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Detroit Files For Bankruptcy  
User currently onlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 495 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

Just announced on the BBC, that Detroit is going to file for Chapter 9 Bankruptcy.

The city is estimated to have debts of $15bn or £10bn

Some Detroit Facts (courtesy of the BBC)

Population has shrunk from a peak of 2 million in the 1950s to 713,000 today

Highest violent crime rate of any major US city, with 15,245 reported incidents in 2011

Some 78,000 abandoned and blighted buildings

40% of street lights do not work

Only a third of the city's ambulances are in service

Just 53% of owners paid their 2011 property taxes


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23369573


Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
184 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1888 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4641 times:

Good for Michigan, Metro Detroit and citizens of City of Detroit. Bad for City Workers. With $1 Billion revenue per year, there is no way to pay off $15 Billion debt.

User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3010 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4526 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
Good for Michigan, Metro Detroit and citizens of City of Detroit

A clean slate would be a good place to start. There was some success in the downtown rehab.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
Bad for City Workers.

The Unions did not want to negotiate wages and pensions, many of the creditors were not to excited about taking a 90+% loss and will take their chances with bankruptcy. The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

Okie


User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4992 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

And let's not forget the corruption in city hall that started in the early 70's. That didn't help either.


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Thread starter):
Some 78,000 abandoned and blighted buildings

There is a website of two photographers showing the ruins of Detroit. It looks like a city hit by war. This is quite frightening.

http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/index.html



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4405 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
A clean slate would be a good place to start. There was some success in the downtown rehab.

Any chance that portions of Detroit will be sold off to form smaller municipalities? Boston, Manhattan, and San Francisco could be contained within the city limits of Detroit. Only Boston is smaller in population than Detroit.

For my two cents, this just the worst example of a problem sown with a mindset born after WW2: People thinking that they can buy themselves lifetime security with pensions paid for by their children, never stopping to think that economies are fluid and all it would really take to shot that model to pieces was a few countries willing to copy the US industrial model. Brilliant. You then have a generation of people raised to think they're the center of the universe, with a divine right to be masters of it.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4392 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 4):
There is a website of two photographers showing the ruins of Detroit. It looks like a city hit by war. This is quite frightening.

Except that half those buildings have been restored or are going through restoration. The other half other than the old Packard plant are already gone or will be razed or restored

The second picture today

http://brodericktower.com/

The building in the third picture is under restoration

forth and fifth pictures see the Broderick

The sixth picture under full restoration

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...ation-hotel-detroit_n_2970968.html

There's even a new plan to restore the old Packard plant

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130717/METRO01/307170043

[Edited 2013-07-18 19:34:17]

[Edited 2013-07-18 19:35:35]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4376 times:

I didn't even know a city could just file for bankruptcy. Sad how mismanaged the city must be


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19575 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Well, as a SE-MI-born and raised expat, I'm not surprised. That's part of why I got out as soon as I hit adulthood. It was obvious to me that the city had put all its eggs in the auto industry and when that industry left Detroit, there was nothing left. Michigan's horrible legislature will not help attract new businesses to the Detroit Metro Area, either.

Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

Which is something I support. Individuals who worked long and hard for their pensions should get them and they should have priority over corporate creditors whose very day-to-day food bill isn't at risk.


User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4353 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 6):
Except that half those buildings have been restored or are going through restoration

My bad. Maybe the website is a bit old.

I'm glad to see some buildings are under restoration. There are some beautiful buildings and it was sad to see them in that state.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1588 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4344 times:

I really like Detroit, this is a new chapter in the cities history. I want to see it do well and turn it all around and hopefully this is a step in the right direction.


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

You ever heard of Dan Gilbert Doc? The man has bought 30 major buildings in the last two years , has just purchased the Greektown Casino and is looking to add more to his portfolio. And all of the space he's buying is pretty much spoken for. Mike illich just announced this http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130619/BIZ/306190075 Then we have to new light rail
http://www.freep.com/article/2013042...1-Rail-streetcar-Detroit-Woodward. Just because it's bankrupt doesn't mean it's dead. In fact there is more happening downtown now than in the last thirty years. Here's what Dans got planned for Detroit http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...r-detroit-that-includes-districts#

[Edited 2013-07-18 20:10:09]

[Edited 2013-07-18 20:22:54]

User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3010 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4338 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Which is something I support. Individuals who worked long and hard for their pensions should get them and they should have priority over corporate creditors whose very day-to-day food bill isn't at risk.

