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Detroit Files For Bankruptcy  
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 515 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4750 times:

Just announced on the BBC, that Detroit is going to file for Chapter 9 Bankruptcy.

The city is estimated to have debts of $15bn or £10bn

Some Detroit Facts (courtesy of the BBC)

Population has shrunk from a peak of 2 million in the 1950s to 713,000 today

Highest violent crime rate of any major US city, with 15,245 reported incidents in 2011

Some 78,000 abandoned and blighted buildings

40% of street lights do not work

Only a third of the city's ambulances are in service

Just 53% of owners paid their 2011 property taxes


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23369573


Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
184 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

Good for Michigan, Metro Detroit and citizens of City of Detroit. Bad for City Workers. With $1 Billion revenue per year, there is no way to pay off $15 Billion debt.

User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4624 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
Good for Michigan, Metro Detroit and citizens of City of Detroit

A clean slate would be a good place to start. There was some success in the downtown rehab.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
Bad for City Workers.

The Unions did not want to negotiate wages and pensions, many of the creditors were not to excited about taking a 90+% loss and will take their chances with bankruptcy. The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

Okie


User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4573 times:

And let's not forget the corruption in city hall that started in the early 70's. That didn't help either.

User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4522 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Thread starter):
Some 78,000 abandoned and blighted buildings

There is a website of two photographers showing the ruins of Detroit. It looks like a city hit by war. This is quite frightening.

http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/index.html



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4503 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
A clean slate would be a good place to start. There was some success in the downtown rehab.

Any chance that portions of Detroit will be sold off to form smaller municipalities? Boston, Manhattan, and San Francisco could be contained within the city limits of Detroit. Only Boston is smaller in population than Detroit.

For my two cents, this just the worst example of a problem sown with a mindset born after WW2: People thinking that they can buy themselves lifetime security with pensions paid for by their children, never stopping to think that economies are fluid and all it would really take to shot that model to pieces was a few countries willing to copy the US industrial model. Brilliant. You then have a generation of people raised to think they're the center of the universe, with a divine right to be masters of it.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4490 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 4):
There is a website of two photographers showing the ruins of Detroit. It looks like a city hit by war. This is quite frightening.

Except that half those buildings have been restored or are going through restoration. The other half other than the old Packard plant are already gone or will be razed or restored

The second picture today

http://brodericktower.com/

The building in the third picture is under restoration

forth and fifth pictures see the Broderick

The sixth picture under full restoration

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...ation-hotel-detroit_n_2970968.html

There's even a new plan to restore the old Packard plant

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130717/METRO01/307170043

[Edited 2013-07-18 19:34:17]

[Edited 2013-07-18 19:35:35]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

I didn't even know a city could just file for bankruptcy. Sad how mismanaged the city must be


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4466 times:

Well, as a SE-MI-born and raised expat, I'm not surprised. That's part of why I got out as soon as I hit adulthood. It was obvious to me that the city had put all its eggs in the auto industry and when that industry left Detroit, there was nothing left. Michigan's horrible legislature will not help attract new businesses to the Detroit Metro Area, either.

Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

Which is something I support. Individuals who worked long and hard for their pensions should get them and they should have priority over corporate creditors whose very day-to-day food bill isn't at risk.


User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4451 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 6):
Except that half those buildings have been restored or are going through restoration

My bad. Maybe the website is a bit old.

I'm glad to see some buildings are under restoration. There are some beautiful buildings and it was sad to see them in that state.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1648 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

I really like Detroit, this is a new chapter in the cities history. I want to see it do well and turn it all around and hopefully this is a step in the right direction.


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

You ever heard of Dan Gilbert Doc? The man has bought 30 major buildings in the last two years , has just purchased the Greektown Casino and is looking to add more to his portfolio. And all of the space he's buying is pretty much spoken for. Mike illich just announced this http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130619/BIZ/306190075 Then we have to new light rail
http://www.freep.com/article/2013042...1-Rail-streetcar-Detroit-Woodward. Just because it's bankrupt doesn't mean it's dead. In fact there is more happening downtown now than in the last thirty years. Here's what Dans got planned for Detroit http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...r-detroit-that-includes-districts#

[Edited 2013-07-18 20:10:09]

[Edited 2013-07-18 20:22:54]

User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Which is something I support. Individuals who worked long and hard for their pensions should get them and they should have priority over corporate creditors whose very day-to-day food bill isn't at risk.

Good emotional try Doc but I think you will find that there are people who invested their lifetime of work and saving for personal retirement into the city's bonds as well.
Why should they get a haircut on their investments?

Okie


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4386 times:

It's easy enough for all sides to blame others, but now we are moving towards a point where we need to define how the city starts over in terms of rebuilding.

Detroit is going to have to leverage their property based assets and the 47% who don't pay property taxes need to catch up very quickly, or have their property taken to sheriff's auctions, with taxes owed as the starting bid. It's important too understand that a Bankruptcy Court will be in charge, with political leverage being wiped out in the property tax games.

Reality is that there are going to be debt holders who are taking a bath in the near future. To ease the pain, deliver properties to them with 5 years of tax exemption. If they develop the property then give them another 5 years of exemptions. Detroit needs the Build, Baby, Build approach to recovery, and they need to reward private developers who get in fast.

Interest rates are low right now so it is a good time for investments in infrastructure development, or maintenance of old infrastructures. That delivers jobs and that is what Detroit needs, and needs fast.

The other issue that needs to be addressed is how to minimize subsequent bankruptcies. You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions. The lucky ones will have paid off their houses and can keep them when they file. The others will simply push the city down even more. There had better be a lot of fear in terms of those pensions.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4378 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 9):
I'm glad to see some buildings are under restoration. There are some beautiful buildings and it was sad to see them in that state.

Thanks. Those of us that have invested our lives here couldn't be happier to see the revival of the City of Detroit finally taking place. Here's one of my personal favarites that's undergoing restoration now and will be finished by next spring
http://gardetroit.org/


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
The other issue that needs to be addressed is how to minimize subsequent bankruptcies. You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions. The lucky ones will have paid off their houses and can keep them when they file. The others will simply push the city down even more.

Most of the pensioners don't live in the city anymore and more than half of those don't live in Michigan, so that part will have minimal impact on the city.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Detroit is going to have to leverage their property based assets and the 47% who don't pay property taxes need to catch up very quickly, or have their property taken to sheriff's auctions

The Sheriff wouldn't even want most of those properties. People paying 5000 in taxes a year on a house that's worth 2500 and I think you see where the problem lies


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4360 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

It most likely will. There is still the infrastructure there for a city. Somebody just has to use it. Sooner or later the cost will be too good to pass up. Apparently others have said it has started to occur in the downtown of Detroit.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Detroit needs the Build, Baby, Build approach to recovery, and they need to reward private developers who get in fast

They are starting to see the rewards of the process of rebuilding downtown with private developers. GM says they are in Detroit to stay. Things are really starting to look up in Detroit. They just owe $15B that they can not pay nor have a tax base to pay it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions.

Their pensions have not been dissolved or gutted the city has been delinquent on properly funding the pension system. There is money there, just not the full amount. (They may have to retire on 75% pay instead of 90%)
The unions were offered a chance to take partial payment in a settlement for the money owed and basically putting them on equal footing with secured creditors. The unions turned that option down to be on equal statis with secured creditors and will be put on the unsecured debtors list. The unions have chosen that position so they can petition the Obama administration to put them ahead of the secured creditors.


Okie


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 2045 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4272 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 9):
My bad. Maybe the website is a bit old.

In the introductory text, the authors say: "This work is thus the result of a five-year collaboration started in 2005."

The related book was published in 2010. In three years a lot can happen and it's good to see things are starting to look up at Motown.



I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days ago) and read 4232 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

If this happens you can expect lawsuits left and right. These unions, by not cooperating, really helped to tear this city down. Maybe the below had something to do with it too.....

Quoting type-rated (Reply 3):
And let's not forget the corruption in city hall that started in the early 70's. That didn't help either.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4215 times:

Perhaps a bankruptcy is what is needed.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 11):

Thanks for the links. I'm glad to hear that things are starting to look up in Detroit again. I really liked visiting there and I think the place has a lot to offer. The neighborhoods are scary but hopefully that will change.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 5):
Manhattan,

Not a separate city. Just one of the five boroughs that make up New York, New York.



In my trip report there a few years ago, I show both the good and bad sides of Detroit.
The blight does look depressing but I'm glad to hear that things are turning around.

Detroit Rock City (SFO-PHL-DTW) (by Superfly May 11 2009 in Trip Reports)?threadid=148353&searchid=148870&s=Detroit+Rock+City#ID148870



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4113 times:

Living and working in the Detroit area for 4 and and half decades, I had a pretty good front row seat for the city's slow then rapid demise. It was pretty painful. After the old mansion I and roomates leased down near the GM Building was shot up by the National Guard during the 1967 riots, (provoked by police brutality charges, among many other things) I moved to neighboring Dearborn but still had that front row seat.

IMHO, after the riots, the city's biggest problem became real crooked local politicians from the mayor down to and including the police department and unwavering demands by unions. Mayor Coleman Young effectively drove out multi-thousands of taxpayers (residents and businesses alike) to surrounding communities. Succeeding mayors weren't much better, except for current Mayor Dave Bing, one of basketball's 50 greatest all time players and Michigan industrialist, who seems to be one real honest, upstanding gentleman. He simply inhereted a train wreck that's quite impossible to re-rail post-haste.

I really wish Detroit all best. I had a LOT of fun in that community and did quite well career-wise and have mostly fond memories. It was sad to see one of the world's greatest cities crumble because of greed and ineptitude. rergards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4090 times:

There are checks in balances in life. In theory you need them. If you live forever, you'd never be motivated to do anything, because you can always do it next millenium.

Municipal unions, too, need a credible possibilities of BK to limit their otherwise infinite demands. Pensions are million dollar bags of gold. They are custom designed to appear middle class (based on salaries under 100k) while actually costing millions per career worker. Many public sector workers actually earn double their stated salary, including fair accrual of pensions. But that's a "surprise" (by design).

Detroit bankruptcy is likely decades overdue. Policy makers should design credible and sustainable policies. Bankruptcy is a huge step forward toward a sustainable future. Here's an idea - don't offer pensions. Accountants all know -- pensions are designed to decieve.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Thread starter):
Just 53% of owners paid their 2011 property taxes

I wonder if that includes industry? It is no secret that industry is always courted to a city by that city giving massive tax credits and breaks. I wonder how that figured into Detroit going bankrupt.

Also, no one is talking about the right-wing governor allowing the city to be taken over by a manager he appointed, city government be dissolved and, soon after, declared bankruptcy. Now, yet another attack on union workers.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 21):
Succeeding mayors weren't much better, except for current Mayor Dave Bing

Dennis Archer tried... The rest were useless.


User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4132 times:

Quoting johns624 (Reply 24):

Yes! Dennis Archer. I have been retired and out of the area for almost a dozen years and forgot Mr. Archer who I believe was a good man. regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Also, no one is talking about the right-wing governor allowing the city to be taken over by a manager he appointed, city government be dissolved and, soon after, declared bankruptcy. Now, yet another attack on union workers.

In reality the Governor gave the Mayor and City Council a year to come to an agreement to get the City's financial house in order The City councel decided to spend that time kicking the can further down the road because they didn't have the courage to face the truth. Many options were presented to them and they turned up their noses to each and every one. The Council finally signed a consent agreement which mandated they start taking action,well, they didn't. The Council spent that time trying to figure out how to get as Joann Watson put it,"Some bacon from Obama". You can call him by any name you want but at least Snyder has the Balls to do something that should have been done 40 years ago. Had any one of the previous Govenors during that 40 year time span taken action,Detroit wouldn't be where it is today. Hell, Kwame borrowed 2 Billion dollars during his term with no way of paying it back and Bing has added another 3/4 Billion in his term. And it's not an attack on Union workers,it's a wake up call that you can't keep promising things that you have no way of paying,why do you think Social Security is in the mess it's in. Unless other Cities and the Federal Government wake up you're going to see alot more Detroits before it's over. Just take a look a California http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/us...r-than-earlier-estimates.html?_r=0

[Edited 2013-07-19 09:56:19]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 12):

Good emotional try Doc but I think you will find that there are people who invested their lifetime of work and saving for personal retirement into the city's bonds as well.
Why should they get a haircut on their investments?

Again, people should trump corporations. Corporate lenders are not going to starve. People can and will.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4153 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Also, no one is talking about the right-wing governor allowing the city to be taken over by a manager he appointed, city government be dissolved and, soon after, declared bankruptcy. Now, yet another attack on union workers.

LOL, I was wondering when someone like you would somehow try to blame conservatives.

Sorry. Detroit has been 100% run by Democrats for over 50 years (including one who was a member of CPUSA). They tried their heavy-handed and expensive programs to engineer a better Detroit, causing all the better-off people (i.e. taxpayers) to flee from the 60s onwards. The left owns this baby.

By the way, the municipal pension fund, which is largely responsible for this bankruptcy, is going to be bailed out by the Federal Pension Benefits Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). So the rest of us are going to be stuck with the bill (again).



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Sorry. Detroit has been 100% run by Democrats for over 50 years (including one who was a member of CPUSA). They tried their heavy-handed and expensive programs to engineer a better Detroit, causing all the better-off people (i.e. taxpayers) to flee from the 60s onwards. The left owns this baby.

It's true that democratic mayors have controlled Detroit, but the fact is that for almost 100 years, Detroit has been run neither by Democrats nor Republicans but by the auto companies. No mayor, Democrat or Republican, could have been elected without their support.

It was the auto companies that had the trollies ripped out and opposed any and all plans for public transit other than a paltry bus system and the glorified parking system called the "People Mover." It was the auto companies that got the trench freeways built, contributing to the "white flight" to the suburbs. It was the auto companies that tried as hard as possible to ensure that all industries in the city centered around the auto industry.

That's what ultimately screwed the city.


User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Governor Snyder (R), has currently said "we're not kicking the can down the road anymore" but admits that even the taxes and fees incomes are now in jeopardy (people are stopping paying their sewer fees and even parking ticket fines because tthere is no enforcement capability!).

Even though I still have relatives and friends in the area, I'm not entirely sure I'd like to re-visit.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):

I would submit that DocLighning's post is partially true. The Big Boys at GM (remember the GM Truck And Coach Division?) looked out of the headquarters building one day and asked "Hey, why are we building all these buses with 40 people on board when we could probably sell nearly 20 or 30 cars for each bus?". Good business, IMHO.

And it's true that the first "freeway" was built in Detroit but I'd hardly say this contributed to the "white flight" to the suburbs. After all, the freeway system was operational in various stages LONG before Mayor Coleman Young said "Whitey...hit the other side of 8 Mile Road" (or words very close) after the '67 riots.

I'll agree that the auto companies tried to develop auto and auto-related industies in and around Detroit but would opine that was also a reason for the SUCCESS of Detroit...Motor Capital of the world. regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 30):
And it's true that the first "freeway" was built in Detroit but I'd hardly say this contributed to the "white flight" to the suburbs. After all, the freeway system was operational in various stages LONG before Mayor Coleman Young said "Whitey...hit the other side of 8 Mile Road" (or words very close) after the '67 riots.

