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Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/20/st...ays-more-than-work-in-most-states/



Another case of why we have a ton of people who will not work. I do not blame them, why should they? They are being screwed over in life, so they in turn screw the system. I have to wonder why anyone would be surprised. It is human nature to take advantage, as we see with corporations, and other business people. Notice this study is by the Cato Institute.


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
196 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3085 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

Interesting. With the exception of a few states it looks a lot like the 2012 electoral map.


Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 1):
Interesting. With the exception of a few states it looks a lot like the 2012 electoral map.

I would not doubt it. You cannot beat free stuff. The Republicans give out free stuff to the wealthy, and the corporations. The Democrats are wiser, they give out frees stuff to the voters. Who is smarter?



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

That pretty well demonstrates a need to change minimum wage and employer costs. It is pure folly that employers are stuck with the financial burden of nanny care and that they need to use that relief to pay above the poverty line. Otherwise you are going to exceed this grow even higher.

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
That pretty well demonstrates a need to change minimum wage and employer costs. It is pure folly that employers are stuck with the financial burden of nanny care and that they need to use that relief to pay above the poverty line. Otherwise you are going to exceed this grow even higher.

I most certainly agree, something has to change. The system is rigged. Whose side is the winner and loser? We are all the losers, except the wealthy of course.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5127 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I do not blame them, why should they?

I thought you were against greed? You dislike the fact that I think I should be able to keep more of the money that I actually earn rather than see it go to taxes, but you don't blame people for keeping themselves on welfare to make a few bucks more?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5114 times:

Makes a strong argument to eliminate or discontinue welfare.

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5106 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
Notice this study is by the Cato Institute.

Red flag. Right-wing think tank with an agenda. I would take this study with a large grain of salt.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5096 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
I thought you were against greed? You dislike the fact that I think I should be able to keep more of the money that I actually earn rather than see it go to taxes, but you don't blame people for keeping themselves on welfare to make a few bucks more?

Distortion, you miss the point. When the government will pay you more for not working, because of the greed of corporations, I do not blame them. This will change only when the system of exploitation ends here, it will only get worse, so be ready to pay for it. I paid for 42 years, you have a long way to go. Enjoy the ride.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5094 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 6):
Makes a strong argument to eliminate or discontinue welfare.

It will not, cannot happen, we will always have welfare in this world of the haves and have not's. The Capitalist system breeds welfare. Thank goodness we have it.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5093 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
Red flag. Right-wing think tank with an agenda. I would take this study with a large grain of salt.

Correct, That is why I thought it wise to point that out. We know they are not always truthful in their articles, as all people with agendas are.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5086 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 6):
Makes a strong argument to eliminate or discontinue welfare.

Time to cut off the junkie.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
When the government will pay you more for not working, because of the greed of corporations, I do not blame them.

The problem is that the government overpays so you should blame them. You don't blame them because the reality conflicts with your ass backwards, "gimme free stuff" agenda.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
This will change only when the system of exploitation ends here,

I pay the taxes of 1.6 people, partly so others can make money by not working, and you think it's the people getting free money who are being exploited?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5061 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 6):
Makes a strong argument to eliminate or discontinue welfare.

Or, better, to raise the minimum wage.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7440 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5025 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):

I pay the taxes of 1.6 people, partly so others can make money by not working, and you think it's the people getting free money who are being exploited?

Obviously you don't pay enough, you shopuld be paying the taxes of 2 people and be happy that you're helping those less fortuinate than yourself.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
Obviously you don't pay enough, you shopuld be paying the taxes of 2 people and be happy that you're helping those less fortuinate than yourself.

If I feel the need to help people, I'll help people. My (theoretical) millionth dollar is infinitely more important to me than some trailer dweller's first.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2615 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4955 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Time to cut off the junkie.

I have a friend that works in one of the social welfare offices here in Roanoke. Every once and a while I will go down there and meet him for lunch. I am always amazed at the line-up of pregnant women waiting to get in.
He says they just don't want to work, so they get pregnant and come get the freebie coupons. Multiply this by millions and you can see why the system is broken! Badly! They just keep on having babies and those of us who pay taxes keep on paying the tab. What fun!  



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

You have to be careful with studies like this one.

This is the fellow who identifies Social Security, the Veterans Administration, military retirement and civilian federal pensions as 'entitlement' programs and includes them in his figures.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4936 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
Notice this study is by the Cato Institute.

Red flag. Right-wing think tank with an agenda. I would take this study with a large grain of salt.

   Not only right wing think tank, but "Daily Caller" is openly to the right itself. I think a fair bit of salt is required.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
You have to be careful with studies like this one.

This is the fellow who identifies Social Security, the Veterans Administration, military retirement and civilian federal pensions as 'entitlement' programs and includes them in his figures.

  



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4936 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
Badly! They just keep on having babies and those of us who pay taxes keep on paying the tab. What fun!

So what's your choice? Cut off welfare? Abortion, Eugenics?


http://scientopia.org/blogs/authorit...doesnt-pay-more-than-minimum-wage/

People do have an incentive to work under minimum wage, especially under Cato's Normal family scenario.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineSmittyone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 18):
So what's your choice? Cut off welfare? Abortion, Eugenics?

Posing the question this way seems to hold the rest of us hostage to the consequences of a few people's poor decisions, doesn't it? I don't have a complete answer, but providing a financial incentive for the kind of behavior that we don't want to see (planned or unplanned pregnancy without a way to support the child) is not much of a solution either.

Would this kind of pregnancy - if it is indeed the issue that it is being presented to be - become less common if people knew that their only option other than starvation would become giving the child up for adoption?

That may sound hard hearted but I don't think it's any more cruel than having kids that you're not in a position to raise properly in the first place. Or any more cruel than taking money from one person - for which they have surrendered the most precious and finite resource they have (time) - and giving it to someone else under these particular circumstances.

I understand that accidents happen but I'm responding to the premise that some segment of society is deliberately having children in order to collect a check. I have no data on how widespread that practice actually is. I'm not against welfare in general because I recognize that shit happens to good people and our economic system isn't perfect. I am against people gaming the system if that is what is happening.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4909 times:

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 19):
Posing the question this way seems to hold the rest of us hostage to the consequences of a few people's poor decisions, doesn't

No, it is a serious question. The fact that you feel like a "Hostage" is because you have thought very little of the solutions. I have grown sick and tired of folks bashing policy without offering alternatives. There is a reason their are policies, because the alternatives are not as palatable.
As the rest of your argument shows, we can't fix stupid, and some solutions we have to deal with.

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 19):
and giving it to someone else under these particular circumstances.

And who would take them? And at what cost?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 1):

Interesting. With the exception of a few states it looks a lot like the 2012 electoral map.

Yeah, but on average, blue states are net payers into the Fed govt and red states are, on average, provided welfare provided by blue states. If you look at the govt purely as a transferer of wealth.

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 19):
but providing a financial incentive for the kind of behavior that we don't want to see (planned or unplanned pregnancy without a way to support the child) is not much of a solution either.

Of course not. The average human being is incredibly smart. If you pay people to fail, then failure becomes their job. It's how they make their living. And apparently welfare people in Hawaii for example live a non-poor middle class lifestyle.

When you properly account for subsidized rent & prison costs, I believe many "poor" people consume far more than I do. And that means I work and study hard purely for fun... and because it's the social norm for my peer group.

[Edited 2013-08-22 08:13:17]

User currently offlineSmittyone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4857 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
No, it is a serious question. The fact that you feel like a "Hostage" is because you have thought very little of the solutions. I have grown sick and tired of folks bashing policy without offering alternatives. There is a reason their are policies, because the alternatives are not as palatable.
As the rest of your argument shows, we can't fix stupid, and some solutions we have to deal with.

No, I feel like a hostage because there seems to be a presumption that children born for the purpose of collecting welfare is my/our problem to solve, as opposed to the parents' problem. Again, the specific point I was responding to was "people who game the system by being rewarded for having children (either carelessly or intentionally) that they can't support."

I think I have a right to bash the current solution without providing an alternative because I'm not getting paid to do so, unlike a whole lot of people who are. But even so I have considered it so here is my thought:

- If you have one or more children when you apply for welfare, they 'count'. Because bad things happen and new parents can find themselves between a rock and a hard place. I get that.
- Additional children born while on welfare do not result in additional benefits. If you're getting a check from me I get input on your reproductive choices.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
And who would take them? And at what cost?

Like I said, I don't know what the actual scope of this problem is (ie how many kids really are being born for 'bennies' - the whole issue could likely be a strawman) so it's hard to say how many kids we are talking about. But if this issue is real then I reject the idea that even the most progressive/enlightened society has an obligation to continually cater to people who are deliberately or negligently creating problems. At some point people have to feel some discomfort in order to change. If that means we need to set up an orphanage to meet the short term needs of the innocent kids at greater cost I'd prefer that to perpetuating the parents' behavior via individual payouts.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4845 times:

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 22):
At some point people have to feel some discomfort in order to change.

That change may not be to your benefit. That change could be bad. It could be crime.

Withholding "welfare" will not stop people that do not know any better from being better.
Sure their are some folks that are on welfare through bad luck, but many are there due to abuse, lack of education, and cognitive impairments. Not everything can be changed by withholding welfare. Especially since your decision harms the most innocent person in the whole mess. The kids.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4842 times:

I should probably add this disclaimer to all of my posts: I am of the opinion that there are right-wingers who are out there to simply stir the pot and make as much money and noise for the very very wealthy and/or Christianity and there are Republicans who are educated and make decisions based on what they read from multiple sources.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
The Republicans give out free stuff to the wealthy, and the corporations. The Democrats are wiser, they give out frees stuff to the voters. Who is smarter?

Considering the wealthy right-wing are rigging the voting...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
I pay the taxes of 1.6 people, partly so others can make money by not working, and you think it's the people getting free money who are being exploited?

I am going to suggest this again to you:

Live like the majority of people in this country. Work two or three low wage jobs because that's all you can get with your college degree in computer science or accounting or whatever.

Also, you sound like welfare lasts forever. It does not.

And, one last point: the right-wing lumps food stamps and Medicade in with welfare. They are three different things.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4908 times:

Sadly I'm just another statistic whose Employment Insurance ran out after 9 months. Tried to avoid applying for welfare but bills; increasing rent and power costs forcing me to do just that.

I've applied to many positions and other than a few interviews my struggle continues.

Here in Nova Scotia, $10.5/hr minimum wage is over double what I get in welfare allowance. I don't know how Americans on minimum can get by on just $7.25....



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4878 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Considering the wealthy right-wing are rigging the voting...

How dare you bring Grover Norquist into this discussion ! For shame !



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineSmittyone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4906 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 23):
Especially since your decision harms the most innocent person in the whole mess. The kids.

Well maybe but maybe not. I'm talking about a pretty specific case, not randomly ripping the sippy cup out of kids' mouths because we're cheap bastards. The idea is that when you remove the incentive you'd have fewer people bringing kids into the bad situation to begin with. If a person's motivation for having a child really is to increase eligibility for welfare to begin with, or they're already in a bad situation and won't take some pretty simple precautions to improve their family's prospects because they know the government is standing by to assist, what kind of parenting are they doing anyway?

It's a bad deal for kids either way, I'll grant that!

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 25):
Sadly I'm just another statistic whose Employment Insurance ran out after 9 months. Tried to avoid applying for welfare but bills; increasing rent and power costs forcing me to do just that.

I've applied to many positions and other than a few interviews my struggle continues.

Here in Nova Scotia, $10.5/hr minimum wage is over double what I get in welfare allowance. I don't know how Americans on minimum can get by on just $7.25....

Sorry to hear it. This is what welfare is for and I sure as hell wouldn't begrudge you for it.


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

If this is true, it tells me that we pay too much in welfare.

Look, we have gotten ourselves into a deep mess. People are incentivized to not work. When we extended unemployment (I know, it's not welfare, but it's instructive) we allowed folks to sit on the sidelines longer...finding themselves. I know 3 people who 'suddenly' found work when their 'benefits' ran out. One of them is my brother.

We need to make it hard for people to get welfare. We need to stigmatize welfare. We need to go back to actual food stamps, not those EBT cards, where, I believe you can get cash from an ATM.

We received food stamps when we were growing up. My mom and dad were mortified to use them at our local supermarket, where they might be seen. My mom would avoid a certain cashier at C-Town because she was friendly with her.

My parents worked as hard as they could to get us off welfare. And, they succeeded.

Welfare has a place, but it should be a hard place.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 25):
I don't know how Americans on minimum can get by on just $7.25....

People working minimum wage aren't supposed to be "getting by". Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be transistional. Minimum wage employers are supposed to be training grounds where young folks learn how to be employees. You're not supposed to try and live in minimum wage.

When I was working minimum wage jobs (high school and some college), the minimum wage was $3.35. There was no expectation that I live on that. It was pocket money. It was cash to go on dates or to a movie or pay for gas.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4895 times:

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 27):
If a person's motivation for having a child really is to increase eligibility for welfare to begin with, or they're already in a bad situation and won't take some pretty simple precautions to improve their family's prospects because they know the government is standing by to assist, what kind of parenting are they doing anyway?

Not much to be honest, but at the same time why do the cops always try so hard to prevent someone trying to comit suicide? You have to try , even if they turn their back, because it is not just them at risk. If they mess up bad enough, then they go to jail, and the kids wind up in the foster system.... Oh joy.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4889 times:

Can we please define "welfare" before this thread goes any further?

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
We need to make it hard for people to get welfare. We need to stigmatize welfare.

It is and it is.

BTW, people actually do work and receive food stamps and Medicade. Why? They don't make enough to feed their family and can not afford health care even with a job or two or three.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
We need to go back to actual food stamps, not those EBT cards, where, I believe you can get cash from an ATM.

There are two separate accounts. One is strictly for food and can only be used for food at the point of purchase. There are some people who can make cash withdraws from a separate account for things like diapers and such. And, yes, that is abused by some.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4889 times:

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 27):
Sadly I'm just another statistic whose Employment Insurance ran out after 9 months. Tried to avoid applying for welfare but bills; increasing rent and power costs forcing me to do just that.

