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Japan To Fund Ice Wall To Contain Reactor Leaks  
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Is it just me, or is this something out of Scooby Doo?

Quote:

TOKYO—The Japanese government announced Tuesday that it will spend $470 million on a subterranean ice wall and other steps in a desperate bid to stop leaks of radioactive water from the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant after repeated failures by the plant's operator.

How could this possibly go wrong?   

Quote:

Atsunao Marui, an underground water expert at the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology, said a frozen wall could be water-tight but is normally intended for use for a few years and is not proven for long-term use as planned in the outline. The decommissioning process is expected to take about 40 years.

"We still need a few layers of safety backups in case it fails," Marui told The Associated Press. "Plus the frozen wall won't be ready for another two years, which means contaminated water would continue to leak out."

Marui said additional measures should be taken to stop contaminated water from traveling under the seabed during that time and leaking further out at sea.

What are the odds of no more major earthquakes over 40 years?

Ref: http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...n-fund-ice-wall-stop-reactor-leaks

Meanwhile we read:

Quote:

The crisis at Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant "has not ended", the country's nuclear watchdog has warned, saying the situation there is "unstable".

Watchdog chief Shunichi Tanaka also accused the plan's operator of careless management during the crisis.

He added that it may not be possible to avoid dumping some contaminated water into the ocean.

Ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23933551

The picture from the BBC link :



shows the real issue: TEPCO has been storing 400 tonnes of contaminated water PER DAY on site in all those temporary water storage towers. The first article says:

Quote:

TEPCO has been pumping water into the wrecked reactors to cool nuclear fuel that melted when the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami knocked out the plant's power and cooling systems. The utility has built more than 1,000 tanks holding 335,000 tons of contaminated water at the plant, and the amount grows by 400 tons daily. Some tanks have sprung leaks, spilling contaminated water onto the ground.

Some sources describe the tank joints as being rubber, other concrete. In either case, they are vulnerable to (you guessed it) radioactive water!

It seems to me that everyone involved has been doing their best to ignore the issue, but now we read:

Quote:

The leaks came as Tokyo headed into the final days of the contest to host the 2020 Summer Olympics. With anti-government demonstrations plaguing Istanbul's bid and a recession and high Spanish unemployment hanging over Madrid's candidacy, Tokyo is pushing its bid as the safe choice in uncertain times.

That's it, let's just ignore that radioactive water leaking out of those jury-rigged tanks and have ourselves an Olympics!


Inspiration, move me brightly!
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2121 times:

Well the Sanriku area is hit by a major quake every 100-200 years...we just had ours.

The chances of that fault line rupturing like it did are so slim now. They also have designed these things to be earthquake proof...you think they forgot that?

The seawall is being rebuilt there at a height of 35 feet as well.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1986 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2111 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Well the Sanriku area is hit by a major quake every 100-200 years...we just had ours.

I don't think it works that way. That's why places have "100 year" flood events only a few years apart.

A quick google search shows that (at least) some researchers have it as 30% odds of a magnitude 9 earthquake in this region within 30 years (well, more like 29 years now).

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/analysis/AJ201201020001


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9040 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2111 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
The chances of that fault line rupturing like it did are so slim now. They also have designed these things to be earthquake proof...you think they forgot that?

Nothing is really earthquake proof. That has been shown too many times in the past.





Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
The seawall is being rebuilt there at a height of 35 feet as well.

Too little too late, I think so anyway.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3100 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
TEPCO has been storing 400 tonnes of contaminated water PER DAY on site in all those temporary water storage towers

That is roughly 100,000 gallons per day.
My thought is that surely they have by now figured out how to either decontaminate to acceptable levels or concentrate to lower volumes.

From what I can tell they have not really made public what their plans are to deal with or control the damaged reactors other than to keep pumping in water.
Creating 100,000 gallons of contaminated water per day for a century does not seem like much of a plan.

Okie


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
we just had ours.



Really, And you cant have another one ?

Actually, here it is. right now!

Another Earthquake rattles Southern Japan.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11119375

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 3):
Too little too late, I think so anyway.

I agree.

Japan is going to need a couple more nuclear reactors, to provide all the power its going to take to make all that ice. !

And for how long, 10,000 years ??