Oh it certainly did. It allowed people to live in the suburbs and continue to commute into the City to the office. Before the trenches, this sort of commute would have been very impractical


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4115 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 30):
I would submit that DocLighning's post is partially true. The Big Boys at GM (remember the GM Truck And Coach Division?) looked out of the headquarters building one day and asked "Hey, why are we building all these buses with 40 people on board when we could probably sell nearly 20 or 30 cars for each bus?". Good business, IMHO.

Considering that the Mayor's office (and presumably the rest of the city council) were equally - if not more - closely connected to the United Auto Workers, I would think that, if it is true that the city intentionally blocked public transport, they were responding as much to the UAW as the businesses.

Or it was sheer incompetence and corruption - and I think that is the more likely scenario.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4091 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Oh it certainly did. It allowed people to live in the suburbs and continue to commute into the City to the office. Before the trenches, this sort of commute would have been very impractical

Not entirely true. The 67 riots and the election of Coleman Young accelerated "white flight" more than freeways. Detroit up until the late 60's early 70's only had I-94 and I-75 that would get you directly out of the city. The Southfield was built in the mid to late 60's and ends at the city limits to the north and until the completion of I-96 only intersected with i-94 in Allen Park. The lodge was built in sections starting in the 50's from Jefferson to Wyoming and further out to the city limits by the mid sixties. I-96 from downtown to the west side wasn't completed until the mid 70's. White flight had already started by the 1950's with a population loss of 200,000 between 1950 and 1960 with white percentage falling from 83 percent to 70 percent of total population. In the time period from 1960 to 1970 Detroit lost another 150,000 residents with the white percentage of Detroits population falling to 55 percent of total population. In the next decade with now having all of the freeways in place and Coleman Young as Mayor, Detroit lost over 400,000 residents and the total of white population of Detroit falling to 34 percent.


User currently offlinetravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4079 times:

What Detroit SHOULD do is reduce the size of its city limits by about 75% -- reducing its footprint to correspond to its collapse in population. Right now it's trying to service a city built for millions with a much smaller population base (and even smaller tax-payer base).

I do wish it the best of luck, however, and hopefully the revitalization that has started will continue and spread.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 34):
What Detroit SHOULD do is reduce the size of its city limits by about 75% -- reducing its footprint to correspond to its collapse in population. Right now it's trying to service a city built for millions with a much smaller population base (and even smaller tax-payer base).

Problem with that is, there isn't a city that borders Detroit that wants to inherit any of the land and the problems that go with it. Most of the inner ring cities are losing population and are financilly sqeezed themselves. Mayor Dave Bing wants to resize the city, not by getting rid of area, but by consolitating neighborhoods but is getting alot of pushback on this idea.

[Edited 2013-07-19 11:57:35]

[Edited 2013-07-19 12:00:21]

User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4065 times:

DTW9 hit the nail on the head. The biggest reason for the downfall of Detroit was the 1967 riots and the "blockbusting" don't by a certain real estate firm immediately thereafter. I know, I lived through it. I lived in Detroit 1959-1990 and worked for the school system 1977-2005.

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4042 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Corporate lenders are not going to starve. People can and will.

Companies have gone bankrupt because of defaults. That's additional jobs lost.

The damage from destroying trust in the US court system by breaching contracts is incalculable.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

Detroit should turn itself into the Hong Kong of America. Negotiate with the state for a special free economic zone, where no state taxes have to be paid and limited regulations (none economic in nature) apply. City will be back within 10 years.

Barring that, it will be decades before anyone could turn the city around.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4004 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):

Detroit should turn itself into the Hong Kong of America. Negotiate with the state for a special free economic zone, where no state taxes have to be paid and limited regulations (none economic in nature) apply. City will be back within 10 years.

They already do and have for some time


http://www.detroitmi.gov/DepartmentsandAgencies/RenaissanceZones.aspx


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3989 times:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 34):
What Detroit SHOULD do is reduce the size of its city limits by about 75%

I would have thought they could use Eminent Domain Laws. Barring that, there are neighborhood with blocks of abandoned houses, but few residents refuse to move, city has to serve those few.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3963 times:

Don't have a link but a state judge just ordered the bankruptcy filing withdrawn because it was against the state constitution.

This could get interesting because I am not sure how valid a court order prohibiting a city from filing in Federal court is.

I see the Feds having an issue with that.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 41):
Don't have a link but a state judge just ordered the bankruptcy filing withdrawn because it was against the state constitution.

This could get interesting because I am not sure how valid a court order prohibiting a city from filing in Federal court is.

I see the Feds having an issue with that.

That will be overturned under appeal by tonight.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

That's my thinking too, but stranger things have happened.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 33):

Not entirely true. The 67 riots and the election of Coleman Young accelerated "white flight" more than freeways.

Let's say that it was a good helping of both. Without the freeways, it would not have been possible. The riots and Mr. Young pulled the trigger.

It's a bit like the gun debate. You can blame the gun or the shooter, but both are required for a shooting. The same is true here.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 30):
I'll agree that the auto companies tried to develop auto and auto-related industies in and around Detroit but would opine that was also a reason for the SUCCESS of Detroit...Motor Capital of the world. regards...jack

Success? I'd not call this success. It's like the body builder who uses steroids and dies at 40 of liver cancer. Was that success? I'd argue that success is, by definition, sustainable.

For a period of time between about 1945 and 1970, Detroit was a raging success. After 1970, it started a long, slow spiral.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
For a period of time between about 1945 and 1970, Detroit was a raging success. After 1970, it started a long, slow spiral.

Now this is where you can blame the freeways. Detroit has more automotive suppliers in the area then it's ever had. The problem is that they are spread over 6 counties and not consolidated in the city of Detroit. Where Detroit really lost out was all the other manufacturing that used to be within the city limits and was never replaced, not only in Detroit, but the entire surrounding area.


User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
LOL, I was wondering when someone like you would somehow try to blame conservatives.

Sorry. Detroit has been 100% run by Democrats for over 50 years (including one who was a member of CPUSA). They tried their heavy-handed and expensive programs to engineer a better Detroit, causing all the better-off people (i.e. taxpayers) to flee from the 60s onwards. The left owns this baby.

By the way, the municipal pension fund, which is largely responsible for this bankruptcy, is going to be bailed out by the Federal Pension Benefits Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). So the rest of us are going to be stuck with the bill (again).

It is not just a liberal and conservative thing, Orange County,CA declared bankruptcy in 1994 also Harrisburg, PA, Stockton, CA , San Bernardino, CA and many smaller towns have declared ch. 9.



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

That judge is one of the worst judges I have seen in some time. Her reasoning was not quite logical and her comment about sending a copy of her judgement to President Obama left me quite puzzled. She was in over her head, IMHO....

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 45):
Now this is where you can blame the freeways. Detroit has more automotive suppliers in the area then it's ever had. The problem is that they are spread over 6 counties and not consolidated in the city of Detroit. Where Detroit really lost out was all the other manufacturing that used to be within the city limits and was never replaced, not only in Detroit, but the entire surrounding area.

We can also blame the auto companies. In the 1970's and 1980's they used this business model of "planned obselescence" in which cars were intentionally made to have short service lives so as to increase sales of newer models.

The Japanese responded by making quality cars, which completely cornered the market. When the auto makers started to catch up, the auto industry did not come back to Detroit. It went to Chicago, Atlanta, Tennessee, etc. But it did not come back to Detroit. The effect has rippled through the whole state.

My grandfather was raised in a tiny town called Onaway around mid-fingers in the state. In his day, the sign at the city limits read: "Onaway Steers the World!" Why? They made all the steering wheels for Detroit there. Today it reads: "Sturgeon Capital of Michigan." Hardly a proud distinction, I must say.

The city fathers of Chicago diversified their industrial and commercial interests. They invested in public transport. They did such things as ensuring that the shore of Lake Michigan would remain mostly undeveloped (the beach, that is) and not clogged with industrial sites. The result is that Chicago is now a major American and world city. Detroit, on the other hand, once a sister to Chicago... is dead.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):

I think Detroit's demise has a lot more to do than just "it's the Republicans' fault" or "it's the Democrats' fault." You have hundreds of Democrat run cities and hundreds of Republican run cities that are doing just fine. There are unique factors that really hurt Detroit



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 49):
I think Detroit's demise has a lot more to do than just "it's the Republicans' fault" or "it's the Democrats' fault." You have hundreds of Democrat run cities and hundreds of Republican run cities that are doing just fine. There are unique factors that really hurt Detroit

Detroit had many factors that worked against it after WW2. There was a time when anything and everything was manufactured in the city from washing machines and stoves to tires, ice cream and beer. As companies merged or went out of business nothing was brought into the city to replace it. From 1947 to 1963 Detroit lost 138000 of it's 338000 total manufacturing jobs. It lost another 50000 within the next 10 years. Detroit adapted to the manufacturing age like no other city in America and died with it. By the mid 1950's Detroit was pretty much "built out" when it came to available land and this in turn forced people to start moving out to the new inner ring of suburbs which started the acceleration of population decline.Then when you add in the riots of 67,school desegragation in the early 70's,the election of Coleman Young who told the criminals to "hit eight mile" which the white population took as to mean them. After that the decline was in full swing with 400000 leaving in the next decade alone. Starting in the early 1980's the upper and middle class Blacks took their turn leaving the city, mainly leaving for Southfield. Now with all of this going on the city never cut back on expenses and used city jobs as a jobs program, over staffing every department offering great benifits and pay. Some examples of this abuse include 12 million dollars a year to run the full time City Council who were paid 90,000 a year with a support staff budget of 700,000 each, plus a Police officer chauffered city car and city credit card. The police chief had a sworn police officer whose only job was to wash and gas up his car. The police force paid a horse shoer 65,000 a year even though the city didn't have horses anymore. Security details for the Mayor staffed by 30 police officers. Paying teachers for years who didn't even work for the district anymore.Taking federal monies for new city buses and never buying the buses. Collecting medicare money for ambulabce rides for the poor and not putting the money back into the fire department. A recent outside audit of the sewage department showed 223 men doing the job that 50 men could handle. Then we get to all of the tens of millions of dollars that are missing because there were no checks and balances in place and I think you can get the point. So you're right,mismanagement,abuse,theft,corruption you name it, Detroits had it all in the last 60 years.

[Edited 2013-07-19 19:19:18]

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 12):
Why should they get a haircut on their investments?

Investments have a built in risk factor where retirement programs are simply deferred compensation - but it is still compensation for work performed by individuals.

There is also the issue that major investors have investments elsewhere - they didn't put all their eggs in one basket and will be able average their loss over a wide portfolio, as well as investors will be able to take advantage of the tax deductions that their loss will deliver. Retired individuals will have neither of those benefits.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 15):
The Sheriff wouldn't even want most of those properties. People paying 5000 in taxes a year on a house that's worth 2500 and I think you see where the problem lies

Where that is the case you take the homes and swipe the land. Clean it up and put it up for development offers. I've already said I believe in tax incentives to get developers interested.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3751 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 51):
Where that is the case you take the homes and swipe the land. Clean it up and put it up for development offers. I've already said I believe in tax incentives to get developers interested.

Not when you have 100,000 vacant lots, a police force with an average response time of 59 minutes if they come at all. 9 out of 27 EMS rigs working at any given time and 15 fire companies browned out daily from lack of manpower

[Edited 2013-07-19 20:07:20]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 51):
Investments have a built in risk factor where retirement programs are simply deferred compensation - but it is still compensation for work performed by individuals.

Hence the need to eliminate the concept of pensions at all levels. No business or government should have to carry such "deferred compensation" on their books. Pay your employees (including 401k funds - which belong to the employee from day 1), and that's it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 51):
There is also the issue that major investors have investments elsewhere - they didn't put all their eggs in one basket and will be able average their loss over a wide portfolio, as well as investors will be able to take advantage of the tax deductions that their loss will deliver. Retired individuals will have neither of those benefits.

Oh, so that makes it OK to steal it? You also forget that some of the biggest investors in municipal bonds are retirees, whether through managed retirement funds or individually. I remember my grandfather had most of his money in munis after his retirement.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3735 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):

The freeway thingie. As I said, the first "trench" (Davison Fwy) was operational in 1942, IIRC. The population of Detroit increased by about 14% in the years 1940-1950. Most of the Detroit trenches were built in the 1950-1960 era. Detroit suffered a decrease in population of about 9.7%. Hardly a mass exodus. In the following decade Detroiot suffered another nine percentage points decrease in residency. But the freeways had already been there. For a while. A direct correlation to a system that had been basically in place for the ten prior years? I don't think that's the prime reason. Hey, the population fell by an astounding(?) 25% between the years 2000 and 2010 because of freeways? Sorry, that doesn't compute. What computes, IMHO, there were REASONS to get the hell out, and making driving easy out wasn't one of the prime reasons.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):

Detroit a success? You bet it was a success. From helping put the world on wheels and winning WWII. Sustainability is not the only criteria for success. How long did the Boeing Stratoliner last? Boeing's still around. But the Strats ('Liners and 'Cruisers) aren't. That's because of a myriad of complexities and advances were addressed by reason. Detroit may be in the dives because of a myriad of complexities and advances that have NOT been addressed by reason.

I believe that a functional private and industrial land transportation system is a plus and not a minus. Note I did not add "public" to the previous sentence. I'll readily admit that is a terrible downfall (for political and other reasons mentioned by several previous replies) but to label the "freeways" as a prime reason for residential population flight is a bit much the way I see it.

Furthermore, since the city was already showing signs of "not being a very good place to open a factory or design center", why, pray tell, would automotive-oriented companies even WANT to invest in operations within the city limits?
I'd say that operations in the surrounding areas, giving you close access to your clients, and not having to put up with the ineptitude and, yes, theft of a corrupt city government would be a sensible move. Actually, when a friend and I opened up our vehicle prototype shop, we did it on the Hazel Park side of 8 Mile Road near I-75, NOT the Detroit side. Guess who's palms we didn't have to grease. regards....jack



all best; jack
User currently offlinewardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Well, GM wanted their business operations in Eastern Europe. So its actually their fault.
Outsourcing of US jobs to Eastern Europe has become the most major cause of our poor US economy, and not just in Detroit.

Now lets all look at the other side of the "pond"
Eastern Europe is actually doing great in their economy versus the USA.
Lets blame this on GM for outsouring and the situation in Detroit.

Shame on America for this and dont blame the US President on this, we should all blame all the CEOs and major corporate greed.

The corporations wanted to do business off-shore like in Eastern Europe, so, this is what we get...

[Edited 2013-07-19 21:09:48]

[Edited 2013-07-19 21:10:18]

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
, the municipal pension fund, which is largely responsible for this bankruptcy, is going to be bailed out by the Federal Pension Benefits Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). So the rest of us are going to be stuck with the bill

Let's not forget the fact that on June 15, 2011 Rick Schneider declared he would refuse to let any Michigan city go bankrupt. http://www.freep.com/article/2011061...option-cities-Gov-Rick-Snyder-says All I did was go to google, type in "June 15 2011 Rick Schneider Detroit Bankrupt" and the first 10 links all say the same thing.