BMac-

Sorry to read of your travails. But keep in the forefront of your mind, you are NOT a statistic. Is there a possibility through Service Canada of a re-training program ? Or, if it's possible, doing an internship ? If that could work, it's a foot in the door.

Welcome to Harper's World.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
We need to stigmatize welfare.

With due respect to BMac's situation, when I was growing up, I was told welfare was a stigma. As for UI (EI up here) only funded it, never claimed. But if someone needs it, I say "go for it".



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineSmittyone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4862 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 29):
Not much to be honest, but at the same time why do the cops always try so hard to prevent someone trying to comit suicide? You have to try , even if they turn their back, because it is not just them at risk. If they mess up bad enough, then they go to jail, and the kids wind up in the foster system.... Oh joy.

Well I suppose you are right, there. Definitely need to find a way to cut out the nonsense with the 'welfare kids' if that is what is happening though.


User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4857 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 31):
Is there a possibility through Service Canada of a re-training program ? Or, if it's possible, doing an internship ? If that could work, it's a foot in the door.

Thanks for responding,

I have an interview next week for a training program (environmental engineering) sponsored by the NovaScotia (provincial) government. There is only 15 seats but I'm hoping with my experience and previous Diplomas I will be one one the successful applicants...

[Edited 2013-08-22 10:43:53]


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4848 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
It is and it is.

Really? Where? The Obama Administration is actively promoting welfare. The Obama Administration has gutted the Clinton welfare reform. Speaking of which: I remember that soon a couple of years after it passed, Mrs. Clinton, lamented the fact that there were less folks on welfare than there were prior to its passage. I saw the reduction as a success, she saw it as a failure.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
There are two separate accounts. One is strictly for food and can only be used for food at the point of purchase. There are some people who can make cash withdraws from a separate account for things like diapers and such. And, yes, that is abused by some.

At no time should anyone be allowed to 'cash-in' their EBT cards for cash. Never. In fact, I would support that people receiving welfare only be allowed to shop in certain stores (I realize that there is some of that, but I suggest it be even more restrictive) and be allowed only to buy 'store-brand' products, if available. I want those folks to buy Kroger Toasted Oats instead of General Mills Cheerios. I want welfare to be psychologically painful in order to force folks to try to better themselves.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
BTW, people actually do work and receive food stamps and Medicade. Why? They don't make enough to feed their family and can not afford health care even with a job or two or three.

Yes, that was my parents. They worked and still received welfare. But, they improved on their positions. They changed jobs when necessary...but only after securing a new job. They skimped and saved. They (we) did without.

Like, I said...welfare, WIC, SNAP, etc. all have a place in our society, but it should be a hard place...a place of last resort and a place where people are fighting hard to get out of.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4847 times:

If I'm not mistaken, men do not qualify for welfare. Is that correct?
In order for a women to receive welfare, she has to get knocked up.
If so, did all these women on welfare just find themselves pregnant?

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 34):
The Obama Administration has gutted the Clinton welfare reform. Speaking of which: I remember that soon a couple of years after it passed, Mrs. Clinton, lamented the fact that there were less folks on welfare than there were prior to its passage. I saw the reduction as a success, she saw it as a failure.

Or course it's a bad thing for her. She wants power and control. The way things are going, we'll all be sucking off of Hillary's government teat.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 34):
be allowed only to buy 'store-brand' products, if available. I want those folks to buy Kroger Toasted Oats instead of General Mills Cheerios. I want welfare to be psychologically painful in order to force folks to try to better themselves.

Well that is a bit extreme. Perhaps they need to learn to manage on their own. Many do buy the generic brands but if they chose to buy gourmet Dijon mustard of arugula at Whole Foods, then that is their problem by the end of the month.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 34):
At no time should anyone be allowed to 'cash-in' their EBT cards for cash.

  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4832 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
Well that is a bit extreme. Perhaps they need to learn to manage on their own. Many do buy the generic brands but if they chose to buy gourmet Dijon mustard of arugula at Whole Foods, then that is their problem by the end of the month.

I agree with Superfly on this. Can't take away personal responsibility here, otherwise they won't learn.

the real issue are the ones that are on Welfare with Side jobs. Then they are double dipping.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 33):
I have an interview next week for a training program (environmental engineering) sponsored by the NovaScotia (provincial) government. There is only 15 seats but I'm hoping with my experience and previous Diplomas I will be one one the successful applicants...

That's good to hear !   

Keep me posted (by IM if you prefer).



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4812 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
Many do buy the generic brands but if they chose to buy gourmet Dijon mustard of arugula at Whole Foods, then that is their problem by the end of the month.

No, it is our problem because then these same folks and their sponsors in congress will say that the money they currently get is not enough.

Listen, I'm all for personal responsibility, but if you want to buy the name brands you like, you can do it without my money. When you take from the me, I should be able to tell you how to spend that money you take.

You want to buy Grey Poupon, then work harder and try to improve your condition in life, otherwise settle for Kroger Dijon Mustard.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4803 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 38):
You want to buy Grey Poupon, then work harder and try to improve your condition in life, otherwise settle for Kroger Dijon Mustard.

Sure, but what if it was a good week? A splurge here or there is not a bad thing if you are saving overall and living within the constraint of the Food stamp. Heck it might even be the last week on the stamps and they are celebrating a new job.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
I thought you were against greed?

Hard to call that level of poverty as greed.

There are a lot of people in this country at the bottom of the economic scale that would love a job that pays above the poverty line, but it is the greed at the corporate level that will keep that from happening.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
You dislike the fact that I think I should be able to keep more of the money that I actually earn rather than see it go to taxes, but you don't blame people for keeping themselves on welfare to make a few bucks more?

People don't really care if you are making nice, plump income. But don't consider a "few bucks more" the same for people in poverty as it is for you. Enjoy your fat paycheck and discover that paying a good tax accountant can reduce that 1.6 ration you are so obsessed about.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Time to cut off the junkie.

Time to move the minimum wage to a level above the poverty line and move people off welfare. All we have now is corporate welfare with a below poverty level minimum wage and individual welfare that is the result of corporate welfare.

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
Or, better, to raise the minimum wage.

That is too logical and solves too many problems. Sort of like getting rid of employer provided nanny care.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
My (theoretical) millionth dollar is infinitely more important to me than some trailer dweller's first.

This doesn't look like trailer living

Iron Lung


Those days are fortunately gone, but they show the reality that medical conditions can keep people from working. Your assumptions that people receiving benefits are trailer trash are pretty far from reality.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
They just keep on having babies and those of us who pay taxes keep on paying the tab. What fun!

As long as we have a minimum wage below the poverty line there will be long lines of people looking for benefits - even people who are working.

Move the minimum wage to ABOVE the poverty line and things change. Move the burden of nanny care off the employers back and things will change. Stay where we are and that line at the welfare office will only continue to grow.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
This is the fellow who identifies Social Security, the Veterans Administration, military retirement and civilian federal pensions as 'entitlement' programs and includes them in his figures.

That is prety impressive. I guess all the Vets you see at the VA Clinics are Trailer Trash. Same for those old folks who paid into the system for decades while the earned an honest living - just more trailer trash, eh?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 21):
If you look at the govt purely as a transferer of wealth.

Until you look at the government funds that flow into those red states. Look at Texas - how heavy an investment do we have the for military bases and what is the annual budget for operations and personnel? How much money has gone into roads and other infrastructure development, how about the billions that flow into medical research (MD Anderson's share of the federal dollar would probably stun all of us) and how much money flows into the state for medicare, Medicaid and medical education.

Texas gets a hell of a lot of federal dollars so that transfer of wealth is a bit of a distortion.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6617 posts, RR: 24
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
People working minimum wage aren't supposed to be "getting by". Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be transistional.

But there aren't enough higher paying jobs to transition to. Not everyone can be a doctor/lawyer/engineer...or even a plumber/mechanic. Yes, some people can make the transition, but many will be stuck in low-wage jobs no matter how hard they work.

If 50% of all jobs are low-wage, then a lot of people will be stuck in them for most of their lives.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 34):
Never. In fact, I would support that people receiving welfare only be allowed to shop in certain stores (I realize that there is some of that, but I suggest it be even more restrictive) and be allowed only to buy 'store-brand' products, if available. I want those folks to buy Kroger Toasted Oats instead of General Mills Cheerios.

But trying to code in all the "brands" that are allowed and not allowed would be highly cost prohibitive. You really want to spend millions more to have government bureaucrats tell you what brands are acceptable? And what about when the name brand is on sale and is cheaper than the store brand? I've seen that happen many times...under your system you'd then be forcing people to pay more and not take advantage of the sale.


User currently offlineSIA747Megatop From Singapore, joined Apr 2012, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4770 times:

I think minimum wages should be lowered if not abolished all together. Low wages mean lower costs which keeps industry and manufacturing local.

Pensions should be abolished, especially in ageing societies where it is simply not feasible for people to get paid post retirement as there are more people not working than working. Unfortunately, the concept of saving for retirement from youth is not part of the culture.

Thirdly, people should only be rewarded for the contributions to society. No unemployment benefits. If penalties are severe enough, people will also refrain from going into illicit activities. Death penalties should be mandatory for drug and firearm related offences.

In reference to the comments regarding Republicans giving handouts to the wealthy, why not impose an investment based income tax scheme? Have the wealthy get a tax break based on their investment into either their local or national economy. This tax break should only be offered AFTER they've spent their money, not handed to them before - there is no incentive for them to spend otherwise.

***I frequently visit the United States, I'm currently at the tail end of a 6 week trip to Chicago. I am often met with stunned looks that someone of my age (18) possesses such conservative views. It is a shame that no government will do any of the above as it would be political suicide and never get passed. Despite what I have posted above, I would never vote right wing.

There are advantages to having a single ruling party along with smaller opposition parties to keep checks and balances in place.

[Edited 2013-08-22 13:39:09]


That's Mr. Bovine Joni to you.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting SIA747Megatop (Reply 42):

So basically become Singapore. I don't know whether Americans would like that, but as someone residing here I'd say no thank you, if I wanted any of that I would have moved to Singapore.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7186 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

Assuming this is true or even taking 20% off the numbers of the higher ranked states these numbers are insane.
Assistant State Attorneys in Florida don't even make over $40k.

Now Florida seems to have it under control but let me give you two personal stories for those who believe these people really deserve it. Now I will also add that I think minimum wage should go up. Not suddenly but there does need to be a change in minimum wage. At the same time I think all Government pensions from any level from city, state and federal need to be abolished. There is zero reason with some of the salaries government workers make, especially at the city, county or federal level why they need pensions. They can save up like so many others have to.

I know of two people who have quit their jobs because after doing some calculations and one of them was approached by a social worker they were told the government would pay them more money not to work. There is a problem with that.

We want to help poor people. Lets not give them money but give them things. We give them Section 8 housing already. That is fine, and actually it is good for the economy because so many of these places are owned by private investors. We should not be writing checks to the poor. They need food? They can go to a select few grocery stores and use their food stamps on food only. They need the electricity paid? Sure bring in your bill and the government will pay the utility company directly. Need clothes? Sure tell us what you need and the government will give you a voucher to go to a select store and purchase what you need.

So how is giving things better? Well first we would limit the value of the things. Second it would ensure that the money is actually being used for vital needs. And maybe the limitations on what you can buy and where you can buy it would create and incentive to go get a job and work. Right now many prefer to just not work.

Often Cuban immigrants who come to the U.S. now will stay with relatives for a year before they can get their green-card. Once they get their green-card they can get welfare. What do you think happens to the family of the immigrant? They no longer help their family member, the immigrant has some kids and bingo government is paying them money. It happens. We need welfare, we just need to change how the system works and how much we give.

Quoting SIA747Megatop (Reply 42):

Well you are certainly from Singapore. Thanks but no Thanks.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 45, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4683 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Live like the majority of people in this country. Work two or three low wage jobs

I don't have to and I'll explain why.

I didn't screw around too much. I didn't decide I needed to go smoke instead of go to class. I didn't get smashed and miss class with a hangover. I didn't become an alcoholic or a drug addict. When I went to school, I took it reasonably seriously and did my work.

None of that is really that exceptional. Plenty of other people did the same. None of that required my parents or anyone else in my family to be a millionaire.

You, and a lot of the rest of the country it seems, are just making excuses.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
And, one last point: the right-wing lumps food stamps and Medicade in with welfare. They are three different things.

All of them cost me money, so I really don't care that much.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
We need to stigmatize welfare.

Very much so. It should carry a major embarrassment factor with it, rather than "Hey look! Free stuff from the government!"

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
They don't make enough to feed their family and can not afford health care even with a job or two or three.

Not my problem.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
Hard to call that level of poverty as greed.

People are intentionally not getting jobs because they'll make more money living off the government.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
People don't really care if you are making nice, plump income.

And I don't really care if uneducated folks get no welfare at all.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
But don't consider a "few bucks more" the same for people in poverty as it is for you.

It's actually way more important to me, because it's mine.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
Time to move the minimum wage to a level above the poverty line and move people off welfare.

Having to pay $15 for a crummy hamburger doesn't help me that much.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
Not everyone can be a doctor/lawyer/engineer...or even a plumber/mechanic.

But I can. Problem solved.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
Yes, some people can make the transition, but many will be stuck in low-wage jobs no matter how hard they work.

That's a serious problem, so let's keep it their problem and not make it mine as well.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4641 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
Can we please define "welfare" before this thread goes any further?

A noble idea, sometimes abused, but absolutely, positively needed when disaster strikes. As I said before, to me welfare is a product of Capitalism. Capitalism, a vicious system, which bestows great wealth on many, moderate wealth for many, and unfortunately great poverty for many. A system of top down exploitation in which there are varying degrees. My take on it anyway.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4593 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
If I'm not mistaken, men do not qualify for welfare.

I believe that normally both men and women qualify, but don't assume that a healthy guy will get it as easily as a very pregnant woman.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
Perhaps they need to learn to manage on their own.

If you want to get to that level then you need to start classes on personal finance in the 7th grade and continue each year.

