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Syria: What Is To Be Done?  
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12435 posts, RR: 37
Posted (1 year 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8409 times:

So, we now know - or strongly suspect - that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons against its own people. What now?

The US government has stated some time ago that this was the red line beyond which Syria's government could not go. Was it wise to have said so? Certainly it was morally correct. Although Syria is not a signatory to the international convention banning the use of chemical weapons, the use of such weaponry and subjecting its own people to a horrific, agonising death is not something which the world can stand by and accept? True or not? Of course, we can just turn out backs, but the fact off the matter is that the US has said this openly. There is a real "(loss of) face" issue here and the US (and France - which once ruled Syria - and the UK) appear highly likely to take action against the regime.

What now?

The UK's parliament is to take a vote tomorrow and it looks like that two votes will be required; the opposition Labour party is demanding proof -presumably from the UN inspectors that this was indeed a chemical weapons attack. They also want a UN resolution, but that would appear impossible to achieve, since Russia and China are said to be against.

Nothing is likely to happen fast, which presents another problem: the Syrian regime has had over a week - and looks likely to have more time now - to move the weapons. Might there also be the possibility that the Russians will move weaponry including fighter acft to Syria, as a deterrent? I wouldn't put it past Putin ...

The extent of action planned is said to be limited, but is unlikely to be limited to known chemical weapons storage facilities. Syria's air power - runways and hangars at air bases - are also said to be likely to be targeted.

Will this action have the desired effect? Hopefully yes, if they can get the chemical weapons, but it just seems that there is so much scope for delaying tactics now that the prospect of successfully targeting and destroying all of Syria's chemical weapons seems to reduce by the day. Of course, after the Iraqi fiasco, the Americans will be anxious to do everything by the book, but if they are going to take action, they need to make sure if it effective and paralysing to the Syrian regime.

339 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6703 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (1 year 23 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

Unfortunately there are too many factions in Syria for any action to have a meaningful result. Dropping a few cruise missiles on air bases or weapons storage facilities may give the impression of doing something, but they won't stop the Syrian government doing what they do, basically because they know that no-one can stop them. They have the Russians and the Chinese in their corner waving the anti-imperialist flag and that's going to damp any thoughts of concerted action by others.

Any morality in all this has been kicked aside in the greater political game that's being played out and the poor people of Syria are suffering for it and will continue to suffer for because in the "game" they don't matter.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (1 year 22 hours ago) and read 8313 times:

Not that I advocate for/against military action but why do people assume that any action involves an invasion with ground troops and all? Does anyone remember Libya? Not one US troop set foot there.

That being said, unfortunately the US has already chosen a side and to not go through with the threats will either make it lose the little credibility it still has and seem two-faced. How will this play out? As long as the US is not carrying the bulk of the action, by all means. A "lead from behind" strategy could work.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7464 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (1 year 21 hours ago) and read 8282 times:

Here's the difference between Libya and Syria.

Libya had 2 defining lines between the opposing sides.
Syria is a factional and sectarian mess.

I'm afraid of weapons getting in the wrong hands-like Afghanistan.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25147 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (1 year 20 hours ago) and read 8264 times:
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Why would any action be taken? What does anyone want to actually achieve?

Is tis designed to punish the Assad government for using chemical weapons? Or is this deigned to remove Assad from power?

If the former, I don't know what it achieves if Assad stays in power. If the latter, is this yet anther exercise in "nation building"?

I never understood why "we" are in Afghanistan - except to catch bin Laden - but bin Laden is caught and no one has ever (successfully) explained to me why we're still there and what "victory" in Afghanistan looks like.

I agree that the Taliban was a brutal and oppressive regime, but hey, things are still rotten (especially for women) absent the Taliban. And hey again, Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe is fairly brutal and fairly oppressive, and he's still there.

I remember the countless posters here cheering the Egyptian revolution and the ouster of Murbarak - and look where that got us.

Mostly, I don't know how democracy can be imposed on a nation that has no real understanding of it.

It makes the US "look weak" not to do anything? I don't think so and I've never quite understood why the US should be expected to be the tough guy, the world's policeman.

So I am not sure why the US should do anything - red lines or not. I guess I'm willing to be persuaded.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (1 year 20 hours ago) and read 8244 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):

Great post! Clear thoughts well expressed.

Now, I have only one quibble with it - the first sentence. I would have preferred "Why should any action be taken?"

I am getting old and irrelevant details fascinate me!


User currently offlinecfcuq From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 19 hours ago) and read 8224 times:

mariner, i agree completely, comorin, don't get lost in the details. I find it interesting that a usa person and a couple of out of country people think alike.

User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 19 hours ago) and read 8218 times:

Humanitarian aid is as far as it should go.

User currently offlinekiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 18 hours ago) and read 8205 times:

I think that military action in this instance is far more justified than the action taken in the 2nd Iraq war. There is a significant and escalating humanitarian crisis, a significant regional security crisis, and a significant global economic impact.

User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (1 year 18 hours ago) and read 8190 times:
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The action will probably involve no aircraft, but missiles from ships.

It will happen, wether the UN emits any resolution or not.

It will probably involve destroying known (to intel) the depots where the chemical weapons are located. Maybe two or three infrastructure constructions to send a personal message.

The Mexican President was to have traveled tomorrow to visit Turkey on one of its most expected trips of his presidency. The trip was suspended for "internal reasons" Since nothing is going on here "internally" that would make our President suspend such a trip, this might be a clue when something might go down.



MGGS
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (1 year 17 hours ago) and read 8162 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
It will probably involve destroying known (to intel) the depots where the chemical weapons are located. Maybe two or three infrastructure constructions to send a personal message.

The problem being that said 'depots' would almost certainly be largely 'staffed' by conscripts and/or ordinary civilians. So US forces (plus, presumably, NATO allies like the UK armed forces) would be 'punishing' Syria for (allegedly) killing innocent civilians by use of missiles by - er? - killing innocent civilians by use of different sorts of missiles...........?

[Edited 2013-08-28 22:10:09]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (1 year 17 hours ago) and read 8156 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
I never understood why "we" are in Afghanistan - except to catch bin Laden - but bin Laden is caught and no one has ever (successfully) explained to me why we're still there and what "victory" in Afghanistan looks like.

I agree that the Taliban was a brutal and oppressive regime, but hey, things are still rotten (especially for women) absent the Taliban. And hey again, Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe is fairly brutal and fairly oppressive, and he's still there.

We're in Afghanistan because the original mission was not only to catch Bin Laden but also to remove the regime that allowed him and his organization to exist and thrive and replace it with a new one, and then to make sure that that regime is stable enough to survive on its own.

Things are not great in Afghanistan, that's true. And that's the whole reason that we're still there, though we've pretty much accepted the fact that nation building is a lot harder than we thought and that we'll just have to leave it in the best shape we can. As far as Mugabe goes, if he ever started harboring terrorists who attack the US we'll probably go there as well. But remember that while we certainly wanted to change the regime of Afghanistan, it had nothing to do with how that regime was treating its people and everything to do with that regime's support and hosting of Al-Qaeda.