BTW, Michigan has enough in the general fund to help Detroit. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/budget/CAFR_FY_2012_413282_7.pdf Page 17

Also, if these employees had to go on to Social Security either because they didn't make enough to put into savings or their pensions were raided to pay for whatever or for any reason, you on the right would still scream and cry about how they are low-life scum leeching off the government for taking Social Security and why didn't they get a good job and all that. Make up your minds: They have pensions they pay into but you on the right don't want them to have that. They pay into Social Security but you on the right don't want them to have that. Workers do everything you want them to do but they don't do anything at all? Nothing but nothing will ever satisfy you people which is yet another reason why none of you can be taken seriously.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinewardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3703 times:

We as "sheepeople" dont get the fact that this all GMs fault outsourcing their jobs in Eastern Europe.
You just dont all get it dont you????

Wake up and smell of the coffee.

So GM took all this bailout money and they betrayed the USA by doing their business in Eastern Europe.
We should take all the call center jobs there and bring them here back to the USA. But nobody wants to standup to this. Or even take to the streets.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3691 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 57):

We as "sheepeople" dont get the fact that this all GMs fault outsourcing their jobs in Eastern Europe.
You just dont all get it dont you????

Wake up and smell of the coffee.

Sounds like you need some coffee yourself. GM has 2 factories in Eastern Europe, one in Poland, which makes Opel Astras (which are also made in Germany, the United Kingdom, Russia, and China - the Polish ones are mainly sold in Eastern Europe), and a factory in Russia, which is really a joint venture and makes the Niva, a tiny 4x4 successor to the old Lada Niva, also for local sales.

That's not outsourcing. That's local production.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinewardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3684 times:

Yes it is....Im afraid it is still considered outsourcing as all US American corporations like GM should conduct business only in the USA. Period. That is considered to me as "Un-American" and GM is a trader along with the rest of the US based companies which our outsourced. GM is an AMERICAN company. And THEIR conducting business on a foreign soil which is again....Un-American to my standards. Sorry. My point is said here. Agree or not.

This how Detroit got into this mess in the first place. And we wonder who is next....????
Our poor US economy esp. Detroit, is due to this cause. Enough said.

This is my point, And this how WE got into this mess with Detroit and our poor US economy in general.

Its all the call centers as well and not just the manufacturing sector that Im speaking of here.

Sorry, but I do voice my opinions on this very very strongly. And you or all here dont agree, thats OK with me. But I will stick to my point on this.

[Edited 2013-07-19 22:07:20]

[Edited 2013-07-19 22:08:13]

[Edited 2013-07-19 22:09:07]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 59):

Yes it is....Im afraid it is still considered outsourcing as all US American corporations like GM should conduct business only in the USA. Period. That is considered to me as "Un-American" and GM is a trader along with the rest of the US based companies which our outsourced. GM is an AMERICAN company. And THEIR conducting business on a foreign soil which is again....Un-American to my standards. Sorry. My point is said here. Agree or not.

Wow - I've never met such a xenophobe. So in your world, Coca-Cola, Ford, American Express would be restricted to US operations, and we cannot buy Mercedes or Sony products?

How about tourism? Allow that?

[Edited 2013-07-19 22:35:54]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1933 posts, RR: 10
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 59):
Yes it is....Im afraid it is still considered outsourcing

No. GM is producing vehicles in Europe to be bought by European customers. That is not outsourcing. It's called "foreign direct investment" (FDI).

Quoting wardialer (Reply 59):
all US American corporations like GM should conduct business only in the USA. Period.

Ah, the North Korean approach. Very interesting proposal...

Quoting wardialer (Reply 59):
This how Detroit got into this mess in the first place.

So it was free enterprise that bankrupted Detroit?  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 60):
Wow - I've never met such a xenophobe.

No kidding!



Flying refined.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3659 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 59):
Yes it is....Im afraid it is still considered outsourcing as all US American corporations like GM should conduct business only in the USA.

So what would you say to all the Americans employed building Boeing jets that end up in Europe? Or the Americans working for Caterpillar building equipment to build freeways in China?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinewardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3643 times:

Look at the unemployment stats not only in Detroit, but all of USA.
Before this whole outsourcing project began, unemployment rates were approx. 3 to 4.5%
But now its 7.6. All because of outsourcing all US companies like GM, which were based in Detroit now ended bankrupt all because of this.

At least bring back all the call center jobs from Eastern Europe to the USA. Jeez....

You guys dont get it. Cheap labor work also called corporate greed not just GM, but HP as well should be called "betrayers" or "traders"

Its not fair that a US company is conducting business in a foreign country. Sorry, but this is just me. And my opinion.
Might not make any sense to you all, but Im sticking with this. Period. End of story.

And again and again and again, this how Detroit got into this tumble. The only question is, who is next?


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1933 posts, RR: 10
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 63):
All because of outsourcing all US companies like GM
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...for-us-tech-centre/article9363014/

Quoting wardialer (Reply 63):
which were based in Detroit now ended bankrupt all because of this.

You realize that outsourcing is done to save money, right? I should also mention that "outsource" doesn't necessarily mean that jobs are leaving the country. Jobs can technically be outsourced from Detroit to...Detroit. All it means is that the company is delegating tasks to a third-party at a reduced cost that could otherwise be done internally.

Besides, as I mentioned in my previous post, there's a very big difference between outsourcing and FDI.

Quoting wardialer (Reply 63):
Its not fair that a US company is conducting business in a foreign country. Sorry, but this is just me. And my opinion.
Might not make any sense to you all, but Im sticking with this. Period. End of story.

You absolutely have a right to your own opinion, but the facts simply don't support it as far as this discussion goes.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3639 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 63):
Look at the unemployment stats not only in Detroit, but all of USA.
Before this whole outsourcing project began, unemployment rates were approx. 3 to 4.5%
But now its 7.6. All because of outsourcing all US companies like GM, which were based in Detroit now ended bankrupt all because of this.

You've never heard of technological improvements? A machine digger which operates with 37 laborers and does the work formerly requiring 7,000 pick and shovel men. In 1900, one man working seven full days of ten hours each, or seventy hours, produced one ton of steel. By 1929, with improved technology, one man produced a ton of steel in thirteen hours, and it's gotten better since then. Workers displaced in this find new jobs in new industries, like computers.

You seem to have your head firmly entrenched in the past. The higher unemployment we see today has more to do with the increased cost of employment and of firing employees when you no longer need them. Spain learned the hard way when they required employers who let people go had to pay them over a year's severance - the response by businesses was simply not to hire anyone if they could at all possibly avoid it. We aren't that bad in the US yet, but we are moving in that direction.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 59):
Quoting wardialer (Reply 63):

Wow...as Stuart Varney likes to say (paraphrased) : "You certainly have the right to your own opinion but you don't have the right to manufacture your own facts."

I'm thinking you may not have a real understanding of business in an international arena. You did get one thing correct however (although I'm assuming it's a spelling error) about GM being a "trader" (Rep 59) and "traders" (Rep 63). GM and all other international companies certainly ARE traders, as well they should be for successful international business relationships/ventures.

Not that all corporate decisions are as pure as the driven snow, but in the case(s) of GM opening and operating manufacturing plants in foreign countries for those countries local consumption is certainly not "outsourcing" and is certainly not a prime reason for the rate of US unemployment as you cry. regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting wardialer (Reply 63):
Before this whole outsourcing project began, unemployment rates were approx. 3 to 4.5%

Before this whole outsourcing program began, there was the Cold War, whereby the United States (and the USSR) spent untold TRILLIONS of dollars of money neither had building up their military (jobs) to fight each other in proxy wars around the world. This provided many jobs that otherwise wouldn't have been unnecessary, to be paid for by you and me. The ultimate irony is we spent all that money for thousands of nuclear warheads when about twenty ICBMs would have been sufficient to take out most of us in this country, but that's a separate topic. Before this whole outsourcing program began, the United States was more or less the only major industrial nation not leveled by World War 2, and produced close to half of all manufactured goods in the world for a time after the war--ie, jobs that couldn't go anywhere else. The rest of the world caught up because they had what the United States had in the 19th Century that we no longer have now...cheap labor. China does not care about our principles of freedom and whatever else people say is ideologically right--I mean really, do you think the other guy is going to care about what we think is right when he's having to feed his population?--and little by little the benefits of mass production shift their way. The US is still the No. 1 Manufacturer but now "only" produces 1/5 of the world's goods. You have kids raised by blue collar dads who worked the night shift in Detroit encouraged to become white collar workers tomorrow, who expected/demanded those type of jobs. I'll give you my family's example. My paternal great-grandfather owned and worked a farm in Northeast Georgia. His son, my grandfather, was in the Navy in WW2 and followed the boom in Atlanta. He drove a milk truck most of his career. My father worked in sales for a national advertising company, and it was expected in his family that he wouldn't have to drive the milk truck. Now, the real kick in the head comes not when the jobs start disappearing, but when blue collar minded people shockingly find themselves at odds with their white collar-minded children, that they raised not to be blue collar. Then not everybody is on the same page.

[Edited 2013-07-20 06:08:30]

User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4059 posts, RR: 30
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3494 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Which is something I support. Individuals who worked long and hard for their pensions should get them and they should have priority over corporate creditors whose very day-to-day food bill isn't at risk.

So you defend the unconstitutional abrogation of contract rights a posteriori to defend politically convenient constituencies? Hey, it works for every Banana Republic out there (and I am not talking about the clothing brand) so why not apply it to the US as well, correct? That would do wonders to restore faith in the U.S. court system (and with no impact whatsoever on the funding costs of every other municipality out there, including the responsible ones, I am sure).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 53):
Hence the need to eliminate the concept of pensions at all levels. No business or government should have to carry such "deferred compensation" on their books. Pay your employees (including 401k funds - which belong to the employee from day 1), and that's it.

I wouldn't necessarily say eliminate completely, I would say level the playing field. If you want to pretend like you are a life insurance company, you should be regulated as one and have the same capital and reserve requirements, actuarial guidelines, investment portfolio restrictions (including the same limitations on related party transactions - I am looking at you, Social Security Trust Fund), etc.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 68):
I wouldn't necessarily say eliminate completely, I would say level the playing field.

Oh, I would. These "deferred comp" packages are the biggest reason why so many cities and states around the country are so deep in the sh&t they can't see daylight. Some public union threatens trouble, and the politicians grant them benefits to be paid for by future taxpayers - nothing needs to be paid out today. Oh, and take an extra 10% if you mobilize your membership to raise the vote for me... It's sickening.

Same goes for corporations - although corporate management tends to be much more responsible than politicians, they will still be caught in a trap if their business declines and they don't have the cash flow to pay what they promised 20-30 years ago. Nobody can predict the health of a company so far in the future.

There is NO reason why pensions should exist. Exterminate them, and replace with 401ks, funded up-front.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4059 posts, RR: 30
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3457 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 69):
Oh, I would. These "deferred comp" packages are the biggest reason why so many cities and states around the country are so deep in the sh&t they can't see daylight. Some public union threatens trouble, and the politicians grant them benefits to be paid for by future taxpayers - nothing needs to be paid out today.

I understand, totally agree that shifting the costs to future taxpayers does not work, that is why I made a parallel with life insurance companies. In the case of life insurance and annuity policies, the costs are paid many decades in the future as well, but you have proper reserving and capital requirements that guarantee that you cannot pretend like those don't exist (basically, you always need to be fully funded, and then some). Plus, your investment portfolio needs to be a lot more conservative than that of any pension fund, and you cannot discount your liabilities at 8% when the risk-free rate is at 1.5%... I think you would find out that if companies and government entities needed to run their pension plans like an insurance company is run (using rules often implemented by the same people...) the capitalization requirement would be so massive (and the cost of that capital so expensive) that they would quickly switch to 401Ks...



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 50):
As companies merged or went out of business nothing was brought into the city to replace it. From 1947 to 1963 Detroit lost 138000 of it's 338000 total manufacturing jobs. It lost another 50000 within the next 10 years.

Why?? Could it be that Detroit policies were anti-business? It takes energy to move away.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 50):
Now with all of this going on the city never cut back on expenses and used city jobs as a jobs program, over staffing every department offering great benifits and pay. Some examples of this abuse include 12 million dollars a year to run the full time City Council who were paid 90,000 a year with a support staff budget of 700,000 each, plus a Police officer chauffered city car and city credit card. The police chief had a sworn police officer whose only job was to wash and gas up his car. The police force paid a horse shoer 65,000 a year even though the city didn't have horses anymore. Security details for the Mayor staffed by 30 police officers. Paying teachers for years who didn't even work for the district anymore.Taking federal monies for new city buses and never buying the buses. Collecting medicare money for ambulabce rides for the poor and not putting the money back into the fire department. A recent outside audit of the sewage department showed 223 men doing the job that 50 men could handle.

Speechless. But yeah, if people are moving away, that is a huge warning sign. Policy alone (and corruption issues) could have made DTW the #1 city in its class, above Chicago. It is important to study DTW to understand the origins of poverty and despair -- and who is responsible.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 70):
that is why I made a parallel with life insurance companies. In the case of life insurance and annuity policies, the costs are paid many decades in the future as well, but you have proper reserving and capital requirements that guarantee that you cannot pretend like those don't exist (basically, you always need to be fully funded, and then some). Plus, your investment portfolio needs to be a lot more conservative than that of any pension fund, and you cannot discount your liabilities at 8% when the risk-free rate is at 1.5%... I think you would find out that if companies and government entities needed to run their pension plans like an insurance company is run (using rules often implemented by the same people...) the capitalization requirement would be so massive (and the cost of that capital so expensive) that they would quickly switch to 401Ks...

Wonderfully said. These pension costs are known by the professionals. It is lied about in the public sector. If annual accrual were used, that's fine -- report fair accrual. With cops making $250,000 (at least in california) the wages can be cut down to $35,000 salary plus $50,000 in benefits -- that's pretty good pay for their bracket. Or, call it $70k and a health plan but no pension. See, that's fine too -- in fact it's a very competitive salary. Costs would halve.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3452 times:
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Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 64):
All it means is that the company is delegating tasks to a third-party at a reduced cost that could otherwise be done internally.

I was one of those workers. I worked for a company called MSX International in Dearborn, Michigan. I worked in a Ford building, on Ford business related to warranty claims. There are 1000s of workers in similar situations around Detroit.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 69):
There is NO reason why pensions should exist. Exterminate them, and replace with 401ks, funded up-front.

I would agree, but what about for people who already paid in or are close to retirement (or already retired)? I recently had an opportunity to leave my pension plan and go to a 401k. I chose to stay in the pension because the 12 years I had invested in the pension couldn't be pulled out an moved to a 401k so I would have to start all over again. If I could have taken what I and my employer already paid into my pension plan and put it into a 401k I would have been on that like chrome on a hubcap. This would also encourage some worn out employees to leave. I know several people who hate their jobs, but stay in it because they are close to collecting their pensions. They all have said they would have left years ago if they could have taken that money with them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 62):
So what would you say to all the Americans employed building Boeing jets that end up in Europe? Or the Americans working for Caterpillar building equipment to build freeways in China?

Or my dad's business which has made products in Missouri and sold them to the Chinese. I have a friend who owns a pipe manufacturing company who sells pipes to companies from all corners of the globe. Those international sales keep a good number of people in Missouri employed. Without the international sales my dad's business and my friend's business would be much smaller and less successful.