There re a lot of university students that don't have a basic understanding of personal finance. Amazing that high schools & universities require 2 years of a foreign language, but nothing on personal finance that can make a significant improvement in the students' lives.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 25):
Sadly I'm just another statistic whose Employment Insurance ran out after 9 months. Tried to avoid applying for welfare but bills; increasing rent and power costs forcing me to do just that.

The fact that you had Employment insurance demonstrates that you had a job. Lots of people in your situation with the GOP Great Recession still impacting unemployment and this situation will take a generation to be resolved, if it can be fully resolved at all.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 25):
Here in Nova Scotia, $10.5/hr minimum wage is over double what I get in welfare allowance.

You're better than the US with the $10.50 level, but it's even better than that. You include health care where we expect our people on minimum wage to pay for their own medical insurance. Aw

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 25):
I don't know how Americans on minimum can get by on just $7.25....

They don't. Lots of other ways to make ends meet. Sell drugs, rob a liquor store, etc.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
If this is true, it tells me that we pay too much in welfare.

Welfare still keeps Americans below the poverty level. That is far from "too much". It not only drags those families down it also drags this country down.

But as long as you support corporate welfare we will continue to have below poverty line minimum wages.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
People working minimum wage aren't supposed to be "getting by".

And they sure aren't "getting by". But then that minimum wage is in place to support corporations and their profits.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be transistional.

Tell that to adults working for minimum wage with any little hope for their future.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
Minimum wage employers are supposed to be training grounds where young folks learn how to be employees.

When you talk about that you have to start with the training program. The best example I have seen was the apprenticeship program at Qantas for their engineers. Starts around age 16 and lasts 3 to 4 years. At the end of their apprenticeship (assuming they pass their tests) they move into jobs that pay adult wages at a level where the engineers can make a living and support a family. An "apprenticeship" in flipping burgers doesn't count.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
You're not supposed to try and live in minimum wage.

And you don't - so why not raise it to a level where decent people can get by?

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
It was pocket money. It was cash to go on dates or to a movie or pay for gas.

You are exceptionally fortunate - just look at those families trying to make it on what you considered "play money".


Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
BTW, people actually do work and receive food stamps and Medicade.

That is because Corporate America (and the politicians in their pocket) are not going to allow a living wage above the poverty line. That low wage that results in food stamps and Medicaid is corporate welfare. Cold hard fact that conservatives will continue to support.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
They don't make enough to feed their family and can not afford health care even with a job or two or three.

Which is why we need to get with modern civilization and shift the cost of core hare to a tax based system. Other countries managed to do that pretty well - achieving better outcomes than the US - but our right wing politicians aren't going to upset their political cash flow so we have problems with minimum improvements with programs like ObamaCare.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 33):
There is only 15 seats but I'm hoping with my experience and previous Diplomas I will be one one the successful applicants..

Best of luck getting a seat. Your situation is one that some overly confident needs to give a lot of thought to. You worked hard to get the Diplomas, you have experience and now you're out of a job - and looking for more training. Lots of people believe it will never happen to them - and are shocked when factors beyond their control (like the GOP Great Recession) leaves them out in the cold.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4583 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
I believe that normally both men and women qualify, but don't assume that a healthy guy will get it as easily as a very pregnant woman.

What about a healthy pregnant woman?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 49, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4562 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 44):
Assuming this is true or even taking 20% off the numbers of the higher ranked states these numbers are insane.
Assistant State Attorneys in Florida don't even make over $40k.

His numbers include every Social Security recipient as 'welfare' from an 'entitlement program' and the 'value' of Medicare they receive as a second entitlement program. So a retiree receiving $1,500 per month from SS with Medicare valued at $1,500 per month - inputs as a welfare value of $36,000 per year.

It is all playing with statistics.

Some clueless person above quoted the untrue 47% figure.

The truth is that for one year back in the mid-2000s - 47% of the people filing federal income tax returns paid no income tax.

Of that 47% - about 1/3 of them were Social Security recipients who had either no additional income or no-tax investment income - and thus owed no federal taxes.

Most of the other 2/3 of the people who paid no income tax were working poor who receive minimum wage. Their total income was too low to owe taxes if they take the standard deduction.

Now - if those people had made a million dollars each and paid no income tax - no one would be complaining about welfare.

[Edited 2013-08-22 21:14:56]

[Edited 2013-08-22 21:15:49]

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 50, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4551 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 46):
A noble idea, sometimes abused, but absolutely, positively needed when disaster strikes

I like your definition, but it says nothing about what goes into it. The right loves to hate "welfare" and puts so many things under that umbrella. I would like to know what the OP considers "welfare".

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
All of them cost me money, so I really don't care that much.

I hope you have to live on the streets for a whole year. I say that so you can understand what real people have to go through.

Better yet, go into the military for four years or more. You can work your tail off in the military and, even then, you might not get what you want. No matter how hard you work.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 51, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4543 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
If you want to get to that level then you need to start classes on personal finance in the 7th grade and continue each year.

You mean taught by a school system that's always in debt? You have some teachers that don't have a basic understanding of personal finance.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 38):
Listen, I'm all for personal responsibility, but if you want to buy the name brands you like,

Hold on a minute. Some products are only name brand. I haven't heard of food stamp recipients buying expensive food ever being a problem. The problem is those few that sale their food stamps for ca$h money.
Minute Maid orange juice is a name brand. I'm sure most who use food stamps buy a lot of items that are on sale at a discount to make their food stamps stretch. Sure a few items in their basket may be of a name brand and that doesn't bother me. Many are able to make them stretch an entire month and have a few name brand items. If someone receiving food stamps can make their benefit last an entire month while buying a single bottle of extra virgin olive oil (which usually last more than a month) and/or one goose liver pâté (usually $4) then I say more power to them!
If they're managing properly and are able to buy a few nice food items in the process then I see no reason to complain.
It's not like you see these people shopping at Whole Foods. Most food stamp recipients already shop at discounted, bulk item groceries stores such as Foods 4 Less or FoodsCo and similar places.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 52, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4521 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
You mean taught by a school system that's always in debt?

According to some, defunding is the best way to make an education system.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 53, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4524 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 52):
According to some, defunding is the best way to make an education system.

Who? Names and quotes please.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26534 posts, RR: 75
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4495 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
That pretty well demonstrates a need to change minimum wage and employer costs. It is pure folly that employers are stuck with the financial burden of nanny care and that they need to use that relief to pay above the poverty line. Otherwise you are going to exceed this grow even higher.

Exactly. The reason welfare is more than the minimum wage is because the minimum wage is not a living wage.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14030 posts, RR: 62
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4489 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
But there aren't enough higher paying jobs to transition to. Not everyone can be a doctor/lawyer/engineer...or even a plumber/mechanic. Yes, some people can make the transition, but many will be stuck in low-wage jobs no matter how hard they work.

Not just this, but, as our HR chief said once to a gifted unlicenced mechanic, when he denied this guys application for a programme which would get him his licence, "We need labourers too". He wanted to have people being able to do all jobs on the aircraft, with the exception of signing for the work. These people would be paid unskilled labourer´s wages because they cannot present a qualification paper or a licence. His ideal was 20+ cheap unlicenced mechanics doing the work and one (expensive) guy with a licence (FAA A&P or EASA B1) just sitting in the office signing the technical logbooks and task cards.

I never took wellfare all my life, I have only been contributing to the funds. Still I regard it as an essential safety net.
There are people who abuse the system, e.g. drawing welfare and having an illegal (no taxes paid) job on the side. In this case the government should come down hard on both the illegal worker and his employer (who is saving his shares in social security contributions and manages to undercut his legally operating competition).

One problem I see is with do gooders or lazy perswons in positions at the welfare office. E.g. long ago my then wife (freshly married) received wellfare for her two children from bprevious husbands (who couldn´t or didn´t pay child support). Since we were married and she wasn´t working, I also had to give my income details to the welfare office, though I never claimed welfare for myself. Now, after finishing my apprenticeship, I was looking for a job, but couldn´t find any in Germany, only in Ireland. I informed the welfare office about my plans for moving abroad to start working and that then I would have to pay a certain percentage of my income to them to compensate for the welfare payments to my then-wife. the welfare office woman seriously told me that I should better apply for welfare and stay unemployed in Germany, because going through the various EU laws and rules concerning incomes earned abroad (and especially the living expenses I would need for myself in Ireland) was too much work for her.
Ok, I also have to say that my ex was a welfare queen, who knew how to work the system and who expected to gto through life with having somebody else pay for her, let it be the government or a husband. This is one of the reasons why we divorced a few years later. For me welfare is always a temporary safety net in case everything else fails, not something to live on permanently.

Jan


User currently onlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4466 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 50):

"Better yet, go into the military for four years or more. You can work your tail off in the military and, even then, you might not get what you want. No matter how hard you work".

Not sure what you're getting at, however I know many people who did well in the military including myself. My family never had money and couldn't afford college. I'm a living testimony of how some one can do a career in the military and finish college at the same time. People who weren't successful in the military or out of it didn't try to better they're life one way or another.


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4452 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
If 50% of all jobs are low-wage, then a lot of people will be stuck in them for most of their lives.

And, to quote Judge Smalls "...the world needs ditch diggers, too."

I'm not trying to be flippant, but there you have it. Not everyone can be in a high paying job. Not everyone one can have a everything or even a fraction of what they want. Some will succeed and some will fail.

I hate to say this, but some people will fail even though they make most of the right decisions. Even though they choose the right path. Even if they are hard working and conscientious. These are the people that the social safety nets should be in place to help.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
But trying to code in all the "brands" that are allowed and not allowed would be highly cost prohibitive.

You've heard of computers, right? Listen, if Kroger can match digital coupons off my phone to my rewards card and give me the discount at the POS, then I don't see a problem with the system bouncing Grey Poupon when you try to buy it using an EBT card.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 39):
A splurge here or there is not a bad thing if you are saving overall and living within the constraint of the Food stamp.

You can use cash for those events or times where you feel you can fall off the wagon.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
When you talk about that you have to start with the training program. The best example I have seen was the apprenticeship program at Qantas for their engineers.

While I fully support apprenticeship programs and the like, you misunderstand what I mean by training. Minimum wage employers tend to be training grounds to teach young folks how to be employees. How to get to work on time. How to be responsible. How work is supposed to reward you. How to treat another's property as your own. How to work well with others. How to move to a common goal (usually set by someone else).

You know...all the stuff that parents and schools should teach...all those things are reinforced during the first years of anyone's employment.

If you can find that in a structured apprenticeship program...bully for you. They are not nearly as common in the US as they should be. The reasons for that sad state of affairs is for another thread, but I do laud the trade unions for being a big part of those programs.

But, flipping burgers at McDonald's or working in the school library or admissions office or dishing ice cream at Carvel's or working in a furniture repair place or selling gizmos at Radio Shack will suffice for learning those life skills. By the way...those are all jobs I did, from age 16 and on, for minimum wage (or less), learning those important skills.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
And you don't - so why not raise it to a level where decent people can get by?

Why is that the responsibility of the employer?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
You are exceptionally fortunate - just look at those families trying to make it on what you considered "play money".

Then, they need to improve their condition. Those families need to reevaluate what they are doing. Why is an adult working at a minimum wage job? What put that person in that position? Sometimes it's something out of their control, but I'd suggest that it was lifestyle decisions that brought many to that point.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
Some products are only name brand.

Then you buy the product or that particular product is disallowed. Can anyone tell me: is alcohol allowed under SNAP?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
Most food stamp recipients already shop at discounted, bulk item groceries stores such as Foods 4 Less or FoodsCo and similar places.

It should be all food stamp recipients. We had a discussion about this a few years ago:

http://www.salon.com/2010/03/16/hipsters_food_stamps_pinched/

An old article, but, I suspect it still occurs, in large numbers, in some communities.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 50):
I hope you have to live on the streets for a whole year. I say that so you can understand what real people have to go through.

Because in order to be a "real" person you have to live on the streets?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 50):
Better yet, go into the military for four years or more. You can work your tail off in the military and, even then, you might not get what you want. No matter how hard you work.

Yup, sometimes you don't get what you want. Sometimes you don't even get what you need...that's what welfare should support...the need, not the want.

[Edited 2013-08-23 05:38:23]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4431 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
You can use cash for those events or times where you feel you can fall off the wagon.

Bbut a can of brown mustard compared to the price per poind for chicken/pork is miniscule , unless you are some kind of mustard fiend, in which case I present the 12 pack

http://www.walmart.com/ip/24491486?w...4=&wl5=pla&wl6=50618477796&veh=sem

Also a lot of stores price meet and other vege's based on quality. Do we force the poor to buy the ultra fat burgers vs the lean burgers that are $2 more per pound? It's not just about the individual, but the children, and for quite a few people welfare is temporary, and not permanent.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4414 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 58):
Also a lot of stores price meet and other vege's based on quality. Do we force the poor to buy the ultra fat burgers vs the lean burgers that are $2 more per pound? It's not just about the individual, but the children, and for quite a few people welfare is temporary, and not permanent.

I'm just about positive that Kroger has a store brand lean beef. I'll check later.

The point is, that we need to encourage (force) SNAP, WIC , whatever recipients to be more frugal with the money we give them. They should be good stewards of our money. Maybe they can be a role model for our politicians.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 60, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
I hate to say this, but some people will fail even though they make most of the right decisions. Even though they choose the right path. Even if they are hard working and conscientious. These are the people that the social safety nets should be in place to help

Better not let people like BMI hear that kind of talk. Those people you describe are lazy and ignorant and left wing voters to people like BMI. We would not want to shatter their illusion they have built.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 58):
Do we force the poor to buy the ultra fat burgers vs the lean burgers that are $2 more per pound?

Fresh fruits and lean meats are expensive. Crap food is cheap. I think that is stupid. All this talk about how eating healthy makes people less likely to contract cancers and various other ailments, yet we make it difficult for people to eat healthy. I don't get that.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 61, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
Then you buy the product or that particular product is disallowed.