Regime change in Syria would be a big problem, and we shouldn't get involved in that. But if we can reduce or eliminate Assad's ability to gas his people, that's definitely worth doing. Partly because there's a moral argument to be made for it, but mostly because we said we would. And people have to realize that we mean business when we say stuff like that (regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to say it in the first place - I'm not sure it was).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25147 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (1 year 16 hours ago) and read 8140 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We're in Afghanistan because the original mission was not only to catch Bin Laden but also to remove the regime that allowed him and his organization to exist and thrive and replace it with a new one, and then to make sure that that regime is stable enough to survive on its own.

Only the bin Laden part persuades me. I cannot imagine that much else in Afghanistan has changed.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Things are not great in Afghanistan, that's true. And that's the whole reason that we're still there, though we've pretty much accepted the fact that nation building is a lot harder than we thought and that we'll just have to leave it in the best shape we can.

The "hard" part may be true for the US - it certainly isn't true for Britain, which, over the past couple of hundred years, has made three failed forays into Afghanistan and should have known better.

I don't see how centuries - millennia - of attitude and behaviour can be changed unless there is an intense desire on the part of the people for change.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
And people have to realize that we mean business when we say stuff like that (regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to say it in the first place - I'm not sure it was).

I think pretty much the whole world understands that the US means its word. And sometimes, I wish it didn't.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (1 year 16 hours ago) and read 8133 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
Only the bin Laden part persuades me. I cannot imagine that much else in Afghanistan has changed.

The government does not harbor Al-Qaeda; Al-Qaeda may operate in the country, but it is not with state sanction. That's a definite change.

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
I think pretty much the whole world understands that the US means its word.

How can it if we let Syria get away with using chemical weapons if we said we wouldn't? It only takes one instance to get doubt spreading in the minds of those like Assad.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25147 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (1 year 16 hours ago) and read 8128 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
The government does not harbor Al-Qaeda; Al-Qaeda may operate in the country, but it is not with state sanction. That's a definite change.

For now maybe.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
How can it if we let Syria get away with using chemical weapons if we said we wouldn't? It only takes one instance to get doubt spreading in the minds of those like Assad.

Obviously, doubt already exists in Assad's mind, or else he wouldn't have done it - if he did it. But as I said from the git-go:

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
Is it designed to punish the Assad government for using chemical weapons?

How is Assad punished by some retaliatory action? He'd still be in power even if some parts of the country are broken, as some parts of it already are.

So what next? What is it that the US or the UK or France actually want to achieve?

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-28 23:06:20]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8133 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (1 year 15 hours ago) and read 8099 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
How can it if we let Syria get away with using chemical weapons if we said we wouldn't? It only takes one instance to get doubt spreading in the minds of those like Assad.

These people are smarter than you think. Tariq Aziz notwithstanding, even the trusted advisors of most world dictators are fully aware that the US has written the book, chapter and verse, on post-WWII realpolitik. They know to a certainty we will not act unless there is a pot of gold at the end of the road.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26949 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8044 times:

The vote in the UK was ditched because the PM knew it would not get through. There is little stomach for another involvement by British forces in another hopeless Middle East conflict.

It most likely will happen some sort of strike to take out or reduce the risk of future chemical attacks but I think all other avenues will be exhausted first to tame the doubters.

Russia is also sending ships to the region !


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7293 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8040 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
Why would any action be taken? What does anyone want to actually achieve?

This!

It's not a fight which the west should have any place in, leave it up to the Arabs to sort out there own issues. Saudi has heaps of nice toys and plenty of young men to use them and the money to pay for it, it's about time the west stopped pandering to bleading heart media images, toughen up and let the locals get on with sorting out there own issues.


User currently offlinegreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (1 year 12 hours ago) and read 8023 times:

Nothing. I am tired of the middle east. We do nothing we are to blame. We do something they hate us for interfering.

I just don't care anymore that they are killing themselves.

Seriously does anyone actually believe that the so called rebels will be any less brutal than Assad


Gs



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 7944 times:

Personally I think that Syria's air capabilities should be annihilated. Shoot every plane, every helicopter, every runway. It's impossible to hide those.

Don't forget the rebels are already controlling large parts of the country, including suburbs of the capital. Such action could very well tip the balance in their favor and cause Assad to either flee, negotiate, or die fighting.

I'm not sure what game Obama is playing, but Hollande has met with the head of Syria's main opposition group, Ahmad al-Jarba, this morning, and talked about "chemical massacre".

Air-defence frigate/destroyer Chevalier Paul has left her Toulon base last night for the theater of operations, where there is at least one nuclear attack submarine already.

The French president doesn't need the approval of parliament to attack. But we don't have the firepower to go alone, not unless we'd send all our navy (which is spread around the world).

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
It's not a fight which the west should have any place in, leave it up to the Arabs to sort out there own issues. Saudi has heaps of nice toys and plenty of young men to use them and the money to pay for it, it's about time the west stopped pandering to bleading heart media images, toughen up and let the locals get on with sorting out there own issues.

If Saudi Arabia goes, we're sure the end result will be worse for it. Al Qaeda was born there, remember.

Quoting greasespot (Reply 18):
Seriously does anyone actually believe that the so called rebels will be any less brutal than Assad

Yes. The rebels started with peaceful protests. Assad's answer was to snipe them.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 779 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 hours ago) and read 7939 times:

As an American taxpayer, I do not support any U.S. involvement in Syria. Let Syria sort out her own problems free of our interference.

User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7566 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7920 times:

My recollection was that negotiations were proposed before.

One condition by the FSA was that Assad must step down before negotiations started.

I do not recall if they would be prepared to negotiate with others in the Baathist Party.

In reality, there is no real scope for a negotiated outcome.

IMO, we are sleepwalking into another regime change.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7921 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Libya had 2 defining lines between the opposing sides.
Syria is a factional and sectarian mess.
Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Regime change in Syria would be a big problem, and we shouldn't get involved in that.

Removing Assad's government is going to result in a decade long (or longer) multi-faction civil war. The group to establish a new government and 'control' the country will be the one most radical and willing to shed the blood of thousands of Syrians who do not support them. Removing the Assad government will not stop the fighting, the killing or make Syria a 'safer' place for the world.

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
Syria's air power - runways and hangars at air bases
Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
Personally I think that Syria's air capabilities should be annihilated. Shoot every plane, every helicopter, every runway. It's impossible to hide those.

You do realize that will also destroy any commercial air travel in/ out of Syria for years?

Not saying that is a bad thing - but there will be people on this forum complaining.


User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7566 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7912 times:

I think that it is a given that civil air transport will be impacted.

iirc, most airports are dual use, as are other facilities.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7701 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 hours ago) and read 7909 times:
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I am not wholly sure of what we should do. I am sure, however, that past mistakes should not be the basis for a hasty military intervention. Fear of being labeled hypocritical for not intervening now when we have done before should not come into the decision-making process. I do not believe that any change of regime will likely be any better. Things in Iraq, Afghanistan and Egypt have not exactly settled-down perfectly, to put it mildly.