Good emotional try Doc but I think you will find that there are people who invested their lifetime of work and saving for personal retirement into the city's bonds as well.
Why should they get a haircut on their investments?

Okie


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8226 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

It's easy enough for all sides to blame others, but now we are moving towards a point where we need to define how the city starts over in terms of rebuilding.

Detroit is going to have to leverage their property based assets and the 47% who don't pay property taxes need to catch up very quickly, or have their property taken to sheriff's auctions, with taxes owed as the starting bid. It's important too understand that a Bankruptcy Court will be in charge, with political leverage being wiped out in the property tax games.

Reality is that there are going to be debt holders who are taking a bath in the near future. To ease the pain, deliver properties to them with 5 years of tax exemption. If they develop the property then give them another 5 years of exemptions. Detroit needs the Build, Baby, Build approach to recovery, and they need to reward private developers who get in fast.

Interest rates are low right now so it is a good time for investments in infrastructure development, or maintenance of old infrastructures. That delivers jobs and that is what Detroit needs, and needs fast.

The other issue that needs to be addressed is how to minimize subsequent bankruptcies. You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions. The lucky ones will have paid off their houses and can keep them when they file. The others will simply push the city down even more. There had better be a lot of fear in terms of those pensions.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4280 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 9):
I'm glad to see some buildings are under restoration. There are some beautiful buildings and it was sad to see them in that state.

Thanks. Those of us that have invested our lives here couldn't be happier to see the revival of the City of Detroit finally taking place. Here's one of my personal favarites that's undergoing restoration now and will be finished by next spring
http://gardetroit.org/


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4269 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
The other issue that needs to be addressed is how to minimize subsequent bankruptcies. You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions. The lucky ones will have paid off their houses and can keep them when they file. The others will simply push the city down even more.

Most of the pensioners don't live in the city anymore and more than half of those don't live in Michigan, so that part will have minimal impact on the city.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Detroit is going to have to leverage their property based assets and the 47% who don't pay property taxes need to catch up very quickly, or have their property taken to sheriff's auctions

The Sheriff wouldn't even want most of those properties. People paying 5000 in taxes a year on a house that's worth 2500 and I think you see where the problem lies


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

It most likely will. There is still the infrastructure there for a city. Somebody just has to use it. Sooner or later the cost will be too good to pass up. Apparently others have said it has started to occur in the downtown of Detroit.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3010 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Detroit needs the Build, Baby, Build approach to recovery, and they need to reward private developers who get in fast

They are starting to see the rewards of the process of rebuilding downtown with private developers. GM says they are in Detroit to stay. Things are really starting to look up in Detroit. They just owe $15B that they can not pay nor have a tax base to pay it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions.

Their pensions have not been dissolved or gutted the city has been delinquent on properly funding the pension system. There is money there, just not the full amount. (They may have to retire on 75% pay instead of 90%)
The unions were offered a chance to take partial payment in a settlement for the money owed and basically putting them on equal footing with secured creditors. The unions turned that option down to be on equal statis with secured creditors and will be put on the unsecured debtors list. The unions have chosen that position so they can petition the Obama administration to put them ahead of the secured creditors.


Okie


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4174 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 9):
My bad. Maybe the website is a bit old.

In the introductory text, the authors say: "This work is thus the result of a five-year collaboration started in 2005."

The related book was published in 2010. In three years a lot can happen and it's good to see things are starting to look up at Motown.



KEEP LOOKING UP as in Space Fan News
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7474 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4134 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

If this happens you can expect lawsuits left and right. These unions, by not cooperating, really helped to tear this city down. Maybe the below had something to do with it too.....

Quoting type-rated (Reply 3):
And let's not forget the corruption in city hall that started in the early 70's. That didn't help either.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

Perhaps a bankruptcy is what is needed.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 11):

Thanks for the links. I'm glad to hear that things are starting to look up in Detroit again. I really liked visiting there and I think the place has a lot to offer. The neighborhoods are scary but hopefully that will change.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 5):
Manhattan,

Not a separate city. Just one of the five boroughs that make up New York, New York.