So the generic store brand of a pound of sugar is sold out and the only sugar left is C&H sugar which is a name brand. You're saying that these people can't buy the C&H sugar which cost a whopping .10 cents more than the generic brand?
I can understand your frustrations with some welfare recipients that abuse the system but this is just sounding ridiculous.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
Can anyone tell me: is alcohol allowed under SNAP?

No it is not allowed. Nor is deli items cooked in the store.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5718 posts, RR: 18
Reply 62, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4353 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
All this talk about how eating healthy makes people less likely to contract cancers and various other ailments, yet we make it difficult for people to eat healthy.

It's always someone else's fault is it?


User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4352 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 61):
I can understand your frustrations with some welfare recipients that abuse the system but this is just sounding ridiculous.

I concur. That is absurd. On a policy note, I think that is overly intrusive into poor families' domestic lives. What they eat is their own business. If I remember correctly, the poster suggesting this is one of the people that were up in arms about Bloomberg banning Big Gulps...how is this any less intrusive?

On a practical note, it is just not realistic. So if the grocery store has a sale where them name brand product is cheaper or has a coupon in the paper, they can't buy it? How is that teaching people to be good stewards of their resources?


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 64, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4325 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 61):
So the generic store brand of a pound of sugar is sold out and the only sugar left is C&H sugar which is a name brand. You're saying that these people can't buy the C&H sugar which cost a whopping .10 cents more than the generic brand?
I can understand your frustrations with some welfare recipients that abuse the system but this is just sounding ridiculous.

They could always come back and get the generic, it's what I do when the store is out of the brand I like. But, 10 cents isn't that much of a big deal. But, what about the buck-thirty or so on the difference between Cheerios and Toasted Oats? What about 60 or 70 cent difference in Grey Poupon vs. Dijon Mustard? How about Sergento Cheddar Cheese vs. Kroger Cheddar? That's like a $2 difference.

I want the people using my money to be required to use it wisely.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 63):
I think that is overly intrusive into poor families' domestic lives.

Then, they shouldn't be asking for my money. Government money should come with strings attached. Big, long strings with knots in them.

It should be hard. People should want to actively try and get away from the system because of the restrictions.
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 63):
If I remember correctly, the poster suggesting this is one of the people that were up in arms about Bloomberg banning Big Gulps...how is this any less intrusive?

I actually don't remember if I posted there...probably did. The difference: if I were using government money to buy Big Gulps, Bloomberg could ban it all he wanted. My money, my choice. Why is that hard?

[Edited 2013-08-23 12:32:25]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Welfare should be an opportunity to get job experience splitting rocks, excavating roads and emptying bedpans of the elderly and profoundly handicapped.

Let people work for their money - and pay taxes out of that money. This free money thing is ludicrous. It also causes urban decay, contemptuous sloths and violence in the young boys. Let them scrub bedpans clean, and then work their way up, if they have ambitions of having their own home, cars etc.

Government programs should be there -- but they should not be giveaways.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 65):
Welfare should be an opportunity to get job experience splitting rocks, excavating roads and emptying bedpans of the elderly and profoundly handicapped.

Let people work for their money - and pay taxes out of that money. This free money thing is ludicrous. It also causes urban decay, contemptuous sloths and violence in the young boys. Let them scrub bedpans clean, and then work their way up, if they have ambitions of having their own home, cars etc.

Government programs should be there -- but they should not be giveaways.

A lot of people on welfare already have jobs, or they are incapable of work. Most have families, and then what would you do with the kids?

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinedarthluke12694 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 67, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4289 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 64):
They could always come back and get the generic, it's what I do when the store is out of the brand I like.

Let's see if I have this straight. You're going to force people to come back and get the generic brand. So you would rather have people pay for the gas, bus, etc to make a special trip to the store, or a different store? So you want people to pay $3.00 or more for gas, just to save a few cents? Wow.... I agree with what you are saying, but I think it is a little too far.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 68, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 63):
If I remember correctly, the poster suggesting this is one of the people that were up in arms about Bloomberg banning Big Gulps...how is this any less intrusive?

He also thinks it's his right to poke his nose in people's personal finances if they are considered for a job offer. We're not talking about top level staff either. He suggested that even for the guy in the mail room and receptionist.
Completely over the top.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 65):
Welfare should be an opportunity to get job experience splitting rocks, excavating roads and emptying bedpans of the elderly and profoundly handicapped.

What if they don't pass Fr8mech's credit check?   

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 64):
But, what about the buck-thirty or so on the difference between Cheerios and Toasted Oats?

Give it a rest. Go to your nearest ghetto grocery store and I bet the vast majority on food stamps are buying generic items and/or items on sale.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 64):
Then, they shouldn't be asking for my money. Government money should come with strings attached.

It already does.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 64):
They could always come back and get the generic, it's what I do when the store is out of the brand I like.

That is just nuts! Don't expect others to be that idiosyncratic (I'm being polite with this one) .
It would be a waste of time & gas for them to make two (or even three) trips to the store to save $2 on an item.
They'd lose any savings in gas or bus/train fare.


Come to think of it, welfare probably has always paid more than minimum wage. Welfare (AFDC) amounts is dependent on the amount of children you have when coming on to the program. At the bare minimum, it's to cover two people - the mother and child. A family of 3 children will obviously get a higher amount if they come on to the program with 3 children they already had prior to signing up.
Minimum wage is just one person's income. So of course welfare will be more.
Regardless, it's silly to make this argument. Welfare is intended to be a temporary fix. Minimum wage jobs aren't intended to be career or long-term jobs.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 69, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4279 times:

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 67):
Wow.... I agree with what you are saying, but I think it is a little too far.

Yeah, that is a little too far, but I'm being a bit outrageous to make a point. The preferred purchase should always be the cheapest. If a store sells 2 equivalent items, but one is cheaper, that is the one that EBT should pay for.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
He also thinks it's his right to poke his nose in people's personal finances

Yup, if I'm going to pay you to do a job, I think I should have the right to know whether you are reliable or not.

Have you ever been involved in terminating someone's employment because his personal finances interfered with his work? He used his company credit card to pay for his personal expenses, while using his cash to pay for his credit cards, then using a cash advance from his credit card to pay back the company credit card. In other words, he was floating cash from the company card...or his card depending on how you look at it.

What do you think we found when we pulled his pre-employment package and looked at his pre-employment credit report?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
Give it a rest. Go to your nearest ghetto grocery store and I bet the vast majority on food stamps are buying generic items and/or items on sale.

That's the way it should be. They should be buying the generics and cheapest, where available.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
It already does

Not enough.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
Welfare is intended to be a temporary fix.

  

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
Minimum wage jobs aren't intended to be career or long-term jobs.

     



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 70, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4273 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
What about a healthy pregnant woman?

That depends on the state I guess.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
You mean taught by a school system that's always in debt?

Generally school systems get funding from property taxes or through voters voting them money in one way or another. Debt in the school systems is basically a failure of the community to man up and deliver the funding necessary.

Then of course there is federal funding to education, put there is huge pressure there.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
You have some teachers that don't have a basic understanding of personal finance.

There are all kinds of teachers, just like there all kinds in other professions. I had some fantastic teachers. These days the situation is different With women having far ore opportunities that when I was in school you can see them move up. The good teachers of my youth might now go into law or some other profession.

That puts a lot of pressure on getting really bright people to go into teaching. The costs of the university education is the same as, say, an accounting or finance major, but the compensation will be far less. Then add in the demands of continuing education (meaning a of of teachers have a masters minimum), contractual requirements that teachers have do participate in out of hours work like a history teaching "coaching" girl's softball

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
Sure a few items in their basket may be of a name brand and that doesn't bother me. Many are able to make them stretch an entire month and have a few name brand items

Brand names are where you get the coupons. For a long time we had a grocers who paid double on coupons, ho to $1. There was even a show on TV where women were Coupon Masters, getting hundreds of dollars worth of coupons for under $20. All brand names. Brand names can easily be the way to go if your have the coupons. Might make it worth buying the Sunday paper just to get the coupons, getting other benefits actuallyu reading some other bits.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
Better not let people like BMI hear that kind of talk.

I don't tink BMI is aware of the very large number of engineers and other professionals that have been victims of downsizing in the past - like during the Bush I years where mid and upper level managers were the victims of downsizing. He believes that as long as he works hard he'll be fine. Just like those engineers working just as hard who did get downsized.


User currently offlinedarthluke12694 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 71, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 69):
Yeah, that is a little too far, but I'm being a bit outrageous to make a point. The preferred purchase should always be the cheapest. If a store sells 2 equivalent items, but one is cheaper, that is the one that EBT should pay for.

Wasn't sure if you were trying to make a point or not. Glad you were. The only problem with that is creating a system that can do that. That will become very expensive and complicated very fast. But I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 72, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4223 times:

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 56):
My family never had money and couldn't afford college. I'm a living testimony of how some one can do a career in the military and finish college at the same time. People who weren't successful in the military or out of it didn't try to better they're life one way or another.

I know I could never survive military. I never tried. However, I like having a paycheck, socialization, and eating. All of us do. Some of us get a doctorate in physics, some of us drive big rigs, some of us go into the military, some of us marry. We are all different.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
Because in order to be a "real" person you have to live on the streets?

I want the loudest complainers to get the extreme treatment. There are those who "get it" by simply visiting a poor neighborhood and others who can not even try to think outside their view until they are actually living an alternate life.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 62):
It's always someone else's fault is it?

In this case, it is. We the people can not set the prices for fresh produce and low-fat meats. Sure, we can choose to eat healthy. That is not a problem. However, when we can get Totino's pizzas 4 for $5 as opposed to fish and lean meat for $20, what will people go for?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 73, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 69):
I should have the right to know whether you are reliable or not.

Which will not be determined in a credit report. We went over this already.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 69):
Yup, if I'm going to pay you to do a job, I think I should have the right to know whether you are reliable or not.

Have you ever been involved in terminating someone's employment because his personal finances interfered with his work? He used his company credit card to pay for his personal expenses, while using his cash to pay for his credit cards, then using a cash advance from his credit card to pay back the company credit card. In other words, he was floating cash from the company card...or his card depending on how you look at it.

What do you think we found when we pulled his pre-employment package and looked at his pre-employment credit report?

Sounds like you were dealing with a crook.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
Generally school systems get funding from property taxes or through voters voting them money in one way or another. Debt in the school systems is basically a failure of the community to man up and deliver the funding necessary.

Are you kidding? On just about every election in just about every state, there is a bond measure to increase funding for schools. They always win in landslides. The US funds public eduction more than almost any other country in the world. The worse off schools get the most money.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
The good teachers of my youth might now go into law or some other profession.

Same here. Today those good teachers would have been fired or thrown in jail for spanking a lot of these bad @ss kids or offending someone...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
Brand names are where you get the coupons. For a long time we had a grocers who paid double on coupons, ho to $1.

  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 74, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4156 times:

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 71):
The only problem with that is creating a system that can do that.

I'm not a computer type, but I don't see where that would be a real hurdle. Like I said earlier, Kroger is able to match the digital coupon on my phone to my Kroger card. When I check out using the card, the coupon is automatically applied...no card or coupon; no discount.

Why couldn't the POS system have certain SKU's inputted that are bounced if the purchaser uses an EBT card? I envision 2 balances at the check-out...the first is paid by the EBT and the 2nd is a cash payment for items not covered by (insert welfare program here) or disallowed because there are less expensive alternatives.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 75, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4153 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
He believes that as long as he works hard he'll be fine.

Unfortunately he thinks he is in a 40 year career field - and will be shocked to learn in 20 years his training and skills are considered out of date and unwanted. While he is working at McDonalds and training to be a 'service industry professional' in his mid-40s - I doubt he will remember what he's posted here.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 76, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 74):
Why couldn't the POS system have certain SKU's inputted that are bounced if the purchaser uses an EBT card?

They do. When I go to any supermarket, it says on my receipt how much I could have paid for using EBT/food stamps. I have been in line next to someone buying food and bathroom products. They have to pay cash, debit or credit for the bathroom accessories but use EBT/food stamps for the actual food. If they don't have enough cash to cover the non-food items, they put back non-food items.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 77, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4104 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 72):
I know I could never survive military.

That depends on the service you choose. I went into the Navy because of the "See The World" nature of the service. Boot Camp was not really that physical and I asked for sea duty, which they happily gave me.

I did get to see the world, at least the Pacific side and that time was well worth it. The only difficult for some on the ship was having to wake up at 7 AM.  
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 75):
Unfortunately he thinks he is in a 40 year career field - and will be shocked to learn in 20 years his training and skills are considered out of date and unwanted.

SOme fields are even worse - think computer engineering. Smart companies had ongoing teaching to keep their engineers up to date. At one point HP would send their engineers to class a half day every week. Now that's smart.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4602 posts, RR: 23
Reply 78, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4100 times:

Reading through this one comment stuck out...

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
When I was working minimum wage jobs (high school and some college), the minimum wage was $3.35. There was no expectation that I live on that. It was pocket money. It was cash to go on dates or to a movie or pay for gas.

This was the minimum wage from 1981 to 1990. So if we look at the inflation rate over time that would mean the $3.35 in 1981 is equal to $8.61 today. Does that mean the minimum wage should be at least that at this point?

I am all for a complete rework of assistance programs like welfare. Let's set the compensation rate at or just below the minimum wage level. Then in order to receive assistance you are required to work at least 30-40 hours for the local government. This means you are going to be out landscaping, tearing down blighted buildings, fixing potholes, answer phone calls, doing light office work, meter reading...whatever. Your very basic, entry-level jobs. Setup the program to include job skills training and resume writing classes. Each person has 6-9 months to transition out of the program into real employment out of the system. They must maintain a job out of the system for at least 18 months before they could reapply for funds.

What this accomplishes is that it focuses us, the taxpayer, to get something for our money. For the person on assistance it provides them with job experience they can use to transition back to the workforce.

The one exception I would put on this would be the unemployment system. There are times when people are going to be laid off or cut backs happen and just need time to apply to a new company. In that situation I would see unemployment benefits be available for up to 6 months, with no government work requirement, and then an 18 month waiting limit on being able to file for unemployment again unless they were 1) with the company for at least 6 months and 2) unreasonably discharged by the company.

