75):

That's fair enough Doc and I appreciate it. But not everyone makes the same distnction as we have seen.

A law may be fully compliant with Sharia yet that does not necessarily make a law bad. Under both Sharia and Western laws murder is haram/ a crime, although there may be different legal defintions on what constitutes murder. The starting point might not even be all that different. Sharia regards murder as a violation of the sanctity of life that is created by Allah. In the West similar arguments were used in the past while today abstract notions of human rights might be used.

The effect is the same, although I recognise that when it comes to rape there is a major difference in that a woman will not be jailed for consensual sex if she can not prove rape. But it is still incumbent on the "victim" to prove that it was indeed rape.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 77, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 75):
I am not criticizing all of UAE law. I am criticizing religious law as applied to basic justice. Especially Sharia as defined by the UAE.

What you should be criticizing is how law enforcement is abusing their position whilst using its own version (and therefore wrong) of the (official) law, be it religious or not.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 74):
This does not lessen the horror of such things happening but it hardly warrants a call to boycott the UAE

Well, religious opinions and biases aside... we as responsible aviation enthusiasts should use this as an excuse to boycott Emirates for being too big and Etihad for... well... being Etihad...   



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2224 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 18):
Wasn't there a judge in Germany not too long ago who took multiculturalism to another, even more bizarre level, who argued her(!!!) ruling in a civil case based on some twisted sharia principle because because parties involved were muslim?

It's called arbitration. It happens fairly often, even in others religious communities. And both parties have to agree to the arbitration being based on their particular religious laws and customs.


User currently offlineHywel From Uganda, joined Apr 2008, 802 posts, RR: 3
Reply 79, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

Quote:
"Under UAE law, rapists can only be convicted if either the perpetrator confesses or if four adult Muslim males witness the crime."

Great. So if a man rapes a girl with 3 of his friends watching, and he denies it, it's ok. But if 4 of his friends watch it and later confess, he's finally punished.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 80, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting Hywel (Reply 79):

People keep making this claim but it has no basis in fact. Just because something is published in the media it does not make it true, especially if the editors are simply cutting and pasting from another media outlet that hadn't bothered to check.

See replies #60 and #65 above.

The Criminal Procedure law of the UAE does not stipulate either the number of witnesses, whether they are male or female, or whether they are Muslim.


User currently onlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 11
Reply 81, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

Breaking news is that the woman in question has been pardoned and is now free to leave

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23404042

Good news after all she has been through.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10895 posts, RR: 37
Reply 82, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 81):
Good news after all she has been through.

Shame on the Sheikhs.
Such ugly laws they have. One can "do as the Romans do while in Rome" I agree but for a country that says they are ahead of the 21st Century in everything, this sort of proceeding is extreme and retarded.


 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 83, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 81):
Good news

Indeed it is although she will wear the emotional scars for years to come.

The sad thing is that though she has been pardoned, the conviction still stands. A pardon is not an acquittal but an act of clemency that basically says the person is forgiven and is free to go. In the case of the UAE "free to go" possibly means being deported, the normal outcome once a foreigner has served a sentence. Not that I can imagine her wishing to stay, but is would be better if she had no record of being persona non grata.


User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2097 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 81):
Breaking news is that the woman in question has been pardoned and is now free to leave

They let her go because this was about to turn into a full blown international incident that would have damaged relations between the 2 countries. If this had happened to a domestic servant from some developing nation would anyone have aggressively lobbied for her release ?



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 85, posted (1 year 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2092 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 84):
If this had happened to a domestic servant from some developing nation would anyone have aggressively lobbied for her release ?

yes, there are cases like that. High ranking members of ruling families have been accused in Switzerland for instance and IIRC it was not only from ibya.

Such servants stand a good chance if they manage to contact police while in western Europe. And one can only encourage that.

.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 84):
They let her go because this was about to turn into a full blown international incident that

The story has hit the news worldwide already, the damage is done and that is good. If the UAE want to be that open minded country they have to do away with such BS laws or they have to face a lesser occupancy rate of their posh hotels. . Many couples in the west are not married and holiday in the UAE which means they are with one foot in prison.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2027 times:

The rapist also got pardoned ...

In Norwegian:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/07/22/n...rte_deborah_dalelv/dubai/28312996/


Anyway, the Emir himself pardoned the woman, wich is unusual ...

[Edited 2013-07-22 07:47:56]

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 87, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2030 times:
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Quoting Mortyman (Reply 86):
The rapist also got pardoned ...

Great, there's the icing on the cake we've all been waiting for.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

According to the Norwegian Foreign minister, the woman in question is allowed to leave Dubai, but also to stay there if she wants. She will not and is not deported, wich is the usual scenario when a pardon is given.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10112307


User currently onlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1084 posts, RR: 3
Reply 89, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

As a frequent traveller to UAE and a big fan, I can say there are two things you really want to avoid. One is Islamic law and the other is any perceived transgression against a member of the Royal family. This is known to most people and it can turn from paradise to 3rd world very quickly. As an American, you re usually well protected and the embassies are aware of basically every arrest of a foreign national. If you are not from the US watch out. Other western nations are much less able to muscle local governments into releasing citizens. Even Canada and the UK have had difficulty retrieving citizens over debts for example. You may not leave the country if you owe money.

The 4 Muslim witnesses is based in Islamic law and applies to more than rape. If her attacker was a non Muslim, the rule would not apply. Yes it is backwards. It's an impossible burden of proof.

Part of the reason it's a high burden of proof is that the punishment is severe. Death in some Islamic countries for a convicted rapist.

UAE is by far and away the best place in the Middle East. It is not quite there yet though. It's a work in progress and its a monarchy. In time I am sure they will adjust laws for the modern world but culturally they are not yet ready.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 90):
Other western nations are much less able to muscle local governments into releasing citizens.

That is because they care about multi billion dollar contracts. In this case social media pressure led to release, otherwise Norway would have done anything to ruffle feathers.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 91):
social media

and a very active, but diplomatic and personally involved Norwegian Foreign minister and Foreign affairs Department. In a worse case scenario, Norway would have chosen a very different approach.

[Edited 2013-07-22 10:36:45]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 92, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 81):
Breaking news is that the woman in question has been pardoned and is now free to leave

I'm glad she has been "pardoned" but she should have never been charged in the first place. I kind of wish this got dragged out and made a huge international incident so we may see this clearly backwards law replaced, but that would be at the expense of her and I think she's already been through enough



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1854 times:

Ok lets try this again. This link provides more information about the subject of rape and also includes other links discussing it.

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...34308461-whats-islam-law-rape.html


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 92):
I'm glad she has been "pardoned" but she should have never been charged in the first place. I kind of wish this got dragged out and made a huge international incident so we may see this clearly backwards law replaced, but that would be at the expense of her and I think she's already been through enough

There will be a next time. The pardon was passed down by the ruler. It did nothing to change the rules and laws that the Sharia judges used to pass judgement. Remember Sex outside of marriage is illegal in the UAE.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
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