In my trip report there a few years ago, I show both the good and bad sides of Detroit.
The blight does look depressing but I'm glad to hear that things are turning around.

Detroit Rock City (SFO-PHL-DTW) (by Superfly May 11 2009 in Trip Reports)?threadid=148353&searchid=148870&s=Detroit+Rock+City#ID148870



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Living and working in the Detroit area for 4 and and half decades, I had a pretty good front row seat for the city's slow then rapid demise. It was pretty painful. After the old mansion I and roomates leased down near the GM Building was shot up by the National Guard during the 1967 riots, (provoked by police brutality charges, among many other things) I moved to neighboring Dearborn but still had that front row seat.

IMHO, after the riots, the city's biggest problem became real crooked local politicians from the mayor down to and including the police department and unwavering demands by unions. Mayor Coleman Young effectively drove out multi-thousands of taxpayers (residents and businesses alike) to surrounding communities. Succeeding mayors weren't much better, except for current Mayor Dave Bing, one of basketball's 50 greatest all time players and Michigan industrialist, who seems to be one real honest, upstanding gentleman. He simply inhereted a train wreck that's quite impossible to re-rail post-haste.

I really wish Detroit all best. I had a LOT of fun in that community and did quite well career-wise and have mostly fond memories. It was sad to see one of the world's greatest cities crumble because of greed and ineptitude. rergards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3992 times:

There are checks in balances in life. In theory you need them. If you live forever, you'd never be motivated to do anything, because you can always do it next millenium.

Municipal unions, too, need a credible possibilities of BK to limit their otherwise infinite demands. Pensions are million dollar bags of gold. They are custom designed to appear middle class (based on salaries under 100k) while actually costing millions per career worker. Many public sector workers actually earn double their stated salary, including fair accrual of pensions. But that's a "surprise" (by design).

Detroit bankruptcy is likely decades overdue. Policy makers should design credible and sustainable policies. Bankruptcy is a huge step forward toward a sustainable future. Here's an idea - don't offer pensions. Accountants all know -- pensions are designed to decieve.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11591 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Thread starter):
Just 53% of owners paid their 2011 property taxes

I wonder if that includes industry? It is no secret that industry is always courted to a city by that city giving massive tax credits and breaks. I wonder how that figured into Detroit going bankrupt.

Also, no one is talking about the right-wing governor allowing the city to be taken over by a manager he appointed, city government be dissolved and, soon after, declared bankruptcy. Now, yet another attack on union workers.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 21):
Succeeding mayors weren't much better, except for current Mayor Dave Bing

Dennis Archer tried... The rest were useless.