We complain about neighborhoods falling apart and such. We have 4.3 million people that we can use to put to work. That would be huge to put 4% of the people back to work. That would mean we are getting something from our annual $131 billion in taxpayer dollars which works out to over $30k per year per recipient on average.

The next part would be to tackle those on food stamps and why people need to be in the first place. $78 billion spent in food stamps or $133 per month. This is tough as I go back and forth on how to handle it. I would almost say just nix the entire program completely. People are going to need to live within their means or do what is needed to improve themselves.

If there is someone on assistance or those with little to no income (for tax purposes) you can get a free associates degree - at least - right now at any community college using Pell grants. That's up to $5500 in free tuition the government will give you to go to school and make yourself better. Perhaps that should be a requirement for those looking for assistance. If you want welfare or food stamps, and you haven't exhausted your Pell grant limits, then you can get your benefits working only 20-30 hours a week but must be enrolled full time with a GPA average of 2.5 or better to continue to receive.


User currently onlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 79, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 72):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 56):
My family never had money and couldn't afford college. I'm a living testimony of how some one can do a career in the military and finish college at the same time. People who weren't successful in the military or out of it didn't try to better they're life one way or another.

I know I could never survive military. I never tried. However, I like having a paycheck, socialization, and eating. All of us do. Some of us get a doctorate in physics, some of us drive big rigs, some of us go into the military, some of us marry. We are all different.

Society needs them all without them where would we get our fast food, yard work, space programs and so on.

You don't need to join the military to be successful, and its not for everyone. Whatever you do in life make the best of it.

Before I joined the military I had been working since my freshman year anything from shoveling snow, odd jobs, paper boy, roofing summer jobs for youth, salesman, Auto Mechanic.

I went to Job Corps after graduating High School to learn Business and Auto Mechanics. Being a Forest Service run Job Corps center they recruited seasonal fire fighters. I had to pass a physical fitness test and made it. Needless to say I made pretty good money at the time and enjoyed it although its no for the lighthearted. A lot of adrenaline moments and camping out.

The military was a stepping stone in my life. Like Ken777 said it depends on what you do. I was an Aviation Mechanic in the Navy (hardly a combat job. I suppose if I had joined the Army, Marines, or Special Forces (basically anything combat) life would've been much different. A good chunk of military are young out of high school with little or no job experience, and no work ethic I didn't join til I was old enough to drink.

The service isn't for impoverished people contrary to popular belief there were a few people that came from the ghetto, most of them come from regular lower-middle class families and a good chunk of them could've went to college instead, and upper class backgrounds. Some people came in just to get away from home at 17-18 and get a life education, some wanted to serve, have a check in the box for federal/civilian jobs etc...

I don't regret joining because once I got past boot camp and Tech school life got easier. I didn't have to march in formation etc... All I had to worry about was going to work figuring out what daily and unscheduled maintenance gripes needed to be fixed on the airplane. Sometimes we had the occasional unsafe landing gear indication, or hydraulic failure. I think the worst part was probably when we had a a broke jet and had to work overtime to get it up and flying the check flight or phased inspections.

My point is no matter what you do don't settle for the bare minimum make a life for yourself. Not everyone is going to well off or successful but eventually a person can better they're situation if they have patience and don't give up. Some people need assistance and it's there to help them. But there's people that abuse the system you know the ones that rent to own the nice TV's entertainment systems,and furniture when they get they're checks/

If you want to live off of entitlements then you're not in control of life. I only took food stamps once when I was 18 and was ashamed of it. In fact I hate asking people for money because I have too much pride.

There are three types of people in this world: those who make things happen, those who watch things happen, and those who wonder what happened. Get busy living or get busy dying.

[Edited 2013-08-24 15:07:30]

User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

Interesting event in the USA today, that fast food workers in 58 cities have gone on strike demanding a minimum wage of $15.00 per hour. IMHO thats way too much for a fast food worker. You took the job knowing what it paid, now live with it. Fast food never has been or will it ever be a job to support one self, its a job for a teen in school, extra pocket money, etc.
I personally think the minumum wage is fine where it is, or perhaps should be repealed. Let the market place decide how much a job is worth.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...13/08/28/low-wage-workers/2711379/


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 81, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 80):
I personally think the minumum wage is fine where it is, or perhaps should be repealed. Let the market place decide how much a job is worth.

This does not surprise me, nor millions more if asked. Let the market decide how much a job is worth. Evidently not much as we can see. Minimum wages are Serf wages today. It is funny, when I look around, I do not see Serfs, I see my fellow humans. Somehow, I cannot forget that. I wonder why I feel like that, and so many do not quite obviously. (Note) I used the term Serf, not what I wanted to use.  



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 82, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3789 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 80):
thats way too much for a fast food worker. You took the job knowing what it paid, now live with it.

Some people have no choice. Some people take that only job because they need to feed their family. Knowing full well they will be yelled at, be assaulted, be told and treated like they are worthless. All because they feel the need to contribute and support themselves.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 79):
no matter what you do don't settle for the bare minimum make a life for yourself.

Again, some have no choice. Most people do use fast food as a stepping stone. People think retail is so much better. It's not. It is just the same. A way to support oneself and their family.

The husband and I went to San Francisco last weekend and saw Priscilla: The Musical, based on the Australian movie "The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert". After, we went to eat. Knowing the workers were not paid much, and how much we paid, I still say we got a deal. We were good with it. And we left a tip.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 83, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3780 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 82):

Which is why i followed up the sentence with...Not everyone is going to well off or successful as the next person. A person can better they're situation if they have patience and don't give up. Some people need assistance and it's there to help them.

I'm not saying you shouldn't take a job with minimum wage. What I meant is don't settle for minimum wage career wise if you can help it. There's always a way to improve you're life if you're able and can see past whatever situation you're in. There are people physically/ mentally incapable, or too old to do anything about it. Like you said its a stepping stone, at least min. wage was for me.

I also said you need laborers as much as you need blue collar/ white collar jobs.

They aren't getting a $15.00 minimum/hr wage. Probably an increase but not doubling it. As much as I feel for them something like that would cause a domino effect middle class strikes etc. people will see what real inflation for goods are like and 15.00 an hour wouldn't do much good.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 84, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days ago) and read 3773 times:

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 83):
Not everyone is going to well off or successful as the next person

Yes. No matter how hard that some people work, they will just never get half as much as the other guy.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 83):
something like that would cause a domino effect middle class strikes etc. people will see what real inflation for goods are like

Problem is, in this day and age, inflation will happen because the top 5% want to keep even more than what they have. They will pass it on to everyone else instead of realizing we are humans and want to survive too. That person flipping burgers because s/he has no choice is making a fortune for the person at the top. How much of that windfall does that burger flipper see? None. S/he does all the work and gets zero reward.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4602 posts, RR: 23
Reply 85, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days ago) and read 3770 times:

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 83):
They aren't getting a $15.00 minimum/hr wage. Probably an increase but not doubling it. As much as I feel for them something like that would cause a domino effect middle class strikes etc. people will see what real inflation for goods are like and 15.00 an hour wouldn't do much good.

I just wonder why a job I started in the late 90s making $9/hr is still paying people $9/hr starting when inflation would make that nearly $13 by now. It's no wonder the work poor and lower-middle class has grown so much in our country. Wages don't keep up with the cost of living, but we are just suppose to deal with it. It would be one thing if the currency was stagnant or had slight deflation, but unfortunately that's not the case.

Though...with all these people making minimum wage and supporting at least one other person, how many have applied to go to a community college or educational facility to expand their skills. As long as their taxable income gets below a certain about (and they aren't claimed by their parents), they are going to qualify for $5600/yr in Pell Grants for 4 years to go to school. More than enough to get an associates from a community college nad half plenty left over to cover part of a bachelors.

I'm not sure what more can be done to provide an incentive to people to pursue that, since the money is a grant (no payback) already. Perhaps $7.25/hr if you aren't in school or have at least 2 years complete...$9.50/hr if you have 2 years/assoc degree complete at an accredited institution.


User currently onlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 86, posted (1 year 1 month 2 days ago) and read 3765 times:

Ok let's put it this way. They get the what they want then the dollar value will drop. That 15/hr would have nearly the same buying power as what they were making. What would that accomplish?

What would the supply and demand be for fast food? They could hire 3rd world workers or automate, unemployment would rise. People would do more grocery shopping instead of eating out. That Island Burger would be double or triple tge price. Not to mention Stagflation.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 87, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 84):
Problem is, in this day and age, inflation will happen because the top 5% want to keep even more than what they have.

No, Inflation happens when the government spends more than it can afford, and prints money to cover the difference.

And to top it all off, the US government (and others) keeps redefining how inflation is measured, in order to lie to the people that inflation really isn't happening. But if inflation were measured today using the same methodology used in the carter years, the US CPI inflation rate would be around 10%, rather than the preposterous 2% the government tells us. Anyone who goes grocery shopping, buys gas or rents an apartment knows that 2% is bullsh&t.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42551209

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 88, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 87):
Inflation happens when the government spends more than it can afford, and prints money to cover the difference.

Says the person who didn't have a problem when it happened 2001-2009.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 86):
What would the supply and demand be for fast food? They could hire 3rd world workers or automate, unemployment would rise. People would do more grocery shopping instead of eating out.

I am asking this as an academic: What about Safeway vs. WinCo? Union vs. employee owned? Fast food would never dare do that, but I just wonder what would happen? When I lived in PDX, I would shop WinCo (employee owned) because they had better prices versus Safeway or Fred Meyer (union) who had higher prices. I support unions, but employee owned who give themselves benefits is just as good.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 89, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 88):
Says the person who didn't have a problem when it happened 2001-2009.

Says the person who makes stuff like this up when he's against the corner.

Show me a single post in the past 10 years where I have said that GWB was a perfect, or even good, steward of our economy (aka one I "don't have any problem with").



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6617 posts, RR: 24
Reply 90, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 87):
But if inflation were measured today using the same methodology used in the carter years, the US CPI inflation rate would be around 10%, rather than the preposterous 2% the government tells us. Anyone who goes grocery shopping, buys gas or rents an apartment knows that 2% is bullsh&t.

While I agree 2% is a bit low, anyone claiming a 10% inflation rate has no credibility whatsoever either.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 91, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 87):
No, Inflation happens when the government spends more than it can afford, and prints money to cover the difference.

Work (which currency represents) currently being done or to be done in the future is more valuable to a society than work already done in the past. That is why currency loses value through inflation if you don't reinvest it in something productive.

Printing a bunch of money to cover overspending just makes it worse!


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6688 posts, RR: 12
Reply 92, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 86):
They get the what they want then the dollar value will drop. That 15/hr would have nearly the same buying power as what they were making.

In France (and other European countries) salaries roughly follow inflation, it is even mandatory for the minimum wage (and all wages in Belgium I believe). Still, the euro hasn't dropped, which is a big problem for many countries. You can argue it has in fact dropped, but the dollar has dropped as much, I guess.

Meanwhile economists mostly argue we should all get paid less to become "more competitive", in a great race to the bottom.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 93, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3658 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 91):
Work (which currency represents) currently being done or to be done in the future is more valuable to a society than work already done in the past. That is why currency loses value through inflation if you don't reinvest it in something productive.

Printing a bunch of money to cover overspending just makes it worse!

The money was not printed just to cover overspending. It was printed to get interest rates low and stay low so that employment and the economy would recover. Money has to be printed as the value of the items it represent increase, and the size of the workforce increases. The end of QE3 is now moving us to an area where hopefully the economy will take over and grow. When that happens, inflation will need to be tamed by raising interest rates for borrowing. At first through, items will get more expensive just because the value of what people hold in savings will be worth more when it is earning money. They will use this money to buy items at higher prices which will push inflation higher and increase demand for workers. This will continue , until savings are exhausted, and folks are overextended on overpriced loans. Then we will circle back in the cycle.


Printing money has value.

Taxes and Revenue will benefit from higher interest rates as all that money that is sitting in savings doing nothing will become revenue generators as the economy goes forward.

The next three months will be difficult as we watch the TP screw once again with the natural progression of money , taxes and a recovery by pushing forth a worthless agenda.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 94, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3658 times:

Not that i'm in favour of the minimum wage or welfare but the negative income tax cures the problem of the welfare trap described in the OP. It also doesn't kill jobs like the minimum wage.

It's shocking that this is never considered but i think that's just the fault of modern day partisan politics. Nobody actually cares about what works, they are more interested in opposing whatever the other side of the aisle is saying, as if belong to one side defines their very existence.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 95, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 93):
The money was not printed just to cover overspending. It was printed to get interest rates low and stay low so that employment and the economy would recover. Money has to be printed as the value of the items it represent increase, and the size of the workforce increases.

Artificially low interest rates do not cause economic recovery, they cause bubbles. In fact low interest attempting to suppress the .com bubble are what caused the crisis in the first place. The interest rate guides businesses telling them when to invest and when not to invest. They represent how much savings are in an economy. When the government manipulates them it sends the wrong signals to businesses, it tells them to invest when their aren't any real savings to invest with. This means that businesses invest in things that are not economically viable, and when inflation occurs and interest rates are forced to rise these projects fail and cause a recession.

The west is now in a state where interest rates have been so low for so long, it is now impossible to raise them without another possibly enormous recession. Central banks have basically fought a heroin addiction with even more heroin. I can't speak for the US but i know an awful lot of people here have tracker mortgages. The latest moron they've brought in here from Canada has recently announced that rates won't rise for another 3 years. He knows full well that the economy can not nor will ever be able to handle a rates rise so he's going to try and hold off the collapse until after the next election. But in those 3 years the problem will get even worse.

And all this time, new money is continually shafting the poor/fixed wage earners and benefiting the asset holders and bankers. The conclusion is that money printing is the greatest sin the government commits.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 96, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3629 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 95):
Artificially low interest rates do not cause economic recovery, they cause bubbles.

Before they can cause a bubble, they can cause a rise, that coupled with the proper monetary policy will keep thinks from becoming a bubble. Just as high interest rates can cause a decrease in spending. Low interest rates cause an increase.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 95):
The conclusion is that money printing is the greatest sin the government commits.