Any intervention should be UN-led, with the focus on protecting civilians. That much I do have clear in my mind.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
25 Aesma : Why for years ? Runways can be repaired fairly quickly. Look at Lebanon, Beirut airport has been disabled many times and it was reopened after a few
26 bennett123 : Presumably it depends on the weapons used. Firstly, weapons have expanded since the 1970's. Secondly, the UK/US were not involved in attacking these f
27 mmedford : If the US goes into this...expect there to be attacks on the soils of the UN peacekeepers because of the backdoor radicals Syria has. Only way to solv
28 bennett123 : Not a bit drastic?. Sounds like a return to MAD.
29 JoePatroni707 : We would not be in this position if back in 2003 at the start of the Iraq war the democrats got on board sooner to authorize the war. The chemical wea
30 RussianJet : I'm not sure that bombing anyone back to the Stone Age will help much, other than creating more generations of resentment and trouble, Any interventi
31 Aesma : I'm not pretending to know much about Syria, but this isn't Afghanistan. People there are educated. Many of the Islamists fighting there aren't even S
32 Acheron : Usually by people who think that democracy and human rights is "one-size-fits-all" affair In this case you would be replacing a secularist nutjob wit
33 stealthz : And how is that going to happen with Syria's puppet masters having power of veto in the UN security council. High time a re set of security council p
34 bennett123 : Who would you include as permanent members?.
35 SoJo : Thanks for saying just how I feel. Stay away and it will sort its self out. As long as they don't threaten us, stuff 'em.
36 stealthz : I wouldn't I do not believe there is a place in the UN for permanent Security Council members. Ths is not the '60s Giving any particular megalomaniac
37 bennett123 : Would you continue having a Security Council at all?.
38 stealthz : No But as I am not a fan of the UN or its abject failure to perform it's mission over the past 6 decades I may be biased. If anyone can provide an ar
39 DocLightning : Simply, actually. You write their constitution for them as a condition of military assistance and make it clear that any attempt to tamper with the b
40 bennett123 : I am aware of the limitations of the UN. However, the alternative is that anyone with plenty of guns has a free rein. Might is right. Seems a worse al
41 mariner : The history of Iraq - a created country - suggests that doesn't work. From almost the day of its creation Iraq has only ever been stable under milita
42 Ant72LBA : BBC reporting that British Parliament has rejected any military intervention in Syria - vote just in.
43 Post contains links TheCommodore : Great news. Lets hope that any US lead aggression, is halted too. http://www.smh.com.au/world/britain-...ilitary-action-20130830-2suay.html
44 JoePatroni707 : And that affects the USA how?? We dont need Englands support to attack Syria.
45 zckls04 : Maybe, but to say it doesn't affect the USA at all is ludicrous. Military action is always viewed as being less justifiable when taken unilaterally.
46 Post contains images einsteinboricua : A reform of the UNSC can be enacted where you strip the absolute veto power of the permanent members and if 3/5 permanent members vote for an action
47 damirc : Go right for it. Hope you are aware who you are helping with attacking Assad. Because the FSA is peaceful people who have been dragged into this war,
48 Post contains images Mortyman : Don't be silly I would perhaps add Brazil and maybe a smaller country like Norway We don't really know what effects a campaign against Syria will gen
49 Post contains links TheCommodore : You may well end up wanting/needing the UK's support. Especially if there is any truth to this article. "Russia sends warships to Mediterranean as Sy
50 777way : They seem to be deliberately trying to plant the pseudo Islamic regimes as part of some future strategy to attack and control the region when these g
51 ltbewr : The USA has let millions to die at the hands of civil wars and awful governments in Africa and Asia and where we did nothing. Why should be any differ
52 damirc : I honestly don't understand their agenda. The FSA was a legitimate force and the better option in the beginning of the conflict. Unfortunately they h
53 aerorobnz : Sit back and relax. One way or another Syria is F**ked. It's a far better option to let the natural course of things happen, let them do the demoliti
54 StuckInCA : I was thinking after reading your post that I should add you to my "Respected Members" list (meaningless as that may be). Alas, you are one of five w
55 solarflyer22 : This was my point in the other Syria thread. If you actually think the US government or average American cares much about 500 Arab Muslims being kill
56 seb146 : Again: horrible as Assad is using chemical weapons, when the United States gets involved in "regime change" the outcome seems to be worse than what w
57 KiwiRob : Been brinking from the Bush coolaid? Thre US doesn't need to get involved, in fact no western country needs to get involved. I don't believe Assad ac
58 pvjin : Bombing countries to stone age is a reliable way to help anti-western terrorist groups gain huge amounts of support, I guess that's what you want?
59 mad99 : Agreed Wiki says both sides have used them. Anyways what's so bad about them anyway, Tomahawks are so much better?
60 finnishway : What is to be done about this situation in Syria? There is just one answer and that one we can read from newspapers or watch from news. If USA decides
61 MD11Engineer : As for now we know that some toxic substance has been used, but we know neither what it was (nerve agent, blood agent, toxic industrial chemical or a
62 kaitak : If there is a doubt who used them, that - if anything - only emphasises the need to act, because it opens the possibility that rogue (or out of contro
63 Post contains links oly720man : In another incident an aircraft dropped a bomb containing napalm or similar on a school in the north of the country. Quite a few kids with serious bur
64 ImperialEagle : That was Obama who said that. Not wise. Inept would be a better description. Inept seems to be a fitting description for this administrations foreign
65 stealthz : Are they not the same thing? Your country cannot invest so much power in the "Executive Branch" then disavow them when you don't like their decisions
66 KiwiRob : So even if the Assad regime hasn't used them you still plan ojn taking out the Assad regime, I think that would be a huge mistake, Assad is as pro we
67 L410Turbolet : With the UK out of the game as far as military participation... will the US, possibly together with France, go for it alone? That would be certainly a
68 NAV20 : Simple question, I guess, but I can't find an answer on here. WHO is dropping these incendiaries? My 'best guess' is that Israel is. But, as far as I
69 Post contains links and images L410Turbolet : Good grief... you really are obsessed with them, aren't you? Believe me, Assad's and Ahmadenijad's boyfriend George Galloway is more than capable to
70 MD11Engineer : But this would mean boots on the ground, special forces or infantry, which, after Iraq and Afghanistan is a hot iron in the West. The other three pos
71 Flighty : We should not do what Obama is doing. Instead we should say with _reluctance_ that we may be available to assist, if cries for our help are loud enoug
72 NAV20 : I'm probably one of the few people on here who has actually seen incendiaries dropping (and burning), L410Turbojet. AND seeing the nearby burning hou
73 L410Turbolet : And that turned you into armchair weapons expert, who from his living room on the other side of the world "knows" it were Israelis dropping the bombs
74 NAV20 : So who WAS dropping them, L410Turbolet? The Koreans?
75 solarflyer22 : It's a fair question given the Iraq experience. Israel and AIPAC were both staunch supporters of going for regime change there. I don't think they are
76 Stabilator : Sure we can, if their decision goes against what they (Obama mainly) told the country during his election campaign.
77 flymia : Do nothing. It is a lose lose situation. Offer asylum to the people of Syria, give aid to bordering countries to take in refugees but that's it. It do
78 casinterest : Because it is indiscriminate killing. Biological, Nuclear and Chemical weapons are not for proving a point. They are for annihilation. We could stand