25 cptkrell : Yes! Dennis Archer. I have been retired and out of the area for almost a dozen years and forgot Mr. Archer who I believe was a good man. regards...ja
26 Post contains links dtw9 : In reality the Governor gave the Mayor and City Council a year to come to an agreement to get the City's financial house in order The City councel de
27 DocLightning : Again, people should trump corporations. Corporate lenders are not going to starve. People can and will.
28 Dreadnought : LOL, I was wondering when someone like you would somehow try to blame conservatives. Sorry. Detroit has been 100% run by Democrats for over 50 years
29 DocLightning : It's true that democratic mayors have controlled Detroit, but the fact is that for almost 100 years, Detroit has been run neither by Democrats nor Re
30 cptkrell : Governor Snyder (R), has currently said "we're not kicking the can down the road anymore" but admits that even the taxes and fees incomes are now in j
31 DocLightning : Oh it certainly did. It allowed people to live in the suburbs and continue to commute into the City to the office. Before the trenches, this sort of
32 Dreadnought : Considering that the Mayor's office (and presumably the rest of the city council) were equally - if not more - closely connected to the United Auto W
33 dtw9 : Not entirely true. The 67 riots and the election of Coleman Young accelerated "white flight" more than freeways. Detroit up until the late 60's early
34 travelin man : What Detroit SHOULD do is reduce the size of its city limits by about 75% -- reducing its footprint to correspond to its collapse in population. Right
35 dtw9 : Problem with that is, there isn't a city that borders Detroit that wants to inherit any of the land and the problems that go with it. Most of the inn
36 johns624 : DTW9 hit the nail on the head. The biggest reason for the downfall of Detroit was the 1967 riots and the "blockbusting" don't by a certain real estate
37 PPVRA : Companies have gone bankrupt because of defaults. That's additional jobs lost. The damage from destroying trust in the US court system by breaching c
38 PPVRA : Detroit should turn itself into the Hong Kong of America. Negotiate with the state for a special free economic zone, where no state taxes have to be p
39 Post contains links dtw9 : They already do and have for some time http://www.detroitmi.gov/DepartmentsandAgencies/RenaissanceZones.aspx
40 DTW2HYD : I would have thought they could use Eminent Domain Laws. Barring that, there are neighborhood with blocks of abandoned houses, but few residents refu
41 L-188 : Don't have a link but a state judge just ordered the bankruptcy filing withdrawn because it was against the state constitution. This could get interes
42 dtw9 : That will be overturned under appeal by tonight.
43 L-188 : That's my thinking too, but stranger things have happened.
44 DocLightning : Let's say that it was a good helping of both. Without the freeways, it would not have been possible. The riots and Mr. Young pulled the trigger. It's
45 dtw9 : Now this is where you can blame the freeways. Detroit has more automotive suppliers in the area then it's ever had. The problem is that they are spre
46 2707200X : It is not just a liberal and conservative thing, Orange County,CA declared bankruptcy in 1994 also Harrisburg, PA, Stockton, CA , San Bernardino, CA
47 usflyer msp : That judge is one of the worst judges I have seen in some time. Her reasoning was not quite logical and her comment about sending a copy of her judgem
48 DocLightning : We can also blame the auto companies. In the 1970's and 1980's they used this business model of "planned obselescence" in which cars were intentional
49 DeltaMD90 : I think Detroit's demise has a lot more to do than just "it's the Republicans' fault" or "it's the Democrats' fault." You have hundreds of Democrat r
50 dtw9 : Detroit had many factors that worked against it after WW2. There was a time when anything and everything was manufactured in the city from washing ma
51 Ken777 : Investments have a built in risk factor where retirement programs are simply deferred compensation - but it is still compensation for work performed
52 dtw9 : Not when you have 100,000 vacant lots, a police force with an average response time of 59 minutes if they come at all. 9 out of 27 EMS rigs working a
53 Dreadnought : Hence the need to eliminate the concept of pensions at all levels. No business or government should have to carry such "deferred compensation" on the
54 cptkrell : The freeway thingie. As I said, the first "trench" (Davison Fwy) was operational in 1942, IIRC. The population of Detroit increased by about 14% in t
55 wardialer : Well, GM wanted their business operations in Eastern Europe. So its actually their fault. Outsourcing of US jobs to Eastern Europe has become the most
56 Post contains links seb146 : Let's not forget the fact that on June 15, 2011 Rick Schneider declared he would refuse to let any Michigan city go bankrupt. http://www.freep.com/ar
57 wardialer : We as "sheepeople" dont get the fact that this all GMs fault outsourcing their jobs in Eastern Europe. You just dont all get it dont you???? Wake up a