Money printing is the role of the Government. They control the supply. Policy must move between printing and pulling dollars.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 97, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 96):
Money printing is the role of the Government. They control the supply. Policy must move between printing and pulling dollars.

Fundamentally disagree there. The government can't plan the price of money any better than it can plan the price of cars, bread or housing.

The market can do that job perfectly fine itself.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 98, posted (1 year 1 month 1 day ago) and read 3538 times:

What are we defining "welfare" as? It looks like some think they are huge cash payments made to people who are living high on the hog but not working. However, when a person's income reaches a certain level, food stamp payments and health benefits are decreased as well as eligibility for rental assistance. The way all this works, of course, is that people must have some sort of income to begin with.

Consider this: a person needs to have income in order to pay rent when they receive rental assistance.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 89):
Show me a single post in the past 10 years where I have said that GWB was a perfect, or even good, steward of our economy (aka one I "don't have any problem with").

When GWB did anything economically (or anything at all) and it was questioned, you were in the top five to defend those policies. I went through 20 pages of your previous posts and it was only at 2010. You talk a lot  



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6688 posts, RR: 12
Reply 99, posted (1 year 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 97):
Fundamentally disagree there. The government can't plan the price of money any better than it can plan the price of cars, bread or housing.

The market can do that job perfectly fine itself.

Especially considering that the system we currently have was created by the US for that explicit purpose, with commercial banks creating money.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3070 posts, RR: 4
Reply 100, posted (1 year 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 6):
Makes a strong argument to eliminate or discontinue welfare.

Or, better, to raise the minimum wage.

Or even better.Lower Welfare! STOP THE DEPENDENCE!You'll always will be poor.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):

I have a friend that works in one of the social welfare offices here in Roanoke. Every once and a while I will go down there and meet him for lunch. I am always amazed at the line-up of pregnant women waiting to get in.
He says they just don't want to work, so they get pregnant and come get the freebie coupons. Multiply this by millions and you can see why the system is broken! Badly! They just keep on having babies and those of us who pay taxes keep on paying the tab. What fun!

   There it is ! That says it.

Some of you guys keep blaming the wealthy! UGH!!! But welfare breeds poorness and bad habits.Why then is there poorness still in the US? Welfare and freebees are not fixing the problem! It's growing the problem! Be self-reliant,independent and control your destiny


BTW-Welfare has been more costly then minimum wage.

[Edited 2013-08-31 16:13:07]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 101, posted (1 year 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 100):
BTW-Welfare has been more costly then minimum wage.

Exactly! Think about the correlation of the two. I applaud your example. Pay more, less welfare, a living wage. Not rocket science, or is it?

[Edited 2013-08-31 18:30:31]

[Edited 2013-08-31 18:30:59]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 102, posted (1 year 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 100):
Be self-reliant,independent and control your destiny

That would be great. If the poor people had access to getting their hands on money through work. When the poor work, they spend their money on things like rent, and transportation, and utilities, and food. Whereas the rich tend to prop up the economy by buying shoes and iPhones and clothes. But, yeah... I see your point: those pesky poor people trying to survive. They don't need any more help. /sarcasm



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 103, posted (1 year 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 102):
That would be great. If the poor people had access to getting their hands on money through work. When the poor work, they spend their money on things like rent, and transportation, and utilities, and food. Whereas the rich tend to prop up the economy by buying shoes and iPhones and clothes. But, yeah... I see your point: those pesky poor people trying to survive. They don't need any more help. /sarcasm

I just drove through the poor section of Providence today. A fast food joint on every corner, the big chains. They sure know how to exploit the needy. They sure know how to gather that welfare money. It makes one wonder why they do not pay more to their help. I guess they do not want to lose customers. A built in customer base, of billions in revenue.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3070 posts, RR: 4
Reply 104, posted (1 year 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 102):
spend their money on things like rent, and transportation, and utilities, and food.

Whoa,admit it! A lot of misuse of spending on those same, latest and greatest technology that poor people ALSO spend on!.So,that is not all accurate when some 47% are living better then I am.Sorry.I don't buy that sad story.

But then you feel that government should do nothing to motivate them to the work force by cutting down or cutting off social programs?

What is your suggestions to cut the number of poor? Because things have been in place for decades not improving things.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 105, posted (1 year 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 104):
Whoa,admit it! A lot of misuse of spending on those same, latest and greatest technology that poor people ALSO spend on!.So,that is not all accurate when some 47% are living better then I am.Sorry.I don't buy that sad story.

Could you write that so we can understand it? I think you are trying to infer that people on welfare actually have the purchasing power to buy things like PS3 and iPhones and brand new Lexus'. That is very incorrect.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 103):
They sure know how to gather that welfare money.

How? Last time I checked, only food from supermarkets could be purchased with food stamps. If you go to McDonalds with a food stamp card, the transaction will be declined. Same with WIC checks. The only possible way that would happen is with unemployment payments which are finite.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 103):
It makes one wonder why they do not pay more to their help. I guess they do not want to lose customers. A built in customer base, of billions in revenue.

Now you are thinking globally. This is what the international corporations (people) want.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 106, posted (1 year 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

•Failure to report income or money received.
•Failure to report the return of the absent parent to the home.
•Failure to report a child out of the home.
•Failure to report property or assets.
•Internal employee fraud.
•Duplicate Aid.
•Forgery or stolen identity.
•Receiving Public Assistance Benefits to which they are not entitled.


These are the types of welfare fraud listed in R.I. Not all use fraud, but many do. There is plenty of cash available in the community to go to the fast food chains, because of crooked merchants. I still say, it is not by accident that there is a fast food chain on every corner in the poor sections. I still say they go where the money is. I still say it is by design. I still say they pay their help lousy minimum wages. I still say they would hate like hell to see people paid more, where they could afford to patronize a better class of restaurant.

[Edited 2013-08-31 20:15:22]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 107, posted (1 year 1 month ago) and read 3320 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 106):
•Failure to report income or money received.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 106):
•Failure to report property or assets

Which the state has a record of. Believe me, in California, Oregon, and Washington, they let the people know and they do something about it!

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 106):
•Duplicate Aid.
•Forgery or stolen identity.
•Receiving Public Assistance Benefits to which they are not entitled.

Again, the state knows. Just like with voter IDs. It seems you have a solution in search of a problem.

But, also, I have to point out that the only things that can be used at fast food stores is cash or actual Visa/MC/AMEX/Discover cards and NOT food stamps. There is one pizza chain in the West authorized by those states to accept food stamp cards. But not for McDonalds, Jack In The Box, Burger King, etc.

As far as the others, that is on the honor system. Some people have no honor and those people need to be dealt with accordingly.

I think you and I are on the same page but speaking two different languages. I still think that people take minimum wage jobs at Wal-Mart and McDonalds and so forth because they have no choice. If those employers would actually pay well, there would be fewer people on food stamps. We all know this but no corporation wants to do anything about it. Cheap labor is the best thing for them.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 108, posted (1 year 1 month ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 78):
Does that mean the minimum wage should be at least that at this point?

The ,minimum wage should be above the poverty line. Until employers pay that then we all see our tax dollars to go food stamps, welfare, etc. It's called corporate welfare.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 78):
Let's set the compensation rate at or just below the minimum wage level.

Look at the poverty line before looking at the minimum wage. And remember a lot of those folks working as a waiter or waitress are pulling in around $3 an hour - plus tips. Time for that to change as well.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 80):
Fast food never has been or will it ever be a job to support one self, its a job for a teen in school, extra pocket money, etc.

And 40% to 50% are adults that are working those jobs because it is all that is available - and they are trying to raise a family.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 82):
All because they feel the need to contribute and support themselves.

Or there are no other jobs around - Old W & Dick made sure of that. If they don't hustle fast enough or say one wrong word they are out the door because there are a lot of people waiting to take their place - and they obviously are not protected by any union. Or politician.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 82):
Knowing the workers were not paid much, and how much we paid, I still say we got a deal. We were good with it. And we left a tip.

That top went to someone that will be lucky to make $20 K a year before taxes. How much of a tip did you leave? 20% minimum?

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 83):
What I meant is don't settle for minimum wage career wise if you can help it.

Far too many of those folks are adults that simply cannot get another, better paying job. Maybe they were doing OK, moderate income and paying bills. They W's Great Recession hit and they are at the bottom of the pyramid - often for the rest of their working lives.

You got a good job? Good. That means your taxes can help pay for their government benefits,

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 83):
There's always a way to improve you're life if you're able

Abel is the key word, Sometimes there are no other jobs. Sometimes the person is not the brightest - below average. We've all seen them, sometimes called "slow" in school. You know they have no chance at any real success, or breaking free of poverty.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 86):
They get the what they want then the dollar value will drop. That 15/hr would have nearly the same buying power as what they were making. What would that accomplish?

Not rally. Bumping up the wages might mean another 10¢ or so added to the cost of your Big Mac. The hourly rate is only a fraction of the total company cost. In retailing the objective is to hold personnel costs to the 8% to 10% range.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 86):
What would the supply and demand be for fast food? They could hire 3rd world workers or automate, unemployment would rise.

Not that much different in terms of demand as the price increases would be held in check with competition.

Someone like McDonalds hires 3 world workers and the DOJ will have a field day, as will local DA's. Might need to shut a few down to ensure the others understand.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 87):
No, Inflation happens when the government spends more than it can afford, and prints money to cover the difference.

Well, Old W did spend a lot - especially on the credit cared. We saw massive inflation in health care & related insurance, but that was because the government didn't provide core care via a tax - which exploded cost shifting.

And when government spends money, how much does that generate in tax revenues? Look at the total jobs impacted with a road program. Start with engineers, accountants, lawyers, etc. (and everyone working at their firm) and that is before anything physical gets started on site. These folks pay taxes in various forms.

Now start assembling resources - from heavy equipment to steel, sand, gravel, cement, etc. More private companies making money and paying taxes.

Now start looking at all the people working on site, operating machinery, overseeing the operations, etc.

Lots of jobs who be paying various forms of taxes as well as spending in the community - which generates more jobs & tax revenues.

So we spend $20 million on a road. How much comes back long term on that investment in terms of tax revenues? And jobs. Those jobs are important as they reduce payment of government benefits related to unemployment.

Maybe a bright economist can give you an exact "estimate' of the money flowing back into federal, state, county & local treasuries.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 109, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 101):
Exactly! Think about the correlation of the two. I applaud your example. Pay more, less welfare, a living wage. Not rocket science, or is it?

Why stop at the living wage? Why not make it a millionaire wage? Then we'd all be rich right?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
The ,minimum wage should be above the poverty line. Until employers pay that then we all see our tax dollars to go food stamps, welfare, etc. It's called corporate welfare.

It isn't corporate welfare at all. Businesses have no obligation to pay any particular wage just like consumers have no obligation to pay a particular price for their products. I thought people hated cartels but here we are.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 110, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3225 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 109):
Why stop at the living wage? Why not make it a millionaire wage? Then we'd all be rich right?

And if the gays get the right to marry, then people will be marrying their dog and then marrying their child.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 109):
consumers have no obligation to pay a particular price for their products.

We kinda do. We could actually be paying less per gallon for gas than we are now. We don't have a choice. We could be paying less now for a hamburger but we can't. We don't have a choice.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
How much of a tip did you leave? 20% minimum?

About 30%. Plus, by city ordinance, they also get health care. Anyone who works restaurant jobs in SF gets health care thanks to a surcharge on the bill. Knowing he is getting his health care paid for, I still knew he was not getting enough.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 111, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):
The ,minimum wage should be above the poverty line.

I'd say it should be at the poverty line, no more and no less. And as the poverty line moves, the minimum wage should move with it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 112, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 111):
I'd say it should be at the poverty line, no more and no less. And as the poverty line moves, the minimum wage should move with it.

Poverty line for a single person household is $11,490.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/13poverty.cfm

Assuming 50 work weeks at 40 hours per week, that works out to $5.75 per hour.

Are you advocating a drop in minimum wage?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 113, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 108):

To summarize, I realize not everyone can succeed or make more than minimum wage. I said that one way or another from my first post and on... Some people are destined to be poor.

I am only talking about people that can possibly move on . I started with nothing and yes I had to take those 3.35 /hr jobs. I did a lot of physical labor and long hours. Eventually things turned around it took several years to jump up a little. For some it's easy and others hard. I know someone who dropped out of high school and just finally went back their GED in they're early 40's. Now they're going to college and working.

[Edited 2013-09-01 14:05:19]

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 114, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 107):
I think you and I are on the same page but speaking two different languages. I still think that people take minimum wage jobs at Wal-Mart and McDonalds and so forth because they have no choice. If those employers would actually pay well, there would be fewer people on food stamps. We all know this but no corporation wants to do anything about it. Cheap labor is the best thing for them.

Even though we speak different languages at times, we agree on the main points. The prevailing attitude most read on here. Cheap Labor, not me. Cheap wages, for them, not me.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 115, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 109):
Why stop at the living wage? Why not make it a millionaire wage? Then we'd all be rich right?

Why? As far as I can tell, most people are just trying to pay bills and survive. I am one of them. We leave the greed to others.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 116, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODE/ProJo/


Some may enjoy the Al Lewis article, "Let them Eat Burgers" in the Wall Street Journal. Scroll to Page C10 in the Providence Journal after going to link provided. I think he hits the nail on the head about the weeping of the food corporations and the reality of real life.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 117, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3098 times:

Just a few numbers for people about burger workers pay which is minimum wage mostly. McDonalds pleading poverty. along with others about raising wages. In 2012 CEO Don Thompson received a 237% bump in compensation to 13.8 million. The Ex CEO was given a 215% bump for 2012 to 27.7 million. 27 mil. equals about 520.000 per week, about 13.000 per hour, based on a 40 hour week. Of course we all know they work 80 hours a week, leaving them a paltry 6500 per hour. If my figures are incorrect, let me know. My mind does not accept those figures easily for a wage, or should I say compensation package.


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 118, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3078 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 117):
If my figures are incorrect, let me know. My mind does not accept those figures easily for a wage, or should I say compensation package.