79 GDB : No such country. It's the United Kingdom. While it might not be important directly militarily, even Bush was very keen to keep the UK on side in the
80 Acheron : Genocides happens on a pretty common basis in Africa and at most they are hit with sanctions and embargoes. That's why the "humanitarian" aspect of t
81 SFBdude : Exactly! I mean, look at what israel has been doing all these years and they even get support for it! Gotta love double standards.
82 Aesma : How come the UK is usually such a lapdog to the US and its people don't give a damn and instead argue Brussels has too much power over them ? I heard
83 Post contains images ImperialEagle : Well, maybe made by the North Koreans and they have great friends in Iran. Hezbollah maybe? Hahahahah Really? I don't think they are thrilled. Jihadi
84 Mir : He is the government. -Mir
85 BestWestern : I watched 90 minutes of BBC world news last night, without one person on the Dont bomb Syria being interviewed. No neutrality in broadcasting whatsoev
86 Mir : And there's the saddest legacy of Iraq. People aren't seeing through anything - they're just afraid of getting stuck in yet another country in the Mi
87 solarflyer22 : Well you have to understand the media receives purposeful leaks from the government in an attempt to drive public opinion in a certain direction. Str
88 EL-AL : You guys are simply going crazy from having such a horror in the middle east with Israel has nothing to do with it, so you are trying to make it an I
89 Post contains links EL-AL : This video shows the chaos and mess of people in line for gas masks in Israel, this was the sight in the last week here. Having a crazy dictator usin
90 BestWestern : Most probably true - but not yet confirmed In Iraq, we were told there were WMD ready to be fired. The same global actors are now jumping to conclusi
91 solarflyer22 : Well I am sure its awful and you have my sympathies but I'm referring specifically to your government. I think we both know the kind of arsenal Israe
92 StuckInCA : I don't think it's that simple. When the war in Iraq was being debated, the economy was turning down, but we were coming off of a very prosperous tim
93 seb146 : Has anyone heard the chemical attack was made by rebels to get Assad out? I heard that theory a couple of times over the past few days but I don't kno
94 Mir : We were told that, but we also knew (even at the time) that that was no certainty - we figured that he probably had WMDs, but that they were anywhere
95 cfcuq : Why is it incumbent on the U.S. to take action in reply? ( country who used biological weapons against its own indigenous people by giving them small-
96 Mir : I don't get this argument. Yes, the US has done bad things in the past (and your example is way in the past) - those things are generally regarded as
97 seb146 : Except when Rumsfeld told us WMDs were "in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat". Then, just recently, denied
98 cfcuq : C'mon, Saddams weapon of mass destruction was ... he was going to change the exchange rate for crude oil from the U.S. dollar to the Euro. Would have
99 Mir : You're quoting me out of context. I said that while we had evidence that Iraq had WMDs, we had no evidence that Iraq was planning on using the WMDs t
100 KiwiRob : I agree with that theory, there is no upside to Assad using chemical weapons, but a huge upside for the rebels if they can use them and blame it on A
101 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : And do you know otherwise ? Man, you should really try living on the "other side" of the world, kinda gives one a whole new perspective on life. Espe
102 Aesma : Some posters here are saying that. Assad is saying that. The Russians are saying that.
103 Mir : Of course there is - if he thinks he can get away with it, it's a great way to terrorize his own people into submission. Which is all the more reason
104 TheCommodore : It does actually..... That's history, has a habit of repeating itself, over and over again. On that point alone, I'd stay the hell out of it !
105 Aesma : You're forgetting that you're talking about a crazy man.
106 Mir : Turning a blind eye to atrocities does seem to happen over and over again, yes. Might be a good idea to not do that quite so often. -Mir
107 Post contains images mariner : It isn't meaningless to me, I think there's quite a lot of upside and I don't really see a downside. Upside: He's scared the crap out of a lot rebel
108 bennett123 : The point is not, "is there an upside to him using them". The question is "is there an upside in him using them when the UN Inspectors are in town"
109 Mir : If he thinks he can get away with it, it doesn't really make a difference. Because judging by some of the reactions I've heard (including on this ver
110 GDB : You've sort of answered your own question, the UK is not a 'lapdog' for the US. Wasn't over Vietnam, or Suez, or for a period Bosnia, isn't with EU t
111 Post contains links Mortyman : Russian ex officer says Syria has the capabilities to shoot Down US missiles With it's S-300 system - The Syrian defense "may well be in possession of
112 KiwiRob : So you're a physiologist who has had sessions with him? I don't see him as being much different from any other middle eastern leader, at least he isn
113 ImperialEagle : A statement made out of ignorance. Take a look at the Jerusalem Post now and then. Of which this blog has no shortage of. Especially the seafaring on
114 Boeing717200 : If the videos are accurate, it's most likely a nerve agent. Delivery isn't that complicated. Could be something as simple as a smoke grande being thr
115 rfields5421 : The International version must be different than the domestic US version. Because I'm seeing a lot of stories on CNN about (1) the lack of any real a
116 Post contains links NAV20 : "The US has given its clearest signal yet that it is planning what President Obama has called a "limited, narrow" military attack on Syria." http://ww
117 Boeing717200 : There is no such thing as limited and narrow. The correct term is disaster. If we just bomb some crap and walk away, it's going to be a damn mess.
118 StuckInCA : I think it has an awful lot to do with it. And if something has to be done, it doesn't have to be done by the US. Certainly not alone (or with France
119 Flighty : Agreed. But also, if the Pentagon is unwilling to move a finger without additional funding (over $1T) there needs to be a massive chainsaw approach t
120 par13del : Therein lies the problem, you offer a similar half solution, without plans for who the new government will be, or the colonial structure to be put in
121 Post contains links solarflyer22 : Here is the State Department's official release on the subject with some light analysis: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2013/...ria-documents/index.h
122 Boeing717200 : To be fair, getting a Pentagon post in the military has always meant you were a good politician. At least there is some level of clarity then. Still
123 seb146 : And, from Rumsfeld's comments, the story was hyped up to "smoking gun is a mushroom cloud" and that because he has them, he will use them. Military a
124 Post contains images Stabilator : Anyone else afraid that the administration will try to justify the NSA's existence if they learned Assad was the one who ordered the attack through th
125 MD11Engineer : Here is a description of the main rebel factions in this civil war (translated from an article in this week´s German "Zeit" weekly): National Coalit
126 Acheron : Enjoy your new jihadi buddys, US of A. May they never come back to bite you in the ass...again...
127 par13del : Nah, they are all locals, every nation has local factions looking for power, in this case they have started a civil war which it appears they cannot
128 Dreadnought : Liberals enjoyed making fun of GWB, saying that he had gone rogue on Iraq, and the alliance of 40 countries (Great Britain, Australia, Spain, Italy,
129 Stabilator : It's a damn mess. GB is sitting this one out, and resolutions will be blocked in the UN by Russia and Co. If the rest of the world doesn't care enough
130 rfields5421 : Congress will have to give him approval in two weeks - or the Republicans will hand the Democrats a excellent campaign issue for the 2014 mid-year el
131 par13del : In the security council yes, but the majority of nations may pass a resolution in the general assembly, no teeth but moral outrage / justification. T
132 Stabilator : Thanks for outlining that. Didn't know there were multiple pieces to the UN (I thought every country fell under the SC banner)
133 11Bravo : Essentially you are right. This is a case, like Iraq, where I do not believe the national interests of the United States are at risk. It is horrible
134 Post contains images DocLightning : And, surprise surprise, he is going to ask for congressional approval. I am very happy with him today. You would be, too, if you could see past his p
135 TheCol : Like I said before, we, the West, have 2 options: 1. Sit around and wait until Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, or some other jihadist group finds a way to smuggl
136 StuckInCA : The thing is, the same people (including right here on Anet) who decry him now for considering action will decry him if he doesn't do it. There's no
137 Post contains images Mir : Not in office. Are you seriously suggesting that Obama is a hypocrite for not doing anything about Saddam gassing people back before he had even gone
138 seb146 : I wonder how many people are for a military strike but are against health care for all in the United States?
139 ltbewr : I suspect there are several reasons for going to Congress for approval. The delay until at least Sept. 9th, gets him past the Jewish High Holy Days a
140 MD11Engineer : I have been following the discussion on the inofficial British Army forum closely, where there are plenty of people with better knowledge about this
141 par13del : Every country does, but the SC cannot pass resolutions without the consent of the permanent sitting members like the US, UK, Russia, China, France in
142 par13del : If I may offer a suggestion, let your representative know that you support all manner of actions not military. 1. Withdraw all dipolmatic and economi
143 Dreadnought : Either way, that happens. That's his goal. Obama doesn't give a damn about the Syrians. He knows perfectly well that the public is very much against
144 Mir : So we need to wait for Congress to get back in session just for them to tell us what we already know? If the Republicans are going to demand input fr
145 AyostoLeon : A question that I asked in the other thread is "Qui Bono?" I was puzzled by the fact that the alleged use of chemical or biological weapons had been d
146 rfields5421 : The are two War Powers Acts - one passed in 1941 and another in 1942 - both giving the President (FDR) broad power to conduct the war and suspend the
147 ImperialEagle : Yes. Obama is all about politics. Yes. Just like the media. Can't trust anyone. It's all about the politics. Obama and his administration have proven
148 Mir : Let's say it is 2 or 3. The logical thing for the Assad government to do would be to say so and either punish the rogue unit (which might or might no
149 ImperialEagle : But what if Assad really is no longer pulling the strings and just appears to be? Out of desperation could he have not already turned it over to Iran
150 Post contains images AyostoLeon : Sorry but the quote function doesn't appear to work on my tablet device but I wish to further examine why Assad would think that he can get away with
151 Mir : It looks like he's going to, doesn't it? Britain won't act. France is backing down. The UN won't do a thing because Russia is holding it hostage. All
152 ImperialEagle : What if they held a gun to his head, so to speak, and said "it's better to be our puppet than a dead former Dictator"? Not possible? In any even, the
153 AyostoLeon : The argument that Assad is getting away with it rests upon the unproven assertion that Assad was responsible. Those in favour of intervention (and po
154 ImperialEagle : Exactly! Thank you!
155 par13del : You never know, they may just do that, it is only on the domestic scene especially on the economy and debt that they consistently kick the can down t
156 Mir : Very possible - I'm sure he's getting input from outside parties on a regular basis. It's still his decision to use chemical weapons - neither Russia
157 AyostoLeon : Yes, the job of Medicins sans Frontier is health and not investigation. Therefore evidence can be reliable as to whether people suffered the effects
158 Post contains images Acheron : They don't, at all. As shown by the constant voting against the Cuban embargo who usually ends up in +180 vs 3 in favor of its termination yet nothin
159 MD11Engineer : So have (most likely) some rebel units. Especially the FSA, which is made up from deserters of the Syrian Armed Forces. Also quite a few Syrian Army
160 mariner : Hmmm? The primary function of any media organisation is to deliver readers/viewers to its advertisers. The New York Times plays to its core readershi
161 solarflyer22 : Wow! When did John Kerry have dinner with the Assads and his wife ? Omg what a bunch of hypocrites. This bolsters my point that Assad wasn't THAT bad
162 rfields5421 : In 2009 when the US was trying to get Syria to move away from Iran. It didn't go anywhere and by the end of 2010, the efforts to get help from the Sy
163 Post contains links and images einsteinboricua : Just for the record, those were different times...you know...back when there was no civil war in Syria and the purpose of the meeting was to get Syri
164 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : http://www.latimes.com/world/middlee...mma-20130828,4290748,7039944.story Uh, how in the world does “not being mocked” support the national securi
165 ImperialEagle : Oh, quit nit-pickin. You know what I mean. Obviously they are in it to make money. It would be nice if they would keep us informed----accurately.
166 Post contains images TheCommodore : Julian Assange, Edward Snowdon, and the likes, are for keeping us all informed----Direct from the horses mouth. Cant get anymore accurate than that !
167 mariner : No, I don't know what you mean. Reporting accurately is, in itself, debatable, because people, journalists, see things differently. But you didn't as
168 cfcuq : Seems to me that the U.S. suffers from the "boy that called wolf" syndrome, tks to George W. Obama cannot win here, deferring to Congress is his only
169 Post contains links and images Acheron : Between 1980's and the 2000's yes, it was a different world. From 2009 to 2011?. Not so much Sarkozy tried to sell Rafales to Gaddafi a few months be
170 DocLightning : When was that picture taken? A business meeting (that's what this is; it isn't social) with a foreign leader does not constitute hypocrisy. That will
171 NAV20 : Forgive my - apparent - ignorance, but what does Israel have to do with what happens in Syria? As I understand the situation, about 75% of the popula
172 MD11Engineer : So how do you want Obama to react? Lob a few cruise missiles on long abandoned barracks buildings and presidential palaces in Damaskus? Like in Kosov
173 Dreadnought : First of all, Bush had authorization. Not very explicit, but solid enough. Second, the most important distinction in the Constitution is the right to
174 einsteinboricua : In a world constantly monitoring who wins a civil war for fear of a radical government taking hold, the least we should be doing is nothing. What if
175 Post contains links and images zkojq : People love to assume that because they haven't heard of a rebel group before, it must be an offshoot of AQ. I'm not saying they aren't there but it i
176 solarflyer22 : Wow. thanks for sharing. What worries me the most actually is that lack of learning on part of the US. I kind of hope they go after Iran because I th
177 MD11Engineer : Educated guess. If i were the commander, I certainly wouldn´t keep my weapon of last resort in a place known to the enemy, whese it can be captured
178 BoeingMerica : The United States needs to stay out. In no way shape or form does military action end in a better situation or greater foreign interest for the US. Th
179 PHX787 : I've sat quiet reading your opinions....and frankly for the longest time, I haven't the slightest clue what to do here. --Al-Qaeda is in the rebels, a
180 Aesma : France or rather president Hollande, who doesn't need nobody's approval to launch an attack, wants to intervene at this point (and for some time), he
181 TheCommodore : I don't disagree with any of what you've said in your post, except this. To suggest that the UN is hopeless because its "subjected to the whims of th
182 casinterest : It's not unfair though either. The UN functions as it does through the machinations of many countries and their competing interests. The UN in this c