58 Dreadnought : Sounds like you need some coffee yourself. GM has 2 factories in Eastern Europe, one in Poland, which makes Opel Astras (which are also made in Germa
59 wardialer : Yes it is....Im afraid it is still considered outsourcing as all US American corporations like GM should conduct business only in the USA. Period. Tha
60 Dreadnought : Wow - I've never met such a xenophobe. So in your world, Coca-Cola, Ford, American Express would be restricted to US operations, and we cannot buy Me
61 Post contains images WestJet747 : No. GM is producing vehicles in Europe to be bought by European customers. That is not outsourcing. It's called "foreign direct investment" (FDI). Ah
62 BMI727 : So what would you say to all the Americans employed building Boeing jets that end up in Europe? Or the Americans working for Caterpillar building equ
63 wardialer : Look at the unemployment stats not only in Detroit, but all of USA. Before this whole outsourcing project began, unemployment rates were approx. 3 to
64 Post contains links WestJet747 : http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...for-us-tech-centre/article9363014/ You realize that outsourcing is done to save money, right? I should also men
65 Dreadnought : You've never heard of technological improvements? A machine digger which operates with 37 laborers and does the work formerly requiring 7,000 pick an
66 cptkrell : Wow...as Stuart Varney likes to say (paraphrased) : "You certainly have the right to your own opinion but you don't have the right to manufacture you
67 luckyone : Before this whole outsourcing program began, there was the Cold War, whereby the United States (and the USSR) spent untold TRILLIONS of dollars of mo
68 Pyrex : So you defend the unconstitutional abrogation of contract rights a posteriori to defend politically convenient constituencies? Hey, it works for ever
69 Dreadnought : Oh, I would. These "deferred comp" packages are the biggest reason why so many cities and states around the country are so deep in the sh&t they
70 Pyrex : I understand, totally agree that shifting the costs to future taxpayers does not work, that is why I made a parallel with life insurance companies. I
71 Flighty : Why?? Could it be that Detroit policies were anti-business? It takes energy to move away. Speechless. But yeah, if people are moving away, that is a
72 Flighty : Wonderfully said. These pension costs are known by the professionals. It is lied about in the public sector. If annual accrual were used, that's fine
73 falstaff : I was one of those workers. I worked for a company called MSX International in Dearborn, Michigan. I worked in a Ford building, on Ford business rela
74 falstaff : Where do you expect the police officers to live in California if they only make $35,000? I for one want the police to live in or near the communities
75 seb146 : And the same problem will still exist: Right-wingers screaming that "we tax payers should not have to fund those teachers, first responders, etc. liv
76 DeltaMD90 : Don't go from one extreme to the other... the argument is that the pay and pensions are too high, much to high. Most people aren't saying make their
77 Post contains links Flighty : I am saying that including $50k in benefits, it is really $85k. If they value benefits so much, let them have a $35k salary. Most people would rather
78 falstaff : which could easily make it 100 plus including the health insurance... That probably isn't out of line with most businesses who require their employee
79 johns624 : How many of those against pensions are on track to have investment portfolios of at least $1M by the time they turn 65? That's what you'll need to liv
80 Flighty : I'm not against people being wealthy and well prepared. But if I am literally paying govt employee pensions, in addition to (or instead of) saving fo
81 cptkrell : Well, reading the last several (not all, but several) replies, has anyone addressed common sense and realized that today is not yesterday? Long ago (L
82 Revelation : Interesting. It'd also be interesting to know what percentage of the tax itself went unpaid. I suspect the percent of taxpayers figure means lots of
83 seb146 : How? By pointing out what I observe? And they are for upper management. However, for low-rung workers like classroom teachers and on-the-road first r
84 Dreadnought : Fair enough, not everyone is skilled at investing for themselves (personally I think such skills should be taught in high school). But here is where
85 Revelation : I agree with that. It's strange, though, that I have degrees in electrical engineering and computer science and I'm not very good at managing my savi
86 luckyone : Off the top of my head that would drastically reduce a union's bargaining power when it comes to negotiating wages and retirement benefits. An employ
87 Dreadnought : Huh? That makes no sense. The union would not provide anything except money management services, which typically cost around 1.5%-2% per year. The Un
88 Post contains links Revelation : Interesting article on the local art museum, DIA: Ref - http://www.freep.com/article/2013071...re-DIA-works-more-risk-bankruptcy- Seems to be crazy th