While I agree that those salaries are excessive (well, not all of it is salary - most is in the form of stock options. Actual cash compensation is closer to $4 million as I recall), those people who say "the CEO should take a salary cut to increase the wages of those at the bottom" need a little remedial math.

Assuming the salary you mentioned was all cash, and it were 100% distributed to the 420,000 employees of McDonalds, that would come to an additional $0.016 per hour.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 119, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 104):
A lot of misuse of spending on those same, latest and greatest technology that poor people ALSO spend on!.So,that is not all accurate when some 47% are living better then I am.Sorry.I don't buy that sad story.

A lot of people earning a moderate income have problems with financial budgeting. One reason why I believe it should be part of the last 6 years of school to slowly develop an understanding to the financial reality of life after high school.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 104):
But then you feel that government should do nothing to motivate them to the work force by cutting down or cutting off social programs?

Maybe we can start with outsourcing jobs that should be run by the government. Start with a lot of contractors doing traditional jobs in the military, like cooks, and security of military bases in was zones. That opens up jobs, een if it does

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 104):
What is your suggestions to cut the number of poor? Because things have been in place for decades not improving things.

Old W's Great Recession didn't help things, nor did going to war on the credit card. We also see the problem when looking at the ratio of the highest compensated in a company to the lowest. We have gone from a ratio of around 20:1 to close to 300:1.

That delivers a lot of wealth to the fortunate and a lot of shrinking of the middle class and an increase in poverty. And those at the top have the financial power to keep politicians as lap dogs so I really don't look for any significant increase at the bottom.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 106):
Not all use fraud, but many do.

Sort of like Wall Street hot shots padding their expense accounts. Or politicians getting their "fact finding"trips. If you "follow the money" you'll be looking up, not down.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 109):
It isn't corporate welfare at all.

Bull. All the government benefits for those in poverty allows companies to pay below the poverty line. You for a low minimum wage then you are indirectly supporting the taxes (or national debt) that will pay for those benefits.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 110):
About 30%. Plus, by city ordinance, they also get health care. Anyone who works restaurant jobs in SF gets health care thanks to a surcharge on the bill. Knowing he is getting his health care paid for, I still knew he was not getting enough.

That is about what should be paid - especially for low level bills. A waitress takes care of you for a $10 - $15 bill they need about 30%. You waiter/waitress is exceptionally lucky on the health insurance side. A lot earn $3 an out with no insurance and are sent home early on a "slow night" - to save the company $3 to $6. Can you believe that people on minimum wages are sent home early when things are slow just to save a few bucks/

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 118):
Assuming the salary you mentioned was all cash, and it were 100% distributed to the 420,000 employees of McDonalds, that would come to an additional $0.016 per hour.

Now multiply that my all the people making over $100K in the company and that low number changes.

You are also forgetting that paying a living wage might mean a 10¢ increase in your next Big Mac. Are you willing to handle that huge price increase?

BTW do you really believe that the guy making the $4 million is delivering the same quality of health insurance to all workers than he is getting?         


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 120, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 119):
Now multiply that my all the people making over $100K in the company and that low number changes.

Ah, so anyone making over $100K now is filthy rich and needs to be pulled down.

It used to be millionaires and billionaires. Then it was $450K and over. Then it was $250K and over. Now we are down to $100K.

How about everyone makes the same miserable salary, except those who are card-carrying members of the elite party?

That's never been done before...  

And by the way, labor costs consume about a third of a typical fast-food restaurant’s revenue. Numerous studies show that when the minimum wage goes up, employers make do with fewer workers, and low-wage employees lose their jobs. They go on the unemployment/welfare/disability bandwagon, and become Democrats. Sounds like the real reason why Democrats love to push the minimum wage...

Whenever the government tries to tell private business that the price of a commodity (such as labor) is anything other than the amount a person is willing to sell it and another is willing to pay for it, you will have such consequences.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 121, posted (1 year 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 120):
They go on the unemployment/welfare/disability bandwagon, and become Democrats

HUGE red flag. HUGE call for BS here.

Washington state minimum wage is $9. Not much in Seattle but a fortune in Walla Walla. The places I shopped and ate all across Washington seemed to be doing just fine with part time and full time staff paid at minimum wage, thank you very much. Consider that Seattle is really the only "liberal" part of Washington. Where we spent most of our time is ultra conservative. And they still make at least $9 an hour. And don't complain.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (1 year 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

I know a couple in California who adopted a 12 yo child.. She's now 16 and pregnant!

So the 'father' is 17 and failing high school (will not attend this year) and doesn't work. He says he's tried to find work but because he dresses like a gangster nobody wants to hire him.

His father is currently in jail and his mother lives off benefit. The family house is paid for by benefit and inside you'll find the grandmother who takes care of the family, the mother who does nothing, four kids (by different fathers).

The benefit family is excited by this new arrival and have already taken steps to increase benefits!

The adoption family is devastated.

So what does one do? Stop benefits and make things worse for this new child?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 123, posted (1 year 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3023 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 122):

So what does one do? Stop benefits and make things worse for this new child?

And there you go. I also know a few "benefit families" as you call them, and you are right - from what I've seen, it's mainly mothers who are actually teaching their teenage girls how to get in on the scam. It has become an industry.

Yes, when looked at individually, such benefits are not that big. But if you have a home with a mother (around 40), 4 or 5 of her daughters, each around 20-25 and each of them with several babies all living together, you have yourself quite a little business. It's quite common. And none of them would dream of getting married - the entire household would be impacted financially.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 year 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 123):
It has become an industry.

Yep
So what do you do?

The one who will suffer is the new born through no fault of its own.

Some people are proposing no increase in benefit after 1 or 2 kids but what if the parents have more for whatever reason?

If the girl i mentioned above does not put the child up for adoption the parents might phone childcare workers and say that the newborn is at risk and they will have to remove the child.

So what to do?? Another generation of benefit claimers or a new opportunity with a different family


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 125, posted (1 year 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 124):
Yep
So what do you do?

The one who will suffer is the new born through no fault of its own.

Some people are proposing no increase in benefit after 1 or 2 kids but what if the parents have more for whatever reason?

How about mandatory sterilization after the first child receives benefits. I think that's fair. Don't have kids unless you can afford to have them.

That should also provide some incentive for the woman to find other solutions (like having the baby-daddy marry her).



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 126, posted (1 year 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 66):
A lot of people on welfare already have jobs, or they are incapable of work. Most have families, and then what would you do with the kids?

I think most everyone is capable of separating garbage into categories, unclogging sewers, plowing a field etc. Make the kids work as well, or not eat, or go to jail.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
The good teachers of my youth might now go into law or some other profession.
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 109):
Businesses have no obligation to pay any particular wage just like consumers have no obligation to pay a particular price for their products. I thought people hated cartels but here we are.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 125):
That should also provide some incentive for the woman to find other solutions (like having the baby-daddy marry her).

Agreed, I think real parents provide for their kids. If a kid is being fed by taxpayers, the paternity should go to the taxpayer as well (for honors, not additional obligations). Kid should say "my true father is the one who puts food on my table - the taxpayer."

Quoting mad99 (Reply 122):
So the 'father' is 17 and failing high school (will not attend this year) and doesn't work. He says he's tried to find work but because he dresses like a gangster nobody wants to hire him.

That's no father. That's just a boy. Whether 17 or 47. A man or a father provides. That boy ought to be disciplined for what he did, but the girl should as well. Benefits should be zero. Let them earn their way. If not, take the baby.

The status quo policy is what is hurting these people. It causes poverty and violence.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 year 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 125):
How about mandatory sterilization

Probably not going to happen

Here in spain you get benefit for two years max then nothing. Here they keep lowering the amount and duration one can get it.

I think maybe it should depend on hoe much one puts in, if someone contributes over 40 years he should be entitled to more then 2 years. Also, to get the 2 years one must work a minimum and i think its about 4 years.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6688 posts, RR: 12
Reply 128, posted (1 year 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2991 times:

According to the Big Mac Index a Big Mac is 4,56$ in the US, and 4,66$ in the eurozone. Those are averages, I can attest that in France it's usually 3,5€, 4,62$ at today's exchange rate. So with a 9,43€/h minimum wage you can buy more than 2,5 Big Macs if you're French (and working at making such Big Macs, for example) while in the US you can barely buy two. This is with more expensive meat since hormones are illegal.

Now 9,43€ is not what a worker gets in his pocket, since social security/health care contributions are taken from the paycheck, so they really get 7,38€, still more than 2 Big Macs, but for that you get a pension and almost free health care (and 5 weeks paid vacation), free schools and universities, etc.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

I checked
Four months per year worked so after six years of work one is entitled to two years. I think you get close to 100% of your pay the first year and the second it drops considerately.

So here welfare can pay better than working for up to two years, after that time to get the finger out!


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 130, posted (1 year 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2970 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128):
According to the Big Mac Index a Big Mac is 4,56$ in the US, and 4,66$ in the eurozone. Those are averages, I can attest that in France it's usually 3,5€, 4,62$ at today's exchange rate. So with a 9,43€/h minimum wage you can buy more than 2,5 Big Macs if you're French (and working at making such Big Macs, for example) while in the US you can barely buy two. This is with more expensive meat since hormones are illegal.

Now 9,43€ is not what a worker gets in his pocket, since social security/health care contributions are taken from the paycheck, so they really get 7,38€, still more than 2 Big Macs, but for that you get a pension and almost free health care (and 5 weeks paid vacation), free schools and universities, etc.

Great and France has 11.5% unemployment vs the US's 7.4%? Terrific. And of course comparing minimum wage values doesn't say anything about what people actually do get paid, what your analysis is actually saying is "this is how much more value French people have to provide for them to legally get a job".

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 115):
Why? As far as I can tell, most people are just trying to pay bills and survive. I am one of them. We leave the greed to others.

I don't understand, wouldn't it be better if everyone was millionaires? Think about how good the standard of living would be for people who are currently suffering. I don't understand why if you support the minimum wage, you'd want to stop at a low level and not ensure everyone makes a 7 figure salary?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 110):
We kinda do. We could actually be paying less per gallon for gas than we are now. We don't have a choice. We could be paying less now for a hamburger but we can't. We don't have a choice.

Sorry, how could you be paying less for gas the you are now?

If you think you are being ripped off i suggest you start your own oil company up. I rather suspect you won't be able to produce oil for cheaper than you can buy it today though.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 119):
Bull. All the government benefits for those in poverty allows companies to pay below the poverty line. You for a low minimum wage then you are indirectly supporting the taxes (or national debt) that will pay for those benefits.

I'm for no minimum wage. The benefit bill will be lower if people are actually working and contributing to the economy, than being banned from working for the crime of being unskilled. Companies have no obligation to pay any wage provided it's voluntary. Would you like it if the government mandated a minimum pricing for the things you buy from these companies that was above what you currently pay?


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 131, posted (1 year 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2962 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 130):
The benefit bill will be lower if people are actually working and contributing to the economy, than being banned from working for the crime of being unskilled

People currently working for minimum wage ARE contributing to the economy. They are buying things. Even if the job is listed as "unskilled" they actually are contributing.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 130):
how could you be paying less for gas the you are now?

Everyone always complains about how the price of gas skyrockets when there is a hurricane or something but creeps down or even goes up when nothing is happening. We actually could be paying 50 cents less per gallon than we are now, but the oil companies will have none of it.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 130):
I don't understand, wouldn't it be better if everyone was millionaires? Think about how good the standard of living would be for people who are currently suffering. I don't understand why if you support the minimum wage, you'd want to stop at a low level and not ensure everyone makes a 7 figure salary?

Again, you are making the "slippery slope" argument.

And, for the record, everyone (yes, EVERYONE) wants to make 7+ figures. That same group of people want to work for it. Those of us down here at the bottom know the value of a dollar. However, we can not get enough of them together to invest in anything.

I think instead of your argument of starting everyone off at 7+ figure salary, how about the top 10% live off $25,000 a year for one year. Just to see how most of America lives. I bet things would change really quick!

Quoting mad99 (Reply 127):
Here in spain you get benefit for two years max then nothing. Here they keep lowering the amount and duration one can get it.

In the States, unemployment benefits end after a period and food benefits are lowered the more income one has.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 132, posted (1 year 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2956 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 131):
I think instead of your argument of starting everyone off at 7+ figure salary, how about the top 10% live off $25,000 a year for one year. Just to see how most of America lives. I bet things would change really quick!

You elitist prig. The vast majority of those 10% have had jobs as I have when we were young. Starting at mowing and trimming lawns, sacking groceries, working on Louisiana oil rigs during the summer (I'm lining up my 16 year old nephew for that job next summer). Trust me, after you gotten yourself drenched in oil and salt water for 14 hours per day throwing pipe in 100 degree heat, you know EXACTLY what the value of that paycheck is.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 133, posted (1 year 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2954 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 131):
Everyone always complains about how the price of gas skyrockets when there is a hurricane or something but creeps down or even goes up when nothing is happening. We actually could be paying 50 cents less per gallon than we are now, but the oil companies will have none of it.

But who would start an oil company if they weren't allowed to generate profits? You wouldn't be able to get oil at all if that were the case.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 131):
People currently working for minimum wage ARE contributing to the economy. They are buying things. Even if the job is listed as "unskilled" they actually are contributing.

Yes, it's the people who should be earning below minimum wage but are banned that are the ones that aren't contributing to the economy.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 131):
Again, you are making the "slippery slope" argument.

No, i'm not. The reason the minimum wage doesn't work for 9 bucks is the same reason it doesn't work for a million. It's the exact same economic parameters just at a different scale.


Quoting seb146 (Reply 131):
I think instead of your argument of starting everyone off at 7+ figure salary, how about the top 10% live off $25,000 a year for one year. Just to see how most of America lives. I bet things would change really quick!

Things sure would change quickly, the economy would grind to a halt because nobody could be bothered to do the demanding jobs that serve society.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 134, posted (1 year 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 118):
While I agree that those salaries are excessive (well, not all of it is salary - most is in the form of stock options. Actual cash compensation is closer to $4 million as I recall), those people who say "the CEO should take a salary cut to increase the wages of those at the bottom" need a little remedial math.