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14060 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Freezing the ground to waterproof it is an old and proven technology in tunneling and sinking shafts through aquifiers and to stabilize the soil temporarely(e.g. to prevent groundwater from running into a half finished mine shaft or tunnel until the inner, waterproof liner has been completed).
Usually a series of boreholes gets sunk around the proposed shaft. Pipes get lowered into these holes, through which a very cold salt soultion circulates (cooled by an external freezing plant). The soil around the boreholes freezes together like a hollow cylinder and prevents the groundwater from outside to run into the mine shaft, which is being dug out in the centre. So this in not some crazy idea, but a working way to prevent contamination of the ground water.
The method has been used since 1915.

Wikipedia link in German (no English language version available):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefrierschachtverfahren


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
The chances of that fault line rupturing like it did are so slim now. They also have designed these things to be earthquake proof...you think they forgot that?

As you know, TEPCO is far from transparent about what they do, so one can be free to think they are 'forgetting' the basics. The fact that only now they are considering moving to tanks with welded joints makes me wonder. It seems their decision making is in paralysis. They are at best trying to stabilize the situation and have made no real progress towards remediation.

Quoting okie (Reply 4):
That is roughly 100,000 gallons per day.
My thought is that surely they have by now figured out how to either decontaminate to acceptable levels or concentrate to lower volumes.

My understanding is that they have made an on-site plant to reduce contamination to acceptable international standards so it can be released, but they are not being allowed to release it due to political/social concerns, thus the huge tank farm. Currently that plant is broken down (guess why - excessive corrosion!) but a newer/better one is being built, so I am told.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
So this in not some crazy idea, but a working way to prevent contamination of the ground water.
The method has been used since 1915.

Right, but from what I've heard, never to this scale, and never for this duration of time. In most other cases it's used to stabilize sections of earth so that a permanent structure can be built, and once that structure is built, the ground will be allowed to thaw and settle. In this case the earth is contaminated and so no one is proposing the permanent structure be built.

The article says:

Quote:

The ice wall would freeze the ground to a depth of up to 30 meters (100 feet) through a system of pipes carrying a coolant as cold as minus 40 degrees Celsius (minus 40 Fahrenheit). That would block contaminated water from escaping from the facility's immediate surroundings, as well as keep underground water from entering the reactor and turbine buildings, where much of the radioactive water has collected.

The project, which TEPCO and the government proposed in May, is being tested for feasibility by Japanese construction giant Kajima Corp. and is set for completion by March 2015.

Similar methods have been used to block water from parts of tunnels and subways, but building a 1.4-kilometer (0.9-mile) wall that surrounds four reactor buildings and their related facilities is unprecedented.

So they will be attempting to keep a 1.4 kilometer line of earth frozen to a depth of 30 meters for 40 years, which is unprecedented!

They say that they also need to drain and divert incoming ground water. About 1,000 tons of underground water runs into the complex every day. This is the water that is mixing with the radioactive water being used to cool the shattered reactors, and whatever water they cannot recover ends up carrying radiation out to sea.

Still amazed that Japan is not stepping up to deal with this situation. All responses so far seem tepid.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1996 times:

The quantity of water per day is impressive, I would have thought that by now they would have jerry rigged a solution to have the reactors mostly watertight (with manageable leaks) and then used a closed loop for cooling. An open loop creating infinite quantities of contaminated water is a mess getting messier every day.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8181 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Still amazed that Japan is not stepping up to deal with this situation. All responses so far seem tepid.

The problem is TEPCO, not Japan. The energy ministry has traditionally been in cahoots with the Big 3 utilities and their officials are comprised mostly of retired utility company directors.

TEPCO management seems content to keep f'ing up this entire thing until the government steps in and pays for everything. Yeah well, guess what idiots - nobody here wants to pay for that.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
I would have thought that by now they would have jerry rigged a solution to have the reactors mostly watertight (with manageable leaks) and then used a closed loop for cooling.

You'd think so, right???



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
TEPCO management seems content to keep f'ing up this entire thing until the government steps in and pays for everything.

It would seem the right thing to do is to privatize TEPCO and make the cleanup a national priority. The way it's going now, the radioactive can keeps getting kicked down the road.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14060 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
So this in not some crazy idea, but a working way to prevent contamination of the ground water.
The method has been used since 1915.

Right, but from what I've heard, never to this scale, and never for this duration of time. In most other cases it's used to stabilize sections of earth so that a permanent structure can be built, and once that structure is built, the ground will be allowed to thaw and settle. In this case the earth is contaminated and so no one is proposing the permanent structure be built.