183 PHX787 : Well I wasn't saying that the US wasn't guilty of subjugating the UN either. And as casinterest said, the UN is being strangleholded from actually be
184 Post contains links and images zkojq : I would think that western intelligence agencies probably have various 'sources' within the Syrian Army who could give them some idea of where the st
185 TheCommodore : I agree. But as I said above, this applies equally to the US as well. And they proved that to be the case many times in the past. Gosh, this is inter
186 BoeingMerica : Um yep, the US plays bully everywhere. If you don't agree with the US government then you are inherently in the wrong, regardless of logic or world s
187 PHX787 : Well you gotta look at what was going on at the time. Many of those vetoes were in the name of anti-communism...and after reading some of those propo
188 Post contains images Acheron : The same will happen if you openly go against Assad. The West In Russia's case it goes beyond the economic matters and into the geopolitical regardin
189 Post contains links pvjin : I guess some testing is already going on: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...g-east-mediterranean-ria-says.html[Edited 2013-09-03 02:46:09]
190 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Looks like Israel is sending up a few crackers.... Whats the occasion ? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11118992
191 BoeingMerica : I am not a fan of communism either (Not sure why you said socialism the second time? Not a fan either.) and I realize the world sentiment going on wi
192 Dreadnought : There is one exception - it is possible that an Al Qaeda or Taliban-type group takes over Syria, and gains access to the country's stockpile of WMDs.
193 rfields5421 : A previously announced missile test - though the exact time wasn't announced in advance, just that some testing would be done this month. There was a
194 kaitak : I was watching the Channel 4 News in the UK - a very good and detailed source of news; they interviewed a senior Republican on the Foreign Relations C
195 par13del : So the Arab league and the EU will not do anything, its the American's or bust? How about the UN, will they not ratchet up their sanctions?
196 Post contains links Dreadnought : There appears to be some evidence that perhaps Assad was not behind the sarin attack - that the whole thing is a setup to drag the US into the war on
197 roswell41 : The US should not be involved militarily in Syria. We (Americans) are not the world's police. We have no national security interest in the Syrian civi
198 einsteinboricua : Sanctions go through the Security Council and with China and Russia ready to veto anything related to Syria, you can bet that if there's no military
199 Aesma : Yes, they even threaten to veto "strong words". From a French politician and former diplomat that was seated being Powell in 2003 when he was showing
200 Post contains links NAV20 : Quoting roswell41 (Reply 197):The US should not be involved militarily in Syria. We (Americans) are not the world's police. We have no national securi
201 Post contains links damirc : Well, since Libya was such a success (read http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-lawlessness-and-ruin-8797041.html ) ... well, why not go into Syria
202 PHX787 : Completely different scenarios, as we have discussed ad nauseum.
203 damirc : How completely different? The UN mandate was to only maintain a No-Fly Zone. What transpired is rather known. I'd rather say it was more of the same -
204 solarflyer22 : OK I am marking it down. Sept 4, 2013! Noooooooo, never! I did see one intelligent suggestion online which was: Force Assad and his top brass out but
205 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Lets play Poker ! Apparently the war monger Senator John McCain was caught playing Poker whilst attending a pivotal congressional hearing in to strik
206 bmacleod : So looks like Russia is supporting Assad because of what it sees in Egypt...parts of Middle East just aren't ready to deal with democracy? Guess same
207 rfields5421 : The public hearing is only a media showcase. There is nothing really happening during Congressional hearings. All the information has been briefed to
208 Post contains links bmacleod : When Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds in 1988, Reagan was likely occupied with finishing his presidency and decided this matter would be taken care of
209 Aesma : Yes it's true that the resolution didn't allow what happened, but it was the only way to get Russia and China to sign it (and one of the reasons they
210 PSA53 : Yeaterday,on CSPAN, I watched Rep.Perry(R) from Pennsylvania questioned Kerry if Sarin chemical gas was a WMD.Kerry responded without hesitation with,
211 pvjin : Saddam didn't have chemical weapons anymore when Bush invaded Iraq.
212 casinterest : You forgot a major war that happened in 1991 that forced Iraq to abandon the weapons or face serious reprisals. There was a lot of unknown info, whic
213 PSA53 : But H.R. Bush,Bill Clinton and the Democrats,including Kerry,Kennedy and W. Bush felt Saddam had WMD.Three POTUS felt caution.And how do you know Ass
214 damirc : You are aware then the Iran-Iraq war was right? And the operative phrase is "did have". He actually seemed to comply after the 1st Gulf war of the ea
215 Post contains images par13del : Naw, they did it by spending their money on weapons while the Europeans tended to their economy You mean there were WMD's in Iraq?
216 PSA53 : Or moved them out of sight,maybe Syria.Remember, Bill Clinton felt it important enough to bomb Iraq to insist Saddam let UN inspections continue.And
217 damirc : I hope you're not seriously suggesting this? Any suggestions how exactly this wasn't picked up by satellite surveillance? ;D (underground tunnels?) A
218 GDB : You hear this so much and it's usually meant by those who say it. But the US is pretty much the de facto policeman. How many nations does the US have
219 PSA53 : For the record,I did say it many times on threads, was NOT for Bush W. going into Iraq.WAS for Afghanistan. No with Syria,at this time.Syria is not a
220 GDB : I wasn't thinking of you, actually your stance is the same as Obama's then! Until Syria. But I cannot ever recall a US President so reluctant to inst
221 PSA53 : Nor can I.I wonder if Obama is/was trying to bail out counting on the GOP to say no.Hmm..stay tune. Yeah,I remember that feeling.The US forces weren'
222 Boeing717200 : He put himself in a corner with this Red Line business and now he's trying to work his way out of it. His propensity to open his mouth has caught up
223 Post contains images TheCommodore : None the less. This guy is being paid by you and other members of US society, as tax payers. Wouldn't you be expecting a bit more form your elected m
224 par13del : This is stated in the news media also but he is done as president, this is his last term so the damage to him is minimal, if folks say it damages the
225 zkojq : Which is somewhat pointless, given that communism is its own worst enemy. He is an oldie. At least he wasn't asleep.
226 Acheron : No country does as long as it is of benefit to their own interests. That didn't stop the US from supporting clowns like Stroessner, Pinochet or Videl
227 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : He is in this pic, taken back in 2009..... I can see a pattern developing here. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0...652.html#s20621title=Larry_Sum
228 stratosphere : [ +1.. You are exactly right. Obummer is finding out that as a senator he could condemn and criticize Bush and his decisions (which by that way I didn
229 NAV20 : I expect that that is because he has been told that the Syrian problem cannot be solved by direct military action - just 'riding in and shooting the
230 par13del : You mean "good guys"? We all know the bad, we see the summary executions and abuse by all and sundry on a daily basis.
231 ltbewr : We are approaching the anniversary of 9/11/01 terror attacks here in the USA, which murdered over 3000 innocents, an act based on the policies of the
232 Aesma : Wasn't Romney far more war mongering than Obama ? So how come so much people suddenly don't support intervention ? Well the reason for intervention is
233 NAV20 : As I've said, Aesma, I 'support intervention.' But I think that it should take the form of a UN peacekeeping force, aimed at organising a federation
234 rfields5421 : You do realize in 1991, Syria was part of the coalition against Iraq. That Syria allowed several nations to overfly their territory to attack Iraq, a