89 falstaff : Selling off art to pay debts would likely seriously impact the art museum in the future. If that happens they will have a very difficult time raising
90 Post contains links Revelation : In a city that can't provide basic police and fire service, I was presuming the art museum would be shut down. I see what you are saying, but I don't
91 dtw9 : The city doesn't run the DIA. It is financed by a special tax assessment spread over 3 counties and cost the city zero to operate. I can just see the
92 Post contains images WestJet747 : I think you'll find that your average right-winger says no such thing. You're observing the fringes of conservatism. My high school principal made a
93 DeltaMD90 : Exactly. You responded to a a post placing most the blame on Democrats with one placing most the blame on Republicans. My point is that this situatio
94 dtw9 : When you guys are talking about pensions just remember this fact,fully one half of teachers and two thirds of police and firemen in the country are no
95 seb146 : This is what happens when the right-wing mantra of "no taxes" wins. That is: major cities declare bankruptcy. The right wing has long held a position
96 BMI727 : Find me a right winger who wants "no taxes." Not "lower taxes" or "low taxes" but "no taxes", because that is what you say. Tax rates in big cities d
97 Post contains images WestJet747 : Now you're just making stuff up. Nobody on the right is proposing "no taxes", let alone it being a mantra. Republicans aren't anarchists. I think you
98 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Detroit went bankrupt because the Republicans insisted for low taxes? Come on, do you really believe that? I'm sure looking up the tax rates of Detro
99 Revelation : I doubt 'they' got to pick. My thinking is that the local/state pols wanted to control the investment of those funds instead of just sending them to
100 cptkrell : I get a little nervous contemplating union-managed retirements/401Ks as previously suggested in this topic. I perceive that past history suggests that
101 okie : Detroit has set such a precedence in the past of corruption and political favors that the secured creditors seem to be willing to take their chances
102 falstaff : You don't need to. They are the highest in Michigan. However Detroit doesn't do a very good job collecting taxes. Like many large cities they have an
103 Post contains links Dreadnought : Detroit has been a complete meltdown. And the scary thing is that there are other cities in the country, while not as massive a failure as detroit, ar
104 Post contains links dtw9 : Falstaff my favorite story about the Detroit Police is the incident that happened last year. A guy had just murdered someone and fled. An hour later h
105 Flighty : Just want to say thanks for the above posts, especially falstaff. You have real stories about what is going on. I was going into the red zone, frothin
106 falstaff : That is a good one. I forgot about that, but that was big deal locally too. Problems, like the ones Detroit has, are also seen in other places in the
107 dtw9 : Don't forget Allen Park. They also asked for and received an EFM
108 seb146 : Seems like I touched a nerve. What really bothers me about the fringe right-wing in control of Michigan right now is they just dissolve local governme
109 dtw9 : They haven't dissolved anything. The local ELECTED officials are still in place. Detroit will hold new ELECTIONS this fall for Council and Mayor as s
110 falstaff : Just like what happened in Ecorse. They got their act together again and the EFM left again. no government is dissolved, but a school district can be
111 cptkrell : Like I've said before, it's been a quite a while since my residency in Detroit (admittedly mostly in immediate neighboring Detroit suburb), but I must
112 Dreadnought : I love it how some people are so desperate to blame others for Detroit. The mayor has been a (D) since 1961. The last Republican to sit on the City C
113 teme82 : And here in Europe we have the usual banks loaning Detroit that were loaning to Greece! *sigh*
114 Post contains images okie : Seb is obviously a poster child for what is wrong with Detroit. Okie[Edited 2013-07-22 15:16:46]
115 DeltaMD90 : And left wing fringes are saying stupid things too, stupid things that are even way left of you. I doubt any of that will happen. And is the "fringe"
116 Post contains links BMI727 : And now it seems they are the first to reach the finish line. I agree with Jeremy Piven in this commercial, although even this phrase should be retir
117 Superfly : Didn't Governor Jennifer Granholm (Democrat) do that as well? Stop by the Falstaff museum in Taylor, MI while you're up there.
118 Dreadnought : By the way, have they offered to hand the city over to Omni Consumer Products (OCP) yet? Maybe Robocop can fix it. Funny how that dumb movie seems pro
119 FlyPNS1 : The problem with your statement here is that there is NO connection with the Great Society programs. There certainly has been a decline in the tradit
120 falstaff : Yes, the EFM law has been around for sometime and there were EFMs under her watch, such as in Ecorse. However the old EFM law didn't allow the EFM to