The article says:

Quote:

The ice wall would freeze the ground to a depth of up to 30 meters (100 feet) through a system of pipes carrying a coolant as cold as minus 40 degrees Celsius (minus 40 Fahrenheit). That would block contaminated water from escaping from the facility's immediate surroundings, as well as keep underground water from entering the reactor and turbine buildings, where much of the radioactive water has collected.

The project, which TEPCO and the government proposed in May, is being tested for feasibility by Japanese construction giant Kajima Corp. and is set for completion by March 2015.

Similar methods have been used to block water from parts of tunnels and subways, but building a 1.4-kilometer (0.9-mile) wall that surrounds four reactor buildings and their related facilities is unprecedented.

So they will be attempting to keep a 1.4 kilometer line of earth frozen to a depth of 30 meters for 40 years, which is unprecedented!

They say that they also need to drain and divert incoming ground water. About 1,000 tons of underground water runs into the complex every day. This is the water that is mixing with the radioactive water being used to cool the shattered reactors, and whatever water they cannot recover ends up carrying radiation out to sea.

Still amazed that Japan is not stepping up to deal with this situation. All responses so far seem tepid.

It depends if they temporarely stablise the ground by freezing and then build a concrete wall around it (e.g. by drilling large diametre holes side by side, touching each other, if possible until bedrock, and then filling them with concrete, like the drilled pillars used for foundations in sandy soil, e.g. in Berlin). Then one could see the ice barrier as a temporary coffer dam. It would win the engineers some more time to find a permanent solution. It think the main reason why freezing was so far only used with smaller structures is that it is so damn expensive. Since they are now already deep in the brown stuff, money should be their last consideration. Another item is to reduce the amount of radioactive water, e.g. by filtering and distilling it to remove solid and disolved radioactive contaminants. There should also exist a process to concentrate the tritium, after all a tritium atom is about three times as heavy as a normal hydrogen one and we are not talking about the minute difference in atomic weight as e.g. between U235 and U238. Expensive yes, but doable. I´m sure that our resident nuclear engineer knows a solution for this problem

Jan


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
Since they are now already deep in the brown stuff, money should be their last consideration.

That's the crux of the problem. TEPCO really doesn't have the financial resources to deal with the problem. All the nuke plants in Japan are off-line till they can prove they meet increased safety standards. Of course these four will never be online again. Therefore TEPCO isn't bringing in cash and is spending very large sums just to continue doing the half-steps they are doing at Fukushima as well as securing electricity via other sources.

As above, the government and the taxpayers certainly don't want to own the problem, but it seems unavoidable to me.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3100 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
The quantity of water per day is impressive, I would have thought that by now they would have jerry rigged a solution to have the reactors mostly watertight (with manageable leaks) and then used a closed loop for cooling. An open loop creating infinite quantities of contaminated water is a mess getting messier every day.

For lack of something better to do last night I read the Tepco proposal to the IAEA for remediation of the site, 42 pages if I remember right, which was submitted before the latest problems have cropped up.

A 40 year project so it seems.
Basically it calls for 10yrs to get the reactors and fuel storage under control before remediation starts on the reactors.
While the proposal is a plan of some sort, the issues seem to be is that everything that needs done will have to have some sort of R & D to come up with the process to deal with the issues.
The remediation proposal is just laced with R & D at every step because equipment and procedures do not exist to deal with the conditions. (heat, high humidity, corrosive, radiation)
R & D just to manufacture equipment to remove the parts of the buildings damaged to even get close to the reactors and build the equipment will take years. They will have the same issues as the elastomers used in the storage tanks with shaft seals, hydraulic lines, or any elastomer due to the radiation. Once the equipment is contaminated how are you going to repair it or retrieve it from the buildings if it breaks down?

About the only thing that was really addressed was the disposal of the core material in which they indicated that they had TMI as an example. That process is 15-20 years down the road.

Looks like a life long project for many engineers and remediation workers.

Okie


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 5):
Another Earthquake rattles Southern Japan.

Ahhhhh you're reading the news! Shame on you! Don't believe what the news says on Japanese earthquakes.

That was 1) Eastern Japan
2) Not strong
3) 404km deep (too deep to cause damage)
4) only felt as minor shaking in Tokyo (my friend said she slept through it)
5) Did no damage at all in Tokyo and no disruptions at all that day. The only day's disruptions came from a large tornado, 5 train suicides which tied everything up in Tokyo today, and a line of sever weather. It was a mess in Tokyo today but not cuz of the quake.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
The problem is TEPCO, not Japan. The energy ministry has traditionally been in cahoots with the Big 3 utilities and their officials are comprised mostly of retired utility company directors.