Quoting wardialer (Reply 59):
. GM is an AMERICAN company. And THEIR conducting business on a foreign soil which is again....Un-American to my standards. Sorry. My point is said here. Agree or not.

Like it or not China is the largest car market in the world right now. I am damn glad GM is selling cars there, as a resident of Wayne County, Michigan I would be very upset if GM was letting the Chinese sales slip away just so they could focus on the US market.

I was recently in Thailand and saw many Ford and GM cars/trucks, that were produced in Thailand. It made me feel proud that those people chose to drive cars and trucks made by companies that call southeast Michigan home. GM will debut its next small truck in Thailand (according to a senior GM transmission engineer friend) because they sell more small trucks in southeast Asia than in the USA now. I think that is great, because if GM makes money in Asia that helps them make money in the USA.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3445 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 72):
report fair accrual. With cops making $250,000 (at least in california) the wages can be cut down to $35,000 salary plus $50,000 in benefits -- that's pretty good pay for their bracket. Or, call it $70k and a health plan but no pension. See, that's fine too -- in fact it's a very competitive salary. Costs would halve.

Where do you expect the police officers to live in California if they only make $35,000? I for one want the police to live in or near the communities they serve.

You can't live high on the hog in metro Detroit for $35,000 a year, I know, I did it.

Who are these police officers making $250k? Regular beat cops on the job for a couple of years? I doubt it. I remember an article in the Detroit Free Press a year or so ago talking about the 100K pensions in public education. Every "educator" featured was a top level administrator at a large school district, but the headline (which is what people really pay attention to) made it sound like classroom teachers were getting that much. When I retire after 30 years (at age 62) I will get around $47,000 a year.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 69):
There is NO reason why pensions should exist. Exterminate them, and replace with 401ks, funded up-front.

And the same problem will still exist: Right-wingers screaming that "we tax payers should not have to fund those teachers, first responders, etc. living high on the hog" for $30,000 a year. The right-wing DEMANDED the postal service fund their pensions and benefits 75 years out. When the postal service asked for more money because of that, the right started screaming about how the system is broken and we need to get rid of the postal service. Even though it is written into the Constitution.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 75):

Don't go from one extreme to the other... the argument is that the pay and pensions are too high, much to high. Most people aren't saying make their salary $20K a year with no retirement, but something a bit more reasonable than it is now



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 74):
Where do you expect the police officers to live in California if they only make $35,000? I for one want the police to live in or near the communities they serve.

I am saying that including $50k in benefits, it is really $85k. If they value benefits so much, let them have a $35k salary. Most people would rather have $70k salary plus health coverage and no pension. So that's how it usually is done... in the "real world."

250k compensation can occur in areas with base salary above 90k, overtime, pension based on high-5 (salary+overtime) and COLA on that pension forever. Then you're well into physician money + those policemen are functionally millionaires. But, the union would say they're "middle class" due to the 90k base salary.

In most areas including detroit, it is more moderate, but the same principle is at work. Milwaukee teachers have $59k salary, but their annual compensation costs exceed 100k. Their HR manager said that here.

http://www.surlytrader.com/milwaukee-school-teachers-paid-100k/

And, the likelihood is the true number is higher. Pension accrual is rarely (if ever!) done honestly.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3359 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 77):
Most people would rather have $70k salary plus health coverage

which could easily make it 100 plus including the health insurance...

Quoting Flighty (Reply 77):
but their annual compensation costs exceed 100k.

That probably isn't out of line with most businesses who require their employees to have masters degrees and return to school to get continuing education credits. Keep in mind government regulations require these types of things, not just schools.

I find it funny how so many people want to cut the salaries/benefits of public employees, but if the board of directors at their job say "lets cut salaries/benefits" those same people would complain. It is ok to cut somebody elses job, but when it is your job it is different. I never met anyone who was downsized or had their pay reduced at a private business say "I am glad I lost my job, but the company is doing great now and the stock price is up, so I am happy about it"



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

How many of those against pensions are on track to have investment portfolios of at least $1M by the time they turn 65? That's what you'll need to live on $40K a year.
For those that don't, let me give you a hint--there's a big difference between working in old age because you want to as opposed to because you have to.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

Quoting johns624 (Reply 79):
How many of those against pensions are on track to have investment portfolios of at least $1M by the time they turn 65? That's what you'll need to live on $40K a year.

I'm not against people being wealthy and well prepared. But if I am literally paying govt employee pensions, in addition to (or instead of) saving for my own retirement, yeah there is plenty to say about that. To public employees "contribute," that is a whole other can of worms, but for these purposes I will only talk about pensions _above_ what employees contributed _out of their own salaries_. The rest is a gift from "me," (meaning from taxpayers -- and I'm a reasonably ok one).

Quoting falstaff (Reply 78):
I find it funny how so many people want to cut the salaries/benefits of public employees, but if the board of directors at their job say "lets cut salaries/benefits" those same people would complain.

Public employee compensation has never stopped going up. That's one main difference. But there are others.

[Edited 2013-07-20 16:29:13]

User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

Well, reading the last several (not all, but several) replies, has anyone addressed common sense and realized that today is not yesterday?

Long ago (LONG ago) private company and civil government employees got a whole lot of "what they wanted" as part of a emplyee "package" as benifits. Those bennies were an enticement for new hires and were part of compensation. Now, remember when everything was, so to say, really good, manufacturers and government entities (because of ineptitude to even consider future ramifications) gladly signed on because there were no foreseeable downturns and various union representatives campaigned for not only outrageous (by today's standards, anyway) benifits but successfully campaigned for and won even more outrageous benifits financed only in part by the workers themselves for the future.

I will only say that as an "at will" salaried employe of the General Motors Corp. I was subject to any and all additional future compensations by the corporation to be modified or even terminated when the corporation deemed necessary. I had no problem with my retirement package being downgraded money-wise towards the end of my tenure. I didn't LIKE it, but I didn't raise hell. The unions, on the other hand, WOULD raise hell (and maybe even go on strike) thus producing additional burdens on the company.

To the City of Detroit deal. Well...close to the same thing. The various unions will not even consider a modification of their compensation packages. It's kind of like "let me get my load and screw my city, my buddies and my neighbors". BUT, be aware that most of this starts with the corrupt union money-guys willfully enabled by the corrupt local politicians
who are basically thinking of themselves only. Is Kwame Kilpacktrick out of jail yet? Who was the Detroit police chief that had thousands in cash fall out of his kitchen roof during remodelling? Has anyone ever traced even a small percent of Krugerands that Coleman Young pirated away in the islands?

dtw9 (Rep 50); you painfully remined me of some of the very bad stuff.

Not well composed here, but I'm on a l'il rant. regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Thread starter):
Just 53% of owners paid their 2011 property taxes

Interesting. It'd also be interesting to know what percentage of the tax itself went unpaid. I suspect the percent of taxpayers figure means lots of the low-value properties are in arrears, and probably not worth chasing because evicting the owners will only mean more abandoned properties and thus more decay.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

This reminds me that in the 70s NYC was on the edge of bankruptcy and needed to have the feds issue loan guarantees and found its way back. NYC had a lot of inherent strengths but it shows that even they screwed the pooch pretty hard.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Detroit is going to have to leverage their property based assets and the 47% who don't pay property taxes need to catch up very quickly, or have their property taken to sheriff's auctions, with taxes owed as the starting bid. It's important too understand that a Bankruptcy Court will be in charge, with political leverage being wiped out in the property tax games.

The lack of political influence will help, but the reality of putting all those properties on the market at short term will probably mean any recovery will take longer but probably be more successful.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 30):
Governor Snyder (R), has currently said "we're not kicking the can down the road anymore" but admits that even the taxes and fees incomes are now in jeopardy (people are stopping paying their sewer fees and even parking ticket fines because tthere is no enforcement capability!).

I wonder if the court will move towards using private bill collecting firms?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 69):
These "deferred comp" packages are the biggest reason why so many cities and states around the country are so deep in the sh&t they can't see daylight. Some public union threatens trouble, and the politicians grant them benefits to be paid for by future taxpayers - nothing needs to be paid out today. Oh, and take an extra 10% if you mobilize your membership to raise the vote for me... It's sickening.

Jack typed in what I was thinking:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 81):
Long ago (LONG ago) private company and civil government employees got a whole lot of "what they wanted" as part of a emplyee "package" as benifits. Those bennies were an enticement for new hires and were part of compensation. Now, remember when everything was, so to say, really good, manufacturers and government entities (because of ineptitude to even consider future ramifications) gladly signed on because there were no foreseeable downturns and various union representatives campaigned for not only outrageous (by today's standards, anyway) benifits but successfully campaigned for and won even more outrageous benifits financed only in part by the workers themselves for the future.

That perpective is worth repeating.

The companies and governments were able to offer lower wages because the pension funds grew steadily with time. I certainly know many who became government employees and took lower salaries than they could have made in the private sector because they wanted the "security" that the pensions and medical benefits gave them.

It was also thought to be "progressive". Not everyone has the ability to manage money well, and it was thought that if the companies/governments took pension money out of worker's paychecks they could do a better job and gain "economy of scale" with regard to such money management.

While we're seeing what an utter mess defined benefits pensions have become, it's mainly because the entities involved underfunded the pensions and because of the foolhearty decisions of the amazingly greedy individuals in the financial sector.

Also I fear to see what will happen as more and more retire without such benefits - that's going to be an even larger utter mess.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 76):
Don't go from one extreme to the other

How? By pointing out what I observe?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 76):
the argument is that the pay and pensions are too high, much to high.

And they are for upper management. However, for low-rung workers like classroom teachers and on-the-road first responders, they get scraps. The right loves to scream about how all teachers make a king's ransom. Upon further investigation, even principals don't make much. It is those in the front office of the city school districts that make the big bucks.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 82):
It was also thought to be "progressive". Not everyone has the ability to manage money well, and it was thought that if the companies/governments took pension money out of worker's paychecks they could do a better job and gain "economy of scale" with regard to such money management.

Fair enough, not everyone is skilled at investing for themselves (personally I think such skills should be taught in high school). But here is where a union could actually do some good. What if the union offered (at the individual's choice) to manage their 401k collectively - a union mutual fund, if you will, which would manage your retirement funds for you - at a much lower cost to you than a traditional money manager would do (or at least subsidized by your union dues). Now that would be a case where the union truly provides added value to its members.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 84):

Fair enough, not everyone is skilled at investing for themselves (personally I think such skills should be taught in high school).

I agree with that. It's strange, though, that I have degrees in electrical engineering and computer science and I'm not very good at managing my savings/investments, sigh. It's just too random and (too me) nonsensical for me to wrap my head around it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 84):
What if the union offered (at the individual's choice) to manage their 401k collectively - a union mutual fund, if you will, which would manage your retirement funds for you - at a much lower cost to you than a traditional money manager would do (or at least subsidized by your union dues). Now that would be a case where the union truly provides added value to its members.

Off the top of my head that would drastically reduce a union's bargaining power when it comes to negotiating wages and retirement benefits. An employer will quickly say, but you provide that. Why should we?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 86):
An employer will quickly say, but you provide that. Why should we?

Huh? That makes no sense. The union would not provide anything except money management services, which typically cost around 1.5%-2% per year. The Union's negotiating clout would be unblemished, in fact their credibility would be enhanced, as they want to be seen as responsible custodians of their members' interests (something which is sorely lacking now)



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

Interesting article on the local art museum, DIA:

Quote:

Q: Is any of the DIA’s collection protected from seizure?

A: Yes. Many of the 60,000 works owned by the DIA were given to the museum under legal agreements that they not be sold. However, those that were bought by city funds — and this includes some of the DIA’s most valuable and iconic works such as Bruegel’s “The Wedding Dance,” Van Gogh’s “Self-Portrait” and Matisse’s “The Window” — would be vulnerable.

Q: How much money are we talking about?

A: The collection is no doubt worth billions of dollars. The Free Press consulted art experts and auction records to determine that 38 of its greatest treasures probably had a market value of at least $2.5 billion — and several individual works carried estimates of $50 million-$100 million.

Ref - http://www.freep.com/article/2013071...re-DIA-works-more-risk-bankruptcy-

Seems to be crazy that these assets are not being sold off. It'd be sad to see them go, they're like the family silver, but desperate times should mean desperate measures are being taken.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3103 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 88):
Seems to be crazy that these assets are not being sold off. It'd be sad to see them go, they're like the family silver, but desperate times should mean desperate measures are being taken.

Selling off art to pay debts would likely seriously impact the art museum in the future. If that happens they will have a very difficult time raising money, getting donations or buying art in the future. The art may belong to the city, but as a Wayne county resident my tax dollars help fund the museum. Wayne and the surrounding counties voted to to help fund the museum so we really need to havre some say in what goes on with it.

The other thing to think about is that you have to have something left to build a good city from. If you sell off the positive things about Detroit you are left with nothing but bad and nothing good came come of it. There is a very deep distrust in Detroit of people who are from outside the city, especially those who are not black. (you really need to live in the area to understand that). If you start taking away the good things in the city you will further increase the problem and fan the flames of hate even more. People from other parts of the country may say "who cares", but I and millions of others still have to live in the area. We don't need it wrecked more than it already is.

I would be all for selling off the zoo, but keeping it opened. The zoo may be owned by the city, but it isn't in Detroit or even in Wayne County. I could see some serious trouble from Oakland County if an attempt is made to sell the zoo off piece by piece. I would love to see L. Brooks Patterson and his boys from Oakland County come in and annex the zoo and just take it from Detroit. Places like zoo and art museum are frequented more by suburbanites than Detroiters.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 90, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 89):
Selling off art to pay debts would likely seriously impact the art museum in the future.

In a city that can't provide basic police and fire service, I was presuming the art museum would be shut down.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 89):
The other thing to think about is that you have to have something left to build a good city from. If you sell off the positive things about Detroit you are left with nothing but bad and nothing good came come of it.

I see what you are saying, but I don't know that too many people will move to Detroit because there's a good art museum there. I think a lot more would move there if there was good housing cheap, low crime rates, and decent prospects at finding a job that pays a living wage. I don't see art as a key element of the city's turnaround.

It's sad to think about all the suffering that will happen in the short term to get to long term stability and/or growth, but it's pretty clear to me at least that this will involve selling lots of public assets, foreclosing on properties behind on their taxes and bulldozing abandoned and foreclosed properties.

Here's one picture:

https://tinyurl.com/l6qtfmp

Seems if DET could pull a billion or two of value after selling off whatever they are entitled to sell from the museum and then moving towards closure so they don't have to support it in the future, they'd have a nice wad of cash to rebuild around.

I also wonder if those about to get a massive 'haircut' won't insist on this course of action anyway.

Seems also if push comes to shove, Windsor is willing to buy the other half of the tunnel:

http://www.freep.com/article/2013071...oit-Windsor-Tunnel-bankruptcy-sale

[Edited 2013-07-21 16:31:01]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 90):
In a city that can't provide basic police and fire service, I was presuming the art museum would be shut down.