235 casinterest : And you would prefer the continued Genocide within Syria? With Chemical weapons? That kill innocent people. a Neutralization of chemical weapons bein
236 11Bravo : I think we all know that's not going to happen. China and/or Russia would certainly veto any such measure not to mention that the UN has a catastroph
237 MD11Engineer : I have heard about plans to remove the Assad clan and the top brass, but without making the mistakes made in Iraq to disband the Baath party and milit
238 Acheron : The Jihadis winning would be a bigger threat than anything else. IMO, Turkey's opinion in this matter is irrelevant on the basis that they are in it
239 casinterest : It's always about the people. Those that forget it's about the people are the ones that are always doomed to failure.
240 Acheron : Only if you live in fantasy-land where you actually buy into "humanitarian" reasons. This is just about Iran vs. Saudi Arabia/Qatar and everbody else
241 Post contains images NAV20 : Fair enough, 11Bravo, maybe I got a bit 'carried away.' But, as it happens, I have been bombed in my time (by Hitler's Luftwaffe), and have also fire
242 Aesma : UN peacekeeping means you have to have a peace first. As for your description of bombing, this isn't WW2 or Viet Nam anymore, while some air forces st
243 Acheron : The Crazies are the ones with enough money, weapons and logistical support to face the Syrian Army. And more than enough to control and wrestle power
244 Mortyman : Well said ! Respect !
245 NAV20 : Exactly corresponds to my own impression, Acheron. Which is why (given that Aesma says there are only about 20,000 of them) I reckon that a properly-
246 GDB : He was asked a question about Syria, what's he supposed to do, not answer? Specifically what happens if.......? He had the 'stones' to make the decis
247 Boeing717200 : You don't let your inflated ego get the best of you. You simply state "we'll cross that bridge when or if we get to it". Many people involved in that
248 GDB : A few partisan types cannot change the basic facts. Face it, that was a difficult moment for a significant element of the GOP and their base. Great!
249 wardialer : Why cant they just send the US Navy SEALs to take out Assad??? Or why why cannot they send FBI agents to arrest Assad for using chem weapons?
250 rfields5421 : Yes I wish they would not waste our tax money by having these public hearings. The members have already been briefed, frequently with classified info
251 prebennorholm : Dear rfields, I am pretty sure that wardialer was only joking in his reply #248. Of course FBI or the Seals have no business on Syrian soil.
252 soon7x7 : Obama needs to land a dart in the bullseye but he will allow someone else to throw the dart. If it is a miss, it is not his fault. If it is a score he
253 solarflyer22 : Yeah this humanitarian talk and "The world has set a red line" and "Outside of International norms" are just sound bites that they use to try and per
254 wardialer : I would say the US has to keep out. Just because that the US is still recovering from the recession that happened 6 years ago. And plus, US has a Tril
255 GDB : So what would have happened if Operation Eagle Claw to release the hostages in Iran had been successful? Carter would have taken some of the plaudits
256 Boeing717200 : Keep drinking that Kool-aid man. I know it tastes great, but at the end of the day it's bad for you so don't drink too much.
257 zkojq : Sadly not. The problem with the jihadi members of the opposition is that they can (and will) leave Syria and go back home to whereever at very short
258 Aesma : The military strikes proposed will not even pop up on the US military budget, it's not like when you're not at war your military is free. You pay you
259 solarflyer22 : On an interesting but unrelated note and though its not reported in the media, Asma Assad is in fact a Sunni Syrian as I suspected. It seemed unlikely
260 Dreadnought : You don't think it's possible to "learn our lesson"? A decade of presence in both Afghanistan and Iraq, a fortune spent, and the transformative exper
261 Flighty : So, that appears to be Kerry, his wife, a Vatican altar boy, Assad and Hosni Mubarak? Average day.. It is disgusting. TIme for a new president. If Ob
262 Aesma : Well as you point out further down, there is no suggestion of an action remotely similar to those invasions, so the comparison is not that useful. As
263 PHX787 : I believe Rand Paul's coalition is going to smite this push to the dust. And Rand Paul as well is capitalizing on this for a potential presidential ru
264 Superfly : Bush was wrong for going to war in Iraq and Obama is wrong for wanting to go to war with Syria. Bush had the support of Congress including many Democr
265 Mortyman : After the "Either you With us or Your against us" treath, yes ... The US threatend Norway With ending the many, many decades long good relationship w
266 par13del : So we hear all the no's about the US military intervention on Syria, ok, we have a general consensus. Now can we hear from the coalition of the willin
267 Superfly : You're preaching to the choir my friend. Just because someone criticizes Obama doesn't mean that they're a Bush supporter. You'll never catch me defe
268 Post contains links Dreadnought : First of all, exactly what was this "threat", and how was it strong enough to convince nations to send troops? Did Bush bomb France? I don't think so
269 Post contains links seb146 : And he used that same quote time and again to gain support for the invasion of Iraq. Don't forget the lies and falsified intel that got us there in t
270 Dreadnought : You mean by the Clinton Administration? Joe Wilson? Are you accusing the Obama administration of fabricating a case for intervention in Syria, in the
271 Mortyman : Did you read what I wrote ?
272 seb146 : How? The No-Fly Zones that were enforced? How did Clinton carry out a full-scale invasion? He didn't? He simply let Saddam rule his way because we ha
273 Post contains links DocLightning : http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/08/wo...ria-civil-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 According to the article, the rebels have attacked Christians and their home
274 Post contains images kiwirob : Unlike the rebels who allowed this photo of them executing govt troops. Neither side in this are worth supporting, the West needs to stay the hell aw
275 Dreadnought : Bill Clinton (And Hillary) fully supported the invasion, and wanted to oust him as far back as 1998. Obviously not politically viable pre-911. Read t
276 Post contains links L410Turbolet : How come France is all of a sudden departing from the usual "who needs enemies if you have allies like the French" line and literally tripping over i
277 TheCommodore : Yeah..... good question. And they are financially broke too. Of course, but they originated from those countries to start with generally. And there's
278 powerslide : I say wait for both sides to kill each other then rent the place out for the Palestinians.
279 solarflyer22 : Iran actually has mutual defense treaty with Syria so there is no legal basis to declare support illegal. Ditto for Russia which would veto anyway. T
280 Post contains links and images DocLightning : Ah, yes, but how better to support the military and security industries? I get an increasingly sinking suspicion that this is about money. There's on
281 Post contains links Dreadnought : Rep. Alan Greyson, normally a loyal Obama supporter, says that the evidence the administration is presenting has been "completely mischaracterized."
282 seb146 : German intel saw this too. Link in post 269. And still had contacts she could safely meet with. Until she was outed by the Bush Administration. And t
283 kiwirob : Back in the day when Norway didn't order as many F16's as the US expected them to order Congress slapped a nice big tarriff on Norwegian salmon, it w
284 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : The latest from the Amateur Hour Administration: Assad has one week before we unleash an unbelievably small attack. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2
285 Post contains images Mortyman : That's a long time ago. I was referring to more recent Things
286 MD11Engineer : Maybe because this war was started by Iraq´s Saddam Hussein, who wanted to take the opportunity of the chaos in post-revolutionary Iran to nick thei
287 GDB : So, this move by the Russians pressing Assad to put his WMD's beyond use in a week, these were the weapons they insisted that he did not have? It woul
288 MD11Engineer : Maybe they are also worried about Sarin or VX turning up in the Moscow underground, in case the stocks get captured by the rebels. Jan
289 GDB : Yes, for all the stuff coming out from Damascus, notwithstanding reports of Assad's forces gaining the upper hand, is his military situation worse th
290 TheCommodore : Haven't heard that before, just that they say, "they" (Assad) didn't use them. Yes. And at this stage, they have offered a good solution to the debac
291 MD11Engineer : Or like the Ceaucescus, stood against a wall after a quick kangaroo tribunal. Jan
292 Aesma : There is two sides to every story. During the Gulf War, an operation that overall worked out and should have strengthened alliances, France discovere
293 okie : Two things here. One it would mean that Putin would have to put more boots on the ground for implementation which could take years if you would go by
294 Post contains links TheCommodore : As I understand it, Russia is proposing the CW be under "international" control, not Russian control. Quote from article.... "Kerry, asked what could
295 okie : That was Kerry's off the cuff comment, a Russian diplomat made the official proposal whether in response to Kerry's comment or of their own initiativ
296 solarflyer22 : Wow, thats super shady. I cannot imagine why they would do something like that. I'm glad they have their own satellites now. I think Iran knows bette
297 PHX787 : That would mean UN control... This is basically Russia's idea of a compromise. I say let's talk to Russia now. They may not be the US's best friend,
298 Pyrex : What I find funny about this Russian proposal is that a guy gasses his own people and his punishment is to take away his toys (chemical weapons). Is
299 seb146 : So you are now for an all-out assault? Just to be clear: I am still very much against ANY action by American forces in Syria. Let Russia form a reaso
300 PHX787 : My thoughts now: We should've talked to russia from the get-go. We should've forgotten the whole Snowden issue and just go to the closest ally of Syri
301 DocLightning : It's frustrating, but the US plan was never going to deliver Mr. Assad. The best we could have hoped for was to kill him by arranging for him to be s
302 caliatenza : Well CNN reported that Obama and Putin have been talking about this for almost a year or so, but probably after Assad actually used the weapons, did
303 kiwirob : Get rid of him and wait and see what a mess it Syria turn into.
304 mham001 : That is Obama looking and playing the part of the foreign policy amateur. You wrote that quote over a week ago and it still holds true as it has been
305 OA260 : Sadly I have come to the conclusion that its best to stay out of it. The minority Christians are worried that if the current government falls they wil
306 Post contains images par13del : All we can say is hmmm, perhaps western intelligence improved since the last Iraq war? I thought only the Americans and Israelis had those "irrationa
307 solarflyer22 : The US hasn't changed its policy of arming vetted rebel groups and the Saudis and Qataris are funding the rebels hand over fist. The field I think wa
308 seb146 : If the United States sends in missiles, the whole world will pay. Russia and Iran are allied with Syria. Iraq is powerless and Saudi Arabia is only k
309 NAV20 : Can't say that I like that attitude, mham001. My experience was only with field artillery - and only practising at that - but it usually took us at l
310 Pellegrine : My opinion is let them be, and don't get involved. This could get ugly faster than hawkish politicos think...the US population is war-weary as well. I
311 Dreadnought : I don't know of anyone who has ever said anything like that. It's simply that he's an amateur who has painted himself into a corner time and time aga
312 mham001 : The problem is, Obama drew a line and keeps backing away. If he couldn't do it, he should have not said it. I understand you feel innocent lives will
313 Acheron : Matters little. Anyone with half a brain knows no American president, Republican or Democrat, would dare to touch a nuclear armed country, no matter
314 Aesma : Usually France is the country that can talk to both the US and Russia, that was done since the beginning of the revolution, and it went nowhere, Russ
315 mham001 : That's the whole point. We hold out a military option a means to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. If Obama is seen as weak and unwilling
316 MD11Engineer : How comes? Assad is a rather secular dictator, who is mainly interested in staying in power (together with his supporters). He belongs to a rather se
317 prebennorholm : I'm not so sure about that. I think that Russia will do their very best to get all chem weapons out of Assad's hands. Russia is scared of having thos
318 Dreadnought : Let's assume their goodwill. According to the latest news, the Chemical weapons will not be removed from Syria, but will be destroyed or simply guard
319 WarRI1 : I most certainly agree, when Russia offers to help, it is to help themselves first and foremost. They are trying to protect their navy base also.
320 Post contains links Mortyman : A Plea for Caution From Russia What Putin Has to Say to Americans About Syria http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/op...-from-russia-on-syria.html?hp&
321 Pellegrine : Just because you are anti-Obama, anti-Democrat, and hawkish does not make Obama "an amateur." An amateur at what? That's pretty silly.
322 GDB : While I understand the objections to intervening in Syria, have you not considered that many of the last and even current generation of Western polit
323 Post contains links Acheron : If you go the revisionist way and completely disregard who actually trained him and a few other tribal pashtun groups in the 80's to wrestle control
324 Post contains images Superfly : Question; Did Obama run a background check on these Syrian rebels before arming them? If that's the case then Obama should bomb Monsanto.... It was Ob
325 SOBHI51 : I am not going to answer any of this BS about let them kill each other and such stupid comments. But i am really astonished by the way of thinking of
326 gatorman96 : IMHO, our administration never wanted anything to do with Syria in the first place. The "red line" crap was set to save face, but no one in the Obama
327 gatorman96 : And there is the rub with arming the rebels or executing a military response. They currently have a common enemy. Remove that enemy and the rush to f
328 par13del : The only problem with this is that it totally ignores the combatants on the ground who may have initiated the conflict for whatever reasons and bough
329 MD11Engineer : How many of these CW shells have already been either taken by deserted former members of Syria´´s military or captured by rebels? Jan
330 gatorman96 : Who knows? I'm sure more than we'd like to know though...
331 deltadawg : Ok, so he is not an amateur. He is indeed a professional community organizer. Looks great on your resume. My question to the whole Syrian mess is why
332 solarflyer22 : I can sympathize with gripes on the leadership but I would just bring up two points. One is that our government officials, regardless of party, bungl
333 GDB : I agree it was an act that 'seemed a good idea at the time', that was, aside from the moral considerations, stupid. It was also 60 years ago. How was
334 gatorman96 : Again, it was a way for the administration to look tough on Syria, without actually having to do anything as they believed that "red line" would neve
335 GDB : Well what should the 'action' be? At least 70% of Americans against any US involvement, unlikely to win votes for military action on Capitol Hill and
336 DeltaMD90 : What do you think about the "red line" comment? Not trying to back you into a corner or anything, just hear your thoughts. Did you think it was a goo
337 seb146 : No. He is smart enough to know there are no absolutes in politics. Is he obligated to act? No. It is a civil war. None of our business. I think he fo
338 DeltaMD90 : That is apples to oranges really, the two aren't the same thing. But why shouldn't people be holding "feet to the fire" ?
339 Post contains links jetblueguy22 : Hi All, This thread has become quite long so Part 2 has been created. It can be found here Syria: What Is To Be Done? Part 2 (by jetblueguy22 Sep 14 2
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