This is a shade of the early-90s Japan which screwed up Japan for the last 20 years. Very bad cooperation, no transparency, and safety violations galore. Mr. Abe is PISSED royally, from what I heard, and that's why he's saying that he wants to get this crap over with AND PROPERLY over with.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1842 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
It would seem the right thing to do is to privatize TEPCO and make the cleanup a national priority. The way it's going now, the radioactive can keeps getting kicked down the road.

I think you mean nationalize TEPCO (a French specialty) and apparently that's already going on.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
I think you mean nationalize TEPCO (a French specialty) and apparently that's already going on.

They nationalized TEPCO last year cuz they can't afford to do the cleanup on their own.
TEPCO can't be privatized any more. If it was, it'd immediately go bankrupt.

I think what should happen is this:

1) TEPCO's non-fukushima related business gets liquidated to highest bidder
2) That bidder takes over the Tokyo Electricity demands. Sendai and Tohoku's power which was under TEPCO should go to a second company.
3) TEPCO gets reorganized as the "Fukushima Cleanup Response" Company. All non-essentials are sacked, the presidents and boards are sacked, and all are replaced with specialists to deal with the cleanup, decontamination, and reconstruction.
4) Therefore, all debts to the State by TEPCO would be funded by their liquidity, and post-cleanup (40 years from now) sale of the land to the highest bidders for development. That land would be "rented" to companies or for condo development along the shores and in the high country, and that money would therefore go towards paying off the debt.
5) Bonds in Tohoku could be sold as well to help pay off debt.

Downsides to this plan:
1)After decontamination, I don't know anyone who would want to move back in. Marketing experts would have to implore the population to "return to your homeland," or give some big price cuts to a company who wants to build factories there.

2) Bonds sold would add to the regional debt, but that could be covered by disaster relief funds.

3) I don't know any investor or anyone in their right mind right now who would take over the non-Fukushima parts of TEPCO. I believe that if this was to be done correctly, they would spin off that section of TEPCO and re-nationalize it under a separate company, or have the Tokyo Metro Government take it over, and eventually privatize it to a second company. Another option is to have Kansai Power become a majority stakeholder and have regional companies become shareholders. This is not uncommon in Japan.


This looks like a good plan on paper but I have no physical way of presenting this to Japan lol I'm a mere student with one contact who actually knows people in Government. (My old nationalistic somewhat racist professor whom I often quoted)



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
I think you mean nationalize TEPCO

Yes, you are correct, that is what I meant.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 16):
TEPCO can't be privatized any more

What is confusing then is how the news reports speak of TEPCO as a separate entity. Of course, politically, it'd be easiest if there is this "separate" entity to be the whipping boy, but if it's nationalized, you are then only just whipping yourself. To me the idea of keeping the TEPCO name on the whole mess seems to be yet another form of denial, of trying to wish the problem away.

As to your post, I agree there needs to be an entity whose one and only job is dealing with Fukushima. I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on the idea that one could use the non-Fukushima parts of TEPCO to provide assets to help deal with Fukushima.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinezanl188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1753 times:
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Some of the pros of this plan that I've seen elsewhere:

- If seal is broken, the ice is self sealing as contaminated water attempts to escape.
- Due to excellent insulation properties of soil the ice remains for a considerable period of time once refrigeration is cut off - possibly up to a year.



Before refrigeration ice used to be cut from lakes in the winter time, packed in saw dust at the ice house, then sold in the summer time. Homes had "ice boxes", cooled by said ice, to cool beer milk, etc. Keeping ice from melting is an old technology...

Hoover Dam used refrigerated brine, for some years, to speed curing of concrete in the 30's. Not a new technology for construction industry...



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User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1713 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
What is confusing then is how the news reports speak of TEPCO as a separate entity. Of course, politically, it'd be easiest if there is this "separate" entity to be the whipping boy, but if it's nationalized, you are then only just whipping yourself. To me the idea of keeping the TEPCO name on the whole mess seems to be yet another form of denial, of trying to wish the problem away.