The city doesn't run the DIA. It is financed by a special tax assessment spread over 3 counties and cost the city zero to operate. I can just see the headlines now if anybody tries to sell off any of the artwork that was donated to the museum. "Billionaires sue to stop the sale of donated artwork". Same thing holds true for the Detroit zoo, a special assessment also funds it. The zoo doesn't cost the city a dime to operate hence the removal of the Mayor of Detroit's name from the water tower a few years ago. Also, how do you put a value on zoo animals? Detroit doesn't have what you would consider rare or exotic animals. The Detroit Historical museum and Museum of African American History are also run and funded in the same manner. Now what I can see is Belle Isle being turned over to the State to operate saving the city 6 million a year in costs. Also regionalizing the Detroit water and sewer dept. Privatizing trash removal, merging the DOT into a regional bus system, eliminating the public lighting dept.(which is being merged with DTE). I don't think your going to see a wholesale fire sale of Detroit's limited "Jewels". Now the only problem I see with regionalizing the water dept. and privatizing the trash pickup is trying to figure out how to collect the bill for such services from the 47 percent of homeowners and businesses who don't pay their property taxes. I have to guess those people who don't pay their taxes are probably not paying their water bills either.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1933 posts, RR: 10
Reply 92, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 83):
How? By pointing out what I observe?

I think you'll find that your average right-winger says no such thing. You're observing the fringes of conservatism.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 83):
Upon further investigation, even principals don't make much.

My high school principal made a six-figure salary. I assume principals in Michigan are on similar pay-scales.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 84):
not everyone is skilled at investing for themselves (personally I think such skills should be taught in high school)

It was offered at my high school, it just wasn't mandatory (which is what I assume you meant). I believe it was called something along the lines of "Personal Finance" and was for Grade 12 students only. It was shockingly unpopular. I believe only one section per semester was offered due to low demand.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 84):
What if the union offered (at the individual's choice) to manage their 401k collectively - a union mutual fund, if you will, which would manage your retirement funds for you - at a much lower cost to you than a traditional money manager would do (or at least subsidized by your union dues). Now that would be a case where the union truly provides added value to its members.

  

Quoting Revelation (Reply 85):
It's strange, though, that I have degrees in electrical engineering and computer science and I'm not very good at managing my savings/investments, sigh. It's just too random and (too me) nonsensical for me to wrap my head around it.

It's strange, I have a business degree but I just can't figure out how to properly customize my personal WordPress website. It's just too unintuitive and coded for me to wrap my head around  

It's funny though, I know people with business degrees who still don't know how to invest or properly manage money...and majoring in OBHR is not a good excuse!



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 93, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 92):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 83):
How? By pointing out what I observe?

I think you'll find that your average right-winger says no such thing. You're observing the fringes of conservatism.

Exactly. You responded to a a post placing most the blame on Democrats with one placing most the blame on Republicans. My point is that this situation is more than just one party's ideology screwing up the city. There are other factors that have nothing to do with the Democrats' or Republicans' ideology that jacked up Detroit. That is why you don't see every "Democrat run" city declaring bankruptcy

Quoting seb146 (Reply 83):
And they are for upper management. However, for low-rung workers like classroom teachers and on-the-road first responders, they get scraps. The right loves to scream about how all teachers make a king's ransom. Upon further investigation, even principals don't make much. It is those in the front office of the city school districts that make the big bucks.

Well I'm walking into territory I'm unfamiliar with, but I know it's not as bad as some people make it out to be (not every entry level government worker makes 6 figures, obviously) but I've heard a lot about labor problems and their demands being way too high. I figure, just like 99% of arguments, it lies somewhere in the middle. If people mention high wages, there probably is truth to that (but not absolute truth.) I'm thinking there is some truth to it otherwise I doubt Detroit wouldn't be declaring bankruptcy. Don't think that just because one admits that there may be a labor problem or too high of compensations means one is anti-labor and wants to slash wages down to ridiculous levels



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2989 times:

When you guys are talking about pensions just remember this fact,fully one half of teachers and two thirds of police and firemen in the country are not eligible for Social Securty, they don't pay into it. So unless the local city or State Government who employs them pays their half as part of their compensation package they get nothing upon retirement. So when you look at a 40,000 a year pension, half of that money is what their not getting from SSi. So the next question is, why aren't they paying into SSI and forcing local and State taxpayers to foot the bill with higher pension costs?

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 95, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 93):
I'm thinking there is some truth to it otherwise I doubt Detroit wouldn't be declaring bankruptcy.

This is what happens when the right-wing mantra of "no taxes" wins. That is: major cities declare bankruptcy. The right wing has long held a position of no or low taxes and giving tax breaks to the upper echelon and highest incomes. We have been doing this since the 1980s. Now, after all these years, we have little income and the top 1% are demanding more and telling us we are not giving enough. We are stretched thin but we are doing a bad job.

In my view, that makes Reaganomics a miserable failure.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 93):
Don't think that just because one admits that there may be a labor problem or too high of compensations means one is anti-labor and wants to slash wages down to ridiculous levels

I agree that there are public and union employees who make way too much per hour to do nothing. However, when a public or union employee ask for help paying for retirement and health care (we all know they are expensive) I don't think that is too much to ask. Especially considering many public and union employees make just enough to survive. It is much easier for a union to get benefits that than an individual.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 93):
That is why you don't see every "Democrat run" city declaring bankruptcy

Republi-CON city of Stockton declared bankruptcy. As did Republi-CON city of Vallejo. Many Republi-CON cities are running deficits because they cut taxes and crank up spending on stupid things like giving money to corporations who may or may not invest in the city.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 92):
I think you'll find that your average right-winger says no such thing. You're observing the fringes of conservatism.

Which have the most powerful voice in the nation.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 96, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
This is what happens when the right-wing mantra of "no taxes" wins.

Find me a right winger who wants "no taxes." Not "lower taxes" or "low taxes" but "no taxes", because that is what you say.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
That is: major cities declare bankruptcy. The right wing has long held a position of no or low taxes and giving tax breaks to the upper echelon and highest incomes.

Tax rates in big cities don't matter much when everyone leaves. Of course, high taxes can help that process along.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
Which have the most powerful voice in the nation.

Not on election day. If they were really the most powerful voice, they wouldn't be the fringes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1933 posts, RR: 10
Reply 97, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 93):
There are other factors that have nothing to do with the Democrats' or Republicans' ideology that jacked up Detroit. That is why you don't see every "Democrat run" city declaring bankruptcy

  

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
This is what happens when the right-wing mantra of "no taxes" wins. [...] The right wing has long held a position of no or low taxes

Now you're just making stuff up. Nobody on the right is proposing "no taxes", let alone it being a mantra. Republicans aren't anarchists. I think you're confusing "no taxes" and "flat tax", which are hardly the same thing.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 93):
That is why you don't see every "Democrat run" city declaring bankruptcy

Republi-CON city of Stockton declared bankruptcy. As did Republi-CON city of Vallejo.

The previous municipality to declare bankruptcy...Jefferson County, Alabama...is Democrat.

Seriously seb, we can play this game all day. But at the end of the day, political affiliation has little to do with these bankruptcies. It's been well-established in this thread that Detroit has issues that are far deeper than the voting station.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
Which have the most powerful voice in the nation.

Loud =/= Powerful



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 93):
I'm thinking there is some truth to it otherwise I doubt Detroit wouldn't be declaring bankruptcy.

This is what happens when the right-wing mantra of "no taxes" wins. That is: major cities declare bankruptcy. The right wing has long held a position of no or low taxes and giving tax breaks to the upper echelon and highest incomes.

Detroit went bankrupt because the Republicans insisted for low taxes? Come on, do you really believe that? I'm sure looking up the tax rates of Detroit should be easy enough. And again, if the Republican ideology of low taxes causes cities to go under, where are all these other Republican run cities that are declaring bankruptcy?

Look, Detroit is obviously a unique, jacked up case. There are many many factors at play here, a lot of them having nothing to do with R or D ideology. If it was as simple as "Republican's believe this, that caused it, the end" then half the cities in the south would be bankrupt. And you're probably the first person I've met that is implying the GOP has a lot of control over Detroit of all places.

I'm not attacking you, the Democrats, unions, workers, etc. I'm just saying that blaming it on one aspect of the GOP is absurd

I guess let me phrase it this way, what are the Republicans doing in Detroit that they aren't doing in every other city in America? And how does the GOP have all this power over Detroit?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 92):
I think you'll find that your average right-winger says no such thing. You're observing the fringes of conservatism.

Which have the most powerful voice in the nation.

Which aren't present in this debate. Why do you insist in continuing to attack the imaginary GOP caricature that isn't on this board? I could be bashing socialists and fascists in my posts, but it would be silly since there are no socialists or fascists on here. FOX news and Rick Santorum aren't a.net members, the most conservative posters we have here usually aren't too bad (most back up what they are saying, a few less frequent posters are usually the ones bashing Democrats ignorantly and threatening to jail them for life or something)

Stick with me, Dread, and the others here. We aren't saying the extreme things you are countering, just stick to the points we say and you disagree with, we have plenty there  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 94):
So when you look at a 40,000 a year pension, half of that money is what their not getting from SSi. So the next question is, why aren't they paying into SSI and forcing local and State taxpayers to foot the bill with higher pension costs?

I doubt 'they' got to pick. My thinking is that the local/state pols wanted to control the investment of those funds instead of just sending them to SSA.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 98):
Detroit is obviously a unique, jacked up case.

That's what makes it so interesting. Also, it may be the fore-runner of several other large municipal bankruptcies. The case law is largely unsettled because so few municipalities have gone BK and because the major investors tended to not want to find out what would happen if the judge got to decide. In this case it looks like it will go the route because the amounts of money are so large and times have changed so much. It seems many legal precedents may be set by this case.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 2911 times:

I get a little nervous contemplating union-managed retirements/401Ks as previously suggested in this topic. I perceive that past history suggests that the union leaders could not be trusted with large amounts of money at their control, just as governments cannot be trusted with same...and I also believe this is one of the primary causations of the very bankruptcy we are currently discussing. regards...jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 2895 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 99):
That's what makes it so interesting. Also, it may be the fore-runner of several other large municipal bankruptcies. The case law is largely unsettled because so few municipalities have gone BK and because the major investors tended to not want to find out what would happen if the judge got to decide. In this case it looks like it will go the route because the amounts of money are so large and times have changed so much. It seems many legal precedents may be set by this case.

Detroit has set such a precedence in the past of corruption and political favors that the secured creditors seem to be willing to take their chances with an unbiased judge.
Not sure how well that is going to go finding an politically unbiased judge that is not tied to Detroit.
We have seen one judge already upheld that bankruptcy is unconstitutional then immediately fired off a letter to the Obama administration looking for support of her decision.

What we know at this point is that in the recent past every effort that has been attempted to help Detroit with their financial mess has been met with cries of anti-union, an alarmist, racist or anti-democrat from the city's leaders trying to protect their six figure salaries and status quo and the citizens of Detroit end up with little or no services. Right now 75% of the tax revenue goes to fund debt service and retirement funds. That leaves little for services after paying for all the salaries at city hall.


Okie


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 months 19 hours ago) and read 2888 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 98):
I'm sure looking up the tax rates of Detroit should be easy enough

You don't need to. They are the highest in Michigan. However Detroit doesn't do a very good job collecting taxes. Like many large cities they have an income tax that is supposed to be paid by city residents and people who work in the city. I recall reading in the Free Press that if all the income tax money was actually collected Detroit could balance its budget (not pay off the debt). Many 1000s of city citizens work outside the city where their employers don't take out the taxes and many that work in Detroit work in small business that don't bother to pay either, because their is very little risk of it being enforced.

The reason Detroit has no money is simple; it is a huge city with only 700,000 largely poor residents. It one time Detroit had 2,000,000 residents and some say it was 2.5 million in 1945. The city is massive, I have read that Boston, San Francisco and Manhattan can fit inside of its borders. It costs a lot of money to operate a city that big, just picking up the trash and patrolling that number of streets is a big job. Detroit wasn't always that big. My church which sits at Woodward and the Fisher Freeway was built inn 1861 on the border of city of Detroit. Today it is still within the boundary of what most people would call downtown Detroit. There were areas of the north and west part of the city that were not developed until the 1950s, while the inner ring suburbs had developed by then.

Detroit's sprawl began during the WWII era when the government wanted less concentration of war production. After the war companies built new and larger plants in the suburbs because the city didn't have the space anymore. Large plants sprung up in Wixom, Woodhaven, Sterling Heights, Ypsilanti, Liviona and so on. People migrated to these suburbs because that is where the jobs where. Much of the housing in Detroit was not all that great to begin with. Large numbers of homes were built between 1910 and 1940, much of which was low quality wood frame construction. People nolonger wanted to live in a crowded city in a crummy house, so they moved to the suburbs. People also left Detroit because of racial tension and crime in the 1960s and 1970s. By the 1980s white and blacks who had any money left the city (for the most part) leaving it mostly filled with the poor and uneducated.

That goes back to the city workers and the expense that they are. The city keeps shrinking so the number of workers needed keeps shrinking, but the people who have run the city don't change. The city council is a full time job, with two staffer and until recently a car, the school board was the same way. When asked about this the usual response is "other large cities are the same", maybe that is true, but Detroit isn't a city of 2,000,000 anymore. Several years ago there was a Free Press article about the Chief of Police's badge costing something like $5000, because it was gold and jewel encrusted, a tradition that had gone back a long time. The city claimed that all the large cities do it, but the free press revealed that all 10 of the top ten US cities (Detroit was 11 at the time) had chief badges that that cost the same or near the same as the lowest level police officer. At one time the big cities did do that kind of thing, but those days were done a long time ago in most places.

The city schools are a mess partly because they have too many of them for the number of students remaining. The district finally closed over half of its schools, but still have many more to go. There were issues of schools with the capacity of 2000, having less than 300 in them. When schools needed to be closed violent school board meetings and angry citizens erupted making an decision unpopular. Combining schools made things worse at some schools because of rival gangs. I worked at a Detroit school with rival gangs and it was a dangerous place (more for students than me). No amount of money or left wing or right wing ideas will ever solve the problem of people who don't care about life and will drag everyone around them down to their level.

Detroit has a culture of victimization, particularly in the black community, where any attempt from an outsider to fix anything is seen as a threat, even of that outsider is black. There are many people who see racism that isn't there. When I worked with black students that was evident in what they thought of things outside Detroit. Back in 2005 we took a large group of 11th grade students, who had good grades, to a water park in the suburbs. One of the girls came up to me on the bus and was freaked out about going to the water park. She had never been out of the city of Detroit and was worried the white people would attack her. I said that their is likely to be other black people there and that the white folks wouldn't bother her. She said she asked me because I was the only white man she knew and I was nice. On the ride home I asked her if any white people gave her or anyone else a hard time. She said that nobody gave her a hard time and she had a lot of fun.

Another story involves a girl and her purse. Purses and backpacks where not allowed in the classrooms and one girl was carrying a purse and I asked her to put it in her locker. She blew up on me and said "all the white girls in this school can carry a purse". I told her there were no white girls in the school, but she said that there was a lot of them. On my prep hour her and I walked around and looked in every classroom; I asked her to count the white females in the school. After going to every class she said she was sorry for causing me trouble and that there were no white girls in the building. Seeing a problem where none existed was something I am sure she learned at home.

When it comes to Fire, Police and EMS in Detroit the problems are two fold. One is a social problem involving EMS. Too many EMS calls are not for an emergency, it is for a free ride to the hospital. This is also a problem in poor rural areas. the fire department spend a lot of time putting out arson fires at abandoned buildings. Firebomb thrown by rival gang and drug dealers is also a common source of Detroit fires. This kind of nonsense ties up resources for legit people who actually need the fire department. There is little money to fix the equipment either, there are lots of trucks out of service The Detroit Fire Boat only has one running engine right now (I don't think that is widely known), if the other goes down the city will be out water side fire service and water rescue.

The Police struggle because the city is so massive and just patrolling it is a big deal. There is all kinds of crazyness. I will share two stories I am familiar with:

I am on the vestry (board of directors) of my church in Detroit so I know a couple of good stories that involve the Detroit Police. Our custodian (who lives at the church) had to call the police once and they told him that it was an invalid address and they wouldn't come to a vacant lot. The church has been on that site (with the same address) since 1861.

A couple of years before that our priest was charged with a misdemeanor for putting up bleachers in our parking lot so children could watch the Thanksgiving parade. A police officer told him he wasn't allowed to put up bleachers on city property without a permit. He explained that the parking lot is property owned by the church since 1858 (which it is), but the officer and his superior said it wasn't and told him to remove the bleachers. When he didn't comply they arrested him. One of our parishioners is a high profile Detroit attorney who gave our priest some fantastic representation. The city eventually dropped the charge because the property did belong to the church and the police were wrong, however the city prosecutor recharged our priest with another crime; storing construction equipment on private property without a permit. After a through investigation by the attorney's investigation team it was found that there was no such law or ordinance on the books in the city of Detroit so the charge was dropped. Without a high powered legal team most people wouldn't beat this wrap, but what it really crazy is that no laws were broken in the first place. You can't charge people for crimes that are not crimes. This incident really made me wonder how many people are charged with things in the city that aren't even against the law. Most people in this situation wouldn't bother getting a legal team and just pay the fine (for something that isn't illegal).



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 103, posted (1 year 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 2868 times:

Detroit has been a complete meltdown. And the scary thing is that there are other cities in the country, while not as massive a failure as detroit, are also similarly in trouble.

The city of Detroit owes money to more than 100,000 creditors.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...kruptcy-with-100000-creditors.html

Detroit is facing $20 billion in debt and unfunded liabilities. That breaks down to more than $25,000 per resident.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/06/...anager-proposes-plan-to-creditors/

Back in 1960, the city of Detroit actually had the highest per-capita income in the entire nation.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/03/23/detroit-is-dying-quickly/

In 1950, there were about 296,000 manufacturing jobs in Detroit. Today, there are less than 27,000.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-19/detroits-demise-one-chart

Between December 2000 and December 2010, 48 percent of the manufacturing jobs in the state of Michigan were lost.

http://www.wnd.com/2011/02/267889/

There are lots of houses available for sale in Detroit right now for $500 or less.

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-ho...-in-detroit-for-500-or-less-2013-7

At this point, there are approximately 78,000 abandoned homes in the city.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...kruptcy-with-100000-creditors.html

About one-third of Detroit's 140 square miles is either vacant or derelict.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-highlight-decline-Motor-City.html

47 percent of the residents of the city of Detroit are functionally illiterate.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/05/...arly-half-of-detroiters-cant-read/

Less than half of the residents of Detroit over the age of 16 are working at this point.

http://www.businessinsider.com/11-ch...own-from-a-peak-over-27-in-2009-10

60 percent of all children in the city of Detroit are living in poverty.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/01/...n-detroit-but-teen-pregnancy-down/

40 percent of the street lights do not work.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...kruptcy-with-100000-creditors.html

Only about a third of the ambulances are running.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...kruptcy-with-100000-creditors.html

Some ambulances in the city of Detroit have been used for so long that they have more than 250,000 miles on them.

http://www.businessinsider.com/11-ch...the-city-can-buy-more-ambulances-5

Two-thirds of the parks in the city of Detroit have been permanently closed down since 2008.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news...tlights-police/index.html?iid=Lead

When you call the police in Detroit, it takes them an average of 58 minutes to respond.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100899901/page/2

The violent crime rate in Detroit is five times higher than the national average.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news...tlights-police/index.html?iid=Lead

The murder rate in Detroit is 11 times higher than it is in New York City.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100414480

Today, police solve less than 10 percent of the crimes that are committed in Detroit.

http://www.businessinsider.com/11-ch...e-less-than-10-percent-of-crimes-3

Crime has gotten so bad in Detroit that even the police are telling people to "enter Detroit at your own risk".

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...ice-enter-detroit-at-your-own-risk

And I don't even want to go into the cultural and corruption issues - Falstaff has done quite nicely on that. But I would remind people that Detroit in the mid 1960s was one of the cities that jumped into LBJ's 'Greate Society' programs with both feet - even winning a few awards for their progressive fervor. I think it was at that point when Detroit started its downward spiral.

From a study done at the University of Central Michigan:

Quote:
the economic programs in Detroit illustrate the frequently cited law of unintended consequences.
http://ebhsoc.org/journal/index.php/journal/article/view/33/30

While skeptics might theorize that the Great Society programs were intended to fail from the beginning, in order to create a permanent dependent class that would always vote Democrat, I prefer to believe that these programs were indeed done with the best of intentions - but simply disastrously naive. Detroit is an excellent example, not only of the damage done to an actual city but culturally as well. As far as I can tell, no segment of society has been impacted more negatively by the 'Great Society' programs than the black community. In the fifties, although blacks were still struggling for equal opportunities and were on the low end of the economic ladder - and definitely suffering from the overt racism that existed at that point, the black family was for the most part strong and stable. Two parent families were the rule, not the exception. They attended church together, had strong moral values, and did not comprise a majority of the prison population. Compare that to the present state of the black community after 50 years of Great Society programs. Our prisons are disproportionately black, unwed mothers and single parent families are the rule, black youths without a strong male role model other than rap stars and basketball players, roam the streets and are drawn into a culture of drugs and crime.

The big question is, how to reverse it. The Welfare reforms of the 90s were a pretty good start, but have been largely overturned in the past few years. But I don't see the moral courage to take corrective action on this from either major party.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 104, posted (1 year 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Falstaff my favorite story about the Detroit Police is the incident that happened last year. A guy had just murdered someone and fled. An hour later he walked into a Fire house in Detroit and told the firemen what he had done and wanted to turn himself in. One of the firemen called 911 and told the dispatcher that they had a guy there who wanted to turn himself in for murder,the dispatcher told the fireman that the DPD had no cars available and couldn't help even though there were police officers investigating the very murder the guy had commited. So, lucky for the dispatcher, the guy spent the next hour heading over police headquarters and turned himself in. Mind you DPD precincts are only open 8 hours a day so the guy had to either walk or take the bus downtown.

[Edited 2013-07-22 09:27:48]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-turn-police-twice-arrested.html


[Edited 2013-07-22 09:44:36]

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8765 posts, RR: 3
Reply 105, posted (1 year 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 2846 times:

Just want to say thanks for the above posts, especially falstaff. You have real stories about what is going on. I was going into the red zone, frothing at the mouth about my theories as usual. I did visit Detroit for a couple days in 2009, and it was interesting, impressive and troubling all at the same time. The downtown is huge like Chicago. The old rail station is amazing. Lots to see.

Detroit leaders had every opportunity -- it was one of the wealthiest cities in the entire world. As such, it is one of the biggest policy utter failures of all time.

You can't feel bad for people like that. You can only learn from how they screwed up.

IMO Detroit can be fixed by total regime change. Pattern all activity/budget like Austin, Texas. That should be the model. Cut everything Austin does not have.

[Edited 2013-07-22 09:42:56]

User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 106, posted (1 year 5 months 15 hours ago) and read 2805 times:
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Quoting dtw9 (Reply 104):
A guy had just murdered someone and fled. An hour later he walked into a Fire house in Detroit and told the firemen what he had done and wanted to turn himself in.

That is a good one. I forgot about that, but that was big deal locally too.

Problems, like the ones Detroit has, are also seen in other places in the state; Flint, Saginaw, Muskegon Heights, Inkster, Ecorse, Hamtramck and Benton Harbor. However outside of Flint you don't hear much about the others because most people have never heard of those towns. Oddly Hamtramck is the odd ball of the group they asked for an Emergency Financial Manager and got it, everyone else fought the EFM.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 105):
I did visit Detroit for a couple days in 2009,

If you make it back give me a shout; we'll go have a beer.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 103):
Today, police solve less than 10 percent of the crimes that are committed in Detroit.

One of the biggest stumbling blocks is few people want to be witnesses. "Snitches get stitches" in the D.


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 103):
In 1950, there were about 296,000 manufacturing jobs in Detroit. Today, there are less than 27,000

That number has dropped all over the country, not just in Detroit.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 103):
There are lots of houses available for sale in Detroit right now for $500 or less.

That is true. I live out by the airport and you can buy a house for less than $10,000 if you want a fixer upper. I know several people who have bought houses in Detroit for $500. I know of a house that sold a few years ago for $400. These neighborhoods aren't safe, but the houses do exist.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 103):
47 percent of the residents of the city of Detroit are functionally illiterate.

I actually thought it was higher. There is an apathy for education by lower economic classes in the area, white and black. One of the reasons for it is because for decades people could get a decent job with no skills. I can't tell you how many people I run into who say that school was a waste of time because they got a great job and their kids think the same way.

When I worked in Detroit we had all kinds of kids who were in bad shape when it came to intellect and it was for all kinds of reasons that would seem odd to most middle class Americans. One of the big issues we had was attendance We also have this issue at the nearly all white school where I teach now, with low income students. We would have students miss 30%-50% of the school year, they would fail and the parent would come in demanding to know why. We actually had high school students who had never been to school before, because they were never enrolled. I remember one student who had a vocabulary of maybe 50 words and 15 of them were swear words, it really was the parent's problem, they never enrolled him in school until 9th grade.

Another issue was an enormous amount of transient students. High Schools have around a 25% turnover, assuming each class is about the same size, but in Detroit we had about a 50% turnover with a small senior class. Not all of those kids dropped out either many just went another school. Students do better when they go to the same high school for four years and follow their classmates all the way through k-12. At the district I work at now about 90% of the students fall into that category. Detroit kids moved around a lot, many lived wherever they could and moved neighborhoods frequently.

Detroit's high school drop out rate needs some explanation because it looks worse than it is. The way Michigan (maybe other states too) measure drop outs is very odd and doesn't make sense. Lets say you have 100 9th graders, in a small high school, by the time their class graduates you have 95 graduates. The average person would look at that and say that school has a 95% graduation rate. Then you go and looks at the data for the school and you see the graduation rate is only 80%, how can that be. 80 kids completed grades 9-12 at the same school and 15 moved from another school, so you lost 20. Maybe none of the 20 dropped out. For a kid to count as a graduate he/she has to start and finish high school at the same school. So a student who moves to a new school, for whatever reason, counts as a drop out. A student who takes more than four years to graduate from high school is considered a drop out, even though they graduated. This year our school graduated two students who took five years to graduate, however the state considers them dropouts and they count against us. Lets say a new student moves into our school district (it happens all the time) from another Michigan school and graduates. He isn't counted in our graduation rate and counts against the school he left. When I worked in Detroit I know I had students who left our school, but went to a different school and graduated, but they counted as drop outs. The high school where I teach now had a 10% dropout rate a couple of years ago, but only two kids actually dropped out of school. The rest were students who's families moved to other towns and states. If Colorado used this same system back in the day I would be considered a drop out too. I moved to Missouri while I was in high school and graduated there.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 107, posted (1 year 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 106):
Oddly Hamtramck is the odd ball of the group they asked for an Emergency Financial Manager and got it, everyone else fought the EFM.

Don't forget Allen Park. They also asked for and received an EFM


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 108, posted (1 year 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

Seems like I touched a nerve.

What really bothers me about the fringe right-wing in control of Michigan right now is they just dissolve local government and assign cronies to run cities and municipalities they deem inadequate. They don't give the people a chance to elect new leadership. They are going for a fascist style of governing. If the state government sees a problem and dissolves the local government and calls new elections, that's one thing. But, for some crony to just go in and do whatever the elitists want is just outrageous.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 109, posted (1 year 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 2787 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 108):
What really bothers me about the fringe right-wing in control of Michigan right now is they just dissolve local government and assign cronies to run cities and municipalities they deem inadequate

They haven't dissolved anything. The local ELECTED officials are still in place. Detroit will hold new ELECTIONS this fall for Council and Mayor as scheduled. The only thing that has changed is someone else holds the purse strings to make sure they get their fiscal house in order. When the balance sheet is corrected full fiscal control is returned to the ELECTED officials

[Edited 2013-07-22 12:17:22]

User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 110, posted (1 year 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 2782 times:
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Quoting dtw9 (Reply 109):
When the balance sheet is corrected full fiscal control is returned to the ELECTED officials

Just like what happened in Ecorse. They got their act together again and the EFM left again.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 108):
they just dissolve local government and assign cronies to run cities and municipalities

no government is dissolved, but a school district can be.

That gets me worked up, but for an entirely different reason. The right (of which I am one) always wants to bring in a charter school that is privately run, but 100% publicly funded. I worked in a charter school and the proponents of them have done a great job fooling the right into supporting them. As a tax payer I would much rather my money be spent on a school with a publicly elected board who's actions can be easily viewed by the public. The scams I saw and was part of in the charter school system make the scams in Detroit public schools seem like nothing, but DPS is on a much larger scale. There are few charter high schools and those schools lose money. The K-8 programs make money and charters are not required, by Michigan law, to have 9-12, like a school district must have. High Schools cost way more to operate than K-8 does. I am a right winger who is VERY pro public education because I've done time the right's answer to public school districts and what I saw was shocking. What the pubic saw was a nice looking school and a brochure full of smiling kids in uniforms. I can't remember the number of politicians who came to visit and we lied to them.

That being said I think Detroit Public Schools needs to be broken down into smaller districts. The district is very top heavy and corruption is or at least was everywhere. A smaller district is easier to manage. The small district where I work couldn't have the corruption DPS does; it would be uncovered very easily



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 111, posted (1 year 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 2769 times:

Like I've said before, it's been a quite a while since my residency in Detroit (admittedly mostly in immediate neighboring Detroit suburb), but I must say that after my several decades of close observation I can only think that those decades of Detroit minuses will take MANY years of restructuring to even start to achieve somewhat of a positive balance.

Some good ideas and suggestions from many on this forum; I only hope that there will be progress made. A while ago I think I made a comment that I had no desire to even revist the area, but only today I am formulating plans to zoom up yonder to join buddies to fly out to the Reno air races in Sept. My few days stay in the Detroit area may be positvely memorable or maybe painful or maybe both. Who knows? Hope there are user-friendly improvements to DTW. all best...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 112, posted (1 year 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 108):
What really bothers me about the fringe right-wing in control of Michigan right now is they just dissolve local government and assign cronies to run cities and municipalities they deem inadequate. They don't give the people a chance to elect new leadership. They are going for a fascist style of governing. If the state government sees a problem and dissolves the local government and calls new elections, that's one thing. But, for some crony to just go in and do whatever the elitists want is just outrageous.

I love it how some people are so desperate to blame others for Detroit. The mayor has been a (D) since 1961. The last Republican to sit on the City Council was elected in 1970. It has been 100% Democrat-run for the past 30 years, during which Detroit has been in a consistent death-spiral. Now, finally, someone is put in charge of the pursestrings to try to stop the bleeding, and it's all his fault.

:D

We ought to call you Badhdad Seb.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (1 year 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
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And here in Europe we have the usual banks loaning Detroit that were loaning to Greece! *sigh*


Flying high and low
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 114, posted (1 year 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 112):
We ought to call you Badhdad Seb

  

Seb is obviously a poster child for what is wrong with Detroit.

Okie

[Edited 2013-07-22 15:16:46]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 115, posted (1 year 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 108):
What really bothers me about the fringe right-wing in control of Michigan right now is they just dissolve local government and assign cronies to run cities and municipalities they deem inadequate. They don't give the people a chance to elect new leadership. They are going for a fascist style of governing. If the state government sees a problem and dissolves the local government and calls new elections, that's one thing. But, for some crony to just go in and do whatever the elitists want is just outrageous.

And left wing fringes are saying stupid things too, stupid things that are even way left of you. I doubt any of that will happen. And is the "fringe" in control or are they just a fringe of the controlling party? Just because a party member of the controlling party says something doesn't mean the others will go along with it, especially if that one party member really is fringe



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 116, posted (1 year 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 103):
But I would remind people that Detroit in the mid 1960s was one of the cities that jumped into LBJ's 'Greate Society' programs with both feet

And now it seems they are the first to reach the finish line.

I agree with Jeremy Piven in this commercial, although even this phrase should be retired as the team isn't what they used to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1BFfTf8MNE



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 117, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 108):
What really bothers me about the fringe right-wing in control of Michigan right now is they just dissolve local government and assign cronies to run cities and municipalities they deem inadequate.

Didn't Governor Jennifer Granholm (Democrat) do that as well?

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 111):
I am formulating plans to zoom up yonder to join buddies to fly out to the Reno air races in Sept.

Stop by the Falstaff museum in Taylor, MI while you're up there.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 118, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

By the way, have they offered to hand the city over to Omni Consumer Products (OCP) yet? Maybe Robocop can fix it.

Funny how that dumb movie seems prophetic now.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6731 posts, RR: 24
Reply 119, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2571 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 103):
As far as I can tell, no segment of society has been impacted more negatively by the 'Great Society' programs than the black community. In the fifties, although blacks were still struggling for equal opportunities and were on the low end of the economic ladder - and definitely suffering from the overt racism that existed at that point, the black family was for the most part strong and stable. Two parent families were the rule, not the exception. They attended church together, had strong moral values, and did not comprise a majority of the prison population. Compare that to the present state of the black community after 50 years of Great Society programs. Our prisons are disproportionately black, unwed mothers and single parent families are the rule, black youths without a strong male role model other than rap stars and basketball players, roam the streets and are drawn into a culture of drugs and crime.

The problem with your statement here is that there is NO connection with the Great Society programs. There certainly has been a decline in the traditional two parent black family, but you fail to make any connection to the Great Society programs.

You totally ignore how white flight left many blacks trapped in declining inner cities with few economic opportunities. You totally ignore how a flood of illegal drugs and the gangs that go with it, tore at inner city black families. These are the elements that tore black families apart, not Great Society programs.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 120, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2539 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 117):
Didn't Governor Jennifer Granholm (Democrat) do that as well?

Yes, the EFM law has been around for sometime and there were EFMs under her watch, such as in Ecorse. However the old EFM law didn't allow the EFM to mess around with union contracts.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 117):
Stop by the Falstaff museum in Taylor, MI while you're up there.

Stop by for a beer!

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 119):
You totally ignore how white flight left many blacks trapped in declining inner cities with few economic opportunities

In Detroit you also had black flight. Massive amounts of black people moved to the suburbs too.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 121, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 117):
Quoting falstaff (Reply 120):

With Falstaff Beer's history in Missouri (and some other areas) one wonders why the Falstaff Museum is in Taylor, MI. Maybe I had blinders on all this time, but I didn't even realise it was in Taylor until you guys mentioned it.

Tell you what I REALLY miss; the Stroh's Brewery tours in downtown Detroit. Guests were given free beer AND a crystal glass with fired enamel Stroh's crest as souvenirs. A professional bartender friend was close with one of the managers and got me a case of these wonderful glasses. Unfortuanately only one survives today. Just another fond memory of Detroit. all best...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 122, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2512 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 121):
With Falstaff Beer's history in Missouri (and some other areas) one wonders why the Falstaff Museum is in Taylor, MI. Maybe I had blinders on all this time, but I didn't even realise it was in Taylor until you guys mentioned it.

        
I was referring to Falstaff's house in Taylor.  
It's not an official museum but it mine as well be considering all the vintage Falstaff artifacts.  
Quoting falstaff (Reply 120):
In Detroit you also had black flight. Massive amounts of black people moved to the suburbs too.

That is true. Same thing in my hometown of Gary, Indiana (A mini-Detroit)
Our neighborhood (Miller Beach) was almost predominately White when they bought our house in 1969.
Many other Blacks had moved in shortly after but were all professionals and recent first generation college graduates. Most were engineers, doctors, nurses, teachers and managers at the steel mill. One of our neighbors was an Anchorman on Channel 7 news in Chicago. Neighborhood was kept very nice, clean and safe, even when the neighborhood became majority Black.
Then when the mid 1980s rolled around, things started going downhill. After US steel laid off 70% of it's workforce, many people lost their jobs. Many of the well to do Blacks moved out and people from other parts of Gary started to move in. They were low-income and brought all their ghetto ways with them - crime.
We moved out in 1984.
Yes White flight does exist but so does Black flight. Just because Whites move out doesn't necessarily mean the neighborhood goes down hill. Another example is Ladera Heights in Los Angeles. That was majority White when new back in the early 1960s. Upper income Blacks moved there in 1970s and it's still a very expensive, exclusive neighborhood. Homes start at $700,000 in Ladera Heights.



No point in pointing fingers at Detroit. Many other cities are on the verge of bankruptcy; New York, Chicago, San Diego and San Jose just to name a few.
Cities that have already filled bankruptcy is San Bernardino, Vallejo, Stockton, possibly Compton and Watsonville just to name a few.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 123, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2493 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 122):

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 121):
With Falstaff Beer's history in Missouri (and some other areas) one wonders why the Falstaff Museum is in Taylor, MI. Maybe I had blinders on all this time, but I didn't even realise it was in Taylor until you guys mentioned it.

        
I was referring to Falstaff's house in Taylor.  
It's not an official museum but it mine as well be considering all the vintage Falstaff artifacts

It is a museum.... I have over 200 lighted and nonlighted signs, plus much much more.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 124, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 119):
You totally ignore how white flight left many blacks trapped in declining inner cities with few economic opportunities.

How dare people with a little bit of money leave a crappy place for a better one!



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 125, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 122):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 122):

Good post, 'Fly; from what I've experienced in several areas, this seems to be quite true.

Living up yonder for so many years, I still can't personally recall an "us vs. them" confrontation. The "flight" was a response to *bad stuff* but then got particularly and elevatedly racial when mayor Coleman Young started spouting off very publicly. Not to say that his predicessor was much better on the other side; IMHO, he was an asshole, and more than likely a racist too.

Wow, you mention Gary, AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN. I can remember about a million years ago myself and buddy Dave driving an AT-6B from Pontiac, MI to Oshkosh and back for two years of airshows. Me, being a "pussy" didn't want to program the route over so much waters over Lake Michigan in a single and we flew the "Gary" route from our directed ORD wedding cake. Point is, we observed incredible gray and grayer streaks flowing out of the Gary complexes into the lake that went on north beyond where we could even see @ CAVU. Last trip was years later as a pax on an airliner...looks much better. Here's to Gary for being much better, hopefully in all ways now.. Sorry for rambling...all best ...jack

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 119):

Well; "blacks being trapped"? Guess that sort of soothes previous conjectures in opening posts that the feeways are/were of major significance in population movement as per Detroit City proper. No? regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 126, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

Some how, someway, "Macedonian Airlines from (Greece)" krept into my previous post #125 and I not only do not know how that happened but have been unsuccessful in trying to change it. Sorry. all best...jack (P.S. never been to Greece)


all best; jack
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6731 posts, RR: 24
Reply 127, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
How dare people with a little bit of money leave a crappy place for a better one!

I'm not necessarily blaming them for leaving, I'm just pointing to the fact that this mass exodus from cities did extreme damage to those that were left behind in the city (predominantly blacks). Previously robust inner cities were left empty and lost much of their economic activity leaving blacks with little opportunity. This did far more damage to African American families than the Great Society programs.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 125):
Well; "blacks being trapped"? Guess that sort of soothes previous conjectures in opening posts that the feeways are/were of major significance in population movement as per Detroit City proper. No? regards

Freeways certainly enabled the white flight, but they weren't the cause per se. However, the freeways didn't work so well for blacks because they either couldn't afford or were not allowed to buy homes in most of the suburbs.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 128, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 119):
There certainly has been a decline in the traditional two parent black family, but you fail to make any connection to the Great Society programs.

Let's get rid of the word "black" in your statement. There are many, many white, Asian, Latino, Native one-parent families in this country who need Great Society programs to merely scrape by every month. This ties in nicely about another thread on race relations in this country. We still see "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to race. There are other races in poor areas. But, we are shown blacks only. We are told blacks are the welfare queens. Not outright, but it is HEAVILY implied.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 129, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
There are many, many white, Asian, Latino, Native one-parent families in this country who need Great Society programs to merely scrape by every month.

The Great Society programs are a failure. Almost all of the national debt issues can be traced to two sources: New Deal and Great Society. That's what has driven the national debt to astronomical levels.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
We still see "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to race.

Not race, but how can you not have an "us vs. them" mentality when I make money and other people get a piece of it for doing nothing? I'm sick of funding horseshit social programs.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
But, we are shown blacks only. We are told blacks are the welfare queens. Not outright, but it is HEAVILY implied.

Uh oh. Fox News hid the white people from you so you should go find them.

If you're looking for poor, stupid white people I have a good idea where to find some.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 130, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpictu...bankrupt-detroit-gop-model-america

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
Almost all of the national debt issues can be traced to two sources: New Deal and Great Society. That's what has driven the national debt to astronomical levels.

Couldn't be the war machine. It is never the war machine. Iraq and Afghanistan and bases in Korea, Japan, Germany and billions of dollars poured into war and fighting has never ever driven the debt to astronomical levels. Ever. Right?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
but how can you not have an "us vs. them" mentality when I make money and other people get a piece of it for doing nothing? I'm sick of funding horseshit social programs.

So, you admit you would rather see people dying from starvation and smallpox. There is your "compassionate conservative" for you!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
If you're looking for poor, stupid white people I have a good idea where to find some

Wal-Mart. As cashiers. Working three jobs because "trickle down economics" gave all the money to the top.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1933 posts, RR: 10
Reply 131, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 121):
Tell you what I REALLY miss; the Stroh's Brewery tours in downtown Detroit. Guests were given free beer AND a crystal glass with fired enamel Stroh's crest as souvenirs.

If you're into brewery tours and are ever in the GTA, I highly recommend the Steam Whistle Brewery tour. The brewery is in an old roundhouse in downtown Toronto, only steps from the CN Tower and walking distance from YTZ. It's only $10, you get a sample before the tour, a bottle during the tour, and a sample afterwards...and on your way out you get a gift which is a really nice tall glass. Lots of history to be had, and the beer is pretty damn good too  
Quoting seb146 (Reply 130):
http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpictu...bankrupt-detroit-gop-model-america

So the guy with the degree in homeopathic medicine, conspiracy theories, isolationist views, and cushy job with the anti-American RT is blaming conservatives for Detroit's failures? Who woulda thunk it   

Quoting seb146 (Reply 130):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
If you're looking for poor, stupid white people I have a good idea where to find some

Wal-Mart. As cashiers.


If stupid, white people aren't working as Walmart cashiers, who will?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
Almost all of the national debt issues can be traced to two sources: New Deal and Great Society. That's what has driven the national debt to astronomical levels.

New Deal and Great Society may have gotten the ball rolling, but America did a good job digging the whole as deep as it is by going head first into wars they shouldn't have over the past 30 years.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 132, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 131):
So the guy with the degree in homeopathic medicine, conspiracy theories, isolationist views, and cushy job with the anti-American RT is blaming conservatives for Detroit's failures? Who woulda thunk i

Oh, heavens! A different view point! The nerve of someone having a different view point! He is a traitor!

Actually, the guy wants everyone to have education and good jobs. But, ignore that. He does not hold the fringe right-wing view, so he is awful, right?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 131):
If stupid, white people aren't working as Walmart cashiers, who will?

Smart white (any race, but let's be racists about the whole thing) people who can't get jobs because their jobs were shipped overseas. The jobs they were told would be here for good because they have degrees. The right does not get it. We are drowning in debt for education of things we were told we should do to get ahead.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 133, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2354 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 130):
Couldn't be the war machine. It is never the war machine. Iraq and Afghanistan and bases in Korea, Japan, Germany and billions of dollars poured into war and fighting has never ever driven the debt to astronomical levels. Ever. Right?

Not according to Nate Silver, who is far from being a conservative:
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...rowth-in-government-spending/?_r=0

Quoting seb146 (Reply 130):
So, you admit you would rather see people dying from starvation and smallpox.

No, but keeping people from starving isn't the government's job.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 130):
There is your "compassionate conservative" for you!

Paying for people with taxes is not compassion anymore than giving money to a homeless man who robs me would be compassionate. If I took all of your stuff, sold it on Ebay, and gave the proceeds to a food bank it wouldn't make me compassionate, it would make me a criminal.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 130):
Wal-Mart. As cashiers. Working three jobs because "trickle down economics" gave all the money to the top.

I was going to say my hometown, but Walmart works too.

Secondly, nobody "gave" money to the top, they got it themselves. I don't know where that narrative came from, but it has no basis in reality.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 131):
New Deal and Great Society may have gotten the ball rolling, but America did a good job digging the whole as deep as it is by going head first into wars they shouldn't have over the past 30 years.

See the link above. The balloon is not defense spending. Wars are temporary. They'll make a dent but get ironed out. What the New Deal and Great Society social programs did was far worse: they put malignant tumors in the budget that grow out of control. A war is like falling off a bike. Liberal social programs are like chain smoking.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1933 posts, RR: 10
Reply 134, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 132):
He does not hold the fringe right-wing view, so he is awful, right?

No, I'd say he's awful because he is featured on an anti-American news source and clearly believes in closing America's borders to FDI. If there's one thing Detroit could use right now it's investment, no matter where it comes from.

Also, countering the fringe right wing with a dude who is clearly the fringe left wing doesn't do your argument any justice. I couldn't even finish watching that clip.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 132):
Smart white [...] people who can't get jobs because their jobs were shipped overseas.

Thus leaving the low-IQ people to do what?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 132):
any race, but let's be racists about the whole thing

Hey, I'm not the one that said stupid, white people could be found working as cashiers at Walmart.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 132):
The jobs they were told would be here for good because they have degrees.

If they blindly believed that they would always have jobs because someone said so, then I don't believe they qualify as "smart".

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 133):
Wars are temporary. They'll make a dent but get ironed out.

I don't consider 24% of the total expenditure to be "ironed out". Growth in military spending is almost in line with the growth of entitlement programs according to the first graphic, so I wouldn't necessarily say one is far worse than the other.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 135, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2340 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 125):
Wow, you mention Gary, IN.
Point is, we observed incredible gray and grayer streaks flowing out of the Gary complexes into the lake that went on north beyond where we could even see @ CAVU. Last trip was years later as a pax on an airliner...looks much better. Here's to Gary for being much better, hopefully in all ways now..

No, no, no!   
Gary is much worse today.
The gray and grayer streaks you saw was from a working factory back when people had jobs.
Sure things are cleaner today. Not because anyone cleaned up their act. The factories closed, crime went up and ran away decent people.
Now those 'evil' corporate factories aren't emitting CO2 in to the atmosphere, there is lot's of government funding for public schools, the few jobs that are left are union protected, there is lots of greenspace, lots of affordable housing, Planned Parenthood clinics, single-female headed households led by strong independent women that don't need a man.
Places like Detroit, MI and Gary, IN should be considered a Liberal Utopia, right?

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 126):
(P.S. never been to Greece)

I've been there.  
Like Gary, IN, has lots of old crumbling buildings but people pay money to see the old crumbling buildings in Greece.
Greece is much safer and the women are prettier.
BTW, Detroit and Gary, IN used to have a large Greek immigrant population. I went to the same school as Mr. Papadopoulos (Alex Karras) for 1 year.
(30 years later)

Quoting seb146 (Reply 132):
Oh, heavens! A different view point! The nerve of someone having a different view point! He is a traitor!

You feel the same for those at Fox? Newsmax?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 132):
Smart white (any race, but let's be racists about the whole thing) people who can't get jobs because their jobs were shipped overseas.

Many 'smart' people earned degrees in silly liberal arts subjects. I live overseas now and I have yet to see job openings for expats that have degrees in Art History, Women's Studies, Blacks Studies, Poetry, Dance, Activist Studies, etc.
The Engineers I know in the US all have jobs. There is still a need for nurses and there is always a need for Doctors.
We should expect to see a lot more new doctors now that we have Obamacare...
Oh wait, we ended up just getting new IRS agents for Obamacare. 



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6731 posts, RR: 24
Reply 136, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2302 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
The Great Society programs are a failure.

Yet every industrialized nation has them in some form. The only countries that have no social safety nets are typically third world nations. Gee, I wonder why?

The Great Society programs could easily be fixed with some relatively minor tweaks. However, the programs are fundamental to having a modern, industrialized nation. Just because they need updates doesn't make them a failure.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 137, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 126):
Some how, someway, "Macedonian Airlines from (Greece)" krept into my previous post #125

It's just a quirk of this site. It's trying to insert the codes for the "hover" tags any time it sees two or three capital letters together, like DTW. Some times it guesses wrong and messes up the post. It's something you have no control over.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 127):
I'm not necessarily blaming them for leaving, I'm just pointing to the fact that this mass exodus from cities did extreme damage to those that were left behind in the city (predominantly blacks). Previously robust inner cities were left empty and lost much of their economic activity leaving blacks with little opportunity.

Indeed, and this happened in pretty much every city, large or small. Once the post WW2 boom hit and so many gained mobility the suburbs shot up.

These days it seems trendy to want to live in a city. I see this with my younger co-workers. Hopefully this means that once Detroit gets its fiscal act in order a lot more rebuilding and repopulation can happen.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
Let's get rid of the word "black" in your statement. There are many, many white, Asian, Latino, Native one-parent families in this country who need Great Society programs to merely scrape by every month.

Indeed, yet we see the US Congress do its best to cut back SNAP whilst continuing to fund agri-business, sigh.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
We still see "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to race.

And wealth.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
Almost all of the national debt issues can be traced to two sources: New Deal and Great Society.

Bull crap. Explain the huge growth in national debut during the Reagan years at the same time there were no increases in social programs yet massive tax cuts for the wealthy.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 138, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2289 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 135):
Many 'smart' people earned degrees in silly liberal arts subjects

Like computer sciences. And childhood education. And accounting. Those silly liberal arts subjects.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 135):
You feel the same for those at Fox? Newsmax?

The opinion pages I don't agree with, but they have their opinion. Problem is, when people present those opinions as fact. I was simply posting an opinion. Although the "open minded conservatives" see it very, very differently.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 137):
And wealth.

When the wealthy are lobbying to get rules changed that favor them and only them, yes. There was not a wealth problem before corporations started taking over the government in the 1980s. There were the wealthy who anyone could work hard and become, and there was everyone else. Now, there are the wealthy who no one has any chance of becoming unless one is born into it, and everyone else.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 139, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2280 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
If you're looking for poor, stupid white people I have a good idea where to find some.

Right next door to me. A group of unemployed high school dropouts who smoke on the front porch all day and get in domestic disputes that involve the cops at least twice a week. They are a group of four adults and all useless.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 134):
Thus leaving the low-IQ people to do what?

To suck off the government and keep the cops busy.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 135):
The gray and grayer streaks you saw was from a working factory back when people had jobs.
Sure things are cleaner today. Not because anyone cleaned up their act. The factories closed, crime went up and ran away decent people.

Many on the left would sell out your job to clean the air. Many people in the modern left movement don't give a crap about the workers (unlike the old days when it was all about the workers), it is all about the planet. Many of those people could care less about you, until you become a ward of the state.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 135):
Many 'smart' people earned degrees in silly liberal arts subjects. I live overseas now and I have yet to see job openings for expats that have degrees in Art History, Women's Studies, Blacks Studies, Poetry, Dance, Activist Studies, etc.

My school had a graduate last year who was going to some lefty college in New York to earn a degree in Hipster Studies. That says unemployed angry person all over it.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 138):
Like computer sciences. And childhood education. And accounting. Those silly liberal arts subjects.

I am in the education business and we need less people in the field, at least in Michigan. There are so many people with elementary ed degrees that there is a surplus of them and they drive down the wages for others. Most of the news ones will take any job they can get and likely will be laid off year after year. Too many people want to be elementary teachers, but there are too many people in the field.

Computer science..... Back when I was in school that is what everyone was told to go in to, now all those jobs seem to go off shore.

[Edited 2013-07-24 08:13:04]


My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40066 posts, RR: 74
Reply 140, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 138):
Like computer sciences.

That's not a liberal arts degree. It's a science and requires advance mathematics.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12957 posts, RR: 25
Reply 141, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 139):
Computer science..... Back when I was in school that is what everyone was told to go in to, now all those jobs seem to go off shore.

A lot of the back end stuff has gone offshore, but there's still a huge demand for good skills in the right locations, mostly Silicon Valley and to a lesser degree, the Boston 128 belt.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 140):
That's not a liberal arts degree. It's a science and requires advance mathematics.

In the olden days (60s/70s) comp sci was partnered in most unis with the mathematics departments and was in the liberal arts space. Pretty much from the 80s onward it mostly moved to the engineering space.

As for advanced math, for most comp-sci folks, what I'd call advanced mathematics isn't used that much. I had courses in logic and computability theory in my MSCS degree, but there was far more advanced mathematics (advanced calculus, linear mathematics, discrete mathematics, etc) in my BSEE degree. Clearly there are some specializations that end up being highly mathematical, but i'd say that ends up being maybe 5-10% of the people that call themselves computer scientists and/or software engineers, if not less.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 142, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 136):
Yet every industrialized nation has them in some form.

How many of them are losing jobs and money to more competitive locales?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 136):
The Great Society programs could easily be fixed with some relatively minor tweaks.

Like taking more of someone else's money? John Fogerty was right.

Quote:
And when you ask them, "How much should we give?"
Ooh, they only answer More! more! more! yoh,
Quoting Revelation (Reply 137):
And wealth.

How can there not be when liberal politics have taking someone else's money as a major aspect? You think I'm going to happily play along while people come for my money?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 137):
Explain the huge growth in national debut during the Reagan years at the same time there were no increases in social programs yet massive tax cuts for the wealthy.

A lot of that was making up for Ford and Carter era neglect of the military. And you didn't see people complaining about all the Americans that didn't die in Desert Storm.

The economy of the 1980s was pretty good all told, so social spending is most certainly not a prerequisite for a strong economy.

You might also remember something referred to as the "Peace Dividend." There is no such thing as a welfare dividend. That money is gone.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 143, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2192 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 142):
Like taking more of someone else's money

How would getting rid of all benefits make things better in Appalachia?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 142):
How can there not be when liberal politics have taking someone else's money as a major aspect? You think I'm going to happily play along while people come for my money?

Again with the willingness to let bridges crumble, military scrounge for parts, mid-air collisions all to give you a few bucks.

How much does Social Security add to the deficit?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 144, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2172 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 143):
How would getting rid of all benefits make things better in Appalachia?

It wouldn't, but then, having benefits really hasn't helped them. The continual growth in entitlement spending flies in the face of how liberals sell it. If the idea is to give people the leg up they need to pull themselves out of poverty, why is the bill going up rather than down? Seems like we're getting nothing for our money, unless you're on the rolls in which case you're getting our money for nothing.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 143):
Again with the willingness to let bridges crumble, military scrounge for parts, mid-air collisions all to give you a few bucks.

Show me specifically where I said I was willing to do that? In fact, I specifically say that I'm not willing to do that which is why it's all the more important to gut useless social programs to give taxpayers their money back and have resources to do the things government should actually be doing.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 143):
How much does Social Security add to the deficit?

Doesn't matter how much it adds, it's still a scam.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 145, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 144):
If the idea is to give people the leg up they need to pull themselves out of poverty, why is the bill going up rather than down?

Because corporations are sending jobs overseas. Look back to the 1970s and even the 1980s when there were good jobs in this country. All because we workers demand a living wage. Corporations refuse to give us that. They just want cheap labor. Labor willing to work 17 hour days for pennies an hour.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 144):
Seems like we're getting nothing for our money, unless you're on the rolls in which case you're getting our money for nothing.

Yeah... Except unemployment increases it's payback anywhere from 70c to $1.90
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...nemployment-benefits-boost-econom/

And food stamps nearly doubles
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...ill-without-food-stamps/?mobile=nc

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 144):
Show me specifically where I said I was willing to do that?

Every post you ever make you complain about the poor people stealing your money.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 144):
Doesn't matter how much it adds, it's still a scam.

So, when I take money out of my pay to put in a savings for the future, it is a scam?

BTW, the answer is ZERO!! Social Security adds ZERO to the deficit. It is a stand alone item that funds itself.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 146, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 145):
BTW, the answer is ZERO!! Social Security adds ZERO to the deficit. It is a stand alone item that funds itself.

I think it's pretty much unanimous (from what I've heard) that SS has massive problems, from both the Democrats' and the Republicans' standpoints. The question is what we do with it



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 147, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2153 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 145):
Look back to the 1970s and even the 1980s when there were good jobs in this country.

There still are if you have a useful skill. Doing something that a relatively uneducated foreigner can do just as well at a lower price is going to mean you have a hard time on the market. Plenty of American professionals do just fine, it just isn't the ones who managed to fight their way through high school and get jobs at the local factory. (Although a college education is not mandatory for success)

A business wouldn't deliver pizzas in a Ferrari, so if all you know how to do is be the pizza boy you shouldn't expect seat time in a Ferrari.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 145):
Every post you ever make you complain about the poor people stealing your money.

Infrastructure, defense and emergency services do not fall into that category. I don't know if you just ignore it or if you genuinely have trouble reading, but it's right there for everyone to see.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 145):
So, when I take money out of my pay to put in a savings for the future, it is a scam?

No, that's a great idea. I do it, and every financially responsible person should as well.

Problem is that Social Security doesn't do that at all. Your Social Security money doesn't go into savings, it goes right out to other older people to whom Social Security owes benefits. Then you just have to hope that when you are owed Social Security benefits there is enough money flowing in from younger workers who are paying into the system to cover your benefits. It takes your money today and promises to pay you your money plus X tomorrow. Then tomorrow it takes your money plus X from someone else and promises them an amount equal your money plus X plus Y a little later on. The problem is that eventually you either run out of "someone elses"and/or you have to take a large amount of money from them to cover what you've already promised to earlier participants.

If you've ever wandered "down the dial" to CNBC this sort of arrangement might seem familiar: it's a Ponzi Scheme.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 148, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 147):
If you've ever wandered "down the dial" to CNBC this sort of arrangement might seem familiar: it's a Ponzi Scheme.

And for some reason, when the government does it, Democrats think it's perfectly fine. I never could understand that. Why was it bad for Bernie Maddoff, but if done on a national scale, no problem?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6731 posts, RR: 24
Reply 149, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2131 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 147):
Your Social Security money doesn't go into savings, it goes right out to other older people to whom Social Security owes benefits.

False. Most years Social Security has produced a surplus. That surplus was used for everything but Social Security.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 147):
Doing something that a relatively uneducated foreigner can do just as well at a lower price is going to mean you have a hard time on the market.

But what happens when the foreigners take most of the jobs that require education too? In not too long, most engineering jobs will be gone oversees. All those folks with fancy Aerospace Engineering degrees will have skills that are no more useful than the fry cook at McDonalds. What then?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 148):
And for some reason, when the government does it, Democrats think it's perfectly fine. I never could understand that.

Because it's not a Ponzi scheme if managed properly and not raided to pay for other things.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15831 posts, RR: 27
Reply 150, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 148):
And for some reason, when the government does it, Democrats think it's perfectly fine. I never could understand that.

There are two types of people who will promise guaranteed returns with no risk and do it with a straight face: Social Security proponents and scam artists.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 148):
Why was it bad for Bernie Maddoff, but if done on a national scale, no problem?

What we are beginning to realize is that it is a problem and that, other than phasing it out, any "solution" would really be a band aid. Really, some private Ponzi schemes start out as relatively well intentioned band aids anyway: just take some new money to cover that investor's interest and make it up later.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 149):
False. Most years Social Security has produced a surplus. That surplus was used for everything but Social Security.

Just like fund managers who decide they can use their surplus for a sports car.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 149):
What then?

Do what we've always done: invent the next thing. Unless you can enforce minimum wage in China and India. (They'll do that themselves. Forty years ago people said the same things about Japan.)

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 149):
Because it's not a Ponzi scheme if managed properly

So they could stop taking FICA tomorrow and still pay everyone what they're owed based on their previous contributions? If the answer is "no" then it's a Ponzi scheme. If you need to keep taking new money from investors to support obligations, then you're running a Ponzi Scheme.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 151, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 149):
Because it's not a Ponzi scheme if managed properly and not raided to pay for other things.

Your are a few decades behind the curve on that statement.

How about back to Detroit.

The Federal Judge overruled the Detroit judge (assume Wayne County) that the Unions got to declare that bankruptcy is unconstitutional. The Federal Judge said all challenges will go through his court, which is normal protocol I would think.
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