121 cptkrell : With Falstaff Beer's history in Missouri (and some other areas) one wonders why the Falstaff Museum is in Taylor, MI. Maybe I had blinders on all thi
122 Post contains images Superfly : I was referring to Falstaff's house in Taylor. It's not an official museum but it mine as well be considering all the vintage Falstaff artifacts. Tha
123 falstaff : It is a museum.... I have over 200 lighted and nonlighted signs, plus much much more.
124 BMI727 : How dare people with a little bit of money leave a crappy place for a better one!
125 cptkrell : Good post, 'Fly; from what I've experienced in several areas, this seems to be quite true. Living up yonder for so many years, I still can't personal
126 cptkrell : Some how, someway, "Macedonian Airlines from (Greece)" krept into my previous post #125 and I not only do not know how that happened but have been uns
127 FlyPNS1 : I'm not necessarily blaming them for leaving, I'm just pointing to the fact that this mass exodus from cities did extreme damage to those that were l
128 seb146 : Let's get rid of the word "black" in your statement. There are many, many white, Asian, Latino, Native one-parent families in this country who need G
129 BMI727 : The Great Society programs are a failure. Almost all of the national debt issues can be traced to two sources: New Deal and Great Society. That's wha
130 Post contains links seb146 : http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpictu...bankrupt-detroit-gop-model-america Couldn't be the war machine. It is never the war machine. Iraq and Afghanist
131 Post contains images WestJet747 : If you're into brewery tours and are ever in the GTA, I highly recommend the Steam Whistle Brewery tour. The brewery is in an old roundhouse in downt
132 seb146 : Oh, heavens! A different view point! The nerve of someone having a different view point! He is a traitor! Actually, the guy wants everyone to have ed
133 Post contains links BMI727 : Not according to Nate Silver, who is far from being a conservative: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...rowth-in-government-spending/?_r=0 No, but
134 WestJet747 : No, I'd say he's awful because he is featured on an anti-American news source and clearly believes in closing America's borders to FDI. If there's on
135 Post contains images Superfly : No, no, no! Gary is much worse today. The gray and grayer streaks you saw was from a working factory back when people had jobs. Sure things are clean
136 FlyPNS1 : Yet every industrialized nation has them in some form. The only countries that have no social safety nets are typically third world nations. Gee, I w
137 Revelation : It's just a quirk of this site. It's trying to insert the codes for the "hover" tags any time it sees two or three capital letters together, like DTW
138 seb146 : Like computer sciences. And childhood education. And accounting. Those silly liberal arts subjects. The opinion pages I don't agree with, but they ha
139 falstaff : Right next door to me. A group of unemployed high school dropouts who smoke on the front porch all day and get in domestic disputes that involve the
140 Superfly : That's not a liberal arts degree. It's a science and requires advance mathematics.
141 Revelation : A lot of the back end stuff has gone offshore, but there's still a huge demand for good skills in the right locations, mostly Silicon Valley and to a
142 BMI727 : How many of them are losing jobs and money to more competitive locales? Like taking more of someone else's money? John Fogerty was right. How can the
143 seb146 : How would getting rid of all benefits make things better in Appalachia? Again with the willingness to let bridges crumble, military scrounge for part
144 BMI727 : It wouldn't, but then, having benefits really hasn't helped them. The continual growth in entitlement spending flies in the face of how liberals sell
145 Post contains links seb146 : Because corporations are sending jobs overseas. Look back to the 1970s and even the 1980s when there were good jobs in this country. All because we w
146 DeltaMD90 : I think it's pretty much unanimous (from what I've heard) that SS has massive problems, from both the Democrats' and the Republicans' standpoints. Th
147 BMI727 : There still are if you have a useful skill. Doing something that a relatively uneducated foreigner can do just as well at a lower price is going to m
148 Dreadnought : And for some reason, when the government does it, Democrats think it's perfectly fine. I never could understand that. Why was it bad for Bernie Maddo
149 FlyPNS1 : False. Most years Social Security has produced a surplus. That surplus was used for everything but Social Security. But what happens when the foreign
150 BMI727 : There are two types of people who will promise guaranteed returns with no risk and do it with a straight face: Social Security proponents and scam ar
151 okie : Your are a few decades behind the curve on that statement. How about back to Detroit. The Federal Judge overruled the Detroit judge (assume Wayne Cou
152 FlyPNS1 : That's ridiculous. Using that logic, almost every bank in America is a Ponzi scheme. So is every insurance company. If everyone crashed their cars to
153 falstaff : No it isn't and I know many skilled high school grads who are much better off than college grads. I teach high auto shop so I see all kinds of young
154 DTW2HYD : They are still there. It is a 149 Sq. Mile City. There are blocks and blocks of abandoned structures with few residents holding out. City has to prov
155 BMI727 : Only if you don't understand what a Ponzi scheme is. No bank or investment firm could pay back all their investors if they wanted to liquidate at onc
156 DeltaMD90 : But what is it producing now? I don't really think it matters what happened in the past. People are living longer and collecting benefits longer and
157 Post contains links dtw9 : In order to kill the debate or add fuel to the fire, here's were the money goes http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...deral-spending-by-the-numbers-2
158 okie : Sure it is comedy but his comment about 58 min police response time and being able to order a pizza and have it delivered before the police show up s
159 falstaff : Smart can only get you so far. Real wealth comes out of the ground. Manufacturing things creates wealth, services only move wealth around. It also de
160 BMI727 : There are really only two endgames if people insist on trying to perpetuate the system: contributions have to become huge to cover the current benefi
161 seb146 : Which is what I keep saying: Bring good paying jobs back! Private industry loves to crow about how they are making a killing by shipping jobs oversea
162 DeltaMD90 : Or just raise the age in which you draw benefits. IIRC, when SS first came out most people died before drawing from it, and it prevented the old and
163 BMI727 : How do you plan on doing that? Magic? You want to more for basic things because they're made in America? What you're talking about is creating and en
164 seb146 : People keep screaming about "there are no 'made in America' products anymore!" But, when 'made in America' products are sold, people buy Chinese made
165 BMI727 : Exactly. So are you going to make foreign products contraband? I'll let you in on a something that isn't really a secret, but plenty of liberals seem
166 seb146 : Because in your unpatriotic idiotic world, we the people let foreign and multi-national corporations decide for us instead of making up our own minds
167 BMI727 : Speak for yourself. Take responsibility instead of trying to get the government to fix anything about life you think is too hard. Who the hell thinks
168 Revelation : The reality is that it doesn't matter if you are happy or not, you are living in a country that has the rules it has, and your choices are to try to
169 falstaff : You must not spend a lot of time in union towns like Detroit. The buy American scream is the loudest from the labor unions. Every union hall (includi
170 PPVRA : How is that theory working out for Cuba and North Korea?
171 luckyone : While I understand the sentiment, and would love more jobs to be coming back to the States, I would advise you to come down to Earth and accept the r
172 BMI727 : Funny how liberals don't want that line of logic to apply to things like gay marriage. The simple fact is that my money should be my money. And if ev
173 Revelation : It's nonsense to say that because one special forces unit failed one mission then the state of the entire military was deplorable. They were trained
174 BMI727 : It is, but it isn't nonsense to say that it was just perhaps the most visible symptom of deep problems within DoD after Vietnam. The invasion of Gren
175 seb146 : That is something I don't understand: The ones who scream most about how we need good paying jobs in this country are the ones shipping those jobs ov
176 BMI727 : Aren't we talking about the war on poverty? It's been going on for five decades and the costs are going up, not down. You'd think people would be get
177 PHX787 : I had a conservative history teacher in high school. The most intelligent man i've ever met. Was able to explain anything from both sides of the aisl
178 Revelation : I didn't - I said we should measure the readiness of the military based on its ability to perform the missions it trained for, and all evidence is th
179 falstaff : How do you know those US made products aren't union jobs? Even if they aren't union they may be made by unskilled labor which is cheap. Skilled labor
180 BMI727 : Bush really wasn't a conservative in many ways. People like to throw around the term "neoconservative" as a general purpose pejorative without knowin
181 Revelation : So you prefer that the military not be able to do its primary missions? Given they accomplished the mission, it seems to be an example of the flexibi
182 BMI727 : I prefer that the military be well equipped, well trained, and adaptable enough to do whatever missions it's called on to do. We got away with it. If
183 Post contains links and images Superfly : True and the young recent computer science grads that graduated recently obviously are in the engineering space. ...and those people do not have diff
184 luckyone : Audaciousness at its finest...
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