Well not "whipping" yourself....
When something is "nationalized" in Japan it does NOT directly take orders from PM Abe. It receives its funding from Abe and is subjected to one department....and that department head is PISSED. Mr. Motegi (dp head) said that he will bring TEPCO further under his control, and would most likely receive outside help brought in from PM Abe.

I'm not too sure what further details are there

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 18):
- If seal is broken, the ice is self sealing as contaminated water attempts to escape.

That probably would help fix earthquake damage too.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8181 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Nuking the site from orbit seems to be the only way to be sure...


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 20):
Nuking the site from orbit seems to be the only way to be sure...

.....can't they just criticality the site and have it self-nuke instead of wasting the money of sending a nuclear warhead from above?  


Aaaaaand make that 3 atomic bombings in japan   



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 18):
Hoover Dam used refrigerated brine, for some years, to speed curing of concrete in the 30's. Not a new technology for construction industry...

Yes, and before that, it was used in the Paris Metro to firm up soggy riverbanks whilst tunnels and stations were dug, all of which are still in service today.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
Well not "whipping" yourself....
When something is "nationalized" in Japan it does NOT directly take orders from PM Abe. It receives its funding from Abe and is subjected to one department....and that department head is PISSED. Mr. Motegi (dp head) said that he will bring TEPCO further under his control, and would most likely receive outside help brought in from PM Abe.

I would have expected to see some sort of quasi-governmental corporation set up much like we saw set up in the US to deal with failed banks. Instead you seem to be saying that the head of the Treasury Department would own failed banks, which is probably too much direct control for US political tastes. We seem to prefer to find some retired exec and have that person set up a corporation whose job it is to clean up failed institutions, and if that effort flounders, you just get rid of that CEO and find another person to fill the hot seat.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
Quoting zanl188 (Reply 18):
- If seal is broken, the ice is self sealing as contaminated water attempts to escape.

That probably would help fix earthquake damage too.

Personally I think it's going to take a lot of energy to keep 1.4 km of wall frozen to a depth of 40 meters, and that energy might not be available in the aftermath of a large earthquake.

However the bigger problem with an earthquake is all of those water storage tanks, which are already having problems with bad joints leaking.

It's a god-awful mess and the best thing for everyone would be for them to stop futzing around with band-aids and go for the cure.

The issue seems to be poor decision making, which IIRC is also one reason why the damage is so severe - no one would take the decision to vent the gasses inside the buildings so they blew up one by one. However I've heard conflicting reports that say they could not vent the buildings because the design presumed the diesel backup generators would be available to energize the control room and they were not.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinezanl188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1620 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
Personally I think it's going to take a lot of energy to keep 1.4 km of wall frozen to a depth of 40 meters, and that energy might not be available in the aftermath of a large earthquake.

Buried ice is going to last a while without power, months probably - possibly up to a year...



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User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 23):
Buried ice is going to last a while without power, months probably - possibly up to a year...

If this ice wall is really holding back lots of water, all it will take is some surface melting in a low-lying area.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinezanl188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1619 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
If this ice wall is really holding back lots of water, all it will take is some surface melting in a low-lying area.

They're not using ice to build a pool. We're talking about preventing ground water from moving in and out of the contaminated zone. System used at Oak Ridge still had ice a year after it was shut off....



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User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1597 times:

Well the good news about the debt issue in Japan- it's nationally owned....the "people" own the debt instead of foreign countries (eurozone crisis, American crisis) So they basically "HAVE" the money....just not in government...it's in the people....


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1527 times:

From the Olympic thread:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 34):
Well, it is TEPCO's fault and the government told TEPCO to shove it and will take over the cleanup from there.

From my perspective it's hard to say it's TEPCO's fault. The accident was caused by an earthquake, and the plant was licensed and regulated by the government. Maybe I'm prejudiced by the US model where the government is the ultimate insurer for the nuclear power industry so the government isn't that likely to point fingers at the utilities. In the case of Three Mile Island, President Carter visited the site days after the accident which symbolically showed that the government was going to be involved in the resolution of the crisis. However TMI was largely a man-made issue, with mechanical faults being compounded by human error driven by poor training and poor information presentation.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14060 posts, RR: 62
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1504 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
In the case of Three Mile Island, President Carter visited the site days after the accident which symbolically showed that the government was going to be involved in the resolution of the crisis.

Don´t forget that Carter was a nuclear engineer by profession, so he knew what he was looking at and it probably was quite difficult for the owners of TMI to BS him.

Jan


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