Assuming the salary you mentioned was all cash, and it were 100% distributed to the 420,000 employees of McDonalds, that would come to an additional $0.016 per hour.Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos

What does one need with 500k every week? What is the function of that salary? Where is the morality of that salary, while people have nothing, no hope, no jobs, no pride. It is a greedy rip off of the company. A manipulation of the rules by the power structure in place in most corporations. A corrupt greedy bunch who do so because they can. 27 million is 27 million, no matter how one wants to count it. If it was not, why would they term it as compensation? The sad part is he is not anywhere near the top tier of compensation.


I wonder how many times he visits the troops in the field like they used to do way back? Imagine him exhorting the workers to work harder, asking how their families and children are doing? He would not dare. The seeds of revolution are being sown every year we get closer to the have and have not's, with out any middle to keep the anger tamped down. I worked for close to half a century without class hatred in my thinking. Not so anymore.
All of the Champions of this system we have now, might well think of their children and grandchildren and the legacy of hate we are fostering by this injustice. Who do the have not's come looking for when the injustice and greed get to be too much? Labor Day 2013 What a country.

[Edited 2013-09-02 13:48:57]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 135, posted (1 year 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 119):
Sort of like Wall Street hot shots padding their expense accounts. Or politicians getting their "fact finding"trips. If you "follow the money" you'll be looking up, not down.

I would say, exactly the same.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 136, posted (1 year 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 122):
I know a couple in California who adopted a 12 yo child.. She's now 16 and pregnant!

So the 'father' is 17 and failing high school (will not attend this year) and doesn't work. He says he's tried to find work but because he dresses like a gangster nobody wants to hire him.

His father is currently in jail and his mother lives off benefit. The family house is paid for by benefit and inside you'll find the grandmother who takes care of the family, the mother who does nothing, four kids (by different fathers).

The benefit family is excited by this new arrival and have already taken steps to increase benefits!

The adoption family is devastated.

So what does one do? Stop benefits and make things worse for this new child?

And it will continue to get worse, ignorance, poverty, low wages, classic examples of the torn fabric of our society now. Show me the fairness in our system that will help this system improve. Billions are made everyday from ignorance and poverty. An industry in itself. One might say, a product of Capitalism in its purest form. Feed them the liquor, the drugs and the butts and welfare. We have a Capitalists dream.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 137, posted (1 year 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 126):
If not, take the baby.

We do and have by the millions, do you see things getting better?



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 138, posted (1 year 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 130):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 115):Why? As far as I can tell, most people are just trying to pay bills and survive. I am one of them. We leave the greed to others.




I don't understand, wouldn't it be better if everyone was millionaires? Think about how good the standard of living would be for people who are currently suffering. I don't understand why if you support the minimum wage, you'd want to stop at a low level and not ensure everyone makes a 7 figure salary?

I was, and I am sure millions more were taught that greed was not good. That exploitation was evil. To look in the mirror everyday and say, I like myself. I am 74 now, and I can say, that I never cheated anyone of a dime, and in return, though I have loaned many bucks to my family and friends. I have never lost a dime. Character is a term that comes to mind, sadly lacking now.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 139, posted (1 year 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2919 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
Trust me, after you gotten yourself drenched in oil and salt water for 14 hours per day throwing pipe in 100 degree heat, you know EXACTLY what the value of that paycheck is.

Ok. I agree, you earned your pay by hard work. Value received for work given. Do you think anyone truly earns 520k per week? Can anyone really do that much work? What is it again 13k an hour. I am worth it. A con job way out of proportion to reality.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6617 posts, RR: 24
Reply 140, posted (1 year 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2920 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
The vast majority of those 10% have had jobs as I have when we were young.

I think you'd be surprised at how few of today's top 10% have had jobs like that. While it was true in the past, most of today's wealthy were wealthy from the get go.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 125):
How about mandatory sterilization after the first child receives benefits.

I'm sure the religious right would love that!!

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 130):
I'm for no minimum wage.

The U.S. tried that, it was a miserable failure. Most of the population lived in abject poverty, women/children were taken advantage of, people had absolutely no savings and the economy routinely plunged into recessions/depressions that wiped out what little most people had. Granted, a very tiny minority of people got super rich during this time, but for the average American it was an ugly life.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 141, posted (1 year 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 139):
Ok. I agree, you earned your pay by hard work. Value received for work given. Do you think anyone truly earns 520k per week? Can anyone really do that much work? What is it again 13k an hour. I am worth it. A con job way out of proportion to reality.

That is pretty extreme, and I would support a very high income tax rate (say, on $10 million per year upwards) to dissuade that sort of thing - including eliminating the stock option deduction. But some people are worth their weight in gold due to exceptional management, leadership and/or visionary skills, like Steve Jobs, Jack Welsh, Jeff Bezos and Anne Mulcahy, and if a company is willing to shell out $50 million per year to attract someone of that caliber to work for them, who are we to say it is immoral?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 140):
I think you'd be surprised at how few of today's top 10% have had jobs like that. While it was true in the past, most of today's wealthy were wealthy from the get go.

I think you'd be surprised. My grandparents (on both sides) grew up dirt poor but made good fortunes for themselves. My father took a job in the LA oilfields even though financially he did not have to - my grandfather told him "You aren't dickin' off the whole summer - you are going to work!", and I got exactly the same treatment, for 3 summers in a row. It was good for me, and my nephew, who has otherwise been very spoiled, is going to get the exact same education next year, in spite of his family being wealthy. I think you will find that many wealthy families understand the need to give their kids a wake-up call and understand how much work that IPad or car represents.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 142, posted (1 year 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2903 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 141):
and if a company is willing to shell out $50 million per year to attract someone of that caliber to work for them, who are we to say it is immoral?

You miss the point. Nobody would care, that is how the system has gone off the rails. there is no wash down. It goes up to a relative few, as we can see with the current conditions of a shrinking middleclass and a growing poverty class. When I and you and many others of a certain age started out, we all expected the higher ups as we used to say to live better. We knew we had a reasonable chance at the golden apple. It inspired us to do better. They made an attempt to pay for labor, even though not too willingly. (Union pressure) Now that they have killed off that pressure, (Jobs overseas) (States stealing each others jobs) We see the bloated compensation, pay. This is a rape of that system, worthy of the Robber Barons of old.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 141):
I think you'd be surprised. My grandparents (on both sides) grew up dirt poor but made good fortunes for themselves. My father took a job in the LA oilfields even though financially he did not have to - my grandfather told him "You aren't dickin' off the whole summer - you are going to work!", and I got exactly the same treatment, for 3 summers in a row. It was good for me, and my nephew, who has otherwise been very spoiled, is going to get the exact same education next year, in spite of his family being wealthy. I think you will find that many wealthy families understand the need to give their kids a wake-up call and understand how much work that IPad or car represents.

I know, I have been there myself, abject poverty to middleclass. The wealthy have always known how to perpetuate wealth. I give them credit. You are talking the American Dream. Gone for more and more people, by intent, it has to be. Every now and again, the wealthy overplay their hand, and then we have class resentment. We are in that stage now.







Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 140):
The U.S. tried that, it was a miserable failure. Most of the population lived in abject poverty, women/children were taken advantage of, people had absolutely no savings and the economy routinely plunged into recessions/depressions that wiped out what little most people had. Granted, a very tiny minority of people got super rich during this time, but for the average American it was an ugly life.

They had that in Great Britain also, and we see that many would advocate that today, if we are that dumb to let them. I suggest that people look up the smiling faces of poverty in old photos. Canada, US, Great Britain, Ireland, everywhere. You can see the grinding face of poverty allowed no smiling. We know what changed it, Revolution, unions. Economic freedom was not given freely here, or anywhere else.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 143, posted (1 year 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

[quote=WarRI1,reply=134]Where is the morality of that salary, while people have nothing, no hope, no jobs, no pride.




Does a pig feeding at the trough have moral code? NO, they do not, it is survival. So that kind of behavior excusable in the animal world. So is 520K a week for survival? I do not think so. Are humans supposed to have a moral code? I think they should have. I also said how moral is it when others have nothing, but welfare, minimum wage, poverty, ignorance? I know the wealthy give a bunch to charity, but I give what I can, and it is not to assuage my conscience for raking it off the top, which may help contribute to the socio economic problems we have.

[Edited 2013-09-02 15:48:01]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 144, posted (1 year 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 140):
The U.S. tried that, it was a miserable failure. Most of the population lived in abject poverty, women/children were taken advantage of, people had absolutely no savings and the economy routinely plunged into recessions/depressions that wiped out what little most people had. Granted, a very tiny minority of people got super rich during this time, but for the average American it was an ugly life.

What you are describing is modern day america. Not quite sure how you can tie any of the above to the minimum wage though. The minimum wage causes poverty because it entails outlawing jobs that otherwise would exist - forcing people into unemployment.

You are drawing the usual flawed conclusion that the reason there was move poverty back then was because of the economic model and not because of the technological levels of the time.

Even the hardest leftie in the world should be against the minimum wage. I am happy to concede that there are left wing policies that will produce more equality, though at the expense of overall wealth. However, the minimum wage is purely destructive. A policy based on misguided ideology.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 145, posted (1 year 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 112):
Poverty line for a single person household is $11,490.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/13poverty.cfm

Assuming 50 work weeks at 40 hours per week, that works out to $5.75 per hour.

Are you advocating a drop in minimum wage?

I should have specified the 3-person household poverty line. That works out to just about $9.75/hour, which you could round up to $10/hour if you wanted. Then tie it to inflation and leave it alone.

The nature of the economy now is such that people do have to support families on minimum wage - they should be able to do so, but only at the poverty line, and only with one child.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 146, posted (1 year 4 weeks ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 133):
The reason the minimum wage doesn't work for 9 bucks is the same reason it doesn't work for a million. It's the exact same economic parameters just at a different scale.

No. You are saying "let's start everyone off at a million dollars and see what happens" which is akin to a slippery slope argument. I say don't let trust fund babies get mommy and daddy's money for at least 5 years. Make them be in poverty or below for a while so they see what their legislation does to the majority of us.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 133):
You wouldn't be able to get oil at all if that were the case.

The oil would still be able to be had, but the investors would be pissed your company is not making the same profit as Exxon.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 133):
it's the people who should be earning below minimum wage but are banned that are the ones that aren't contributing to the economy.

So, if people want to contribute they need to get high paying jobs they are not qualified for? How can a person do that? Get an education they can not afford.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
You elitist prig. The vast majority of those 10% have had jobs as I have when we were young. Starting at mowing and trimming lawns, sacking groceries,

AAAAAANNNDDD... the name calling starts so your point is moot.

However, I will say: GWB. Trust Fund babies.

There are those who did work their behinds off. But, others who cried to mommy and daddy when life didn't give them what they wanted.

The bottom line is: no respect for name calling.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
working on Louisiana oil rigs during the summer (I'm lining up my 16 year old nephew for that job next summer).

It's nice to know Louisiana has no child labor laws.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 573 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2829 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 136):
And it will continue to get worse, ignorance, poverty, low wages, classic examples of the torn fabric of our society now.

Sorry, i think you missed the point. These people do not want to work! The 'father' can't find a job and one of the reasons is he looks like a gang member. So how do you remove that problem? Don't dress like a gang member!!!

Responsibility, work ethic, right and wrong


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 148, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2818 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 147):
These people do not want to work!

They do. If they did not want to work, they would not fill out applications!!!

Quoting mad99 (Reply 147):
The 'father' can't find a job and one of the reasons is he looks like a gang member. So how do you remove that problem? Don't dress like a gang member!!!

The smart ones figure it out. Believe me. I have seen people who dress "gangster" get hired because they dress "professional" for the interview and job. The not smart ones end up eating out of dumpsters and the kids become award of the state.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 149, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2793 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 146):
No. You are saying "let's start everyone off at a million dollars and see what happens" which is akin to a slippery slope argument. I say don't let trust fund babies get mommy and daddy's money for at least 5 years. Make them be in poverty or below for a while so they see what their legislation does to the majority of us.

I'm not saying start everyone off at a million. If the minimum wage was a million pounds 99% of people would have no job. Or do you actually think if the minimum wage was set to a million dollars we'd all be millionaires?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 146):
The oil would still be able to be had, but the investors would be pissed your company is not making the same profit as Exxon.

Nobody would pump any oil out because it would not be profitable to do so.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 146):
So, if people want to contribute they need to get high paying jobs they are not qualified for? How can a person do that? Get an education they can not afford.

Honestly what the hell are you talking about?

The minimum wage is a ban on certain jobs. That means if you aren't skilled enough you are banned from working and contributing to the economy. That is my issue.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11677 posts, RR: 15
Reply 150, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2753 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 149):
The minimum wage is a ban on certain jobs. That means if you aren't skilled enough you are banned from working and contributing to the economy. That is my issue.

I don't understand. People who have no choice should suffer? People who can not find work in the field they were educated in should go without? People who have a kid at 17 and fight like hell to stay off food stamps should suffer?Besides all that, working, even for minimum wage, contributes to the economy.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 149):
Nobody would pump any oil out because it would not be profitable to do so.

So why do they do it now if it is such a losing proposition? Exxon has consistently pulled in profits over the past 20 years. Or were those reports they were putting out just lies?

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 149):
I'm not saying start everyone off at a million

But you did:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 109):
Why stop at the living wage? Why not make it a millionaire wage? Then we'd all be rich right?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 151, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 150):
I don't understand. People who have no choice should suffer? People who can not find work in the field they were educated in should go without? People who have a kid at 17 and fight like hell to stay off food stamps should suffer?Besides all that, working, even for minimum wage, contributes to the economy.

Where have a i suggested people should suffer, i genuinely don't know you are blathering on about?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 150):
So why do they do it now if it is such a losing proposition? Exxon has consistently pulled in profits over the past 20 years. Or were those reports they were putting out just lies?

The reason they do it is because they are allowed to profit.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 150):
But you did:

No i didn't. Anyone educated in the language of English should be able to realise that. I am beginning to think you aren't.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8296 posts, RR: 8
Reply 152, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2740 times: